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| Isaac or Ismael? |
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| Kathy |
| 02/14/03 at 12:34:25 |
| [slm] and Greetings of Peace, I was thinking of this as a handout for my interfaith meeting, to go along with my presentation. What do you think? Seekers... I am looking for your opinion also! Does this make you question the fact that there may be a mistake? or am I wrong... give me details to your explanation! [code] Isaac or Ismael? 1. Hagar and Abraham were wife and husband. Genesis 16:3 2. Ismael was the first born son. Abraham was 86 when Ismael was born and 100 when Isaac was born Genesis 16:16, 21:5. When Isaac was about 2, Ishmael was making fun of him at a celebration. Genesis 21:8-10. 3. The Covenant and Household Circumcision was with Ismael. Abraham was 99 years old, therefore Isaac was not born yet. Genesis 17: 24-27. 4. Isaac was circumcised a year later. Genesis 21:4-5 5. Both sons are recognized heirs by law. Genesis 15:4, Deuteronomy 21:15-17 6. Ishmael will have many descendants. Genesis 16:10, 17:20, 21:13, 21:18. Areas of concern: God said “Take your son, your only son Isaac...” Genesis 22:2 Is Ishmael a teenager or a small child? Genesis 16:16, 21:5, 21:8-10. Hagar puts the child/baby on her back. Genesis 21:14 Genesis 15:4And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 16:3And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 16:16 And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 17: 24-27 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 17:25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 17:26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son. 17:27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him. 21:4And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him. 21:5 And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him. 21:8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned. 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 21:13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. 21:14And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. 21:18. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest,... Deuteronomy 21:15-17 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: 21:16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: 21:17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of allthat he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his. [/code] All mistakes are mine... I wrote this. |
| 02/14/03 at 12:38:40 |
| Kathy |
| Re: Isaac or Ismael? |
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| Anonymous |
| 02/15/03 at 01:24:54 |
| Hello! Peace be upon you! Well, I know that the Quran does not specify which son is killed... and in Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation, he notes that although the majority of scholars state that the sacrificed son is Ishmael, there are disagreements among them. However, both Islamic and Jewish traditional sources agree that "nation of people" to be born out of Ishmael refers to Muslims (and we know from history that the Prophet Muhammad {pbuh} could trace his lineage back to Ishmael). The handout is excellent, however, what kind of discussion are you planning/intending/expecting to get out of this? It sounds like you are making a case to show Christians? Jews? (who is your audience?) that there are omissions, or mistakes within their holy text. No one expects others to take their own religious text literally -- so why do that to others? There is a huge religious narrative that goes along with these verses from the Bible. A religious text is not static...it comes with baggage, and we need to acknowledge this. I am not 100% sure how Jewish scholars interpret these verses, but a case can be made that *because* God later commands Hagar to be expelled, Isaac indeed is Abraham *only* son. Who knows how many commentaries, midrash, or other narratives have understood these passages. And who knows how Christian scholars understand these verses. From a metaphorical view, the son can be seen as Jesus...especially when God provides the alternate sacrifice (and animal caught in a thicket...wood symbolism echoing Jesus? sacrifice on the cross). Personally, if you are looking for an interfaith dialogue, what is more important, more wonderous to instill faith and love and peace among us, is to concentrate that Abraham made a sacrifice...his own son...and recognizing that act of absolute obedience and submission to God is more important. With peace. |
| Re: Isaac or Ismael? |
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| Caraj |
| 02/15/03 at 01:39:12 |
| Kathy, I just wanted you to know, I really appreciate this post. As one who is seeking and trying to find the truth where her heart is 100% convinced, this give me something to research and think about. What ashame it is that we all disagree (Muslim, Christian and Jew) When we all should be loving and caring for one another and treating all as God/Allah would have us. Loving, forgiving and being encouraging and uplifting. Thank you for giving me something to think about and research. Salaam, Caraj |
| Re: Isaac or Ismael? |
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| jannah |
| 02/15/03 at 02:03:20 |
| kathy [wlm] just wondering about how ur using this like anonymous. it is like a philosophical scholarly type thing or trying to prove that it was ismail. cause even in the Quran it does not mention the name of the son and it could be a contentious point with christians and jews?? maybe concentrating on the similarities would be better for an interfaith environment. |
| Re: Isaac or Ismael? |
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| Kathy |
| 02/15/03 at 09:55:03 |
| [slm] Hmm... yes you are right, I surely do not want to put anyone on the defensive right before the presentaion begins! Instead of a hand out, I will keep it with my notes, incase anyone asks. I was recently on a TV talk show explaining Hajj. In the pre-interview a priest and I had this discussion, which is what prompted me to write up this point. In dawah, similarities are more important, with the exception of Allah and thier god. Thanks for reminding me. Regarding Ishmael and the Islamic thought, I too had this question a couple of years ago and did some heavy research. I remember I was satisified with it not being Isaac. Reasonings included the Biblical source and other Scholorly opinions. If I find it, again, I will post it. Check this: http://63.175.194.25/index.php?cs=prn&ln=eng&QR=5522&dgn=3&dgn=2 |
| 02/15/03 at 11:11:31 |
| Kathy |
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