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The US Troops
a_Silver_Rose
03/31/03 at 15:43:43
[slm] I have been lately thinking how this would be for the US Troops who are against this war, Muslim or not. After sept 11 an enormous amount of people have converted to Islam...but they will still have to go to war if they are already enlisted.  They must feel like they are in a very tough situation, but ofcourse they will have to also have to fight to defend themselves.  This guy I used to work with was a soldier and has to finish his term. He was telling me when he first went he thought he was going to serve his country, but after he had seen war and has studied tremendous amount of history he completely became antiamerican gov.  He still has to finish his term. This war is not just terrifying for Iraqi civilians but also very terrifying for the Iraqi and US soldiers. The terror they see results to many psychological affects. In the news they said there are already 100,000 troops and there are going to be a 100,000 more troops going next month :(  May Allah (swt) protect the innocent, and give courage to the troops. May Allah (swt) also help their families stay strong. Am'een.

Re: The US Troops
bhaloo
03/31/03 at 21:31:34
[slm] Give courage to the troops?  They are the enemy and the invaders.  If you mean give them the courage to resist the US government's barabaric calls for war, I agree..  May Allah (SWT) protect the Muslims and grant them victory.

Re: The US Troops
ltcorpest2
03/31/03 at 22:36:01
I hope it is a quick end and the least amount of people get hurt and  safety for all the iraqi people.

Re: The US Troops
BroHanif
04/01/03 at 01:22:44
Hmm interesting but what is quick Mike ??? The war itself or after the war ? Do you feel that the UK and US governments have no idea to who is going to take charge of the country after the war. I feel its going to be another Northern Ireland or Vietnam with gurrila attacks occuring regularly. Hanif

Re: The US Troops
ltcorpest2
04/01/03 at 02:55:16
Hanif,  it probably will be,  and it would eventually would be without the UK and the USA's help also.  If and when Saddam's reign ended there would be huge paybacks from the Kurds and the Shiites.  My hope is that there can be some type of coalition government that wil not involve a civil war, but it is impossible  to tell.  But, I do pray that it is the case that the Iraqis get a good government that respects the rights of all peoples.  i just hope that Saddam doesnt have a Jim Jones mentality.

Re: The US Troops
a_Silver_Rose
04/01/03 at 13:57:10
[wlm] [quote]May Allah (SubHana Wa Ta`ala) protect the Muslims and grant them victory. [/quote] Im not sure I want Sadaam to win. He terrorizes his people too much. I dont agree with the war, but now that there is one, maybe its time for a change and a better future for the people of Iraq, insh'Allah. I heard that some of the Iraqi's are actually welcoming the US Troops into their homes.  In the Qur'an it tells us that we have to stop the oppressed and its our duty to bring justice. [quote]I hope it is a quick end and the least amount of people get hurt and  safety for all the iraqi people.[/quote] yes insh'Allah
04/01/03 at 13:58:08
a_Silver_Rose

Re: The US Troops
BroHanif
04/01/03 at 14:11:15
Salaams, [quote]I heard that some of the Iraqi's are actually welcoming the US Troops into their homes.  quote] Hmm maybe they are, maybe they do need security but what I want to know is how long the US/UK will stay there in Iraq. Who are the next leaders of Iraq and will the Baath party be allowed in a democratic process. I mean if there are free elections then shouldn't that mean the Baath party be allowed to govern office ?. Theres an interesting article I found on the Guardian. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/dailybriefing/story/0,12965,924728,00.html access it and it makes me think how far will these people go to achieve their evil aims. Yet there is no point to feel disheartened we need to work hard and raise awareness and be active to understand what is happening. May Allah give us all strength in these dark days. Salaams Hanif
NS

Re: The US Troops
Maliha
04/01/03 at 14:23:02
[slm] When I was preparing the speech for the anti war rally, some people from the Masjid were advising me to say something along the lines of "We support the troops", etc. I refused and was very mad...As Muslims we shouldn't support the troops. They are slaughtering our brothers and sisters, and its just not fair. They do have a choice to say no, even if it means jail time, but they can resist and that's the point. I dont' know we feel like we need to appease the wider public by saying things that "sound nice". agghhhh. But the point is, I do feel like the US and Britain are using the troops and everyone else to the advantage of the Elite. When you think about it, the general make up of the military is young, disadvantaged kids that join....People of color are dispropotionately represented in the military, and a lot of times its because of lack of options. In inner city high schools, military recruiters are more visible than most colleges or other career options. The wider american public needs to wake up...but with the constant churning of Fox, NBC, CNN, etc. that will take a looong time :( Sis, Maliha [wlm]

Re: The US Troops
ltcorpest2
04/01/03 at 17:04:33
When you think about it, the general make up of the military is young, disadvantaged kids that join....People of color are dispropotionately represented in the military, and a lot of times its because of lack of options. In inner city high schools, military recruiters are more visible than most colleges or other career options.   Maliha,  that is not what the facts say.  The disproportion amount of front line troops tend to be caucasian. Experts seek roots of military's racial makeup By Dave Moniz and Tom Squitieri, USA TODAY WASHINGTON — When Tom Wall was a young Army officer stationed in Hawaii in the early 1980s, he noticed something surprising. Although he knew that African-Americans made up nearly 30% of the enlisted Army, Wall didn't see nearly that many black infantry soldiers in the 25th Division, a front-line combat force. Over the next 15 years, until he retired in 1997, Wall saw even fewer black soldiers in the Army's elite commando units. His conclusion: Black and white recruits probably viewed military job choices quite differently. Blacks, he suspected, often joined the service to learn a skill and possibly make the Army a career. Whites, Wall surmised, were more likely to view the Army as a short detour to earn money for college and collect cash bonuses for those who signed up for ground combat units. Demographic data tend to support Wall's notion of a racial divide. The tendency of whites to cluster in front-line combat units and blacks in support jobs is well known among a small group of experts who study the military. Although there are a number of theories, no one is exactly sure why. "I don't know of anyone who has completely explained away the phenomenon," says James Burk, a political sociologist at Texas A&M University. Burk and others who have studied the trend say it does not mean black soldiers are any less courageous or dedicated. In an age where terrorists could attack U.S. forces anywhere, both front-line and rear-echelon troops are at risk, experts say. On the eve of a threatened U.S. invasion of Iraq, concerns about the military's racial and class makeup have raised questions about the fairness of America's all-volunteer force. Pointing to a military that is disproportionately black, and often from lower income and less educated families, Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., has proposed resurrecting a draft. "Go and see how many Ph.D.s there are in the military and how many people from the top 10% of income levels," says Emile Milne, Rangel's spokesman. A closer look But a close examination of Pentagon statistics suggests that at least some of the conventional wisdom about who is most at risk during wartime is misleading. For example, although blacks account for 26% of Army troops, they make up a much smaller percentage of those in front-line combat units, the most likely to be killed or injured in a conventional war. In all four military branches, black recruits tend to favor support jobs, from mechanic to unit administrator, over traditional combat slots such as infantryman or fighter pilot. That division of labor is well known within the armed forces. But the root causes and the question of whether it's relevant in an age when recruits typically choose their own jobs remain subjects of debate. Scholars and military personnel specialists say there are several possible explanations for the relatively small number of blacks in jobs that involve dropping bombs and shooting rifles. The most plausible include economic factors, cultural differences and fears that a subtle form of racism has made minorities feel unwelcome, especially in elite units. Since the Pentagon started the all-volunteer military in the early 1970s, black unemployment has frequently been double the rate for whites. So, for a large number of black recruits, it's important to select military jobs that teach marketable skills. David Segal, a military sociologist at the University of Maryland, says that's probably a good reason more black soldiers don't join infantry units: "There aren't a lot of corporations looking to hire people who fire rifles for a living." But companies might want to recruit former soldiers who have computer or administrative skills. In fact, blacks greatly outnumber whites as administrative specialists in the enlisted Army: 4,758 to 2,689. Navy statistics are similar: Though blacks make up about 18% of the Navy, they account for 32% of enlisted administrative specialists. The Army, as the largest and most diverse branch of the armed forces, has for decades encouraged recruits to view the nation's high-tech military as a big trade school. The Army developed an advertising jingle, "Be All That You Can Be," that touted self-improvement. The ad, discontinued two years ago, was one of the most successful PR campaigns in history. John Butler, a black Vietnam veteran and co-author of the book All That We Can Be: Black Leadership and Racial Integration the Army Way, says he believes there's another important way that blacks and whites choose military jobs. They often follow family traditions. Butler says many African-Americans enter the military on recommendations from relatives, many of whom served in support jobs themselves, using those skills later to find civilian employment. "A lot of this is related to what your mother and father did," he says. "There's a reason I don't play ice hockey." Subtle racism might play a role in the representation of African-Americans in elite units such as the Green Berets and the SEALs, both less than 5% black. Segal says many blacks may not feel welcome in a subculture that "grew up as a white, largely Southern area of the military." There is also a cultural theory to explain why whites seem more interested in jobs that involve shooting rifles. Segal notes that whites, especially those from rural areas, are more likely to have hunted, fished and camped than their black or Hispanic counterparts. Wall says those skills are a kind of prep school for numerous combat jobs. Race, class and history During World War II, black soldiers were assigned to segregated units and barred from most combat jobs in the military because of prevailing racist attitudes. The Tuskegee Airmen, a celebrated group of black fighter pilots, won numerous battles with German pilots during the war and dispelled widespread stereotypes among whites that blacks weren't brave enough or smart enough. During the Vietnam War, when the government drafted foot soldiers, the problem wasn't getting African-Americans into ground combat. It was just the opposite. Early in the war, blacks were killed and injured at rates significantly higher than whites, leading to allegations that the draft was unfair and minorities and poor whites were paying a heavy price. By war's end, after civil rights leaders had protested the elevated casualty rates, black combat deaths had fallen to 12%, roughly in line with the African-American population in the USA. The unpopular war left another legacy. Millions of young, predominantly white men were able to avoid the draft by joining the National Guard or receiving draft exemptions while attending college. Since Vietnam, the nation's all-volunteer military has come to be regarded as the best in the world. But it is also shunned by children of the powerful and wealthy. Charlie Moskos, a military sociologist at Northwestern University, notes that during his senior year at Princeton University in 1956, 400 of 750 men who graduated went on to serve in the armed forces. Last year, in a class of 1,000 men and women, Moskos says, three Princeton graduates became military officers. Texas A&M's Burk says it is impossible to discuss the fabric of America's military without noticing the absence of wealthy and upper-middle class families. "The inequities today have as much to do with class as with race," he says. Experts remain divided over whether the relatively small number of blacks in many combat jobs is a bad thing. Burk says the situation is wrong only if the disparities are the result of racism. "If the answer to that is no, then what you have is simply an interesting pattern," he says. Hanif,  in regards to the Baath party,  for some reason I doubt it, although many entrenched civil srevants will become memebers of other parties as is typical when the minority that rules over the vast majority loses control.  Kinda like the communists in the former soviet republics, they just transformed themselves into something else.

Re: The US Troops
sofia
04/01/03 at 18:03:42
[quote]Maliha,  that is not what the facts say.  The disproportion amount of front line troops tend to be caucasian. [/quote] Mike, please keep in mind that African-Americans make up 12-13% of the general US population (average). Caucasions make up an average 77%. Check Census stats [url=http://www.govspot.com/news/reports/population.htm]here[/url]. Stats like those mentioned in this article are useless, unless compared to general population stats and other trends that affect the make-up of the military, which no legit statistician or demographer would neglect doing. Considering the sub-title of this article, the author does not even mention exactly what % of African-Americans are on the front-line. What Maliha is getting at, is that compared to general population stats in the US, minority populations (black, brown, whatever) are disproportionately represented in the US military. Pretty much always has been the case for some minorities, unfortunately. Reasons behind this vary, which is another topic.
NS
04/01/03 at 18:07:24
sofia

Re: The US Troops
panjul
04/01/03 at 18:34:36
[slm] That's an interesting article Mike. I don't know much about the military in terms of statistics (all i know is all the wars they fought!) :)  so i'm hesitant to say who's the disadvantaged here. So is there a test(S) to see who would qualify in a support job and who would be the best guy that can learn to fly a plane or be a leader in commanding the tanks on the battleground?

Re: The US Troops
ltcorpest2
04/01/03 at 19:03:05
Sophia,  What the article is saying, although there is a larger proportional amount of  minorities that make up the military compared to the general; population, the larger proportion that is more likely to be in harms way are caucasian.  There is a lot of leeway in what areas of service you want to participate in.  In combat situations there is extra pay, so if you are only singning up for a short stint and want the money and future benefits IE: college education etc. it tends to be more caucasian, while if you are looking for job skills there tends to be more blacks signing up for those positions.  The pilots would be different, because it is combined education with physical skills and tend to be more long term service.

Re: The US Troops
a_Silver_Rose
04/01/03 at 22:23:06
[slm] [quote]Give courage to the troops?  They are the enemy and the invaders.  If you mean give them the courage to resist the US government's barabaric calls for war, I agree..  [/quote] Easier said than Done.  They can go to jail for that.  If they should get the courage to resist going, then we should get the courage to  boycott taxes which go to Israel to kill millions of Muslims! Brother Bhaloo do you refuse to pay the taxes that shed blood on our brothers and sisters everyday? I dont think the US troops are the 'enemy and the invaders' I think thats an overgeneralization, and they are just following orders just like we are! Having said that, I think it would wonderful if we all got the courage to boycott taxes and go on strike until US gov stops supporting Israel, it hurts me tremendously that in some way I am taking part in the bloodshed, but then again Easier said than Done.

Re: The US Troops
bhaloo
04/02/03 at 01:19:45
[slm] One of the famous scholars, Shaykh Hamid al-`Ali was asked this question and gave the response below (this was trasnlated by a brother some time back) Q: I am a Muslim American and I need your assistance. Here in America we have gone to war against Muslims and I am a soldier in the U.S. Army. They may send me to fight in the war which will be against Muslims. They may send me in spite of my being Muslim. This has me greatly disturbed. My sense of being Muslim prevents me from ever having any desire to fight against Muslims in any war. What should I do? What is the ruling if I am to go? They say this is a war against terrorism and not against Islam. A: We ask Allah, the Exalted, that your deeds be upon righteousness and good, and that you be averted from falling into anything that angers Allah. To answer your question, it is forbidden for a Muslim to kill his Muslim brother even if it is by military orders. Furthermore, it is forbidden for him to kill even a non-Muslim without good reason. If you are ordered to kill Muslims then withdraw and do not go with them. Everyone knows, including the non-Muslims, that the American forces are not executing the wishes of the American people. They are but executing the wishes of the American government in pursuing their oppressive foreign policy. They are from the oppressive policies which are no less than full support for the Jews who kill Muslims daily, rob them of their land, destroy their homes; And they do not call this terrorism. The American foreign policy, like the policies of a dictatorship, pushed the terrorists against its people. They do not desist from these policies which are no less than terrorism only to achieve their own benefit. Most of the American people know -- even the non-Muslims - that the American government is not conducting what is in the best interest of the American people. However, it is for the benefit of a small group who are allied with the Jews from positions of power in the two parties, Republican and Democrat, as well as the rich who steer the American economy. And these wars which America is wading itself into, thereby, exposing its sons to warfare is absolutely not in the interest of the American nation. Therefore, the Islamic Shari`ah, logically sound thought, and your personal interests as well, all make clear that it is not right for you to take part in acts of fighting or any participation contributing to acts of war against your Muslim brethren whether in Afghanistan or any other land. For verily Allah has said in the Qur'an: "Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Awliyaa' instead of the believers; And whoever does so will never be helped by Allah in anything.." [Surah Aal-`Imraan, 3:28, Awliyaa' - Protectors, supporters, friends, etc] The meaning of this verses is that Allah, the Exalted, disavows the Muslim who sides with the disbelievers against their own Muslim brothers, or aids the disbelievers in their war against their Muslim brothers. We have seen signs that the non-Muslim Americans are staging marches and demonstrations calling for the repeal of the declaration of war against Afghanistan. For they know that this war is not in the interest of the American people. It is only a war which is waged at the behest of the American Jewish population for their protection against the Muslims. I hope that you understand this answer, may Allah blessings be with you, and Allah knows best. ;===============================================

Re: The US Troops
bhaloo
04/02/03 at 01:24:51
[slm] The same brother also translated this portion here from the famous scholar, Shaikh Humood bin Uqlaa ash-Shu'aib (this was at the time of their invasion and bombing of Afghanistan) [Note an introduction on al-walaa and al-baraa was not translated]. And with that brief [discussion] on al-walaa' and al-baraa', it becomes clear the degree of importance of these two pillars and their position in Islam. As for supporting and assisting the unbelievers (al-kuffaar) against the Muslims, it is unbelief (kufr) expelling [someone] out of the religion (milla) of Islam according to all whose opinion is recognized among the scholars of the nation (umma) past and present. The Imaam, the Mujaddid, Muhammad b. Abdul-Wahhaab -- may Allah be merciful with him -- has said: The eighth matter [which expels someone from the fold of Islam]: To support and assist the pagan (al-mushrikun) against the Muslims. The evidence is [Allah's] Statement -- Exalted be He -- "And he amongst you who takes them as friends, then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not the unjust people." (5:51) 'Allama 'Abdullah b. 'Abdul-Lateef was questioned regarding the difference between al-muwalaat and at-tawallee, he replied that at-tawallee is "Unbelief (kufr) expelling someone from the religion (al-milla). And it is to defend them or assist them with wealth, body, or advice." The Shaikh, 'Allama Ahmad Shaakir has said explaining the ruling regarding resisting and fighting the infidels (kuffaar). "It is required upon every Muslim in any land on earth to fight them wherever they may be, [whomever] they may be civilians or military." He then said, "As for cooperating with the British in any form of cooperation -- little or great -- it is clear apostasy (ridda) regarding which no excuse is accepted, nor interpretation [of the texts is acceptable], nor is one saved from such a ruling due to foolish nationalism, or empty political strategy, or attempting to be on board -- which in reality is hypocrisy. Irrespective if this appears from individuals, nations, or leaders they are all equal in apostasy with the exception of the one who is ignorant. Until he said -- may Allah be merciful with: Then let every Muslim male and female know that those who step out [ofthe fold] of their religion and assist their enemies whoever then marries from them, the marriage is null and void. It cannot be corrected nor does any of the consequences of the marriage contract occur like the affirmation of parental lineage, inheritance, etc. Whoever among them is married then their marriage is rendered null and void. Based upon this, whoever supports and aides -- in any shape or form of support or assistance -- the nations of unbelief (kufr) -- like America and its allies in unbelief -- against the Muslims, he is an unbeliever (kaafir) who has apostated from Islam. This is because this attack which the criminal Bush and his friend in unbelief (kufr) and criminality (ijraam), the Prime Minister of Britain, Blair continue to call to and which they claim they are fighting terrorism is nothing but a crusade like the previous historical crusades against Islam and the Muslims. And the criminal Bush himself openly declared that irrespective if it that was a slip of the tongue or if he was fully aware of that. For it is this which he and the leaders of unbelief believe. One should not be surprised by this enmity and hatred against Islam and the Muslims from these Crusaders and Zionists.  For unbelief  -- even if it is different creeds -- is one creed when it comes to their enmity and hatred of the Muslims. Allah -- ta'ala -- said: "And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion if they can." (2:217) So there is nothing strange regarding their enmity to and warring against the Muslims. What is strange is the assistance of some rulers and individual Muslims to these infidels and giving them assistance and allowing them to use land, air, and military bases so that the enemies of Allah and His Messenger can strike the Muslims. And at this point we call all the Muslims peoples and rulers that they stand forth and give victory to their brethren the mujaahideen in the lands of the Afghaan with everything they are capable of from body, wealth, prayer, and propaganda. As we advise our brothers in the lands of the Afghaan to be patient, and to be firm, and to fight until death in resisting this aggression. And our hope with Allah is that the lands of the Afghaan will be a graveyard for these tyrants and arrogant [oppressors] as it was a graveyard for the Soviet Union and the English before. As we remind our brothers in [the lands of] the Afghaan with the condition of the Muslims during the battle of the Ahzaab when all the forces of unbelief allied and attacked Medina to wipe out the Muslims. However, Allah --- subhaanahu wa ta'aala --- with His might which cannot be broken shook them and split their ranks as He --- subhaanahu wa ta'aala --- indicated to that by His Statement: "When they caie upon you from above you and from below you when the eyes grew wild and the hearts reached to the throats and you were imagining various thoughts about Allah. There were the believers tried and shaken with a mighty shaking." (33:10-11) We ask Allah to give victory to our brethren in Afghanistan and to unify their word and to give them victory over the Jews and Christians and all tho se who support and assist them. O Allah! Destroy the Americans and their supporters. O Allah split their ranks and turn their plots against them. And may Allah bless our Prophet Muhammad and his family and all his companions. Dictated by His Eminence Shaikh Humood bin Uqlaa ash-Shu'aibi 7-21-1422

Re: The US Troops
ltcorpest2
04/02/03 at 02:17:39
Bhaloo,  thank you for the exellent articles.  If you agree with these articles, then I would have to ask the question:  Why is it you live in the United States?  Aren't you giving aid to the enemy by working and paying taxes?  This is not meant to be an Americe love it or leave it question, but to ask why if everything that the USA does is against your religion then how do you reconcile it with what you just posted?  ¥ou are siding with the Kaaffirs by being here , at least that is what the tone of the articles you posted seem to be saying.

Re: The US Troops
sofia
04/02/03 at 08:57:46
This article states: [quote]There is also a cultural theory to explain why whites seem more interested in jobs that involve shooting rifles. [/quote] No comment on that other than, go see: "Bowling for Columbine." And I rarely recommend movies. Otherwise, Mike, this article also mentions: [quote]In an age where terrorists could attack U.S. forces anywhere, both front-line and rear-echelon troops are at risk, experts say. [/quote] and [quote]On the eve of a threatened U.S. invasion of Iraq, concerns about the military's racial and class makeup have raised questions about the fairness of America's all-volunteer force. Pointing to a military that is disproportionately black, and often from lower income and less educated families, Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., has proposed resurrecting a draft. [/quote] and [quote]Although he knew that African-Americans made up nearly 30% of the enlisted Army, Wall didn't see nearly that many black infantry soldiers in the 25th Division, a front-line combat force.[/quote] Again, keep in mind that African-Americans make up 12-13% of the US population. This article does not state the actual % of African-Americans on the "front-lines" or even current mortality rates (on past or current wars, other than Vietnam), which would be interesting to see (and not in a good way). So to reach the conclusion: [quote]the larger proportion that is more likely to be in harms way are caucasian[/quote] has little to do with this article. Btw, living a lifetime in rough neighborhoods is considerably more dangerous adn in "harms way" (ie, crime rates, mortality rates, etc) than living in the suburbs. I don't think I need to explain the demographics there. I don't mean to harp on this issue, I'm just wary of the information that people are fed (particularly during war-time), and how it's interpreted. Another example I've mentioned before are internet polls, like those suggesting the % of Americans who are pro-Bush/pro-war. Rarely do reporters comment on the breakdown of the sample of people who are polled. Like, what are the demographics of those who have internet access? of those who visit CNN or MSNBC? of those who actually respond to internet polls? In other words, unless you go door-to-door in a large random sample of houses in the US, you won't get an accurate picture. Ok, back to the topic...[backing out now]
NS

Re: The US Troops
bhaloo
04/02/03 at 09:11:25
[quote author=mike aka ltcorpest2 link=board=ummah;num=1049143423;start=15#15 date=04/02/03 at 02:17:39]Aren't you giving aid to the enemy by working and paying taxes? [/quote] Is there any "Muslim" country that doesn't give aid to those fighting the Muslims?  Saudi Arabia let the US use their land as military bases, and let cruise missles fly over head.  Kuwait was used as a launching point for the military operations.  Pakistan let the US use their land and airspace for the invasion of Afghanistan.  And the list goes on. Here were 2 scholars on islam-online.net that commented on questions of the nature that you asked: Question How can a Muslim live, work, and pay taxes in the West, given the support of the Western powers to Israel, and the war carried out against Islam in the name of fighting terrorism all around the world?   Name of Mufti Sheikh Faysal Mawlawi   Content of Reply In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. All thanks and praise are due to Allah and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger. Dear brother in Islam, thanks for forwarding your question to us, and we implore Almighty Allah to make our efforts come up to your expectations. As regards your question, the following is the fatwa issued by Sheikh Faysal Mawlawi, deputy chairman of the European Council for Fatwa and Research: “I think that there is no relation between the two matters. We can all see many Muslim countries supporting the US in its so-called “Anti-Terrorism Campaign” and even support the US to fight Islam under the pretext of fighting terrorism. Every Muslim finds himself on the horns of dilemma, for he has to support his Muslim brothers and there is a rope tied around his neck. However, Allah does not place something on people beyond their capability. A Muslim cannot escape paying the taxes whether in a Muslim or a non-Muslim country regardless of how the taxes paid are used and despite the fact that the taxes may be used in fighting Islam and Muslims. There are many other things a Muslim can do in this case, such as boycotting the Israeli and American products, especially those that benefit the economy of the countries fighting Islam. We should strike a great balance between the harms and the benefits and spare no pains in this concern. We should always remember the verse that reads: “ hath not laid upon you in religion any hardship” (Al-Hajj: 78) Almighty Allah knows best.   ;============================================= Question: I am a US citizen by birth. The US sends 3 billion dollars a year to support the so-called state of Israel, sent troops that killed many Muslims in Afghanistan, bombed Sudan in the past and has seized the property of Muslim charity organizations and Muslim financial organizations. The US continues to discriminate against Muslims in many ways. IS IT PERMITTED TO PAY INCOME TAX TO SUCH A COUNTRY, when there is no differentiation on where the tax money is used?   Name of Mufti Dr. Monzer Kahf   Content of Reply In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger. Dear brother in Islam, we would like to thank you for showing keenness on knowing the teachings of Islam, and we appreciate the great confidence you have in us. We hope our efforts meet your expectations. With regard to your question, Dr. Monzer Kahf, a prominent Muslim economist and counselor, answers: “As long as you live in the USA as a citizen and a legal resident you certainly must abide by the laws of the United States. Falling in trouble with law is worse than the fact that part of your taxes is used by the government to display some sort of anti-Islam campaigns, such as giving full and blind support to the Israeli atrocities in Palestine. As Muslims in the USA, citizens and legal residents, while abiding by the law we are also required to be proactive in the political and social arena to change the unjust policies undertaken by the US government. Such changes can only be accomplished through active participation in the national and state affairs of our country. Remember that it’s the duty of the citizens and legal residents of this country to help the government improve and cater for people’s welfare. This is our destiny as American Muslims and our duty that our religion requires us to do in this society. We must realize that Allah Almighty sent the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, with divine message as a mercy for mankind. We have to make this mercy a reality in America

Re: The US Troops
Maliha
04/02/03 at 09:17:10
[slm] I alwayz laugh at polls and how much news casters gloat over them...One thing also that's never mentioned is how many people actually polled? Out of millions of people even if a thousand vote on an issue, is that really representative? I don't waste my time going on line to answer one survey or another, and many people I know don't... Also thanks Sofia you really brought up a good point about demographics? who is actually polling, and are they from a certain class, race, etc? Most people really don't care! Apathy is rampant....some people are directly against the war, and are acting towards it, some are just ambivalent as long as it doesn't affect them, and some are just blindly echoing everything they hear on the media. I feel pity for the latter two, since the negative ramifications of this war will affect everyone, while the positive (oil, wealth, etc) will only go the elite few. silverrose..as Muslims we are required by our religion to follow the rule of the land (i.e. we can't evade taxes). Mike I think its funny how everytime someone doesn't support the all freedom loving, liberating, empire we live in you go back to touting the usual "leave if you don't like it"..how about we are patriotic enough to demand Justice and Peace for our beloved brothers and sisters worldwide? Or we are patriotic enough not to want the average innocent american to be harmed in the growing tide of Anti American sentiment world wide? Why can't we propose a change for the better? Or is it what you claim not to propose..Love it or Leave it? I just don't get it... Maliha [wlm]

Re: The US Troops
ltcorpest2
04/02/03 at 09:43:23
maliha,   I know i have never posted anything about loving it or leavng it before ever.  Dissent is part of American life.  My comment was in response to Bhaloo's post and if he believed in what the imam was saying.  America like all nations needs to guard against many things and popular dissent is very important.  So i kinda think you missed my point.

Re: The US Troops
a_Silver_Rose
04/02/03 at 15:33:21
[slm] [quote]as Muslims we are required by our religion to follow the rule of the land (i.e. we can't evade taxes).  [/quote] I know that. I think you also missed my point. This is what I said: [quote]I dont think the US troops are the 'enemy and the invaders' I think thats an overgeneralization, and they are just following orders just like we are![/quote] My point is clearly what I wrote above. [quote]“As long as you live in the USA as a citizen and a legal resident you certainly must abide by the laws of the United States. Falling in trouble with law is worse than the fact that part of your taxes is used by the government to display some sort of anti-Islam campaigns, such as giving full and blind support to the Israeli atrocities in Palestine.[/quote] This clearly sais that falling in trouble with the law is worse than our taxes going to Israel. The money that goes to kill muslims. The US troops are following the law. I do feel they are in a very tough situation. Have you ever been to war? Have you read of the horror they go through? I am sure they have family here too u know, and jail is not going to help that! I personally do think they should resist, but if they dont I cant label them as 'invaders or my enemies' Simply because I dont resist paying taxes. I was born and raised in the US so they can not deport me for not paying taxes but they can send me to jail. This is the same punishment for refusing to go to war, (it is probly worse for refusing to go to war) The imam gives the explanation, as you do that Muslim countries are also helping out the US. Most of them help out by letting them use land, not by our personal money. Muslims countries do not provide money for weapons to the US as US provides for Israel. So our personal money is not really involved. The only thing in those countries, are the products, which we can boycott just as we do in the US. Brother I just want you to understand what I am trying to say. We should always think before generalizing or calling a group of people kufar. We are not perfect ourselves. Like I always say only Allah (swt) knows what are in the hearts of men. maybe I am also wrong Allah (swt) knows best. take it eazy your sis

Re: The US Troops
Maliha
04/02/03 at 16:31:32
[slm] I guess i'm on the streak for missing all the points today :-[ I guess we are just looking at it from two different lenses...The taxes I pay (which is a very small amount), goes to many different projects...nice roads, parks, education, etc and yes, military is part of it, but honestly the little money I pay in this country, would be utilized in ways I detest even in so called Muslim countries (corruption is rampant for one). So there's really no escaping that fact. I live in the comforts of the West, I don't mind paying taxes...In Kenya, we paid taxes (though I was too young to do so) and we barely saw our money's worth, schools were disingtegrating, roads horrific, etc etc... Honestly although I do feel bad for all the humans involved, the soldiers to me are neither this "heroic, brave men" that are constantly lauded in the media, nor "poor helpless victims". They are human beings. For a human to agree to take on a Weapon of Mass Destruction and bomb my innocent brothers and sisters and babies into extinction is inconceivable to me. Just today a British general criticized American troops for being too trigger happy. I heard testimonies from Iraqis on [url=www.democracynow.org]Democracy now[/url], talking about following "orders" through the leaflet propaganda spread by the US Army, telling them to leave their villages and turn themselves in to safety. They did exactly that, and two families were blown away even while they were waving for safety! A woman in a dead, leaden voice was talking about how she watched two of her children's heads blown away!  >:( Subhana Allah. How can I find it in my heart to feel sorry for a man who kills an innocent old man, a baby, and a woman for no reason? Nothing is fair in war....and the height of injustice is exemplified in this particular one. It's a sad chapter of tragedy in human history that we are witnessing today..and the blood in *all* our hands is too thick. Those muted voices will ask us on the Day of Judgement, We bore witness to their tragic, senseless deaths...but what did we do? Sis, Maliha [wlm]

Re: The US Troops
yunus
04/02/03 at 17:37:25
hey I think we should all support the troops if they go AWOL or frag their officers

Re: The US Troops
a_Silver_Rose
04/02/03 at 17:53:28
[slm] I just wanted to add that although I feel the troops might be in a tough situation and i know they are facing horror, because war is simply horror does not necessarily mean I support the troops.  (just incase anyone thinks that)  I just remember reading about the vietnam war and hearing from people how dreadful it was when they came back. They couldnt sleep for months/years, and had nightmares, and many psychological affects.  This not only affected them, but their family also. I was just thinking about all this, that is why I put this post up. I have also heard how men become animals during war.  Bush is really hurting his own people this way. ..Yes again I do think they should resist, but if they dont have the courage to then I still feel for them . If i shouldnt then may Allah (swt) forgive me. I feel the same way for the Iraqi troops. The person I can truly judge to be the enemy is Sharone and Sadaam because both have been clearly terrorizing my Muslim Brothers and Sisters. Allah (swt) knows best your sister
04/03/03 at 21:20:19
a_Silver_Rose

Re: The US Troops
bhaloo
04/02/03 at 21:26:14
[slm] Don't worry Maliha, someone did understand what you were saying, mashallah very good, so eloquently put, I agree with you completely. :) Crazy Muslimah, the Muslims in the military have a choice not to be in the military.  Right?  Even killing non-Muslims unjustly isn't right.  And I think we have come to realize that things in the US government isn't about what's right or wrong, but about economic gains and other greed.  Also remember  the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is reported to have said: “Cursing the Muslim is lewdness and killing him is disbelief.”  He is also reported to have said: “Do not (become infidels) revert to disbelief after me by striking the necks (cutting the throats) of one another (killing each other).” (Reported by Al-Bukhari)   So these Muslims in the US army had better rethink what they are doing.  How can they live with themselves knowing that they blew up some Muslim kids or killed some women?  It should be clear to them that they should leave the military, so they can be all they can be.

Re: The US Troops
panjul
04/02/03 at 22:16:09
[slm] couldnt sleep for months/years, and had nightmares, and many psychological affects. So i'm reading this book called "A Rumor of War"---gosh the author's name excapes me! ( i always forget the names of the authors) so anyway, here i am reading about his experiences in the vietnam war and feeling sorry for him. When he says that how he and other people that the knows who are vietnam veterns have this "strange" desire to "go back and finish" the war. Go back and finish the war?? Is he kidding me? To him the war was never finished, the U.S. never won, plus it was something personal, more than the U.S. losing. It was him that lost. I was like  :o  Well, to put a long story short, I stoped feeling sorry for the guy! he's still living. I mean he says in there how horrible it was, friends dying, the enemy dying, but yet there's this 'animal' side to him that liked it. uh-uh the brother needs to see a phsychologist. maybe it's one of the symtoms of post-vietnam syndorome, ro realise your animal side wants to return to finish a conflict. disgutsting

Re: The US Troops
panjul
04/03/03 at 01:32:06
[slm] So who wants to kill a "friggin'" Iraqi? Our soldiers! So who wants to send them socks and toothpaste now? anyone still up for it? Not that all are waiting to kill a "friggin'" Iraqi, but who knows they might change thier mind sooner or later? Or what their true intentions really are? Same goes for US Muslim soldiers. While one soldier confided to Franchetti that he was horrified at the civilian toll, other U.S. Marines have taken a different approach to liberating Iraq: "The Iraqis are sick people and we are the chemotherapy," said Corporal Ryan Dupre. "I am starting to hate this country. Wait till I get hold of a friggin' Iraqi. No, I won't get hold of one. I'll just kill him." This article's source for the above quote was an embedded soldier. link to artilce: [url]http://www.antiwar.com/orig/atraqchi3.html[/url]

Re: The US Troops
bhaloo
04/03/03 at 06:00:00
[slm] (According to the BBC, and quoting the Washington Post, there are conflicting reports that the warning shots were fired too late to warn off the van. "You just [expletive] killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot soon enough!" the paper quotes Captain Ronny Johnson as telling his platoon leader.) These damn murderers.   >:(

Re: The US Troops
se7en
04/03/03 at 17:47:40
as salaamu alaykum, A great sign I saw at a peace protest recently was "Support our Troops - Bring them Home".  The average American doesn't want to see their 18 year old son return home in a bodybag.  And yes it is definitely the case that minorities with limited opportunities make up our front lines in the war, and some have turned to the military because their options were limited, not because they felt a great desire to defend American economic interests abroad. I think it's important to understand that it's a small group of people with pervasive power that are influencing people to support this war.  And it's important that we continue to educate people and work within whatever capacity we have to change policy and opinion - and not lose our sense of sensibility and care in the words we use. wasalaamu alaykum.

Re: The US Troops
Dude
04/03/03 at 19:03:36
Why are you guys surprised at this attitude ("Friggen Iraqi")? It's war, and the two sides are enemies. Both sides have been trained to kill the other, and been trained to think the other side is wrong. I'm sure the Iraqis are saying the same thing about the friggen "Kaffirs". I'm not saying this makes it right, just saying you shouldn't be so surprised.

Re: The US Troops
ltcorpest2
04/03/03 at 19:08:16
And yes it is definitely the case that minorities with limited opportunities make up our front lines in the war, and some have turned to the military because their options were limited, not because they felt a great desire to defend American economic interests abroad. That is not what the facts are seven,  The higher percentage of troops that actually see combat are caucasian not minorities.  Even the press reports of soldiers killed show that a majority of those killed are not minorities.  (see other post)

Re: The US Troops
panjul
04/03/03 at 23:29:40
[slm] Dude by a "friggin'" iraqi he was talking not about iraqi soldiers, but about Iraqi *civlians.*

Re: The US Troops
bhaloo
04/04/03 at 00:33:24
[slm] And these are the people that are claiming to "liberate" the Iraqi people.  All the blown up children and women, not to mention the thousands of Muslims killed by the American terrorists must be shown to the world, so people remember the attrocities that America has committed.

Re: The US Troops
ltcorpest2
04/04/03 at 02:45:44
Bhaloo,  as i read this i am watching on TV that Iraqis are welcoming our troops,  so there  are always two or more sides to every coin.  There was a "fatwa" by a shiite cleric exhorting the  Iraqis to help the Americans.  So,  who do I believe?

Re: The US Troops
ltcorpest2
04/04/03 at 02:48:26
Of coure,  i also am hearing from th Iraqi minister of information that we are nowhere near baghdad and that there is no place in Iraq where we are not on the run.

check the sources first.
zomorrud
04/04/03 at 08:07:18
[color=darkblue] [quote]There was a "fatwa" by a shiite cleric exhorting the  Iraqis to help the Americans.  So,  who do I believe? [/quote] mike, believe whichever you want.  this doesn't change the fact any bit that the vast majority of muslim scholars (shias and sunnis) have taken the stance of deligitimizing muslim (individuals and governments) assisstance of coalition forces in the Iraqi war. take care z. check this source. [/color] [color=teal]Al-Sistani Denies Fatwa Not To Resist Invasion Al-Sistani had issued a Fatwa declaring the resistance of invaders “individual duty” imposed on all Muslims, Shia or Sunni By Abdul Raheem Ali, IOL Staff CAIRO, April 4 (IslamOnline.net) - Iraq's most senior religious leader denied a Fatwa Thursday, allegedly issued in his name, urging the country's Shia community not to hinder the U.S. and British invading armies. [/color] [color=darkblue]for the rest of the article, click [/color] [url=http://www.islamonline.net/english/news/2003-04/04/article02.shtml]here[/url].

Re: The US Troops
Dude
04/04/03 at 10:08:47
Interesting article this morning from the  [i]Province[/i] newspaper ( http://www.canada.com/vancouver/theprovince/story.asp?id=278C0086-A2B0-41A6-B7B2-7015CB32A24F ). By all accounts, this is an extremely one-sided affair...I hardly believe this is lost on the troops, but they have their orders. To lump them all together and imply that they are all murderers without consciences is as wrong as Daniel Pipes claiming 10 to 15 percent of Muslims are 'potential killers' (per lala’s post Today at 7:47am). I’m sure the vast majority of these guys want to put their guns down now, and go home. [quote]Oliver Poole       The Daily Telegraph       Friday, April 04, 2003Thick black smoke hung over the outskirts of Baghdad last night as U.S. tanks moved to the edges of the Iraqi capital. The ferocity of the resistance had shocked some of the American troops. Bodies dressed in the uniform of the Republican Guard and burned-out vehicles were strewn around the roadways. Buildings were riddled with bullet holes. "I hope we don't experience anything like that again," Sgt. Simon, 38, said. "It is like the last time [the 1991 Gulf war]. When I see that many bodies, I just don't want to be here any more." As the unit regrouped on a stretch of open land, a U.S. soldier stood looking dazed. "When do we know when it's over?" Sgt. Scott said. "You could have sent two men in to kill Saddam Hussein. Why did we have to kill so many people? There were so many deaths today." In a day of often brutal fighting, forces from the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division destroyed Iraqi units equipped with T-72 tanks and infantry armed with rocket launchers and mortars. Not one American was reported killed. The most vivid impression of the dash for Baghdad was the impassive faces of my three soldier companions as the shell cases cascaded down from the volleys of gunfire. Sgt. Jose Rosa stood half out of his hatch, firing grenades at targets indicated by hand signals from the crew. Staff Sgt. Trey Black sat at the 50-calibre cannon, rotating as he sprayed bursts of rounds. Even the medic in the van behind had a weapon at his shoulder, joining the cacophony of fire. The air was thick with the smell of cordite. Fires burned where targets had been destroyed by artillery fire and air strikes. After two weeks in which the troops had overcome ferocious pockets of resistance, they had finally reached their objective. A tank gunner surveyed the mud-coloured, two-storey buildings at a dusty suburban junction and said: "I don't like the look of it much, but I guess we've arrived." [/quote]
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