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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Punishment |
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| BrKhalid |
| 04/11/03 at 05:32:41 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) A question from Sparrow in the *being repaired UCC* ;-) [quote]If that is the case, how does one know the difference between god's will and god's punishment?[/quote] But is punishment always necessarily bad? If I punish my son when he does a bad thing, does that mean I have forsaken him or that I actually love him? What's that old saying? Cruel to be kind I think ;-) Btw Sparrow nice post in that last thread ;-) |
| Re: Punishment |
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| Dude |
| 04/11/03 at 11:34:17 |
| As a father, disciplining my kid is the toughest part of being a parent. Same with keeping one’s temper in check. Both need to be done, though. I’ve always interpreted everything happens for a reason, by God’s will. I’ve never really seen it as punishment or reward, but more of constant tests. If you’re tested with this, and you do this, this will happen. Whatever path you chose will determine what happens to you in the future…all predetermined. Boy did I butcher that one…sounds more like a D&D book than anything… I’ll go back to my hole now. ::) |
| Re: Punishment |
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| Sparrow |
| 05/07/03 at 07:23:09 |
| Sorry for not replying to this before guys! I have been "mad busy" as my young cousins say and have not been here in a while. Punishment is not always bad. I guess I was asking more along the lines of how can we be *against* anything (like the war in Iraq, which is now a banned topic so I won't mention it :P) if it is God's will. If it's God's will don't we have to except it with open arms? If it is God's punishment than we *can* be against it in that it was our own behavior that caused it, no? I have never been comfy with the idea of "God's will" to be honest. It seems to be a major concept in all of the "Big Three" (Islam, Christanity, Judaism). I just can't get my mind around it. It just seems so passive and an avoidance of responsibilty in one's life. No offense intended. This is a topic of high interest to me. Often I feel that I am a religious person in agnositic clothing; I just can't get past god's will!! All comments and challenges welcome! Peace, Sparrow |
| Re: Punishment |
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| sofia |
| 05/07/03 at 16:04:42 |
| Peace, Sparrow - [quote]I have never been comfy with the idea of "God's will" to be honest. It seems to be a major concept in all of the "Big Three" (Islam, Christanity, Judaism). I just can't get my mind around it. It just seems so passive and an avoidance of responsibilty in one's life. [/quote] I totally agree. Only thing is, I think the concept you're referring to is fatalism, rather than simply "God's will." While it may have infected the "Big 3" throughout various times in history, fatalism is not a Divine concept/teaching, and defin. not within Islaam teachings. Hope these links are of some help: Previous discussion on [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=madrasa;action=display;num=1051769424]Divine Decree and Destiny (see the "Al-Qadaa' wal-Qadar" lecture posted by deenb4dunya)[/url] -------------------------------- Excerpt from [url=http://www.wponline.org/vil/Books/MHZ_IEBAD/CHAPTERFOUR.html]"Does The Faith of Islam advocate fatalism?"[/url] 1- Anyone who reads and meditates upon the verses of the Quran shall realize that Islam is a religion that urges man to action, for work is life and without work life shall cease to exist. Consequently we find in many Quranic verses that God Almighty linked righteous deeds and true Faith. Righteous deeds are every good deed or act performed whether it be of a religious or a worldly nature which benefits mankind or repels evil: [color=green]"And say: work (righteousness); soon will God observe your work, and His Apostle and the believers (in the Faith)" (9/105).[/color] The Quran urges people to work even on Fridays, the day of rest and worship of the Muslims: [color=green]"And when the (Friday Noon) prayer is finished, then you may dispense through the land and seek the Bounty of God" (62/10).[/color] 2-The Prophet urged people to work until the last moment of their lives and till the end of the world. He is related to have said: [color=green]"Should the last hour come upon you while you have a palm shoot in your hand that you are about to plant, plant it if you can". [/color]The prophet also refused to approve of people who spent all day and night long praying in mosques and depending on others to provide for them and maintain them. He also praised and blessed the person who earned his livelihood from his own toil and he said that the hand that toils in labour is blessed by God and by his Apostle. 3- The Prophet, who is the ideal of all Muslims, as stated in the Quran, used to work, plan, deliberate and prepare everything that was needed and then put his trust in God. Putting trust in God does not mean neglecting work and praying to God to fulfil our hope. The reason for this is that faith and trust in God is not only necessary but also obligatory, to remind us of God Almighty which inspires us with a spiritual energy that enables to overcome obstacles or problems with determination and resolution. This trust and dependence on God should be a strong and positive force and not a passive and an apathetic attitude. Relying completely upon God, without making any effort to realize one's aims on the pretext that God's Will will be done as He Wills, is not accepted by Islam, for God does not assist a person who makes no effort to help himself. God, however, aids the person who strives to attain his aim: [color=green]"Verily God will never change the condition of a people until they change it themselves'' (13/11).[/color] Omar ben Al khattab expressed his great displeasure concerning a group of men who spent all their time praying in a mosque and depending upon others to work to maintain them and he exclaimed: "The sky does not rain gold or silver.'' He supported his statement by relating one of the sayings of the prophet and said: " Do what birds do .They go out every morning with empty craws and return at the end of the day with full craws'' .People should learn a lesson from the birds that go out every morning in search of food and return at the end of the day with full craws. -------------------------------- Excerpt from [url=http://muslim-canada.org/pickthall_fatalism.htm]"The Untenable Charge of Fatalism Against Muslims."[/url] [i]This lecture was entitled "The Charge of Fatalism" and was delivered by Marmaduke Pickthall in 1927.[/i] I have shown you something of Islamic culture in its splendour and decline. It is the fashion to ascribe its decline to a certain defect said to be inherent in Islam: its fatalism. To what then must one ascribe the rise of Islamic culture, the leading position which the Muslims attained and long maintained in the world? Logically, this too must be ascribed to fatalism if fatalism is inherent in Islam; which is impossible! And how are we to account for the indubitable fact that Muslims showed most energy, and so won most success, while they obeyed the precepts of their religion strictly and with full intelligence, and became languid and declined in proportion as they disobeyed its precepts and obscured their meaning if fatalism is indeed a defect and inherent in Islam? If all hinges on the old question of predestination and free-will which has agitated the Christian world, as it has agitated the Muslim world, at certain periods of history. In the Qur'an, the province of free-will is clearly indicated. It is but a province in the midst of Allah's Sovereignty and even in that province man cannot escape from Allah's law of consequences. [i]Wheresoever ye may be, death will overtake you, even though ye were in lofty towers. Yet if a happy thing befalleth them they say: This is from Allah; and if an evil thing befalleth them they say: This is of thy doing (O Muhammad). Say (unto them): All is from Allah. What is amiss with these people that they come not nigh to understand a happening? [Qur'an 4:78] [/i] ... |
| NS |
| 05/08/03 at 08:57:40 |
| sofia |
| Re: Punishment |
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| Sparrow |
| 05/09/03 at 20:15:19 |
| hi sofia, thanks for posting this, it made for interesting reading. Still though, my brain is not bending around the concept. While I understand the idea that people can't just sit around and do nothing and calls it "God's will," I don't understand how we can have free will at all if God is predetermining our actions. How can we essentially do anything wrong if God is "deciding" if you will, that that is what we will do? And why would God make anyone do bad things? It would be more comprehensible to me if I thought that God was giving us choices and we were free to make the choice, and then accept what came along as either reward or punishment. But how can I have any choice if it is God who is deciding that I will choose the wrong thing in the first place? My head is spinning :P Sparrow |
| Re: Punishment |
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| momineqbal |
| 05/09/03 at 20:34:21 |
| [slm], I was listening to the lecture on Al Qada wa Qadr by Sheikh Mokhtar Maghraoui on islamicity. I think it might be helpful. http://islamicity.com/multimedia/CyberTV/ch32/ |
| 05/09/03 at 20:35:49 |
| momineqbal |
| Re: Punishment |
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| sofia |
| 05/12/03 at 13:28:59 |
| Sparrow, Thanks for reading. Since I'm not even close to having the ability to explain the unseen, I can only say this much: We're not meant to understand everything about it (so don't worry, we're all in the same boat). We are, after all, humans - not God. We are part of creation, not the Creator. His knowledge is not like our knowledge, and His power is not like our power. The more we try to equate the two, the more problems we create for our minds to contend with. We're dealing with dimensions that we are not even fully aware of. Our future is already His past. We, as human beings, have already accepted the fact that we are limited. I can't move two tons of weights with my bare hands. Likewise, our minds are not meant to understand everything there is about say, quantum physics, let alone knowledge of the unseen. In fact, the Prophet (S) discouraged his companions to argue about predestination, and instead, encouraged action. So which way will we go? That's our choice. The decision, however, is already known by God. His fore-knowledge does not mean He forced us into doing evil deeds. Why else would He give human beings an original fitrah nature, a predisposition towards monotheism, doing good, etc (there is no "original sin" concept in Islaam)? And how else could He be the Creator, without having unlimited knowledge of His Creation? The fact that there is evil in this world is a testimony of the free will that He has given mankind. But even those who do mischief on earth have the free will to turn their lives around, and we've all seen examples. The best encouragement to think deeply, is the Qur'aan, since much of it is about the unseen, from the Unseen. It was sent as a guide to help us make better decisions, not to tell us that we shouldn't even bother since God already knows where we're going in the end. May Allah guide us, help us do good and increase us in knowledge, aameen. |
| NS |
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