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Kafir..what's in a word?

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Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/24/03 at 14:43:54
This will be controversial, but it has been brewing inside me since I first started reading these pages.

Why do Muslims on this board refer to non-Muslims as "Kafirs"?

I asked my wife what this word meant, and she said, "never mind, it's a bad word".

When I pressed her, she said that there wasn't a direct translation, but it would be like me calling another man a "b-a-s-t-a-r-d". I've also heard my Mother-in-law utter it when she's angry with somebody. "Sala Kafir", or something like that (never towards me...she loves me:)).

I've always known the word as one used by the English to describe native South Africans. If you were called a "Kafir Lover", it was about the worst insult you could give to another English white man. Of course, calling a black South African a Kafir is about the most degrading, discusting word one can use.

So of course, I'm insulted by the use of this word towards any non-Muslim...but I'm also looking for a better definition.
03/24/03 at 14:46:12
Dude
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/24/03 at 14:59:31
Looks like I just answered my own question:

[quote]Kaf¡¤fir [ k¨¢ffr ] (plural Kaf¡¤firs) or Kaf¡¤ir [ k¨¢ffr ] (plural Kaf¡¤irs)
noun

1. South Africa taboo term: a taboo term for a black African person ( taboo )


2. offensive term: an offensive term referring to a person who is not a Muslim ( slang )


3. language Xhosa: the Xhosa language ( dated )


[Mid-16th century. From Arabic k¨¡fir unbeliever, infidel.]
[/quote]

I see this word used [i]everywhere[/i] on this site. I've always thought it was insulting, now I know it is more than that. Derogatory, offensive, and disgusting.



Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
jannah
03/24/03 at 15:24:50
Aha

I just asked you this question in the UCC ;)

Well I wanted to bring it up because I think people have misconceptions about it!!!

First  the word kaafir comes from the three letter root K-F-R in arabic. If you look it up in good ole' hans-wehr it says:

[code]kafara i (kafr) to cover hide[/code]

and from what i remember in a class once our imam was saying where it came from, it used to be used in the old days as the same word for like when farmers "cover up"  seeds with dirt..

So in essence a Kaafir - one who does kafara is hiding/covering something.   What is that thing? It is belief in God/Islam

Some interpretations thus say that a kaafir is one who learns and knows about Islam and openly rejects it or works against it.

It also has the meaning of being "ungrateful", so a kaafir is ungrateful (to God or others)

However others say there is no weighted meaning to kaafir it just means "a non muslim", ie if you're not Muslim you're a non-Muslim.

The translation of kaafir as "infidel" has never been in our history and is used mostly by orientalists who try to project the idea that Islam breaks up the world into 'believers' and 'infidels' who should be killed/eradicated whatever messed up claims.

Anyway so what is the Islamic standing of people of other faiths? Well Muslims believe that the message of Islam, found in the Quran is the final and complete message from God. It confirms messages before it from prophets like Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, but unlike previous revelations it has not been changed and is in its final form.

Since followers of other faiths do not recognize Muhammad [saw] as a prophet or the Quran as authentic, they are not in recognition of what Muslims believe is the truth.

There are however verses that talk about the special place of "people of the book" namely jews and christians, who were always given a special place in Muslim society. Muslims are also commanded to safeguard other peoples right of worship and their places of worship, a command that has been historically followed, as evidence by the existence of old churches, synagogues, hindu temples throughout the Muslim world.  Contrary to the common stereotype, Islam was not 'spread by the sword', nor are people forced to convert, a fact that is proved by the existence of nonMuslim populations throughout the Muslim world.

ie Muslims ruled India for 8 centuries yet never forced the population to convert or killed people based upon their faith

about people today using kaafir as an epithet or slur.. i think that's mostly a cultural thing that the word has turned into another word for 'jerk' or something

it has nothing to do with the Quranic or legalistic use of the word.  so if a person uses it, it really has to be understood in what context and use..

PS I see your second post that you added just now as I was writing this and I'm sorry if that's what some people think it means but obviously it isn't and it's not how it should be used either!!!


03/24/03 at 15:29:53
jannah
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/24/03 at 15:33:32
As a non-Muslim, I don't think it should be used at all. It should come up as ***** when somebody posts it, just like b-a-s-t-a-r-d does, and I imagine any other slur.

I see it as the same as a caucasian calling an affrican a "Niger"...or a "Kafir". It's wrong, even if not intended to be.
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
jannah
03/24/03 at 15:44:01
Umm no it's not wrong, you are a nonMuslim or are you a Muslim? I mean I think you can only be one or the other.  If people use it in the wrong way that's their problem, you shouldn't take offense. Just say yeah right I'm not a Muslim so what.........

Using it as an insult is wrong agreed, but why should we validate other people's wrong actions?.

Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/24/03 at 15:49:14
Are you completely out of your mind?

It is wrong. Very wrong. I don't care if you don't see it as insulting to call me a “Kafir”, I'm insulted. It's a degrading word! Look up the term in any dictionary! Heck, even my Muslim mother in law is embarrassed by the word…what does that tell you?

That's like me saying it's not insulting to call an African a "Niger". It doesn't matter what I think, it is derogatory towards Africans.

Frankly, I expected much better of you. You're the first to delete any threads or posts where it is deemed someone is insulted. I'm telling you, and have proved, the word "Kafir" is a derogatory slang.

What part of this do you not get?
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
amatullah
03/24/03 at 15:57:06
Dude,
You are in NO position to say the word Kafir is like the use of the N word.
First of all one was coined as an insult by some person. the other is a word to describe non-muslims by God Himself.

I mentioned this in the last ummah thread and I added this link:
you can read the first page here to help understand better if you like:

http://www.masmn.org/Books/Abul_Ala_Mawdudi/Towards_Understanding_Islam/ 002.htm

[quote] Frankly, I expected much better of you. You're the first to delete any threads or posts where it is deemed someone is insulted. I'm telling you, and have proved, the word "Kafir" is a derogatory slang. [/quote]
It is not slang it is word from Allah.  Why should you feel insulted? you are a non-muslim and in the Arabic language that is what they are called. So if a Christian calls me a monotheist instead of Muwahidda I should be insulted? that makes no sense.

My answer would be much the same as the one i gave you there too. Stop feeling sorry for yourself, and trying to paint Islam in ugly colors. If you don't see the Truth that is your problem. It doesn't take away from Allah a thing.
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Mohja
03/24/03 at 16:13:44
This thread reminded me of an incident that happened when i first went to Egypt.  The word "mayya" in somali means no while in egyptian it is slang for water. People would offer us water whenever we went into a grocery store or a restaurant because they'd overhear us saying mayya and assume we needed water. It was really funny!

Now what should be done in this case dude? change either somali  or egyptain language because another language had the same word meaning a different thing?

The same applies to the word kaffir. If somebody rejects islam then he is a non-muslim i.e a kafir in arabic. If the connotation of that word in a particular culture or another language is bad it's not the fault of arabic is it?
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/24/03 at 16:25:19
Hey, I just used the "N" word to bring a bit of light to the situation. I hate the word. I think it's sick. I equate "Kafir" with it.

More deffinitions I've looked up:

[quote]Kaf·fir also Kaf·ir    (k f  r)
n. pl. Kaffir or Kaf·firs also Kafir or Kaf·irs
1.      Offensive.
a.      A Xhosa.
b.      often kaffir Used especially in southern Africa as a disparaging term for a Black person.
2.      Kafir A Nuristani.
3.      also kaffir Islam. An infidel.

Kafir
n 1: (South Africa) an offensive term for any Black African [syn: kaffir, caffer, caffre] 2: a member of the Kafir people in NE Afghanistan [syn: Kafir]

Kaf·ir
NOUN:      Inflected forms: pl. Kaffir or Kaf·firs also Kafir or Kaf·irs1. Offensive a. A Xhosa. b. often kaffir Used especially in southern Africa as a disparaging term for a Black person. 2. Kafir A Nuristani. 3. also kaffir Islam An infidel.

Main Entry: Kaf·fir  
Variant(s): or Kaf·ir  /'ka-f&r/
Function: noun
Etymology: Arabic kAfir infidel
Date: 1778
1 archaic : a member of a group of southern African Bantu-speaking peoples
2 often not capitalized, chiefly South African, usually disparaging : a black African
[/quote]

How can you justify the use of that word because you think God used it? That's completely nuts, and even more insulting.

If you can't tell, I'm shocked that I'm getting this type of response. I would have thought any well-educated, open-minded Muslim would see the sense, and the irony of using an offensive slang to describe non-Muslims. My understanding of Islam is that Muslims are supposed to be tolerant, respectful, and accepting of non-Muslims. How can you be considered to be respectful to someone if you refer to him or her in a derogatory fashion like this?

I can't believe you all don't see anything wrong with that word. Two words: Sock-ing.
03/24/03 at 16:29:43
Dude
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/24/03 at 16:28:09
Mohja,

[quote]The same applies to the word kaffir. If somebody rejects islam then he is a non-muslim i.e a kafir in arabic. If the connotation of that word in a particular culture or another language is bad it's not the fault of arabic is it? [/quote]

What I'm suggesting is you look a little beyond yourself, and try and understand that your use of that word is extremely derogatory, and insulting.

Can you seriously not understand that? You're being disrespectful in using it.
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
deenb4dunya
03/24/03 at 16:51:47
Peace Be Upon You Br.Dude;

I too like Sis Jannah have been taught that the kaafir is the one who hides/ conceals a universal truth- that God exists and that Islam is the truth.

So when I, or any other Muslim (on this board or otherwise) use this word, the intended connotation is as mentioned above. To be honest with you, until very recently I had not been aware of any other usage of this word, and until you posted some more of its definitions, I had not heard some of these usages.

What you need to understand however is the context and the connotation that we intend when we use this word...and for that reason rest assured that it is in no way [i]meant[/i] as an insult. It is not meant to be derogratory, offensive, and I don't mean to be disrecptful in using it.. and I'm sure you would agree that the original meaning of the word has nothing wrong with it. I'm really sorry to hear of all the new derogatory and insulting additional definitions that have been added to the word- but that is not the intent.. so please don't be offended  :)

And Allah knows best.

Deen :-)
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/24/03 at 17:02:16
Deen,

Thanks for your response.

In another thread I was called a racist for even questioning the use of the word. Go figure...I question it's use, so therefore, I'm a racist.::) Nice turn-around jumper, huh?

My point is this...I've always known it to be derogatory. I don't like it. I don't care if it isn't meant to be derogatory, it is to me. That's my point.

People who refer to me as a "Kafir" may not mean to be insulting, but they are.

Get my point?
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
deenb4dunya
03/24/03 at 17:24:42
Br.Dude;

I understand your point, but you still don't seem to understand mine.

Based on the definitions you posted.. I agree that the [i]current[/i] use of the word kaafir is indeed offensive... but however you need to understand that we Muslims use it to mean... I repeat...

the kaafir is the one who hides/ conceals a universal truth- that God exists and that Islam is the truth.

Do u find this offensive?

If yes... I apologize but this is the Qur'anic definition...

If no... that's great... because that is all the word is meant to be.

SO please, when you hear (or should I say read) this word on the board.. rest assured that this is ALL that is intended. This is all people mean to say... so don't be offended.

However, if someone means by this word otherwise... I understand your anger...

Let's try to reach a middle ground...

If you still don't agree/ believe that this is all that is intended, I'd understand that because if you haven't studied the Qur'aan/ sunnah (tradition of the Messenger of Allah, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and seen the context in which it is repeated...you might have a different understanding of the word.

HOWEVER; all I'm asking is that you assume the best when the brothers and sisters use the word on this board, and that you do not become angry/ offended.

And Allaah knows best : )

Your sister;
Deen




Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/24/03 at 17:29:52
I've actually held back whenever coming across it for that reason- it's not meant to be insulting.

That said, now that I actually post on the topic, I get attacked, and called a racist for my troubles. How is that fair? How does one make that leap? All that shows me is that the person calling me a racist is cowardly, and maybe even embarrassed by the other uses of that word.

The fact is, the word should not be used if it is insulting to the recipient. I find it degrading.  
03/24/03 at 17:31:47
Dude
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
deenb4dunya
03/24/03 at 17:33:35
There is still more dialogue to be done... inshallah I will reply later.

Deen  :-)
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
jannah
03/24/03 at 17:52:41
This reminds me of a true story when I was like 3 in Australia and my brother used to tease me by saying "larki larka larki larka!!!"  which means 'girl boy girl boy girl boy' and I used to scream and cry to my mom. And she'd laugh and say why are you crying he's just saying larki larka!!! lol!!

Anyways, I'm sure you'd feel the same way if someone said "you NON MUSLIM" to you in a deragatory way even if you are a non muslim and probably proud to be a nonmuslim eh.  

So let me put it this way, if someone on the board calls you kaafir in a derogatory way let me know inshaAllah.

Otherwise unfortunately we can't change the Arabic dictionaries and obviously we can't change the Quran that uses the word in a normal fashion.

Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Ameeraana
03/24/03 at 18:28:07
Salaam Aleikum,
 When we Muslims say "kaafir" we are speaking Qur'anic Arabic, not any other language. It is not right for anyone to denounce a Muslim because they are speaking the words of Allah just because in another language the same word may have a different meaning.  

Fi Aman Allah
Ameera
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/24/03 at 18:36:02
I haven't denounced a Muslim, just the use of the word. Read the definitions...they are derogatory.

Very simple.
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
amatullah
03/24/03 at 19:40:39
websters is not the word of God or anything you know. Many times they go back and revise editions.

even simple definitions in the west to explain something as silly as like a hair barret, had to go and get changed to something gender-neutral. How many tries do you think it will take them to get a  spiritual concept right?

So is there now way that their definiton is incomprehensive ?



[quote] My point is this...I've always known it to be derogatory. I don't like it. I don't care if it isn't meant to be derogatory, it is to me. That's my point. [/quote]  
What I suggest is the same advice you give: look a little beyond yourself!
It's not slang and if you feel it is derogatory that's fine. But do not expect Muslims to drop it because of your total misunderstanding of the language of Quran.
03/24/03 at 19:44:27
amatullah
"Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/24/03 at 20:02:53
Are you telling me that "Kafir" does not mean infidel? You (I think) alluded to the fact somewhere that "heathen" isn't the best word to describe non-Christians...what's the difference?

It is a word that, in most circles, is used as a derogatory remark. Heck, even in my own in-laws household, it is not considered a complimentary word. They, devout Muslims, only whisper it, or utter it under their breath as a swear. I see it as a completely disrespectful word.

I'm not surprised you refuse to acknowledge that, since you seem to disrespect anyone who doesn't profess to be Muslim. Yes, I'm insulted by that word, and others here have acknowledged that they can see why I'm insulted by it...yet you cannot.

I can see where the Arabic root came from, but that doesn’t mean it is a complementary description towards non-Muslims. Besides, what does it matter what a Muslim thinks? The Muslim is not the person being called a “Kafir”. A “Kafir”, in most societies, is a disgusting word.

Here's a thought: perhaps you should look within yourself to find out why you can't be more respectful of non-Muslims. Quite the quandary...you want to be a good Muslim person, yet you are disrespectful of others beliefs. That puts you in a pretty tough situation, doesn’t it?



03/24/03 at 20:04:42
Dude
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
bhaloo
03/24/03 at 20:34:42
[slm]

Here is the standard response that I use now when this topic is brought up.

Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem.

Dear Brothers & Sisters,

Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah.

I have only skimmed the thread, so if I miss any points out, or tread over already well-covered ground, please forgive me.

Before proceeding, we might do well to chew over the following wise words:

Shaykh Adhami mentions, "The "best awareness [ma'rifa] is for a man to have self-awareness. And the best knowledge ['ilm] is for a man to stop at the limit of his knowledge.""

He also related, "In this regard, on the authority of az-Zuhri (124AH), the guidance of our beloved Messenger (Peace Be Upon Him ) helps to remind us to "speak about that which you have knowledge of. [And to] relegate that which you are ignorant about to the one who knows of it.""

Some time ago, elsewhere, I was involved in a similar discussion, so I have collated some of what I wrote from that, and insha’Allah I hope it proves beneficial. I will list some of the contentions that were raised in that discussion, as I am sure some of the same misconceptions have been aired here too.

1. It had been said in the discussion I was involved in that, “A person is not a kafeer until we do dawah to him and he deliberately and knowingly rejects Islam. Allah knows best.” This was wrong, and will be explained below if Allah ta’ala grants our endeavour tawfeeq, for which we pray earnestly.

2. It had been said that there is a limbo state between being Muslim and non-Muslim, which is different from being a kaffir. The person who claimed this considered there to be a difference between a kaffir and a non-Muslim; in that the forner are those who have *rejected* Islam (a position which pre-supposes familiarity with the truth of Islam), and the latter are those who are not Muslims either due to ignorance, or misonceptions. This too is an unrecognised classification amongst the Ulema, which again we shall examine further below. Indeed I had asked one of the Brother’s who was a proponent of this view about the issue of a Sister marrying such a person. He chose not to answer, which itself was answer enough, because it highlighted the unavoidable problems which arise from holding onto such an incorrect viewpoint, namely: contradictions.

3. There was some confusion due to the fact that kaffir is often translated as *disbeliever*, a term which again suggests rejection, and thus seems not to account for those who are kuffar out of ignorance/misconception of Islam. Possibly a more fitting translation is *unbeliever* for this is more of a comment on *not believing* as opposed to the reason for not doing so. And essentially *this* is the crux of the matter, as we shall see, bi’ithnillah ta’ala.

4. Some were uncomfortable with the usage of the term kaffir, as they mistakenly thought it implied a judgement about that person’s akhira [hereafter]. Yes and no. In *general* if the state of kufr of the kaffir, and the reason for it, is one that does not admit of any possible excuse, then the jurists consider that the final abode is the hellfire, and this is not some controversial matter, except to the unlearned like myself. However, if the reasons for unbelief are excusable (e.g. the message never reaching the person, living in a time/location between revelation, etc.) then the matter is left to Allah ta’ala. This is why we should never point the finger to some non-Muslim and say with surety that they *will* be in the hellfire, for you cannot know whether iman will enter their heart even in the last few moments of life. So care and caution is required. However, the question of the hereafter for kuffar is not the subject of this thread, but I only raised it because the two seem to often go hand in hand, and some of us seem to erroneously overlap both questions, which accounts for why there are certain misnotions floating about.

The word *kaffir* is not - as some Muslims today (maybe not anyone here) seem to think - a derogatory word, in the way, for example *paki* or *gora* might be. Rather, kaffir is simply an adjective used to describe one who is not Muslim. There is no controversy about this. Whosoever is not Muslim is kaffir. It refers to their aqeedah [belief]. The fact that the risala [message] has not reached them, or has reached them in a distorted fashion, is irrelevant. As is whether they have never even considered Islam, or if they reject it knowing it to be the haqq [truth]. There is no disagreement *at all* upon the above assertion of application amongst the Classical Ulema, wallahu ta’ala a’lam, and this is for sure the orthodox position, the evidence for which shall be adduced below, on authority.

Both unbelief and disbelief still qualify one as being kaffir. Nor is it so that a deliberate rejection pre-supposes cognisance of what the truth is - or what the Islamic faith is (which, essentially, is the same thing) - followed by rejection. This is not a pre-condition for being a kaffir. Wallahu ta'ala a'lam

Note, what is *not* being disputed is that there are people who are non-believer's in the sense that they have not rejected but merely don't believe. All that is being said is that nonetheless, from their aqeedah, they are kuffar. Would we not agree that any aqeedah other than the aqeedah of Islam (i.e. Iman) is kufr? So what has this to do with *why* someone has such an aqeedah? It is a separate issue.

The issue is *what do you dis/believe,* NOT the reason for that disbelief, or the cause of it.

The kaffir is the one who does not possess iman (i.e. the articles of faith).

The issue of their status in the akhira is a different question, and Imam Ghazali (ra) for instance did not stop at just saying that they may escape punishment if the da'wah did not reach them, but more, that even if they came into contact with Islam, but it was in a misrepresentative way then they would be excused. Wallahu ta'ala a'lam.

Nonetheless, for them to be considered kuffar is unrelated to them receiving da'wah and then rejecting whilst knowing it to be the haqq. Rather it merely reflects the reality of their aqeedah being antithetical to the Islamic aqeedah. The classification of kaffir stems from the *constituents* of their aqeedah, not the *reasons* for it, wallahu a'lam. This point cannot be stressed enough, and if we but understood it, then perhaps the contentions raised here might finally be allowed to lay to rest.

We live in times where some of us are even confused as to whether the Ahl al-Kitab are considered kuffar or not, since we think that because they are referred to by this title they are obviously not kuffar. They are.

The categorisation of kaffir is descriptive, not derogatory. We don't go by colloquial vernacular, we go by shari'i mustahalaat [nomenclature].

I quote you what Sheikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller mentioned about this:

"As for today, only Islam is valid or acceptable now that Allah has sent it to all men, for the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) has said,

"By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, any person of this Community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell" (al-Baghawi: Sharh al-sunna 1.104).

This hadith was also reported by Muslim in his Sahih by `Abd al-Razzaq in his Musannaf, and others. It is a rigorously authenticated (sahih) evidence that clarifies the word of Allah in surat Al 'Imran:

"Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam will never have it accepted from him, and shall be of those who have truly failed in the next life" (Koran 3:85)

and many other verses and hadiths. That Islam is the only remaining valid or acceptable religion is necessarily known as part of our religion, and to believe anything other than this is unbelief (kufr) that places a person outside of Islam, as Imam Nawawi notes:

"Someone who does not believe that whoever follows another religion besides Islam is an unbeliever (like Christians), or doubts that such a person is an unbeliever, or considers their sect to be valid, is himself an unbeliever (kafir) even if he manifests Islam and believes in it" (Rawda al-talibin, 10.70).

This is not only the position of the Shafi'i school of jurisprudence represented by Nawawi, but is also the recorded position of all three other Sunni schools: Hanafi (Ibn 'Abidin: Radd al-muhtar 3.287), Maliki (al-Dardir: al-Sharh al-saghir, 4.435), and Hanbali (al-Bahuti: Kashshaf al-qina', 6.170). Those who know fiqh literature will note that each of these works is the foremost fatwa resource in its school. The scholars of Sacred Law are unanimous about the abrogation of all other religions by Islam because it is the position of Islam itself. It only remains for the sincere Muslim to submit to..."

So insha’Allah ta’ala the matter is clear now, like when something comes into focus.

Kaffir literally means *one who conceals,* and also, in classical arabic kuffar is the words for farmers, which is a usage employed in Al-Qur'an Al-Kareem. However, what we seek is not the lughawi [linguistic] meaning, but the shari'i one.  

The next point is very important, for we see it transgressed all too often. And it is unbecoming.

Our behaviour is unaffected by the orthodox classification into Muslim vs kaffir. For whether one is kaffir by rejection, or ignorance, our attitide is STILL determined towards them by the Shar'iah. That some of us think that the shari'i [legal] classification of them as kuffar, even if they have never been exposed to Islam, is derogatory, is more about us than the Shar'iah. It is a shortcoming we need to redress, in the same way that some of us recoil when a homosexual non-Muslim "friend" asks us what the punishment for homosexuality is in Islam. We become backfooted and apologetic because we don't want our answer to push them away from Islam.

Likewise, Islam is Islam, it has been so for long before we came on the scene, and our stance towards it (e.g. if we are unsettled by certain fiqh positions, or if we have trouble accepting particular aspects of the aqeedah [belief]; and I am not suggesting that anyone does) does not alter the Islamic position. Unlike Al-Fatiha (the Muslim Gay Rights Movement), we are not revisionists. If we find ourselves troubled, then we first suspect ourselves, and we realise that it is never that Islam is “wrong”, but that we have missed something somewhere along the line. We don’t seek to re-interpret the wahy [revelation] to suit our whims, desires, inclinations and shortcomings.

May Allah ta’ala ennoble each and every one of you, keep you safe and protected always, enlighten your faces with the radiance of knowledge, and continue to instill in you the ardent desire to always seek the best fahm [understanding] of this exalted Deen.

I ask Allah ta’ala to forgive me my many excesses. I admit that any mistakes were of my own unlearned doing, and ask that He (awj) deals with me by His (awj) Rahma [Mercy] as opposed to His (awj) Justice,

Abu Khaled
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
amatullah
03/24/03 at 20:53:13
First of all, I want to set the record straight about hte other thread. NO one called you a racist. You misunderstood.

[quote]  Are you telling me that "Kafir" does not mean infidel? [/quote]
I know for a fact what Kafir is. My english is not as good to know for sure what infidel exactly refers to.

[quote]  You (I think) alluded to the fact somewhere that "heathen" isn't the best word to describe non-Christians...what's the difference?  [/quote]
wasn't me and have no idea what you're talking about.


[quote]  I'm not surprised you refuse to acknowledge that, since you seem to disrespect anyone who doesn't profess to be Muslim. [/quote]
Can you proove that statement please using at everyone else who isn't a Muslim's (on the board/ or off) experience?You are making huge assumptions here.  Maybe it's just a reaction to your disrespect?

[quote] Yes, I'm insulted by that word, and others here have acknowledged that they can see why I'm insulted by it...yet you cannot. [/quote]
You're entitled to your opinion, and me to mine. Just because I don't agree with YOU doesn't mean everyone else here agrees with you and no one agrees with me.  That statement was quite drama.


[quote]  Here's a thought: perhaps you should look within yourself to find out why you can't be more respectful of non-Muslims.[/quote]
Let's get one thing straight. YOU are not all non-Muslims ok? and also YOU are in NO position to say I am not respectful of non-Muslims. As is a plain out lie.

[quote]  Quite the quandary...you want to be a good Muslim person, yet you are disrespectful of others beliefs. That puts you in a pretty tough situation, doesn’t it?[/quote]
Once again...YOUR opinion is not "others beliefs". You make it sound like you make up a whole religion or movement or something by yourself! I stand by what I said, the word is NOT slang, it is a word Allah chose to describe a non-Muslim. I am far from being a good Muslim, I try to learn as I go. I don't think you know me at all to say I disrespect others beliefs. I disagree with you on something. that's all. No need to get so .... wound up?!
03/24/03 at 20:54:50
amatullah
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
se7en
03/24/03 at 23:11:25
as salaamu alaykum / peace,


It's interesting that in some Arab countries you find the use of the word 'abd or 'abeed [slave] in reference to blacks.  (Amazing how far we have come from the teachings of the Prophet [saw], who taught that 'an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab, nor a non-Arab over an Arab; a white has no superiority over a black nor a black over white; except by sincerity and good deeds.')

Anyway.. I don't think that because some people abuse the word 'abd, it should be banned from the Arabic dictionary.  It's a term that serves a function and meaning in the language, and simply because some misuse it for their own bigoted purpose does not mean it has less value or usefulness.  And it's for this same reason that I believe the word 'kafir' has a legitimate place in Islamic discourse and in Arabic terminology.

You've hit on a *very* interesting point though, Dude.. at the last Islamic Society of North America Conference, there was an awesome lecture entitled "Humanizing the Other".  It addressed the b_stardization of the word "kafir".. how in the true Quranic and Islamic sense, it is simply a word that means 'not Muslim'; but unfortunately, in a lot of our discourse it has come to mean something else.  It has come to be that 'kafir' is a bad word.. that anyone deemed a 'kaffir' is seen as sub-human, unintelligent, inferior, etc.. and this belief has started to manifest itself in our understanding and perception of non-Muslims, and is detrimental not only in our personal interaction with people and effort of da'wah [education] but also on the large scale social and political levels.

However, the scholars did not determine that the solution is to ban the word 'kafir' from our discourse, but to *redefine* it more accurately, according to the original sources of Islam - the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad [saw].

It was an *excellent* lecture, given by noted scholars Dr. Sherman Jackson, Umar Faruq Abdullah, and Hamza Yusuf.  I'd recommend everyone, both Muslim and non, to get yourselves a copy if possible.


wasalaamu alaykum / peace


btw - It's interesting how some Orientalists love to translate kafir as 'infidel', when the word infidel was actually coined during the Crusades to refer to the *Muslims*, who were believed to be without faith.
03/24/03 at 23:32:12
se7en
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
ummfatima02
03/24/03 at 23:13:02
[slm]
 
  I hate to jump in the middle of this, but I just have to reply.

  I can see both points. Dude is obviously looking at it in the Western light.
"Kafir" has always been the media-propagated word that Muslims use when they talk about the 'other' (those not sharing te same belief as Muslims)
 
  But the reality is, that Muslims do have a sort of "you either believe or don't believe" For the Muslim, if you don't say the Kalimah "La Ilaha Il ALlah" you are a disbeliever, especially after you acknowledge that you understand the tenents of Islam.

  I don't feel it is something to be ashamed of. In fact, if you have a Muslim wife, and you are a non-Muslim, she is in a serious violation, and she probably knows it. that is probably why she didn't want to explain the word to you in the first place (at least that's what I assume)

Dude, you must remember, Islam is not an ecumenical movement.We do not have an understanding of "You're ok if you believe in God"
In Islam there is no riding the fence. You are either with us, or you are not.
If you are not, then Allah, The ALmighty told us to tell you this....

 "Say, Oh You Disbelievers (Kaafiruun (kafir pl.))!
   Verily I will not worship what you worship (Surah Al Kafirun Ayah 1-2)

So, for the Muslim, Allah is telling us that the proper name for the one who knows about Islam, yet chooses to continue to deny it, is Kafir. He tells us, in fact, he is ordering us to call you Kaafirs.
 
   No offense, Dude. But There will be no riding the fence in this religion. If I were you, I would acknowledge it, and also acknowledge that You [i][/i] have a Western-media sense mind, in which the equation is:
 
    Kafir (infidel) + Call for Jihad = You can kill the Kafir

 Masalaam,
                Ummfatima
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
kingzdaughter1
03/25/03 at 02:50:04
[quote] It is not slang it is word from Allah.[/quote]

[quote]in the true Quranic and Islamic sense, it is simply a word that means 'not Muslim'; but unfortunately, in a lot of our discourse it has come to mean something else.  It has come to be that 'kafir' is a bad word.. that anyone deemed a 'kaffir' is seen as sub-human, unintelligent, inferior, etc..[/quote]

sisters, you have just said exactly what I wanted to say!!
[] on da house to you, and everyone else who read my mind in this thread!
;D
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
BrKhalid
03/25/03 at 06:39:04
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

It has been narrated on the authority of Umar b. al-Khattab that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:

(The value of) an action depends on the intention behind it. A man will be rewarded only for what he intended[Muslim]



Those of you who know me will probably be sick of me quoting this hadith for about a hundredth time but yet the wisdom behind this saying is always there to be seen.


Dude I think you can draw a similar analogy to the use of the alternate word for an illegitimate child in the English language. The same word can be used but depending on the *context* can have two different meanings. One can be a defining word and the other a term of abuse.

And so indeed can the word “Kafir”

Hence given the above hadith, when someone calls you a Kafir, you have to figure out in what context he/she is using the word.


As for the abusive context of the word Kafir on the board, Sr jannah has said:

[quote]So let me put it this way, if someone on the board calls you kaafir in a derogatory way let me know inshaAllah[/quote]

And Article III Clause I of the constitution also includes restrictions on insulting others. If you have an issue by all means raise it with the Administrators.


Of course I do know of a really good way to stop yourself being called a kafir? ;)
03/25/03 at 06:40:13
BrKhalid
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
theOriginal
03/25/03 at 09:19:01
[slm]

I don't know...is it just me, or am I the only one who doesn't think the word has a derogatory connotation at all?  

I mean we use the word to distinguish non-muslims from muslims.  I don't ever use it insultingly.  And I would never use it in front of someone who is not aware of its arabic meaning (i.e. non-muslims).  

And I don't know why, but I always thought the english word "kafir" was something quite separate from the arabic word "kaafir".  But wow! look see!  They are the exact same word!  The stuff I learn on this board.  Amazing.

I guess it's about time I learnt the true meaning of the word in Arabic...because I didn't think it means "infidel"...( I still don't.)

Take care.  
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
lala
03/25/03 at 09:56:05
Since we are speaking of definations and websters:

Main Entry: in·fi·del
Pronunciation: 'in-f&-d&l, -f&-"del
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English infidele, from Middle French, from Late Latin infidelis unbelieving, from Latin, unfaithful, from in- + fidelis faithful -- more at FIDELITY
Date: 15th century
1 : one who is not a Christian or who opposes Christianity
2 a : an unbeliever with respect to a particular religion b : one who acknowledges no religious belief
3 : a disbeliever in something specified or understood
from: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

My two cents:
If one does not believe in islam then they are an infidel-right?  Maybe Kafir has been used to 'loosely' by others and we should take heed in spewing it out in the future. Just like Infidel, Kafir does not have that euphonically pleasant sound that many arabic words have.( well at least to me)

Thats all I have to say on this..thanks for reading..
salaam ::)
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Barr
03/25/03 at 10:54:40
Assalamu'alaikum,

My 2 cents:

Barr's Rule of the thumb #1

Don't call someone by names that he/ she detest.  
If Dude feels offended.. lets not call him kaafir/ kafir. (sorry, I don't remember reading someone calling you a kaafir.. I may have missed the post)

I mean...if a personn doesn't like to be called fat.. don't call him fat.

Barr's Rule of the thumb #2

If a word is not intended to be an insult, and has a totally different definition for someone else...lets forgive and forbear. :)

I mean, we can't possibly change the whole of the Arabic lexicon, when "kaafir" is not meant to be offensive in the first place.

Just as we can't obliterate the word "fat" from the English lexicon. That would have adverse effect on scientific journals and objective discussions :)


Let's move on, people! :)


Allahua'lam
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/25/03 at 11:09:36
I’ve slept on this, and calmed down a little. Brkhalid is always good to help bring some levity and sense to a situation too.

I don’t think I’m looking at this from a “Western” viewpoint. I have done some reading on the South African’s plight, and struggle under segregation. The word “kafir” was used repeatedly by the English is a derogatory term towards the natives.

I sat down with my father-in-law last night, whom I always go to when I have an Islam question, and he’s pretty good at giving me the goods…mainly because he is completely unemotional, and doesn’t get caught up in the politics of the community, or culture.

He explained to me that the original meaning comes fro the religion, to describe one who has not embrased Islam. Fair enough. However, he also explained to me that it isn’t really ever used in a flattering context. He equated the word to “b-a-s-t-a-r-d”. “It would be like you calling someone a basta***”. The way he explained it, it is a word that is spoken either in close confines with another Muslim (in other words, not out loud where others can hear you), where the word is being used to reflect poorly on another…like saying “stupid kafir”.

He wrapped it up by saying, yes, the origin is pure, but it has been turned over the years into a word used to disparage another…like bast***.

I have no reason not to trust what he says. He’s a born Muslim who immigrated here, so he can’t be accused of having a Western viewpoint. He’s still the best example of a Muslim man I have ever met, and an example anyone would follow. He doesn’t use that word to describe anyone, because it is insulting and degrading in many contexts…even if the origins of it were innocent enough. Most importantly, I know he would never use that word to describe me, and he wouldn’t stand for anyone in his house to use that word.

That tells me enough.

To sum it up, I don't like being referred to as a “kafir”, because it has such a negative connotation to it, and isn't used in flattering context. Just like the word bast***. I'd personally appreciate it if anyone who knows better does not refer to me as a "kafir". Thanks.

One more thing:

[quote]If one does not believe in islam then they are an infidel-right?[/quote]

If you're Muslim, you certainly do beleive that, and you have every right to (freedome of choice). Just like a Born Again Christian has a similar beleif.

Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
sofia
03/25/03 at 12:18:46
Sorry if I butt into conversations late, after it's already been beaten to a pulp. My comments really aren't even necessary, but just had a couple things to add.

Dude - Glad you have a sensible father-in-law.

All - I was just having a conversation with some folks on how the term "salafi" is used in a derogatory sense (amongst Muslims, towards other Muslims!) to describe those who pretty much follow the Qur'aan and Sunnah (ie, it's usually said in a negative connotation, although others use it respectfully, but rarely is it a "self-label"). At one point in the conversation, someone had mentioned, "it's kind of like using the term, 'n$%*&!.'"

I've also heard people use the term, "dude," in a derogatory way. Heck, even "sofia."  :)

One thing I can't stomach: How the term "kaafir" is being interpreted as "n$%*&!" or "b^%$#&*"  First, it's inaccurate (where is this definition from? A Guide to Colonialists' Interpretation of Eastern Civilizations? No offense, but sheeeeesh). Second, do we have to believe everything we hear? Are we here to ask to find out or...what?

As already mentioned, if anyone cares to know what the term "kaafir" means in an Islaamic context, and not amongst slang circles (which I'm sure exists, just as the term "n$%*&!" exists, unfortunately. Doesn't mean its roots are from a religion or that it's ok) - the term "kaafir" means to cover up or to deny. The term is often used for an [u]informed[/u] disbeliever, and in most cases, for those who [u]actively strive against[/u] Islaam and/or Muslims. As a side note: one of the terms God uses for mankind is, 'Abd, which means slave.

Pretty deep, if you think about it. If we twist it into something that has to do with race (by Muslims or non-Muslims alike - it's actually worse if a Muslim does this, considering what this deen is really about), rather than belief or disbelief in the One, True God, we've missed the entire purporse for our religion in the first place. Throughout the Qur'aan, God addresses mankind in various ways. Often times, it's: "Ya ayyuhan-Naas," O People/Mankind. Not "O Muslims."

Lastly, wanted to emphasize the need for scholarship in Islaam, and of course I remind myself first since I have a long way to go. Scholarship (particularly in Islaam) is not based solely on knowledge from authentic sources, but also on one's character.

Glad Br.Khalid brought up the point about intentions (again). And as Barr mentioned, if someone is offended by something we say, we should refrain from saying it, unless it's upholding the truth of God and His Prophets. Let's try to remember that this deen is made up of *both* our relationship with God, as well as our relationship with people (Muslim or not). A person who neglects the needs of/is harsh towards people, only serving God, will have a lot to answer for. Just as one who only serves people, and rejects God. True religion is about finding that balance.

It sounds a lot easier said than done, but then, how else do we attain goodness, but through struggle (to learn, to implement, to enjoin good, to forbid evil, etc)?

--------------------

Excerpts from Prophet Muhammad's (S) last sermon:

[color=black]...All mankind is from Adam, and Adam is from dust. An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white - except by piety and good action...

Remember, one day you will meet God and answer for your deeds. So beware: do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me, and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand my words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Qur'an and my Sunnah ["tradition," way of implementing the Qu'raan] and if you follow these you will never go astray.

For all those who listen to me, pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O God, that I have conveyed Your message to Your people." [/color]

----------------------

From the translation of the Qur'aan:

[color=Green]"O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with God is he who has At-Taqwa [i.e. God-consciousness; righteousness]. Verily, God is All-Knowing, All-Aware." [49:13] [/color]
03/25/03 at 15:31:41
sofia
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/25/03 at 13:23:33
To all, then I'm done.

Earlier, I had compared that word to the "N" word, but for good reason: the word "Kafir" has been used for many generations in South Africa, by the English, as a derogatory term to describe the natives. Just like the "N" word has been used as a derogatory word to describe African Americans.

Neither is right, in my opinion. I equate one with the other because, before I had logged on to this board, the only context in which I had ever heard or read the word "Kafir", it was as a derogatory remark. I'm sorry if that shocks you, but it really isn't that uncommon.

Anyhow, that's it.
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
panjul
03/25/03 at 13:40:32
[slm]

I don't get it. I thought Dude you were a Muslim? but you are saying that you are a non-muslim but married to a muslim woman? But muslim women can't marry non-muslim men. but you say your in-laws are devout?

So are you muslim or non-muslim?
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
ummfatima02
03/25/03 at 14:05:56
[slm]

 Panjul, that is what I have been trying to figure out myself! How can he not be westernized if he doesn't have a problem with the western man marrying his daughter?

You can be westernized in the middle east! I mean, come on look at Jordan! :-[ I'm an American born woman and even I agree that Jordan in many of it's cities resemble Greenwich avenue in New York.

I have always believed that people view life as they wish to. Muslim and non-muslim. If Your Father-in -law is as pious and sensible as you say he is, maybe on some Muslim's minds they would see him as a Modernist who practices Islam in the Mosque but the religion has no bearing in his life two steps from where he places he sandals.

  Life is very strange!


May Allah guide you, Dude and all of the believers in this world, those who have accepted Islam, and those who have not heard of Muhummad, yet are maintained on the straight path.

       Masalaam, Ummfatima
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
jannah
03/25/03 at 15:04:02
salam,

Someone just mentioned this to me. I don't think we should be making judgements about dude or his father-in-law or if he is or is not Muslim or how pious/modern someone is in a public forum. So let's please refrain inshaAllah. Maybe if some people would like to get to know Dude and his family etc they can private message him.

Thanx
03/25/03 at 15:06:07
jannah
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
sofia
03/25/03 at 15:09:04
Strange (glad you beat me to it, Jannah).
Let's be careful of our assessment of other people's imaan. Particularly those we haven't even met (ie, Dude's father-in-law).
If we should worry about anyone's imaan, it should be our own.
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
muslimah853
03/25/03 at 15:17:13
[slm]

I really don't understand what the big deal is.

Dude is upset because, if I understand this correctly, Muslims use the word 'kafir'.  This is being equated to the use of the term by white South Africans.

I don't see why--the two have absolutely nothing to do with one another.  Their origins are not the same.  It is merely a coincidence that a word that is a racial slur in one language and context also has a phonetic 'twin' in another language.  It happens.  Human beings can only make a finite set of sounds and as it turns out sometimes words get duplicated from language to language.  There are close to 1000 languages in the world, this is bound to happen.  Sometimes the two words share a common origin, and sometimes not.  A dear friend of mine has a nickname for my youngest daughter, "Pookie".  It is fairly common as a nickname in English--but there is a sister who is Malaysian and she informed us that in her language, the word refers to the female private part.  Yikes.  Do I now believe that the first person is saying something derogatory about my child?  No.  That would be ridiculous.  

Kaffir *is* a racial slur in the South African context.  It is NOT in the Islamic context.  It has totally different meanings, totally different origins.  The two are NOT related.

If someone then uses it as an insult--then that's a problem.  But even so, the insult that they intend is an entirely different one from the S. African version.  It's still not nice, but they still have nothing to do with one another.  

Many things can be made into insults.  If I am discussing the French revolution, and make mention of the "bourgeoisie"--it is fine.  But that same word can be turned into a stinging insult.  So, what do we do about that--refuse to use the term in history classes?  Or how about boycotting Nabisco for making Oreo cookies because the term 'oreo' can be used as an insult (sellout, or alternately, as a derogatory term for a biracial person)?  Most people would agree that this is ridiculous.  And this is in the same language.  But here we are being castigated for using a word that bears no relationship whatsoever to a racial slur from another language?  I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me.  And I am someone who would be considered a 'kaffir' if I lived in South Africa.
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
muslimah853
03/25/03 at 15:28:02
One other thing.

I do know that there are Muslims who use the term as an insult--and that has always bothered me.  However, Dude, I think that your father-in-law's statement that it is *always* used as an insult only reflects his own personal experience.  Ip should be taken as such.  That's what he has seen, but it doesn't necessarily mean that this is the reality of the entire 1 billion people who are Muslims.

Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/25/03 at 15:35:29
Thanks for the back up.

Let’s just say it took a long time for my father in law to come around and accept a Westerner (not to mention a white Westerner) into his family.

Read up on my past posts, if you like, and you'll see the history on the marriage.

As for the respect I have for Islam, it comes through my father in law. If I were to fully convert to any religion, it would be Islam. There are some elements, however, that I can't bring myself to believe, and therefore cannot fully convert and call myself Muslim. I will admit, part of this is cultural. Do I believe in God? Absolutely. I believe in one God. I believe in the Day of Judgment. I also believe I have a responsibility to provide for my family, love my kids, educate them, be their best friend, and protect them. I believe I have a responsibility to treat my wife (and all women) with equal respect- a trait I learned from my mother. I am loyal and faithful to my wife. I'd die for my wife and kids, no questions asked.

I hold the same level of respect for my father and mother in law as I do for my own parents. I'm thankful that both my parents, and my wife's parents gave us their blessings. Abba is old fashioned...he didn't want me hanging around. Suffice to say, I proved to him that I was worth accepting into his family. I must have portrayed enough of the qualities that he'd see in a son-in-law to get him to look beyond his prejudices. I may not be someone who calls himself a Muslim, but I have accepted Islam into my household, and am fully supportive of raising our kids around the faith. I think being raised around a faith is important, and I can't think of better people to help with that than my wife and in-laws.

As for this:

[quote]I have always believed that people view life as they wish to. Muslim and non-muslim. If Your Father-in -law is as pious and sensible as you say he is, maybe on some Muslim's minds they would see him as a Modernist who practices Islam in the Mosque but the religion has no bearing in his life two steps from where he places he sandals.[/quote]

All I can say is that it is people like you that he, thankfully, ignores when people start whispering "gohra" at Muslim community functions. I'm sure you're righteous, are perfect in your conduct, and have no sins...so you have no worries.

And thank you, for helping me prove a point...as unexpected as it was.

To the rest: sorry for the rant. I feel much better now, though…
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dawn
03/25/03 at 16:21:23
[slm]

Just in case anyone was as confused as I was about this whole debate, I decided to post a brief summary of what I found on how kaffir or kafir came to be a derogatory term in some places.  Prior to this thread, I had never known the word "kafir" in any other context but the one in which it was used on this board.  A search of kafir or kaffir on google, however, reveals quite a different story.  Basically, from what I gleaned, when muslim arabs sailed down the African coast way back when, trading and settling, it would appear that they referred to a number of the Bantu people of south eastern Africa as kaffir.  That designation was still used when the Portuguese began to frequent the area, and they in turn passed it on to the English and Dutch that settled.  That name/label stuck, and was even incorporated into the local languages as Kafulcr (or similar variants).  For a good long time it was no big deal -- actually it wasn't a deal at all -- it was simply a name.  Apparently, however, over time, the meaning changed in the derogatory direction, among the English who were in power in South Africa at the time.  And thus, according to what I read, in South Africa today, the term came to mean essentially the same thing as the N word did in the U.S.  

Maybe if any of the South Africans on the board know any more about the history of the development of this term in local usage, they could add it.  


On a side issue, it seems to me from what I have read that the equating of "kafir" with "non-muslim" is one of those many issues concerning which there are various opinions.  One opposing opinion to the one which bhaloo presented here can be found with the folks at [url]www.understanding-islam.org[/url].  One can find several responses to various questions on the topic, but what I post below, I snipped from [url=http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=140][color=Red]here[/color] [/url].

[i]Let us first take the term "Kaafir". "Kaafir" in the Arabic language means "rejecter". The term "Kaafir", normally taken to be synonymous with "non-Muslim" or "non-believer", is quite different from the two terms. A "non-Muslim", obviously, is a person who does not adhere to the Muslim faith. Thus, all those who do not ascribe to the Muslim faith are "non-Muslims". A "non-believer" is generally used for a person who does not believe in God and the Day of Judgment. "Kaafir", on the other hand, is a person who knowingly rejects the truth. A person may not believe in some 'truth' for a number of reasons. For instance, he may not be fully convinced of some aspect of that 'truth' or he may have some doubts in his mind regarding that truth. However, if all doubts are removed from his mind and he becomes fully convinced of that truth, yet he persists in not accepting it or persists in ascribing to a wrong belief after becoming certain of its incorrectness, he then becomes a "Kaafir" and is no longer just a "non-Muslim" or a "non-believer".

In other words, all those people who persist in not accepting Islam after being fully convinced that Islam is the truth of the Almighty or persist in ascribing to a false belief after being convinced of its incorrectness are "Kaafirs" or rejecters of the truth. All others for our purposes are "non-Muslims" or "non-believers ".

This explanation, if considered closely, should clarify the fact that we cannot call anyone a "Kaafir" unless we have absolute knowledge of the reasons for his rejection of faith (or Islam), which we do not possess. Thus, for the purpose of this world, we should not call anyone a "Kaafir". It is only God, Who with His absolute knowledge can declare someone a "Kaafir". No one besides God possesses the knowledge that is essential to declare someone a "Kaafir". [/i]

To me, it seems like we are back to Br. Khalid and intentions, with this one, whether derogatory or not, whether "non-muslim" or "truth-rejecter".  (Though I must admit, with the latter, why on earth would someone who is absolutely convinced of the truth of a religion or belief system persist with another belief?  How could they even keep that other belief if they are convinced otherwise?   ???  Greed or lust for power, I guess?  Though perhaps in those cases, they aren't keeping the former belief, but just "going through the motions" to gain their desired goal.  Otherwise, I just don't get it.)  

With Peace,
Dawn



03/25/03 at 16:26:16
Dawn
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
bhaloo
03/25/03 at 21:16:44
[slm]

Dawn not everything on the website you referred to is authentic, the person that is giving his opinion there is not a scholar, he's just the website owner and gives his take on things from time to time, and he shouldn't be doing that.  I don't suggest you use that site as a source for Islamic knowledge.  The information I posted earlier were from scholars and references included.

Shaikh Uthamain had also said about this matter here:
http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=80

I know also I  had posted the fatawa from Islam-QA before on this when the topic came up.

There is no difference of opinion among the scholars on this matter.

The reference you gave about the slave trade and the origin of kafir there.  It makes sense, that's how words are shared between cultures.  The phrase in Spanish, "Ojala" comes from the Arabic phrase, "Oh Allah", something I learned in Spanish class back in the day. ;)

===============================================

Also in case some people (people new to Islam or that recently reverted) are getting confused by some things in this thread, Muslim women are not allowed to marry a non-Muslim man.  It is prohibited in the Quran.

Sheikh Munajidd had said:

It is absolutely not permissible under any circumstances in Islamic law (shari'a) of Allah, the most esteemed and exhalted, for a non-Muslim to marry a Muslim woman, as per what He has said regarding the marriage of a kafir (unbeliever) to a Muslim woman and vice versa: (interpretation of the meaning).

They are not lawful (wives) for the unbelievers, nor are the unbelievers lawful (husbands) for them... (Al-Mumtahina:10)

And Allah the most esteemed and exhalted has also said (interpretation of the meaning):

Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe... (Al-Baqara:221)

i.e., it is not ever permissable for someone to marry his Muslim daughter or sister or any Muslim woman for whom he is a guardian to a kafir.
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
panjul
03/25/03 at 21:43:55
[slm]

Well dude thanks for clearing it up. I thought you were a muslim, but just not someone who understand all of it... you know? And i must say you are the first person that i know of who's married a muslim woman.
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/26/03 at 00:02:57
Confession time:

I guess technically, I am Muslim. I went through the conversion process, because you're correct, a Muslim woman cannot marry a non-Muslim man.

BUT...

I still had serious troubles accepting parts of the faith in my heart. The major portions (if you can call it that), I'm OK with, but some of the details, I get really hung up on (obviously). I even follow most of the pillars (except praying…it’s incredibly hard to learn, and I admittedly gave up. Besides, I never really put too much emphasis on the need to pray to justify one’s belief in God). One thing: at this point in my life, I can’t say I would be justified in making a trip to Mecca. Who knows, down the road maybe. My wife wants to go, so perhaps I’ll do it for her.

In my view, I can't call myself devout until I fully accept every bit of the religion. Some may interpret that as already being Muslim, as many born Muslims still have lingering questions about their faith. I, personally, don't think I should be calling myself Muslim until I am fully accepting of all it's being.

So, in an effort to learn more I read what I can, and stumbled upon this website. As you can see, I use it for constructive purposes like getting into arguments and such... ;)

Anyhow…I’m not sure what I am. Definitely Agnostic, so to save confusion, I tell others I’m Agnostic.  

I also have a very personal reason for not fully accepting the religion, which I'm not prepared to share. Let's just leave it at that.

There you go…now you know more about Dude than Revenue Canada…and that’s a lot.  ;D
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Emerald
03/26/03 at 00:04:28
Well it appears to me the WHOLE Muslim and non-Muslim community has responded to this thread except for me! So here's my opinion....................It actually surprises me because I think it's quite silly. Now I don't me to be rude Dude, but c'mon - give me a break!!! EVERYONE on this board has stated what the correct definition of kafir is and yet you are convinced that this is not right. That the revised definitin created by culture is the correct definition. Reading your posts and everybody else's, I get the impression that you WANT it mean what you are determined for it to mean. But I do agree with you on one thing and that it really isn't a nice word. But hey it means someone who has rejected/ denied truth ( God's words) and is that something good?! No! So your problem is not really the word but the concept of someone telling you, "you're not a believer". So why should you care? If you believe in what you believe in then it doesn't matter, does it??? Then this is where tolerance in ISlam comes in. Read the chapter 'Al-Kafiroon' in the Quran. I believe this term was to help US Muslims understand the difference between faith and crossing the faith.
   I hope I didn't confuse you because I'm the kind of person that has a million details of info in her brain that sometimes get jumbled up when trying to get a particular point across.
   Now just out of curiousity, what does the word "heathen" mean exactly and from where did it originate?
   Oh...another bit of info that popped into my head. A particular tradition by the Prophet (pbuh) which states ( and not quoted exactly) that the line into kuffur crossed is when a Muslim cuts off salat (prayer). Ahhh and another one....when a Muslim is commiting zina (adultry) he/she is in a state of kuffur. ****If anyone can get me the exact quotes of the ahadith, I'd appreciate it****.......So you see?
    Just remember that Allah (swt) also called Christians and Jews "People of the Book".
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/26/03 at 00:43:11
Not really sure where you're going with any of that.

I'm insulted by the word. That won't change. I'm willing to accept that it does have different cultural meanings. The way I've always known that word to be used, it has been used as a derogatory term. That's my opinion...I don't know why so many people are trying to convince me that I shouldn't be offended by hearing it. BTW- I don't necessarily mean hearing it directed towards me, but hearing it, period.

I haven't bothered to look up heathen, and I won't. I imagine it is the Christian equivalent of "Kafir", but then, it is another word I've never liked, because of the connotation in which it is used. Would you like being called a heathen?
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
bhaloo
03/26/03 at 00:45:31
[slm]

Ok, now I'm confused.   :o    So Dude, you are Muslim.  If you have any questions and doubts I think you should be asking your father in law, he seems like he has a good way of conveying things to you.

You mentioned that preforming the prayers are difficuly.  You mean, what to say, and how to do it?   For people that are learning to pray, they can definitely relate to what you are going through, they can get by with saying some shorter things in the prayers,   I was looking for it but I can't find it now, I'll continue to look, in the meantime if someone has it, they can put it up.  I know its somewhere on this board, but the searching feature on this board is useless.  
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
momineqbal
03/26/03 at 00:55:05
Salam,

try this link

http://islamicity.com/multimedia/cybertv/ch20/default.asp?inc=2.htm#Jamal_Badawi

and then click on commonly misunderstood Quranic texts, there is an explanation of the word Kafir from various angles in the talk. You might find it informative.

Second, any person who explains something to you, might not really be an authority on the subject, if they give you wrong information, its not everyone elses fault.

Also for muslims Kafir is someone who after receiving the message of Islam has rejected it. So unless it has been presented to them properly and they have openly rejected it, we probably can not call them Kafir.

And if you don't agree then peace! Take it that we wont agree.
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/26/03 at 01:21:18
AS DUDE'S WORLD TURNS, PART XXVI

Bhaloo, like I said, I don't know what I am. I converted because I love my wife, and wanted to marry her. I had to...no choice, really. Besides, it was far less a personal sacrifice to me to convert, than to her to risk being alienated by her family, and unhappy in her life by marrying a non-Muslim. It made it easier to find out that Islam is the closest to my personal beliefs than any other religion.

Because of my doubts, and the questions I have about the faith, many would say I'm not Muslim. I don't call myself Muslim. Yes I converted, but did I really? Was I already there (as I've stated: I believe in one God, I believe in the day of Judgment, and I have always willingly followed most of the pillars)? Because there are certain elements of the Muslim religion I haven't accepted into my heart, I can't honestly say I'm Muslim, can I?

I've tried praying, mainly to appease others...but I can't grasp it. The actions, and words. I think that the biggest problem goes to my personal belief that prayer is something you do in private, and in your own way. I’ve also never seen the need to pray to justify our belief in God...he's all knowing, so he already knows what's going on inside you.

So, call me what you like- just don't call me a kafir.

All right? Ok.
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
bhaloo
03/26/03 at 01:42:29
[slm]

[quote author=momineqbal link=board=madrasa;num=1048535034;start=45#46 date=03/26/03 at 00:55:05]Also for muslims Kafir is someone who after receiving the message of Islam has rejected it. So unless it has been presented to them properly and they have openly rejected it, we probably can not call them Kafir.
[/quote]

This is completely wrong, there is no difference of opinion among the ulema with regard to this matter.   Your either Muslim or you aren't.  Why do people get confused on this?  


Since you cited Dr. Jamal Badawi, here is what he said:

"Disbeliever gives only a partial definition under the broader term 'Kafir,' which is divided into 'Mushrikeen [polytheists],' and Ahle Kitab [People of the Book]," he said.  

“Jews and Christians do not disbelieve in God and the core teachings of all the Prophets, hence they cannot be called disbelievers,” he emphasized, commenting that Jews and Christians have no right to complain when called “Kafir” because the difference is on the theological level, and it is up to Allah (SWT) to judge their fate on the Day of Judgment.

above taken from:
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2002-04/16/article39.shtml



  The opinion of all 4 schools of thought are listed below with the reference from part of Abu Khaled's post from a few years back that was posted here (and that I posted earlier).  

"Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam will never have it accepted from him, and shall be of those who have truly failed in the next life" (Koran 3:85)  

and many other verses and hadiths. That Islam is the only remaining valid or acceptable religion is necessarily known as part of our religion, and to believe anything other than this is unbelief (kufr) that places a person outside of Islam, as Imam Nawawi notes:  

"Someone who does not believe that whoever follows another religion besides Islam is an unbeliever (like Christians), or doubts that such a person is an unbeliever, or considers their sect to be valid, is himself an unbeliever (kafir) even if he manifests Islam and believes in it" (Rawda al-talibin, 10.70).  

This is not only the position of the Shafi'i school of jurisprudence represented by Nawawi, but is also the recorded position of all three other Sunni schools: Hanafi (Ibn 'Abidin: Radd al-muhtar 3.287), Maliki (al-Dardir: al-Sharh al-saghir, 4.435), and Hanbali (al-Bahuti: Kashshaf al-qina', 6.170). Those who know fiqh literature will note that each of these works is the foremost fatwa resource in its school. The scholars of Sacred Law are unanimous about the abrogation of all other religions by Islam because it is the position of Islam itself. It only remains for the sincere Muslim to submit to..."  
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
bhaloo
03/26/03 at 01:53:09
[slm]

Very interesting Dude.  From what you had posted earlier in the last few weeks I thought you married your wife and "pretended" to convert, but that doesn't seem to be the case.  It seems like you did accept Islam and are just trying to straighten out some misconceptions you may have.  From what you said, you admit that you believe in all the tenets, and you've probably made a declaration of faith, so that's all that is required for one to be a Muslim.  If one doesn't preform the religious obligations, such as praying, zakat tax, fasting, etc, that doesn't make them a non-Muslim, it just means that they are sinning.  (although some scholars are of the opinion that not praying removes one from the fold of Islam (i think this is only the hanabali school of thought, not sure if other schools hold this view)).   But it seems to me that you are Muslim.  Don't you remember when you first joined this board, one of the first posts I put up to you was that you are almost Muslim (i thought you were non-Muslim, at least that was the impression that came across when you talked about yourself).  Life is a challenge for us all, we are all at different stages, struggling to improve ourselves and becoming better Muslims.  
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
panjul
03/26/03 at 02:24:35
"heathen" means strange, uncivilized

Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/26/03 at 09:54:34
I actually fast, but for the wrong reasons...I do it to support my wife and the family. I don't get anything out of it spiritually, which I think is the intended goal.

Like I said...I don't know. I'm not losing sleep over it though. If all the Muslim scholars in the world agreed that not praying removes one from the fold of Islam, it really wouldn’t make any difference to me. I'm strong in my beliefs, and have a clear conscience.
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
ummfatima02
03/26/03 at 12:25:55
[slm]

  To Dude, jannah and sofia. If you're going to accuse me of 'passing judgements on a man I don't even know, I suggest you better you the quote option available on this post board. Thank you.

  If you are a really avid reader, you would see that I said...

Quote:I have always believed that people view life as they wish to. Muslim and non-muslim. If Your Father-in -law is as pious and sensible as you say he is, maybe on some Muslim's minds they would see him as a Modernist who practices Islam in the Mosque but the religion has no bearing in his life two steps from where he places he sandals.  


I never said that I believe that particular way. WHICH proves my point. Some people just read to see what they want to see and comment on that which they want to comment on.

Gosh darnit I believe all (the three I mentioned) of you owe me an apology. But I'm not going to hold my breath ;)

                         Masalaam, Ummfatima
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/26/03 at 12:48:17
You’re correct: no apology forthcoming.

The suggestion that my father-in law “practices Islam in the Mosque but the religion has no bearing in his life two steps from where he places he sandals” is insulting enough for me. What’s the difference between the suggestion, and the accusation? What you’re doing is putting the idea out there, and I don’t appreciate it.

Besides, from what seen in him, verses what I’ve seen in other Muslim men I’ve gotten to know, they can’t hold a candle to his ethics, morals, and the way he conducts himself and looks after his family. Actions speak louder than words- he walks the walk.
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
sofia
03/26/03 at 15:20:11
As-salaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullaah, UmmFatimah -  

[quote]Gosh darnit I believe all (the three I mentioned) of you owe me an apology.[/quote]

I apologize for any insinuation or unintended ill-will on my part towards you or anyone else.

"Beware of suspicion, for suspicion is the worst of false tales. And do not look for the others' faults, and do not spy on one another, and do not practice Najsh (i.e. do not offer a high price for a thing which you do not want to buy, in order to deceive the people), and do not be jealous of one another and do not hate one another, and do not desert (stop talking to) one another.

O, God's worshippers! Be brothers!" - Prophet Muhammad (S), Saheeh Bukhaari Collection.
NS
03/26/03 at 15:22:35
sofia
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
ummfatima02
03/27/03 at 14:05:12
[slm]

  I accept your apology, Sister Sofia. And May Allah Give you the Highest Station in Jannah with the Messenger of ALlah, Muhumad [saw]

You have acted like a true believer. For ALlah's messenger said:

   "Noone with a mustard seed's ounce of pride will enter the Jannah."
        (translation)

To Dude, it's like I said, I didn't hold my breath for your apology. I can tell from your posts what kind of person I'm dealing with. And I choose not to go on and on with you in this subject For Allah the almighty, the all wise said:
Surah Al-An'am: 6:25          
"And of them there are some who listen to you; but We have set veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they see every one of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) they will not believe therein; to the point that when they come to you to argue with you, the disbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the men of old."

Surah Al-'Imran: 3:105          
 And be not as those who divided and differed among themselves after the clear proofs had come to them. It is they for whom there is an awful torment.

[wlm]

   Ummfatima

P.S. May Allah reward all the sister and brothers who have offered clear proofs on the use of the word 'kafir' from QUran and Sunnah, ameen
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
Dude
03/27/03 at 15:34:54
[quote]P.S. May Allah reward all the sister and brothers who have offered clear proofs on the use of the word 'kafir' from QUran and Sunnah, ameen
[/quote]
Nice. That's right up there with athletes who pray for victory before games. Just my opinion, but I don't think this will register very high on the radar screen. Not even a blip.

For the last time: I have always known that word as the slang version. It really isn't all that uncommon. If it has been abused all these years, I can't help that.

I'm still a little surprised you had the gall to ask [i]me[/i] for an apology. Really, it should be the other way around. You clearly wrote something that more than one person interpreted as a pre-judgment. I’m not going to apologize for you writing something silly. What, exactly, do you want me to apologies to [i]you[/i] for? What, exactly, have you done to even warrant my forgiving you for your comments? You haven’t even acknowledged how your comments can be viewed as insulting.

Pretty shortsighted. Thanks for the reply, though.
Re: Kafir..what's in a word?
bhaloo
03/27/03 at 20:28:52
[slm]

The original question has been answered, and this thread is just degrading into insults, so I'm locking it.  In the future, please refrain from doing this.


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