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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Has democracy failed ? |
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| BroHanif |
| 01/18/03 at 19:59:26 |
| Today there were thousands of people around the world marching in the streets peacefully, and united in the cause of no war on Iraq. Yet every elected politician in the world is or has sided with the US and UK. It appears that the peoples wishes are not heard, do you think the people who are opposing have got it wrong or has democracy and free elections failed ?. A couple of quotes from people around the world. taken from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2671891.stm Tens of thousands of people have joined demonstrations around the world to oppose any war in Iraq led by the United States and Britain. Here, they give some of their reasons for protesting: I hope that President Bush, who is acting like a cowboy, will recognise that an era of western films is over. Tomoharu Yamauchi, Tokyo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We believe that the vast majority of people in the United States don't want a war, they want money spent on education and human needs and not weapons of mass destruction. Tony Murphy, campaigner, Washington -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There's been too much capital invested in this war for it not to happen - but we're making our position clear. We're saying 'no'. Adam Conway, Shannon, Ireland -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sign your name on a suicide attack on U.S. interests, so we can fight an American attack along with Iraq. Crowds in Beirut -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The American is a coloniser who has come to cause destruction. Protesters in Bahrain, home to the US navy's Fifth Fleet and thousands of US military personnel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not really convinced that half of the American people want to invade Iraq. I think there is an eagerness to be patriotic... but there is confusion as to why. Richard Foster, Maryland -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The biggest threat to world peace is coming from Washington. Mara Verheyden-Hilliard, US protest organiser -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You cannot take a nation to war unless it is united, and there is massive opposition in Britain. Tony Benn, veteran UK politician, London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "We want to express our opposition to a war on Iraq. We want to join those who are demonstrating today all over the world. Suha Bayumi, Cairo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Iraq isn't your ranch, Mr Bush. Moscow banner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't impose war on Iraq. Farrukh Sohail Goindi, Lahore |
| NS |
| Re: Has democracy failed ? |
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| yunus |
| 01/26/03 at 01:02:54 |
| There is no democracy in America further more I dont believe in Democracy. The US system must be shut down because it is facist, racist, and imperialistic. I suggust that everyone read a book by noam chomsky called manufacturing consent democracy has no place in Isalm especially the pseduo democracy perpetrated by the US government. We must work peacefully to overthrow this artificial system and install a true system of governing as described in the Quran and the hadith. |
| Re: Has democracy failed ? |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 01/26/03 at 02:06:07 |
| Yunus that is an interesting thought, but except that not everyone here is a muslim. I like democracy and in fact I love it that we are a constitutional republic. |
| Re: Has democracy failed ? |
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| jannah |
| 01/26/03 at 03:31:10 |
| [quote]We must work peacefully to overthrow this artificial system and install a true system of governing as described in the Quran and the hadith.[/quote] umm that's totally not practical, and it's certainly not advocated by the Quran or the Hadith. do you remember the companions that migrated to Abyssinia? they were a minority in a non-muslim land. did they plan to overthrow the government and take over?? lasting change in any place must come from the people, in their hearts, no other change lasts. the only way we can work towards this is to try and educate the people, change how they think, change how the corrupt system works. i totally don't believe the US gov't is a true democracy, anyone can see that just by studying their 9th grade social studies book. we are living in a representative government where a certain group of people rule the land. and this group of people first of all are NOT representative of the average American. ie just look at their bank accounts. They are heavily influenced by a number of things, the least of which is probably their constituents' wishes. also to live in a true democracy each and every citizen must have access to accurate and true information and each and every citizen must be educated and knowledgable enough to come to a decision on the issue and thus vote on it freely. and each and every person's vote can then help the group come to a consensus on issues. now we know special interests rule most of our law makers. we also know most of the media has certain inherent biases. we also know that in times of war, when the 'war drums' have begun, most of our basic rights of the general freedoms so called 'guaranteed' to us in the constitution are limited or removed -- thus removing completely this idea of 'freedom' and 'democracy'. so where exactly is this true democracy? |
| Re: Has democracy failed ? |
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| yunus |
| 01/26/03 at 22:37:00 |
| There is no democarcy in the U$ what we have is represenatives who advocate on the behalf of corporations and special interest groups the vast majority of which dont care about "the common person" real change does not come through the ballot box but by God and this change has always manifested intself in peoples movement what we need in the country is a true peoples movement not just against the war but against this government for the injustice it inflicts on people here and abroad. The constitiution says that we have the right to overthrow the government when the do not live up to their promises of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness as far as i can see the governement has only made apparent these promises to a privleged group of people and has activly worked to squash the self determination of others here and abroad since its inception. America has always existed as an exploiter an imperialist country which works on the behest of the capitialists to maintain their status quo As being a minority (muslims) in America i do not necesarily think it is feasible to institute an Islamic state (or something that is right to do) but ceratianly there are nonviolent possiblities in working with other groups to institue a truly just system ("democracy" or otherwise) liberals think that if they fix the faults in the system the problems will go away the fallacy of this statment is that the system in the U$ itself is the problem and has always worked to exploit people for the rich examples of this are: the imperialistic tendencies of this country seen in the stealing of the natives land, the theft of northern mexico the phillipines cuba puerto rico hawai etc. Or the explotation of the slaves, the working class both home and aborad by U$ corporations. Peacefull means need to be exahusted in order insha Allah to bring true change to liberate people domestically and international from U$ explotation in the pursuit of global hegemony and economic imperialism May God forgive me for anything that i have said that is wrong |
| Re: Has democracy failed ? |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 01/27/03 at 00:24:27 |
| Yunus, i swear that is exactly the way I thought when I was in college, Then I got a job and boy do things change. |
| Re: Has democracy failed ? |
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| yunus |
| 01/27/03 at 07:56:41 |
| Whats the point of this disscussion board then we sit here and complain about the state of the world the palestinian israeli conflict the prespective war in Iraq bush etc Why dont people put their money where there mouth is and do something about these things instead of complaining on a message board. Further more I dont want to get a job that involves me working for some vile corporation trading my soul for materialistic greed. I would rather being an activist and make very little income so that i can activly try to enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil I would rather earn below the poverty line so i dont have to pay taxes to the governemnt and support what they do then have a lot of nice things I dont necesarily think that nonviolent revolution is that feasible unless there is a broad working class support but that does not mean that we should not try to work for a better system of governence Also what do u think that i said as far as our system is incorrect I suggest you take a look at a couple books The peoples history of the united $tates by howard Zinn and manufacturing consent by noam Chomsky |
| Re: Has democracy failed ? |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 01/27/03 at 10:36:58 |
| I have read several books by Noam Chomsky and many articles and have heard his interviews, maybe you could try reading Ayn Rand for another perspective on how governemnts should interact with its people. |
| Re: Has democracy failed ? |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 01/27/03 at 12:38:18 |
| Further more I dont want to get a job that involves me working for some vile corporation trading my soul for materialistic greed. I would rather being an activist and make very little income so that i can activly try to enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil I would rather earn below the poverty line so i dont have to pay taxes to the governemnt and support what they do then have a lot of nice things Yunus, Do not limit what God may or may not want you to do in life. No matter what you do it should be for the greater glory of God. I would think that many people on here work for "vile" corporations. Without bringing Jannah into this, but I would almost bet that she works for some corporation. But look at what she has produced, a place for muslims (and some of us interlopers) to learn from each other. I would bet if she was making no money this place would not exist. (this is an assumption, but I would think that at least part if not all of this board would be funded through her). While social activism can be a noble thing, but so is going to work and being productive and if God blesses you with wealth than be thankful for that blessing. Whats the point of this disscussion board then we sit here and complain about the state of the world the palestinian israeli conflict the prespective war in Iraq bush etc Why dont people put their money where there mouth is and do something about these things instead of complaining on a message board. How do you know what people are doing when they are not posting. There is so much to do in the world: the poor need to be fed, kids need to learn etc. etc. but none of this can be done unless wealth somewhere is created. I have had the privilidge to know some fairly wealthy people and they can do things to help people that I could only dream of doing. While they live much better than me I also know they do so much more than me in relieiving the needs of others. |
| Re: Has democracy failed ? |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 01/27/03 at 12:38:46 |
| Further more I dont want to get a job that involves me working for some vile corporation trading my soul for materialistic greed. I would rather being an activist and make very little income so that i can activly try to enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil I would rather earn below the poverty line so i dont have to pay taxes to the governemnt and support what they do then have a lot of nice things Yunus, Do not limit what God may or may not want you to do in life. No matter what you do it should be for the greater glory of God. I would think that many people on here work for "vile" corporations. Without bringing Jannah into this, but I would almost bet that she works for some corporation. But look at what she has produced, a place for muslims (and some of us interlopers) to learn from each other. I would bet if she was making no money this place would not exist. (this is an assumption, but I would think that at least part if not all of this board would be funded through her). While social activism can be a noble thing, but so is going to work and being productive and if God blesses you with wealth than be thankful for that blessing. Whats the point of this disscussion board then we sit here and complain about the state of the world the palestinian israeli conflict the prespective war in Iraq bush etc Why dont people put their money where there mouth is and do something about these things instead of complaining on a message board. How do you know what people are doing when they are not posting. There is so much to do in the world: the poor need to be fed, kids need to learn etc. etc. but none of this can be done unless wealth somewhere is created. I have had the privilidge to know some fairly wealthy people and they can do things to help people that I could only dream of doing. While they live much better than me I also know they do so much more than me in relieiving the needs of others. |
| Re: Has democracy failed ? |
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| sofia |
| 01/27/03 at 20:34:14 |
| As-salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullah, Brother Yunus, don't change your way of thinking. Unless you can make lots of loot and give it to the needy/masaajid. Since they need wealthy Muslims, too. Active Muslims are always good, but wealthy Muslims need to get their act together and start pooling their $ into the right channels, insha'Allah. Mike, my last point above is somewhat why I'd have to concur with you somewhat. And wasn't it Plato or someone, who denounced democracy as some evil sort of deception (not necessarily my opinion)? I can't remember who now, but someone who is usually credited for being one of the early "developers" of democratic thought. BroHanif, one of the protestors in DC had a sign that said: "This is all so crazy, I don't even know what to write on this poster..." I can't remember the rest. But it's probably how most Americans are feeling right now. Speechless, appalled, etc. SubhanAllah, the 1/18 rally was one of the largest (easily 300,000+) *and* the quietest rallies I've been to (normally, there's a lot of yelling and what not), now that I think of it. |
| 01/27/03 at 20:49:41 |
| sofia |
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