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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| Halima |
| 02/27/03 at 07:05:05 |
| This is challenging. Will ever there be a middle ground for yound Muslims in America??? excerpt American Muslims: The Politics of Dating By Asma Gull Hasan On the MPAC [Muslim Public Affairs Council e-mail]distribution list, a debate began with a message from a man who seemed to suggest that American Muslims needed to come up with solutions to the problem of what young Muslims should do who are not being allowed to date because of Islamic traditions, yet are not marrying at a young age. Was there any room for dating in American Islam, he was asking. I believe he was alluding to the fact that young people want companionship, intimate companionship, but aren't really sure they can have that without being condemned by fellow Muslims. It's a valid question because, if we aren't totally arranging marriages of young Muslims, how are they supposed to meet each other? I respected this man's bravery in speaking out in this forum. We all have this issue on our minds, but who wants to bring it up on an Email distribution list? Almost immediately, a few members of the group responded resolutely along the lines of: "There is no premarital sex in Islam, and we shouldn't waste our time talking about this." One woman explained why sex outside of marriage is forbidden in Islam, for very good reasons. It is meant to bring stability to the community. She quoted Dr. Hassan Hathout of the Islamic Center of Southern California as saying that sex outside of marriage is forbidden in Islam because Islam stands for justice between women and men. Sex outside of marriage is an injustice against women, as any negative consequences of such actions are almost totally shouldered by them, specifically pregnancy. In addition, a few offered that the Prophet's solution to carnal desires was to fast, to learn patience and self-control, and to marry, even at a young age. That was about all they said. Technically, there is no explicit prohibition against premarital sex in the Qur'an, but there are several implicit indicators against it: encouragement of marriage at a young age, modesty in appearance, and so on. Masturbation is also discouraged. One is instructed to fast to control urges. Basically, if you want to have sex and be a good Muslim, you should get married. This discussion was taking place at the time of the public disclosure of President Clinton's affair with former White House intern Monica Lewinsky. Most on the distribution list seemed to be saying regarding infidelity and sexual misconduct, that we shouldn't talk about sex when there were more important things going in the country and world. But, I was upset that this issue wasn't taken more seriously. What I mean is that we American Muslims should be talking about how we can solve this issue, not about fasting and marrying at the age of sixteen. So I had what my brother calls a "spaz" and let my feelings known over the Internet. I wrote in a huff that I thought this topic was really important for a bunch of reasons that I hadn't coherently organized as yet. First of all, it would have been silly for me to get married as soon as I realized I was attracted to men. In the Prophet's time, 1,400 years ago in Arabia, people married around the age of fifteen anyway because they only expected to live to their mid-30s. Second, I want to marry a Muslim and have Muslim kids, yet most of the Muslim boys I met socially and actually had a chance to get to know were "players." I don't think their primary interest was marriage. Third, I wasn't meeting nice Muslim boys who weren't interested in premarital sex because at every event I went to at a mosque, where there might be such boys, we were segregated by gender! So what is a young Muslim girl to do? Especially when, fourth, I had noticed that many young Muslim women I knew who had dated and had premarital sex with Muslims and non-Muslims were now marrying nice Muslim men. They became acquainted with these boys by dating them, and now they're marrying them. Good girls like me were, as Tom Petty once sang, "sitting home with broken hearts" and had little prospect of a marriage we'd be pleased with. Furthermore, some of the players, who were the children of immigrant Muslims usually, would eventually ask their mothers to find them nice girls from their home country, not girls like me who were supposedly already corrupted by American life. I had a few more thoughts that I didn't add, but my frustration was evident. I'm not yet ready to get married, but why shouldn't I develop relationships, maybe not more than friendship or dating without sex (if that's possible), that could develop into marriage? Why do I have to live like a nun with no companionship until I consent to an arranged marriage? Especially when many Muslim boys are dating and having sex with non-Muslim women because the community doesn't come down as hard on them. Many Muslims have a double standard in disciplining girls versus disciplining boys on such matters. Why should I marry young to fulfill desires but risk my education and career for a family? Furthermore, why is arranged marriage a viable alternative? I'm supposed to marry any boy who charms my parents enough? Later, I came across a Minaret magazine survey of 90 Muslim students in California colleges on premarital sex. My suspicions that barring Muslim youth from each other causes Muslim youth to socialize with non-Muslim youth were somewhat confirmed. Sixty percent had engaged in some sort of physical intimacy without involving sex with non-Muslims; only 6.6 percent had with other Muslims; 28.8 percent had had premarital sex with nonMuslims; 4.4 percent with Muslims. Clearly the goal is not for Muslims to have sex or intimacy only with each other, but to create an environment where Muslims are not turning away from their religion. Things are different in America. Men and women, boys and girls, meet all the time, in the mall, at work, in school. We can't isolate ourselves from that. Even if we cover a woman from head to toe and tell her to stay in the house all day, at some point, she'll have to call the plumber because the toilet's overflowing, and the plumber could easily be a man. American culture is challenging us as Muslims: how contemporary can we be? How will we solve this problem? The first step, for many, is admitting we have a problem. It's more than condemning pre-marital sex. As an American and a woman who wants some semblance of a career, I don't really believe in marriage at a young age. As a Muslim, I don't want to become morally lax. I don't want to have my parents arranging a marriage for me in my thirties. At the same time, many Muslims insist that the Qur'an does not allow for Muslim men and women who are not related to each other to meet. As a young woman who has grown up in America, I'm not willingly going to consent to an "old world" arranged marriage like my mother had. At the same time, I know, as a Muslim and Pakistani, that I'm certainly not free to date, meet (and probably have sex with) men. So how do I marry if I don't intend on having an arranged marriage, yet I'm not ready to turn my back on cultural and religious standards against dating? Early marriage is not the solution. One man wrote, in our E-mail discussion, that, "Most (but not all) of the sexual-urge hastened marriages that I've seen have broken up miserably in 1 to 3 years, or are mired in despair and miscommunication." Obviously that's not what we want. He said he was concerned for older Muslim women who were not meeting nice Muslim men because the communities are often segregated. One female friend of his "questions whether or not she has to 'be haram [unlawful] now in order to be halal [lawful] for the rest of my life."' He ends by saying, "I think we've reached a point where the Muslim youth of America have to establish communities that are separate from masjids [mosques; his point is that mosques will not allow men and women to meet because of Islamic guidelines] in order to foster effective and indigenous social services, promote intellectually free and challenging discourse, and create healthy and Islamic interaction between the sexes." Some Muslims say that you can meet a member of the opposite sex within Islamic guidelines. You must only be sincere in your interest in marrying this person. You can't just shoot the breeze and hang out with them for the hell of it. As a result, first meetings are loaded with expectation. The man who began the discussion pointed out that we need to move away f om this idea of relationships between genders as only leading to marriage and allow men and women to meet accepting, in his words, "the possibility that things would not work out." One woman wrote of girls to whom she teaches sex education, who say that young Muslim men are justifying as Islamic all sorts of sexual escapades, especially engaging in premarital intimacy without intercourse, whereas these same men look down on women who engage in similar activities as unIslamic. She calls this "an abuse of our religion . . . a form of self-deception" concluding that the Prophet was open to all topics, including sexuality, and that we should try to be "creative and courageous" in these "challenging times." |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| Kathy |
| 02/27/03 at 08:05:39 |
| [quote]Technically, there is no explicit prohibition against premarital sex in the Qur'an, [/quote] I would consider 100 lashes technical enough.... |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| M.F. |
| 02/27/03 at 08:34:13 |
| The age-old debate. "I don't want a pre-arranged marriage, but how can I get to know someone well enough if we don't date?...." Although it's a legitimate concern, I think this sis (and most Muslims, especially in America) are seeing things as either black or white. It's either an arranged marriage, or premarital relations (sexual or otherwise) till I find the right man. In reality it's not at all like that. Anyone who's been to university in the US and has been part of an MSA knows that there's a middle ground. You can get to know people fairly well without dating them or even being alone with them. And, you can get married without having your parents arrange it, but you still do need their consent. I don't think there's any community that's segregated so much that the men and women can't get to know each other well enough to get married. If only that were the problem! The problem usually is that parents, for one reason or another, get in the way of their children marrying. Now THAT's a real problem. |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| panjul |
| 02/27/03 at 23:04:19 |
| [slm] I give two thumbs down to the article. Like Kathy said 100 lashes for pre-marital sex is explicit proof! Can it be anymore explicit than that? Her concern is legitimate, but like M.F. said it's possible for a middle ground to be achieved and it happens all the time. What part of the U.S. is she living in? I'm sorry but she sounded like a whiny 13 year old girl. |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| Kathy |
| 02/28/03 at 09:02:45 |
| [slm] There is so much wrong with this article, that I have even considered deleting it or moving it to someone else's section. :P Perception is her reality. She really thinks this way because she has been so influenced by her culture. The reason I was thinking of removing it is because of its dangers in giving others a positive thought to dating. The first time i quickly read through it, as a moderator looking for "bad words", constitutional breakers, I thought she had made a point. However, later when i re read it, she makes alot of bad assumptions and irrational conclusions like: [quote]Why do I have to live like a nun with no companionship until I consent to an arranged marriage? Especially when many Muslim boys are dating and having sex with non-Muslim women[/quote] Yoi! So send me your feedback... think I should leave it up...but then i expect some "tearing it apart" for the sake of anyone wanting to agree with it. I feel strongly about this...[i]Ask Jannah... for I rarely delete anything....[/i] |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| onemuslimgirl |
| 02/28/03 at 10:22:48 |
| asalaam alakum, I agree with some points and disagree with others. First of all, she is right in the sense that in our community, we give boys more freedom than girls. What I have seen in our community is that for the most part, boys can go and come as they like. If a boy comes home at 2 or 3 in the morning, most likely the parents are not even awake, and if they are they do not know yell at the boy. If a girl comes home at even 12 midnight, you can bet when she walks in the parents are sitting waiting for her. Now, I am not saying this to let parents allow their daughters to come in time for fajr, but what I am saying is that we need to protect our sons like we are protecting our daughters too. I think it is correct for parents to know where their children are at all times, and to teach them what is halal and haram regardless if they are boys or girls. Now, the author of this article almost wants us to believe that we should be allowing free mixing of girls and boys. I totally disagree with that. I do agree with her that unfortunately, the girls who are getting married quickly are those that mix with guys; flirting, and going out with them. I do not think that they sleep together, as many of them know that is HARAM (and yes like stated on other posts, fornication is stated in the Quran). Now, the good girls are the ones who end up getting married later but believe me, they always get the good marriages mashAllah because there is baraka, or blessing from Allah for this girl who had patience to do what is right and Allah always rewards the patient and good-doers. Arranged marriages are not what they used to be: One day mom and dad tell you that there is a good proposal and guess what you are getting married next saturday! No sorry, she makes arranged marriages sound like that, when in fact they rarely occur like that now adays. What really happens is that you get a proposal, you meet the guy under your parents guidance, and you talk. You get to talk with this person under supervision as many times as it takes for you to decided, along with making the istikhara prayers of course. Then, if both of you decide its for the best, you get engaged and you continue to study the person (under guidance of course). I feel sorry for the girl in this article because I can feel her frustration. I can see it in our community too. All the good girls got married later (or are still not married), while the girls who flirted and dated have been married for years. But again, I can see the differences in the marriages. Those who knew one another before marriage through dating and so forth, alot of their marriages are very rocky and for some even disasterous (the % of divorces in that category is pretty high). Where as those good girls have wonderful marriages mashAllah because they lived a good life before marriage and Allah has blessed them with a good life after marriage (no divorce rates in those categories yet alhamdullah!). Please be patient and do what is right and Allah will reward you inshAllah!!! |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| Nafisa |
| 02/28/03 at 11:44:36 |
| Hmmmm.....this article is interesting and personally i dont think it should be taken down because there are many muslimahs who do feel this way however wrong you may feel their views are. As a single gal myself, i can hear her frustration at the situation. M.F wrote there was a middle ground at university but outside of university can be difficult. as a graduate, my uni days are over (too soon!) and it's really hard to find that middle ground. When i go to peeps houses, it can be totally segregated and at weddings it can be the same, eliminating any place for socialising to take place. Alhtough when it isn't segregated i get huffy when i see girls talking to boys cos i dont think it's right and also cuase i get really shy and awkard around fellas :P I'm just a big bag of contradictions. I don't think dating is the answer. But i wouldnt dismiss arranged marriages so quickly. they can be informal and relaxed meet ups. Inshallah, the writer will find what she's looking for. |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| Ruqayyah |
| 02/28/03 at 18:51:45 |
| [slm] if you think this article is bad, you should read her book! (or rather you should totally not waste your time on it). This girl talks about Islam in the book and makes herself out to represent the "modern muslim woman". As if! The book really made me mad b/c it contains so many falsehoods. She tries to shrug off many rules in the Qur'an and Sunnah as if it didn't really matter whether or not you followed them. I think also the book is published by a company her parents own, lukcy for her, she's now a "published author". I pray that Allah swt guides her and all of us on the straight path and keep us firm on it, ameen. [wlm] ruqayyah |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| Madinat |
| 02/28/03 at 22:15:21 |
| [quote author=Halima link=board=sis;num=1046347506;start=0#0 date=02/27/03 at 07:05:05]This is challenging. Will ever there be a middle ground for yound Muslims in America??? excerpt American Muslims: The Politics of Dating By Asma Gull Hasan It's a valid question because, if we aren't totally arranging marriages of young Muslims, how are they supposed to meet each other? I respected this man's bravery in speaking out in this forum. i respect his bravery too. i've been looking for a way to bring this up among more conservative muslims or just people who don't have their parents to find someone for them...... Almost immediately, a few members of the group responded resolutely along the lines of: "There is no premarital sex in Islam, and we shouldn't waste our time talking about this." who said anything about premarital sex? i don't think i even know any muslim brothers (for SEVERAL reasons)... to me, this is where the article strays from its original purpose......... Technically, there is no explicit prohibition against premarital sex in the Qur'an, YES THERE IS.... Especially when, fourth, I had noticed that many young Muslim women I knew who had dated and had premarital sex with Muslims and non-Muslims were now marrying nice Muslim men. WHOA! i notice that many young muslim women i know are sitting with other sisters wondering how they'll ever get married. their parents want them to marry someone "of their kind" but they are the only family "of their kind" in the neighborhood if not the state! so do you just go back to where you came from and begin your search anew? what about the americans with non-muslim parents? who is their indermediary? They became acquainted with these boys by dating them, and now they're marrying them. Good girls like me were, as Tom Petty once sang, "sitting home with broken hearts" and had little prospect of a marriage we'd be pleased with. Furthermore, some of the players, who were the children of immigrant Muslims usually, would eventually ask their mothers to find them nice girls from their home country, not girls like me who were supposedly already corrupted by American life. i have found this to be true to a certain extent, but i've never heard of muslims dating. "auditioning potential sposes", yes. but dating in the manner that the westerners casually do, i don't think so. I had a few more thoughts that I didn't add, but my frustration was evident. I'm not yet ready to get married, but why shouldn't I develop relationships, maybe not more than friendship or dating without sex (if that's possible), that could develop into marriage? because it can lead you to fitna or zina, why would you want to do that to yourself. from what i hear about western relationships, you're not missing much. Why do I have to live like a nun with no companionship until I consent to an arranged marriage? you've got to find yourself some girlfriends..... Especially when many Muslim boys are dating and having sex with non-Muslim women because the community doesn't come down as hard on them. but Allah will.....everyone will get they're just desserts, it's not up to the community to decide that. Many Muslims have a double standard in disciplining girls versus disciplining boys on such matters. Why should I marry young to fulfill desires but risk my education and career for a family? Furthermore, why is arranged marriage a viable alternative? I'm supposed to marry any boy who charms my parents enough? you can if you want to, nobody said you had to marry anyone who charmed your parents enough, now you're just making stuff up...... Later, I came across a Minaret magazine survey of 90 Muslim students in California colleges on premarital sex. My suspicions that barring Muslim youth from each other causes Muslim youth to socialize with non-Muslim youth were somewhat confirmed. Sixty percent had engaged in some sort of physical intimacy without involving sex with non-Muslims; only 6.6 percent had with other Muslims; 28.8 percent had had premarital sex with nonMuslims; 4.4 percent with Muslims. Clearly the goal is not for Muslims to have sex or intimacy only with each other, but to create an environment where Muslims are not turning away from their religion. tsk, tsk. a pity, really . At the same time, I know, as a Muslim and Pakistani, that I'm certainly not free to date, meet (and probably have sex with) men. So how do I marry if I don't intend on having an arranged marriage, yet I'm not ready to turn my back on cultural and religious standards against dating? again, you're saying that you have to sleep with every man you meet. i can see some of the other posters frustrations with this article at this point..... Some Muslims say that you can meet a member of the opposite sex within Islamic guidelines. You must only be sincere in your interest in marrying this person. You can't just shoot the breeze and hang out with them for the hell of it. i am a member of this group.... As a result, first meetings are loaded with expectation. The man who began the discussion pointed out that we need to move away f om this idea of relationships between genders as only leading to marriage and allow men and women to meet accepting, in his words, "the possibility that things would not work out." One woman wrote of girls to whom she teaches sex education, who say that young Muslim men are justifying as Islamic all sorts of sexual escapades, especially engaging in premarital intimacy without intercourse, whereas these same men look down on women who engage in similar activities as unIslamic. She calls this "an abuse ob our religion . . . a form of self-deception" concluding that the Prophet was open to all topics, including sexuality, and that we should try to be "creative and courageous" in these "challenging times." never heard of that before... [/quote] |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| theOriginal |
| 03/01/03 at 00:40:31 |
| [slm] Depressing article. People justify all sorts of things when they feel like indulging in such stuff. It's so difficult to watch this stuff happening everywhere. I'm speechless, and extremely saddened. Wasalaam. |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| UmmZaid |
| 03/01/03 at 02:32:54 |
| [quote author=Kathy link=board=sis;num=1046347506;start=0#1 date=02/27/03 at 08:05:39] I would consider 100 lashes technical enough....[/quote] [slm] I don't think we can or should expect too much from a person who claims that the first chapter of the Qur'an is "la illaha il Allah, Muhammadur Rasul'Allah." ::) Or that the Prophet [saw] prohibited pork eating b/c of trichinosis (IOW, Allah didn't forbid it). ::) Or who admits, in a jokey, aren't-I-so-cute way that she doesn't pray (very much). ::) And who claims to have read the Qur'an. ::) In fact claims to be a new type of scholar on it. ::) And who claims that homosexual sex should be permitted in Islam or among Muslims. ::) ::) She gets the attention she gets b/c she sounds good in a culture that says "If it feels good, do it," a culture that ostrasizes *anyone* who makes a "public" display of their beliefs. |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| Leslie |
| 03/02/03 at 04:38:01 |
| Assalamu alaikum, [quote author=UmmZaid link=board=sis;num=1046347506;start=0#10 date=03/01/03 at 02:32:54] I don't think we can or should expect too much from a person who claims that the first chapter of the Qur'an is "la illaha il Allah, Muhammadur Rasul'Allah." [/quote] Wow! Did she really write that?! :o :o :o I read some of her stuff on beliefnet as well as some other sites, and had already discounted much of it, but I wouldn't have guessed that she was that ignorant of Islam. When I first read her articles, I was a fairly new muslim. Much of what she was saying confused me, because she seemed to contradict what I remembered from reading the Qur'an, while she claims to be a representative of the true Islam. I wanted to explain her errors in some way that would allow me to reconcile these two aspects of her writing. While my attempts may have been generous, and too optimistic, at least I wasn't using her writing as an introduction to Islam. May Allah (swt) guide her to the truth, before it is too late. May He also protect us, and anyone wanting to learn about Islam, from believing such pseudo-scholarship. wassalam |
| 03/03/03 at 01:45:58 |
| Leslie |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/02/03 at 10:46:04 |
| [slm] I can't believe the crazy ideas in this article. >:( In the past there was another one of her articles posted here that made me mad. She's has some very wrong ideas about Islam, and she needs to stop writing these wrong things. I encourage everyone to write to her and to correct her. Does anyone have her email address? I don't want to go join that mpac list and find it out, but it might have to. |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| onemuslimgirl |
| 03/02/03 at 19:18:41 |
| asalam alakum, I agree that we should all write to her and explain to her our feelings. Like CAIR always says, be Firm BUT polite...her website is: http://www.asmahasan.com/ |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| Halima |
| 03/03/03 at 03:43:51 |
| I agree that we should talk to her. Last year, a colleague of mine who is Dutch shared with me an article wrote by a Somali lady in Holland. The article made me very mad. She said so many false things about Islam in it when in truth much of what she wrote was based on Somali culture which the men use to repress women when it suits their purposes. I think it is time we all seperated our cultures from Islamic teachings. And this is especially important if people are putting things in writing regardless of whether it is an article or a book. It is time to tell the truth and not use Islam to justify our cultural beliefs. If parents or men try to use culture to justify something that is an Islamic then we have the moral obligation to say NO. Sometimes, cultural beliefs have some good aspects which ran parallel to Islamic beliefs. But in most cases, they contradict Islamic teachings. It is wrong to paint a negative picture of Islam when lots of what affects an individual Muslim has no base in Islam. It is also wrong to try to twist Islamic teachings when they do not conform to individuals needs. I believe we all know what are HARAM and what are HALAL in Islam be they deeds, food or clothing. If a Muslim does NOT want to follow or observe a particular Islamic teaching they should be brave enough to say so. But they should never make it an excuse to belittle the Deen and its followers just because they do like it. [wlm] Halima |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| Maliha |
| 03/03/03 at 09:31:00 |
| [i]Here's a little email that i wrote to her...I don't know if it makes a difference, but i was being extra nice...Inshaallah Kheir. [/i] Assalamu Alaykum Asma, I have read excerpts of your book and an article called "American Muslims: The politics of Dating". I also listened to your interview on NPR. I have to commend you for your honesty in dealing with a lot of issues that other people for reasons of hayaa/modesty wouldn't bring up. At the same time, I really wanted to give you some naseeha/advice on some of the ideas you espouse on Islam. If you are going to be a spokesperson about Islam in America, I would advice to read up on the fundamentals of Islam. Read about the Aqeedah, what we should believe in. The Quran is not simply a book that we can read and interpreted based on our own whims and desires. There are people who studied the Quran for years and still couldn't come up with all the "answers". The concept of Hijaab is not simply a cultural concept.Please read the Tafsir Ibn Kathir of Suratul Noor verse in the Quran dealing with the hijab (http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=24&tid=35857). In the Quran it also points out that we should obey the Rasul (S.A.W), he requested his wives and the women of Madina to cover themselves, fully, except for the face and hands (this is a Sahih Hadith). To believe in the Quran is to believe in Prophet Muhammad's (S.AW) way of life and trying our best to emulate his excellent character (and for women his wives). Some of the ideas you espouse seem to me like they stem out of a lack of proper knowledge on Islam. There is wisdom in a lot of the different rulings that really have nothing to do with "culture". Issues such as dating, segregation, Praying, etc. are prescribed for our own good, so I would ask you to please read up on those before you offhandedly write them off as some Patriarchal product of Islamic society. A really good book that deals on the fundamentals of Islam and mispels a lot of notions is "Towards Understanding Islam" By Maulana Maududi or "Let us Be Muslims" by the same author. A small and comprehensive book that deals with Women in Islam is "Gender Equity" by Jamal Badawi. You seem really intelligent, and my dear sister we will be questioned on the Day of Judgement for the misuse of our intellect. More importantly for misleading others, because of our own lack of proper knowledge. In an age where people delight in causing chaos and confusion amongst Muslims, don't be surprised when the society embraces your "secularist" friendly version of Islam. All these accolades are nothing my dear sister, beneath the superficialities there is an emptiness that will remain until you decide to take the more arduous road. The road of dilligence, learning, and searching out the Truth about Islam. In today's information age, the sources of learning true Islam are infinite. You are in a place where you can make a difference in people's understanding of Islam, so its your responsibility to learn and disseminate the correct information. I like the fact that you take pride in being a Muslim in America, you should take that a step further and really engage yourself wholly in trying to uncover the beauty and purity of our religion. Please leave your misconceived notions behind, and embark on a journey that will be sure to expand your horizons in ways you never thought possible. We are all on that journey, so take this as some humble advice from one wayfarer to another. May Allah guide us all (Amin). Sis In Islam, Maliha. |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| amatullah |
| 03/03/03 at 11:28:05 |
| Can I just add that there is clear in Quran about this. Allah says " wala muttakhithati akhdan" and that means do not have the male close friends. Insha'Allah i'll ask my husband what sura and post it later. It might be an-nisa' |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| Halima |
| 03/04/03 at 00:59:52 |
| Allah ya izak, Maliha. You have put it in a very distinct, very direct way. May Allah bless you and may she find it in herself to understand and learn. Shukran. Halima |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| EMILY |
| 03/04/03 at 12:29:34 |
| Asalaamu Alykum, I think you should keep this article on. I agree with some of the things the sis was saying. It's hard for other people to think like that of feel that way if your not in the situation. I didn't think Islam was about pointing your fingers and insulting this poor girl who has a lot of issuses, some of your respones makes me as a "New Muslim" think twice about comming on this board again. Is everyone so set in thier ways that they can not open thier eyes and see how hard it is to be an American Muslim! It's easy for you if you are surounded in the Muslim community I as a 25 year old single mother have had to struggle so much since I became Muslim I love my new religon and I love Isam don't get me wrong but what I don't like is when people think they know eveything and think their are perfect and point out everything wrong about someone else. We are brothers and sisters and we should help each other not judge because to judge someone is a sin also. I'm very sorry if I have offended anyone but I was offended by the respones some of you made. Salaam, Emily |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| panjul |
| 03/04/03 at 14:35:41 |
| [slm] I'd just like to say one more thing, what's so political about dating? I thought wer were talking about religion? the religion islam? the girl is an amatuer writer. |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
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| Leslie |
| 03/05/03 at 05:01:52 |
| bismillah Assalamu alaikum, Dearest Emily, I hope that nothing that I have written offended you, or made you want to leave the board. Most of the people here are wonderful, and truly devoted to Islam. In my opinion, one of the reasons that Asma Hasan has received so much attention here is that, in some ways, her writing makes the lives of visible, practicing muslims just a little bit harder, because what she says is so appealing to the American public, because it tells them that good muslims can be invisible within American culture. Often, I have been harrassed by well meaning people (some within my own family), who have used arguments very similar to those that Asma promotes against me and my beliefs. Telling people, for instance, that hijab is not required by Islam (to speak of only one of many errors that I have encountered in her writing), means that every time one of her readers sees a woman in hijab, that reader will remember Sr. Asma's comments and possibly see that woman in a stereotypical fashion (ie. woman subjugated by evil brothers, fathers, husbands....). In this way, Sr. Asma, by setting herself up as the example of "the good muslim" as well as an expert on the Qur'an (as she does in some of her writing), indirectly promotes the 'us versus them' attitude that is currently plaguing American culture, and could possibly cause an uninformed reader to ask him or herself, "If this is what a good muslim is, are the visible ones extremists?" In some of her writing, I detect a certain anger at Islam, and the boundaries Allah (swt) has set for our lives. While she never goes as far as to say a double standard was imposed on women by Allah (astaghfirullah), and not by the cultural dictates of man, her writing can imply that this is the case. For instance, her comment, "Why do I have to live like a nun with no companionship until I consent to an arranged marriage? Especially when many Muslim boys are dating and having sex with non-Muslim women," is merely one example. She reveals herself not so much by what she is saying, because this double standard does exist in many Muslim communities, but in the way she says it. Instead of complaining about the fact that this problem exists at all when everyone is supposted to be chaste, she complains about her exclusion from the leniency awarded to her brothers. This desire for a freedom that so clearly escapes the limits set by God disturbs me in a writer who is gaining popularity as a spokesperson for Muslims all over America. Her writing of hijab shows much of the same anger and frustration, as well as much confusion: "I have a few problems with seeing Hijab as a Qur'anic requirement, the main one being that, if the above interpretations are true, men are severely, disproportionately, excluded from the Hijab requirment, particularly in the United States. The modesty passage is directed to both men and woman, as is the prayer passage. In addition, the modesty passage does not necessarily suggest covering one's head. It actually specifies arms and chest. Furthermore, if everything we do is an expression of prayer, men as well as women should be required to wear Hijab, as there is no exception in the Qur'an. (It does not say only "only womens'actions count as prayer.)" In addition to its near incomprehensibility, this passage so clearly contradicts the Quran, that I was shocked that it could have come from the pen of a muslim. She does not even try to explain why she believes her position is strong. Here, she merely passes on a certain emotion to her reader, a distaste for the subject, and then claims that this is scholarship, implying, therefore, that she is correct in her analysis. (For a more accurate view of some of the verses on modesty, see the link in Sr. Maliha's beautiful post (ma sha'a allah). Her e-mail shows all of the kindness and wisdom that I usually lack in such matters.) As for your post, Emily, I don't think that any of us are trying to deny that being a Muslim in America (or anywhere else) can be difficult. Since my shahada, I have faced my share of rejection from both 'mainstream culture' as well as the muslim community. There are people in each community that will always view me as a traitor, or a potential one. (This, of course, does not mean that I haven't found beautiful and wonderful friends who accept me the way I am, and without whom the others would have seemed unbearable -- To them, I send my love and my heartfelt thanks.) Starting out with a new way of life takes much courage and strength, especially when your choice may not be accepted willingly by your own family, or the culture to which you belong(ed). There will always be people who will judge you unfairly, and question your motives. There will also be people who will bring great joy into your life -- they may not be able to make life any simpler, but they will make it more enjoyable. In any case, good guidance will make finding your way much easier. Unfortunately, ideas like those found in Sr. Asma's article, do not make anything easier for muslims in America, regardless of the good intentions of the author. People can become confused, and then accept that which is most familiar as true, merely because its familiarity is somehow comforting. This type of logic can discourage people from ever discovering the true beauty of Islam, and it can lead others to believe that it is perfectly acceptable to bar girls in hijab from school, or to condem muslims for asking for religious concessions at work. After all, these people think, this strangeness isn't required by their religion anyway. Perhaps this perceived danger is why many of us reacted to her article in the way that we have. Allahu alam. More important than any of this, of course, is your threat to leave us. :( Please do not give up on us due to our comments about Sr. Asma's writing. Most of the people on this board are good, loving people who would never wish to offend you, even inadvertantly. I sincerely hope that you decide to stay, and enliven our lives through your words. I wish you all the best in this life as well as all the best in the next. wassalam Leslie |
| 03/05/03 at 05:07:58 |
| Leslie |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
|---|
| EMILY |
| 03/05/03 at 12:11:45 |
| Asalaam Alykum, I'm really sorry if I went off the deep end yesterday since I said my Shahada in May of last year I too have had my share of criticism from everyone, I just think it's sad when it's comming from your Muslim brother's and sister's. Again I truly apologize for being rude. It's a strugle to be Muslim, particularly when you do really have anyone to talk too. Your my only friends right now. Thank you and again sorry about yesterday. Masalaama, Your Sister in Islam, Emily |
| Re: American Muslims: The Politics of Dating |
|---|
| Traveler |
| 03/05/03 at 22:04:13 |
| [slm] Since this is the akhwat section of the board I tried to resist my urge to take part in the on going discussion but sorry to say I'm a man with a relatively weak will power. I hope the sisters don't mind me taking part in this important discussion. I personally feel Ms. Asma has brought up a real social problem we muslims face in our communities. But don't get me wrong I don't support her suggested solution, if, the American style dating ,is , her suggested solution. Niether do I agree with her false claims about no prohibition on premarital sexual relationships. The reason for my appreciation of her article is the fact she has addressed a social problem which, I surprisingly don't see any of the well known public muslim figures addrressing. As if it is not even an issue. As the author said, the first step in solving a problem is to identify it. And based on some of the responses I feel some of us on this board don't think it is either. So I guess before we continue to discuss the article I think we need to know if there is an agreemeent on the existence of this social problem and if, so then what exactly is it. In my view, the paraphrased message of the guy from MPAC words the issue well. "a debate began with a message from a man who seemed to suggest that American Muslims needed to come up with solutions to the problem of what young Muslims should do who are not being allowed to date because of Islamic traditions, yet are not marrying at a young age. Was there any room for dating in American Islam, he was asking. I believe he was alluding to the fact that young people want companionship, intimate companionship, but aren't really sure they can have that without being condemned by fellow Muslims. It's a valid question because, if we aren't totally arranging marriages of young Muslims, how are they supposed to meet each other?" In my own words, are our communities too segregated than required by our faith, and as a consequence have created undesired difficulties which we are not able overcome? Have we understood the will of God accurately and practice it the way we're supposed to as far as roles and relationships between men and women are concerned? |
| 03/05/03 at 22:07:44 |
| Traveler |
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board |