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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Calling you up to the carpet |
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| Dude |
| 02/21/03 at 14:15:39 |
| To start, Jannah, your last post here ( http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=ummah;action=display;num=1044922559 ) was very well said. I'm going to try to stay off the topic of OBL. I see your point. Having said that, however, I'm disappointed I didn't get the opportunity to respond before you closed the thread, so here it goes. Bhaloo posted this: [quote]Dude, you haven't provided any proof for anything, and are embarassing yourself. You haven't provided ANY proof for anything other then to sit here and argue like a child that "OH I'M RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG". What kind of proof is that? I would have thought by now we would be beyond something like this and much more advanced in our discourse. The world's biggest terrorists are the United States government and this has been proven time and time again here on this board with countless articles, with terrorist activities committed by the US government in foreign lands, the middle east, south america, asia, africa, etc. (take for example the school of the americas: http://www.soaw.org/) The Bush family has done far more crimes against humanity then Hitler did. I personally believe that the acts on 911 involved Israel and the US government, as they were the ones to most benefit from this, i.e. stealing the oil and removing any threat to the security of "israel". Just like the war in CHechneya, we learned recently a few months ago that the bombs planted there were by government forces, a general in the Russian army admitted this. And here the Russians are calling the Muslims fighting there for their lives as terrorists when it was the Russians that carried out these attacks. For months they had been saying that Muslims terrorists were alleged to have carried out these acts. May Allah (SubHana Wa Ta`ala) grant the Muslims there the highest place in paradise, and grant them victory over their oppressors. AMEEN. We live in the ultimate age of illusion. The ONLY reason the US bombed Afghanistan was because the Taliban didn't like the deal that Bush's oil buddies were offering them, its documented and was posted here before. The US government is like the mafia, threatening small countries, and doing extortion. And they have put evil dictators into power into these countries. Saddam Hussein was supported by the US years ago and put into power by him, and was supplied with chemical weapons by the US government. The countless articles that I have put up here have shown. this. Yes, the articles are more then 1 or 2 sentences, so maybe that's why people haven't bothered reading them or listening to the proof, instead they listen to what Bush and Ashcroft says, believing that whoever is labeled a terrorist by them is a terrorist. Its sad that people have stopped thinking and looking at the reality around them. Look at the news in other countries, and open your eyes to what's going around. The news is very different in other countries, check the BBC out for example. And what do you know about religion? You aren't ANYONE to even judge who is or who isn't a devout christian or muslim. What kind of thing is that for you to even be saying? I mean your whole belief system is based on what YOU deem to be right or wrong, it has no basis or proof other then what you feel is right. Please provide proof on what is a devout Muslim from the Quran, Sunnah, or the sayings of the sahabi (i.e. Islamic sources, because thats how we do things, with PROOF), and how your false accusations coincide with this. If you can't then stop your allegations. [/quote] People will accuse me of having a typical American point of view. Not quite. I’m Canadian, and our media spins here are closer in comparison to the BBC than ABC. I think Bush is a blithering idiot who panders to popular Yank opinion, regardless of the damage he does to the US in the international community. Bhaloo, you’re obviously a conspiracy theorist. You are politically bent to try and force all around you to beleive what you do. To make such an outrageous statement such as “The Bush family has done far more crimes against humanity then Hitler did” just goes to show you’re uneducated. Read up on the mass slaughter of millions of Jews in WWII, and why countries like Canada and the US sent it’s young men over to Europe to die, in the hope of bringing peace to Europe. For ANYONE to make a statement like this…no words but mind-boggling come to mind. Actually, a few other four letter words do, which I won’t print. On top of this, you have a great sense of humor. To quote you:“I personally believe that the acts on 911 involved Israel and the US government, as they were the ones to most benefit from this, i.e. stealing the oil and removing any threat to the security of "israel".” That’s just plain laughable, and quite the spin to get there. I can see Dubya cooking this one up…“Let’s conspired to summarily slaughter 5,000 of our own people, on our home turf. Better, let’s blow up the hubs of our economic activities, and the oval offices at the same time. This will only cost us BILLIONS and BILLION of dollars in added security, and lose us BILLIONS and BILLIONS more in the inevitable economic slow down. We can then spend BILLIONS and BILLIONS on attacking Afghanistan. This will give us the perfect excuse to attack Iraq, even if I would have done that anyway. Hey, while we’re at it, we’ll kill a battalion of our Canadian allies in a “friendly fire” accident, just to throw any conspiracy theorists like that guy Bhaloo on that website I post at (I go as Dude, and pose as a Canadian) off the scent. That guy keeps comparing me to Hitler, so I’m going to really show him now!” Good comedy Bhaloo!:D Boy, I don’t think even Dubya could have even come up with that one, but I’m sure that routine goes over well in your weekly gatherings with your friends. Good on ya! ;) Some of you obviously get all offended when I post an unpopular opinion. No big deal to me, because I can take it. What I see here is a man who shows blatant blind faith towards his religion, and towards others who are followers of the same religion. Quite frankly, I’m shocked that more people don’t take this guy to task when he makes an outrageous comparison of Bush to Hitler. I wonder how the millions of Jewish people in the world who actually lost relatives in the Holocaust feel about that? If somebody is going to post such an outrageous statement, of course I’m going to take the pi** out of him. What I say is that I feel anyone can claim to be religious, but if you condone the acts of known terrorist, you quite obviously don’t embody the qualities of a man or woman who is truly worthy of “God’s Praise”. One can follow the teachings of his or her religion as strictly as they want, and believe in everything that is written in those books of faith (the Bible, Quran, etc…), but that doesn’t excuse them from knowing the differences between right and wrong. |
| Re: Calling you up to the carpet |
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| WhatDFish |
| 02/21/03 at 14:29:38 |
| Dubya and Adolf :D I really must object to your comparison of George Bush with Adolf Hitler. Hitler was a brave soldier, twice decorated in World War I, and you did not get that for nothing in the Kaiser’s army. He earned a modest living as an artist in pre-war Vienna, later he wrote Mein Kampf, and had a strong interest in opera, so he had at least some literary, artistic and musical abilities. In gaining power, he saw himself as a man with a mission. And he did it all without any family connections whatsoever. What can you say about Dubya? Jim Manners, Jeddah published 19 February 2003 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| Re: Calling you up to the carpet |
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| Dude |
| 02/21/03 at 14:56:24 |
| Can't say much about Dubya. Even the best education you can buy didn't help this guy...he's about as smart as a bag of hammers. Hitler was a genious, and no doubt a great leader. He was also the single worst dictator, mass murderer, rasist, and threat to human kind the world has ever known. Who do you think would have been the next group to die in the concentrations camps? Last I looked, Arab Muslims don't exactly fit the ideal "Arian" profile. Men like Hitler (and Saddam, Milosovic, among others) are, quite obviously, better off dead. |
| Re: Calling you up to the carpet |
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| panjul |
| 02/21/03 at 15:14:46 |
| [slm] Sure it would be nice to see Sadam dead. He's hurt too many muslims. But that doesn't mean that just for one guy you bomb the entire country! Just like it wasn't right for the hijackers to go after the American people when their dispute was with our government. (remember OBL discussions are banned now!) The U.S. knew what kind of a man Saddam was back when the were *supplying* him with CHEMICAL wepaons and encouraged him to use it against the Iranians. The greatest threat to America is our own government and people who don't know anything about it's policies. I encourage you to dig up diclassified govt. documents in a library and read what the govt. knew about Saddam, and the reason that they supported him was becuse he was a monster! And the US loves monsters as long asi the monsters will be of some benefit to them. If the average person read all that govt. stuff they wouldn't even put it out! They know that only nerds who are into research and a few nerdy journalists read that stuff only and when they raise their voices, the public doesn't care becuase they are too involved with shopping. I was reading in my history textbook about the Spanish-American war and one evengelical Christian leader (i will post his name later) said that the "hallmark of civilizations is the desire to acquire more material things." :-[ So he advocated colonizing other people so that their products will have a market and converting the uncivalized people to Christianity. Sounds all to familiar to me, in this age's context. |
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| sofia |
| 02/21/03 at 15:23:50 |
| Peace, Dude - [quote]People will accuse me of having a typical American point of view. Not quite. I’m Canadian, and our media spins here are closer in comparison to the BBC than ABC. I think Bush is a blithering idiot who panders to popular Yank opinion, regardless of the damage he does to the US in the international community.[/quote] "Blithering idiot" - maybe. "Yank" - not quite. Bush is die-hard southerner (a "yank" usually connotes someone from north of the Mason-Dixon line. He doesn't usually agree with "yank" opinion). [quote]To make such an outrageous statement such as “The Bush family has done far more crimes against humanity then Hitler did” just goes to show you’re uneducated. Read up on the mass slaughter of millions of Jews in WWII, and why countries like Canada and the US sent it’s young men over to Europe to die, in the hope of bringing peace to Europe. [/quote] I'm not sure if you know this, but the Bush family goes way back in world politics, and some say, even had a little something to do with the Holocaust (directly or indirectly). God knows best. The fact that you can't stomach "conspiracy theories" shouldn't make you dismiss something that goes against the norm so quickly. Not everything that you don't know, isn't true. You seem to convey that a lot in your messages. Quite frankly, the average American knows much more about the Holocaust than the average German. We have museums, books, movies, television specials, you name it. We can't get enough of the Holocaust. It's a Hollywood favorite, if that tells you anything. I'm not sure it will. So if you get a chance, please read "The Holocaust Industry," by Norman G. Finkelstein, whose parents were victims/survivors. Anyhow, the Holocaust was real, and I'd be an idiot if I tried to deny it. I'd also be an idiot if I thought there weren't more "holocausts" that you and I weren't taught in grade-school, that took even more lives. There are plenty of genocides happening even today, so read up on it and their actual repurcussions. Sorry, the news won't help you there. And unfortunately, not every genocide gets the special title of "holocaust" by our history writers. I've mentioned this before, but think about this: the US government has repeatedly refused reparations for descendents of African-American slaves (slavery occurred on US soil), yet endorses reparations for Holocaust victims and in some cases, their beneficiaries (which did not occur on US soil). If most of us knew the way voting goes at the UN, we'd be even more astounded at the hypocrisy in the way the US votes against the world (along with Micronesia and Israel, it's sometimes the only country that votes the way it does, to the indignation of other nations). So personally, I don't care how Bush or any other leader "panders." Most leaders don't walk the talk, anyhow. It's the policies that matter, which we only have very superficial knowledge of, unfortunately (not that good sources aren't out there, we've just been brainwashed, like sheep, into accepting popular rhetoric at face value). |
| NS |
| 02/21/03 at 15:24:30 |
| sofia |
| Re: Calling you up to the carpet |
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| Dude |
| 02/21/03 at 17:26:03 |
| Sofia, Nice, well articulated post. Sorry on the "Yank" pigeonhole...it's just what a lot of us non-Americans call you guys. Just like we call the English "Limeys", and how my Yank friends always call me "Canuck", even though I'm not a lumberjack. I am a Hoser, though. ;) I think you get the theme of my post. I know very little about the Bush family past George Sr. I'm sure, however, if you look closely into the family tree of many, you'll easily dig up some ugly history at some point. I don't see any real value in that. For Bhaloo's purposes, he was referring to the immediate history, and I think it is an absolutely obscene comparison. Yes, up here in Canada, we often joke about the Americans, and their "Hollywood" versions of WWII. We have a very proud history in our part in WWII, and were the first outside nation to send troops over seas into battle. We may depend too much on the US military force for protection now, but back then, Canada was as much a contributor to the Allied effort as the US. For the record on the impending war, I've made my views known in another thread. I agree: bombing one country to oust one man seems inane, and may not even prove effective. I can't stomach the though of attacking Iraq right now, but if it happens, Canada will be sure to change it's stance and do it's part in providing support in one way or another, just like we always have (except Vietnam). |
| Re: Calling you up to the carpet |
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| Banu |
| 02/21/03 at 19:10:11 |
| Dude said and I quote " why countries like Canada and the US sent it’s young men over to Europe to die, in the hope of bringing peace to Europe" Unquote. And of recently in the American media tirade against France this point has been brought up time and again of how U.S. had sacrificed its soldiers in World War II. This would imply that the U.S. just came rushing in to rescue Europe immediately after the war started. While the claim is true in Canada case for she entered the War a week after Britian and France declared war on Germany the same is not true in America case. The U.S. never declared war voluntarily until 10th December 1941. True it help Britain with lend-lease agreement to overcome the burden of financial cost of war. It was only after the attack on Pearl Harbour that Hitler declared war on the United States on 11th December 1941 under the Tripartite pact although Germany was not bound to do so because the pact stipulated Germany assistance ONLY if Japan is attacked. Thus it is due to the blunder of Hitler that the U.S. was forced to enter the war only after Germany first declared war on her. The United States did not declare war on 8th December as they did it on Japan. |
| Re: Calling you up to the carpet |
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| Dude |
| 02/21/03 at 20:02:51 |
| [quote]And of recently in the American media tirade against France this point has been brought up time and again of how U.S. had sacrificed its soldiers in World War II. This would imply that the U.S. just came rushing in to rescue Europe immediately after the war started. [/quote] I was being a little more diplomatic, but you're bang on. I often roll my eyes when I hear Americans thump their chests about "saving France" from the Germans. The US didn't volunteer its men until very late in the game, and only after they were attacked. But then, they "won" the war for Europe. Whatever. If any one country should be commended for the sacrifices, you need to look at Russia for their loses. By far the most sacrificed. |
| Re: Calling you up to the carpet |
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| panjul |
| 02/21/03 at 22:18:50 |
| [slm] Actually, the Americans owe French big time becuase had it not been for their support they would still be a British colony. So far as I see America owes France, not the other way around! |
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| bhaloo |
| 02/21/03 at 23:08:33 |
| [slm] I'm in a hurry as some dude is coming over. So I'll address one thing briefly. [quote] People will accuse me of having a typical American point of view. [/quote] *points finger at self* I find most of your posts to be typical of American non-Muslims, with little or no proof to them, and largely based on what you see on a very biased media. Your responses are emotionally based with no substance and therefore should be completely disregarded. [quote] Not quite. I’m Canadian, and our media spins here are closer in comparison to the BBC than ABC. [/quote] I'm not sure how close it is to the BBC. [quote] To make such an outrageous statement such as “The Bush family has done far more crimes against humanity then Hitler did” just goes to show you’re uneducated. [/quote] Really? :D I think most people here believe me (except for the American non-Muslims [and Canadian non-muslim]) When I went to school they taught us incorrectly that 6 million jews died in the holocaust. (note i've never denied the holocaust, but what the Bush family has done is far worse, to put things in perspective for people such as yourself that are "educated"). I later learned that there were less then 4 million jews in that part of the world (or maybe it was in the whole world [i forgot off the top of my head], so how could 6 million have died? ) Many sources I came across said less then 2 million, but the analysis was not very detailed. However, a very detailed study here has shown that between 300,000 to 600,000 Jews died in the holocaust. http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p335_Nordling.html Now its well established that over 500,000 children in Iraq died from sanctions imposed on them by the US and Britain (not to mention the other horrible crimes against humanity the Bush family has done in the rest of the world). Look at the history of America in the last 100 years. Everytime the country was in a recession, how did they get out of it? They went to war, that was the only way. They knew all about Pearl Harbor before it happened, haven't you read articles on it. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/McCollum/ They needed to go to war then, just like America needs to go to war now, to get the oil to boost up the economy. That's what happened in 1991, the US told Saddam to invade Kuwait, they went in, got Kuwait to pay for all of the military expenses, drove oil prices down to less then the price of what bottled water cost, used all their old weapons on Iraq. And now they are going to do it again, but this time they'll keep the oil in "escrow" make Iraq pay for the war with the oil, pump it out at 1/20th the face value. Ok, i think the guy is here, gotta go, more later. :) |
| 02/21/03 at 23:56:01 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: Calling you up to the carpet |
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| Banu |
| 02/22/03 at 14:33:34 |
| [wlm] Not only Kuwait but Saudi Arabia, U.A.E. and perhaps Qatar as well paid for the first gulf war cost in addition to Germany and Japan. Saudi Arabia alone paid somewhere between 70-80 billion with Kuwait perhaps exceeding Saudi Arabia. Germany was forced to pay and I remember having read at that time a comment by a German columnist that they will recover it some day with interest from the U.S. |
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| sofia |
| 02/23/03 at 20:25:56 |
| Peace, Dude [quote] I'm sure, however, if you look closely into the family tree of many, you'll easily dig up some ugly history at some point. I don't see any real value in that. For Bhaloo's purposes, he sas referring to the immediate history, and I think it is an absolutely obscene comparison.[/quote] We're not talking "family tree" skeletons, we're talking Prescott Bush. Don't worry, most Americans haven't heard of him either, unfortunately. http://www.citypaper.net/articles/011801/sl.slant.shtml I actually don't have much interest in this topic; only commenting b/c I think it's important to use different types of resources to research a topic before we dismiss it's connection to whatever we're commenting on. The above link is just one example, not that I have a particular fondness for the Philly City Paper. Just a suggestion. |
| NS |
| Re: Calling you up to the carpet |
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| yunus |
| 02/27/03 at 00:14:05 |
| bhaloo I agree with much of what you have said except i would be careful about what you say about hitler. There has been an attempt by racist inept nazis to reinvision what happend under the halocost it is pretty well substantied that Hitler killed millions of jews christians gypsys gays diabled and socialists somewhere around 12 million altogther. In fact the Germans kept substantial records on this area. Any way even if Hitler only killed 300,0000- 600,000 innocent jews which is a lie 1 would be to many Furhter Dude It is a diservice to the victims of the halocost to even try and equate Milosevic and Saddam with hitler without including Sharon, Bush, Nixon, Bush Sr, Regean, Johnson, eisenhower, etc etc |
| Re: Calling you up to the carpet |
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| Dude |
| 02/27/03 at 14:14:51 |
| [quote]Furhter Dude It is a diservice to the victims of the halocost to even try and equate Milosevic and Saddam with hitler [/quote] Holly smokes...I think we are somewhat agreeing on something. Mark the date. I wouldn't venture to equate any other leader in recent history to Hitler. Whatever your opinion may be on leaders like Milosevic, Saddam, Sharon, Bush, Nixon, Bush Sr, Regan, Johnson, Eisenhower, etc., etc., I think it is absolutely asinine and irresponsible to compare them to the direct atrocities Hitler committed on his victims. I'm sure I have stated in the past (either here or elsewhere) that Milosevic & Saddam are of the same mindset (I'd prefer not to get into an argument about the others here), but in no way do they have the capabilities to inact such widespread slaughter as the German War machine did. |
| 02/27/03 at 14:18:57 |
| Dude |
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