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George Bush
Anonymous
03/12/03 at 14:07:25
I?d be interested to know how Muslims would react if George Bush converted to Islam? Thanks in advance for your responses

Re: George Bush
Kathy
03/12/03 at 16:38:03
[slm] The same as we would any other revert. Congratulate them, offer them any help in learning their prayers, introduce them to the community and its resources, and ask Allah swt to guide them. Oh and have a dinner for him!

Re: George Bush
Dude
03/12/03 at 19:38:04
You could also buy him one of those cool suits. ;)

Re: George Bush
panjul
03/13/03 at 18:08:54
Well, if Dubya converted to Islam I'd be shocked. Really. I would love to dine with him at Kathy's house and one of my questions to him would be: Who's your favorite political philosopher? It would be interesting to see if he would still say "Jesus,'" (peace be upon him and his mother). Or would he have become a teeny tiny bit smarter and give a better answer?

Re: George Bush
BroHanif
03/13/03 at 18:55:47
[quote]I?d be interested to know how Muslims would react if George Bush converted to   Islam? [/quote] If he dis accept Islaam, then I'd ask for my brothers to be freed at Camp X Ray. Hear to the concerns of the environmentalists. Slash the war budget and spend more on aid, especially in Africa and work hard to develop peace in this world. Ask him to go to hajj, thats before he gets assasinated. Salaams Hanif
NS

Re: George Bush
panjul
03/14/03 at 01:22:05
Ask him to go to hajj, thats before he gets assasinated. Who do you think would most likely do it? I think it would be someone from the Jerry Fallwel's followers. or maybe an Israeli.

Re: George Bush
jannah
03/14/03 at 02:31:05
Mike that issue has been explained quite thoroughly in the Al Manar thread. As for the comments I think you misunderstood. They are saying that If Bush converts he will gain alot of enemies that will want to assasinate him. Please if you want to insult Islam and Muslims don't come here. There's just no point.

Re: George Bush
ltcorpest2
03/14/03 at 09:24:47
but it is ok to insult anyone but muslims?  How long would karzai or kamaeini or mubarak  or musharaf last if they professed to be christians or or jews?  a lot less time than george bush would?

Re: George Bush
Dude
03/14/03 at 18:58:35
I have to agree with the hypocrisy here… George Bush is public enemy #1 all over these pages (it seems), but then, if he converts, you want to have him over for dinner?  ::) It seems that he would all of a sudden be forgiven. Who’s to say that if he were to convert, he still wouldn’t want to bomb Saddam? Would he then be praised as a savior or freedom fighter, instead of a tyrannical dictator or international terrorist? That’s OK…let’s have him over for dinner, say a couple of prayers, and buy him a cool suit (btw: I’m not dissing the suit…our boy wears one, and he looks cracking in it). ;) Maybe this is one of those idiosyncrasies of the Muslim faith I can’t wrap my head around. It seems to me that if one is Muslim, they’re given a heck of a lot more rope than if they’re non-Muslim- no matter how they conduct their lives, or what they say. That is clearly evident on these threads. Heck…just look at poor old Deke…he can’t seem to catch a break, no matter what he says. As my loving wife like to say to me, “Salla Gora”. ;D

Re: George Bush
panjul
03/14/03 at 23:26:32
[slm] George Bush is public enemy #1 all over these pages (it seems), but then, if he converts, you want to have him over for dinner? We are assuming that if a man like Bush decides to be a Muslim, he would have a change of heart, a big change of heart and stop his madness. If he converted and did not stop--of course i wouldn't want to have dinner with him! Nor would anyone else. That would lead us to wonder was he in his right mind when he converted? Then we'd think that it was a conspiracy and that he was trying to win the votes of the Muslims in 2004 by professing to have converted.

Re: George Bush
jannah
03/15/03 at 00:46:55
I was wary of even putting up this anonymous post. Why are we arguing about something that doesn't even exist? As for your "hypocrisy" points Dude and Mike, as Muslims we have certain values and principels and we assume other Muslims have those values and principles as well. There is no hypocrisy in that. For example not talking about a person behind their back (not backbiting)  is a big part of a Muslims character. It is in fact one of the major sins. Now if someone becomes a Muslim I would [i] assume [/i] that they're going to learn this principle and practice it. Now if a non-Muslim comes along, I really can't assume anything I don't [i] know [/i] for sure what their ideals and principles are. Now this example is something that people know is inherently not good, but what about other things like taking interest or gambling etc. I will assume certain things about the Muslim because of Islamic law or morals, but I can't make those same assumptions about everyone. There is no hypocrisy here, it is just about what we are taught as one body of faith.   Now if anyone becomes Muslim we are assuming a huge change in ideas and principles and we're also assuming they will follow the faith and the laws. That being said alot of the pro-war arguments and  reasoning for the war would have to be completely re-evaluated ie the ends justifies the means does not work in Islam. One person does not go ahead and do something without consultation, etc etc.. there are so many other things.  Not to mention the fact that wealth and status quo are not values we uphold in Islam, so the whole oil etc reasons for the war are out too. Anyway we are not a proslythesizing (sp?) religion despite the way we are portrayed. Our duty as Muslims is only to explain what Islam really teaches. What people want to do after that is their perogative. We should not be concentrating on "converting" Bush or anyone else. Our real efforts should be in having people understand what Islam is and what it stands for. That is the only way tolerance can spread in the world -- through understanding . So what we need really is more people 'sympathetic' to Islam and Islamic causes, which may or may not lead to conversion -- but that is something up to the person and God, not us. .
03/15/03 at 15:06:12
jannah

Re: George Bush
eleanor
03/15/03 at 07:56:13
[slm] Quite apart from that - Islam is all about Ummah - brotherhood and sisterhood.. So the done thing would be to invite him for dinner, get to know him. If a Muslim is "bad" then it is our duty as his brothers and sisters to try to invite him to the right path. The same as it is our duty to inform non-Muslims about Islam.

...just pointing out a bit of the hRe: George Bush
Dude
03/15/03 at 15:56:33
Easy ladies...just pointing out a bit of the humor in all this. :) Now, having stated that, this comment has me chuckling a little too: [quote]For example not talking about a person behind their back (not backbiting)  is a big part of a Muslims character. It is in fact one of the major sins.[/quote] I know this, and I assume most Muslims do, too. Quite often, Muslims from the community ask me why I'm so reluctant to embrace the religion. Among other reasons, one of the biggest problems I have [i]is[/i] the gossip, backbiting, and the inane amount of pre-judging that goes on. Really...it gets to the point that I'm completely turned off taking my family to community functions. Every one seems to have to give their two bit opinion about others, when the people they're discussing aren't around to defend themselves. My father & mother in law are really the only good examples of Muslims I can think of that don't actively backbite. Sorry for the brutally honest opinion, but it really is hypocracy in full view.
03/15/03 at 15:57:29
Dude

Re: George Bush
humble_muslim
03/15/03 at 17:43:27
No doubt Dude, you are right about the amount of backbiting in muslim communities.  The only thing I can say is that I never slip up a opportunity to criticize anyone who backbites, even if they are in my own family. I don't think this is a hypothetical issue.  Don't forget, Umar (RA) hated muslims more than George Bush does before he became muslim.  And that the Prophet (SAW) PRAYED to Allah SWT to guide either Umar (RA) or Abu Jhal to Islam.  Bascially, Dude, even if Radovan Karavizc became muslim, he would be forgiven for all the opression he carried out in Bosnia.  Forgivenn by Allah SWT, and forgiveen by all of us.  Heck, the man who killed the uncle of the Prophet (SAW) accepted Islam, and the Prophet (SAW) accepted him.
NS

Re: George Bush
BrKhalid
03/16/03 at 05:38:13
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) I think we need to explain to Dude and Mike what “becoming Muslim” actually means and clarify some terms for them. When someone converts to Islam they make the following declaration of faith: “There is none worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad[saw] is His Messenger” Now on the face of it, that doesn’t seem so hard to do does it? I mean anyone could say these words and say I’m a Muslim. Implicit in this declaration, however, is your willingness to submit yourself to Allah and hence obey His wishes and commands. Indeed the Qur’an says in many places of the need to have faith and do righteous actions: “Those who have faith [I]and[/I] do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures[98:07] Now if someone converts and does righteous deeds, they would not be in favour of committing the sort of oppression being currently undertaken in Iraq because they understand that Islam and Allah does not tolerate such oppression. Allah says in a Hadith Qudsi: "O My servants, I have forbidden oppression for Myself and have made it forbidden amongst you, so do not oppress one another."[Muslim] If this convert doesn’t believe in this, then he is not actually a Muslim. You can’t just pick and choose what you like/dislike. [quote]Who’s to say that if he were to convert, he still wouldn’t want to bomb Saddam?[/quote] Hence I think the above answers this question. But moving a step further, there sometimes is a difference between a Muslim who is aware and accepting of his faith [aqeeda] but does not implement this in terms of righteous actions. Let me take our 5 daily prayers as an example. A Muslim who does not pray 5 times a day is still a Muslim as long as he knows prayer is compulsory and he is sinning by not praying. This is in contrast to one who may pray occasionally but does not believe praying 5 times daily is obligatory. The former is a Muslim and the latter is not. The ideal however is to accept faith, perform righteous actions and become a believer [Mu’min] Hence I stress the point that we make regularly on this board, that non Muslims should look at Islam and not the representation of Islam as portrayed by some Muslims. Okay moving on again…. As Sr Eleanor said once someone embraces Islam, it is our duty that we help him if he is doing something wrong. We often use the term Brotherhood but that’s exactly what it means. The person becomes like a Brother to us and hence if our brothers or sisters are doing wrong in our family, we take time out to look after them in precedence to less nearer relatives. What’s important to bear in mind is that as Muslims we dislike actions which displease Allah whether they emanate from a Muslim or a non Muslim. Hence the person is not the target but the actions of that person: "The Prophet [saw] never took revenge for his own sake, but if the laws of Allah (SWT) were violated, he would take revenge for the sake of Allah (SWT).[Bukahri & Muslim] As Br Hamayoun pointed out in his post, history shows that the men who fought against the Muslims in the battles of Badr and Uhud were immediately forgiven once they became Muslim and gave up their wrongful actions. If that’s the case then I think it’s clear what the answer to the original question would be. Wasalaam Br Khalid
03/16/03 at 05:43:51
BrKhalid

Re: George Bush
ltcorpest2
03/16/03 at 10:59:01
Thata is an inteesting point Bro,  But how many muslims leaders who  were born muslim show the true type of muslim faith you are talking about?  From my understanding there are approx 40 or so muslim countries but I do not see any muslim (or very few if at all) that show much in the way of a faith that I would consider a quality muslims faith.       Hamayoun says that he would  speak up about backbiting when he sees  it.  I do not see evidence on here about that.  I have been slandered on more than a couple of occasions on here by someone (and since a couple of muslims have pmed me on this it is not in my head), but I have never seen a muslim take a stand on this issue.  maybe it is backbiting and slander against muslims is an issue but not when a muslim does it to a kaffir?  I would think that it is the duty of muslims (just as i think it is my duty if a fellow christian would say slanderous things about a non christian to confront a fellow muslim) in cases such as these but i haven't seen in on here at least.    Just a side note:   this is supposed to be the Ummah community center   but for the most part I only see this as the rag on the united states center.  Why is that?  There are 40 muslim countries out there but all i see is how bad the usa and george bush is oh and israel.

Re: George Bush
Dude
03/16/03 at 11:14:54
[quote]Bascially, Dude, even if Radovan Karavizc became muslim, he would be forgiven for all the opression he carried out in Bosnia.  Forgivenn by Allah SubHana Wa Ta`ala, and forgiveen by all of us. [/quote] Another reason I can't accept the religion, or any other...the idea of forgivance if you convert. There are some acts in life that can't and shouldn't be forgiven. To me, murder is one. Rape is another. I don't care if you're Jesus or Mohammed themselves- if you kill, and it isn't self defence, it's wrong. God should NEVER forgive anyone for that. Silly. BTW: Mike Tyson converted. Was he all of a sudden forgiven? (Sorry- probably a post for another thread, but it was stated here.)

Re: George Bush
Red
03/16/03 at 16:12:50
[slm], Mike Said  [quote] Just a side note:   this is supposed to be the Ummah community center   but for the most part I only see this as the rag on the united states center.  Why is that?  There are 40 muslim countries out there but all i see is how bad the usa and george bush is oh and israel. [/quote] Bro. Mike that just seems to me uncalled for. I think the problem is the US is a very influential country and they are doing a war with Iraq when it is not neccessary. More than that innocent children are going to be killed. Why the so called "bashing" of Israel? Anybody can see clearly muslim or not that Israeli government has take the rights and liberties of the Palestianans, when they have the superior authority (meaning more power)  to handle issues better than they are. Look at this page: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030316/168/3j2jh.html Click on a link to Mideast Slideshow on Yahoo, and you will see some things that are unbelieveable that Israel is doing. They recently ran over and killed a 27 year old American named Rachel Corey who was protesting the demolishment of a house in Rafah in Gaza. Also recently they took an Israeli chrisitians, Elina Habeeb and her husband, childern away from them because of protesting. Its these issues that bother many people muslim or not. Nobody is slandering Jewish people or Israel but rather the policies of the Israeli government. About the slanderous remarks, a muslim does not say anything bad about someone or their religion whether or not they are muslim and i think the board does a good job with stoping threads that turn into insulting game. These are issues it seems, no matter your beliefs, that turn into fierce argument because of the nature of the issue itself. red
03/16/03 at 16:18:10
Red

Re: George Bush
BrKhalid
03/16/03 at 17:26:08
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]But how many muslims leaders who were born muslim show the true type of muslim faith you are talking about?[/quote] We've told you what the Islamic faith says. We cannot be held responsible for how others behave or adhere to Islam. If yourself and Dude want to point out inconsistencies between the Religion and those who practise it, then you will always be able to do so. I would have thought, however, you guys (having been on the board long enough) would have been passed this stage and would be delving a bit deeper. For example if I asked you both *why* do you think there is a divergence between some Muslims' behaviour and the religion, what would you say? [I apologise if I'm doing you guys an injustice here but it seems to me you guys looking at things the wrong way. No offence intended ;-)] [quote]Another reason I can't accept the religion, or any other...the idea of forgivance if you convert[/quote] Hmmm...but when one converts are *all* sins necessarily forgiven Dude? Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do you know who is poor? They (the Companions of the Holy Prophet) said: A poor man amongst us is one who has neither dirham with him nor wealth. He (the Holy Prophet) said: The poor of my Umma would be he who would come on the Day of Resurrecton with prayers and fasts and Zakat but (he would find himself bankrupt on that day as he would have exhausted his funds of virtues) since he hurled abuses upon others, brought calumny against others and unlawfully consumed the wealth of others [u]and shed the blood of others and beat others[/u], and his virtues would be credited to the account of one (who suffered at his hand). And if his good deeds fall short to clear the account, then his sins would be entered in (his account) and he would be thrown in the Hell-Fire. The above is a famous hadith concerning the rights we owe in the world. We owe rights to Allah in terms of belief and injunctions which we need to perform, *but* we also have rights to our fellow human beings. As sated in the Hadith, it may be all well and good if we have lots of prayers and fasts to our name but we have committed many excesses when it comes to our fellow man. I've underlined the section about shedding blood because Dude mentioned no one should be forgiven for murder. The Hadith shows that even though one may be forgiven by Allah for taking another's life, if the person (or his family) is not prepared to forgive you then you will have to literally pay for it in the Hereafter(in terms of giving up your good deeds). Hence where a Muslim (new or old) has infringed the rights of his fellow man, there can be no forgiveness from Allah but only from the person who was trangressed. Of course Allah can forgive who and what He wishes for He is the Most Just and the Most Wise. Just a side note: We are more than happy to answer genuine questions on this board and try our best to do so. However, please remember none of us are scholars here but just regular people living regular lives. I urge everyone (myself included) to behave with dignity and decorum so we don't find ourselves having to pay out on the Day of Judgement as indicated in the above Hadith. Wasalaam Br Khalid ;-)
03/16/03 at 17:38:38
BrKhalid

Re: George Bush
Dude
03/16/03 at 23:23:49
BrKhalid, I think I'm probably correct in guessing that Mike & I don't entirely agree on the issue of forgiving. I believe Mike may profess to another religion (I’m not sure, but I believe Christianity at least). The same belief applies with many Christian religions too…you can convert, and lead the good life, and follow the rules, and be forgiven. Like I said, I truly believe some people can not be forgiven for certain heinous acts…no matter what they do in the future. Like I said: it’s an issue I have serious trouble with. Many (including some on this board) have asked me why I can’t bring myself to convert…this is one of the reasons. Just being honest. I do strongly beleive in the Day of Judgement.
03/16/03 at 23:26:14
Dude

Re: George Bush
UmmWafi
03/17/03 at 11:34:15
[quote author=Dude link=board=ummah;num=1047496045;start=15#19 date=03/16/03 at 23:23:49] Many (including some on this board) have asked me why I can’t bring myself to convert…this is one of the reasons. Just being honest. I do strongly beleive in the Day of Judgement. [/quote] Hello Dude :) Forgive me for this impertinent question but I wanted to clarify something with you.  In one of your post you described the process you went through to marry your wife and I think you did mention you embraced Islam so that you can marry her.  I may be wrong but here it seems you are saying that you do not belong to a particular faith.  Am I confused or is there a more interesting explanation to this ? Peace.

Re: George Bush
UmmWafi
03/17/03 at 11:53:02
[slm] everyone What a whirlwind of month it has been.  I feel as if I have been trussed up in a sack and beaten up to a pulp.  I have missed Jannah.org very much and indeed I have missed my lovely brothers and sisters  :-*  I am still trussed up in the sack so I shall be brief :) Mike I can understand why you question about responses to backbiting.  I do not and will not speak for others but I do respond to backbiting, with Muslims and non-Muslims alike.  Difference is I take my discussion private.  It has to do with the adab or etiquette of it all.  I admit that I have sometimes lapsed in the past but upon careful reflection, those were a response to content of a post more than a chide on the person. As for using the Ummah Community Centre as a US and George-bashing arena (oh and Israel too ;) ), maybe that is the case now because since 9/11, the tension has been between the US and Muslims (despite what media savvy press kits say).  That said, one can't help wonder if the US history, role and involvement with the Israelis, specifically their attacks on Palestine, fueled the Muslims unhappiness with the US. However, (Se7en can help me here) if you click on some links you will find that some Muslim-ruled countries have also come under verbal assault by members, especially the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.  Let me assure you that I, and I am sure many other Muslims too, have many thoughts on supposedly Muslim countries and I definitely have my criticisms too.  However, and here I speak for myself alone, I find that I restrain my involvement in the Ummah because people, Muslims and non-Muslims alike, tend to get somewhat passionate about their causes and I find that confronting all that gives me the hives  ;D  I must stress though that the previous line did not in any way indicate I am not receptive to any form of intellectual discussion on politics.  I am. Wassalam.
03/17/03 at 11:54:33
UmmWafi

Re: George Bush
sofia
03/17/03 at 12:02:29
[quote]Like I said, I truly believe some people can not be forgiven for certain heinous acts…no matter what they do in the future. [/quote] Dude, Out of curiosity, how do you define "forgive"? From an Islaamic (law) perspective, forgiveness does not mean accetance of bad deeds. It means a pardon from punishment for bad deeds, and there are certain criteria that must be met before that can ever take place. God knows best. Knowing a bit about how the shari'ah works (and not from primetime) can open up a world of info, inshaa'Allaah. Anyhow, none of us knows what God will accept (in terms of our repentance or "taubah"), since only He can see the sincerity of one's heart. Every one of our actions, is judged (by God) by its intentions. And who else knows about our intentions, except God? Regarding past sins that will be forgiven by God when one converts (or makes hijrah, or does an acceptible Hajj, etc), again, it's up to God. A person who sincerely converts for the sake of pleasing God (rather than a person) is much different than one who does not, and only God knows that. We can't tell you one way or the other that someone's sins will be forgiven, only situations in which that can occur, by the will of God. Again, He is the Judge, not us. If there is something that doesn't make sense to you, I presume that you come here to understand it (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt). But as we may have mentioned to others at various points, this board is not Islaam. If we care to know what it's about, learn about it through its actual teachings (ie, like the Qur'aan and a good, qualified teacher), rather than use our own intellect or our friends, peers, etc. Yep, our intellect is not God (to borrow a phrase from bro. Muhammad AlShareef). Some things that came to mind from your post: "Tell my servants that I am indeed the Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful" (translation of the Qur'aan, The Rocky Tract, 15:49). There was a bedouin who once came to the Prophet (S) and/or his masjid, and did something that would otherwise not be allowed in a masjid. The companions got upset, but the Prophet (S) just smiled and taught him what to do, telling his companions to calm down. [Nowadays, we may consider that "too soft," unfortunately]. Before he left, the Bedouin prayed with the Prophet (S) and supplicated: "O God! Bestow Your Mercy on me and Muhammad *only* and do not bestow it on anybody else." When the Prophet had finished his prayer, he said to the bedouin, "You have limited (narrowed) a very vast (thing)," (ie, God's mercy). In a similar situation, another bedouin came to ask the Prophet (S) something, and grabbed him by his cloak so hard, that it left marks on his face/neck. His companions offered to chop off his neck as retaliation, but the Prophet (S) just smiled and gave him whatever he was asking for. He (S) never retaliated for anything (against himself), nor did he treat others the way he was treated. He used to say something to the affect of, "I have only been sent to uphold/beautify/complete good manners." On another topic, the Prophet (S) described those who, on the Day of Judgement, would be the first to be questioned by God. One would be a "martyr", who will tell God, "I fought for You until I became a martyr." God will say, "You lied. You fought so that you could be called a 'brave martyr,' and you were called so."  The next to be questioned would be an "a'lim" who imparted his knowledge of the Qur'aan to others. He will tell God, "I learned and taught the Qur'aan for Your pleasure." God will say, "You lied. You acquired knowledge so you could be called a 'scholar,' and you were called so." The next, would be a someone who was given much wealth, and who disseminated it to various causes, the poor, etc. He will tell God, "I spent wealth in every cause that You may be pleased with." God will say, "You lied. You did it so that you would be called 'generous.' And you were called so." Then, they will all be dragged on their faces to Hell. In another narration, the Prophet (S) told the story of a man who had killed 99 people. He felt remorse, and asked a learned man (monk or rabbi) what he should do, where he should go to learn from, how to stop and ask for forgiveness, etc. The learned man said something to the affect of, "God will never forgive you for your heinous sins." So the man killed him, making his tally an even 100. He felt remorse again, and asked another learned man, who said, go to such and such place to speak with such-and-such learned person. So on the way there, the man died. The Angels of mercy and Angels of wrath argued with one another over who should take his soul, so God told them that if the man died closer to the place he was trying to get to (can be taken metaphorically), then the Angels of Mercy can take his soul. If he died farther away, the Angels of Wrath could take his soul. So God moved his body closer to where he was trying to go, thus forgiving him, in essence. By forgiving him, God did not accept the murders, nor did he forego the rights of the murdered/family of the murdered. These are separate issues, which God has full ability to do justice with. The Prophet (S) said: "Every action is judged by its intention." After his death, his wife Aisha (R) was asked what was the character of the Prophet (S). She replied, his character was the Qur'aan. I apologize if we haven't behaved in a manner more befitting of the Qur'aan and the manners of the the Prophet (S), and instead, rely on the "chop-his-head-off" reflex. May God forgive, protect and guide us all.
03/17/03 at 12:49:31
sofia

Re: George Bush
Dude
03/17/03 at 17:45:13
[quote]It means a pardon from punishment for bad deeds, and there are certain criteria that must be met before that can ever take place.[/quote] Yes, we're on the same wavelength. This in particular is disturbing to me: [quote]In another narration, the Prophet (S) told the story of a man who had killed 99 people. He felt remorse, and asked a learned man (monk or rabbi) what he should do, where he should go to learn from, how to stop and ask for forgiveness, etc. The learned man said something to the affect of, "God will never forgive you for your heinous sins." So the man killed him, making his tally an even 100. He felt remorse again, and asked another learned man, who said, go to such and such place to speak with such-and-such learned person. So on the way there, the man died. The Angels of mercy and Angels of wrath argued with one another over who should take his soul, so God told them that if the man died closer to the place he was trying to get to (can be taken metaphorically), then the Angels of Mercy can take his soul. If he died farther away, the Angels of Wrath could take his soul. So God moved his body closer to where he was trying to go, thus forgiving him, in essence.   By forgiving him, God did not accept the murders, nor did he forego the rights of the murdered/family of the murdered. These are separate issues, which God has full ability to do justice with.[/quote] All your post does is solidify my stance, and my personal belief. I can't believe in a God who will forgive certain individuals for certain sins, no matter what good that person may due in his or her future in an attempt go gain forgiveness. The way I see things, the guy that murdered 100 people, including the clergy person, should have been sent to the deepest pits of Hell for all eternity. There should be absolutely no forgiving certain individuals for their sins. Sorry for the brutal honesty, but that's pretty much how I see things- black, and white.

Re: George Bush
Dude
03/17/03 at 18:00:37
UmmWafi, No apology necessary. I think I said that my father in law told me I needed to accept Islam into my home. He, nor the iman, asked me to embrace Islam. I can clearly distinguish between the two. After all, it is pretty much impossible to ask any convert to 100% accept Islam into their hearts...that would just be blind faith. My guess is that it takes most people years and years to fully accept Islam, and to fully embrace it for everything that it is. My kids are being raised Muslim. I'm doing this for their benefit, not mine. I'm cynical, but I've become cynical on my own, through my own personal experiences in life. I grew up Catholic. I have never denounced God, but I have, admittedly, rejected the idea of religion. As for my kids, I think it is healthy to expose them to all the good things about Islam, mainly the ethics and morals that come along with learning and following the pillars. I'm not in a position to teach my kids Christianity, but my wife, Father in Law, and Mother in law are great Muslim examples of everything I think is good about Islam. I try to lead my life to set the best example I can in all other aspects...really, it's the best I can do, without being a full believer in the religion. As for my kids, I hope they embrace everything that is good about Islam. One day, they'll come to a cross-road (like everyone, I'm sure), where their questions will truly lead to either fully accepting Islam into their hearts, or choosing another path. I'll be here to support and advise them, no matter what. I don't know if that clarifies things, but it's probably the best I can do. Besides, at the end of the day, aren't we all just hoping we make it through the gates of Heaven a full half hour before the Devil knows we're dead? Happy St. Patrick's Day! ;D

Re: George Bush
sofia
03/17/03 at 20:01:34
[quote]Sorry for the brutal honesty, but that's pretty much how I see things- black, and white. [/quote] No need to apologize, to each his own -- I'm just glad I don't have your take on God! "I am as My slave believes me to be." - Hadith Qudsi Alhamdulillah.
03/17/03 at 20:05:38
sofia

Re: George Bush
BrKhalid
03/18/03 at 05:57:52
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]There should be absolutely no forgiving certain individuals for their sins[/quote] As Sr Sofia said each to their own. I’m curious, however, why someone would think like this? Care to elaborate a bit Dude. What *exactly* is the issue here? For example is it because of the gravity of the sin or maybe the insincerity of the individual repenting? [quote]After all, it is pretty much impossible to ask any convert to 100% accept Islam into their hearts[/quote] Accepting is easy, its implementation that’s more difficult even for those born into the religion.

Re: George Bush
kingzdaughter1
03/18/03 at 08:21:52
I tried so hard to refrain from posting for many reasons, including: a) this is waaaaaaaaaay off the topic b) what does this have to do with the Ummah? I think it's more Manar orientated and c) this is talking about forgiveness in the Islamic faith, which I think it is implicit that I am no such expert on the matter...  ::) but I cannot help it... I understand that you feel everyone should be punished for their deeds- but I cannot reconcile that with the concept of no forgiveness. I mean in the stories that come to my mind (obviously Christian) people who were forgiven sins after conversion, basically paid for their previous sins in this lifetime. What about the Islamic characters who converted to Islam? Not that to me it matters whether people suffer retribution in this life or the next- selfish as it may be, I have my own sins to worry bout...  :( God not forgiving a person's sin is such a (literally) hopeless situation- why would a person continue if they couldn't hope in God's mercy? what on earth can they continue on?? I can't even find words to write this post, the concept is so troubling. I mean, firstly in regards to conversion, I imagine conversion to any religion is a start-clean action, and in undertaking this new religion, you are promising to follow God and live a new life. Repentance is such a natural consequence- does repentance make any difference in your mind? wow, I am fascinated by your thinking, to say the least- maybe I should go, think this over and write more when I'm a bit calmed down- this post is everywhere I know, but the thought of God not forgiving- even certain sins- it's something I never heard of before, it's so foreign to me but all I can say is that I hope God is a lot more forgiving than us humans...

Re: George Bush
humble_muslim
03/18/03 at 10:03:14
AA I agree with the last post.  There's no way I would have turned to being a better muslim if it wasn't for God's mercy and forgiveness for my previous sins. And of course God IS more forgving than men, in fact one of His attributes is Arrahorahimeen, "Most Merciful of those who are Merciful".
NS

Re: George Bush
Dude
03/18/03 at 13:52:10
Boy, I've certainly wound a lot of you up. Hopefully I can summarize: 1.      I believe God has a balance book for everyone. Certain deeds get you credits, certain deeds get you debits. I believe God will decide where you’re going on Judgment Day, and for how long. 2.      I also believe that there are certain heinous acts (rape & murder, for example) that simply cannot be forgiven- by society or God. Yes, everyone has their sins…I’m just talking about the extreme here. I personally wouldn’t grant forgiveness to anyone who commits certain heinous acts, and I hope God wouldn’t either. I believe that if you commit certain heinous acts (assuming you are of sound body and mind), you forfeit your right to a place in civilized society, and you will be punished for eternity on Judgment Day. So to answer one question, it is because of the gravity of the sin that I feel this way. I don’t care how sincere one is in asking God for forgiveness; my hope is that God sends that person on a one-way trip down under. Again, to keep this in perspective, I’m only referring to the extreme heinous acts in life. I don’t think I need to start outlining those- we all know where I’m going. Also, I would tend to disagree that accepting is easy, while implementation is more difficult. I would think that once one has truly accepted the religion, and truly believes in it in their heart, that the implementation should come much easier. Acceptance is clearly the most difficult for me. Implementation of the pillars, for example, isn’t really that difficult (although you really need to accept the religion to fully implement all the pillars…so there you go). Yes, this is way off topic now, but it is interesting conversation. Perhaps a Mod will split this to another thread somewhere else. :-[
03/18/03 at 13:54:53
Dude

Re: George Bush
kingzdaughter1
03/18/03 at 23:55:08
before the mods change the position of the thread  ::) (Dude I just wanna make it clear that this isn't an attack on you, or your beliefs- it's just I never imagined thinking about these things, so I'm a bit excited at all these new thoughts in my head...) I thought, and thought hard. You have no idea how much I strongly felt about this thread. In replying I even broke two of my self imposed rules that I made prior to registering, rules I vowed I'd never break (oopsie) I thought for hours why the idea of God not forgiving all sins upset me. I understand your point that you are only applying this to extreme sins, but still, - then suddenly it hit me (I lost the icon with a light bulb lighting up!! maybe for a reason, cause no light really lit up in my head in real life... hehehe, I digress) u wanna know why it bothered me? God isn't like us, and He's not *meant* to be like us. He's perfect. Perfect in  His mercy, in His wisdom, in His Glory and Majesty, in His love, in His forgiveness, in His unconditional acceptance- in everything. Humans aren't. If God didn't forgive all sins, just the little ones, He'd be too much like us- His love and acceptance would be limited. That reminds me too much of humans and not enough of God. I can imagine humans forgiving certain sins but not all. but not God likewise, I can imagine God forgiving all sins, not just some. but not society that's just it- society's basis for forgiveness is limited by human hearts- but God is not limited by that, and thus, His forgiveness will be different- am I making sense!? The God in my heart, and in the Scriptures of all religions that I have ever heard of (here's an exercise- anyone know of a religion where their Divine Being forgives only certain sins?) is so loving and forgiving, He'd forgive everything and anything. Mind you, God is perfect in His justice and His mercy, so we have no need to worry- how that will work on Judgement Day, we will find out one day, but as for repentance now, I believe He forgives everything... :) peace out

Re: George Bush
Kathy
03/19/03 at 08:15:07
[slm] [quote]we will find out one day, but as for repentance now, I believe He forgives everything... [/quote] Just thinking out loud... other than shirk(believing in another god), how do you feel about the concept that Allah swt forgives...but still punishes you?

Re: George Bush
sofia
03/19/03 at 09:35:59
George Bush to God's forgiveness, interesting digression, but it somehow all relates to the original question. Before I go into the reason for my post, just wanted to give one example of the type of person whose repentance will not be accepted, Allaahu A'lim. When the Pharaoh had chased Moses, alayhis salaam, into the sea, he pretty much knew he was going to die and "meet his Maker." Why? Because even though he had brazenly killed several hundreds of people in horrific ways and declared himself to be God, he knew there was a Just God he'd have to answer to (at least, at the last minute). So as he was drowning, he tried to declare the shahadah. He was barely able to - it was rejected. There is a point when it's too late and there is the issue of sincerity, both points only God can judge, and that's the original point I wanted to get across. Anyhow, I realize now that I hadn't explained why I put up the hadith about the man who killed 99 people. Like Dude, I'd consider his crimes (ie, murder) pretty heinous. But unlike God, I'm not Ar-Rahmaan (The Most-Merciful) or Al-Ghafoor (The Forgiving) or Al-Adl (The Just) or Al-Hakeem (The All-Wise). Here's the problem (just a mental exercise): What kind of society would we live in if people had lost all hope of being forgiven for their big crimes? What would deter them from repeating it, or even, doing worse? [Now keep in mind, capital punishment can't take care of/catch everyone who may fall into this category]
03/19/03 at 09:38:37
sofia

Re: George Bush
Dude
03/19/03 at 11:26:37
[quote]Here's the problem (just a mental exercise): What kind of society would we live in if people had lost all hope of being forgiven for their big crimes? What would deter them from repeating it, or even, doing worse? [/quote] Let's take this to the extreme that I'm talking about. If any of you are familiar with the crimes of Clifford Olsen, you'll know where I'm going. Olsen is a mass child murderer. He literally lurked in the bushes, pulled young kids in, sexually assaulted them, and then killed them. Girls and boys. I think 12 in all. He was committing these crimes in my home town (Coquitlam, BC) when I was a kid. None of us were allowed outside for a long time. Let's say Olsen, sitting in solitary confinement in his jail cell, all of a sudden found his faith (let's say Islam), and asked God for forgiveness... My hope is that God would say, "No. You're going to Hell, and you're no longer one of my children." Also, the example of the guy who killed 99 people, felt remorse, found his faith, but then killed a clergy-man again because he didn't like what he said goes to show that this person in particular was not deterred from repeating the crime. He found his faith, and then killed again anyways. I don't believe people like these should be forgiven. Ever. Let 'em burn. I accept the concept of forgiveness for most sins. I believe a person can "make it up" to God...for the most part. That said, there are some sins (rape & murder) that should never be forgiven. I sure hope God doesn't forgive these types of sinners. I guess we'll all find out some day. If I'm sharing a cloud with Olsen, I'm going to ask to go the other way...at least I'll see some old buddies down there. ;)
03/19/03 at 11:27:50
Dude

Re: George Bush
sofia
03/19/03 at 11:35:20
[quote]Also, the example of the guy who killed 99 people, felt remorse, found his faith, but then killed a clergy-man again because he didn't like what he said goes to show that this person in particular was not deterred from repeating the crime. He found his faith, and then killed again anyways.  [/quote] Clarification: He was looking for answers. He got, "You won't be forgiven," before he knew what faith was, thus, did what he did. Then he asked someone else some questions on faith, and was on his way to find out the answers (he may or may not have found faith at that point). That's when he died. Just wanted to clarify. And about Olsen, I can understand your angst. Making the shahadah like the Pharaoh did, is making a mockery of God and His Forgiveness. Again, you or I don't know what's in a person's heart, and I wanted to steer clear from that. I wanted, instead, to figure out what kind of world we'd live in,  if there was no hope for forgiveness, whether for the sincere ones, or for those "on the edge." Whether God would actually forgive them or not, I'm not going into, Allaahu A'lim.
NS
03/19/03 at 12:51:04
sofia

Re: George Bush
BrKhalid
03/19/03 at 12:21:03
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There was a person before you who had killed ninety-nine persons and then made an inquiry about the learned persons of the world (who could show him the way to salvation). He was directed to a monk. He came to him and told him that he had killed ninety-nine persons and asked him whether there was any scope for his repentance to be accepted. He said: No. He killed him also and thus completed one hundred. He then asked about the learned persons of the earth and he was directed to a scholar, and he told him that he had killed one hundred persons and asked him whether there was any scope for his repentance to be accepted. He said: Yes; what stands between you and the repentance? You better go to such and such land; there are people devoted to prayer and worship and you also worship along with them and do not come to the land of yours since it was an evil land (for you). So he went away and he had hardly covered half the distance when death came to him and there was a dispute between the angels of mercy and the angels of punishment. The angels of mercy said: This man has come as a penitant and remorseful to Allah and the angels of punishment said: He has done no good at all. Then there came another angel in the form of a human being in order to decide between them. He said: You measure the land to which he has drawn near. They measured it and found him nearer to the land where he intended to go (the land of piety), and so the angels of mercy took possession of it. Qatada said that Hasan told him that it was said to them that as death approached him, he crawled upon his chest (and managed) to slip in the land of mercy[Muslim] [hr] I haven't got time to reply today but reading the full text of this Hadith sure does answer some of your questions Dude. And Xtian Learner..hmm..you sure you're not a Muslim? ;-) [quote]What kind of society would we live in if people had lost all hope of being forgiven for their big crimes?[/quote] Excellent point. Certainly one to think about
03/19/03 at 12:30:10
BrKhalid

Re: George Bush
Dude
03/19/03 at 14:53:52
[quote]I haven't got time to reply today but reading the full text of this Hadith sure does answer some of your questions Dude.[/quote] The Hadith does answer my question, but my point is, I choose to not believe the Hadith. He killed 99 people, then another for good measure. If I'm interpreting this correctly, he felt remorse, consulted with the monk. He then killed him because he wasn't satisfied with the answer, and presumably, because he felt that because there would be no forgiveness. Why not kill again? Nothing to lose, right? The problem for me here is that this person was tested, and failed miserably. God gave the test. The murderer had the choice to re-offend- having already made a clear distinction between right and wrong- and made the wrong choice for the 100th time. If somebody truly felt remorseful for their actions, that remorse would stop them from doing it again. He'd resist his temptations to commit the same sin again. It seems absolutely absurd to me that God would forgive this man, especially after he willingly chose to re-offend, even after distinguishing right from wrong. Showing respect & love for God, while showing complete disregard for the lives of of your fellow man shouldn't be grounds for forgiveness. My intention here isn't to insult your beliefs; just to try and show your where I'm coming from. Yes, a look into the inner thoughts of Dude...be afraid, be very afraid... ;)
03/19/03 at 14:57:12
Dude

Re: George Bush
Tesseract
03/19/03 at 14:54:11
Assalamu 'alaikum/hi,              Excellent post by Xtian Learner. May Allah guide all of us to the Staright Path (Ameen).                 [quote]Another reason I can't accept the religion, or any other...the idea of forgivance if you convert. There are some acts in life that can't and shouldn't be forgiven. To me, murder is one. Rape is another. I don't care if you're Jesus or Mohammed themselves- if you kill, and it isn't self defence, it's wrong. God should NEVER forgive anyone for that. [/quote]                  Perhaps, it is a part of the imperfection of human beings to be unable to completely comprehend the meaning of "Perfection" that is attributed to God. The thing is, Dude, u and we are none to tell God what HE should do and what HE shouldn't. Whatever He chooses to do is perfect justice, that is what our belief is (in Islam, and now I am almost sure of Christianity as well, after reading Xtian Learner's post). And to believe in the Perfection of God and to submit to it, is what Islam is. Stop seeing things from ur eyes, and try to see things what God wants u to see.            [quote]1.      I believe God has a balance book for everyone. Certain deeds get you credits, certain deeds get you debits. I believe God will decide where you’re going on Judgment Day, and for how long. 2.      I also believe that there are certain heinous acts (rape & murder, for example) that simply cannot be forgiven- by society or God. [/quote]          [quote]I do strongly beleive in the Day of Judgement.[/quote]               It's very evident from ur posts that u do believe in God, but how and what God does, is where ur thoughts are distorted. God is perfect in His knowledge and actions. He knows what is going on in the deepest part of earth, and He knows what is going on at the farthest point in this whole Universe. He also knows who is doing what and why, which includes good and bad both. That is how perfect His knowledge is. Now, Perfection of His actions is whatever God decides to do, whether punish a person or forgive him/her, is perfect justice that comes out of His perfect knowledge of things.           [quote]1.      I believe God has a balance book for everyone. Certain deeds get you credits, certain deeds get you debits. I believe God will decide where you’re going on Judgment Day, and for how long.[/quote]                  So, u believe God has a balance book for everyone. Now, if God chooses to give credits to a murderer or a rapist, or on the other hand chooses to debit from a person's account of good deeds although the person was perhaps the most righteous, pious, God-fearing person on this earth, do u think God would be cheating on someone or God would be telling lies? Who would He cheat on? Why would He cheat when it won't bring Him any benefit, since God is above any needs that can either benefit Him or harm Him. There is no creation Greater than Him for He is the Greatest, independent of anything, neither is there anyone to whom He is to be held answerable. He has no fear whatsoever, for His creation is to fear Him and not vice versa.                 Give me one example where u think If God would forgive a rapist or a murderer, (which He can do because He is the Most Merciful and Forgiving which again is an attribute to His perfection, perfection in His knowledge, His justice, His wisdom etc.) He would do it for a reason, which could be (Na'audhibillah) a mistake on His part. I am sure, ur reasoning will be based on perception of God being imperfect, which is not the case. Wallahu Ta'ala A'lam ( And Allah Knows the Best).

Re: George Bush
Dude
03/19/03 at 15:15:30
[quote] Give me one example where u think If God would forgive a rapist or a murderer, (which He can do because He is the Most Merciful and Forgiving which again is an attribute to His perfection, perfection in His knowledge, His justice, His wisdom etc.) He would do it for a reason, which could be (Na'audhibillah) a mistake on His part. I am sure, ur reasoning will be based on perception of God being imperfect, which is not the case. Wallahu Ta'ala A'lam ( And Allah Knows the Best). [/quote] I can't think on any situation where God would forgive rape or murder. Not one. Those two acts are basically the two most heinous acts I can think of- weather done on a mass scale, or only once. Killing by self defense, involuntary man slaughter, accident, in war time (take your pick)...none of these are considered the same as Murder. We define Murder as a voluntary choice- the person intended to kill the other, and had no grounds. I agree that God is perfect- which is why I also believe he wouldn't make the error of forgiving the man who killed 99 + 1. You say my thoughts are distorted...I guess I could take that as an insult, but at the same time, that's basically what I've been saying about certain religious beliefs...so I'll leave that one alone. I think I make my belief and opinion pretty clear. Now I have a question for you. I've admitted that I don't profess to be "religious" in the sense that I don't call myself Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, or whatever. Let’s assume that aside from my non-religious stance, I am an otherwise contributing member of our society: I have never committed a crime, I support and raise my family, I help the poor, and generally make a positive impact on my community. But, I'm Agnostic, and as far as I know, we don't have a book. If I were a practicing Muslim, I'd be considered to be a good "brother", worthy of God's praise. Let's say my example, Clifford Olsen, does find his faith one day sitting in Jail (from where he'll never get out to indulge himself again), and accepts Islam into his heart. On our days of Judgment, where do we go? Does he go to heaven? Do I go to hell?

Re: George Bush
sofia
03/19/03 at 16:23:36
Dude. [sigh] Do you think the man who killed 99 people would have killed the next one, had he found out that God is the Forgiver? And where do you get that he knew the difference between right and wrong? He killed 99 people! What kind of morality-training do you think he had? He was told there was no hope for him when he asked for help/knowlege, so what's the point, why not commit another murder? Don't you realize the connection there? how much the idea of Mercy/Forgiveness can affect people's behavior? When you tell people that their "major crimes" will not be forgiven, what do you think that will do to the crime rate? From major crimes to even worse, wouldn't you think? One of the reasons for God's mercy, wAllaahu A'lim, is to not only to forgive the sincere ones, but to give hope/deter hopelessness that may lead to further major crimes. Things are connected in a lot more ways than one. One example: You tell a rapist that he has no other recourse but to burn in Hell. If he was never "caught" (ie, not killed for his crime, or put away from society) what would he do once he heard this news? What's the point, why not commit some more of the same crime? Heck, he's "going to hell" anyway! [Side comment: Just to give you an idea of how Islaamic shari'ah would take care of rape - in most cases, a woman's testimony alone can convict a rapist. He is basically killed for his crime (ie, the death penalty. He's definitely out of the raping business). He can be repentant, and his taubah may even be accepted by God. But that's not the role of the state - their role is to rid him from society, to give a lesson to society, and to protect society form his committing the same crime again. Corporal punishment (ie, like the death penalty), at least for those who are truly ashamed and repent, may be the only punishment God ordains for that particular crime, depending. For those who are not repentant, they may be punished both in this life (temporary punishment via the Shari'ah) and the next (eternal punishment in Hell), Allaahu A'lim. But keep in mind, society won't be able to catch every rapist out there, unfortunately.] There's a story of a man who had come to the Caliph/Judge of his time and asked: "Can someone be forgiven for committing murder?" The Judge/Caliph said: "No." Another man came in and asked the exact same question. This time, the Judge/Caliph said: "Yes." A witness asked afterwards, "Why did you give both men 2 different answers?" He answered something to the affect of: "Because the first man was intent on killing a man, while the 2nd man had already killed a man and was looking to correct his actions." Another side comment - In Islaam, one cannot intend on doing a crime and expect to be forgiven, just because "God is the Forgiver." Again, that's making a mockery out of God, and God knows best. What I'm not getting from your analysis, is who you're benefitting by the "burn in Hell" argument. And as a disclaimer, I am in no way defending major crime-committers. Nothing personal, just trying to understand what the point would be, from your logic. How would it benefit society? The individual, themself? And lastly, there's no way any Muslim in their right mind can tell you where someone will go/what their judgement will be. Every intricate detail of a person's life/soul is known by God, and again He is The Judge.
NS

Re: George Bush
Dude
03/19/03 at 19:21:27
[quote]Another side comment - In Islaam, one cannot intend on doing a crime and expect to be forgiven, just because "God is the Forgiver." Again, that's making a mockery out of God, and God knows best. [/quote] This makes me feel better. In fact, much better. This tells me that not all will be forgiven, and that has been my point all along...not all should be forgiven. As to your society comment...who knows. I sure don't. I think people like this that commit such things do so without a single thought as to their duty to God...otherwise they wouldn't commit the sin. I don't think knowing they'd get forgiveness would deter further sins, but who knows...I'm not in their head. For the purpose of this discussion, I am referring to the person who commits these types of crimes, knowing full well the difference between right and wrong, but commit the sins anyhow. They exist- we all know that. Anyhow, we've probably beaten this one to death (pun intended). I now ask for all your forgiveness for dragging this out (pun intended). And, for all those who can't recognize light hearted humor, that was light hearted humor (the puns)...not insults towards any person, animal, sea creature, or tree. This is my disclaimer. One question: will there be Internet in Heaven? If I make it there, I'll need to get my jannah.org fix...because I'm clearly addicted. Is there a 12-step program to help me get off this addiction? I know...question for another thread… Back on topic: I'd buy Bush a cool suit if he ever converted.

Re: George Bush
BrKhalid
03/20/03 at 06:35:17
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) Dude the answer to the question: Can sins like murder be forgiven by Allah is a resounding Yes. That’s the first point. The second point [as the hadith shows] is that this forgiveness is on the condition that the servant *sincerely* repents. In Islam repentance [Tawbah] involves doing the following three things: 1.      There should be real regret over the sin 2.      The person should give up the sin at once. 3.      The person should resolve never to go back to that sin in the future. Since these things relate to one’s intention and matters of the heart, no human can tell whether someone is sincere when repenting or not. Hence the final decision can only rest with Allah. [quote] Another side comment - In Islaam, one cannot intend on doing a crime and expect to be forgiven, just because "God is the Forgiver." Again, that's making a mockery out of God, and God knows best.   This makes me feel better. In fact, much better. This tells me that not all will be forgiven, and that has been my point all along...not all should be forgiven.[/quote] Nope it tells you that repentance has to be sincere. Think of repentance like a door you have to walk through Dude: Allah has kept it open but: 1.      A person has to make an effort to walk through it 2.      There is no guarantee that Allah won’t close it shut. I get the impression you seem to think that because the door is there, everyone will pass through it. Again like the others have pointed out, only Allah decides who’s repentance will be accepted and who’s will not. [quote] Now I have a question for you. I've admitted that I don't profess to be "religious" in the sense that I don't call myself Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, or whatever. Let’s assume that aside from my non-religious stance, I am an otherwise contributing member of our society: I have never committed a crime, I support and raise my family, I help the poor, and generally make a positive impact on my community. But, I'm Agnostic, and as far as I know, we don't have a book. If I were a practicing Muslim, I'd be considered to be a good "brother", worthy of God's praise Let's say my example, Clifford Olsen, does find his faith one day sitting in Jail (from where he'll never get out to indulge himself again), and accepts Islam into his heart. On our days of Judgment, where do we go? Does he go to heaven? Do I go to hell?[/quote] Okay this is a whole new topic but an important question for non Muslims. Before I try and answer it Dude, let me ask you one question. Does the reason for your question stem from a feeling of injustice if Olsen is saved and you are doomed? If so, why? PS I’d like to thank everyone for their contributions in this thread. It just goes to show we can have a debate on the board without resorting to personal insults. ;-)
03/20/03 at 06:36:02
BrKhalid

Re: George Bush
sofia
03/20/03 at 08:59:45
[quote]This makes me feel better. In fact, much better. This tells me that not all will be forgiven, and that has been my point all along...not all should be forgiven.[/quote] That was, in a word, exhausting. [Figured we were all on the same page on this from the beginning, but I'm glad to hear this] :) [backing out of the conversation now] Peace

Re: George Bush
Tesseract
03/21/03 at 12:19:25
Hi Dude,         [quote]You say my thoughts are distorted...I guess I could take that as an insult, but at the same time, that's basically what I've been saying about certain religious beliefs...so I'll leave that one alone. I think I make my belief and opinion pretty clear.[/quote]                  No insult intended. I sincerely apologize for that. InshaAllah, I'll try my best to be careful. This is just a "discussion"  board, and here we are discussing something really interesting. So, please, bear with me  :)          [quote]I agree that God is perfect-[/quote]                  Alhamdulillah (All praise be to Allah)! So, we all agree that God is perfect but we are in disagreement on the definition of "Perfection". Before I say anything, I'd like to hear from u what is ur definition of Perfection? Does it include God's being infinite in His power and His actions, decisions, will, laws etc.? Is God the law-maker? Is He the ultimate authority? Are humans outright imperfect or are they equally perfect as God?            [quote]I agree that God is perfect- which is why I also believe he wouldn't make the error of forgiving the man who killed 99 + 1.[/quote]                   The religious perspective of God is that God and error cannot go together, and I am sure u will agree with me on that since u say that God is Perfect and perfection is absence of any defect, restriction, negativity. So, that also implies that there are no "ifs" and "buts" around God's decision. I say that because one way of interpreting ur statement is that IF God forgives the man who killed 99 + 1, God will be making an error, which God cannot. So, lets not say anything like which implies committing "error" on God's part. But, I can understand that it came out based on ur firm belief that God WILL NOT forgive rapists and murderers.               [quote]I can't think on any situation where God would forgive rape or murder. Not one. Those two acts are basically the two most heinous acts I can think of- weather done on a mass scale, or only once.[/quote]                Why are u so particular about these 2 crimes? Tell me Why should God forgive kidnapping for ransom? Why should God forgive street-robbers, thieves or dacoits who can cause permanent life-long disabilities to innocent civilians? Why should God forgive child-abusers? Or Why God should/can forgive ANY other crime whether small or big but not Rape and Murder? My point here is, that ur inference of God not forgiving rape and murder is based on ur emotions, and not really on the authority of God. Basically, u are restricting God in His decisions. If every other person starts thinking like u, then each one of us has to have His own God whom we can ask/tell/expect to do what WE believe is correct and not what other person and God Himself believes is correct. It is as if God should submit to My will and not vice versa.             [quote]Now I have a question for you. I've admitted that I don't profess to be "religious" in the sense that I don't call myself Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, or whatever. Let’s assume that aside from my non-religious stance, I am an otherwise contributing member of our society: I have never committed a crime, I support and raise my family, I help the poor, and generally make a positive impact on my community. But, I'm Agnostic, and as far as I know, we don't have a book. If I were a practicing Muslim, I'd be considered to be a good "brother", worthy of God's praise. Let's say my example, Clifford Olsen, does find his faith one day sitting in Jail (from where he'll never get out to indulge himself again), and accepts Islam into his heart. On our days of Judgment, where do we go? Does he go to heaven? Do I go to hell? [/quote]                    As Br.Khalid and sis. sofia replied, no Muslim can say for sure about anybody (except those who have already been mentioned by God Himself as going either to hellfire or Paradise) who goes to hellfire and who goes to Paradise. None of us is authorized to judge that. The ultimate authority is God and He is to judge everyone according to His criteria which comes out of His perfect and complete knowledge of things, His wisdom, His love, His anger, His mercy etc. etc.               [quote]One example: You tell a rapist that he has no other recourse but to burn in Hell.   If he was never "caught" (ie, not killed for his crime, or put away from society) what would he do once he heard this news? What's the point, why not commit some more of the same crime? Heck, he's "going to hell" anyway!  [/quote]              do u dis/agree with this part?
03/21/03 at 12:23:07
Tesseract

Re: George Bush
UmmWafi
03/21/03 at 13:34:37
[slm] Thank you for clearing things up for me Dude.  As I mentioned before, at times my mind just wanders off and leave no forwarding address  ;D With regards to this thread, I was reminded of a discussion I had in class the other day.  We were discussing the Mu'tazilites physical theory and somehow we disgressed (as we always do) towards discussing the Murji'ites and Kharijites stance on God's Essence and Attributes as opposed to the Mu'tazilites.  One thing led to the other and we were down to the division of sifat al-Allah between sifat al-dhat and sifat al-af'iat.  To cut the story short, one of my lecturemates who was normally quiet put up his hand and asked another mate this "How are you so sure as to the rightness and the wrongness of the classification ? How long have you spent time getting to know God and how deep is your relationship to Him ?  Can you really claim that you know Him ?  I have been married for 15 years and spend considerable time with my wife everyday and yet I don't know everything about her." In some ways, he spoke the truth.  How many of us spend a considerable time everyday getting to know God ?  How many of us can claim that we know God, truly ?  It always amuses me how arrogant we are as a race.  Perhaps it is baggage brought forward from our historical encounter with el Arrogance himself, Iblis.  Yet, with our little knowledge we always presume to conclude because we always think we know.  Maybe some of us hesitate to accept a God who will forgive a rapist just because the rapist embraced a certain faith.  The tricky thing is, we don't know for certain what God will do or will not do.  At best we can make ra'iy based on available theological discussions on the issue.  Yet, should we reject that same God just because we don't know Him ? That, I believe, is a whole different ballgame altogether. My Prof concluded our digression by saying "When it comes to opinions, there will always be ikhtilaf.  The most important thing is to remember that the ikhtilaf must always happen in the process of us trying to be better Muslims and not because we indulge our ignorance." I am very much aware of how lamentably ignorant I am therefore I shall refrain from adding my two cents worth on God being ar-Raheem.  However, I do wonder how we can reject Beauty when the flaws perceived in that Beauty reside in our minds ? Wassalam.

Re: George Bush
Dude
03/22/03 at 10:31:52
BofI, You've asked a couple of questions that I'll attempt to address: [quote]Why are u so particular about these 2 crimes? Tell me Why should God forgive kidnapping for ransom? Why should God forgive street-robbers, thieves or dacoits who can cause permanent life-long disabilities to innocent civilians? Why should God forgive child-abusers? Or Why God should/can forgive ANY other crime whether small or big but not Rape and Murder? My point here is, that ur inference of God not forgiving rape and murder is based on ur emotions, and not really on the authority of God. Basically, u are restricting God in His decisions. If every other person starts thinking like u, then each one of us has to have His own God whom we can ask/tell/expect to do what WE believe is correct and not what other person and God Himself believes is correct. It is as if God should submit to My will and not vice versa. [/quote] This is basically the argument I've been trying to avoid...getting into the details. Suffice to say, kidnap on it's own doesn't measure up in it's heinousness to rape or murder. I just look at people whom commit rape or murderer as people who are evil to the core, because the take the two most precious things a person has (life, innocence) for the sole purpose of satisfying themselves. We can get into the details of every crime you can think up, and debate those, but that topic would surely get too drawn out. I’m just trying to keep the topic simple, for discussion purposes. Also, I'm not going to compare the others you've mentioned with rape and murder. Yes, those are sins, but they don't compare. I'll leave it at that. You also asked if I disagreed with Sofia's post. It doesn't matter if I agree or not, because it is an argument more to do with how we behave in society, but has no relevance to the Judgment Day discussion. I agree that some may react this way, and continue to commit if there is no hope of forgiveness. If that's the case, they'll get theirs in the end.
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