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Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates

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Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
sabri
02/01/03 at 10:24:22
[slm]

CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. - Space shuttle Columbia apparently disintegrated in flames over Texas on Saturday minutes before it was to land in Florida. TV video showed what appeared to be falling debris, as NASA declared an emergency and warned residents to beware of falling objects.

Six Americans and Israel's first astronaut were on board.


In north Texas, people reported hearing "a big bang" at about 9 a.m., the same time all radio and data communication with the shuttle was lost.


Television stations showed what appeared to be flaming debris falling through the sky, and NASA warned Texas residents to beware of any falling objects. NASA also announced that search and rescue teams were being mobilized in the Dallas and Fort Worth areas.


Inside Mission Control, flight controllers hovered in front of their computers, staring at the screens. The wives, husbands and children of the astronauts who had been waiting at the landing strip were gathered together by NASA and taken to secluded place.


"A contingency for the space shuttle has been declared," Mission Control repeated over and over as no word or any data came from Columbia.


In 42 years of U.S. human space flight, there had never been an accident during the descent to Earth or landing. On Jan. 28, 1986, space shuttle Challenger exploded shortly after liftoff.


On Jan. 16, shortly after Columbia lifted off, a piece of insulating foam on its external fuel tank came off and was believed to have struck the left wing of the shuttle. Leroy Cain, the lead flight director in Mission Control, assured reporters Friday that engineers had concluded that any damage to the wing was considered minor and posed no safety hazard.


Columbia had been aiming for a landing at 9:16 a.m. Saturday.


It was at an altitude of 207,000 feet over north-central Texas at a 9 a.m., traveling at 12,500 mph when Mission Control lost contact and tracking data.


Gary Hunziker in Plano said he saw the shuttle flying overhead. "I could see two bright objects flying off each side of it," he told The Associated Press. "I just assumed they were chase jets."


"I was getting ready to go out and I heard a big bang and the windows shook in the house," Ferolito told The AP. "I thought it was a sonic boom."


Security had been tight for the 16-day scientific research mission because of the presence of Ilan Ramon, the first Israeli astronaut.


Ramon, a colonel in Israel's air force and former fighter pilot, became the first man from his country to fly in space, and his presence resulted in an increase in security, not only for Columbia's launch, but also for its planned landing. Space agency officials feared his presence might make the shuttle more of a terrorist target.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's office said it had no immediate comment.

[wlm]
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
BroHanif
02/01/03 at 12:48:00
What is a bit of a coincidence...is that the first space shuttle that blew up there was also a Jewish astronout aboard, and sadly its happened again.

NS
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Kathy
02/02/03 at 12:51:35
[slm]

The news I was watching was trying to tie in terrorist plans to the tragedy... wow... the press.... they will do anything to get a story....
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
zomorrud
02/02/03 at 22:11:12
[color=blue]bismillah..
assalamu alaikum,

[quote]
The news I was watching was trying to tie in terrorist plans to the tragedy[/quote]

linear thinking ... the stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

[/color]
02/02/03 at 22:11:58
zomorrud
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Dawn
02/03/03 at 06:53:26
[slm]
[quote author=Kathy link=board=ummah;num=1044113062;start=0#2 date=02/02/03 at 12:51:35] The news I was watching was trying to tie in terrorist plans to the tragedy... wow... the press.... they will do anything to get a story....[/quote]  Really?  The news over here, that I have seen/read anyway, hasn't even mentioned terrorism in connection with the incident.   They really [i]are[/i] desperate for a story over there!
02/03/03 at 06:54:16
Dawn
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
M.F.
02/03/03 at 09:45:44
Just the fact that they say "there are no apparent ties to any terrorist activity" and the fact that they start analyzing WHY there could be no ties creates a mental tie right there.
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
ltcorpest2
02/03/03 at 10:15:46
i am sorry, but i watched more than a few hours of coverage and i heard nothing  of anything mentioning anything about terrorism by anyone.  maybe one peron locally somewhere said it is a possibility.
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Muneerah134
02/03/03 at 15:32:37
[slm]
Watched off and on, both local and national,  "there was no apparent evidence of terrorist activity" etc.  I heard it clearly, wish I had made sure to note who. Only have to say that to create a link.

I heard someone on national news last week mention the New York attack, and the embassy attacks in Africa with Oklahoma City.  This stuff sticks in people's minds.
:-) Muneerah  []
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Kathy
02/04/03 at 11:37:01
[quote author=mike aka ltcorpest2 link=board=ummah;num=1044113062;start=0#6 date=02/03/03 at 10:15:46]i am sorry, but i watched more than a few hours of coverage and i heard nothing  of anything mentioning anything about terrorism by anyone.  maybe one peron locally somewhere said it is a possibility.[/quote]

tsk tsk tsk..... Chris... I am not the kind of person that sensationalizes..

CBS, NBC, ABC - I was flipping between the channels- the first hours the news came on about this incident. Hmmm... need exact times? As I was getting ready to go to the Dawah Center between 9am-9:30.

They even had a military specialist come on and say that only America has antiaircraft missles possibly capable of this and went into detail enough about the technology of this kind of machine.
02/04/03 at 11:39:44
Kathy
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
ltcorpest2
02/04/03 at 12:31:24
Posted by: Kathy Posted on: Today at 11:37am
on Feb 3rd, 2003, 10:15am, mike aka ltcorpest2 wrote:i am sorry, but i watched more than a few hours of coverage and i heard nothing  of anything mentioning anything about terrorism by anyone.  maybe one peron locally somewhere said it is a possibility.  



tsk tsk tsk..... Chris... I am not the kind of person that sensationalizes..


this is so sad,  Betty er i mean  Kathy.   I put my 1st name Mike on my screen name because of you and you call me ...Chris
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Dude
02/04/03 at 12:50:58
I agree with Chris, Betty and most everyone else ;). I'm no rocket scientist (just one or two credits short there), but I'm pretty sure Osame doesn't have the capabilities of putting a man on the moon, armed with an anti-aircraft missile that would be able to catch the space shuttle.

Of course, I've heard they're doing some amazing things in those caves...

Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
jannah
02/04/03 at 23:52:26
salam,

it's just sad... anyone around when challenger blew up. i remember that being such an awful day in school. how sad for the families.. like only minutes before they were to be home...

--------------------------------------------------------------------



In a letter addressed to NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe,
MAS President Souheil Ghannouchi wrote:

"It is with deep sorrow and regret that we all witnessed the
tragic disintegration of the space shuttle Columbia. The
Muslim community shares the great values of research,
discovery and the courage NASA and its unrelenting teams of
engineers, scientists and scholars have shown over the
years.

"We would like to send our deepest heartfelt condolences to
every and each family of our courageous astronauts. As
American Muslims, we stand in solidarity with and support
for these families in any way possible. We would appreciate
your forwarding of this message to these families, as we all
mourn this grave loss. Islam cherishes the value of any and
all humans as creatures of God Almighty.

"We hope and pray for NASA to recover quickly and continue
its mission for the sake of a better future for all."

Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Kathy
02/05/03 at 08:49:21
[quote author=mike aka ltcorpest2 link=board=ummah;num=1044113062;start=0#9 date=02/04/03 at 12:31:24]
this is so sad,  Betty er i mean  Kathy.   I put my 1st name Mike on my screen name because of you and you call me ...Chris[/quote]

Ah! my apologies!  :PI have no idea why I wrote Chris! I think the ravages of old age are beginning to rampage![i] I  would've IM you, but felt a public apology was better suited.[/i]

Curiously, how did I influence you?
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Mujahideen
02/05/03 at 13:06:33
[slm]
[quote author=Uncle Hanif link=board=ummah;num=1044113062;start=0#1 date=02/01/03 at 12:48:00]What is a bit of a coincidence...is that the first space shuttle that blew up there was also a Jewish astronout aboard, and sadly its happened again.

[/quote]

     Ummm do you actually think that the fact a person of Jewish decent was on board is relevant to the crash! Seriously? ???

[wlm]
NS
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Maliha
02/05/03 at 14:12:26
[quote author=Mujahideen link=board=ummah;num=1044113062;start=0#13 date=02/05/03 at 13:06:33] [slm]

     Ummm do you actually think that the fact a person of Jewish decent was on board is relevant to the crash! Seriously? ???

[wlm] [/quote]

[slm]

Here's a little synopsis of the "person with Jewish descent"...this man represented all that Israel is and has been. You can get much more of his gory details by simply typing his name on a google search....Did anyone catch that some debris fell on a town/city called Palestine in Texas? It really got me thinking...coincidence? a sign? Allahu A3lam.

[i]
Israeli astronaut Col. Ilan Ramon, in addition to bombing Iraq's Osirak nuclear power plant in 1981, also took part in Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon. A general overview of this military campaign can be found at Bloody Quagmire in Lebanon. Much more detail can be found at Lebanon 1982: The Imbalance Of Political Ends And Military Means, by Major M. Thomas Davis, U.S. Army. One of the most notorious episodes in this war was the massacre at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps by Israeli-backed Christian militias (less well-known is what Syrian-backed Shi'i militias did later at Sabra and Shatila).
[/i]

Sis,
Maliha
[wlm]

NS
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Mujahideen
02/05/03 at 15:18:20
[slm]
Yes well that may very well be trua but that’s not quite the point I am trying to make. I don’t think Muslims should run around implying the past two shuttle crashes are related to the fact that Jews were on board each time.

     Quite simply put - what is the evidence for this supposition?
     He was a Jew
     He allegedly committed atrocities
     He was killed when the shuttle burnt up on re-entry
     Some debris fell on a town called Palestine
There was also a Jew on the Challenger

     What precisely does that prove?
Shuttles crash when Jews are on board?
The Jews brought down both the challenger and the Columbia?

     That’s like what that one Brother said in the UK the shuttle crash was “a punishment from God" because it carried Americans, Indian–born Hindu astronaut Kalpana Chawla and Ilan Ramon, the first Israeli in space – a 'trinity of evil".

     I always find it interesting why people who hate the proverbial west so much immigrate here and then rail about how bad it is, how much they hate it, how wherever they came from is so much better – you sort of wonder why they came in the first place? Do they really believe what they are saying or do they feel guilty for abandoning their own people in their homelands. They certainly are doing nothing good in terms of Dawah – making public comments like that are like anti-dawah. People read things like that in the Guardian and think all Muslims think that and 'man they are a bunch of simpletons'.
     
[wlm]
     
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Dude
02/05/03 at 17:55:11
[quote]I always find it interesting why people who hate the proverbial west so much immigrate here and then rail about how bad it is, how much they hate it, how wherever they came from is so much better – you sort of wonder why they came in the first place? Do they really believe what they are saying or do they feel guilty for abandoning their own people in their homelands. They certainly are doing nothing good in terms of Dawah – making public comments like that are like anti-dawah. People read things like that in the Guardian and think all Muslims think that and 'man they are a bunch of simpletons'.[/quote]

Three words for that post, especially the quoted section: tre-men-dous! That's a point I bring up quite often to friends through soccer who often complain about our government, and how "fascist" it is. Yeah, we have an idiot running the show, but fascist? Not quite::). Often, they are second generation (meaning, their parents were born in the homeland, but they were born in Canada). Typically (and ironically), my Croatian & Slovakian buddies are the most vocal and consistent whiners.

I've read and heard similar sentiments come out of the Muslim community, that the shuttle crash was a punishment from Allah because of its passengers. That's nearly as absurd as football players who pray for victory before a big game.

[quote]In a letter addressed to NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe,
MAS President Souheil Ghannouchi wrote:

"It is with deep sorrow and regret that we all witnessed the
tragic disintegration of the space shuttle Columbia. The
Muslim community shares the great values of research,
discovery and the courage NASA and its unrelenting teams of
engineers, scientists and scholars have shown over the
years.

"We would like to send our deepest heartfelt condolences to
every and each family of our courageous astronauts. As
American Muslims, we stand in solidarity with and support
for these families in any way possible. We would appreciate
your forwarding of this message to these families, as we all
mourn this grave loss. Islam cherishes the value of any and
all humans as creatures of God Almighty.

"We hope and pray for NASA to recover quickly and continue
its mission for the sake of a better future for all." [/quote]

Very appropriate, and all class.
02/05/03 at 18:02:11
Dude
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
BroHanif
02/05/03 at 18:13:51
[quote]I don’t think Muslims should run around implying the past two shuttle crashes are related to the fact that Jews were on board each time.  

[/quote]
salaams bro, its just  a statement about the incident that took place. Nothing more, and yes Iagree with you about the brother making the space shuttle statements, I thought to myself why ?.  Allah knows best.

salaams
Hanif
NS
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Caraj
02/05/03 at 20:31:07
Hi Everyone,

Some food for thought. Not to offend and not to imply, just food for thought.    :-[  This is also something Jannah herself a while back made comment to on the old board.

How do you want your beliefs (Islam) represented???

When someone types in www.jannah.org the first page is one of welcome and talks about peace and mercy correct ? So then you get in here and see things that are anti-American or putting the government down (which I might add if you're over 18 are free to leave if its that bad.)  And now this Columbia thing saying cause an Israeli was on it and an Indian and the US that maybe Allah did this.

Now figure the many people who come to this site to learn what Islam is really all about. I know myself have on numerous occations refered this site to people and told people learn about Islam through Muslims not non-Mulims.

Are these comments the kind of light you want to shine on your beliefs?

Don't get me wrong, we all have a right to our opinions and Jannah is quite careful to monitor these things. That is also why many different boards, sisters, brothers and politics, etc.

My sincere hearts advice is be careful what you say and before you click the post button ask yourselves, If Muhammad or Allah himself was right there beside you, would this be something that would be pleasing to them?

Also is this what you want a total stranger with an open heart who is just visiting Medina for the first time to read and think of Muslims and Islam?

How many people do you turn away when they see... The Columbia accident was cause of Allah or his punishment on other cultures, races,
and How the US is to fault for everything. I took the time to get to know you all but some may not and what is the first post you'd like them to read?
Ya'all are intitled to your opinions I am just suggesting they be said in a more ????? Can't think of the right word?
hmmm(sigh) In a more different manor.

I don't believe God/Allah caused the Columbia accident.
I don't believe everything on earth is the US's fault.
I don't believe all Muslims are terriorist
And I don't believe if something bad happens God/Allah caused it.
And finally I don't think everything bad that happens are caused by terriorist.

Just my thoughts
Just what was on my heart to say
02/05/03 at 20:35:42
Caraj
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
jannah
02/05/03 at 23:11:20
Bravo CaraJ . Beautiful message. Exactly what I was thinking while reading this thread!! However i never know whether to say anything or not or if it's just me that feels these things. :(

Anyway, the space shuttle accident is definitely a tragic incident. Let's pass on our sympathies and use this occasion to highlight the value of life and the value of coming together as human beings who have lives, families, loves. These are universal principles that can bring us together, instead of blaming each other and causing more disharmony.

Also I don't think we should be so sure with our opinions on "God's plan". Perhaps the space shuttle is really a test for us to see how we react and will end up being a cause for OUR punishment for some of our future actions. Allahu alam. God knows best. Before passing judgement on others and why things happen to them, let's pass judgement on ourselves. Each individual should take account for their own actions first.  We should continue worshipping and following God's guidance to the best of our abilities. Sometimes I think we speculate so much and grasp at straws to give ourselves excuses for justifying our self-styled behavior.
02/06/03 at 01:14:49
jannah
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Sabr
02/06/03 at 09:02:37
[slm]

Its interesting to read all these comments .....however we must remember that nothing happens without the permission of allah . Allah says in sura 55(Rahaman) verse 33-

"O Assembly of jinns and men! If you can penetrate regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate them! But you will never penetrate them save with the Power (from Allah)"

wassalam
Sis sabr

02/06/03 at 09:06:46
Sabr
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Dude
02/07/03 at 00:02:59
I have to agree (and commend) Caraj on her post. Jannah is a vet, and usually pens some thoughtful posts as well, but Caraj should be congratulated.

I am one of those who originally logged in to learn more about Islam, and I find myself, more often than not, getting into heated arguments with others about their philosophies and beliefs that seem very anti-Islamic to me.

I think that anyone who truly believes the Challenger disaster occurred as some sort of “sign from Allah” is not only completely blind to the current culture of the Muslim faith (decidedly anti-American), but incapable of having free and independent thought. I look at astronauts as true heroes…explorers whom have the passion, strength, and courage to dedicate their lives to an endeavor that most would shun for the mere impossibility of the task. The training and preparation- along with high chances of being eliminated from contention- required for these projects alone is something to beheld. The actually be selected, and participate, means you have internal drive that is simply uncommon among the average person.  

It was a sad day when the Challenger went down. It is sad that some take the opportunity to try and make a political or religious point of it.
02/07/03 at 00:03:56
Dude
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Maliha
02/07/03 at 11:07:04
[slm]
[quote author=Mujahideen link=board=ummah;num=1044113062;start=15#15 date=02/05/03 at 15:18:20]

     What precisely does that prove?
Shuttles crash when Jews are on board?
The Jews brought down both the challenger and the Columbia?

[/quote]
I don't think anyone said that...I seriously was surprised to see the debris falling on a place called Palestine. I know its not a big deal, it has nothing to do with anything..but it just struck me as peculiar. The astronauts are indeed awesome, but you made it sound like he was just another guy...and he wasn't..he does have a past, and I wanted to bring it up. I am not judging and Allah knows best.


[quote]
That’s like what that one Brother said in the UK the shuttle crash was “a punishment from God" because it carried Americans, Indian–born Hindu astronaut Kalpana Chawla and Ilan Ramon, the first Israeli in space – a 'trinity of evil".
[/quote]

I don't think anyone in their right mind would say this....

[quote]
     I always find it interesting why people who hate the proverbial west so much immigrate here and then rail about how bad it is, how much they hate it, how wherever they came from is so much better – you sort of wonder why they came in the first place?
[/quote]
You know I am really getting sick of this Immigrant bashing. I mean there are people born in America/UK etc that speak out against these places, what does that make them? Anti Patriotic? As a Muslim first, I feel like its my responsibility to point out injustices anywhere in the world. And yes the West is not immune to it. I am an "immigrant", I came here, really cuz my family moved here..but anyhow, there are many positive aspects here and there are definitely negative ones. Who says as a contributing citizen, I can not talk about it???? why? You make it sound like we should be these eternally grateful submissive people that are just glad to have scrapes of the american pie thrown at them. Puh Lease!!!!

[quote]
They certainly are doing nothing good in terms of Dawah
[/quote]
Says who? I know many "immigrants" that are in all fields making a whole lot of difference in their communities and work places, so please don't tarnish everyone with the same brush.

Sis,
Maliha
[wlm]
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
BrKhalid
02/07/03 at 12:12:19
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

I just wanted to clarify something that Cara said:

[quote]And I don't believe if something bad happens God/Allah caused it[/quote]

As Muslims we believe that whatever happens on this Earth happens with the knowledge and the permission of Allah:

With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read).[6:59]

But it’s one thing to say Allah has knowledge of an event and completely another to say Allah actually *caused* the event.

Allah, in his infinite wisdom, knows best about the events of last Saturday. He knows why it happened and what caused it to happen.

We (be it Muslim or non Muslim) are simply not qualified to judge on matters we have no knowledge on.



Moving on, this thread also got me thinking about the way people view death. It seems to me people equate death with something bad and sometimes even as a punishment.

Sure if a criminal is found guilty and sentenced to death, then this is an obvious punishment and he pays for his crime via the loss of his life.

But what about those people who just die normally? Is their death a punishment too?

As Muslims we believe that death is one step nearer to Allah and one step nearer to Paradise. We leave this world [dunya] behind and look forward to the bounties promised to us by our Lord for the good we have endeavored to do in this world.

Far from being a punishment, Muslims regard death as a blessing.

What *is* a punishment, however, is the pain one suffers when we die. Allah says:

And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah, or says: It has been revealed to me; while nothing has been revealed to him, and he who says: I can reveal the like of what Allah has revealed? [color=Red]and if you had seen when the unjust shall be in the agonies of death and the angels shall spread forth their hands: Give up your souls; today shall you be recompensed with an ignominious chastisement because you spoke against Allah other than the truth and (because) you showed pride against His communications.[/color][6:93]

This is the reason why as Muslims we seek refuge from Allah from dying with unbelief and ask for His protection at the time of death.

Only Allah knows how much someone suffers at the time of his death and, indeed, if they have been unjust in this world, we can comfort ourselves in the knowledge that Allah will take retribution in the Hereafter which starts with the agonies of death.


Just a couple of points I wanted to share.

Wasalaam
Br Khalid
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Caraj
02/07/03 at 12:37:52
Maliha... Yes some say this just read the above posts again and listen to the news. some say the Allah caused it thing, but not all.

And BrKhalid.... thank you thank you thank you,   :)
Anyone notice the words... Allah 'knows' and Allah 'allows' 'gives permission'

not Allah caused.... come on people God/Allah is not in the murder business.

And Maliha no one is immigrant bashing,
Was just a statement of that ones feelings and done tastefully not in a mean way, or thats what I got out of it when I read it.

just the other day my aunt and I got into a heated discussion. She accused me os US bashing... Me!!!!!

Because she is a 'go get um Bush' type person and I am a 'Whoa there must be another way, lets chill here and think about this'
Well needless to say I am keeping my opinions to myself which is ashame cause I am in my own home but she makes no bones to put me in my place if she doesn't agree so I don't say anything now.

I am not an immigrant but boy did I get chewed out.

02/07/03 at 12:40:13
Caraj
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
ascetic
02/07/03 at 19:28:54
Not directly related to the thread but wanted to add to sthg that BrKhalid mentioned about the pains of death:

When the Prophet (SAW) was in the throes of death and the angel of death appeared, he asked whether other people in his Ummah would suffer the agony he was in. The reply was that the pangs of death for Muhammad (SAW) were reduced because he was a Prophet! So the Prophet replied, then let it be worse for me and make it easier for my Ummah! Wow .. Allahumma salli a'la sayidina muhammed.

[wlm]
02/07/03 at 19:29:48
ascetic
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
BroHanif
02/08/03 at 03:25:30
[slm]

[quote]I think that anyone who truly believes the Challenger disaster occurred as some sort of “sign from Allah” is not only completely blind to the current culture of the Muslim faith (decidedly anti-American), [/quote]

Dude, are you saying the the Muslim faith is now anti-American ? Surely not.  However, just a couple of things I wanted to say...

Just think week hawkish Mr Powell presented his evidence to the UN about the WMD in Iraq, he went to great lengths to associate Iraq as being the flounders of International Justice. Yet he made it clear that there was no clear smoking gun in Iraq, yet.

Above all he even made a reference to a British dossier that the press have just found out that it was copied from somebody in California and wouldn't even stand up in the court of law. The Iraqis allowed visits to the so called sites that Mr Powell said were WMD yet what did we find nothing that supported his claim, the same happened to Britain's claim when a site was searched no smoking gun was revealed.
So to me the US/UK wants to declare war on some nation on evidence that is perhaps at the most questionable. Are we ready to send thousands upon thousands of innocents to their deaths ?

After the attacks of Sept 11th, the FBI began foaming at the mouth like a mad dog and began to arrest several thousand MUSLIM men and women, no other group was targeted.  Places of worship have been bugged, telephone and email has been intercepted and Muslims have had visits from gung ho FBI. Some brothers are still awaiting trial and have had little legal representation. Again because we are Muslims.

The dossier that gave grounds that it was Al-Qaeeda that attacked the twin towers again fabricated. How the hell can you find somebody's passport several blocks away when it is complete is beyond me, was the evidence placed to again lay blame on Muslims ? wouldn't surprise me.
Lets go to Afghanistan, much was said about the Taliban and Al-Qaeeda that they were the culprits behind 9/11 but where was the evidence, again it wouldn't stand up in a court of law. The reason for attacking Afghanistan may have been an economic one perhaps to make it easier for oil drilling.

The brothers held at camp x ray again if they are guilty try them, but does it take so long to try a person ? Or have hey realised that there is nothing to try them against ? So who's at the camp again, Muslims.

The recent attempt by America to question people at the airports and ports of entry of people only coming in from the Mid East, Pakistan, Indonesia, why because your a Muslim.

The attempt to stop all funds of Muslim charity's in the occupied lands by America saying they are financing terrorists. Again why are they stopping this, don't you get it, because your a Muslim.

So when people on this board talk about the issues that I've said from attacking Iraq and Afghanistan to being strip searched at the airport they are again brushed as being Anti-American. Who's started this witch hunt and who's the racist ?.

Salaams

Hanif


NS
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
ltcorpest2
02/08/03 at 20:01:09
Hanif,

I hope I do not step on any toes, but some of the comments on your last post is why the American pubplic will being having a tough time with Muslims.  The reason why the FBI arrested  and detained muslims after 911 is because it was muslims who did it, not because people are muslims.  Just as when there were problems  such as Waco, Ruby Ridge and the Oklahoma City bombing (even though Tim Mcveigh wasa professed athiest he did have connections with many right wing groups)the FBI targeted Christian churches and I feel that they should have because there was obviously a problem.  Why would another group be targeted after Al Qaeda attacked  the world trade center?  It is not because there are muslims but because people who professed to be muslims were the people who did it .  
    The brothers held in camp Xray are combatants,  and when there is a truce or some negotiations with the proper organizations come about they will be  released just like any prisoner of war.  But I think the US has a responsiblity to its citizens like any other country at war not to release your enemies until there is a degree of satisfaction that they will not be joining in the fight again.

As to who started this witch hunt you can  blame UBL and not America.  There were never any searches at airports or being questioned about being from a middle eastern or muslims country until 911.  We were attacked twice at US embassies, twice at the World trade center and our pentagon and the shoe bomber was trying to blow up another plane and i guess we could throw in the Lockerbie incident as well.  From UBL tapes we know his and his groups agenda.  I am sad that it has involved many innocent lives of muslims who wish to come to America and who are here.  
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
UmmWafi
02/08/03 at 21:16:06
Thank you for the reply Mike :)

Although I can debate on some factual inaccuracies in your post, I do appreciate the style u wrote with, so have a Bibsi on me  []

At the end of the day, the harrassment on innocent lives extend waayyy beyond the American boundaries.  I get harrassed at Immigration checkpoints all the time, even at my own country's by my own people. Ah well.

For everyone,

This maybe slightly off topic but well, I thought it would do us good to remember some things.

When Allah SWT commanded Iblis to bow to Nabi Adam AS, he refused saying that Nabi was of earth and he is of fire therefore he is far superior.  My Prof explained why Iblis was dead wrong in all counts.

Fire consumes.  Anything that is thrown into it will be burnt and consumed whereas earth produces and reproduces.  Fire indicates death whereas earth indicates life.  Thus, as the descendents of Nabi Adam, our fitrah is to produce not extinguish.  This includes feeling of goodwill and love.  We have to produce goodwill and love, we cannot end them.  We are not of fire.  We are of earth.  We should love, not hate.

Fire cannot destroy earth.  If you put earth into fire, sure the earth will be blackened, but the properties change and it becomes stronger.  That is why in the olden days when houses are made not of cement, they burn the earth first to make it harder.  However, earth can extinguish fire.  Ever go backpacking and built a campfire ? In the morning when u wanna extinguish the fire what do u do ? Put earth over it :)  We are of earth, we have the ability to extinguish the whisperings of Iblis and his cohorts if we only stay true to faith.  With our strength we can keep Iblis and his army at bay and even destroy them.  We can overpower and overcome.

Last but not least, fire is embedded deep in earth....so be careful brothers and sisters.  The evilness of Iblis is always shadowing us, waiting to strike.  It can be triggered by the simplest of things like misunderstanding what is said and so on.  Best defence is to Istighfar all the time.  

Aight, I am outta here.

Wassalam.
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
bhaloo
02/09/03 at 01:05:59
[slm]

I was very surprised at Mike's post,  as it displays a complete misunderstanding of the events that took place.  I don't know if he is doing this on purpose to harass and upset Muslim, as the issues have been explained to him over and over again.  

[quote]
The reason why the FBI arrested  and detained muslims after 911 is because it was muslims who did it, not because people are muslims
[/quote]

Do you have any proof for this?  Other then some baseless accusations?  ???  I haven't followed things for a while, but I've never heard Osama Bin Laddin taking responsibility for it, and proof for this was shown to you numerous times, and I don't remember you ever objecting to this.   For all we know this act could have been done by the US or Israel, so its best not to speculate.  Everyone has their own theories, lets see some facts.

[quote]
Just as when there were problems  such as Waco, Ruby Ridge and the Oklahoma City bombing (even though Tim Mcveigh wasa professed athiest he did have connections with many right wing groups)the FBI targeted Christian churches and I feel that they should have because there was obviously a problem.
[/quote]

According to this article McVeigh was born a Christian.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/mcveigh/terror_4.html?sect=1

I haven't heard about Christian churches being targeted, how come every church wasn't targetted and Christians rounded up and thrown into jail, like what is happening to Muslims? Doesn't it seem hypocritical to you?  Were you questioned by the FBI, like I was?

[quote]
It is not because there are muslims but because people who professed to be muslims were the people who did it .  
[/quote]

If the US stopped bombing, and killing other people in foreign lands and just stay out of other people's countries, we'll have world peace.  

[quote]
The brothers held in camp Xray are combatants,  and when there is a truce or some negotiations with the proper organizations come about they will be  released just like any prisoner of war.  But I think the US has a responsiblity to its citizens like any other country at war not to release your enemies until there is a degree of satisfaction that they will not be joining in the fight again.
[/quote]

May Allah (SWT) grant the brothers held in camp Xray with paradise. AMEEN.  I was reading here or maybe it was somewhere else how there was no proof for the people being held.  

[quote]
As to who started this witch hunt you can  blame UBL and not America.  There were never any searches at airports or being questioned about being from a middle eastern or muslims country until 911.  We were attacked twice at US embassies, twice at the World trade center and our pentagon and the shoe bomber was trying to blow up another plane and i guess we could throw in the Lockerbie incident as well.  From UBL tapes we know his and his groups agenda.  I am sad that it has involved many innocent lives of muslims who wish to come to America and who are here.
[/quote]

This witch hunt is the fault of America.  If they stopped bombing and attacking other countries and stealing their oil and other resources, there wouldn't be problems in the world.  There was a good article I posted explaining this here, where Gore Vidal was interviewed and said America brought this upon themselves, its a very interesting read:

http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=ummah;action=display;num=1044714651

As for OBL's agenda, from what I have watched on the news, he wants America out of Saudi Arabia, and the middle east.  And all Muslims want that, for America to stay out of their countries and not to bomb them or kill them.  Is that too much to ask for? ???
02/09/03 at 01:24:08
jannah
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
ltcorpest2
02/09/03 at 10:39:05
Bhaloo

The fact that UBL didnt take responsibility has nothing to do with the fact of him and his orgainization being responsible.  I would like to hear from a couple of muslims just say that he and his organization was behind it.  I am not here to argue about that, but knowing that no muslims or most muslims or some some muslims think this way will guide my thinking on how i want my government to react.  I am  not going  to argue whether he did it or not,  you can believe any way you want to.  But,  I if I hear what I am hearing that no muslims think that him or his organization are behind these actions then my thinking about muslims will be accordingly.  My post has nothing to do with upsetting muslims.  It is giving a different viewpoint.  thinking that UBL was behind the attacks should not be upsetting,  I do not blame muslims or their faith for this.

 Also,  Tim Mcveigh was not born a Christian,  that is impossible becasue nobody can be born a Christian ifyou have any understanding of the Christian faith.
 
 You haven't heard of Christian churches  being targetted probably because it wasn't important to you.  The pastor of my church was interviewed after The Oklahoma City bombing and we  are in California.  They regularly infiltrate the aryan nation and other goofball  churches and organzations as well they should.
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Dude
02/09/03 at 12:47:42
Hanif,

Relax Simba.

At no point did I bring up the word “racist”. If anything, I may have implied many in the Muslim world is decidedly prejudice against ALL things American (unfortunately, that often includes Canadians too). Likewise, it seems most of America is decidedly prejudice against all things Muslim.

There are HUGE differences in meanings between the words “racist” and “prejudice”, and I’m pretty careful not to make that leap.

Prejudism is mainly spawned from a lack of education. Both sides are victims of media skewing.

Bhaloo: do you actually believe that the 911 attacks weren’t engineered by OBL and his wacky friends? You can’t be serious? Besides, I’m pretty certain OBL DID take responsibility in one of his many video tape releases to the press, but then, I haven’t been following much of your apparent attempts to convince us all of otherwise. Just for giggles, who DO you think was responsible for 911- the IRA? Pilot(s) error?

I tend to be pretty black & white on the motives of American treatment of Muslims, like Mike is. It is because Muslims did it, not because they are Muslims. I think that if any other “group” had taken responsibility, that group would receive the same treatment. Before anyone starts jumping all over me, I’m not saying here that much of the treatment was / is justified…just why.

[quote]If the US stopped bombing, and killing other people in foreign lands and just stay out of other people's countries, we'll have world peace. [/quote]

By stating this, it appears that you justify events of 911. Say it ain't so Bhaloo...say it ain't so! :o
02/09/03 at 12:51:57
Dude
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Caraj
02/09/03 at 13:11:24
[quote author=bhaloo link=board=ummah;num=1044113062;start=15#29 date=02/09/03 at 01:05:59][slm]

If the US stopped bombing, and killing other people in foreign lands and just stay out of other people's countries, we'll have world peace.  

This witch hunt is the fault of America.  If they stopped bombing and attacking other countries and stealing their oil and other resources, there wouldn't be problems in the world.  ?[/quote]

I don't mean this the way this is going to come out, it is with a sincere heart I say it to bring thought, here goes.

bhaloo does this go for Pakistan and India???
How about the African tribe that try to eliminate each other?
And the native American tribes that tried to kill each other (long before white men came) Or can you or anyone else find a way to make this too  look like the US's fault?

Stealing resourses? My gosh do you have any idea how many business I know that went belly up cause of the fair trade stuff.

As for oil I wish to heck people in my country would take a stand and have the government have other oil alternatives and there is oil in Texas, Oklahoma and Alaska, and I hear other places.
I would gladly go back to horses if our government would stop buying oil from other countries.

Again, if someone is in www.jannah.org  for the first time and they have an open and sincere heart to learn about Islam and read this post???
This 'America is the fault of everything attitude" does nothing but cast doubts and shadows on Islam.

Bhaloo, I don't want to offend you nor be hateful, I say this next thing with a most sincere heart, you have no idea how sincere and this is not to put you down it is to bring thought to your heart and mind.
Do you have any idea the number of times yours and a few others posts that have made me come very close to canceling my citizenship in medina and not coming back? Many. Because I get so tired of being told how bad and stupid we are an how we are to blame for the sky being blue. I get it from here on this web site and now because I don't agree totally with my country I am getting it on the other end from my family.

::) Why does everyone always think they are right ???   ::)

I worry how many people I refered here read all the anti American posts and clicked off and never came back and never got to know the good things here. Sometimes I don't know if some of you realize how you're coming across and how it may make people feel justified on how they feel about Muslims.

And Mike is so right, maybe cause it didn't effect you directly that you didn't pay attention, but Christianity is scrutinized big time everytime some radical wacked out so called Christian did something stupid and wacked out.

Also if you know how Christianity works, you can be born into a Christian family (of Christian parents) but to be a Christian, well it takes a proffesion of faith and that is something an infant can't do that.

Now I have an idea for a new post on a different board  :-[

02/09/03 at 16:07:53
jannah
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
bhaloo
02/09/03 at 13:43:48
[slm]

[quote author=mike aka ltcorpest2 link=board=ummah;num=1044113062;start=30#30 date=02/09/03 at 10:39:05]  I would like to hear from a couple of muslims just say that he and his organization was behind it.  
[/quote]

If you actually brought proof instead of using your own prejudices against Muslims and blaming them, we might believe you.  

Personally I would like to hear Mike admit that these problems we are seeing are a result of the United States carrying out terrorist attacks against civillians in other countries.   I've shown already a few times how the US has overthrown governments in other countries, yet Mike hasn't commented on this.

[quote]
 My post has nothing to do with upsetting muslims.  It is giving a different viewpoint.  thinking that UBL was behind the attacks should not be upsetting,  I do not blame muslims or their faith for this.
[/quote]

A viewpoint that has no proof.  Come on Mike, that's as credible as saying the Easter Bunny did it.

[quote]
 Also,  Tim Mcveigh was not born a Christian,  that is impossible becasue nobody can be born a Christian ifyou have any understanding of the Christian faith.
[/quote]

He was raised as a Christian and probably shared similiar beliefs to you.  

[quote] 
 You haven't heard of Christian churches  being targetted probably because it wasn't important to you.  The pastor of my church was interviewed after The Oklahoma City bombing and we  are in California.  They regularly infiltrate the aryan nation and other goofball  churches and organzations as well they should.[/quote]

Was he thrown in jail or required to register with the INS?  Its not the same thing.

[quote]
By stating this, it appears that you justify events of 911. Say it ain't so Bhaloo...say it ain't so!
[/quote]

I didn't say that.  But imagine if someone came and killed your family and bombed your house.  What would you do?  Fight back?  

There was a great article I posted yesterday (written by a non-Muslim) explaining why the world hates America and the horrible things the American government is doing in other countries.   I'm very surprised that you, Mike and Caraj ignored the article and didn't  comment on it.  
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
BroHanif
02/09/03 at 13:55:23
Caraj,

C'mon please think to what your are posting for. bhaloos not saying his against America his saying his against the policies of the politicians not against the American public.

I'm also defending your husband and the thousands of innocent British and US servicemen stationed in the Gulf. I'm defending the innocent Iraqis, the Palestinians, the Jews and the Christians. Look at the evidence that is being presented by Mr Powell. Seriously, look at the evidence that was produced by No 10 Downing St in London. The dossier is based on a pack of lies. Do you expect an attack on Iraq from the shambles of a document ?. Is it justified by killing a million people?. NO.

I enjoy living in Britain, I expect you to enjoy living in the States. However, we can not sit silently when a massacre is going to take place. The effects of this war is going to have a further harmful effect on the Muslims of the entire world against everyone. We are going to lose the years that we all worked together, our interfaith councils, our way of life everything that we shared for together we are on the brink of losing it.

Seriously I appeal to everyone, this post is not Anti-American or Anti-British, the American public do not want a war, the British public do not want a war. The politicians of both country's WANT a war. There is a clear distinction here. There is no need to go to war, there are a few WMD's in Iraq no doubt hidden some place away but to wage a war on flimsy pieces of evidence, please.

How is it failing already, the politicians have labelled some Muslim organisations as terrorist organisations. The recent article by the Guardian http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,892145,00.html

has now showed Mr Powell with egg on his face, many in the UK thought his presentation was excellent, yet few days later we find out that hey this evidence wouldn't stand up in the lower courts forget the higher ones.

The policies of our politicians are driving this world to complete destruction, and Islaam isn't just about religion its about politics as well. Standing up for and speaking about injustice we have to do this but with wisdom. True we all need to do work here no ones, perfect. Yet we have to start somewhere maybe everyone should stop and think about the post and come back later on and reply to it or think about what they are saying and re-read it several times before posting it. I don't know.

I'll be sorry to see you go or anyone else, yet, maybe you can come back and log on, however when the 3,000 pound bomb hits an innocent child in Iraq s/he won't be able to log on forever.
NS
02/09/03 at 13:57:42
BroHanif
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Caraj
02/09/03 at 14:14:45
Bhaloo, I will look for the artical you speak of, I work and care for animals and am doing it by myself Bro, I don't get to read every artical, sorry.

Haniff, I didn't say I was not coming back just said it made me strongly feel like not coming back.

I hear all this Anti American this and how stupid, dumb, living in a bubble stuff about the US and I don't agree with everything mu country does, then I voice my opinions to my family and I get fussed at by them for my thoughts when I am trying to give and recieve input and wisdom.
I had my aunt so mad the other day I actually got the feeling she wanted to hit me. She was so mad, yelling at me in my car and all.

Chrisitanity is suppose to be peace, mercy, forgiveness and all
Islam is suppose to be peace, mercy and forgiveness and all.

So PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Lets all be peaceful, have mercy and seek and give forgiveness.

I don't want someone elses oil I am happy to chop wood for the wood stove (If my country would stop chopping down all the forest and selling it over seas) I did this chopping my own wood many times and without a husband.

I would gladly go back to horse and buggy and limit my gasoline consumption (if the local government would let me drive on the roads)

I would gladly help and accept Muslim, Christian and others. (and I do)

I would love my country to mind it's own business and take care of its own people and defense at home.

I would love it and be very thankful if the surrounding countries would handle this matter instead of using my countires resourses, after all is they want Saddam ousted then they should do it instead of allowing them to hurt their own people.

I just want to live my life with my husband peacefully and raise my own food and help others and not have to worry about all this stuff.
All these events are even effecting my marriage and my relationship with my family.

Why is it that if one doesn't agree with you, then you are automatically wrong???

I feel bad about this whole thing and if I could I would gladly go over there myself and help the children and mothers over there. I would gladly bring food and hold those children in my arms and rock them to sleep, Bring clothes and my heart. But the US proably wouldn't let me go and the government over there proably wouldn't allow it. Both are to stuck on their own issues than to do what is right. Both are so concerned about their own egos and issues that they are not taking care of their own.

I almost wish God/Allah could come down with a paddle and spank the heck out of all the leaders that are not doing what is right. (Sorry thats the mamma in me coming out    ;D  )  

By the way I thought this was a space shuttle post   :o
Boy do we all get off topic don't we   ;)



02/09/03 at 14:20:08
Caraj
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
bhaloo
02/09/03 at 21:50:59
[slm]

Very well said bro. Haniff.  I'm also not just referring to the Iraq situation but what's happening in Palestine and Afghanistan.   And its very sad and unfortunate that so many innocent people are being killed by actions that the US government is taking.  And because of these actions, innocent American and other westerners are becoming the recipient of those that have been wronged.    And we here in America don't see the whole picture of what is going on.  If you read what the press in Europe is saying  you will see the world in a view different light (and I still think that it is biased, but still it is so much better then the press here in the US).

[quote]
I would love my country to mind it's own business and take care of its own people and defense at home.
[/quote]

AMEEN.  

Me too.

Also, one thing I want to make clear, is that Islam is not just a religion but it is a complete way of life, economically, politically, socially, etc.  It is the final revelation of God, and a continuation of the message that the previous Prophets (a.s.) presented from God.  For those that have studied the bible in detail will see the mentioning of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) .    And they will read in the Quran and authentic sunnah, about the messiah (Jesus (a.s.) and his 2nd coming), as well as about the dajjal (the anti-christ).    

I would also like to see the rulers of these Muslim countries rule according to the laws of Islam.  
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
Dude
02/10/03 at 00:41:12
[quote]I didn't say that.  But imagine if someone came and killed your family and bombed your house.  What would you do?  Fight back?[/quote]

What I'd do to anyone who would harm my wife or kids can't be and won't posted here.

I would like to think that if my country found itself at war where the circumstances were either surrender or fight for our survival as a nation, I'd have the courage to sign up and go to war. Thank God, Canada hasn't found itself in those circumstances in 50+ years, and my Generation isn't likely to see it.

Having said that, I would be sure NOT to take it out on the innocent in the fashion that the terrorists of 911 did. What happened that day was a non-wartime terrorist attack. I fully expect you to reply with about 1000 examples of American lead actions against the innocent now- and that's OK. Seriously, as a self-proclaimed devout Muslim, aren't you ashamed of the actions of terrorist organizations such as OBL's? I would think, and hope, all devout Muslims are.

I know. I'm naive, and probably expect too much. :(
02/10/03 at 00:48:28
Dude
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
BrKhalid
02/10/03 at 06:08:37
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

[quote]not Allah caused.... come on people God/Allah is not in the murder business [/quote]

Just wanted to clarify one thing Cara.

In the Qur’an there are many stories where Allah destroyed whole nations because of their disobedience to Allah and His Messengers. Hence it is perfectly possible for Allah to destroy someone when He wills.

The problem we have now is that wahy [revelation] has ended with the Qur’an so we have no way of knowing when a disaster happens what the real cause behind it was. Hence the best position to take is to say Allah knows best.
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
sofia
02/10/03 at 09:05:02
I dunno, just thinking outloud but like, here's the thing: if someone were interested in learning a bit more about Islaam, and even if they *only* had www.jannah.org at their disposal, why, of all places, would they spend most of their time in this folder (let alone, this thread)? One of the least spiritual places to be? Not to say this folder is totally unnecessary (altho I do sometimes wish we closed it), but if you know any Muslims by now, then you know that politics is *not* a taboo subject for us. Like, at all. Don't take things personally when we talk politics. We question a lot (maybe not everything, but at least, different things than you may expect). We talk about politics anywhere and anytime we can (admittedly, to a fault). We don't depend on the same sources as most (not all) do from the west.

Ironic, isn't it? That in some third-world countries, people talk about politics a lot more than in the US (this is not to say anything about "rights" but a reflection of how different cultures view certain subject matters). The very thing that we pride ourselves in the most here in the west (freedom of expression, democratic rule), is the very thing we have to be more careful about these days (Muslim or not!). I get less grief criticizing someone's personal faults than I do when I critize the US govt (I've tested that theory out. Seriously, I can talk about my religion with my co-workers and get a better reaction than with the politics topic).

Maybe I'm just naive, but what's the benefit in thinking that the US/west is faultless? To make us (as in, "Americans") feel better? Or is it that only certain types of people can criticize the west? Am I "unpatriotic" if I want something better from the US, and not just for my own benefit? Isn't it our right to question when things are not right? And isn't criticism the first step in changing what's wrong? On the flips-side, can only certain types of people criticize Muslims/"Muslim" govts? We (as Muslims) should be the first to point out these wrongs and try to correct them. But point being, anyone can/should point out wrongs done by Muslims. I think I've mentioned this narration before, but the Prophet (S) at one point told his followers that when the time comes when people are afraid to call a tyrant, a tyrant, then s/he is basically just agreeing with the tyrant. Silence is death, that sort of thing.

I'm not for criticizing for the sake of criticizing, or "bashing" for the sake of "bashing." There's no point to empty opinions, and it's amazingly naive to look at the faults of one side, completely ignoring the faults of the other (and even, ignoring how those faults are interconnected). I'm not getting anywhere near the OBL issue (the brainwashing there is a bit too much. I didn't mention on what side, maybe both. God knows best on that one).

I just wish some of us here would step out of this folder sometimes and learn something from another folder (or better yet, from the real world, even). If you want to learn something about Islaam, read the Qur'aan. If you want to know how well/poorly Islaam is manifested in the behavior of Muslims, talk to one. Maybe by being familiar with the original sources, you'll have something to "measure" us by (and how far we fall from our standard!).

This folder kind of reminds me of that Dawud Wharnsby song about "boxes." Corny as it sounds, we all live in "boxes" to some extent; some of us in smaller ones than others. Even more incredible, is how some of us consistently try to reflect the "outside" from within our little boxes. And I remind myself first.

Back to the original topic of this thread, as BrKhalid aptly mentioned, there's no way we, as humans, can say we know what God did or did not do or did or did not intend with the Columbia disaster or with anything else. God has full knowledge of everything, before it even happens. But did He allow it to happen for a particular reason?

It's as equally offensive to say that God meant X, as it is to say God did not mean X. Get it? It's not up to us to say.

Now, yalla, moderators, lock this thread before I get pounced on. :)
Re: Space Shuttle Apparently Disintegrates
bhaloo
02/10/03 at 09:15:47
[slm]

Dude, I agree with you that whoever did 911 went to an extreme and killed many innocent people, and there's no justification for it.


Mashallah, what an excellent post Sofia and a great way to end the thread.

This thread is now locked.


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