A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| proof that was asked of me |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 02/10/03 at 19:15:59 |
| I was asked by bhaloo to provide some proof so here is some. I picked this from another muslims website called ummah.com. It is a fairly long read so sorry about that. Interview with Senior Al qaida Chief Qarhat: What about Mullah Omar and Osama bin Laden? Al-Muhajir: Osama has sworn allegiance to the Commander of the Faithful Ameerul Mumineen, Mullah Omar, an allegiance that means total obedience. They are both in good health, contrary to what has been reported by the American and “Americanized” mass-media. Qarhati: Where does Palestine fit into your agenda? Al-Muhajir: It is presently found in ours hearts and in ours existence. It is our final destination, however there are obstacles in reaching it at the present time. As to the fight with the Americans, it is indeed like fighting the Jews. They are the other face of the Israeli oppression. Qarhati: How do you explain the quick withdrawal of the Taliban, especially from Kabul? Al-Muhajir: Concerning the intense war between the Taliban and the Americans and concerning how the Americans were able to reach Kabul so easily, these are questions that arise from many tongues and from many media organizations. I will answer them from the perspective of someone who has lived this scenario. There are many reasons for what happened, one cannot ignore any of them or blame one reason over another. The main cause is the lack in preparations and equipment in comparison to the Americans. The difference in the variety of weaponry has greatly affected the battle since the beginning. It enabled the American to undertake various attacks that the Taliban that the Afghan state was not able to cope with. I say this even though the afghan people adhered completely to their country. In such a way that it was hard to distinguish between the Taliban movement as an official corporation and between the people’s movement. The proof is that weapons were being distributed to the people and they were allowed to patrol the street with them, something that wasn’t allowed before the war. This also applied to the brothers who came from abroad to support and give strength to the Taliban, to both Arab and non-Arab Muslims. In reality, the battle was waged since the very beginning from the air. Various kinds of aircrafts were noticed; we counted at least 6 types and each type was used for a very specific task. There are the aircraft that carry tons of explosives; there are also aircraft that carry light explosives and high-caliber machineguns that target convoys and vehicles. There are aircraft that are equipped with heavy explosives and heavy machineguns that target complexes, trenches and caves and aircraft that are used for landings on the ground apart from a variety of other weapons. The Taliban wasn’t equipped for this kind of combat; they found themselves isolated in a war that they didn’t launched and prepare for sufficiently. This isolation was increased by the abandonment of friends and possible allies like Pakistan, Iran, Russia or China, because the American sanctions encompassed them all. Therefore the Taliban had to confront the American invasion alone and without any allies. In spite of this all, the Taliban was able to put up stiff resistance. Kabul for example was able to resist the onslaught for more than six weeks while undergoing an air campaign that got monotonous after a while. Due to the absence of military compounds and targets, the American aircrafts started bombing civilians, residential buildings, schools and hospitals. At this time, the citizens as well as the resistance fighters acknowledged that they were fighting an unfair war. They were also unable to bear the sacrifice of anymore civilian lives. The bombs were harvesting a lot of women, children and elderly, without particularly causing any harm to the Taliban. When Kabul fell, it wasn’t really the frontlines that were taken down. It was the desire of minimizing the civilian targets that accounted for most of the casualties resulting from the air campaign. This move took precedent over all other considerations. It was the American air campaign that allowed the so-called “Northern Alliance” to enter the capital. These forces were unable to wage battle without the “carpet bombing” donated by the Americans. I say this again, the multitude of air born attacks that hit the civilian rear lines pushed the Commander of the Faithful, Ameerul Mumineer, Mullah Omar, to issue instructions to the Military Commanders, asking them to take whatever steps they deem necessary. These Commanders felt that the civilians were most targeted, so they finally decided to retreat. The very fierce and intense campaign was waged with uneven weapons and using children and women as human shields was out of the question. Indeed when the Americans confronted us face to face on the ground in Shah-e-kot, they learned a few lessons that will teach them the art of fighting. The air force was present there too, but we were in a better position to deal with that weapon. About 200 fighters took part in this confrontation, unlike the 2,000 figure which was propagated at the time. There were 120 fighters who belonged to the “Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan” and about 40 fighters under the command of Mawlawi Sayfulrahman Mansoor. There were also about 30 Arab brothers fighting, most of whom were hardened military experts that received their combat experience in and out of Afghanistan. Therefore no civilians were there and only 200 of us participated. We waged a fierce battle and there was confrontation with the enemy. A wide variety of trenches and natural barriers were also available. When the Americans arrived with their air force, they were unable to do any real damage during the course of their battle so consequently they decided to send in the ground troops. Prior to this, they sent us nine truckloads of “Apostate forces” [Afghan American allies]. We were able to finish them all and Commander Sayfulrahman was able to confiscate all their weapons. After that they all started crying like women. At the end, we released the survivors. They escaped from our sights and from Allah, just like a child run away from something that scares him. With this, the Americans decided to send forth their soldiers. During the first day, they sent down 3 units, each in a different location. Each unit contained at least 50 soldiers. One of these units was countered by only 3 Mujahideen, one of them equipped with machine guns with 250 extra shots, nothing more. The second one was equipped with a normal machine gun and 2 rocket-propelled grenades. And the third one carried 2 machine guns with six magazines of ammo. These Mujahideen fighters alone were able to elude and vanquish this advancement without outside help, before being supported by another 15 fighters. In the wake of this event, night combat erupted following the advancement of the last two units. The Americans used bombers that operated in darkness and they attacked one of our gathering which lead to the death of more than 20 Mujahideen. We continued to fight until daybreak then we decided to retreat to safer locations close to a village called Shah-e-kot. The battle continued there for six days under the command of Mullah Jawad, the brother of Commander Sayfulrahman. During those days, the advancement of the Americans was perpetual. And we were able to drag them every time to the middle of a tightening noose. This kept happening until they decided to stop their operations in order to reduce losses, so they returned once again to aerial attacks. I swear by Allah, these attacks did not stop for one moment during the whole period of the fighting. In spite of this all, we were able to conduct effective missions that impacted behind the rear-lines of the Americans. We were in perpetual motion, always moving in circles. The American casualties would have been much higher if they sent down more soldiers. After one week of fighting, we were obliged to leave the village with some of our afghan allies. During the climb down, we encountered sixteen American soldiers in full combat gear. Keep in mind that the combat gear of an American soldier exceeds in quality and quantity the equipment of five of our fighters with regard to their firepower, punching power, and their ability to fight at night using advanced technological weapons. Our personal weapons are well known, they are spoils of war that we acquired from fighting the Russians in the war against the Soviets in the first Afghan Jihad. Nevertheless those American soldiers weren’t able to fire a single shot in our direction, they sat in the corner of the room crying and lamenting. After we figured that they couldn’t accompany us in our retreat, we decided to execute them all at once. I say this in order to give proof of the form of fighting we are wishing. Indeed the Americans know that facing the Mujahideen on the ground is a hard task. They also lost a number of aircraft because we excel in the use of our humble weapons. Going back to the question about Kabul, I say that the truth concerning what the Americans call a success happened only because of the air campaign and through targeting innocent civilians in particular. You have seen the numbers of casualties that fell in Kabul, Jalalabad, Kandahar and other provinces. The Taliban leadership figured that if their resistance continued, will have to bear the burden of the continuous onslaught on these innocents. Therefore the decision to retreat took place. I recall the first statement of the Commander of the Faithful, Ameerul Mumineen, Mullah Omar, where he spoke about what we were going through. The statement was released at the beginning of the battle and contained three main points. The first point addressed the Mujahideen in every place, and especially in Afghanistan. It contained the words of Allah (SWT): “So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be superior (in victory) if you are indeed (true) believers.” [Quran 3:139] Indeed this fact makes clear that this battle is an Islamic war against the devil, a battle between the allies of The Merciful one [Allah (SWT)] and the allies of Satan. In the second point, he mentioned that the American empire, indeed we will see this soon if Allah (SWT) wills it, will get annihilated in Afghanistan; just like their Russian and British predecessors. The third point was that the Americans would not be happy if they step foot inside Afghanistan, because this Jihad will be converted into a guerrilla war. All of this shows that the Commander of the Faithful [Mullah Omar] had a clear vision since the beginning. He knew totally well that retreating from cities and crowded areas was a decision which had to be taken. This retreat was the only way to shift this battle from a confrontation between an aggressive military army targeting civilian resources and an attacked state with all its civil and military institutions that is defending its people and country into a guerrilla war at the right time. Every day that goes by, the Americans sustain casualties and losses. In summary, what happened in Afghanistan was a transition from an impossible war with uneven weapons into a possible war. It allows us to decide the exact time and place on the Afghan soil of the next battle, where the first round isn’t necessarily the last one. Qarhat: What is the truth concerning Osama bin Laden’s allegiance to Mullah Omar, Commander of the Faithful? Al-Muhajir: Shaykh Osama bin Laden has indeed sworn allegiance to the Commander of the Faithful [Mullah Omar]. This allegiance means complete obedience to us Muslims. He (Shaykh Osama) was one of the Arab Commanders who led the Mujahideen in the first Afghan Jihad, before supporting the Taliban and swearing allegiance to the Commander of the Faithful. On this account, he is a member of the Muslim community and he possesses rights just like every other Muslim in Afghanistan; he also has duties just like every other Muslim. Qarhati: Is this obedience still active during the war? Al-Muhajir: The nature of the war has changed but we haven’t heard yet that Mullah Omar has removed his commanding rank. Neither did we hear that Shaykh Osama bin Laden has turned back on his obedience. The Emirate is still standing and we are struggling to reestablish it; the obedience is currently active. Qarhati: Many people doubt in Osama bin Laden’s commitment to Palestinian, even though he swore that “America will never dream of safety until safety becomes a reality for us living in Palestine.” Are the events that occurred in America a result of what is happening in Palestine? Al-Muhajir: Shaykh Osama bin Laden thinks of America as a big cancer and a snake that is causing all the humiliations Islam is going through today. He sees America as a strategic target that will lead to victory in Palestine and in all the other lands of Islam. Striking the Americans is similar to directly striking all the tyrants who are behaving arrogantly on all the Muslims in the world. I just want to remind everyone that the Commander of the Faithful, Mullah Omar, has never stopped his incitement in assisting the Mujahideen in Palestine. Even when he was managing the training camps in Afghanistan, the doors were always open to whoever worked towards the Palestinian cause. He always requested that no restrictions be placed on the ones who work for Palestine. I heard him once swear by Allah - the Most Great - that if it wasn’t for the lack of help and human resources he was encountering, he would give everything he owned to the Palestinians. He kept saying that when the situation in the north [of Afghanistan] and the disobedient opposition were taken care of, he would concentrate all his efforts in helping to support the Palestinian situation. That was the position of the Commander of the Faithful, Mullah Omar, concerning the Palestinian issue. Furthermore everyone who comes to Afghanistan to train and perform Jihad considers the Palestinian cause as indeed the first and most important cause. If there are other issues that take precedence, it is not because they are more important but due to one of two reasons: the first is that dealing with these matters will eventually lead to Palestine. The other reason is that the inability of waging Jihad in Palestine has diverted this fight to another place, while waiting for the right time to fight the Jews; this fight is indeed in the bottom of all our hearts. During the confrontation against the Americans in Shah-e-Kot, I recall hearing more than one Mujahid saying: “We hoped that these martyrs were on the soil of Palestine and we hoped that our struggle was directed only towards Palestine at this stage.” The Mujahideen everywhere have two eyes, one eye set on the events they are encountering right now and another eye continuously set on Palestine. The ones that stopped us from fighting the Jews are indeed those [Arab] traitors. These regimes fight against the Mujahideen and work on securing the state of Israel with manufactured laws and reconciliations. Indeed Palestine has never left our hearts; we ask Allah (SWT) to make it possible for us to show the Jews our actions in Palestine very soon, Allah willingly. Qarhat: What is your opinion concerning the Arab Islamic Groups who are present on the Afghan scene? Were the latest events able to unite or split the ranks of these groups? Al-Muhajir: We ask Allah (SWT) to assist everyone on his battlefield. When I speak about the Islamic Groups of Jihad, it is not to ignore the remaining groups. Jihad Groups weren’t created to cause separation or splitting, they were created by a shattered reality. They came in small groups because they were secluded from one another. Nevertheless the largest scene that witnessed fusion of Jihad forces is indeed Afghanistan. We have seen since then a lot of alliances and many attempts to coordinate the Mujahideen units and Jihad Groups. We still need some time before our unique goals and leaderships will be crystallized. Just like to the union that is happening now due to the combat against the Americans, we continue to struggle in this direction and we ask Allah (SWT) to guide the Muslims to what is best for Islam. Qarhati: Is there any cooperation between you and Hamas or the Jihad inside Palestine? Al-Muhajir: We think that the Palestinian cause encompasses all Muslims as a whole, not just the Muslim organizations alone. Indeed Palestine is our destiny and we have been blocked from it by the [Arab] tyrants. We are diligently struggling to break this blockade which has restrained us from attaining our supreme goal of liberating Palestine by fighting the Jews. We all wish to become martyrs on this holy land. Therefore Palestine is not a cause for the Mujahideen alone but a cause that encompasses all Muslims. We will cooperate with any Muslim who can manage to bring us closer to that target. Qarhati: The Americans have declared the destruction of Al-Qaida, what is the truth concerning this organization and its military capabilities? Is it an organization that has reached its last gasp? Furthermore how do you see the future of the conflict with the Americans? Will it always be confined to Afghanistan or will it transgress the Afghan borders to the outside world? Al-Muhajir: The events of the 11th of September should answer this question. The fall of the twin towers and the burning of the Pentagon clearly demonstrate the essence of Al-Qaida and its ability to break the American state security. The ability of such a small group that is able to penetrate the US security shows that Al-Qaida isn’t bound to a specific geographical location; rather it is indeed spread all over the earth. As to the destruction of Al-Qaida, these words are intended for the mass-media consumption. The Commander of this organization is Shaykh Osama bin Laden, he is present and his achievements are evident for all to see The operation that attacked the Jewish temple in Tunisia (Djerba) was conducted by brothers from the Al-Qaida organization. Indeed this will drag more and more operations behind it. The news of the upcoming days will prove once again the continuance of this organization. It will show its solidity and its insistence on constantly developing itself. In this context, I confirm that Nizar Sayf al-deen al-Tunisi who executed this operation is one of the Mujahideen of Al-Qaida and his codename is “Sayf” (Sword). In addition, it is true that the battle we have waged in Afghanistan after the 11th of September has changed our situation concerning military work, media appearances training camps, etc…but nobody can claim that Al-Qaida is over or that the role of the Taliban movement is over. The Taliban has spread into the depth of the Afghan constitution, meaning the class of society that contains the scholars and the students of knowledge all over the Afghan lands. Yet even today, the Commander of the Faithful, Mullah Omar, would personally participate in the fighting on the battlefronts, if his entourage didn’t stop him from doing so in order to safeguard him. Indeed it is a lie to say that Taliban or Al-Qaida or the Arab Mujahideen are over. We are still, praise be to Allah (SWT), waging the battle and the land of Afghanistan can bear witness that our war against the Americans is still standing. Qarhat: The Americans consider Abu Zubayda, the man they captured, to be a great catch. What were the surrounding events of this arrest and what is the importance of this catch? Al-Muhajir: First of all, I would like to address the Muslims in general and the Mujahideen in particular concerning the prisoners. All Muslims are responsible for them and they will indeed be accountable for them on the Day of Judgment. These men sacrificed their lives in order to bring back glory to the Ummah and to raise its fallen honor. Indeed Allah – the Most Great – commanded us something unquestionable: Allowing Muslims to be imprisoned and to forsake the Muslim captives is absolutely forbidden. Verily Allah (SWT) says in Surat al-Nisaa’: “And never will Allah grant to the disbelievers a way (to triumph) over the believers” [Quran 4:141]. The prophet (SAWS) stressed this point and he ordered us to work on releasing our captives as he said: “… and release the captives!” [Sahih Bukhari]. The scholars of Islam said “Muslims should never expose their necks, or the necks of a few of them, to the disbelievers.” According to the words of Allah (SWT) and to the sayings of the prophet (SAWS), every Muslim will be accountable for what our captives in Guantanamo are going through today. All Muslims are asked to undertake everything in their power in order to save these captives and every other Muslim captive, either in Guantanamo or in Palestine. As for the ones in Guatanamo, all praise be to Allah (SWT), history will be witness that they didn’t give themselves up easily and in a simple manner. We ask Allah (SWT) to enable us to capture those scoundrels [The Americans] in order to redeem our brothers in Guantanamo. Concerning brother Abu Zubaydah, may Allah (SWT) hasten his release and relieve him from captivity with all the Muslims and Mujahideen, I will say that the Americans haven’t accomplished any big goal in Afghanistan. And the congress still asks until today: “What have you achieved so far over there? What have you fulfilled - conflict and hardship or great success?” I also say that the evil American media, even though it has penetrated every home in the world, is still looking for new targets. And every time one of those targets gets captured, they blow its significance out of proportion as if it were a historic victory. For example let’s look at “Ibn al-Shaykh”; he is an old man who has lived among the Mujahideen. When the Americans captured him, they said he is “the biggest symbol for the Al-Qaida organization”. They honked and banged their drums and we haven’t heard until today what they were able to extract from Ibn al-Shaykh. This exaggeration also applies to Abu Zubaydah, may Allah (SWT) hasten his release. In addition, capturing one of the Mujahideen of Al-Qaida does not mean capturing of the entire organization or discovering its secrets. That scenario does not apply when it comes to the Mujahideen organizations. Brother Abu Zubaydah was in contact with a lot of Mujahideen. The Americans claim that this investigation will disclose secrets but it will indeed prove that he has nothing under his hat that matches what the Americans are looking for. Abu Zubaydah will not lead them to Shaykh Osama bin Laden’s location. Neither is he able to lead them to the location of the Commander of the Faithful [Mullah Omar]. He will not be able to tell them anything about the future targets Al-Qaida and Taliban are going to hit. He cannot tell them anything about the upcoming phase of Taliban strategies that are currently being built. Abu Zubaydah does not know anything about these matters. They will only find out that he used to help the Mujahideen and support some of their married couples. He also used to help some of them cross over to Afghanistan by helping to get visas and similar matters. I think that they can obtain information on those things from any of the Mujahideen held in Guantanamo. Abu Zubaydah cannot help them with anything else. Qarhati: Can we expect new attacks on the Americans? And what do you say to the Israelis? Al-Muhajir: As to the Americans, I praise Allah (SWT), we have met them upfront. Similarly, Allah (SWT) has disgraced them by allowing them to get to know us face to face. And the ones who defended Shah-e-Kot are still here, therefore the Americans should prepare themselves for the likes of these battles. Let them prepare their men if indeed they have any. We ask Almighty Allah to support us in our upcoming phase, meaning the guerrilla war and our ability in dealing with aircraft. Praise be to Allah (SWT), we have indeed accomplished many of those preparations. As for the Jews, we ask Allah (SWT) to enable us to support our Palestinian brothers and to enable us to throw ourselves at the Jews. By Allah the greatest, the only thing we wish for is that our necks get slaughtered and that our blood gets shed and that our efforts reach their climax in Palestine and al-Quds [Jerusalem] with our brothers over there. At the moment, we have no comments for our brothers in Palestine other than to tell them that we wish we can be a protective shield for them and we also wish we can join them in facing this enemy. By Allah (SWT), we will never neglect this matter and we will not diminish our efforts until we reach our goal. We tell our brothers in Palestine that we are all on the same path. Indeed if we fight the Americans today, it is only because we think they are the other face of the Jews and fighting them is identical to fighting the Jews. |
| Re: proof that was asked of me |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 02/10/03 at 19:31:46 |
| If those so called brothers worked and sacrificed for God, would that not make them muslims? If I am missing something let me know? 4pm update -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Al-Jazeera airs new Bin Laden video Staff and agencies Monday April 15, 2002 Undated video still featuring Osama bin Laden (right) and his top deputy Ayman al-Zawahri. Photo: Al-Jazeera/APTN, AP Terror suspect Osama bin Laden was shown in brief video excerpts aired today by the pan-Arab satellite station al-Jazeera. The tape was said to have been received in the past few days but it was not clear when it had been made - so gave no clue as to whether Bin Laden was still alive after the US-led military action in Afghanistan. Bin Laden, the leader of the al-Qaida terror network, was shown but did not speak and was alongside his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahri, who said on the tape that the September 11 attacks were a "great victory". The excerpt aired today was part of a series of clips from what appeared to be videotapes from al-Qaida. A separate clip to the one showing Bin Laden featured a man believed to have been one of the hijackers responsible for last year's terrorist attacks on the US. On the clip, he says: "It's time to kill Americans in their heartland." Al-Jazeera subtitles identify the man only as Alghamdi and he is shown speaking to the camera in a style similar to that in videotapes made by Palestinian suicide bombers before attacks. The FBI has identified two of the 19 hijackers as Hamza Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi. The figure is wearing military fatigues over a black shirt and a black and white checked scarf wrapped around his head. He sits before what appears to be a photo montage showing the World Trade Centre in flames. However, the TV station said that this recording was made months before the attack, but did not explain how it reached that conclusion. An al-Jazeera official said the tapes were received a few days ago at its headquarters in Doha, Qatar, but would not give more details than that. The station, which has repeatedly received and aired video of Bin Laden statements, said it would air the complete tapes on Thursday. In one of the clips shown today, Bin Laden and Zawahri kneeled side by side. Zawahri said: "Those 19 brothers who went out and worked and sacrificed their lives for God, God granted this conquest that we enjoy today. "The great victory that was achieved was because of God's help and not because of our efficiency or power." Al-Jazeera is a 24-hour station owned by Qatar's government but known for a fairly independent editorial line. It reaches more than 35 million Arabs, including 150,000 in the United States. The Arab satellite station aired a video, released by the United States last year, showing the al-Qaida leader appearing to discuss the planning of the September 11 attacks. Washington had expressed concerns about al-Qaida broadcasts being shown, citing fears secret messages may be being relayed to supporters. |
| Re: proof that was asked of me |
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| jannah |
| 02/11/03 at 02:58:43 |
| Mike, Can we come to a consensus that, if OBL did it then he wasn't following the teachings of Islam. and that if Muslims defend OBL and say he didn't do it, they are not saying they support terrorism. |
| Re: proof that was asked of me |
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| Dude |
| 02/15/03 at 11:59:14 |
| I would say no. There is too much proof that OLB was behind 911. I see this as the same as someone claiming that the German Holocaust never happened. Either that, or blind faith in others who profess to the same religion. Whichever, shame shame. |
| 02/15/03 at 12:00:32 |
| Dude |
| Re: proof that was asked of me |
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| bhaloo |
| 02/15/03 at 15:56:09 |
| [slm] [quote] There is too much proof that OLB was behind 911. I see this as the same as someone claiming that the German Holocaust never happened. [/quote] Is there? Then you can provide it, because I haven't heard of any proof yet. Merely saying someone did it or didn't isn't any sort of proof and is an emotional response with no basis. It serves no purpose other then to embarass the one that said it if he can't back his claims up. In a court of law this isn't how things are done. But I've heard in the news OBL praising what the hijackers did, but that's it, and that isn't proof that he did it. Now allow me to provide some responses. Article by Christopher Burst taking apart the so called proof against Bin Laddin: http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=98195 The so called evidence is a farce - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inin/message/3004 A BBC news article which states clearly: "There is no direct evidence in the public domain linking Osama Bin Laden to the 11 September attacks. At best the evidence is circumstantial." - http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1581000/1581063.stm Blair's evidence of bin Laden's guilt nothing but old news stories and leaps of logic - http://216.71.207.129/mmn/gowans30.html The evidence would not convict in court - but it does justify a limited war - http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=97794 [quote] Can we come to a consensus that, if OBL did it then he wasn't following the teachings of Islam. and that if Muslims defend OBL and say he didn't do it, they are not saying they support terrorism. [/quote] Excellent post by Jannah, I agree completely. |
| 02/15/03 at 15:59:52 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: proof that was asked of me |
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| Dude |
| 02/16/03 at 12:48:13 |
| I'm sorry, but I don't think you can be viewed by others as being a devout Muslim if you "defend OBL and say he didn't do it". You said it yourself: "I've heard in the news OBL praising what the hijackers did." The man is a known leader of a terrorist organization. I don't see anyone who defends a terrorist worthy of calling themselves Muslim (or Christian or Jew, for that matter). I don't see people like this as being truly devout to their religion, just pretenders. |
| 02/16/03 at 12:48:45 |
| Dude |
| Re: proof that was asked of me |
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| BrKhalid |
| 02/17/03 at 11:03:24 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]and that if Muslims defend OBL and say he didn't do it, they are not saying they support terrorism[/quote] Apologies Dude but I think you may have missed what was trying to be said here. Taking the stance of “give me proof until I’m convinced” is not a statement supporting terrorism. It’s something that even 12 people in a jury would have to do. It is somewhat different to condoning terrorism which is what you seem to suggest. A subtle difference I agree but nevertheless an important one. |
| Re: proof that was asked of me |
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| Dude |
| 02/17/03 at 11:48:08 |
| No apologies necessary. Beides, you don't need to defend Bhaloo, he seems fairly capable of doing it himself. I fully understand what Jannah and you are implying. A man is innocent until proven guilty. Having said that, I feel strongly we are dealing with two separate issues. Why is Bhaloo so adamant that we show him “proof beyond a reasonable doubt” that OBL was chiefly responsible for the 911 attacks? Why is he so defensive of this madman? There is ample evidence, and groups from both these sides and Arab countries seem to be in agreement that OBL was the mastermind. Seems to me like a silly stance to take, if you are truly a religious person, and truly abhor acts like 911. |
| Re: proof that was asked of me |
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| Halima |
| 02/18/03 at 02:18:49 |
| Without defending anybody or any theory, to this day the 9/11 attack still referred to by every media group from CNN, Sky News, BBC to others, as "allegedly materstminded by OBL???" Now, if it is a fact that OBL is 100% behind it, why not say, "The 9/11 attack masterminded by OBL" period??? Same goes for the weaspons of mass destruction that Iraq is said to have. The Media uses the word "alleged" or "said to" every time it talks or reports on the Iraq issue. We are living in an age where "proof" is everything. "said to", "allegedly" does not cut at all whether an evil man is involved or not. Nobody in their right sense condons the 9/11 attacks. But to pin it on somebody because America considers him now an enemy because he no longer serves American purposes leaves a lot to be desired. It is a fact that America turns on whoever it does not need anymore. Be it OBL or otherwise. [slm] Halima |
| Re: proof that was asked of me |
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| Dude |
| 02/19/03 at 09:24:59 |
| The word "alleged" is used by media members to avoid litigation. E.g.: "Alleged serial killer Robert Picton..."- Picton hasn't had his court date yet, but there is ample DNA evidence and material witnesses to show he murdered over a dozen Vancouver women. "Bill Clinton allegedly had a sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky..."- Before testimony confirmed the relationship. "Dude alleges that people like Bhaloo, who defends a known terrorist, are not truly faithful to their religion, because by defending the man, you are also defending all of his "alleged" actions."- My allegation of Bhaloo and others who share his opinion. "Allegedly" is basically a word most often used by the media to ward off defamatory lawsuits. So, that being said, I prefer to take a stance, rather than hide behind words like "alleged". Sometimes, if it quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it must be a duck. ::) |
| Re: proof that was asked of me |
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| BrKhalid |
| 02/19/03 at 09:47:39 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]I fully understand what Jannah and you are implying. A man is innocent until proven guilty.[/quote] If that’s the case Dude, you wouldn’t label all those who prefer to await judgement to be passed as terrorists or those who support terrorists would you? |
| Re: proof that was asked of me |
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| Maliha |
| 02/19/03 at 09:53:09 |
| [quote author=Dude link=board=ummah;num=1044922559;start=0#9 date=02/19/03 at 09:24:59] "Dude alleges that people like Bhaloo, who defends a known terrorist, are not truly faithful to their religion, because by defending the man, you are also defending all of his "alleged" actions."- My allegation of Bhaloo and others who share his opinion. [/quote] [slm] Hmmm.. I don't get how if one questions your stance he is automatically defending the "terrorist"...sounds much like the rhetoric being spit by Bush "if you are not with us, you are against us". Without providing any proof, you expect people to be 100% behind these so called "allegations" and if they have the intellectual capacity to pose a mere question "Please give me the proof so that I can make my own intelligent decision" you claim that they aren't true to their faith? hmmm..i recall that you are the one who talked about religious people being like sheep or something like that? Now merely asking a question in the face of a host of propaganda during war times is considered anti religious? Wow... |
| Re: proof that was asked of me |
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| bhaloo |
| 02/19/03 at 09:54:28 |
| [slm] Dude, you haven't provided any proof for anything, and are embarassing yourself. You haven't provided ANY proof for anything other then to sit here and argue like a child that "OH I'M RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG". What kind of proof is that? I would have thought by now we would be beyond something like this and much more advanced in our discourse. The world's biggest terrorists are the United States government and this has been proven time and time again here on this board with countless articles, with terrorist activities committed by the US government in foreign lands, the middle east, south america, asia, africa, etc. (take for example the school of the americas: http://www.soaw.org/) The Bush family has done far more crimes against humanity then Hitler did. I personally believe that the acts on 911 involved Israel and the US government, as they were the ones to most benefit from this, i.e. stealing the oil and removing any threat to the security of "israel". Just like the war in CHechneya, we learned recently a few months ago that the bombs planted there were by government forces, a general in the Russian army admitted this. And here the Russians are calling the Muslims fighting there for their lives as terrorists when it was the Russians that carried out these attacks. For months they had been saying that Muslims terrorists were alleged to have carried out these acts. May Allah (SWT) grant the Muslims there the highest place in paradise, and grant them victory over their oppressors. AMEEN. We live in the ultimate age of illusion. The ONLY reason the US bombed Afghanistan was because the Taliban didn't like the deal that Bush's oil buddies were offering them, its documented and was posted here before. The US government is like the mafia, threatening small countries, and doing extortion. And they have put evil dictators into power into these countries. Saddam Hussein was supported by the US years ago and put into power by him, and was supplied with chemical weapons by the US government. The countless articles that I have put up here have shown. this. Yes, the articles are more then 1 or 2 sentences, so maybe that's why people haven't bothered reading them or listening to the proof, instead they listen to what Bush and Ashcroft says, believing that whoever is labeled a terrorist by them is a terrorist. Its sad that people have stopped thinking and looking at the reality around them. Look at the news in other countries, and open your eyes to what's going around. The news is very different in other countries, check the BBC out for example. And what do you know about religion? You aren't ANYONE to even judge who is or who isn't a devout christian or muslim. What kind of thing is that for you to even be saying? ??? I mean your whole belief system is based on what YOU deem to be right or wrong, it has no basis or proof other then what you feel is right. Please provide proof on what is a devout Muslim from the Quran, Sunnah, or the sayings of the sahabi (i.e. Islamic sources, because thats how we do things, with PROOF), and how your false accusations coincide with this. If you can't then stop your allegations. |
| 02/19/03 at 22:19:40 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: proof that was asked of me |
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| panjul |
| 02/19/03 at 21:56:53 |
| [slm] That is why I had asked on an earlier post if there were any muslims who thought differently Oh I think it was OBL, and *many* people i know believe that; and there are many that don't believe in terrorism and were shocked and hurt by 9/11 but who *don't* believe that it was OBL. I haven't been following this thread that much cuz i'm tired of the subject frankly. and that's all I have to say. Can i request something please? :) Don't ask me for arguments and proofs and please no lecture on blaming a fellow muslim without solid proof. Just like to point out one thing. I have been hearing OBL's name as far back as the 9th grade and I always wondered then, that how come this man isn't spending all that money he has on education on the afghani people or other devastated poor muslim countries? What good did it do him to spend all that money on weapons? (talking pre-9/11). and i keep wondering the same thing. Why do i have a feeling that i won't be getting good responses back? I knew I should have stayed out. and guess what? i am staying out, my first and last time visiting! Take care everyone! P.S. many muslims won't say that it's OBL even if they think so because they may feel that their fellow muslims might look down at them dissapprovingly. *AGAIN*, that's not saying that those muslims approve of terrorism. Salams and happy debating and yelling. :) |
| Re: proof that was asked of me |
|---|
| jannah |
| 02/20/03 at 06:35:06 |
| [slm] OBL Guilty or Not topic is now banned. There's no need for evidence and judgements. This isn't a court of law, thank you. I believe this topic was banned before too. Don't know why it keeps coming up. I'm reposting some of Mike's post that was deleted and added my own comments at the bottom: [code] i guess i need to post a couple of things here and since this will be my last post i will have to combine a few things. One is thank you Jannah for all the great things you have done on here, You have been a gracious host. And thank you to all the friends I have made on here and I know I owe a couple of notes to people on here and I am sorry that I didn't get back to you. But I am kinda burned out and I don't know why but I have taken a few things to heart here and I would rather not act in this manner because I know the last couple of posts were negative on my part (although the psychologist one was meant to be a joke, although who knows maybe it was a frreudian slip also). And I am sorry that I offended people on the last couple of posts, but now back to the issue. It is interesting, but i said something on another post and I was accused of being a racist, my belief system was compared to a mass murderer and that my opinions were comparable to believing in the easter bunny, but i didnt hear one muslim say anything. I guess if you are muslim and your thoughts are questioned then you get attacked but some one who defames and lies about another person that is ok as long as you are a muslim talking about a kafir. I hear the talk about proof and where is it, but is see a whole bunch of posts here but not one mentioned the proof in the post. he original post has been totally ignored. It seeems to me that a confession especially one that is not coerced should have some weight. I also noted today that one of the 911 coconspirators was found guilty by a jury of his own peers and guess what, he wasn't a jew or from the United States. Apologies Dude but I think you may have missed what was trying to be said here. Taking the stance of “give me proof until I’m convinced” is not a statement supporting terrorism. It’s something that even 12 people in a jury would have to do. It is somewhat different to condoning terrorism which is what you seem to suggest. A subtle difference I agree but nevertheless an important one. Bro Khalid , i think you are missing the point. The point of the article was from another post. In the other post was an attack against me saying that muslims were not responsible. And the defence that Bhaloo and other muslims raise is that he was not convicted by a jury of his own peers by some mock trail done by some lawyer association. A trial especially one that is conducted outside the court system set up by some arbitrary parameters is not the best arbiter of truth, in fact I would argue that an action like this may not be an indication at all of what the truth is. The legal system is not set up for truth only but for civil rights and protection of society. I am sure you have heard the saying that the law is the last refuge of scoundrels. It is sad that muslims want to hang their collective hats on something like that. You want to define the parameters of the arguement so narrowly so as to make the task of debate fruitless. This is a very sad form of sophism and I am so sad that either there is not one muslim on here that can think critically or that can look at facts independent of taking the side of the USA and say what the truth is. Not to speak for any non muslims here , but I think if you asked who was responsible for 911 there would be either 100% or virtually 100% agreement, and if you asked them if it was muslims in general or their religion there would be the same ration that do not blame muslims or their religion. But from what I am hearing no muslims think that muslims or people wh purport to be muslims were involved. There is a total reality disconnect by one of these 2 groups, and guess what, it ain't me. I have a feeling that there is some other dynamic at play and I was hoping that some muslim could point it out to me. That is why I had asked on an earlier post if there were any muslims who thought differently but I guess there isn't or at least have the desire to voice a different opinion or even question the status quo of the thoughts laid out by Bhaloo and others. Well there has been a trial about 911 and it was a muslim who was convicted. and many videos put out by AL qaeda and their spokesmen admittting to this. Are you prepared to call another muslim a liar? One last thing , please take at a look at Bhaloos last post, what a degrading way to talk to people, or doesnt anyone realize that, I should think that some muslim would defend someone's right to give an opinion on here without someone talking down like that. anyways take care and God bless, i actaully had a few more things to say but I hope that what i posted is not offensive to anyone. Mike [/code] For every one Mike there are hundreds like him reading the board. And thousands more nonMuslims we interact with on a daily basis that think exactly the way he does. I'd just like to say one thing, if you are the average person, for the last 2 years or more you've been inundated with stuff about OBL. His actions, reports stories, interviews, allegations, police reports etc. For the average person he and his organization are guilty without a doubt, through a court of law or UN or media or whatever justice system. Now when a Muslim comes along and vehemently denies all this and supports OBL, to the average person they are defending someone guilty of horrible crimes and are blindly defending him and terrorism. (Whether this makes sense or not.) Knowing this and knowing the damage it causes to defend a Muslim blindly, why do we keep doing it? For the sake of "innocent until proven guilty". For the sake of defending 'a brother'? I know for some people OBL will never be guilty. Never. No matter what evidence you bring. We're doing a disservice to Islam by arguing over OBL. We're not a court of law. We will never be able to change public opinion in this. So we need to dissassociate ourselves from a single controversial person and get back to the teachings of Islam. Because when you defend OBL you are defending terrorism and justifying it. That's the way it works in people's minds, until you can fix the way people think you will not be able to change that association, ergo we have to change the way we are defending Islam in this matter. Please think about it, think about it for the sake of dawah, for the sake of Islam. The prophet [saw] never did something without thinking about its far-reaching effects. Even if it was the "right" thing to do, he always kept in mind what people would automatically think, public opinion is important. We are not any less Muslims by not defending OBL. We are just acting in the best interests of Islam, the rest we leave up to Allah. |
| 02/20/03 at 07:17:31 |
| jannah |
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board |