A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| War: Guidelines for American Muslim Leaders |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 03/20/03 at 00:22:32 |
| War in Iraq: Guidelines for American Muslim Leaders The war on Iraq presents a new set of challenges to the American Muslim community, and magnifies existing ones. During this critical time, a heavy responsibility falls on the shoulders of our community's leaders. Those in a position of such leadership must educate and guide their communities in a direction that will help them sustain their security and faith in these difficult times. Leaders must explain this war to their communities in a reasonable and factual manner, and they must take actions on their community's behalf that will serve their interest and maintain their safety. With that in mind, the Muslim American Society has prepared this set of talking points and guidelines as a roadmap for guiding their communities through this crisis safely and securely. What Muslims Feel About This War As part of enjoining good and forbidding evil, American Muslims are concerned with the cause of peace and justice. But we are particularly concerned with Iraqi issue because it involves a direct confrontation of our country with a Muslim nation, which apparently puts the cohesiveness of our American Muslim identity to the test. However, principled positions based on sound methodology and careful analysis of the situation always bring harmony between our commitment to Islam and our civic duties, because by following the truth and standing out firmly for justice one would help the cause of Allah (SWT) and serve the best interest of all humanity. And Islam leaves no excuse for bias or injustice under any circumstances. We believe that this war, which is waged in spite of the UN Security Council and worldwide opposition, does not serve the best interest of our nation, and will further devastate the Iraqi people who are still suffering from the consequences of previous wars and crippling sanctions. Our opposition, which is based on solid religious, moral, patriotic, and humanitarian grounds, concurs with the positions of most religious and civic leaders and groups, many members of Congress, a number of veterans, and some outspoken families of the victims of 9/11 terrorist attacks. Declared justifications and objectives of the war are neither consistent nor convincing, especially when considering the double-standard trend in our foreign policy in dealing with dictators or with weapons of mass destruction. The community should be reminded that this war has nothing to do with religion. Indeed, the war was opposed by the leadership of virtually all religious communities. The war has also nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction, promotion of democracy, or the crackdown on terrorism. The real motives for the war are political and economical. It is also the natural result of philosophical underpinnings and intrinsic flaws of both systems. The dictatorship in the oil rich Iraq has led to a string of fatal decisions that made it an easy target of the most powerful lobbies in the US: a. The military industrial complex, which is constantly on the look for new enemies and more wars which constitute opportunities to experiment with new weapons and justification for an ever increasing budget. b. The multinational corporations, which are constantly on the look for cheap resources and captive markets c. The pro-Israeli lobby, which is trying to achieve unequivocal superiority for Israel in the region. In addition to oppressing his people the Iraqi dictator made himself an easy target by attacking his neighbors, thus loosing any regional support and paralyzing an already cosmetic Arab and Islamic alliances. On the other hand, the balance (or the arrogance) of power and the belief in a universal civilization, and the "I am better than him" syndrome have always resulted in hegemony and a drive to control the world. However, one cannot deny that the prevailing perception in the Muslim World is that this war is war on Islam, another crusade. Like Muslims elsewhere, our opposition to some government policies does not diminish our love for our country and our commitment to its security and prosperity. We strive to serve its best interests by standing out firmly for justice at home and abroad, and calling for meaningful reforms. Our principled and legitimate opposition to the war does not imply any sympathy with the ruthless Iraqi dictator, who terrorized his people and his neighbors and led Iraq to devastating military conflicts. The world should be rid of the Iraqi regime and all similar regimes. And the first step is to stop supporting these dictators-a support that aborted so many attempts to establish real democracy-and to begin supporting real political pluralism in the Arab and Muslim world. But the change should not be cosmetic nor should it be imposed on people. Weapons may liberate land, but they do not liberate people. And the Iraqi people have already paid dearly for twelve years of attempting to eliminate the regime through weapons and sanctions. Action Items for Muslim Community Leaders After exhausting all the means to prevent what we believe is an unjust and unwarranted war with potentially serious repercussions on our nation, on the region and on the world peace, our community needs to be ready to properly deal with the potential fallouts of the eminent war. Therefore, we recommend the following: 1) Immediately call for an emergency meeting with other mosques and leaders in your local community. Develop a plan of action for your community and coordinate all efforts and events. Make communication and unity among yourselves a top priority. 2) Urge your community members to go about their life as normally as possible. Since our sisters are often the most visible, urge them to be extra vigilant as they go about their daily routine, especially in the first days of war. 3) Take all precautions to protect the community and its institutions from both external and internal challenges: A. Although experience in similar crises has shown us that the overwhelming response from our neighbors has been supportive and positive, there is the real possibility of incidents of backlash and possible vigilante attacks. Contact local law enforcement to share your concerns and develop points of contact and a plan to protect against backlash. Make phone numbers of the local law enforcement available to your members and urge members of community to immediately report any incident of unfair treatment. B. Guard against any irresponsible behavior or any attempt to steer the emotions of the community; because such behavior has no benefit and can and will be used to harm the Muslims. Make sure that your Imams and khateebs avoid inflammatory and inciting speech, and uses only facts and Islamic principles in any speech, rather than speculation. Local community leadership needs to monitor closely the situation in their centers and act decisively with any suspicious activities, including reporting to the local law enforcement. 4) Reach out to religious and civic organizations, and to local authorities to share your concerns. Work with them to develop programs to dispel the pervading fear and anxiety in our community and the society at large. Seek their support by addressing the public and the media with words of support to our neighbors, calling for calm, and cautioning against any vigilante attacks. 5) Contact the school districts and leadership to develop a plan that ensures the safety of Muslim children and their protection against any stereotyping, harassment, or act of hate. 6) Prepare and train your spokespersons and make them available to the media. Make sure they are informed, disciplined, and accurate in their message, and reassuring in tone. 7) Explain the nature of the war to your community members, using the outline we gave earlier. Reassuring them that the anti-war efforts are not useless. Rather, they are undertaken to discharge our religious duty of standing up for justice and our civic duty of participating in the decision making and in the national debate about shaping policies and deciding on how best to serve the national interests. 8) Spread hope and prevent people from falling into confusion, despair, or helplessness, which may in turn shake people's faith and spirit. What is happening is a Divine Destiny that is the work of Divine Rules and Laws that govern this universe. These Rules and Laws are not biased towards anyone. The closer people follow those Rules (knowingly or unknowingly), the more they prosper and prevail. What is needed is to discover those Rules and be able to apply them in our task of comprehensive reform. Muslims have abandoned the correct understanding of Islam and violated most of those Rules, and therefore they made themselves irrelevant and they should only blame themselves for this sad state of affairs. These events are a proof for the greatness of Islam and the need of Muslims and all humanity for the Divine Guidance to achieve universal justice and world peace, and put an end to the 'might-makes-right' doctrine. 9) Urge members of the community in these tough times to get closer to Allah (SWT) and to each other. Members of our community need to intensify their worship and extra deeds (fasting, reading Quran, remembrance of Allah, and night prayers). They also need to intensify their prayers for peace, and their supplications to Allah (SWT) that innocent lives be spared. 10) Encourage Muslims to stay focused on their mission of planting the seeds of a better community, better America, and better world without being hostages of the past or present situation and without looking for immediate results. People reap today what they sowed yesterday, and will reap tomorrow that they sow today. Difficult times calls, if anything, for more dedication to live up to the challenges. And proper handling of events means drawing lessons and moving on. 11) Remember that while monitoring the situation in Iraq, praying for the least damaging outcome, and calling for an end to the war, we should continue our efforts of public education (through outreach, civic participation, and coalition buildings) and community empowerment (through education, training, coordination, and building needed institutions). We should never be intimidated and allow difficult circumstances to cause us to set aside our obligations of da'wa and pursuing the community's best interests. 12) Look for opportunities to help innocent Iraqi victims of the war. If approved avenues become available to give money or goods, such as through the Red Cross or UNICEF, the community should do its part and donate. [i]"Oh ye who believe! Persevere in patience and constancy; vie in such perseverance; strengthen each other; and fear Allah, that ye may prosper." -- Qur'an 3:200[/i] |
| NS |
| Re: War: Guidelines for American Muslim Leaders |
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| Halima |
| 03/20/03 at 00:49:19 |
| May Allah Subhana Wataala safeguard all Muslims in America and Europe at this difficult time. You are more vuneralbe than us in Africa and Asia. May Allah Subhana Wataala have mercy on the people of Iraq. Our hearts are heavy and sad. Ya Allah, you are the Merciful, the all Knowing, the Defender of the innocent, the One who can punish the arrogant. Ya Allah, your Umma is standing before you in supplication and guidance. Ya Allah, Ya Allah, Ya Allah, hear us and help the people of Iraq. Ameen. Halima |
| Re: War: Guidelines for American Muslim Leaders |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/20/03 at 09:50:03 |
| [slm] [quote author=Abu_Hamza link=board=ummah;num=1048137753;start=0#0 date=03/20/03 at 00:22:32]The community should be reminded that this war has nothing to do with religion.[/quote] That's a lie. What kind of thing is this to be saying? We've heard from Bush that it is a crusade. They have counted the mosques, harassed muslims here in the US by the immigration and FBI, and are going into every Muslim country. If anything we need to understand this is an attack on Islam. Sure politics and economics are part of, but don't make something up and say it has NOTHING to do with religion. Religion is a very big part of the matter. Israel's security is at risk, and all Muslims know that Israel has no right to exist, so naturally Israel wants to remove the threat from any Muslim countries around them. |
| NS |
| Re: War: Guidelines for American Muslim Leaders |
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| Maliha |
| 03/20/03 at 10:18:41 |
| [wlm] This reminds me a couple of sisters from the Islamic Center here and I got interviewed by a local paper. The guy asked "how did you feel when Bush made the slip and said the word Crusade?" I said "That was the truest statement he has ever made. Although he took it back, all his actions indicate that the war against terror is really a war against Islam and Muslims. How else would you describe Guantamo bay, the Patriotic Act, Secret Evidence, the war on Iraq, Afghanistan, the flagrant support of Israel? The list continues..." The reporter was like :o I don't think he expected all that from a meek, submissive, :-) Sis, Maliha [wlm] |
| Re: War: Guidelines for American Muslim Leaders |
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| BroHanif |
| 03/20/03 at 14:41:54 |
| Salaams [quote]We believe that this war, which is waged in spite of the UN Security Council and worldwide opposition, does not serve the best interest of our nation, and will further devastate the Iraqi people who are still suffering from the consequences of previous wars and crippling sanctions[/quote] When we disregared Sharia Law,a law that is perfect and adopt the UN law that is run by men and women whose goal is greed, crookedness, dishonesty and every other sin in the book then we are going to face ruin. We must return to the commands of Allah, and the Sunnah. We must leave aside all the practices of the Kafir UN, as it is nothing but a false promise of security and order. When we do that and return to Allahs Law we will be victorious. Salaams Hanif |
| NS |
| The U.N., South American Debt, and Al Gore |
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| SuperHiMY |
| 03/20/03 at 15:16:50 |
AsalamAlayKum, More than a decade ago now, I recall that the U.N. quote the Qur'an as the ONLY Solution to the Debt problem by South American Countries. At that time, the total Interest payments remitted to North America when added up had exceeded the principal amount of cash U.S. Based banks had loaned them in the first place. So the U.N. encourage South America to Default on the Interest and only pay the principal if they had not done so. Hey, The U.N. could evolve into the Ummah Nation... ( I can dream can't I? ) Maliha, That 'Crusade' word said by The U.S. President is very much like the time when he was the Republican Candidate running for President. He used a specific word to describe a reporter. It was caught on tape. Oops. If only two Supreme Court justices had voted to extend the time and allow Al Gore to continue his 'campaign', would World War IV be on right now? (The Cold War was World War III and the Communists lost). hmmm.... Bartlett For President? |
| Re: War: Guidelines for American Muslim Leaders |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 03/20/03 at 18:23:40 |
| The guy asked "how did you feel when Bush made the slip and said the word Crusade?" I said "That was the truest statement he has ever made. While the word crusade has a cetain negative meaning to Muslims, it has absolutely not the same meaning when it is used by a typical american or Christian. Do you really think that Americans or Christians sit around and are planning the next crusade? If anything we need to understand this is an attack on Islam. Sure politics and economics are part of, but don't make something up and say it has NOTHING to do with religion. Religion is a very big part of the matter. Israel's security is at risk, and all Muslims know that Israel has no right to exist, so naturally Israel wants to remove the threat from any Muslim countries around them. So from your line of thinking, the Israelis (since they think they have a right to exist) think it is a war against the jews and has everything to do with religion against them. So why wouldn't they do anything and everything to defend themselves? Since Israel has been around longer then I have, why don't you think they have a right to exist? Is it because they have stolen the land? If that is the case, Why did you or your family come to the United States? It is stolen land from the Indian nations. If the Indians asked you to leave, would you? I doubt it. |
| Re: War: Guidelines for American Muslim Leaders |
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| panjul |
| 03/20/03 at 21:58:14 |
| [slm] since they think they have a right to exist) Yeah, the right to exist on stolen land. about 2000 years ago (or was it more?) they thought they had the right to take away land from the gentiles and now in the 20th century, they all decided to take it again from the gentiles. Your analogy of the Native Americans doesn't make sense. They orginally welcomed the white people, they thought they were there to share and hunt and live like them. Boy were they wrong! We have no fight with our Native American brothers and sisters. If they asked anyone to leave America, it would probably be white people considering they were the ones who came here with a shotgun and a bible in their hands to convert the heathens and civilize them. So since our Muslim ancestors did not come here with a sword or a Quran in their hand then they won't ask us to leave, besides even before Columbus came here, some Native Americans were Muslims anyway........ |
| Re: War: Guidelines for American Muslim Leaders |
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| BrKhalid |
| 03/21/03 at 06:51:26 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) Mike I think you have to realise one thing. Your leaders in America have a different definition of Islam than the one which has been laid down to us by Allah. They view Islam (and wish to portray Islam) in the manner that they wish. Of course this can never be acceptable to those who sincerely follow the Islamic faith. |
| Re: War: Guidelines for American Muslim Leaders |
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| sofia |
| 03/21/03 at 09:47:55 |
| [quote]While the word crusade has a cetain negative meaning to Muslims, it has absolutely not the same meaning when it is used by a typical american or Christian.[/quote] Interesting point. What, exactly, is the typical Christian definition of "The Crusades?" Are our leaders so ignorant as to not realize the connotation it has for non-Christians? [quote]..all Muslims know that Israel has no right to exist, so naturally Israel wants to remove the threat from any Muslim countries around them. [/quote] Bhaloo, by limiting the larger issue of racism, genocide and occupation of a people's land [color=red](*after* International Laws had already been put in place to deter another situation like European settlers landing on the Native populations in North America)[/color] with inpunity to the indignation of Muslim and non-Muslim nations, alike -- into this little statement -- the real issue will never be understood. I know this has been discussed in more detail in other threads, but let's give readers the benefit of the doubt, and assume they have no idea what's going on in Palestine and Israel and/or only go by the information fed to them. [quote]So why wouldn't they do anything and everything to defend themselves? [/quote] Even ignoring the issue of Interational law and utterly inadequate leadership on both sides, do you think the two sides (Israel and Palestine) are on equal grounds? When you see Israeli tanks, do you see them being met with Palestinian tanks? When you see Israeli bulldozers tearing down Palestinian homes, do you see them being matched by Palestinian bulldozers tearing down Israeli homes? When you see Palestinians being checked and blocked at various checkpoints just to get to and from work/school by Israeli soldiers, do you see the same checkpoints for Israelis by Palestinian soldiers? When you see Israeli settlers armed with rifles trying to live on the West Bank, do you see Palestinian settlers armed with rifles trying to live in Israel? When you hear of Palestinian children being maimed (even the non-rock-throwers) by Israeli soldiers, how often do you hear the same of Israeli children being maimed by Palestinian soldiers? While one side is fearful of going to the beach or club "in peace," the other side is fearful of even going to the hospital, work, or school "in peace." Disclaimer: I don't condone suicide attacks or attacks on civilians, women, children or the environment. The issue of defending one's self connotes that one has the right to live, to work, to travel, to learn. Let's honestly assess who has that right, and who is being denied that right. When you see any level of equality there, then we can talk about "defending" one's self. Maybe seeing with our own eyes, one day, may be more helpful. When you have time, please consider checking out www.wrmea.com. Not asking you to believe everything you hear/read/see, just another resource to help round out your references on this issue. Might even want to check out Chris Hedge's Gaza Diary of you haven't already; it's one of many accounts out there (Rachel Corrie's being the most recent account you can read in another thread): http://www.harpers.org/online/gaza_diary/?pg=1 [quote] Do you really think that Americans or Christians sit around and are planning the next crusade? [/quote] Mike. If only I lived in your world. At least the view would be nice. "And when it is said to them, 'Make not mischief on Earth,' they say: 'We are the Peacemakers.' Verily, they are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive not." {Translation of the Qur'aan 2:11-12) Prophet Muhammad (S) once said to his companions: "There will come a day come that other nations will come upon you to plunder your wealth (and to exploit your resources) the way a group of eaters eat from one plate." The companions then asked: "Is it because we will be few (in number) then?" The Prophet (S) replied: "No, you will be many then, but you will be like the foam of the sea (ie, low-quality). Fear of you will be removed from the hearts of your enemies and your hearts will have in them 'wahn.'" The companions asked, "What is 'Wahn,' oh Mesenger of Allah?" The Prophet (S) replied: "It is the love of this life and fear from death." [Sunan Abu Dawud] |
| NS |
| 03/21/03 at 11:27:45 |
| sofia |
| Re: War: Guidelines for American Muslim Leaders |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 03/21/03 at 09:54:14 |
| Bro khalid, I would argue the same thing about Christianity. From what Panjul just said that muslims want to portray Chistians and missionaries carrying shotgun and a bible and that is just a sick way of looking at things. I could just as well say muslims are people who carry the Quran and strap a bomb to themselves and hope to get 72 virgins and i would be considered a racist and a bigot by everyone on this board. And i would argue that the same would be for the leaders of muslims nations (or i would hope that you would be in agreement) that they do not follow what the true definition of Islam is. Panjul, so if some of the native americans were Muslims then it is ok for muslims to come and take the land but not people who carry bibles and shotguns? And while the 1st explorers were welcomed for the vasat majority of indian nations they were not given much choice were they? |
| Muslims in the Americas Before Columbus |
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| SuperHiMY |
| 03/21/03 at 11:03:15 |
AsalamAlayKum, Looking at how this thread began all the way down to my post right here, I think in a strange way it may be precisely the dialogue Muslim American Leaders would encounter when trying to state their position. And that is, parallel conversations (or rather, too many parallel conversations at once). The immediate events in the world allow an easy entry into discussing symptoms of problems. And not the root causes of problem events.. The longer, civilization way of looking at the world, demands detachment from immediate events. And then reflection within Context. We all can debate whether there is any 100% example of an Islam Country run by an observant Muslim governor under the Rule of Law Of God-Alone and His Prophet(peace be upon him). What we cannot debate about is that there do exist Observant Muslim Individuals and Observant Muslim families. You bump into them here and there and everywhere. At this point in History, Islam as a civilization, and a community, as a nation, is not found in any one political entity or jurisdiction or under some flag, be it Arab populated countries, or Kosovo or Kurdistan or under a solid green flag or under the U.N. Flag. The Muslim Nation then is made up of like-minded individuals scattered all over Planet Earth. These 'Like minded' Individuals do their best to behave as the Last Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) did. Hence this 'like minded' behaviour transcends time and space. When like minded individuals see their fellow like minded individuals being violated, it sucks. It hurts. It is pain. It is family. The aboriginals peoples here in Toronto and around my province identify with the Christian and Muslim Palestinians. As Iraq becomes the U.S's 'Occupied Territories' alongside Israel's 'Occupied Territories', like minds will make like conclusions in regards to Policies to both occupied lands. I learned about the term 'Ad hominem' recently. It is basically attacking the messenger instead of disagreeing with the message. We can compare an observant Muslim Governor : Biography Of Sultan Abdul Hameed The Second (And The Fall Of The Islamic Khilafah) http://tyo.ca/islambank.community/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=85 With rulers on muslim populated lands today and see the difference. There less need for an 'ad hominem' attack on current Autocratic Rulers over Muslim Populated lands, and more need for being closer in our behaviour to the example set by the Last Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). 'Yeah, so?' HiMY's point? ..It can be summarized in the following article: (A) WAY FORWARD FOR MUSLIMS: http://tyo.ca/islambank.community/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1045 |
| Re: War: Guidelines for American Muslim Leaders |
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| panjul |
| 03/21/03 at 22:25:37 |
| From what Panjul just said that muslims want to portray Chistians and missionaries carrying shotgun and a bible and that is just a sick way of looking at things. I was talking about history. Every historian agrees that the people who came here to settle in America showed the bible as well as the gun to them. We are not talking about present day America or anywhere else. You should read all your posts again and then read mine again. It's not Muslims! Some of these writers are Christians. You have a nice way of twisting words around. I will give you the benefit of doubt and say it wasn't done on purpose. Panjul, so if some of the native americans were Muslims then it is ok for muslims to come and take the land but not people who carry bibles and shotguns? Woah. Where do you get that??? :o I suggest you read my post again! I mentioned that the Native Americans wouldn't have asked us to leave if we had come instead of the settlers...cuz many were Muslims anyway... so obviously Muslims had come here to the Americas before Columbus but they didn't decide to stay and conquer them and claim the land for themselves. The spanish and white settlers came here to steal their lands and force Christianity on the "heathens." A term virtually used by everyone but the Quakers back then when referring to the Native Americans. And while the 1st explorers were welcomed for the vasat majority of indian nations they were not given much choice were they? I don't get that question. have a nice day [wlm] |
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| jannah |
| 03/24/03 at 14:13:22 |
| [quote]The community should be reminded that this war has nothing to do with religion[/quote] [slm] I've been thinking about this thread alot the last few days and I really think this should be discussed among Muslims. And we need to come up with a definitive view. We shouldn't be so naive as to cute and paste from official white house statements into our own press releases!!! Is the Bush administration anti-Islam??? So let's evaluate the last 2 years.... * After 9/11 Muslim hate crimes were unchecked because the media consistently reported things in a manner as to blame the religion and not the people. * Muslims homes and businesses were raided.. No evidence was presented or has been presented since on why these specific one's were targeted besides the fact they were "muslim" * Prominent christian evangelists and leaders have said that Islam is a religion of terrorism, Muhammad [saw] is a terrorist etc. Without a single apology or reaction from officials. * Secret evidence, search without warrant, Patriot act I has been used almost exclusively on Muslims. * Massive detention and deportation of peoples from Muslim majority countries only. * Vetos of almost all UN resolutions condemning Israeli atrocities against the Palestinian people. * Enforcement of sanctions that continue to punish only the Iraqi people. * In fact, enforcement and military action almost exclusive to Muslim countries. * Racial profiling institutionalized, FBI harassment... I don't know, now I am the *last* probably the last person ever to believe in conspiracy theories or that the gov't is actually intellegent enough to plan to the detail strategy like this, but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.. what is it!!! When analyzed all of these actions seem to be purposely biased towards Muslims!! I probably don't think it's about Islam itself either although it influences things alot, but mostly about taking advantage of the opportunities and our weaknesses at the right times. ie Muslim world did nothing about Saddam who is an obvious tyrant and unjust leader, and now we're paying for it. So it comes down to us not following Islam properly. I really think Allah designed things so that if we followed it we would always be successful and no one would ever be able to bring harm on us. In this case our lack of unity, sell-outs, greed of dunya and so many other things have brought about what we see today. |
| 03/24/03 at 14:15:11 |
| jannah |
| Re: War: Guidelines for American Muslim Leaders |
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| Dude |
| 03/24/03 at 14:32:18 |
| [quote] Your analogy of the Native Americans doesn't make sense. They orginally welcomed the white people, they thought they were there to share and hunt and live like them. Boy were they wrong! We have no fight with our Native American brothers and sisters. If they asked anyone to leave America, it would probably be white people considering they were the ones who came here with a shotgun and a bible in their hands to convert the heathens and civilize them. So since our Muslim ancestors did not come here with a sword or a Quran in their hand then they won't ask us to leave, besides even before Columbus came here, some Native Americans were Muslims anyway........ [/quote] First of all, somebody needs to help me in my history lessons: where and when did Muslims first land on North American soil? I've always assumed the Vikings were the first foreigners to land on North America. Second, let's not start with the "my religion is better than your religion" debate. There are too many VERY GOOD EXAMPLES of very un-religious acts of both devout Muslims and Christians to argue any points down. Let's just say both certain Muslims and Christians (in this I include Catholics, Protestants, Baptist...any Christian based religion) can get a little too hot and bothered about how good their religion is, and how bad the others is. Give it a rest. Third: for someone who is quick to call any "Kaffir" (Kaffir is probably the most disgusting word one can use to describe another, BTW) a racist, you sure have no problem coming up with a few prejudice bombs of your own. Quite the lofty perch you preach from, I say. |
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| jannah |
| 03/24/03 at 14:34:06 |
| dude, question what do you think "kaffir" means?? and what do you think it implies? |
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| Dude |
| 03/24/03 at 14:51:23 |
| I posted the question elsewhere, actually (off topic, you know). Go here, and enlighten me: http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=madrasa;action=display;num=1048535034 . Suffice to say, I don't think the connotation is exactly a kind meaning. But hey, what do I know? I'm just a Kafir. To me it is disgusting. |
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| amatullah |
| 03/24/03 at 15:39:50 |
| [quote] First of all, somebody needs to help me in my history lessons: where and when did Muslims first land on North American soil? I've always assumed the Vikings were the first foreigners to land on North America. [/quote] there is some evidence that Muslims were here first. You should do some research on it. here is one I can immediately come up with from this site as well: http://jannah.org/articles/native.html [quote] Second, let's not start with the "my religion is better than your religion" debate. There are too many VERY GOOD EXAMPLES of very un-religious acts of both devout Muslims and Christians to argue any points down. Let's just say both certain Muslims and Christians (in this I include Catholics, Protestants, Baptist...any Christian based religion) can get a little too hot and bothered about how good their religion is, and how bad the others is. Give it a rest. [/quote] There is a difference when people are guided or misguided. There is a difference if they follow the word of man or the word of God. There is a difference if their live in light or darkness. Say what you want. You seem to always turn the argument into all people of all religions make atroicities. which is fine and dandy. BUT The religion is not it's followers. It is a perfect and complete way of life sent as a guidance from the Lord of all worlds. While other religions that are human-altered/made are NOT. You can find out the Truth if you open your eyes and seach honestly instead of having this constant argumentative ways and hidden agendas that are kind of all too obvious at times. You must be so sad. I pray to Allah that He opens up your heart to the Truth so as you can find its peace there. [quote] Third: for someone who is quick to call any "Kaffir" (Kaffir is probably the most disgusting word one can use to describe another, BTW) a racist, you sure have no problem coming up with a few prejudice bombs of your own. Quite the lofty perch you preach from, I say. [/quote] this is so typically you (on the board) you make huge assumptions and hide behind lies. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and trying to smear Islam in so many different ways. If you are here to learn and have a normal dialogue that is fine, but to insult us by saying a word that God Almighty has given to describe non-believers as disgusting and racist is out of line. |
| 03/24/03 at 15:40:39 |
| amatullah |
| Re: War: Guidelines for American Muslim Leaders |
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| amatullah |
| 03/24/03 at 15:45:41 |
| you can read the first page here to help understand better if you like: http://www.masmn.org/Books/Abul_Ala_Mawdudi/Towards_Understanding_Islam/002.htm |
| Re: War: Guidelines for American Muslim Leaders |
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| Dude |
| 03/24/03 at 16:45:58 |
| Get off your high horse. The word is insulting to me, and others around here. Just because you don’t think it is insulting doesn’t mean it isn’t. You & others throw the “racism” word around a lot. Explain to me, how my questioning the use of the word “Kafir”, can be considered racist, or even prejudice in any way? I’m merely expressing how I feel about being referred to as a “Kafir”. I think it is degrading. How am I being racist in this instance? Maybe you should learn what the word racism means, and what it means to be racist, before you throw the word around so carelessly. Such an easy way out, isn’t it? Call someone a racist, and hopefully they’ll go and hide, and never come back. Not likely. Spend some time thinking before expressing. In fact, somebody needs to explain to me why I shouldn’t be offended by being called a “Kafir”. Thanks in advance. I asked about the origins on Muslims on North American soil out of interest. You answered, and I’ll check it out. It may be interesting. I honestly thought the Vikings were the first, but we’ll check it out. |
| Re: War: Guidelines for American Muslim Leaders |
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| Dude |
| 03/24/03 at 17:22:28 |
| I read the article(s). The piece on Muslim history in NA is interesting, but far from actual historical evidence. I'd be interested in learning more...where they travelled from, how they travelled, and why. Were they aware that the Earth was round, or under the impression it was flat? Stuff like that. The "Kafir" definition is still degrading. Have a careful read. Ignorance can be interpreted by many people in many different ways. Besides, I haven't discounted the existance of God. |
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| amatullah |
| 03/24/03 at 19:31:37 |
| [quote] Get off your high horse[/quote] There you go again! [quote] Explain to me, how my questioning the use of the word “Kafir”, can be considered racist, or even prejudice in any way? I’m merely expressing how I feel about being referred to as a “Kafir”. I think it is degrading. How am I being racist in this instance? Maybe you should learn what the word racism means, and what it means to be racist, before you throw the word around so carelessly. Such an easy way out, isn’t it? Call someone a racist, and hopefully they’ll go and hide, and never come back. Not likely. Spend some time thinking before expressing. [/quote] Where did I call you a racist or anything like that? Please re-read. Once you know what i was saying, then you can begin to perhaps ask others here and discuss proof why Islam is from Allah and a perfect and complete way of life? why evade the main points and keep arguing about the little side things? [quote] In fact, somebody needs to explain to me why I shouldn’t be offended by being called a “Kafir”. Thanks in advance [/quote] Can we keep everything about "kafir" in the thread in Naseeha please. |
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| Dude |
| 03/24/03 at 19:43:29 |
| I've re-read, and I take it back. Heat of the moment. Having said that, I am absolutely not out of line. Out of who's line? Yours? Do you set the line? Who sets the line for non-Muslims whom think that word is not acceptable? You again? Yes, we can keep that sick word over there. Why do you think I started that thread? I await your reply with baited breath in the Naseeha thread. |
| 03/24/03 at 19:46:34 |
| Dude |
| Re: War: Guidelines for American Muslim Leaders |
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| amatullah |
| 03/24/03 at 19:53:25 |
| I think it is normal and very average expectations that if you are here to respect us by not insulting our religion. And we on the other hand will be more than happy to answer all your inquiries. if you are earnestly learning that is fine. but to be antagonistic or to paint islam in ugly colors and expect us to sit and defend or to even chane or apologise for our religion or a word that God chose, i find is a BIG waste of time and is out of line considering even western ettiquite. n'est pas? |
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| Dude |
| 03/24/03 at 20:16:21 |
| Why do I keep replying to you? I'm wound-up, that's why. I asked a simple question about a word, you attacked me for it, that's about how it went. Let's just spare everyone else the pain here of our spitting contest and continue it in the other thread. I'm 100% game, if you are. |
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| amatullah |
| 03/24/03 at 21:01:26 |
| [quote] Why do I keep replying to you? I'm wound-up, that's why. I asked a simple question about a word, you attacked me for it, that's about how it went. [/quote] Perhaps it's not the best time to reply when you are wound-up dude. I mean you've already misunderstood me and you keep missing the point and only focusing on how you [i] feel[/i]. I am sorry if you feel i attacked you. I didn't mean to, if I did. When people make mistakes in my rights I usually forgive. When I feel you transgress something with Allah, then it usually when I will say something. [quote] Let's just spare everyone else the pain here of our spitting contest and continue it in the other thread. I'm 100% game, if you are. [/quote] This is really immature. I am not "game" and this is not a spitting contest. You still seem to avoid the most important point (in my humble opinion) in whether or not the word is slang or not, or right or not. Whether Allah's words are true or not is the bigger picture. Why not start asking (not accusatory and antagonistic) questions that might lead you in a strong belief one way or the other? I am considering not replying to you, if you keep writing in such emotional state that misunderstands me because I don't think it is productive. |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/24/03 at 21:22:43 |
| [slm] Yes, there shouldn't be any immature posts here, name calling or insults. If someone is offended by something message me or Jannah about the situation and we'll examine the situation, insha'Allah. |
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| panjul |
| 03/25/03 at 13:22:48 |
| [slm] Who called who a Kaffir? Kaffir means someone who does not believe in islam. |
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| Dude |
| 03/25/03 at 13:32:49 |
| Amatullah, Again, I can't believe I keep replying to you. Yes, you wind me up. Your posts are condescending. You may not choose to believe that, but they are. I would be happy to spend the day putting together a bunch of examples, but I’m not about to bore everyone here with them. Spitting contest= slang for argument= debate. I.e.: Let's continue this debate elsewhere. Just a saying, that's all. I'm game if you are= I'm up to continuing the discussion elsewhere, if you are. I've replied to you over there, and I'm prepared to let this rest so the others can get back on topic... Which was what again? ::) |
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