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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| It's Wrong to Kill Journalists |
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| panjul |
| 03/22/03 at 22:24:16 |
| An apparent car bomb killed an Australian cameraman and at least four other people Saturday at a checkpoint near a camp of a militant group linked to al Qaeda. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/22/iraq/main545339.shtml |
| Re: It's Wrong to Kill Journalists |
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| deke |
| 03/23/03 at 18:53:46 |
| terrorist dont care who they kill................heck he probably got paid by saddams regime, they did place a bounties on the visitors. |
| Re: It's Wrong to Kill Journalists |
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| jannah |
| 03/23/03 at 21:35:02 |
| "visitors" ? They placed bounties on soldiers and pilots. Not on "visitors" as far as the report I heard on the radio goes. This is war. It's interesting how when the US kills people it's portrayed as an act of war that can't be helped. "They shouldn't be there anyway. It's Saddam's fault anyway". Yet for anyone killed or captured by Iraq, all of the sudden there's a call to the Geneva Convention?? Which the US by the way has consistently broken over the past years. It's all hypocrisy. |
| Re: It's Wrong to Kill Journalists |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/23/03 at 21:46:49 |
| [slm] What about all the Geneva Convetion violations the US did to Afghani POWs at Guantanomo Bay? See the Human Rights Watch website. http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/01/us011102.htm Yes, the US is guilty of so many Geneva Convetion violations. Look at this quote: "The Secretary (Rumsfield) seems unaware of the requirements of international humanitarian law. As a party to the Geneva Conventions, the United States is required to treat every detained combatant humanely, including unlawful combatants. The United States may not pick and choose among them to decide who is entitled to decent treatment." Jamie Fellner Director of Human Rights Watch´s U.S. Program ;================================= Deke, what religion do you follow? Or you don't adhere to any specific one, and have you studied Islam? |
| 03/23/03 at 22:10:47 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: It's Wrong to Kill Journalists |
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| deke |
| 03/23/03 at 22:41:47 |
| Deke, what religion do you follow? Or you don't adhere to any specific one, and have you studied Islam? i follow no religon no i havent studied islam |
| Re: It's Wrong to Kill Journalists |
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| deke |
| 03/23/03 at 22:48:29 |
| They placed bounties on soldiers and pilots. Not on "visitors" as far as the report I heard on the radio goes. This is war. It's interesting how when the US kills people it's portrayed as an act of war that can't be helped. "They shouldn't be there anyway. It's Saddam's fault anyway". Yet for anyone killed or captured by Iraq, all of the sudden there's a call to the Geneva Convention?? Which the US by the way has consistently broken over the past years jannah do you think thats they will adhere to just military personal only,and they remind the iraqi military of the geneva convention so they just might think before they violate it. And when did the americans violate it?? |
| Re: It's Wrong to Kill Journalists |
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| panjul |
| 03/24/03 at 00:05:51 |
| I guess as a budding journalist, (hopefully :) ), i get very angry when journalists are targeted. he probably got paid by saddams regime, they did place a bounties on the visitors. How do you know? You had a dream??? Deke let's make judgements and opinions based on *knowledge*. You know how there's a difference between the facts and opinions? Well, there are different kinds of opinions too, there are opinions based on logic and knowledge, then there are those that pop into our heads out of nowhere.... And when did the americans violate it?? Someone just pointed out that Human Rights Watch, a U.S. human rights group (not run by Muslims if that will make a difference!) said that the U.S. has violated the Genevat Convention many times! And Human Rights Watch isn't the only one, there are other who had documented the same. it's interesting (hypocritical!) that Fox news showed images of Iraqi POWS captured in recent days, their faces and all, and then they quickly pulled the story and pictures from its website after the Bush administration went into an uproar about how violaters will be prosecuted under the Geneva Conventions. Then Fox news had the gall to invite people denouncing this war crimes but made no mention of the Fox's violation. But too bad for Fox news people have documented it and it will surely pop up in the courts after the war. |
| Re: It's Wrong to Kill Journalists |
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| gharib |
| 03/24/03 at 06:24:15 |
| [slm] Let's not forget that 3 british press people have been shot and probabl killed by "Allied" troops near Basra. Journalists are true heros when they try to report as independently as possible (unfortunately very rarely these days) http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=390169 [i]"..... ITN confirmed last night that its correspondent, Terry Lloyd, was missing presumed dead after apparently coming under Allied fire when heading towards the southern Iraqi city of Basra on Saturday. If his death is confirmed, he would be the first correspondent in the field to be killed in ITN's 48-year history. ........ In a statement, the family said: "He died doing a job he loved and we are very proud of him." Two of Mr Lloyd's colleagues, Fred Nerac, a cameraman, and Hussein Othman, a translator, are missing, feared dead. They were fired upon by Allied forces, according to their colleague Daniel Demoustier, a cameraman who escaped with minor injuries. Mr Demoustier said the television team had been attacked after they were approached by a group of Iraqi soldiers who were attempting to surrender. ITN said: "Coalition forces had seen a number of Iraqi 'irregulars' operating in the area. When they saw four vehicles going down a road in the same direction and saw that one of them contained armed Iraqi soldiers, they took this group of vehicles to be a group of irregulars. We assume that is why they opened fire." The Pentagon urged journalists covering the war in Iraq to "exercise restraint" yesterday after the attack on the ITN crew brought the number of reporters killed, injured or missing presumed dead to at least six . ......."[/i] In Kurdistan, a lot of "covert" operations with US special forces are occuring in the Kurd area in the North of Iraq. Two "Islamic" Kurds groups have been heavily bombarded in the North (I guess the future of the "democratic" Kurds does not need those groups, according to the "Allied"). That car bomb occured after that heavy "Allied" bombardment of Kurds opposed to Saddam but not "in tune" with the present strategy. In war there is very little "real" information. News is so controlled that you have to use a lot of different "sources" before being able to glimpse some of the "truth". Let's pray that Allah (God) spares the innocents and have mercy on the oppressed in this adventure. |
| 03/24/03 at 06:25:51 |
| gharib |
| Re: It's Wrong to Kill Journalists |
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| jannah |
| 03/24/03 at 14:24:05 |
| In answer to the question: When did the US violate the Geneva Conventions: On POW's taken by the US: [code] On January 11, 2002, the United States announced that it was refusing to abide by the 1949 Geneva Convention on the treatment of prisoners of war. The Third Geneva Convention, which provides specific guidelines for treatment of prisoner combatants, is a part of the "law of nations" and is a mainstay of international humanitarian law. The United States claimed that the prisoners taken in Afghanistan and Pakistan were not actually prisoners of war, but were in fact "unlawful combatants." The first prisoners arrived in the U.S. base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba on January 11, 2002. According to the Washington Post , prisoners were hooded and shackled during the 27-hour flight. The United States defended these practices as appropriate security measures. Media on site in Cuba reported that the prisoners were fitted with goggles that were blacked out, for "security reasons" necessary to prevent them from using their eyes. In a public letter to Donald Rumsfeld , Amnesty International expressed concern that the prisoners' conditions of transport violated international norms. The prisoners are being housed in outdoor 6 foot-by-8 foot open-air chain link cages, with concrete floors and wooden roofs, and contain a mat and a plastic bucket. The U.S. demanded that media not show photographs of the prisoners in these conditions, explaining, without apparent irony at the inconsistency, that the photos would deprive the prisoners of their rights under the Geneva Convention. According to a Pentagon spokesperson, any photographs of the prisoners in the United States-imposed conditions would be "humiliating" and "debasing." Several outlets have not complied with the Pentagon's demand. The Bush Administration's refusal to abide by the world's humanitarian laws stands in stark contrast to the justifications advanced for U.S. military actions. On September 20, 2001, in a televised speech, George W. Bush justified the waging of war as necessary to defend the values of "civilization" against "evil": "This is not, however, just America's fight. And what is at stake is not just America's freedom. This is the world's fight. This is civilization's fight." On November 8, 2001, in his prime-time speech to the nation, President Bush declared the bombing of Afghanistan to be "a war to save civilization itself." Article 4 of the Geneva Convention defines the categories of persons who may be considered as "prisoners of war." According to Article 5, "should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal." No competent tribunal has adjudicated this matter. Among the provisions of the Third Geneva Convention regarding humane treatment of prisoners of war, which the U.S. is refusing to apply, are: - Article 13: Humane treatment required; No reprisals allowed - Article 14: Respect for persons and honour; No gender discrimination - Article 16: No discrimination based on race, nationality, religious belief or political opinions - Article 17: No physical or mental torture; No coercion to obtain information; Prisoners who decline to provide information may not be threatened, insulted or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment - Article 18: Clothing, articles of personal use, to remain with prisoners - Article 20: Evacuation or transfer to be under same conditions as afforded Detaining Power - Article 21: Internment in camp allowed; Close confinement prohibited - Article 22: Internment in penitentiaries prohibited; Every guarantee of hygiene and healthfulness required - Article 25: Condition of quarters must be as favorable for POWs as for the forces of the Detaining Power; Accommodations for habits and customs of POWs required; Protection from dampness, adequate heat and lighting required - Article 26: Food must be in sufficient quantity, quality and variety to maintain good health and weight - Article 27: Adequate clothing, underwear and footwear required - Article 28: Canteens must be installed; Fairly priced food, soap, tobacco and ordinary items must be stocked - Articles 29 - 32: Proper hygiene and medical attention, including monthly health inspections, required - Articles 34 - 37: Prisoners must be afforded complete latitude in the exercise of religion, including attendance at services, on condition they comply with disciplinary routine - Article 38: Provisions for physical, intellectual and recreational activities - Article 70: Prisoners must be allowed to write to family, others [/code] Here is also an interesting answer to the debate on whether the Geneva conventions should be revised written previous to this war: [code]There is certainly no need to revise the Geneva Conventions, which I am sure the US would like to abandon at this point. Here is a telling letter to the editor following the 1998 missile attack of Clinton on Afghanistan and Sudan with the same justification being given us today (retaliate against terrorists and those who harbor them) addressing exactly the same issue: No state has the right to exact retribution through an armed attack on another country. . . . Nor does any state have the right to launch missiles against a country it believes to harbor terrorists . . . President Clinton's bald assertion that the U.S. bombing was justifiable because the Sudan and Afghanistan have consistently failed to heed U.S. demands to eject Osama bin Laden and others is extraordinary. . . . The real victim [of the missile attacks] was a world in which rules matter and those responsible for acts of violence are brought to justice, not simply killed. (James C. Hathaway, Prof. of International Law, U. of Michigan, NY Times, 8/23/98, p. A14) Most US citizens know little of US law, less of international law, and almost nothing of human rights or Geneva Convention rules. This allows the government to dupe them into agreeing to follow whatever they can be stirred up to support without questioning it. The US violates the laws of war in every modern conflict it takes part in, and then claims other governments don't follow them because they are "evil". The US also justifies not calling the captives POW's because then they "cannot be interrogated". In fact, no one can be forced to answer interrogations no matter what their status is, combatant, non-combatant, criminal, or so-called "unlawful combatant". That didn't stop the US troops from torturing Vietnamese captives or throwing the less cooperative of them from helicopters to convince the others. The complete isolation of these captives must give us pause and raise concerns about their treatment, and Canadians are right to refuse to be part of violations of international laws they have always tried to protect. Bush keeps claiming that the terrorists attacked the US because they hate our way of life, our pluralism, our resources, and our democratic traditions. Does anyone wonder why Canada is not a target then? In Pittsburgh today, Bush stated again his theme that one must either be "for us or against us", and then claimed that all those who want their children and grandchildren to live in a peaceful world will be for his policies. If you want peace, in other words, you have to be for war. The slogans of the Ministry of Truth in Orwell's 1984 came to mind: IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY History, law, conduct of war, evil and good, justice, all will be rewritten by the warfare state. The meanings of critical concepts will be reversed and twisted until there is no way to express another point of view. The language of the government diatribe becomes less and less nuanced, as if a twelve-year-old were talking to us about a video war game. The problem is not that the emperor has no clothes, it is that he has no brain. But who will have the nerve to say so? [/code] Oh and in a little coinkydink today bout half an hour ago Ari was asked in a press conference by Helen (Washington Post lady) if the US was abiding by the Geneva Conventions since it accuses Iraq of war crimes and the guy actually hedged!!!!!!!!!!! He said This is a war situation and we are following humane treatment of people. (ie He never said Yes or said anything about the Geneva Conventions in his statements) And then when she pushed him specifically about the Geneva Conventions and the Guantanamo Bay prisoners he refused to answer and went on to another question...! |
| 03/24/03 at 14:31:40 |
| jannah |
| Re: It's Wrong to Kill Journalists |
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| humble_muslim |
| 03/24/03 at 16:13:54 |
| AA Excuse me, but the USA went against the UN in starting this war. So it sound sjust a teensy weensy bit hyopcritcial to start talking about international conventions when the USA has stuck the middle finger up to the UN. |
| NS |
| Re: It's Wrong to Kill Journalists |
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| BroHanif |
| 03/24/03 at 18:28:46 |
| Salaams, I don't know why as Muslims we can not say stuff your Geneva Conventions, we will apply all prisoners of war under Islamic conventions, they are more humane and perfect. The abuse by the US and other states clearly shows that in this world the true bullies seem to think this world is for them, they apply and withdraw from law when they see fit. The only solution is Islam. salaams Hanif |
| NS |
| Re: It's Wrong to Kill Journalists |
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| humble_muslim |
| 03/24/03 at 19:10:16 |
| AA Good point Hanif, but I think the issue here is of the USA playing cry-baby when it comes to their soldiers and comparing that with the attitude the USA has towards the rest of the world. And if you look at the way the Prohphet (SAW) treated his POWs, you can see Hanif's point. I just got this hadith this afternoon : A prisoner of war without a shirt was brought to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). The Prophet looked for a shirt to give him. It was discovered that the shirt of one of the Prophet's companions would fit the prisoner, so the Prophet let him wear it. The Prophet then took off his own shirt and gave it to his companion [to replace the one given tothe prisoner]. Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Hadith 252 Allahu Akbar, 'Nuff said. |
| NS |
| Re: It's Wrong to Kill Journalists |
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| Halima |
| 03/25/03 at 04:47:47 |
| Following all threads on this board on the war, I am continuously amazed by the following: 1) That the non-Muslims on this board know the Muslims on this board and beyond acknowledge that Saddam was a tyrant and yet this does not satisfy them. Hence they continue to hammer on his past atrocities which the American Government supported in totality because of its interest in Iraq at the time being different from what it is now. 2) That non-Muslims have can not acknowledge or deliberately fail to see that the American Government is committing the same atrocities on a larger scale on the people that Saddam had. Only now, America is killing and destroying a whole nation whereas Saddam was killing selectively. 3) That non-Muslims are equivocably saying that America and its puppet coalition have the right to trample on the UN Charter, the UN Conventions and International Laws while the rest to the world should not dare so. 4) That while debating is healthy and exciting, the Muslims are wasting their time and energy on people like Deke who is not able to look at a coin on both sides despite the fact that he has been given ample proofs to arguements and referals to back the arguements. As a result, everybody ends going round and round about these issues without any more importance or valuable additions. 5) That all we Muslims on this board and beyond are doing is saying let's pray. Our children are sleeping peacefully in their beds, are going to school without fear, have no idea what being bombarded is like. Yet we have the time to argue with people who are closed minded. We are not helping in anyway the people of Iraq. I suggest we hold our peace. After all, as Muslims, we are part of the coalition that is killing the Iraqis. The Jets are flying from Muslim lands. The Missiles are being launched from Muslim waters. When all said and done, we are committing the greatest atrocity against the people of Iraq. 6) If we have any sense of decency, let us keep quite. We are as guilty as the Americans, the Brits, the Spaniards, the Portuguese, the Australians and any other country that supports this war even without sending their troops. Don't anybody dare tell me that not all Muslim are happy with Muslim lands and waters being used for this unjust war. That is PURE BULLSHIT!!! We are good at hedging and pointing fingers at others and not ourselves. And if any Muslim here disagrees with me, then so be it. The TRUTH IS BITTER anyway. Sadly. Halima |
| Re: It's Wrong to Kill Journalists |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/25/03 at 09:05:36 |
| [quote author=deke link=board=ummah;num=1048389857;start=0#4 date=03/23/03 at 22:41:47]Deke, what religion do you follow? Or you don't adhere to any specific one, and have you studied Islam? i follow no religon no i havent studied islam[/quote] Deke, do you believe in God? Did you used to have a religion, and what was it? Surely you must acknowledge that the whole world and universe was created by someone, it didn't happen randomly and that there are rules for living in this world, just as there are rules and regulations when one drives their car on the road. |
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