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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| Rameeza |
| 02/26/03 at 17:25:56 |
| [slm] Whats the backing behind the idea that a person who dies in the name of jihad gets 72 or 27 [dont know which] virgins claim??? ??? ??? Not to sound rude but as a woman this sounds rather offensive. The whole idea of rewarding with virgins sounds unsettling. It would be ok if the reward was a pious woman or chaste woman. Please shed some light cause many people at my work place are asking me this question too. I would like to take this oppertunity to start an Islamic convo. Jazaka Allah |
| Re: 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| bhaloo |
| 02/26/03 at 21:02:34 |
| [slm] What is offensive about this? What about in the Quran when it mentions rewards for men and women? As a member on this board once told me many years ago, Allah (SWT) knows what motivates men and women. al-Miqdam b. Ma'dikarib reported that Allah's Messenger said: "The shaheed receives six good things from Allah: he is forgiven at the first shedding of his blood and he is shown his abode in Paradise, he is preserved from the punishment of the grave, he is kept safe from the Greatest Terror (cf. Surah al-Anbiya: 103), he has palced on his head a crown of honor a ruby of which is better than the world and what it contains, he is married to seventy-two wives of the maidens with large dark eyes (Ar. al-Hoor al-‘Een), and is made an intercessor for seventy of his relatives." In brief, this hadith is sahih and authentic according to Imam al-Tirmidhi, Ibn al-Hajr and others. For details, please continue reading… (1) Imam al-Tirmidhi reports this hadith in his Sunan under "Fada'il al-Jihad 'ann Rasul-Allah" (Virtues of Jihad Reported From the Messenger of Allah) under "Fi Thawab al-Shaheed" (Rewards of a Martyr): Imam al-Tirmidhi classifies this hadith as “hasan sahih gharib” which means he considers this report to be sahih and authentic (as stated by Ibn al-Hajr in Fath al-Bari under hadith # 2587). This hadith is found in “Mishkat al-Masabih” # 3834, where Sh. Al-Albani declared it to be sahih. Ibn Hajr discusses the quantity of maidens in Paradise in at least two places in Fath al-Bari, under hadith # 2587 and 3006 of Sahih al-Bukhari. He seems to accept al-Tirmidhi’s authentication of this hadith. Imam Ahmad also reports this hadith which explicitly mentions the “seventy-two maidens” (see hadith #16553 in Musnad). This report of Musnad is fair (“hasan”) according to Ibn al-Hajr (see his commentary of hadith # 2587 of Sahih al-Bukhari). Ibn Hajr says the hadith in Sahih al-Bukhari that mentions two wives (#3006) means “two wives of this dunya,” whereas this hadith of Sunan al-Tirmidhi mentions al-Hoor al-Een which are not from the women of this dunya. Mulla Ali al-Qari states that it is possible that seventy-two maidens is the fewest that a shaheed will have. |
| Re: 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| panjul |
| 02/26/03 at 22:05:17 |
| As a member on this board once told me many years ago, Allah (SubHana Wa Ta`ala) knows what motivates men and women. So just good old heaven motivates women and a lot of sex + just good old heaven motivates men? so when my husband says that he's not inspired by it, that you will get 72 virgins in heaven, is he the oddball out? |
| Re: 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| Rameeza |
| 02/27/03 at 11:51:08 |
| [slm] See I have heard that Muhammad PBUH has said that those who men and women who are dutiful to their spose are going to be able to chose from the best of people in heaven. I remember that he even said that a good woman can even choose him. But the 72 virgins? I have never heard of this hadith. Plus as the sister (Punjul) above says, it seems like a bit of a double standard. Rather patriarchal. From my understanding of Islam, is a religion that does NOT boast of this type of thing. This statement is telling women that the brothers are only motivated by the reward of physical fulfillment, and above this it makes it sound like the 72 virgins have no say in it. Almost makes them look sacrificial. Brings this whole struggle to excel in the eyes of a creator to a mere primal level. If as you say, the Hadith are Sahih then I am going to accept. But I will feel uncomfortable when questioned by non-muslims to say just accept cause it says so. Most of the time, I have found that Islam provides good explanations for things since Allah repeatedly says 'For those who REFLECT' (think, ponder etc). |
| Re: 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| lightningatnite |
| 02/27/03 at 19:01:04 |
| asalamualaikum wa rahmatallah, This hadith has nothing to do with sex. Please be very careful. There are no impurities in jannah. Sex, by nature produces impurities. One has to perform a special ablution to remove one from a state of *impurity* after it. Let us observe some hayaa also, inshaAllah. The jannah is pure. There will be a river of wine in jannah. Will this motivate a drunkard to go to paradise because there is wine there? It is not the type of wine we can conceive of. It will be pure wine with no harmful properties...and we cannot imagine how this can be. However, we can understand the benefits and enjoyment that it will bring. Lust is something condemned in Islam. Let us not complicate matters by speaking about the hadith, which is not properly translated. The Quran itself mentions that there will be Hur and youths in jannah. What does it mean that there will be Hur in jannah? The Quran describes them as pure, like pearls. Why does Allah refer to pearls? Because the whiteness of a pearl indicates that not even a little bit or essence of impurity has touched it. Virgin in the english language has that connotation, (virgin olive oil, etc) and represents an object of purity. Noone can deny that a virgin young woman is traditionally the ultimate example of hayaat and purity. We can never conceive of the pleasures of Jannah, it is far beyond our comprehension. The earliest salaf have indicated this. However, when we are there, inshaAllah, we will be given things in simlitude. We may think "this fruit is like something from the dunya", but there will be no comparison, it will be far greater in splendour. The greatest pleasure in Jannah will be seeing Allah, and hearing the "Salam", enter in peace :) Allah is pure and loves those who are pure. |
| 02/27/03 at 19:06:40 |
| lightningatnite |
| Re: 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| bhaloo |
| 02/27/03 at 21:58:01 |
| [slm] Hmmm, I'm going through some of my older emails and discussions I have had in the past (my information is not organized properly and scattered all over, BLAH, but ill put up what i can find in here). Sheikh Munajidd was asked the following question and replied below: I'm wondering will the men from amongst the human race that enters paradise, will they have sexual intercourse with the "HOURIS" women in the paradise . Answer: Praise be to Allaah. Allaah has prepared for His believing slaves in Paradise that which no eye has seen, no ear has heard and has never even crossed the minds of men, such that even the person who has the least blessings in Paradise will think that he is the most blessed among them. Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri (may Allaah be pleased with him) said that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The lowest of people in status in Paradise will be a man whose face Allaah turns away from the Fire towards Paradise, and shows him a tree giving shade. He will say, ‘O Lord, bring me closer to that tree so that I may be in its shade… Then he will enter his house [in Paradise] and his two wives from among al-hoor al-‘iyn will come in and will say to him, ‘Praise be to Allaah who brought you to life for us and brought us to life for you.’ Then he will say, ‘No one has been given what I have been given.’” (Narrated by Muslim, no. 275) Among the blessings that Allaah has prepared for His slaves are al-hoor al-‘iyn. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “So (it will be). And We shall marry them to Hoor (fair females) with wide lovely eyes” [al-Dhukhaan 44:54] “They will recline (with ease) on thrones arranged in ranks. And We shall marry them to Hoor (fair females) with wide lovely eyes [al-Toor 52:20] Al-hoor al-‘iyn are extremely beautiful, such that the marrow of their shins will be visible from beneath their garments. Every man who enters Paradise will have two wives from among al-hoor al-‘iyn. Allaah says, describing them (interpretation of the meaning): “Therein (Gardens) will be Khayraatun-Hisaan [fair (wives) good and beautiful]; Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinn and men) deny? Hoor (beautiful, fair females) guarded in pavilions; Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinn and men) deny? With whom no man or jinni has had Tamth [opening their hymens with sexual intercourse] before them. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinn and men) deny? Reclining on green cushions and rich beautiful mattresses.” [al-Rahmaan 55:70-76] “And (there will be) Hoor (fair females) with wide lovely eyes (as wives for Al-Muttaqoon – the pious). Like unto preserved pearls” [al-Waaqi’ah 56:22-23] It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The first group will enter Paradise looking like the moon on the night when it is full, and those who follow them will be like the brightest shining star in the sky. Their hearts will be as one, and there will be no hatred or jealousy among them. Each man will have two wives from among al-hoor al-‘iyn, the marrow of whose calves can be seen from beneath the bone and flesh.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 3014) It was narrated that Anas ibn Maalik (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘Going out and coming back for the sake of Allaah is better than this world and all that is in it. And a spot the size of the bow of one of you in Paradise – or a spot the size of his whip – is better than this world and all that is in it. If a woman from among the people of Paradise were to look at the people of this earth, she would light up all that is in between them and fill it with fragrance. The veil on her head is better than this world and all that is in it.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 2587) A man will have intercourse in Paradise with his wives from among al-hoor al-‘iyn and his wives from among the people of this world, if they enter Paradise with him. A man will be given the strength of a hundred men to eat, drink, feel desire and have sexual intercourse. It was narrated from Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The believer in Paradise will be given such and such strength for sexual intercourse.” He was asked, “O Messenger of Allaah, will he really be able to do that?” He said, “He will be given the strength of one hundred (men).” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, no. 2459. He said, (it is) saheeh ghareeb). It was narrated from Zayd ibn Arqam that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “A man among the people of Paradise will be given the strength of a hundred men for eating, drinking, desire and sexual intercourse. A man among the Jews said, ‘The one who eats or drinks needs to excrete!’ The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to him: ‘The excretion of any one of them will be in the form of sweat which comes out through his skin, then his stomach will reduce in size again.’” (Narrated by Ahmad, no. 18509; al-Daarimi, no. 2704) The mufassireen said concerning the phrase “busy in joyful things” (Yaa-Seen 36:55 – interpretation of the meaning): ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood and Ibn ‘Abbaas (mayAllaah be pleased with them both), and Sa’eed ibn al-Musayyib, ‘Ikrimah, al-Hasan, Qutaadah, al-A’mash, Sulaymaan al-Taymi and al-Oozaa’i said concerning the aayaah (interpretation of the meaning), “Verily, the dwellers of Paradise, that Day, will be busy in joyful things” [Yaa-Seen 36:55] they said, (it means) they will be busy deflowering virgins. Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said, according to a report narrated from him, that “busy in joyful things” means listening to stringed instruments. Abu Haatim said: he misheard the phrase iftidaad al-abkaar (deflowering virgins) and thought it was samaa’ al-awtaar (listening to stringed instruments). In fact the correct phrase is iftidaad al-abkaar (deflowering virgins). (Ibn Katheer, 3/564) With regard to children, the scholars differed as to whether children would be born as a result of this intercourse or not. Some said that there would be children if the man wants them, but the pregnancy and birth would take just one hour. Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri (may Allaah be pleased with him) narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If the believer wants a child in Paradise, the pregnancy and delivery will take only an hour, then the child will be the age that the man wants.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, no. 2487; al-Daarimi, no. 2712; Ahmad, no. 11339; Ibn Maajah, no. 4329). And Allaah knows best. We ask Allaah to admit us to Paradise and to keep us far away from the Fire. May He bless us with the highest Firdaws, for He is the One Who is Able to do that. Praise be to Allaah the Lord of the Worlds. |
| Re: 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| bhaloo |
| 02/27/03 at 22:04:26 |
| [slm] Here's some more information from one brother who had some other good information on this but I can't seem to find it now, perhaps a little too much and getting off the topic. "The description of Paradise which those with taqwa have been promised is that in it are rivers of water the taste and smell of which are not changed; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine delicious to those who drink; and rivers of clarified honey (clear and pure) therein for them is every kind of fruit; and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are these) like those who shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels?" [Surat al-Muhammad, 47:15] Let us go over the Tafseer of this verse, as the Prophet (Sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam), his Companions and the taabi`een knew the meaning of the Qur'an The wording, "mathalu-l jannati-llatee wu`ida-l muttaqoon.." is repeated also in Surat ar-Ra`d ayah aya 35. About this phrase Imaam Qurtubi says in the tafseer of Surat ar-Ra`d: Þæáå ÊÚÇáì: "ãËá ÇáÌäÉ ÇáÊí æÚÏ ÇáãÊÞæä" áãÇ ÞÇá ÚÒ æÌá: "Åä Çááå íÏÎá ÇáÐíä ÂãäæÇ æÚãáæÇ ÇáÕÇáÍÇÊ ÌäÇÊ" [ÇáÍÌ: 14] æÕÝ Êáß ÇáÌäÇÊ¡ Ãí ÕÝÉ ÇáÌäÉ ÇáãÚÏÉ ááãÊÞíä. æÞÏ ãÖì ÇáßáÇã Ýí åÐÇ Ýí "ÇáÑÚÏ "Allah has said: <<mathalu-l jannati-llatee wu`ida-l muttaqqoon..>> ("the description of Pradise which those who have taqwa have been promised...") as He, `Azza wa Jall, has stated, <<Inn Allaah yudkhil allatheena aamanoo wa `amilu-SaaliHaat jannaat...>> ("Truly, Allah will admit those who believe and do righteous good deeds to Gardens...", al-Hajj, 14) thus describing these gardens. Meaning a DESCRIPTION of the Garden intended for those who have taqwah (ayy SAFAT al-jannati-l mu`adah li-l muttaqeen). As such previously stated in Surat ar-Ra`d." ["al-Jaami`u li-'aHkaam al-Qur'aan", Imaam al-Qurtubi] He also compares this with "laysa ka-MITHLihi shay'" ("there is nothing like Him"). Which means there is NOTHING LIKE HIM (Allah). It doesn't mean there nothing like his ALLEGORY! Imaam at-Tabari says in his Tafseer: "the grammarians of Basrah have said this means 'thus are the attributes of Jannah' (wa qaal ba`D naHwiyeen al-baSriyeen ma`na thaalak: SIFFAT AL-JANNAH). And thus has Allah said <<wa lahu-l Mathal al-a`laa>> ("..His is the Highest DESCRIPTION"), meaning: And Allaah's DESCRIPTION is the Most High..." ["Jaami`u Bayaan `an Ta'weel Ayy al-Qur'aan", Imaam at-Tabari] Thus the ayah does not mean "and for Allaah is the highest ALLEGORY"! Al-`eeyaathu billaah. Now that we have dismissed this nonsense of "allegory" on a LINGUISTIC level, let us now look at the SUNNAH behind this verse. Ibn Katheer says in his Tafseer: "Imaam Ahmad and Nasaa'i on the authority of Zayd bin Arqam have reported: Some men from the People of the Book came to the Prophet (Sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam), 'O Abu-l Qaasim* You say the Ahl al-Jannah will eat and drink?' The Prophet (Sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) replied, 'YES, by the One in whose Hand is the soul of Muhammad, the men from them will be given the power of 100 men in eating, drinking, intercourse and desire.' (also mentioned in Mu`jam at-Tabaraani and Mustadrak al-Haakim with similar wording and strong isnaad)." * "Abu-l Qaasim" was the kunya or paternal name of the Prophet (Sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam). Ibn Katheer also reports: "`Ikrimah has said "mathal al-jannah" is an ADJECTIVE of it (ayy na`tahaa)". Imaam Jalaal ad-Deen as-Suyuti says about this phrase: "Abi Haatim and Abu Shaykh have reported regarding`Ikrimah: 'in the phrase <<mathal al-jannah>> he said: 'a DESCRIPTION of Paradise' (na`t al-jannah), and NOT AN ALLEGORY FOR PARADISE (LAYSA li-l jannah MATHAL)" Then in his WISDOM, Imaam as-Suyuti says in relation to this about those who deny the attributes of Paradise being DISBELIEVERS: "Khaarijah bin MuS`ab, raDee Allaahu `anhu, said: The Jahmiyyah have disbelieverd in the verses of the Qur'aan. They say, 'Jannah is finite'. For he who has said Paradise is finite, then they have DISBELIEVED IN THE QUR'AN (man qaala tanfad FA QAD KAFARA BI-l QUR'AAN)." ["ad-Durr al-Manthoor fit-Tafseer bi-l Ma'thoor" - Imaam Jalaal ad-Deen as-Suyuti] |
| Re: 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| bhaloo |
| 02/27/03 at 22:13:20 |
| [slm] Shaykh Waleed al-Firyaan was asked the following question. Question: What are the six characteristics of the martyrs (shahid)taught to us from our beloved Prophet Muhammad ? Answer: Praise be to Allaah. It was reported in the hadeeth of al-Miqdaam ibn Ma’di Karb that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The martyr (shaheed) has seven blessings from Allaah: he is forgiven from the moment his blood is first shed; he will be shown his place in Paradise; he will be spared the trial of the grave; and he will be secure on the Day of the Greatest Terror (the Day of Judgement); there will be placed on his head a crown of dignity, one ruby of which is better than this world and all that is in it; he will be married to seventy-two of al-hoor al-‘iyn; and he will be permitted to intercede for seventy of his relatives.” According to another report, the martyr has six blessings from Allaah. According to other reports (the number is) six, or nine, or ten. (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, who said it is a hasan hadeeth. Also narrated by Ibn Maajah in al-Sunan, by Ahmad, by ‘Abd al-Razzaaq in al-Musannaf, by al-Tabaraani in al-Kabeer, and by Sa’eed ibn Mansoor in al-Sunan). ;============================= regarding wine since it was brought up. "...it (the wine) has no bad effects, nor does it cause intoxication) (Quran 37:47) "From which (the wine) they will have no headache, nor will they be intoxicated." (56:19) "white, delicious to the drinkers." (Quran 37:46) |
| Re: 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| panjul |
| 02/27/03 at 22:50:46 |
| [slm] I like Lightningatnite's answer. I just don't know what to make of it bhaloo. Let us observe some hayaa also, inshaAllah. Speaking of which, I remember before the board's appearacne was changed, there was a debate on this topic and someone posted a fatwa or something from someon shiekh who described the hur-ul-ain in heavens having large breasts like mountains. ::) and that was the least of it and that was quite shocking to me. I think that for most people the highlight of heaven is seeing Allah, and just, well, getting into heaven and enjoying the fruits and rivers. And same goes for martyrs. i haven't come across any of the Prophets (S) companions who were pleased to die in the path of peace just so that they could have some huroos in heaven. |
| 02/27/03 at 22:51:53 |
| panjul |
| Re: 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 02/28/03 at 01:30:27 |
| [slm] So we have to share our husbands in Jannah? By the way I hear that we would be united with our spouses in Jannah. What if you dont like your spouse, or will your heart change and you will like them in Jannah? Well all I can say is whatever Allah (swt) does there is wisdom in it, and Allah (swt) knows best... but if you know more please tell. your sis |
| Re: 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| Nafisa |
| 02/28/03 at 11:00:15 |
| [slm] I remember this issue coming up on another message board (the BBC one to be precise) as non-muslims were asking what there was for women because there was lots of descriptions of Jannah for men. I remember the gist of my reply was that there will be equal reward for both men and women, but remember 'equal' doesnt mean 'same'. The descriptions of houris is pretty heady stuff when first reading it. However, any muslimahs who feel disheartened by this should remember that muslim women will be the [i]most beautiful women [/i]of paradise because of the sacrifices of covering up and the hardships of this world that they would have faced. so at least any muslimahs in paradise will be able to smile quite contently at this thought! :) [sub]I have no quotes to back this up but was told by sources i consider trustworthy i.e. my bruv and dad. I learn most of my stuff through talking about stuff.[/sub] Panjul, if your hubby dont like the idea of 72 virgins he can always arrange them into football teams and set up his own football league. That way he can enjoy sport with looking at lovely ladies :) |
| Re: 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| Rameeza |
| 02/28/03 at 11:55:38 |
| [slm] I am reading all the answers but I am wondering what it all implies...? So we all think that there will be 72 virgins? If as stated by some, its not about 'sex', then why use the word 'virgin'? Why not call them pious women? women of good Imaan? etc? |
| Re: 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| lightningatnite |
| 02/28/03 at 15:52:28 |
| [slm] Alhamdulillah we can continue this discussion in good spirit :) It is a very critical and important one. Jazakumallahu khairan brother Bhaloo for your responses. There are two questions that come to my mind. Jannah is not a four dimensional creation. It is beyond our comprehension, it is in the Unseen. Anything there is different from what we experience here. For example, when Allah says in the Qur'an that He has a Face, and a Hand, and a Shin, it is easy for us to say that it is different than the material connotations that we have. Allah says that He will bare His Shin on the Day of Judgment. It is True, but we cannot fully comprehend it. Although it gives us some sense of understanding of His Might. May Allah save us from thinking of it in human terms. In the same way, Allah speaks of Jannah. If we imagine it only in human terms, then surely we are being anthropomorphic. We are trying to describe religious truths in materialistic terms. The other real issue is should one's motivation to obey Allah be sex? This is certainly obedience to one's nafs. We know that the nafs is a lower energy that draws us into the Hell fire. A good reference on this subject is Abdullah Yusuf Ali's Appendix 12, on page 1464, called "The Muslim Heaven". Yusuf Ali's translation of the meaning of the Qur'an is the most common and well accepted version available. Even the Saudis use a version of it in the Haramain and for their dawah efforts. If you don't regard Yusuf Ali as an Islamic scholar, please disregard the rest of this posting. He says "To write about the Muslim Heaven adequately is to describe the spiritual ideals of Islam and its conception of the Hereafter for those who follow the true laws of their being as created by God and as explained in Revelation...This is all the more necessary, as some ignorant critics of Islam imagine that Islam postulates a sensual heaven, and they press into service some garbled versions of what some of our own more material-minded brethren have said on the subject." ... "Certainly whatever good we do benefits our own souls, but the motive with which we should do it should be only as "seeking the glory (literally, Face, Countenance) of God"." "Carnal sex has of course no place in Heaven, but sex in our constitution here has a mental and psychological value, which we can picture in our transformed and perfected Love above. The word Hur, in such passages as xliv. 54, and lii. 20, has been much misunderstood and misrepresented. Grammatically it is not feminine in form, and the companionship of Hurs will be for all in Heaven--men and women (as they were in this life), who will retain their personality but not their carnal attributes. As in the word "angel" in English, there is with it an association of the specially feminine virtues of purity, grace, beauty, innocence, truth, and good will..." Rameeza, I bet you're saying, "What does all this come down to?" There either is 72, or there isn't. I think the most important thing is to realize that religious Truths are not by nature materialistic. If we are not truly spiritual people, we will not be able to understand the depth of Islam in its holistic and comprehensive original form. A materialized understanding of Islam is becoming very appealing in today's world, as we are imbued with the doctrine of materialism from birth. The world is not limited to the four dimensional plane, but as human beings, some people are. Our goal as Muslims is to educate people that Islam is realizing our true human potential in coming to love and know Allah with our hearts and actions and fulfilling our spiritual nature that sets us apart from the animals. |
| 02/28/03 at 16:54:05 |
| lightningatnite |
| Re: 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| panjul |
| 02/28/03 at 22:56:54 |
| [slm] Panjul, if your hubby dont like the idea of 72 virgins he can always arrange them into football teams and set up his own football league. That way he can enjoy sport with looking at lovely ladies lol. that's a good idea! :D yeah right....... ;) anyway lightningatnite, it's nice to see someone else besides me thinks that way. I expressed those same thoughts to someone and they told me that i was a kafir and i should say my kalimah again. ::) >:( oh and the point that really got them angry was that i said the word "hur" or "huri" is not a feminine word. |
| 02/28/03 at 22:57:47 |
| panjul |
| Re: 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| bhaloo |
| 02/28/03 at 23:41:51 |
| [slm] Ok, I couldn't find the brother's email, but looking through Ibn Kathir's tafsir I found part of what the brother had mentioned before. Quran 78:31 Verily for those who have Taqwa, there will be a success. Ibn 'Abbas and Ad-Dahhak both said, "A place of enjoyable recreation." (At-Tabari 24:170) Mujahid and Qatadah both said, "The are successful and thus they are saved from the Hellfire." (At-Tabarai 24:169, 170). The most obvious meaning here is the statement of Ibn Abbas, because Allah says after this, "Hadaiq" and Hadaiq are gardens of palm trees and other things. "And vineyards, and Kawaib Atrab" meaning, wide eyed maidens with fully developed breasts. Ibn Abbas, Mujahid and others have said, "Kawa'ib" "This means round breasts. They meant by this that the breasts of these girls will be fully founded and not sagging, because they will be virgins, equal in age. This means they will only have one age." (At-Tabari 24:170, and Ad-Durr Al-Manthur 8:398. And another point: Also there are 72 wives for every believer who is admitted to Heaven, and not only for a martyr. The proof is a hadith which is collected by at-Tirmidhi in "Sunan" (volume IV, chapters on "The Features of Heaven as described by the Messenger of Allah," Chapter 21: "About the Smallest Reward for the People of Heaven," hadith 2687). It is also quoted by Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir (Koranic Commentary) of Surah ar-Rahman (55), ayah (verse) 72: "It was mentioned by Daraj Ibn Abi Hatim, that Abu al-Haytham Abdullah Ibn Wahb narrated from Abu Sa'id al-Khudhri, who heard the Prophet Muhammad (Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as wide as the distance from al-Jabiyyah to San'a.' Ibn Kathir explained in 'al-Bidayah wa an-Nihayah' that al-Jabiyyah is the name of a suburb of Damascus. "That those 72 wives are virgin is proved by the ayah 74 of the same Surah: "No man or jinn has ever touched them before." [...] Regarding Yusuf Ali, I know he's received some criticism for his views about the after-life (his commentary as far as i know) But anyways, here was his translations on the Quran along with commentaries from him: http://www.islamia.com/Eschatology/paradise_qur'anic_verses_&_commentary.htm Some of his criticism (i haven't verified this) See Kidwai, A.R., 'Abdullah Yusuf Ali's Views on the Qur'anic Eschatology', Muslim World League Journal 12 (5) February 1985, pp. 14-17). (I also came across another piece by Kidawi) I don't see how anything described here is anthropomorphism? ??? We aren't comparing the attibutes of Allah (SWT) with that of His creation. Please let's examine carefully what the scholars of tafsir said. This is why I highly recommend all people have a copy of Ibn Kathir's tafsir. |
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| BroHanif |
| 03/01/03 at 05:27:13 |
| Salaams, Hmm interesting topic, [quote]I think that for most people the highlight of heaven is seeing Allah, [/quote] Totally agree with you on this one, after this encounter it dosen't matter whether one is destined to Jannah or Hell. The ultimate goal of those who worship Allah would be seeing him, truly that is the ultimate reward for me. I also wish to die as a shahid. Forget the damsels and the youths. [quote]I expressed those same thoughts to someone and they told me that i was a kafir and i should say my kalimah again[/quote] Ignorance may I say. Bloody ignorance. Sometimes I wonder who are the real enemies of the Muslims and I think its us with our lack of knowledge, understanding and tolerance. Just yesterday some brother passed a judgemnet that a certain sect were all Kafirs and destined to the fire of hell, I explained to him to be delicate in these matters and walked away. Salaams Hanif |
| NS |
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| AbdulJalil |
| 03/03/03 at 12:47:24 |
| Assalamu Alaikum This is a post that i saw somewhere else: Probably the whole matter of those who have concerns about the subject of men having female companions in Heavens is that they assume that sexual pleasure is the greatest pleasure that anyone can experience in heaven. So there is perahps some feelings of sadness (or even jealousy) associated with this subject from women,who also probably think that they will be wronged by Allah(swt) (astarfirrallah). Allah(swt) says: [Qur'an 4:124] "If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them" 1) Um Salama(May Allah be pleased with her) "complained" to the Prophet(pbuh): Imam Ahmad narrated the Hadith that Um Salama (May Allah be pleased with her) said: "I said "O Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) of Allah. Why aren't we mentioned in the Quran in an equal footing with men?" Then; I was surprised to hear Him call one day from the pulpit: "O people." As I was combing my hair at the moment, I wrapped it up and came close to the door and stood there listening to Him say: "Allah, Mighty and Sublime be He, revealed that (For Muslim men and women; for believing men and women; for devout men and women, for true men and women; for men and women who are patient and constant; for men and women who humble themselves; for men and women who give in charity; for men and women who fast; for men and women who guard their chastity; and for men and women who engage much in Allah's remembrance for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.) [Qur'an 33:35] 2)The women of this world will have an excellence over the al- hoorul-'ayn because of the acts of worships they performed in this world. The prophet(swt) was once joking with an old woman,when he told her that no old woman will enter paradise.The old woman did not realize that the prophet was joking,and she ended up crying because she thought that Heaven was forbidden to elderly women!Then the Prophet (pbuh) told her,through a companion, that she will enter as a young woman! "An old woman came to the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) and said: "O Messenger of Allah, pray to Allah (subhanahu wa ta`ala) that I will enter Paradise." He said jokingly, "O Mother of So-and-so, no old women will enter Paradise." The old woman went away crying, so the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) said, "Tell her that she will not enter Paradise as an old woman, for Allah (subhanahu wa ta`ala) says: (We have created [their Companions] of special creation, and made them virgin-pure [and undefiled]) (Qur'an 56:35- 36)." " [ Reported by al-Tirmidhi, it is hasan] 3) our "nature" in Heaven will not be the same as the one on earth. We will not feel any pain,worries jealousy, griefs ,etc, so if you worry about the al-hoorul-'ayn in this life,you will not worry about them in Paradise. So do not be worry about them here too on earth, sister! [qur'an 43:68-73] "O My slaves! no fear shall be on you that Day, nor shall ye grieve (Ye) who believed Our revelations and were self-surrendered, Enter Jannah, you and your wives, in happiness. Therein are brought round for them trays of gold and goblets, and therein is all that souls desire and eyes find sweet. And ye are immortal therein. This is the Garden which ye are made to inherit because of what ye used to do. Therein for you is fruit in plenty whence to eat." And no one will be miserable in Heaven Abu Sa`id and Abu Hurairah reported: "When the dwellers of Jannah enter Jannah, an announcer will call: (You have a promise from Allah that) you will live in here and you will never die; you will stay healthy in here and you will never fall ill; you will stay young and you will never become old; you will be under a constant delight and you will never feel miserable.[Saheeh Muslim] 4)The greatest of ALL the delights,for BOTH male and females that will be in Heaven, will be to see God,and to feel loved by God: Suhayb report that the Prophet (pbuh) said: "When the people of Paradise enter Paradise, Allaah will say, `Do you want anything more?' They will say, `Have You not brightened our faces, admitted us to Paradise and saved us from Hell?' Then the veil will be lifted and they will not have seen anything more dear to them than looking upon their Lord, may He be glorified and exalted. This is what is meant by `even more.'" Then he recited the verse (interpretation of the meaning): "For those who have done good is the best reward and even more"[Qur'an 10:26] [Saheeh Muslim] Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri (May Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "Allah, the Rubb of honour and glory, will say to the inhabitants of Jannah: `O inhabitants of Jannah!' They will respond: `Here we are! At Your service, O our Rubb. All good is in Your Hand!' He will ask them: `Are you pleased?' They will reply: `Why should we not be pleased, O Rubb, when You have given us what You have not given to any of Your creatures?' Allah will say: `Shall I not give you something better than that?' They will ask: `O Rubb! What can be better than that?' Allah will say: `I shall bestow My Pleasure upon you and I shall never be displeased with you.''' [Al-Bukhari and Muslim]. 5)Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "The lowest place of any of you in Jannah will be that Allah will tell him to express his wish. He will wish and wish again. Allah will then ask him: `Have you expressed your wish?' He will answer: `Yes, I have.' Allah will say: `You will have what you have wished for and the like thereof along with it.''' [Muslim]. 6)There are joys in Paradise that we are not even aware of. These joys could be far far far better than the joys of this world,for both men and women. Let me also add this Hadith from the Prophet(pbuh): "In Paradise there are things which no eye has seen,no ear has heard, and no human mind has thought of." [Narrated in Saheeh Muslim and Musnad Ahmad] there will be things in Heaven beyond our imagination,so do not get trap into thinking that all there is in Heaven is male/female relations. this is again assuming that having a partner will be the greatest of all joys for males and females,but we do not know about all the other magnificent joys of heaven,as implied in the hadith,that Allah(swt) has reserved for the believers.I already wrote previously about the greatest of all the delights in Heaven(seeing God,and feeling loved by God for ever). The "materialistic" pleasures of Heaven are things we can identify with here on earth,but,again,as the hadith imply,we do not know everythng that awaits the believers in Heaven.Those others "things" in Heaven,since we cannot experience them on Earth, we could not relate or completely relate to them,even if God had told us about them. Also,keep in mind that Heaven is about absolute purity,and is certaintly not about filthiness,as the bashers of islam,and their sick minds, would like you to believe. For example,forgive the language here,but it is just to illustrate: no one will urinate,or defecate,or blow their noses,our sweat will be perfumed and smell like musk,etc…. we do not know exactly all there is to Heaven.Rest assured there will be a great reward for every one,and no one will be dealt unjustly. |
| 03/03/03 at 12:52:16 |
| AbdulJalil |
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| Rameeza |
| 03/03/03 at 13:10:35 |
| [slm] Brother AbdulJalil, your email is highly appreciated and makes me realize that no matter who gets what in heaven, all that is MOST important is that Allah is pleased with my soul when I meet him. Compared to the parts of the Quran and Sunnah that describe the hereafter I have usually been more concerned with the parts that describe the expectations that Allah has from us in THIS world. My conern with this statement about the rewards for men in jannah are driven by my fear of makinng a non-muslim think that we belong to a patriarchal religion. Most of my female non-muslim friends are highly impressed by the rights and priviledges of being a woman in Islam. I am glad about this and always pray that this good impression will lead them to finding Allah. AMeen. This statement has got me a bit stuck right now. Polygamy and the Prophet marrying many wives is very easy to explain for it has excellent social benefits and reasons, respectively. I can even go so far as to say that many women are fighteing over the same man in the west because there arn't enough men/per woman and thus, polygamy in some cases is a solution [as long as u abide by the rules for such marriages]. I know enough about Islam to know that it is not rewarding our pious brothers with something as measely as 'sex'. Yet I am trying to find a few sentences to put together that are logical and that will help a non muslim understand these 'statements' that are flying around now. [Note: I live in the US and it seems like I am going to be questioned pretty often about all this due to the state of the world right now. :'(] Jazaka Allahu Khair. |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/03/03 at 21:18:08 |
| [slm] Very well said AbdulJalil, alhumdullilah. May Allah (SWT) reward the person that wrote that abundantly (and if he/she isn't a member of this board, see if you can get them here. :P), and may Allah (SWT) reward you for sharing it with us. :) |
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| humble_muslim |
| 03/05/03 at 06:58:16 |
| AA Look, this is very starightforward for me. A man would be attracted to the idea of having 72 wives. A woman - would she be attracted to having 72 husbands (please answer Rameeza, Panjul). Sometimes when we are having difficulties following the Deen, the ayats and hadith about Jannah (and for that manner jahannam) should make us remember that it's all worth it. Not just the ones about the wives, but all the ayats describing the bounties of Jannah for both men and women. As has been repeatdly pointed out on this board, there is MUCH more to Jannah than the hur. And one final point. If Allah SWT does not feel shame about telling us about hurs, then we muslims should not feel shame in feeling good about it. And Allah knows best. |
| NS |
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| humble_muslim |
| 03/05/03 at 06:59:57 |
| AA Look, this is very starightforward for me. A man would be attracted to the idea of having 72 wives. A woman - would she be attracted to having 72 husbands (please answer Rameeza, Panjul). Sometimes when we are having difficulties following the Deen, the ayats and hadith about Jannah (and for that manner jahannam) should make us remember that it's all worth it. Not just the ones about the wives, but all the ayats describing the bounties of Jannah for both men and women. As has been repeatdly pointed out on this board, there is MUCH more to Jannah than the hur. And one final point. If Allah SWT does not feel shame about telling us about hurs, then we muslims should not feel shame in feeling good about it. And Allah knows best. |
| NS |
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| Rameeza |
| 03/05/03 at 12:06:51 |
| [slm] "Look, this is very starightforward for me. A man would be attracted to the idea of having 72 wives. A woman - would she be attracted to having 72 husbands" Does this mean that our brothers are attracted to the idea of 72 wives? ??? Cause I can say with much certainty that the sisters are not looking for numbers but quality in one. |
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| lightningatnite |
| 03/05/03 at 16:37:59 |
| [slm] May Allah guide us to that which is right. Here is Dr. Muzzamil Siddique's answer: http://www.pakistanlink.com/religion/98/re-02-06.html Q 3. I have heard somebody say that the word "Hoor" in Arabic is genderless. I wanted to verify it with you. If the word "Hoor" is genderless then based on that can we argue that "good women will be awarded with Hoors too?" Currently, most scholars believe that only good men will be rewarded with "Hoors". Is the word "Hoor" only used with reference to men? What will the women be rewarded in the heavens with? (Asher Uddin Fawad, Rodeo, CA) A 3. The word "hoor" is not genderless. It refers to women who have beautiful eyes. In the Qur'an, this word has occurred four times (al-Dukhan 44:54; al-Tur 52:20; al-Rahman 55:72; al-Waqi'ah 56:22). In all these cases it refers to women, not men. The reward in Jannah will be for all the believing and pious men and women. In Surah al-Ahzab (33:35) Allah has mentioned various categories of believers from among the men and women and then He says, "Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a vast reward." Allah says that the Believers will have there whatever their souls desire and whatever will please their eyes. (al-Zukhruf 43:71). So rest assured there is great reward for every one. Whatever is mentioned is only symbolic to make us imagine the beauty and greatness of Allah's reward, otherwise Jannah contains that which is beyond our total imagination and grasp here in this finite world. Allah said in the Qur'an, "No soul knows what is kept hidden for them of joy, as a reward of what they used to do." (al-Sajdah 32:17) The Prophet -peace be upon him- explained this through a Hadith Qudsi: "Allah says that I have prepared for my pious servants in Jannah what no eye has ever seen, no ear has ever heard and no heart or soul has ever imagined." (al-Bukhari, Hadith 3005) |
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| Rameeza |
| 03/05/03 at 17:18:26 |
| [slm] Lighteningatnite, do you wonder why the Quran mensions it [the hoor]though in connection with men? And do you wonder why these rewards are described with regards to men but when it comes to women it does not elaborate? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? |
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| humble_muslim |
| 03/05/03 at 20:51:02 |
| AA Rameeza, you confirmed exactly the point I was trying to make. By his nature, a man can be attracted to more than one woman at the same time. A woman's nature is not like that : to her, like you said, quality is better than quantity. And I would be a liar if I said that I was not attracted to the idea of 72 wives in Jannah. Hey, if that's what Allah SWT is offering me, I'm not exactly gonaa look a gift horse in the mouth. And let me reiterate that there can be nothing "wrong" about this, because Allah SWT is saying this in the Quran. So what's the big deal ? Ok, now it's time to work on getting to Jannah, Inshallah. Maybe I can start by getting out of bed for fajr and going to the masjid... |
| NS |
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| jannah |
| 03/06/03 at 02:58:13 |
| [slm] First this is a hadith and not found in the Quran. Bhaloo you posted some stuff from people saying this is an "authentic hadith", but there are other scholars that say that it isn't. But anyway it's true that martyrs are promised a great reward from Allah. And in heaven, God will reward us with whatever we want -- both men and women shall get their reward. It is impossible to understand how the reality of the Afterlife is. How can we try to understand it? The Quran does try to describe heaven in ways that we can imagine and comprehend, so that it will appeal to us and motivate both men and women. So if this is not your idea of reward then you should ask for something else :p |
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| dirt |
| 03/06/03 at 07:09:16 |
| [slm] Sister Jannah beat me to it. While all of this makes interesting conversation ultimately I think people read too much into it. I mean come on people. Jannah is a place where you can finally be really really happy....forever. 72 virgins or not....I could care less as long as I'm there. You know? [wlm] |
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| Kathy |
| 03/06/03 at 09:17:09 |
| [quote author=dirt link=board=lighthouse;num=1046298356;start=15#26 date=03/06/03 at 07:09:16] ....I could care less as long as I'm there. You know?[/quote] Absolutey! Once a sister told me that she would be greatful to be a laborer in Heaven.. |
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| WhatDFish |
| 03/06/03 at 18:54:45 |
| [quote]Bhaloo you posted some stuff from people saying this is an "authentic hadith", but there are other scholars that say that it isn't. [/quote] mashaa'Allah the muhadditheen of today, who are these 'other' scholars? |
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| lightningatnite |
| 03/06/03 at 18:57:26 |
| [wlm] Sister Kathy!!!! Did everyone know that sis. Kathy is a world famous radio personality? :) Check this out: http://www.jannah.org/window/archives/pathways.ram Sis. Rameeza, I'm not sure what your question is about, could you please be more specific? :) If I catch your drift, it seems you are assuming that the Qur'an mentions rewards in Jannah that are specific to only men. I don't accept this viewpoint. I don't think the mention of the Hur of Jannah that is beautifully interlaced in the Qur'an, when properly understood, has any more appeal to a man than to a woman. Again, this has nothing to do with lust. If you haven't had the chance, please refer to Yusuf Ali's appendix. It is easy to think of Islam as a video game religion...you shoot up a few yahoods and then, by miracle, you've bagged the girls. But in reality Islam is an ocean more vast than all of human knowledge that ever was and that ever will be. We have to study and devote ourselves to Sacred Knowledge and spirtual practice, under the guidance of our shayookh, to even have a taste of it. To think that we'll get all the answers on a message board is a bit idealistic. Cut and paste fiqh cannot fill the spiritual void that we all carry within us. |
| 03/06/03 at 19:02:02 |
| lightningatnite |
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| humble_muslim |
| 03/06/03 at 21:19:54 |
| AA Two brief points. Without wanting to put anyone down, I think it's a very dangerous trend when we start to question the authenicty of hadith because we don't like the sound of them. Secondly, even leaving the hadith aside, Allah SWT tells us in MANY places in the Quran about hurs. So why do I feel that an effort is being made to undermine the importance or meaning of these ayats ? I mean it's there, all over the Quran in black and white : the dwellers of Jannah will have beautiful wives, and a multiple number of them. Nothing to be apologetic about, just strive for Jannah and ENJOY it when you get there!!!! So what's the problem ? Maybe we're all (including myself) getting so much enjoyment out of this world that the next one doesn't seem quiet so inviting to us any more. |
| NS |
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| se7en |
| 03/07/03 at 16:38:00 |
| as salaamu alaykum, Something really beautiful about the nature of shari'ah is that it has a formative structure but also has room for differences of opinion and interpretation, based on the authentic sources. I think one of the problems with "cut and paste fiqh" is that people assume that if you do not follow the interpretation presented by a particular scholar, then you are somehow rejecting the ayah or the hadeeth in question when this is not necessarily the case. I don't mean to be rude here, but Islam Q & A is *not* Islam, and a fatwa from Sh. Munajjid is *not* the same thing as an ayah or hadeeth. A fatwa is an opinion, one you should take seriously if it comes from someone qualified and knowledgeable, but that we should also understand in context, along with other interpretations. I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that people will have beautiful companions in Jannah, as this is what the Qur'an states, and I don't think anyone here is saying that you should question the authenticity of a hadeeth because you don't like what it says -- but I think the point being made is that you should not force a particular interpretation down someone's throat, even if *you* think it's the most authentic or correct. w'Allahu a'lam. wasalaamu alaykum |
| 03/07/03 at 18:24:11 |
| se7en |
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| se7en |
| 03/07/03 at 16:41:48 |
| btw for those of you who are active in daa'wah I hope you are very careful with how you present these ideas and do not falsely attribute to Rasulullah [saw] something he did not say. plz be careful with clarifying what is interpretation/s and what the actual text of a hadeeth, or an ayah from the Qu'ran says. wasalaamu alaykum |
| 03/07/03 at 16:42:20 |
| se7en |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/07/03 at 21:28:53 |
| [slm] First of all I completely agree with The Humble Muslim (and no he's not my spokesman) and I'm kinda surprised at some of the responses given. Responses such as, "this is a wrong translation" or "not everyone agrees with the authenticity of the hadith", or someone rolling their eyes at a Ibn Kathir tafsir of a verse from the Quran!!!!!! Provide proof from scholarly sources to backup your claims and please use adab when posting here. If you don't have it then why cause fitna? Why let your emotions control you? Is it possible that MAYBE you misunderstood what you heard someone say or wrote about? This is my biggest pet peeve on here, people start saying that Islam is this way or that way, and give no proof whatsoever to back themselves up. Sometimes we let our emotions take control of us and we think we know what something means, or maybe we heard something incorrectly or interperted something wrong. I can remember countless times on the board where I saw a discussion and I remembered part of what I had heard before from someone knowledgable but didn't say anything, for fear of saying something wrong. There is no shame at all in saying "I don't know" or keeping silent if one doesn't know or is unsure, in fact it is commendable. I really appreciate it, I mean it, when people take the time to go get proof for what they are saying, instread of blurting out what they *think* Islam is or isn't. Even when I may disagree with their view, as long as their is basis for it from sound scholarly sources, I love them for it. It shows to me that they take this deen seriously and it shows to me that they are respecting me. |
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| jannah |
| 03/07/03 at 22:24:53 |
| [slm] This is a good discussion that we should really examine, especially as it has to do with how we do dawah on the internet. The thing is sure we should back up our claims, but I cringe every time I see a cut and paste of an internet fatwa. Because it is *one* opinion of one scholar on a particular issue or specific question. And there usually are other opinions and yet I or anyone else don't have the time to sit there and write our own fatwas to counter the opinion. And of course I don't believe I or anyone else here has the expertise or legitimacy to write such a fatwa. Nor do we want to go to our scholars and say "Can you write a 3 paragraph fatwa on this subject because people on the internet are writing this... and that?". I don't like allowing cut&paste fatwas anyway, but once it is done, the least someone could do is acknowledge that yes there are other opinions on this issue. This isn't about being emotional or putting one's own view forth. It's about doing what's right for Islam. How many people have left Islam and using the microcosm the message board because of someone's "hard lined" views on an issue. And most of the time this "hard lined" issue can be backed up by all kinds of essays and cut and paste fatwas, while the more moderate view is never even acknowledged because it does not appear on some website. THIS is the real problem. On this message board, it seems like over the last year it's like on any issue, views are presented and the haram view swims to the top. I'll call it the Haram Floating Theory of the Internet. So any issue comes up and people have a whole spectrum of views and even on an Islamic fiqh issue there's a whole spectrum of Fiqh, yet the most hardlined view comes to the fore somehow. I don't know how to explain it.. Almost like a pond and there's all these colors but the minute someone puts in some black ink it's always all black. We have to change this, this is not the right way to do Dawah or even discuss an issue. It's a modern technological mockery of Islam. |
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| jaihoon |
| 03/08/03 at 23:51:09 |
| Khud badalte naheen Quran ko badal dete hain huwey kis darja faqeehane haram be taufiq These people dont change themselves but they change the Quran (by their interpretations). How unfortunate are these custodians of haram (Islam). - IQBAL |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/09/03 at 22:20:16 |
| [slm] I don't think its right to say that there is one scholar's viewpoint listed or that oh, he cut and pasted from this sheikh, so I'm going to ignore his post completely, because "theychange the Quran (by their interpretations). ". This is a very wrong attitude to be developing, and I personally think is a cause of division in the ummah and is a very limited way of thinking. As the Prophet (SAW) mentioned in his farewell khutbah, that if we follow the Quran and Sunnah we will not go wrong. Examine the material being presented and if you disagree with what is being presented, present your scholarly information to back up what your saying. Look at who is being cited as reference and what is being cited. In earlier posts in this thread the following scholars were cited by me: Ibn Hajar's view was cited. You can read about him here: http://www.dar-us-salam.com/a-hafizhajar.htm Imam Ahmad: The founder of the Hanabali school of thought. Imam al-Tirmidhi: his famous hadith collection is part of the "sound six". Ibn Kathir: His famous tafsir of the Quran is used by all, and as far as I know there is no controversy about him nor of any of these great scholars. All of these men were real scholars, they are classical scholars (most from the early generations of Islam). And we see what their view is on this matter with references, and its there for anyone to verify who doubts this or who doubts a sheikh that has related the information or a translation because they think its distorted. Also Imam Suyuti (another great classical scholar) warns us of denying the attributes of Jannah (as I had mentioned from the brother's email earlier. he was actually writing his email to someone that appeared to deny the hoor-al-ain, but a student of the person in question pointed out to me that during a lecture the teacher took the meaning literally, and didn't deny them, and that in the interview he was agreeing to something else.) I personally don't think there is any other valid scholarly opinion on this matter, at least I haven't heard it, and would certainly like to see proofs for this if there is. I think there is a real danger that some people are perhaps taking their imam's opinion out of context or something they read/hear and misinterperted the information. And this would not be the first time this happened here (and I mean no disrespect to anyone by this statement). But I think we have to be very careful when we attribute something to someone. I remember one situation that came up and one brother that I respect a great deal told me he's had it and is going to leave the board because people don't even understand basic concepts like this. It was frustrating for him and it was for me as well when it came up. He's left the board, as has another brother I respect (not for that particular issue but something similiar). We have to be very careful of what we say and do. And a really good book that I think can help us all, especially me, I remind myself first, is a book by Shaikh Ibn Tamiyya, Command Right and Forbidding Evil, and there is a translation of it up here: http://www.java-man.com/Pages/Books/alhisba.html To address the issue of, "the hardline view", coming up. I think here's what happens. There is a discussion that comes up and in general if there's nothing wrong with it no one says anything, but as soon as something wrong is there, people will run to point out the mistakes and try and correct it, and they mean well by it. Of course people are at different levels, and we have to take these things into consideration when advising people, but we also at the same time can't say wrong things. There's a delicate balance, we should show mercy and understanding without brothers and sisters. Look at Abdul Jalil's post, he explained the matter really well, taking into consideration the feelings of the sisters, alhumdullilah. |
| Re: 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| Rameeza |
| 03/10/03 at 10:45:40 |
| [slm] So all the people on this site when questioned by a non muslim would say, "Yes, the muslims believe that when a man sacrifices his life in the name of his religion/God, it leads to the reward of 72 virgins in heaven" and back it up with the above stated sitings in the sunnah??? |
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| humble_muslim |
| 03/10/03 at 11:39:44 |
| AA Sis Rameeza, now you're asking a different question altogether. You're talking about an issue of dawah, and an issue of wisdom in dawah. How you tell someone about Islam is a different issue from what Islam says about a certain issue. Of course you must use wisdom, and invite in the best of ways. I'd say that if the dawah had reached this point (where this specific question is being asked) without some of the fundamental things having been explained prior to this, then there's a problem with the dawah. |
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| jannah |
| 03/10/03 at 12:43:19 |
| [slm] Arshad that is exactly what I mean! [quote]Examine the material being presented and if you disagree with what is being presented, present your scholarly information to back up what your saying. [/quote] The problem is people are becoming online faqih's going to these Q&A sites and getting fatwas and if someone says "err.. there ARE other views out there" they say "Well bring your FATWA like ours and then I'll compare." All that is being presented here is from online website sources. Whatever happenned to all the other sources of Islamic scholarship? All our scholars and teachers and shaikhs, all the Islamic reference books in history, all the speeches, the sayings. What if the information isn't available online? What if I can't find the hadith in the Hadith CDs? Who's qualified here to write an opposing fatwa with daleel let alone interpret someone else's daleel in their fatwa?! This is really dangerious. It's not about "there is one scholar's viewpoint listed or that oh, he cut and pasted from this sheikh, so I'm going to ignore his post completely", it's about admitting that there ARE other sources and other viewpoints out there besides the one's we can cut&paste here. [quote]As the Prophet (SAW) mentioned in his farewell khutbah, that if we follow the Quran and Sunnah we will not go wrong. [/quote] Of course, but why narrow that down to just certain people's interpretation. Islam is a very open and flexible religion for a reason. To accomodate all peoples, times and places. And when human beings take it upon themselves to interpret or use someone else's interpretation in a certain way it becomes narrow. It's our nature. [quote]I personally don't think there is any other valid scholarly opinion on this matter, at least I haven't heard it, and would certainly like to see proofs for this if there is. [/quote] because you haven't heard it does it mean it doesn't exist? [quote]I remember one situation that came up and one brother that I respect a great deal told me he's had it and is going to leave the board because people don't even understand basic concepts like this. [/quote] Basic concept like what? That people should follow a certain fatwa because it is pasted here? [quote] There is a discussion that comes up and in general if there's nothing wrong with it no one says anything, but as soon as something wrong is there, people will run to point out the mistakes and try and correct it, and they mean well by it. [/quote] I'm not sure what you mean here, but I think it's important to show that not everyone thinks this is the be all end all opinion. [quote]There's a delicate balance, we should show mercy and understanding without brothers and sisters. [/quote] Exactly, if there are other opinions on things we should mention them, even if we can't find the 'cut&paste'. People can go out and do their own research with their Imams and knowledgable people, but at least they have that information. I'll give u the perfect made-up example... the covering the feet thing for women. Every couple of months a sister posts on here.. 'I went to a different mosque/somewhere and I didn't cover my feet and the sisters yelled at me..should I wear socks etc..?' Or the reverse.. 'there's a sister at mosque that doesn't cover her feet should I say something to her because I was always taught to cover my feet during prayer, pull my jilbab over etc.' Now let's say someone posts a fatwa "Women Must Cover their Feet During Prayer" with all the nice Hadith etc and this is from a Q&A site that's distinctly Hanbali or 'Ahulul Hadith'. Now the information that is posted is not 'wrong' and to some it is the "complete" "strongest daleel" answer. But is it right? It's not complete because there are other views. We've been taught this by teachers and scholars but what if I can't find on the internet the "Uncovering the Feet is OK (the hanafi view)". What if I go to my Imam ask him, he tells me, and he says I don't want my opinion all over the internet because this is not how we are supposed to do Fatwas, etc. Then it doesn't exist right? Then the opinion doesn't count because there's 'no daleel'. Anyway ignore the example, but that's what's happening on the internet today. |
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| Rameeza |
| 03/10/03 at 13:23:13 |
| [slm] [color=Maroon][/color] Brother, I think if you re-read my initial post and then the one following Panjul's you could see that the questions put by my work people is my motive for posting this topic. Plus, the people who ask this question have never asked me much else about Islam and lead me to believe that they are not interested in any revertion etc. Yet, I have taken every oppertunity to give them an impression of Islam that shows the great place that women enjoy in it. I know that anyone can change and revert as long as Allah wishes it but I don't want to be a tool in making these people get/or spread any negative impression of Islam. Therefore, I have not given anyone any answers on this topic because I feel scared to lead anyone astray and thus have just taken refuge in prayer. As for your reference to fundamental things being explained first, what should I tell them as a background before telling them that this statement about the rewards our brothers are looking forward to is in fact a certainty??? |
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| amatullah |
| 03/10/03 at 20:26:45 |
| Maidens or companions? Adil Salahi, Saudi Arabia. [ Questions and comments can be e-mailed to Br. Salahi at: islam@arabnews.com ] Mrs. F. Ansari of Makkah has written to me that she could not understand verses 70-72 of Surah 55, entitled "The Most Merciful", as she feels that there could be something wrong with the translation. Several translators of the Qur'an include the word "maidens" in the translation of the last of these verses. She asks for a clarification. Let us first of all look at the translation of these verses. Based on the translation by the late Muhammad Asad, we may render the meaning of these verses as follows: "In these (gardens) will be (all) things most excellent and beautiful. Which, then, of your Lord's powers can you disavow? In them there will be (for the blest) companions pure and modest, in pavilions (splendid)." These verses occur within the context of the blessings God will bestow on the dwellers of heaven. The first verse speaks of the beautiful and excellent things that the believers will enjoy in heaven. The Qur'anic text does not specify these, but leaves them expressed in general terms, even with an indefinite article to add to the general sense of the verse. Commentators on the Qur'an mention some reports which give some explanation. For example a report attributed to the Prophet's companion Abdullah ibn Massood mentions that " Every Muslim will have one chosen lady, who has a tent (or a pavilion, to use Mr. Asad's translation) with four doorways. Every day she will receive from God a precious article, a blessing and a gift that were not there previously." The way the verse is expressed admits such interpretation. However, if we leave it in general terms as expressed in the above translation, we remain closer to the sense of the Arabic original. The third verse speaks of "companions pure and modest, in pavilions splendid." The term "companions" is understood, as it occur in Arabic, to be feminine. Hence the added sense in some translations as "maiden companions" or "maidens" on its own. These are described as "pure and modest", which dispels the carnal sense that people associate with the companions that the dwellers of heaven will have. These are described in some Hadiths as "spouses" which may be close to the sense we associate with the word in this life. However, what we should understand in connection with what God grants to the believers whom He admits to heaven is that life there is pure and splendid. It is a life of complete and unadulterated happiness. The purity is ensured by the fact that the desires which we have in this world will not be the same. In fact, when we read about the types of food there we realize that it is unlike anything we have in this world. Nor is it made to satisfy the same sort of hunger. It is given for pure enjoyment. The same applies with the other comforts and enjoyments that heaven offers. They serve a different purpose. For example, the often misinterpreted statements about white-eyed maidens, as in this instance, are not meant to satisfy the same sexual desire, as there will be no procreation in that life. All that is connected with the happiness and comforts in heaven are matters that we cannot understand fully, based on our earthly experience. Therefore, we accept them as they are expressed in the Qur'an and we leave their exact nature to God, trusting that His reward is most perfect, most enjoyable. |
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| eleanor |
| 03/11/03 at 04:44:28 |
| [slm] Rameeza, I think what they are saying is that if the people don't have the basic beliefs - taqwah etc, then they are going to struggle with hadiths such as this one. Once you believe in the oneness of Allah, that he is so great, then you will accept matters such as this unquestioningly. Some disbelievers refuse - refuse - to see the truth. They bring out some obscure hadith and say - "hey, this is so crass, this is what your religion says..". You cannot even take examples from the Qur'an which dispute what they are saying because they say "well hey I don't care what the Qur'an says, I don't believe in the Qur'an.." So what is more important here? You tell them you need to explain the purity and truthfulness of the Qur'an first. When they have grasped that, or if they grasp that, then you will explain the hadith. Tell them you need to walk before you can run, if you get what I mean. I hope this hasn't confused you further? Mistakes are mine. |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/11/03 at 09:40:45 |
| [slm] The Humble Muslim and Eleanor are spot on. ;) I know that a long time ago when I was learning about Islam, there were concepts that were difficult for me to understand i.e. (Allah (SWT) knows all, but why test us then, since He knows what will happen to us or relations with slave women, or people that hadn't heard about Islam, etc), but things became clear to me once my knowledge developed. I don't have time right now to address the questions Jannah brought up, hopefully I'll get to it later tonight, but there was one person that sent me this message in regards to this thread: "I checked out that discussion about the hooris a while ago and was surprised that it was still going on. That single most annoying thing that i found on the board is still there "... but realise that there is another opinion, and that Islam is a really flexible religion..." - of course it is. But that doesn't mean negating what is so clear and the issue of the hooris is just SO clear i don't even know why people bother arguing against it. I think it might be something to do with an inferiority complex which leads them to make Islam more tasteful for non-Muslims, coupled with the fact that we live in a society where only monogamous marriages are allowed. Why is there a need to spend so much time analysing whether the word Hoor is masculine or feminine - that is a side discussion. All you need to do is to gather together the ayaat of the Qur'an regarding Hooris and its clear. Imagine telling a man, that there is the most beautiful woman ever in the house across the street. She's a virgin, and very curvaceous and she's singing about how she longs for him to visit her... what is that man going to think? That when he visits her, he'll engage her in some spiritual discourse? Whats funny is that the 'anti-hoori' camp sound so much like the UK-US axis: "we believe there is a different opinion regarding hooris, but we don't really know who's opinion it is or where it can be found, but trust us, there is." Oh well.. if only times were good enough for this discussion to be the most important of our worries..." |
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| Rameeza |
| 03/11/03 at 12:59:55 |
| [slm] Jazaka Allah sister Eleanor. I think I am going to deal with these people in the manner that you have stated. There are so many things that ALlah has said in the Quran that he has said are going to be things that mankind will not know about [eg the reason behind adding Alif Laam Meem in fron of a sura and many other things that only he knows]. You have been quite clear and have not confused me [note: I am confused to begin with ha ha ha thats another story ;D] Yet I have to say that I am surprised by brother bhaloo who feels that he does not understand why people 'bother' to argue/discuss something that is quite clear to him. My only comment regarding this statement is that, the times in America are such that I want to use every oppertunity I get to present Islam in the best possible light and if it means rehashing something until I get it right I will. Even if this does not lead to a reversion , at least it would stop the spread of negative ideas on Islam to others by my co-workers. |
| Re: 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/12/03 at 01:22:52 |
| [slm] Sister Rameeza, the last post was an email sent to me by someone that doesn't visit the board anymore, regularly (i.e. is an occasional lurker now), and it was their thoughts and views displayed, not mine. Having said that, I'm all for discussions provided there is proof to back up a person's stance. [quote] All that is being presented here is from online website sources. [/quote] That isn't true. I don't think anyone read my posts in their entirety. What I presented were the following: -- an email from a discussion list i used to be on a some time back with various imams from the western world, and other active members in the community. The brother that wrote it is has incredible command of the Arabic language and has access to many shaikh in Saudi Arabia, he recently moved there. He used to be heavily into sufism, and later left that group after spending a long time learning and reflecting. There's much more I can say about him, but this is a side issue. His knowledge is very iimpressive. He's debated with all the missionaries on SRI, especially the ones that have PHD after their names. - another of my posts is from a prominent sufi in western europe that i have had discussions/arguments with, what i put up was from a newspaper article that cited his opinion. - excerpts from Ibn Kathir's tafsir. - Sheikh Munajjid's fatawa, and mashallah the shaikh gives daleel along with the opinion of classical scholars along with their references. [quote] Whatever happenned to all the other sources of Islamic scholarship? All our scholars and teachers and shaikhs, all the Islamic reference books in history, all the speeches, the sayings. What if the information isn't available online? What if I can't find the hadith in the Hadith CDs? Who's qualified here to write an opposing fatwa with daleel let alone interpret someone else's daleel in their fatwa?! This is really dangerious. [/quote] All those are great, and people should really spend the time to look into this and bring forth the evidence. But if one can't find the information, then one shouldn't speak beyond one's capacity and say that something exists. [quote] Quote:I remember one situation that came up and one brother that I respect a great deal told me he's had it and is going to leave the board because people don't even understand basic concepts like this. Basic concept like what? That people should follow a certain fatwa because it is pasted here? [/quote] The particular situation (basic concept) I was thinking of was when someone asked if Jews and Christians are kafirs, Some people on the board said no, including 3 moderators held this wrong opinion. And people were upset with me for saying otherwise, and that how can an administrator of the board say something like this, etc. Finally in the end after much discussion, arguing, and daleel many finally realized the truth. There is no difference of opinion here among the scholars, there is no other opinion, either your a Muslim or your a kafir (weather its a jew, christian, hindu, etc). But there are people in Europe and America acting as imams saying otherwise, I sat in a khutbah where this happened, I was shocked. Not all opinions are valid, and that's why we need to always question and ask for the evidence for something. One example comes to mind, in the Distinguished Jurist Primer it mentions that some people hold the opinion that a man may marry upto 9 wives and they use the verse from the Quran that mentions marry 4,3, or 2 women (and they added up the numbers). I certainly wouldn't present this view as a scholarly view, as it is easily refuted by hadiths. Anyways, if there was another scholarly opinion on this matter (this thread) I would have put it up, I'm not aware of it, nor has anyone else presented it. As I said before I certainly would welcome it. I've presented all the proof I have to say on this matter, and alhumdullilah what is important is that sister Rameeza has the answer to her question from Eleanor and The Humble Muslim and can proceed, so now I will leave this matter alone and see what else is happening elsewhere on the board. :P |
| 03/12/03 at 01:29:27 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: 72 Virgins as a reward if you....??? |
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| jannah |
| 03/12/03 at 01:56:27 |
| [slm] bhaloo we're going to have to agree to disagree on this matter. i think anyone who says 'my view is the correct Islamic view and that is that' shouldn't be on this board. And pasting a view and saying that 'this is the correct view period' is the same thing in my opinion. again we are not faqihs or scholars or anywhere close, i don't know why we keep acting like we are or think the board is a means of that. i am not against posting information from various sources for the sake of answering a question or information, but to make it the 'be all end all fatwa' just isn't right. and not accepting that there may be other 'correct scholarly views' out there is even worse. as for the original question by sr rameeza, no one is negating the mentioning of hoors in the Quran, however the particular hadith about 72 virgins etc IS considered weak by some authorities. i have personally heard this opinion but do not feel right propogating someone else's fatwa throughout the internet. so if anyone wants a cut&paste i don't have one and am not willing to make one so you should please seek out your imam and ask him the details inshaAllah |
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| eleanor |
| 03/12/03 at 09:06:32 |
| [slm] okay peeps the question has been answered - take it to the ring jannah and bhaloo... anyone want further discussion on pros and cons of cutting and pasting please start a new thread elsewhere :) |
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