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Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
SuperHiMY
04/09/03 at 12:09:14
AsalamAlayKum,          I just hadda type something, somewhere, with/to people who'd feel the same way.         I have been NOT listening to the news. NOT watching TV NEWS, NOT         reading arabnews.com nor yellowtimes.org not english.aljazeera.net or the paper.         I have been too busy with helping organize the ArtistsAgainstWar Peace Festival,         this saturday april 12 at Toronto's City Hall...         But My mom turned on the TV and I haven't said a word to her to ask her to shut it off.          (Remember that hadith about not '...even uttering 'uff' to one's mother...'        I am not happy.        I am sad.       I needed to type this out [i]somewhere[/i].    Jannah.org is that somewhere...           I recall a poem that Afzal Imam, a Bihari Poet and best friend of my dad,       long ago uttered the following poem during Gulf War 1991,          'Oh Allah, since I have opened my eyes, All I have seen is defeat'.       Meaning, ever since he was born, he has only seen Defeat of the Muslims,.           ...Now I am starting to get angry too.        Salam, (arabic for Peace, how ironic)        [sub]himy[/sub]

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
UmmWafi
04/09/03 at 12:15:23
[slm] From a sister to a brother, I can only offer you a du'a that Allah Will Place Peace and Strength and Love in you for Him and His Creations.  Amin. Keep the faith. Wassalam

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
Maliha
04/09/03 at 12:24:04
[slm] Don't be sad. Keep doing what you are doing. The only thing to do now is to channel our anger/frustration/sense of defeat into action. Remember the Seerah? Think about how much more the Rasul  [saw] had to overcome! When even his family turned from him, when they were persecuted, when he lost his dearest uncle and beloved wife, when he was stoned in Taif, and had to face a battle while they were still weak and outnumbered. :'( Reading his  [saw] seerah, infuses me with some hope. Knowing that no matter what we are *not* the losers. May Allah help us and guide us all....it is a depressing time  :'( Sis, Maliha [wlm]

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
ltcorpest2
04/09/03 at 12:27:31
now, if the war is over by this weekend,  then do you think you will get a big reception?  I do not think this is a defeat of muslims at all.  I saw muslims on the street celebrating,  maybe in other countries besides the ones who gained their freedom they are not celebrating, but it is muslims nonetheless.  I celebrate with them.

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
Maliha
04/09/03 at 12:40:20
[slm] What's there to celebrate? The deaths of thousands of Iraqis? The destruction of their homes, bridges, buildings, shops, infrastructure? The fact that they may be occupied for God Knows how long till the US can clean up its mess, and its oil? What's there to celebrate? No more bloodshed? You really think this is going to be a clean break? All those people that lost their families in this senseless war would not revolt? You think *they* are celebrating? The deaths of their mothers, fathers, the amputation of their limbs? Wow.... these are interesting times indeed. Maliha.

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
humble_muslim
04/09/03 at 12:47:05
AA [Some people] are just SO blind to the suffering this war has caused and will continue to cause. Words simply cannot express my dismay at the extent that [they] have been brainwashed by all this crap. I will repeat, if  [their] family had been blown to smithereens in front of your eyes, [they] would NOT be celebrating right now. But of course that's the difference between [them] and us : to us, EVERY muslim is our brother or sister, while the same obviously does not apply to [them] . So the boy who lost his family and had his arms blown off, he is like my own son or brother, and NOTHING can ever make up for the suffering he has suffered. And before you go on about how Saddam was doing the same thing to his own people, I WAS MAKING THIS POINT 15 years ago while the USA was supporting Saddam. [Edited by Admin: Let's keep things nonpersonal.]
NS
04/10/03 at 00:07:05
jannah

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
Sabr
04/09/03 at 12:55:16
[slm] My dear brother…..I know how you feel. :'( I keep seeing the image of Ali – the little boy with no arms and feel the tears stinging my eyes.  But as sister Maliha has put it we must reflect upon the seera and the trials and afflictions endured by the prophet [saw] and the companions I recall the following hadith transmitted  Sahih Bukhari] Seek help from Allah when in need, seek refuge with Him during afflictions, supplicate, and call upon Him, for Dua is the gist of prayer.  No believer calls upon Allah unless his call is answered in the following ways: 1.      Either his request is granted in this world. 2.      Or he will receive it in the Hereafter. 3.      Or his sins will be concealed to the extent of his Dua, providing that he has not asked for a sinful act.” Sis Sabr

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
ltcorpest2
04/09/03 at 13:01:08
maliha,  Can you tell me then ,  What were the Iraqis doing in the streets celebrating?  They were there for a reason.  Sure many many peoples lives are affected and for that I grieve. [Edited by Admin]
04/10/03 at 00:08:04
jannah

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
tq
04/09/03 at 13:13:25
Assalamo elikuim It is indeed a sad day or may be we are living in the saddest times. I was talking to my husband about why didnt any Muslim country or Muslims over threw Saddam? Why didnt Muslims helped ? But my husband said that if any Muslim country would have done what USA have, they would have been breaking the UN resolution and would have been attacked by the whole world! It seems so confusing -Is it a good thing that Saddam is gone and US is there ? I think it is for people who were totured by Saddam ? But what about hte people who have been killed,maimed in this "shock and awe" bombing ? Wasnt there another way to end Saddam's regime? I guess I am sad/confused/sad.  As a Muslim what is our duty? is praying  enough, (since we have to be extra extra careful in giving charity) ? It is sad that one after another Muslim country is being attack. I read somewhere that US has given a warning to Syria , Iran and Korea to learn a lesson from Iraq. I guess the only thing we can do is pray.  May Allah swt bless us Muslims with Imaan,taqwa, AMeen. Wasalam tq

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
Dude
04/09/03 at 13:41:00
I’m confused…what’s the problem here? Isn’t it OK to grieve for the innocent dead or badly injured, while at the same time being happy for the celebrating Iraqis who are clearly jubilant that Saddam has been effectively removed from power? By saying one is happy for their happiness, that doesn’t mean that the same person endorses the extreme measures the US took. I completely disagree with the measures the Yanks took, but at the same time, how can you not feel happy for these people who are celebrating? We’re here, they are there…we have no idea what they’ve gone through, or what they’re feeling now. Besides, as Mike’s history suggests, he may have the closest possible connection to this to compare than anyone on these boards. Unless you have lived through similar circumstances, it’s tough to imagine how those people are feeling, isn’t it? Humble Muslim…I don’t know if you’ve lived through similar dictatorship regimes (directly, not in spirit)…you may have, I don’t know…but Mike is giving his perspective from an experienced viewpoint. This isn’t an anti-Muslim thing at all, from what I can see. I see him as being sincerely happy for those people. Is that a bad thing? Heck…my biggest life’s tragedy doesn’t come close to what the people of Iraq have had to live through. I don’t like what the US did, or how they did it. I hate the fact that so many innocent died or are maimed needlessly. But, it’s done now. If this war is indeed coming to an end, and the citizens of Iraq are celebrating the removal of Saddam’s reign of terror, let’s be happy for those people, while still mourning the losses and questioning the method. God bless Iraq.

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
Maliha
04/09/03 at 13:42:52
[quote author=mike aka ltcorpest2 link=board=ummah;num=1049904555;start=0#7 date=04/09/03 at 13:01:08] maliha,  Can you tell me then ,  What were the Iraqis doing in the streets celebrating?  They were there for a reason.  Sure many many peoples lives are affected and for that I grieve. [/quote] The people were celebrating the Fall of Saddam. They had lived in years under his regime and weren't happy. If the US intervention didn't occur in 1991 Saddam would have been toppled then (read up on this..its highly documented). In Kenya, when the British left, Kenyans were jubilant, celebrating on the streets etc. Little did they know they would have one despotic regime after another taking over. Moi (the last president), his rule lasted a good 24 years! Do you think people didn't celebrate when he left? They did. But who knows what the future holds? You really think they would continue celebrating when an American general takes over Iraq? The US has something else coming to them, if that's their expectation. Here's a little excerpt online showing some people aren't too thrilled: Some Iraqis happy, others indignant about troops (Baghdad, Iraq-AP) -- While some Baghdad residents are welcoming U-S troops, others want to see the Americans leave. People in the Iraqi capital are celebrating -- and looting -- in the city as more U-S forces roll in. There's no apparent sign of any top Iraqi officials, or any kind of government or military presence. One man says ``everyone must go one day -- even prophets die.'' He says people are relieved because they've lived in ``anxiety and fear'' for years. But a local store owner says the Iraqis will never allow the Americans to stay. He says whatever Saddam Hussein has done, he's still a Muslim. The man adds, ``and we are a Muslim nation.'' An Iraqi laborer says ``Iraq is our country,'' and calls what's happening ``the destruction of Islam.'' He also says Iraqi women and children have been killed in allied airstrikes.

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
lightningatnite
04/09/03 at 13:49:27
[slm] Towheed al-ruboobiyyah.  Whatever Allah wills, will be.  Whatever Allah does not will, will not be.  The world is an instrument in Allah's Hands.

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
Sabr
04/09/03 at 13:50:54
Ah yes MIKE they are celebrating freedom,,,,,!!  :o Freedom from More Bombs dropping on them !!! Freedom from so called Precision guided weapons mistakenly hitting their homes!? ??? Freedom from Shock and Awe Military Action (US pride and joy)!! Freedom from losing their mothers, wives, sons, daughter, fathers at the hands of the allies  !! :'( Freedom from the basic necessities of life ! Freedom from using their limbs (remember Ali the boy with no arms..Ah yes he has a name !?) :'( Freedom from the psychological torment that will last their lifetime?! Would you like me to continue!!!! That?s real liberation huh????  >:( >:( [Edited by Admin]
04/10/03 at 00:09:15
jannah

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
theOriginal
04/09/03 at 14:06:37
[slm] It feels like someone is choking me. Everytime someone says something, whether it be pro-American or anti-American, pro-peace or pro-war, anti-Muslim, anti-human, anti-anything!!! I feel like there is some big bad bully, who has his fingers neatly wrappd around my throat who is silently strengthening his grip.   Needless to say, I don't know what's right and I sure don't know what's wrong, I just pray that Allah swt grants all of us the Taufeeq to understand the difference.   Not only do I feel isolated from (as the humble muslim so nicely put it) my "family" in Iraq, I feel like the most wretched human being alive.   And I doubt that any true muslim on the planet is celebrating anything right now, be it so-called liberation or much else.  I wish we could personally speak to the people who are jumping up and down and ask them how they truly feel. I'm sad too. Wasalaam.

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
WhatDFish
04/09/03 at 14:07:15
bush and blair and all those who are in this attack and those who are supporting this oppression will be "shocked and awed" on the Day of Judgement where the the only power will be the Power of Allah and His ultimate Justice will prevail. Al Mulku yau ma i'dhi nil Haqqu lirRahmaan; wa kaana yau man `alal kaafireena `aseera. The Sovereignty on that Day will be the true(sovereignty), belonging to the Most Gracious; and it will be a hard day for the disbelievers. translation of verse 26 of Surah al Furqan of the Holy Qur'an
04/09/03 at 14:29:22
WhatDFish

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
humble_muslim
04/09/03 at 14:11:34
AA I am also sad at what this means to the US in terms of celebration.  Because it now means : 1. They can celebrate over the overwhelming superiority of their weapons of mass destruction. Without doubt, the most destructive in the world. 2. They can celebrate the fact that they can now tell the UN to take a hike anytime it suits them. 3. They can now celebrate the fact that collatreal damage (i.e murdering people you have nothing against, and who have nothing against you) is now acceptable. 4. They can celebrate the fact that they can now tell ANY country in the entire world (with the exception of Russia, China and N. Korea) to look at Iraq as an example. 5. They can celebrate the fact that no country is ready to take them on. 6. They can celebrate the fact that they can now continue to take on Iran, Syria, etc., with no-one or nothing to stop them. 7. They can celebrate the fact that it is ok to murder journalists in cold blood and get away with it. 8. They can celebrate the fact that they can blind their own people with blatant lies and propoganda. So my heartiest congratulations to the USA. Long may you celeberate ...
NS

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
ltcorpest2
04/09/03 at 14:13:55
Posted by: Sabr Posted on: Today at 1:50pm Freedom from More Bombs dropping on them !!! Freedom from so called Precision guided weapons mistakenly hitting their homes!?   Freedom from Shock and Awe Military Action (US pride and joy)!! Freedom from losing their mothers, wives, sons, daughter, fathers at the hands of the allies  !!   Freedom from the basic necessities of life ! Freedom from using their limbs (remember Ali the boy with no arms..Ah yes he has a name !?)   Freedom from the psychological torment that will last their lifetime?! Would you like me to continue!!!! That?s real liberation huh?     But if we take an example from history  lets say france.  during ww2  They had many many people bombed and killed and maimed.  Fighting lasted for years there before they got thier liberation.  Was it worth the cost?  maybe yes maybe no according to your scenario.  but they celebrated when the Germans were defeated.  Should they have celebrated?  Do all Iraqis feel the same?  probably not.  some are happy, some are frustrated, some are sad.  But I think that a vast majority are at least thankful that Saddam is gone.  Let's pray that the Iraqis have a better day coming. [Edited by Admin]
04/10/03 at 00:10:58
jannah

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
humble_muslim
04/09/03 at 14:29:01
AA Mike, Your example does NOT make sense because the Allies did not kill French civilians, the Germans did.  In this case, the "liberators" have been the murderers as well. How many Anti British non-combatants did Washington kill to give America freedom ? None. How many anti Saddam non-combatants did Bush kill to give Iraq freedom ? A few more than Washington.
NS

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
lightningatnite
04/09/03 at 14:37:01
One entry found for agent provocateur. [quote] Main Entry: agent pro·vo·ca·teur   Pronunciation: 'ä-"zhän-prO-"vä-k&-'t&r, 'A-j&nt- Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural agents provocateurs  /'ä-"zhän-prO-"vä-k&-'t&r, 'A-j&n(t)s-prO-/ Etymology: French, literally, provoking agent Date: 1877 : one employed to associate with suspected persons and by pretending sympathy with their aims to incite them to some incriminating action [/quote] [slm] Brothers and sisters, please don't waste too much time arguing needlessly over issues that are quite clear.  Most Americans are appalled by what the US has done over the course of the last year.  There are thousands of Americans who are willing to reach their hands out and help us.  But we cannot waste our time arguing with people. I've seen a lot of non-Muslims come and start arguments with Muslims, and us naive Muslims arguing with all our hearts as if the honor of our religion is at risk, getting so angry and upset.  We cannot be so naive.   If someone comes to you with an open heart, we should try our best to teach them.  But at times like this, its best to reflect on our condition, not the Ummah's condition, but the condition of our hearts.  We need to relect on our shortcomings and our relationship with our Creator. Dr. Ingrid Mattson gave an awesome talk on the Shariah last week, and at one point towards the end, a person came up quoting verses from the Qur'an attacking her.  She kept her cool, answered with a deeply intellectual answer [in se7en's words, she SLAMMED him], and thats it.  Of course he tried to argue and provoke.  She just kept quiet, and the moderator made him sit down.  He must have been so embarassed. The problem is when we become emotional (insulting sometimes results), we've already become defeated.  Thats their goal...to get us angry.   [quote] 41. Khabbab bin Al-Aratt (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: We complained to the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) regarding the persecution inflicted upon us by the disbelievers while he was lying in the shade of the Ka`bah, having made a pillow of his cloak. We submitted: "Why do you not supplicate for our prevalence (over the opponents)?''. He (PBUH) replied, "Among those people before you, a man would be seized and held in a pit dug for him in the ground and he would be sawed into two halves from his head, and his flesh torn away from his bones with an iron comb; but, in spite of this, he would not wean away from his Faith. By Allah, Allah will bring this matter to its consummation until a rider will travel from San`a' to Hadramout fearing none except Allah, and except the wolf for his sheep, but you are in too much of a hurry". [Al-Bukhari]. Commentary: Difficulties in the path of  Faith do not come in any particular period. People devoted to their Deen have passed through trials and tribulations everywhere and in every age and have emerged purified as does the gold after passing through the furnace. So, it is unbecoming for a Muslim to be disturbed by hardships. [/quote]

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
jannah
04/09/03 at 16:00:13
Mike and Dude, I think that we should have some respect for a fellow poster who said that this is 'the saddest day in his life' instead of posting about how "no it isn't'. Let's support each other instead of having this wall between us as people.

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
SuperHiMY
04/09/03 at 16:04:09
WalayKumSalam, WalayKumHi, and WalayKum,               I left my apartment moments after posting the message that began               this thread.  I just could not listen to the T.V. any more, even if it                as Peter Jennings on ABC TV from the Buffalo station we're able               to get here in Toronto.                I decided to go buy the balloons I needed for the Peace Festival                at the muslim-owned dollar store at the 20 minute-away-walk                Dufferin Mall.                Halfway there, just past the muslim-owned V.I.P dry cleaning                and tailor shop, something happenad to me that happen to me                12 years ago.                 After Maghrib on Jan 15th, 1991, My dad said to shut off the TV                 as he left the room and went into what our family called the 'board room'.                 I still hadda buy the milk. I left and walked the 12 minutes to the                  muslim-owned variety-convenience store, by passsing non-muslim                owned grocery stores. When I got there, it was closed.                The brother's store was never closed. But I understood why, he probably                felt as sad as I did at that time.                I decided to go back home without the milk, then recalled that the                 7-11 had just been taken over by muslims who by their behaviour,                 I can guess were only nominal in their observance of Islam.                Nevertheless, they were muslim. I went in their store and brought                 the milk to the cash counter.                He rings up $4.99.                        !?                 Even today, 12 years later, Milk is STILL much less than five bucks.              I complained, he said that's the price.               I returned the milk to the freezer, walked out of the store and then it happened.             All the life, all the energy just left my legs. As if I had no legs,             I fell down and ended up sitting on the wooden 6 inch wide divider between             the 7-11 parking and the sidewalk on the west side of Dufferin Avenue.            Here I was trying to keep money within the muslim community, and this            brother was price gouging the neighbourhood.            When I finally got enough energy to get up and walk home, I simply answered            my dad's question about the milk that I couldn't get it.            Today, halfway to the Mall, same thing, I hadda bend my knews, hold the            fence and not sit on the snow, though melting, there's snow all over toronto            at the moment.            A passerby asked if I needed help and was I okay?            I said I'm okay, I don'tneed hlp but thank you for asking.            It's like my heart was broken.            Eventually I found myself eating some junk food, which I never do,            in the mall's food court, and right in front of me were three of those             kiddie rides where you put in some change, and it moves for a minute or two.            I kept seeing muslims in Hijabs, and hubbies with their families and wives in hijabs.           The muslim family had taken over this kiddie ride area of the food court.           These two children, maybe 3 years old, boy and girl, started jumping in and out            of the fire truck, then the dump truck, then back to fire truck.           They have no clue what's goin on.          I recalled for the smallest of moments when Omar, may Allah be pleased with him,          personally took food from the public storehouse and delivered it to a poor          widowed mother on the outskirts of Madinah.          After the children were fed, they began to play like normal well fed children do,          When asked why Omar was smiling, he responded that he felt sad when he          saw the same children hungry earlier, now he wanted to feel happy by watching          them play.          I interrupted the lunch of one of the mom's who son it was that was pretending         to drive the dump truck, telling her about how sad I felt earlier, but watching         her son right now, I felt better--somehow.          She confided she was very grateful that her son was young enough NOT to          understand what was going on in the world, because she doesn't know what          she'd tell him.          Maybe Allah, Glorified and Praised be He, heard your prayers/ duas for this          marose brother and answered then....         IF Makkah and Madinah are the Spiritual Heart of Islam, then         it is Jerusalem  and Baghdad which are the physical manifestation of that Spirit.         Today I am a Human,         Today I am a Muslim,         Today I am an Iraqi,         And Today I was violated.         April 9 2003. 4:01 pm                [sub]HiMY[/sub]

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
sofia
04/09/03 at 17:44:45
As-salaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullaah, Whoa. That's deep. ***Quick modification that I forgot to add before: For all of you who feel pain when you see what's happening in the world, alhamdulillaah, that's huge. It wasn't long ago when murder (even fake murder) was rarely ever seen in public (in Islaamic countries, it's unlawful to see someone put to death, let alone kill someone. The only time the public can witness it is as a deterrant related to capital punishment). It wasn't long ago when seeing a baby with missing body parts was too much. Now we watch while eating dinner. Too many of us have become desensitized, an apathetic, useless being. So alhamdulillah, you are not one of them, inshaa'Allaah.*** I was just telling a friend that the general worldwide Muslim community is currently (if not already) facing an epidemic, presenting signs of minor and/or major depression these days (ex/ no interest in doing things, feeling sad and tired, etc). Not so much a "giving up," as it is like...like something that can hardly be described. And it's not something a little Prozac will fix. Dhikr [remembrance in God], du'aa [supplications] and continuing to take action is the best medicine, Allaahu A'lim. I've been hearing it a lot, but it makes more and more sense. This life is not for the believer. But we don't give up. If we're told to continue planting when the major signs of the Last Days appear, we should be able to get through this calamity, inshaa'Allaah. Prophet Muhammad (S) said: "It was the duty of every Prophet that has gone before me to guide his followers to what he knew was good for them and warn them against what he knew was bad for them; but this Ummah of yours has its days of peace and (security) in the beginning of its career, and in the last phase of its existence it will be afflicted with trials and with things disagreeable to you. (In this phase of the Ummah), there will be tremendous trials one after the other, each making the previous one dwindle into insignificance. When they would be afflicted with a trial, the believer would say: This is going to bring about my destruction. When at (the trial) is over, they would be afflicted with another trial, and the believer would say: This surely is going to be my end. Whoever wishes to be delivered from the fire and enter the garden should die with faith in Allaah and the Last Day and should treat the people as he wishes to be treated by them..." Related by Muslim. Btw--the du'aa of the oppressed are answered, by their sincerity, their humility, and I'm forgetting the rest (if someone remembers, let us know, iA. I should know this, considering a local imam repeats this hadith often).
NS
04/10/03 at 15:28:59
sofia

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
Dude
04/09/03 at 17:49:18
Janna, You assume that Mike & I aren't hurting by this while everyone else is. I can't speak for him, but that assumption couldn't be further from the truth for me. I was actually sticking up for him, because others went well over the line in criticizing his posts...even attacking his morals. They belittled him, and slandered him just because he expressed that he through his personal experiences, he has felt similar jubilation. Why aren't those posters given warnings? Their replies to him (The humble muslim & Sabr) were simply way out of line. It seems some of us can’t even grieve along with you all without being jumped. Back on topic: HiMy's post is heart warming. I've been turning off the TV a lot lately, and just walking over to one of the kids to give them a hug. I don't think I've knocked off work so early so often in the last little while, just so I can take Mini Dude outside to play road hockey, or to the park to play in the playground. Innocence is bliss...it's really sad to know that some of those children the same age as my kids have only known hate, destruction, and despair their whole lives.
04/09/03 at 19:09:06
Dude

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
jannah
04/09/03 at 18:07:05
[slm] Dude thanks for your post. I'm really quite surprised you say you are grieving as well.  I'd ask all the participants in this thread to go back and edit their posts out of respect for each other. The emotions here are overwhelming. Himy your post is very touching. I always remind myself that justice is not always perceivable in this life, but will be apparent in the next. The trials and tribulations and injustice we see are trials and purification for us all. In the US I see the trial of 9/11 as a warning for us Muslims who were becoming too comfortable living a certain way and also a purification for the Muslims in the US. Where exactly do they stand, are they Muslim or not? As one brother said.. the enemies of Islam came out publically, the hypocrites fell away and the Muslims that were strong in faith still are. As for the situation in Iraq, I really feel that this is not a trial but a punishment, w'Allahu alam. For so long we've been lost and commiting wrongs to others and the world and forgotten Allah. This should be a time of repentance and return. May Allah forgive us all and return us to His path. Ameen.
04/09/03 at 18:09:07
jannah

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
BroHanif
04/09/03 at 19:07:33
Salaams, In times like this we should take account of our ownselves. We truly have forgotten Allah, yet Allahs wisdom is something we can not comprehend. Saddam no doubt was a despot like so mnay others in the Mid East and around the world. We are angry and I guess emotionally struck because we had so much coverage of the media non stop, yet would we be different if there was no coverage?, sadly I guess so. If we take a look at the Mid East, a lot of people are being oppressed by the regimes, be it Saudi Arabia, Dubai or Libya they are all despots. People can not practice Islaam with their hearts and insha-allah I hope that a fair government is introduced in Iraq. One that does not steal the public coffers, nor hangs people in the streets for speaking against the government. For too long some people have been oppressed, while others have been  living comfortably and not lifting an eyelid while this oppression goes on. If we did have real Muslim unity we would have declared war on Saddam and his regimes some time ago and then start on the next despot. Yet our weakness let us down I guess it our own fault and our own doing. Lets hope we can keep this energy going, otherwise I guess will have this same conversation around when they attack Syria or Iran. May the coming storm be easy on the whole world. Salaams Hanif
NS

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
a_Silver_Rose
04/09/03 at 19:43:21
[wlm] [quote]Salaams, In times like this we should take account of our ownselves. We truly have forgotten Allah, yet Allahs wisdom is something we can not comprehend. Saddam no doubt was a despot like so mnay others in the Mid East and around the world. We are angry and I guess emotionally struck because we had so much coverage of the media non stop, yet would we be different if there was no coverage?, sadly I guess so.   If we take a look at the Mid East, a lot of people are being oppressed by the regimes, be it Saudi Arabia, Dubai or Libya they are all despots. People can not practice Islaam with their hearts and insha-allah I hope that a fair government is introduced in Iraq. One that does not steal the public coffers, nor hangs people in the streets for speaking against the government.   For too long some people have been oppressed, while others have been  living comfortably and not lifting an eyelid while this oppression goes on. If we did have real Muslim unity we would have declared war on Saddam and his regimes some time ago and then start on the next despot. Yet our weakness let us down I guess it our own fault and our own doing. Lets hope we can keep this energy going, otherwise I guess will have this same conversation around when they attack Syria or Iran. May the coming storm be easy on the whole world. Salaams Hanif [/quote] Alhumdulilah! some very good points..I couldnt agree with you more Hanif Uncle.

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
ltcorpest2
04/09/03 at 20:08:59
Uncle Hanif,  wtg.  always a thought provoking and wise response.  But with one little complaint. While it is great to be an Uncle, I wish Abu Fatimah will make a comeback.

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
bhaloo
04/09/03 at 21:05:15
[slm] The US is the one that helped put Saddam into power (see the Eric Magolis article, "No Faith in US Foreign Policy") that I put up a few months back.   What is there to rejoice in?  In the kafirs attacking and killing thousands of  Muslims?  This is something to rejoice about?  EVERY single Muslim should have condemned the attack of the kafirs against the Muslims in Iraq and we should have prayed for the Muslims.   The manner in which evil rulers are to be removed from power can be illustrated here in the opinion of SHeikh Munajjid: Question: There are people who think that because some of the rulers commit acts of kufr and sin, we are obliged to rebel against them and attempt to change things even if that results in harming the Muslims in that country, at a time when there are many problems in the Muslim world. What is your opinion? Answer: Praise be to Allaah. The basic comprehensive principle of sharee’ah is that it is not permitted to remove an evil by means of a greater evil; evil must be warded off by that which will remove it or reduce it. Warding off evil by means of a greater evil is not permitted according to the scholarly consensus (ijmaa’) of the Muslims. If this group which wants to get rid of this ruler who is openly committing kufr is able to do so, and can bring in a good and righteous leader without that leading to greater trouble for the Muslims or a greater evil than the evil of this ruler, then that is OK. But if rebellion would result in greater trouble and lead to chaos, oppression and the assassination of people who do not deserve to be assassinated, and other forms of major evil, then that is not permitted. Rather it is essential to be patient and to hear and obey in matters of good, and to offer sincere advice to the authorities, and to pray that they may be guided to good, and to strive to reduce evil and increase good. This is the correct way which should be followed, because that is in the general interests of the Muslims, and because it will reduce evil and increase good, and because this will keep the peace and protect the Muslims from a greater evil. ;=============================================== [quote] Besides, as Mike’s history suggests, he may have the closest possible connection to this to compare than anyone on these boards. Unless you have lived through similar circumstances, it’s tough to imagine how those people are feeling, isn’t it? [/quote] Mike's opinion means nothing at ALL from an Islamic standpoint.  He is not even a Muslim.  As for "those people", those people are my brothers and sisters.

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
paula
04/09/03 at 21:41:10
[slm] [size=3][font=Book Antiqua][color=Navy]Bi'ithnillah........... Wow Brother Himy... the posts say it right........ your expressions were definitely heartfelt... with maybe a tear drop or two..........Jazak Allahu Khairan I believe Jannah stated it so well... another key: [quote]I always remind myself that justice is not always perceivable in this life, but will be apparent in the next. The trials and tribulations and injustice we see are trials and purification for us all.  [/quote] As well, Brother Bhaloo often takes us to the same points through another approach.... I smile so often when he does it... although I sometimes ponder how many readers may have felt lost in the journey, or abandonded ship along the way.  And then I fear not, those to prevail have placed their trust in Allah(swt). There are some really really beautiful things coming out of this site Jannah..... Allahu Alam...... Allahu Akbar As for Uncle Hanif......... doesn't he often give a smile to the heart with his means of expression Sister Crazy4Islam & Brother Mike.... both took the words out of my mouth: [quote]Alhumdulilah! some very good points..I couldnt agree with you more Hanif Uncle. [/quote] [quote]Uncle Hanif,  wtg.  always a thought provoking and wise response.  [/quote] Sister Sofia... you add so much beautiful information to all of these threads.... My heart smiles every time I read your name... because I know there's Great stuff to follow. And last but not least my final admiration here: Brother lightningatnite; Nice, very very nice. "clear", "calm", & "rich with substance"......... "delivered with a beautiful simplicity". ...... I cannot imagine anyone taking time here at Madina(t) and not leaving with their heart aglow Many prayers here Jannah...... for the overwhelming role you must have now, with the increasing richness of the content of this site....... along with prayers of thankfulness for providing us with this Safe Haven under the theme of Islam by the grace of Allah (swt)....... Ameen [/color][/font][/size] [wlm]
04/10/03 at 00:11:31
paula

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
deenb4dunya
04/09/03 at 21:43:54
Simply_Sister... you expressed exactly what I've been feeling in most beautiful words. Jazaakillaahi Khayran. And May Allaah SWT bless, forgive and draw nearer every individual who has aided me on my path. A heartfelt Jazaakumullaahu Khayran. Deen :-)
04/09/03 at 21:45:18
deenb4dunya

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
ltcorpest2
04/09/03 at 22:05:46
I have to totally agree with bhaloo,  my opinion does mean nothing at all from an islamic point of view.  I will have to read very carefull though  to find out who was making that claim though

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
SuperHiMY
04/09/03 at 23:04:52
AsalamAlayKum,          I don't know what kind of a day it would have been had I NOT posted and begun          this thread earlier today...          Due to my laziness, I never re-installed my blog on my himy.org website, hence          this thread, today, ofall days became like my weblog, thanks Jannah.org for letting           HiMY mooch off the board.         I just got back from the Toronto 'Coalition to Stop The War' bi-weekly Wednesday         meeting. Alhumdulillah that by default and accident, though of course it was          Our Creator's, Allah Glorified and Praised be He, that allowed what took place.         The main organizer for ArtistsAgainstWar was not contacted that the meeting          venue had changed, and since AAW is having the Peace Festival THIS saturday,          April 12, at Toronto's City Hall Square, It was the first item on the agenda.          I, being the only muslim in the AAW group in the first place, ended up speaking          and reporting to the Coalition on behalf of the Artists.         That was unexpected, and for some reason, sitting there with my Kufi, speaking         I was completely at ease, no stress, no hurry, Only Allah could have allowed me         that permission to speak and do the Q & A.         There is such widespread support for the Muslim and Arab community within         Toronto at the moment, but at times it does not feel that way. LIke when I'm dumb         enough to listen to the TV.         I even ended ...         ( alhumdulillah, I finally was able to confirm that the one table I booked as a            'muslim' information / vendor table in the last few minutes. She's a muslim             student sister from Turkey who wants to sell stuff and then send the money             to Iraq. I'm talking about the PeaceFestival again of course, In talking on the             phone, she explained to me about 'Hijab in Turkey'. She said to ENTER A             LIBRARY in TURKEY, ALL WOMEN HAVE TO REMOVE THEIR HIJAB.             She said that muslim sisters in Canada don't understand how good they have it             here and don't appreciate that Islam is NOT just handing out a phamphet and             calling it a day. Well, How could I argue? I had thought I'd give her half the              table... nyah, Allah SWT guided her to the Peace Festival. She gets the full table.             She reminded me of how difficult it is to a muslim woman in Turkey.... )         I even ended ...up learning that the Coalition wanted to sponsor an ad in         Friday's 'Metro' Commuter Newspaper which millions of people see, to         better publicize the PeaceFestival....         Qur'an reminds us that '...With every hardship there is Ease...'         U.S. President George Walker Bush is scheduled to arrive in Ottawa for         a visit on May 4-5.          The coalition is sponsoring round trip buses to go defend what is right and          denounce what is wrong to Messrs Bush and Chretien.         Then in the meeting I learned that the Coalition to the Stop the war is         trying to get Michael Moore to speak up in Ottawa on that day....         and What do I read ont he ArtistsAgainstWar ListServ just before I began this 'blog'         entry? Subject: My Oscar "Backlash": "Stupid White Men" Back At #1, "Bowling" Breaks New Records Date: Mon, Apr 7, 2003, 6:41 PM Michael Moore writes: My Oscar "Backlash": "Stupid White Men" Back At #1, "Bowling" Breaks New Records April 7, 2003 Dear friends, It appears that the Bush administration will have succeeded in colonizing Iraq sometime in the next few days. This is a blunder of such magnitude -- and we will pay for it for years to come. It was not worth the life of one single American kid in uniform, let alone the thousands of Iraqis who have died, and my condolences and prayers go out to all of them. So, where are all those weapons of mass destruction that were the pretense for this war? Ha! There is so much to say about all this, but I will save it for later. What I am most concerned about right now is that all of you -- the majority of Americans who did not support this war in the first place -- not go silent or be intimidated by what will be touted as some great military victory. Now, more than ever, the voices of peace and truth must be heard. I have received a lot of mail from people who are feeling a profound sense of despair and believe that their voices have been drowned out by the drums and bombs of false patriotism. Some are afraid of retaliation at work or at school or in their neighborhoods because they have been vocal proponents of peace. They have been told over and over that it is not "appropriate" to protest once the country is at war, and that your only duty now is to "support the troops." Can I share with you what it's been like for me since I used my time on the Oscar stage two weeks ago to speak out against Bush and this war? I hope that, in reading what I'm about to tell you, you'll feel a bit more emboldened to make your voice heard in whatever way or forum that is open to you. When "Bowling for Columbine" was announced as the Oscar winner for Best Documentary at the Academy Awards, the audience rose to its feet. It was a great moment, one that I will always cherish. They were standing and cheering for a film that says we Americans are a uniquely violent people, using our massive stash of guns to kill each other and to use them against many countries around the world. They were applauding a film that shows George W. Bush using fictitious fears to frighten the public into giving him whatever he wants. And they were honoring a film that states the following: The first Gulf War was an attempt to reinstall the dictator of Kuwait; Saddam Hussein was armed with weapons from the United States; and the American government is responsible for the deaths of a half-million children in Iraq over the past decade through its sanctions and bombing. That was the movie they were cheering, that was the movie they voted for, and so I decided that is what I should acknowledge in my speech. And, thus, I said the following from the Oscar stage: "On behalf of our producers Kathleen Glynn and Michael Donovan (from Canada), I would like to thank the Academy for this award. I have invited the other Documentary nominees on stage with me. They are here in solidarity because we like non-fiction. We like non-fiction because we live in fictitious times. We live in a time where fictitious election results give us a fictitious president. We are now fighting a war for fictitious reasons. Whether it's the fiction of duct tape or the fictitious 'Orange Alerts,' we are against this war, Mr. Bush. Shame on you, Mr. Bush, shame on you. And, whenever you've got the Pope and the Dixie Chicks against you, you're time is up." Halfway through my remarks, some in the audience started to cheer. That immediately set off a group of people in the balcony who started to boo. Then those supporting my remarks started to shout down the booers. The L. A. Times reported that the director of the show started screaming at the orchestra "Music! Music!" in order to cut me off, so the band dutifully struck up a tune and my time was up. (For more on why I said what I said, you can read the op-ed I wrote for the L.A. Times, plus other reaction from around the country at my website www.michaelmoore.com) The next day -- and in the two weeks since -- the right-wing pundits and radio shock jocks have been calling for my head. So, has all this ruckus hurt me? Have they succeeded in "silencing" me? Well, take a look at my Oscar "backlash": -- On the day after I criticized Bush and the war at the Academy Awards, attendance at "Bowling for Columbine" in theaters around the country went up 110% (source: Daily Variety/BoxOfficeMojo.com). The following weekend, the box office gross was up a whopping 73% (Variety). It is now the longest-running consecutive commercial release in America, 26 weeks in a row and still thriving. The number of theaters showing the film since the Oscars has INCREASED, and it has now bested the previous box office record for a documentary by nearly 300%. -- Yesterday (April 6), "Stupid White Men" shot back to #1 on the New York Times bestseller list. This is my book's 50th week on the list, 8 of them at number one, and this marks its fourth return to the top position, something that virtually never happens. --  In the week after the Oscars, my website was getting 10-20 million hits A DAY (one day we even got more hits than the White House!). The mail has been overwhelmingly positive and supportive (and the hate mail has been hilarious!). -- In the two days following the Oscars, more people pre-ordered the video for "Bowling for Columbine" on Amazon.com than the video for the Oscar winner for Best Picture, "Chicago". -- In the past week, I have obtained funding for my next documentary, and I have been offered a slot back on television to do an updated version of "TV Nation"/ "The Awful Truth." I tell you all of this because I want to counteract a message that is told to us all the time -- that, if you take a chance to speak out politically, you will live to regret it. It will hurt you in some way, usually financially. You could lose your job. Others may not hire you. You will lose friends. And on and on and on. Take the Dixie Chicks. I'm sure you've all heard by now that, because their lead singer mentioned how she was ashamed that Bush was from her home state of Texas, their record sales have "plummeted" and country stations are boycotting their music. The truth is that their sales are NOT down. This week, after all the attacks, their album is still at #1 on the Billboard country charts and, according to Entertainment Weekly, on the pop charts during all the brouhaha, they ROSE from #6 to #4. In the New York Times, Frank Rich reports that he tried to find a ticket to ANY of the Dixie Chicks' upcoming concerts but he couldn't because they were all sold out. (To read Rich's column from yesterday's Times, "Bowling for Kennebunkport," go here: http://www.michaelmoore.com/articles/index.php?article=20030406-nytimes. He does a pretty good job of laying it all out and talks about my next film and the impact it could potentially have.) Their song, "Travelin' Soldier" (a beautiful anti-war  ballad) was the most requested song on the internet last week. They have not been hurt at all -- but that is not what the media would have you believe. Why is that? Because there is nothing more important now than to keep the voices of dissent -- and those who would dare to ask a question -- SILENT. And what better way than to try and take a few well-known entertainers down with a pack of lies so that the average Joe or Jane gets the message loud and clear: "Wow, if they would do that to the Dixie Chicks or Michael Moore, what would they do to little ol' me?" In other words, shut the f--- up. And that, my friends, is the real point of this film that I just got an Oscar for -- how those in charge use FEAR to manipulate the public into doing whatever they are told. Well, the good news -- if there can be any good news this week -- is that not only have neither I nor others been silenced, we have been joined by millions of Americans who think the same way we do. Don't let the false patriots intimidate you by setting the agenda or the terms of the debate. Don't be defeated by polls that show 70% of the public in favor of the war. Remember that these Americans being polled are the same Americans whose kids (or neighbor's kids) have been sent over to Iraq.  They are scared for the troops and they are being cowed into supporting a war they did not want -- and they want even less to see their friends, family, and neighbors come home dead. Everyone supports the troops returning home alive and all of us need to reach out and let their families know that. Unfortunately, Bush and Co. are not through yet. This invasion and conquest will encourage them to do it again elsewhere. The real purpose of this war was to say to the rest of the world, "Don't Mess with Texas - If You Got What We Want, We're Coming to Get It!" This is not the time for the majority of us who believe in a peaceful America to be quiet. Make your voices heard. Despite what they have pulled off, it is still our country. Yours, Michael Moore www.michaelmoore.com             Salam, Peace             ~ HiMY! ~

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
UmmWafi
04/10/03 at 02:06:14
[slm] [quote] Mike's opinion means nothing at ALL from an Islamic standpoint.  He is not even a Muslim.  [/quote] Forgive me for this intrusion.  However, when we start deciding we are certain about what is right and wrong definitely in Islam, then it is time to step back and Istighfar.  Unless we are very certain that our knowledge and abilities are equal to that of a faqih, then, Insha'Allah we should practise restraint. This is a reminder for myself first and foremost.  Astarghfirullah. Wassalam

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
BroHanif
04/10/03 at 03:01:52
Salaams, [quote]Mike's opinion means nothing at ALL from an Islamic standpoint.  He is not even a Muslim.  As for "those people", those people are my brothers and sisters. [/quote] I think this is not what we should be doing, the board is not  created to form divisions between those that are Muslims and those that are not. Instead we should be more understanding and respectful of each other. Its also good to hear Mike opionions whatever faith he is. Lets create bridges instead of burning em. Salaams Hanif
NS

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
paula
04/10/03 at 04:01:21
[slm] [size=3][font=Book Antiqua][color=Navy] Sister UmmWafi.... You have a way.... you never fail to rejuvenate my heart with your posts....reguardless of the topic...I mean this with all sincerety. [i]Astaghfirullah[/i] Sister Deen... You sure have the same effect..... May I share with your prayer: May Allaah SubHana Wa Ta`ala also bless, forgive and draw nearer every individual who has aided me on my path. A very heartfelt Jazaakumullaahu Khayran. [/color][/font][/size] [wlm]
04/10/03 at 04:11:42
paula

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
BrKhalid
04/10/03 at 06:53:02
Asalaamu Alaikum HiMY – Excellent post Bro. May Allah reward you for your efforts in T.O Events have come to pass. The wisdom behind such events are ultimately known to Allah alone. What we do know though is that there is not a single nation on this Earth that rules in accordance with Allah’s will. Therein is the real sadness. :( As Bro HiMY himself said in an earlier post, the Muslim Ummah is now composed of like minded people who live from America to Australia, from the UK to South Africa, from Germany to Malaysia and so on. We are not represented by any land border, by any country or by any leader. The tie that binds us is that we declare with the full convinction: “There is none worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad [saw] is his Messenger”. and act upon it accordingly.

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
Dude
04/10/03 at 10:53:47
I’ve taken great pains to try and make sure this post is written calmly. I’ve waited a bit before typing. [quote]Mike's opinion means nothing at ALL from an Islamic standpoint.  He is not even a Muslim.  As for "those people", those people are my brothers and sisters. [/quote] Bhaloo, when you write stuff like this, it makes me burn inside. Really, it comes accross as almost hateful. Are you saying that because Mike isn’t Muslim, his opinion doesn’t count? Are his viewpoints moot, in your opinion? Tell me, in your opinion; do my viewpoints count? Once again, reading your choice of the word “Kafir” has made me seethe. Nobody can tell me that the fashion in which you’ve just used that word can be construed as a non-negative word.  It just so happens that there are plenty of “Kafirs” all across the world that care about the plight of the Iraqis, and are helping out with the huge humanitarian efforts required. We, in fact, lost a beloved Canadian “Kafir” yesterday…he died in Iraq giving his time and heart to the Iraqis through the Red Cross. http://www.canada.com/national/features/iraq/story.html?id=BCC4A865-DA2C-497A-9D50-B68CFCB2EF55 . Vatche Arslanian may in fact have been a Muslim (we don’t know, the article here doesn’t say), but that really is beside the point. He’s only one of hundreds of “Kafirs” risking their lives trying to provide a humanitarian effort. You seem to refuse to open your eyes to the fact that many “kafirs” across the world actually care for the Iraqis…they don’t care for them because they’re Muslims, but because they’re humans. They see the children and innocent dying, and are dying along with them. You see, there isn’t a religious segregation there. Mike (I refuse to call him a “Kafir”) seems to sincerely care about the plight of the Iraqis…why is that so difficult to accept? What is the problem with this? Hanif, the wise man of this site puts it best: Let's create bridges instead of burning them.
04/10/03 at 12:01:57
Dude

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
humble_muslim
04/10/03 at 11:10:22
AA First and foremost, apologies to anyone who feels I have offended them. Yesterday was an emotional day. I agree completely with Hanif : we are here to build bridges.  As Mike will confirm, shortly after he joined the board, he and I had a personal on-line chat, my attempt at building bridges with him. I am also constantly praying to Allah SWT to give guidance to the non-muslims on this board we are trying to reach out to ... Mike, Chris, Dude, Deke (yes, even him). HOWEVER... Having said that, I need to point out one VERY important fact.  Almost all of the US and UK Media are looking at this war thru blinkered eyes, and without taking account of the muslim viewpoint.  Let's not forget this is a forum for muslims, after all.  So I come to this forum so that (i) I can read news that doesn't simply cheerlead the war and (ii) I can understand the muslims' point of view.  If I simply wanted to read the propaganda, I could just go to cnn.com (which I have been completely avoiding). But what ends up happening ? At this VERY emotional time for muslims (our bros and siss are being maimed and killed), some individuals are still posting posts here which APPEAR to be pro-war (not saying the posts actually are, they simply appear to be).  When this happens on a forum like this one - which I and others specifically go to to get away from pro-war opinions -  it's not very healthy.  Jannah mentioned this fact several weeks ago in fact, that things might start getting out of control. So I suggest that we all try to talk with rationale and not with emotion. And just remember that everyone is still very tense out there.
NS

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
jannah
04/10/03 at 11:15:26
Dude thanx for your post. We do think your opinion counts. And we do think the opinion of non-muslims count here. In fact they are probably decidedly weighted more because in my opinion you represent the way most non-muslims think and their ideas, misconceptions, and viewpoints. And I think it's important for us as *muslims* to understand that and to respond to it. But I do not think it's right to be disrespectful to a whole other people and their views either. This is a very difficult time for Muslims and to be inconsiderate of that is just not right. To talk about the war and support certain things is like adding insult to injury.. kicking a person when they're down... Your views and others on the war are known to us and not unlike alot of other people's views, there's no point in continuing to argue over it in redundancy. My purpose in this message board was never to make it a 'political board' or a 'debate board'. I'm really in a quandry to try to figure out how to change this. Emotionally charged atmosphere and making Muslims feel negative is not what I want and unfortunately it's always the result in many threads here. You tell me what I should do to fix this?  I can't change how people respond to you unfortunately I wish I could. I also can't edit 14 posts and lock 3 threads every day.  This is draining on me and everyone else.
04/10/03 at 11:17:02
jannah

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
Dude
04/10/03 at 11:33:23
I don't think you can, or should, do much to change. The Humble Muslim calls me a non-Muslim (I guess I'm a "Kafir", in his opinion)...he obviously doesn't know me, or hasn't been reading some of the stuff written here recently (as Bhaloo may state, I'm a Muslim with some issue to sort out ;)...probably a fair description). Having said that, why should it matter? It seems to. I've seen non-Muslims log on to this board since I started reading, writing, and lurking about...and it seems every time they get beat up for no better reason than they are non-Muslim. There is a condescending tone to many posts (I won't name names), suggesting that "We (Muslims) are superior, and you ("Kafir") are inferior". I know this feeling first hand: I was treated like a pauper by my own wife's older bothers before I converted. All of a sudden, the day I decide to officially accept that there is one God in a meeting with our Imam, I'm treated like a brother. My problem with that was, I hadn't changed from the morning to the afternoon. Heck...the only thing that did change was my tee time so I could accommodate the Imam! ;D I can see you're exasperated. It should be pointed out that you run an excellent site (despite my and others "complaints")...really, this is one of the best discussion sites around. It encourages active discussion. Do I disagree with some of the deleted posts and banned members? Absolutely...but it is your site to run as you see fit, and you're pretty good at it. As for this "wall" that seems to be up between some of the non-Muslims and Muslims of this board...don't know what you can do about that. I suppose the only thing you can do is to keep this going, and hopefully lines will be blurred, or even erased. I know some of my opinions have changed (for the better) since I've logged on...and I hope some of your opinions of non-Muslims have changed too. Sorry...this was off topic, but somehow related. :)

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
jannah
04/10/03 at 11:36:44
Ok thank you.... what do other people think as well?

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
humble_muslim
04/10/03 at 11:59:52
AA Dude, It's kind of disturbing, when I try and put out a "peace-making" kind of post, to be lamblasted for it. First and foremost, I have NEVER used the word KAFIR on this board for ANYONE. As you can tell from my name, I'm not that kind of person. Secondly, my statements in my last thread were NOT directed to anyone (I did not mention names).  Even some posts from muslims have been supportive of some aspects of this war.  I will re-iterate : I come here to get away from those points of view.  If I want them, all I need to do is switch in the TV/radio/internet, and I'll have more than enough of them to satisfy me. So if I have got emotional after seeing thse kinds of views here (and I have NOT seen those kinds of view from you), I apologize for that. Secondly, it is VERY confusing from your posts to me whether you are muslim or not.  You said you converted, and then keep saying "but...".  My apologies if I misunderstood this.  Whatever you are, it makes sense to me that I pray for your guidance. Now if I'm praying for your guidance, how can that mean that I have a superiority complex over you, or are condescening ?  I pray for the guidance of myself, my wife, my mother, my brother, my uncle - they are all muslims.  Does that mean that I have a superiority complex over them ? Jannah, please DO NOT delete Dude's last post if you feel it was insulting to me.
NS

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
UmmWafi
04/10/03 at 12:15:10
[slm] Sis Jannah and all Madinites When I posted the point abt us being very sure and certain about Islamic jurisprudence, it was in no way done to support or back a member.  I feel that all of us here are adults and are very capable of answering for ourselves.  Indeed, my intention was to draw attention to a practice that we, me especially maybe, sometimes indulge in, that is, to state something very decidedly as if an ijma' has been made and a fatwa pronounced.  In short, writing something as if that is THE truth. Having said that, in view of some very heavy duty editing by the mods and some remarks made by members, let me offer my humble opinions.  I think first and foremost, I would like to offer my deepest gratitude to Allah SWT for moving Jannah's heart to produce this wonderful site.  Secondly, I would like to thank Jannah sincerely for her unfailing strength and perseverence in ensuring that despite the occasional odds and ends, this board is still very much infused with the Islamic spirit, as it should be.  Even when heated words are exchanged, they are still exchanged in the spirit of elevating one's imaan.  It is not easy to find another site like this.  Thirdly, despite Jannah's best intentions, this board is frequented by a whole potluck of people.  Just like Madinat al-Nabiy, despite the different people and views, strong leadership will Insha'Allah make this site better as time goes by. Sis Jannah, I speak as someone who had to moderate, A LOT, in another site once.  I understand and appreciate your difficulty and challenge.  There will always be conflicting opinions as to how you should run the show.  Some will think you are too easy with the edit button and wants more freedom of speech while others will wonder why you allow so many things to pass.  How do you balance ?  By trusting Allah SWT and by being true to your heart and conscience.  Each time you allow a post to be moderated Lillahi ta'aala, then Insha'Allah thats the best choice.  Each time you allow a post to pass Lillahi ta'aala, then Insha'Allah you have done right.  Just continue to do as you have done because, after all has been said and done, you have done an excellent job.  Subhanallah.  Mabruk. [quote] Having said that, why should it matter? It seems to. I've seen non-Muslims log on to this board since I started reading, writing, and lurking about...and it seems every time they get beat up for no better reason than they are non-Muslim. There is a condescending tone to many posts (I won't name names), suggesting that "We (Muslims) are superior, and you ("Kafir") are inferior".[/quote] In all my participation on this board, I have yet to see a member beat up a poster because he/she is a non-Muslim, AND allowed to stay as a member.  Sometimes, in our emotional moments, we can read into things and see what is sometimes not there.  Perhaps, what is seen as a member beating up a non-Muslim poster is just a heated argument because the non-Muslim's opinions differ greatly from that member and NOT because he is a non-Muslim.  I am not writing this because I have blind faith in my Muslim brethren but because over the years, I would like to think that I have somewhat come to know the Madinites.  They are passionate, intelligent and sincere Muslims who care very much for their community.  I have seen Madinites share football jokes with non-Muslims, sisters sharing secrets of the perfect skin with non-Muslims and even commiserate deeply when a non-Muslim poster faced family problems. I have been on the receiving end of a mistaken assessment of my posts and being thought of doing things which were far from my thoughts and intent so I know how easy it is to assume.  Insha'Allah, we, Muslims and non-Muslims alike, are capable of doing and achieving so much more if we can start anew by putting aside prejudices and assumptions, let alone presumptions, to give people the benefit of the doubt and to actually start caring enough about that benefit.  Hatred is easy to foster but it burns all that it comes in touch with leaving nothing behind but ashes and decay whereas love takes time but look at what it brings ?  Peace and long-lasting serenity, even when you get bumps along the way. To all Madinites, I love you very much for the sake of Allah. Wassalam.
04/10/03 at 12:17:41
UmmWafi

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
Dude
04/10/03 at 12:19:14
I apologize for insinuating you use that word. I know Bhaloo uses it to great extent (in my opinion, abuses it), and sometimes I get caught up in thinking you and Bhaloo are on in the same, opinion wise. I know it's not the case. Again, I sincerely apologize...many around here know how much I hate that word, and I intend not to accuse anyone of using it when they haven't. Anyhow, my personal battle to accept parts of the religion are just that: personal. I've come to accept that I am Muslim, like it or not! ;) Let's just say there are a couple of very personal issues that I will not discuss here that keep me in conflict with the Muslim religious points of view. Again, as Bhaloo suggested, I have issues. You may notice I don't use words like "brother" and "sister" in the same context as many. The reason why is because of my background...I have a lot of family (cousins) and close friends that are non-Muslim, who I would consider a brother or sister...but it doesn't work for the Muslim definition. In your last thread you were especially hard on Mike, when he was just sharing in the jubilation the Iraqis were clearly feeling at that moment. To me, that shows he cares about their plight. He is a non-Muslim who cares for Muslims. I thought you were out of line. That said, I think your apology is appropriate. As far as this thread is concerned, we've somehow missed the spirit of it in all the arguing...we all feel for the innocent of Iraq. I think it is OK to be both sad and happy for them at the same time. Their battles aren't over, but if indeed Saddam has been either killed or removed from power, that's a good first step. Hopefully a new Iraqi regime will be implemented that will provide the people with the freedoms the so richly deserve.

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
humble_muslim
04/10/03 at 12:34:25
AA Apology accepted Brother Dude, and may Allah guide both of us Ameen. Here's the bottom line for me.  The jubiliation - if there is any - of the Iraqis will be linked to what the USA have done.  This linkage makes me feel sick to my stomach, when I think of Gulf War 1 (250000 civilians killed), the sanctions, and what has happened so far in this war (typified by Ali, the boy who lost his whole family and his hands).  In no way will I EVER have any gratitude to the USA for this war, no matter what the outcome. Let me give you a simile.  A lot of people in the USA actually became muslim after 9/11.  I thank Allah for that. But does that justify 9/11 itself ?  Or cahnge how I feel about 9/11 ? ABSOULUETY NOT!!!! 9/11 will be a guilt for me my whole life because it was committed by people who share my faith.  Similarly, whatever "good" happens out of this war will never justify the war itself.  If you want to know why, just read John Pilger's article in this forum, which really sums it up.
NS

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
Dude
04/10/03 at 12:49:15
[quote]Similarly, whatever "good" happens out of this war will never justify the war itself. [/quote] I think that's fair. I agree with that sentiment, for sure. [i]Now, can we all just have a big old group hug?[/i] :'( ;)

We need sense
Maliha
04/10/03 at 12:51:42
[slm] I have been in and out of the Ummah lately (more in than out)..and I have failed in my own promise to myself to stay away...I think HumbleMuslim put it so aptly, in times of stress, this place is like a haven for most of us. Lately I have been at times physically ill from everything that's going on, and then i come here and I i just feel like bursting to tears :( You are right Bro Hanif we should be building bridges, and reality is totally unreflected on this board. Most of the meetings I go to in regards to the anti war movement are solely comprised of non Muslims. I met Adam Shapiro and he moved me to tears with his recollection of experiences on the front lines of Palestine. Let's not forget the deaths of innocent journalists, peace activisits (one more was shot point blank by the Israelis! And of course we don't hear about that in the media)...building bridges is definitely the key, especially in these times when we could use all the support we can get. On the other hand, I wouldn't go to a Non Muslim, pro War, Pro Zionist, board and expect to hear sympathy for my point of view. I don't bother. I used to think this board was mainly for dawah, but Bhaloo pointed out to me that dawah is actually secondary...as we reflect on the very mission of this board: Madinatul Muslimeen has been founded and built to be a fun, informative place so Muslims can get to know each other and support each other in becoming better Muslims. So we are not hear to convince others of our point of view, and others shouldn't come here expecting people to receive them with wide arms when they are dissing Muslims! (I am not naming any names, so please don't jump on me). Dude Alhamdullillah to hear you are Muslim now, I was confused myself with the contradictory nature of your posts, May Allah give you guidance and us all, to understanding the deen better, and getting closer to him. May be you can post your concerns anonymously to Al Manar, and get some feedback on some of those issues you are dealing with. Just an option. UmmWafi, your spirit is truly beautiful, and I love you too for the sake of Allah. May we continue to learn and flourish and become better Muslims in this short journey to Allah. Sis, Maliha :-) [wlm]

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
lightningatnite
04/10/03 at 16:47:31
[slm] Alhamdulillah.  I think my biggest concern is people who have an ax to grind and use this board to fulfill that purpose.  This used to be a friendly place, where we, as Muslims, could come to, and escape from all the negativity in the world.  I don't think we've ever had a problem addressing sincere seekers of knowledge.  But there's a difference between that and some of what has been going on in this forum. I don't think any person who is consistently argumentative belongs on this board.  This is not the place for such people.  When the Prophet alaihissalam encountered someone like this, he said "Antum harb--you are war" and left him.  There is no use wasting time with such people.  And if they continue with such an attitude, we should dissociate with them.

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
SuperHiMY
04/10/03 at 16:55:19
Salam, Hello, walaykum, and yo,   I feel like 'my' thread has been hijacked somehow.   But I'm too busy to type anything more than the following: Globe and Mail asks "is war right?" VOTE NOW! Here’s another chance to make your voice heard. A poll on today’s on-line edition of the Globe and Mail asks “Given the swift collapse of the Iraqi government, do you now think the U.S. was right to launch an invasion?” Is war ever right? Go to http://globeandmail.com/ TOP RIGHT CORNER OF THE THEIR HOMEPAGE, SEE IT? GOOD. NOW VOTE. I voted NO. Currently it's 53 % NO.

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
Dude
04/10/03 at 18:12:21
Maliha, Ironically, I owe Bhaloo to helping me straighten myself out (of all people, he's probably the one I but heads with most here). It seems I really always have believed in Islam. Once again, I would by no means call myself conventional, and I do have great difficulty in accepting some of the aspects. That said, I believe in one God, and I have always believed in most of the pillars (a couple I question, but in terms of the ethics and morality aspects, I'm 100% in agreement). I have also accepted Islam into my household, and trying my best to teach my kids the best parts of the religion, and to be as good an example as I can be. Unfortunately, some Muslims may call me a hypocrite, but that's the risk I'll take. I have great role models around me to help in their Islam teaching (my wife & her parents), and we've a pretty happy family. Other than all this, I really don't like to get into my religious "status".  Likely the reason why many assume I'm non-Muslim is because I speak and write as a Westerner. I'm not ashamed of being a Westerner, and I don't try to hide from that. Some (probably 99% of readers ;)) will say I'm brash, and they have trouble interpreting my posts. All I can say is that my personality is reflected in my posts. I don't beat around the bush, and I get to the point. I'm brash likely because in person I come across as that at first. Funny, my wife and best friends all tell me, "Gee Dude, I couldn't stand you at first!". Just the way I am. I am a very lucky, very energetic, and very content individual. I'm been blessed to grow up in what I'd say is the most beautiful part of the world, in a free democracy, and rich resources. I grew up (like many Americans) playing either soccer or baseball all year round. I still fill my weekends with a match on Sundays during the winter, and hitting the great mountain bike runs of the North Shore in the summer. I have the flexibility to take my boy to swimming lessons twice per week, skating twice per week, and soccer once. We're so lucky here...that's why it kills me every time I see a dead or maimed Iraqi child on the news. Also, I know I'm not alone in this...far from it. Here are a couple of examples...on September 14th/2001 we had a league game scheduled. Before the match started, both teams stood at centre circle for a minute of silence. You have to understand the make-up of the lads...we had two Italians, two Englishmen, one African, two East Indians, and the rest Canadians. 16 players total. Two weekends ago, we played a Cup match to qualify for our Provincial finals...and the lads surprised me by insisting on it again. You see, I'm the only person connected to Muslims on the squad, amongst a throng of various ethnic and religious backgrounds. As it turned out, the boys recalled that I had made the suggestion to both teams a year or more earlier stop and pay respect to our fallen neighbors to the South. They saw I wasn’t myself on the Sunday, and I guess a couple remembered my wife, and decided I'd like the tribute. You see, there is usually only one day of the year we stop to have a moment of silence: September 11, at 11:11 AM- Remembrance Day. Anyhow, it was a proud day to play, and to wear the armband. I guess what I'm getting at is that Muslims aren't the only ones grieving...the world is suffering along with Muslims. These events transcend religion and cultural differences, because nobody with an ounce of guilt in their heart can stand to see an innocent child suffer. I know that the war isn't over, and I know that there is a long, long way to go before Iraq can possibly be considered 100% unoccupied, and legitimately free. I don't feel the costs to innocent lives were worth the result we see now...but it still makes me feel good to see some happy people. For once. Wow...long post. Sorry for the verbal blah blah blah...

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
theOriginal
04/10/03 at 18:18:47
[slm] Jannah...yeah it seems to be a problem....and I never thought I would get caught up in it too... Anyway, keep locking em ;) Wasalaam.

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
a_Silver_Rose
04/10/03 at 19:05:43
[slm] [quote]I've seen non-Muslims log on to this board since I started reading, writing, and lurking about...and it seems every time they get beat up for no better reason than they are non-Muslim. [/quote] Alhumdulilah when I came to this site things werent going so good, and God Bless You Jannah, the site changed helped me cope while i saw all the support and unity around here.  Finally I come to the ummah section of the board and I was shocked to hear some of the comments towards Dude and Mike and some other nonmuslims. Every post I read of theirs, they were just expressing THEIR point of view which seemed like some people couldnt accept and blamed them for being opposition to muslims or trying to force their opinion on them.  I have never read anything from them which I thought was offensive. Alhumdulilah. I admire them for still staying because I think some of the stuff said would easily get people to have a bad opinion of Muslims and run away from this site.  They stuck by it as I am sure they know that opinons do not necessarily reflect Islam. now what I am saying is what I feel and this is just my opinon. I do feel that you quickly tend to erase or lock some posts, that are probably not as bad as some other posts that should be locked (probably because it goes against what you believe also).  I do feel there is a bias...but this is my opinion and Allah (swt) knows best.   [quote]You may notice I don't use words like "brother" and "sister" in the same context as many. The reason why is because of my background...I have a lot of family (cousins) and close friends that are non-Muslim, who I would consider a brother or sister...but it doesn't work for the Muslim definition. [/quote] Brother Dude Alhumdulilah! Its very nice to hear that you accept Islam in your heart.  Why doesnt brother and sister work for nonmuslims? Muslims who convert have brothers and sisters, now that they are Muslim, that doesnt change.  I will tell you what what this Brother in my masjid who gives awesome khutbas (speeches), refers to nonmuslims as.  He addresses them saying they are our brothers and sisters in humanity. Alhumdulilah! so Muslims are brothers and sister in Islam while nonmuslims are Brothers and sisters in humanity Simply_sister I would like to repeat to you what you always say to theoriginal, you are soo cute:) your post makes me smile :)thanx uncle Hanif wise as ever, Alhumdulilah.  HImy brother your words are deep and touching and always make me think.  Brother Bhaloo I always wanted to tell you something, but im afraid you will consider it an insult (its very much not one, just something funny) but if you want to know pm me. Sister Jannah Alhumdulilah beautfiul site ....and I want to thankyou deeply for allowing us to post our feelings here. I want to make the point that everyone has different views. Lets listen to theirs and learn from it. . If we become emotional then we will fail to bring our point.  Also being in a difficult time is not an excuse to put others down. Lets take example of the prophet (swt) and be patient and invite people to Islam with wisdom.  Remember the saying..'if you cant say anything good about anyone, then dont say anything at all. May Allah (swt) bless you, guide you and bring unity and peace in the world. Ameen. Brother HImy sorry to hijack your post but look like alot of good is coming out of it. thankyou. I myself a also guilty, so please forgive me and I apologise to anyone who i have offended, insulted, or said anything wrong. Sincerely, Your sister in Islam and your sister in Humanity

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
panjul
04/10/03 at 19:22:40
and trying my best to teach my kids the best parts of the religion, Dude, no disrespect intended, but as a Muslim it is my duty in front of Allah to say just that, there everything about Islam is "best." there are not "Best parts" and not-so-best parts.

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
panjul
04/10/03 at 19:30:37
In all my participation on this board, I have yet to see a member beat up a poster because he/she is a non-Muslim, AND allowed to stay as a member. I agree with this. We have had a few non-muslims convert to islam, from corresponding to the members on this board.

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
Sparrow
04/10/03 at 21:57:15
Hi Everyone, Just wanted to comment on Dude's mention of the fact that it seems non-Muslims get beaten up when they express their opinion on the boards.   I've been coming here for, gosh, I *think* a couple of years now, and I will say that although I personally have never felt beaten up there has been a definite change in tone from certain people and in certain forums, and in my opinion this has happened since 9/11.  Mistrust has grown, as it has in the "real" world, and I think that's sad to see.   I came to the boards at a really bad time in my life, and without being too sappy about it coming here and learning more about Islam and meeting the people here was one of the things that pulled me through the rough patch.  I was close to reverting back then, and although I am not now, my interest in Islam still remains, which is why I continue to come.   Plus, there are people here who crack me up. Had I been a newbie since 9/11 I think my experience on this board would have been quite different.  When I first came I thought this board was a *great* example of how Muslims and non could exchange views about life, the universe and everything in between in a civil manner, but now  people are so quick to jump to conclusions and assume the worst, which I think needlessly leads to some of the more unpleasant exchanges. Now it's just depressing in that it reflects the short-tempers and suspicion of the "real" world and doesn't give me much hope for future peace.   In the last year I myself have been accused of being both a blindly-following media tool (hilarious if you know me) and unsupportive of the Palestinians (even more hilarious if you know me). Anyway, I wish we could all just relax and give each other the benefit of the doubt.    There is so much work to be done in the world, we'd get alot more accomplished by working together. Humble Muslim, your comment about wanting to come here to get away from the propaganda etc. really resonated with me.   It's lovely that non-Muslims are welcomed and encouraged here by most, perhaps in return we non-Muslims should keep in mind that we are guests here and not always be looking for the debate and argument.  Just a thought. (Along those lines, I really wish we could drop this tiresome debate about the word "kaffir."  Can't we just agree that for many the word has a neutral connontation when used, and those who use it to put down non-Muslims or make themselves feel superior have greater problems than can be solved on this board, and move on?) OK, now here is one unrelated question: If Allah is everything and knows everything and wills everything, then isn't this war his will?  How can it be a bad thing then?   I suppose it could be construed as some sort of punishment?  If that is the case, how does one know the difference between god's will and god's punishment? PEACE PEACE PEACE Sparrow

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
bhaloo
04/10/03 at 22:47:43
[slm] Mashallah so very well said. [quote author=lightningatnite link=board=ummah;num=1049904555;start=45#47 date=04/10/03 at 16:47:31] [slm] Alhamdulillah.  I think my biggest concern is people who have an ax to grind and use this board to fulfill that purpose.  This used to be a friendly place, where we, as Muslims, could come to, and escape from all the negativity in the world.  I don't think we've ever had a problem addressing sincere seekers of knowledge.  But there's a difference between that and some of what has been going on in this forum. I don't think any person who is consistently argumentative belongs on this board.  This is not the place for such people.  When the Prophet alaihissalam encountered someone like this, he said "Antum harb--you are war" and left him.  There is no use wasting time with such people.  And if they continue with such an attitude, we should dissociate with them.   [/quote] If only we could dissociate from them.  Its easy to do it in real life, but here on the board, we are stuck with them, and they make it difficult for others on the board if we ignore them.  So unfortunately that leaves us with the task of editing/deleting their posts, and eventually their deletion. :(

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
a_Silver_Rose
04/10/03 at 23:30:02
[slm] Very sincere post Sparrow. I am sorry that people had judged you ([quote]In the last year I myself have been accused of being both a blindly-following media tool (hilarious if you know me) and unsupportive of the Palestinians (even more hilarious if you know me).[/quote]) I apologise on behalf of my Muslim brothers and sisters. I assure you that the prophet  [saw] never would have acted this way. They will have to answer to Allah(Swt). To think that they know how you feel and what you are is indeed wrong, for only Allah (swt) only knows that. [quote]If Allah is everything and knows everything and wills everything, then isn't this war his will?  How can it be a bad thing then?   I suppose it could be construed as some sort of punishment?  If that is the case, how does one know the difference between god's will and god's punishment? PEACE PEACE PEACE Sparrow [/quote] AS for your questions...From what I know, Islam says that there are two reasons why something bad befalls a person 1.) because it is a test 2.) a punishment .( i believe this is a hadith?). It seems like a big test for how we react to the war...it seems are we are failing and only feeling hate when we should know that this life is temporary and everything happens for a reason. I believe 9/11 was also a test, on how we deal with things.  The changes that you have seen in us Muslims seems like we are not dealing with it well.  We seem to be full of hate, mistrust and fear. AStagfirullah. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I do not think anyone is trying to be argumentive here. I believe that we are all trying to understand each other. Everyone's opinion counts, whether we agree with it or not. I think people are just trying to bring up points so you look at the other end of the story too. Bringing up critical points can only help us to learn and grow. If someone feels a certain way, then we should all try to understand how and why they feel this way. We should not criticize them for their feelings/opinions and force your own opinion on them or else they will just run away and not want to listen.   Nonmuslims here should be considered our guests.  In Islam guests are to be treated with the utmost respect (now i wished i memorized many quranic ayahs and hadith) (insh'Allah I will) If even one of our guest are unhappy then shouldnt we think about what we did wrong and try to change our ways? Ya Allah help us unite as one ummah. Ya Allah forgive us for our sins and bring love and harmony between our brothers and sisters. Ya Allah help us deal with the bad that befalls us and give us patience in this time of trial.  Ya Allah help us follow the beautiful way of our beloved Prophet [saw] in character and iman. Ya Allah give us the courage to ask for forgiveness for our bad deeds and to forgive others.  Ya Allah thankyou for blessing us with comfort and thankyou for giving us a way to understand each other. Ya Allah help this madina community to continue to grow into a beautiful place in which muslims and nonmuslims can express their views and continue to learn about the beautiful deen that You have blessed us with All my dua's for all of you, Your sister

Re: Today is one of the saddest days of my life...
bhaloo
04/10/03 at 23:48:01
[slm] [quote author=Sparrow link=board=ummah;num=1049904555;start=45#54 date=04/10/03 at 21:57:15] Humble Muslim, your comment about wanting to come here to get away from the propaganda etc. really resonated with me.   It's lovely that non-Muslims are welcomed and encouraged here by most, perhaps in return we non-Muslims should keep in mind that we are guests here and not always be looking for the debate and argument.  Just a thought. [/quote] Excellent point, and I agree with it completely.   Our board here, is not about debates or arguing or getting into fights, its never been that, its been about winning hearts.   The fact that I'm posting in the UCC is a problem, a big problem.  The forums I would post in heavily (many years ago) were the naseeah corner, ikhwan, bebsi, and al-taqwa folders.  But now that there are problems, unfortunately I have to waste my time and come here and defend my brothers and sisters.   I shouldn't have to be in such a situation.   [quote] OK, now here is one unrelated question: [/quote] They are excellent questions, and I applaud you for asking them.  These are the types of questions that sincere non-Muslims such as yourself and Dawn have been asking, and its always a pleasure to address them. [quote] If Allah is everything and knows everything and wills everything, then isn't this war his will?  How can it be a bad thing then?   I suppose it could be construed as some sort of punishment?  If that is the case, how does one know the difference between god's will and god's punishment? [/quote] Allah (SWT) says in the Quran, interpretation of the meaning: Quran 4:79 Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah; but whatever evil happens to thee, is from thy (own) soul. and We have sent thee as a messenger to (instruct) mankind. And enough is Allah for a witness. ;========================== And really if we look at the sorry state that Muslims are in the world, they have no one to blame but themselves, they have abandoned Islam.   How many of them practice the basics even?  So why should they (we) deserve Allah's mercy?   Not until Muslims get their act together and return to Islam will their condition improve. p.s. someone complained about something I said in this thread with regards to Mike's opinion not being the Islamic viewpoint and as a result some people got upset and it started a mess.  To this I saw why?   I don't take my religion from Mike, I take it from Muslim scholars  and/or from people that are conveying what the scholars have said.  And with regards to the issue that was brought up , I knew what scholars had said on the matter.  So why would I look for an Islamic ruling on something from a non-Muslim?  Maybe someone can explain that.
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