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Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Anonymous
04/14/03 at 13:41:39
Assalaamu alaykum The only reason for this post is to benefit the youth who are trying to get married in areas where they are the minority (ie, Muslims living in America). I've given this advice to some brothers before (most of whom, seem to appreciate knowing this info), since there seems to be a bit of a challenge in terms of getting married for some. Trust me, there are plenty of good sisters out there. Some tips about sisters: 1. Communication: Brothers, please make your intentions clear from the beginning to avoid wasted time. Sisters usually put more on the line when communicating with brothers (ie, reputation, emotions, etc). So please don't waste her time if you have no intention of marrying her. The "intention" does not have to be, 'I'm going to marry you,' since we understand you need to know some basic information before making that decision. But unnecessary small talk and extended periods of communication with a sister is usually more of a waste of time, energy and emotions. Some sisters are just not comfortable with emailing you, and would rather have you go through her family, so keep that in mind. One of the best ways of going about communicating with a sister in regards to "pre-marriage talk" is to first have your family's ok (not sure it's necessary, but some brothers will not go through with proposing to a sister if his family doesn't like her). Then either ask her or someone who knows her, about her. If she meets some basic criteria, then ask her wali for permission to ask more questions or ask her wali for her hand in marriage. Definitely make the istikhaara prayer before and after meeting her (keep in mind, istikhaara is about guidance towards the right decision. It's not necessarily about seeing a "sign" or "dream." So trust in Allah in your decision, and He will straighten your affairs towards what's right). Yes, there's a lot riding on your shoulders, but most of you will go through some rejections before finding your match. Ask any married brother. 2. Don't assume that just because a sister has her Masters or PhD, that she expects the same from you. Some sisters/their parents have that stipulation, but not all. Sisters are mainly looking for a responsible brother, and for most, that doesn't mean an MD or JD. 3. Related to this, most sisters with graduate degrees/good jobs don't want to be the "bread winner" after getting married. That's pretty much your job. And although some sisters feel like they have to find a "well off" brother to marry, that's actually a fault on the sister's part. As long as the brother is responsible, fears God and has some minimum ability to take care of family, he shouldn't be expected to be "well off" by any means, especially not early in his career. A (financially) rich brother means nothing to a pious sister. 4. If a sister seems like she's more "religious" than you, don't be too intimidated. We all have our faults, and one of them is that some sisters want to marry Mr. Perfect (who can teach her more about Islam, cook her dinner and have a perfect job). That's not really realistic and it's another fault some sisters have. There is nothing to say that a woman must marry a husband who is more "learned and religious" than her (although most would prefer that, understandably). He should have good character and fear God, along with basic compatibility. It's also more about common goals of getting where they want to be, together. By the same token, don't expect to have a "smooth" relationship if you marry a sister for her deen, but have no intentions to improve your own. 5. Lastly, try to learn as much Qur'aan and Sunnah as you can before marriage. You can learn together afterwards, but time becomes an even more precious commodity after having a family. Although it is your wife's primary role, it takes two to nurture and teach a family. Btw, a brother who can lead his family in prayer is a big plus (if he can't make it to the masjid for every prayer). So try to take a tajweed course before marriage if you don't already know proper tajweed. It's quick, relatively easy to learn, and the benefits are too numerous to mention here, for you and for your family. If you really want to get married, make du'a and tahhajud prayer, to ask Allah to become among those that He loves. Allah hears your supplications and knows what's best for you. Tie your camel and trust in Allah (you need some action from your part to get things done). Taqwaa is here [in the heart] - The Prophet (pbuh) ws, Your Sister in Islam.

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
jannah
04/15/03 at 00:34:46
[wlm] I think that's some good advice..I agree with most JazakiAllah khair.. Brothers are definitely intimidated if they see a sister as a "really good Muslim" or "really educated". Sadly they don't realize that doesn't mean the sisters have all these great expectations!! But as for communication I think it really depends on alot of factors.. but it is best to find out somehow from the sister what is the best method way etc of asking the family and getting to know her in the right manner.

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Barr
04/18/03 at 11:57:48
[wlm] warahmatullah :) [quote]Brothers are definitely intimidated if they see a sister as a "really good Muslim" or "really educated". [/quote] If a sister is really educated and knowledgable, it doesn't mean that she would most likely to be a bossy, rude and disobedient wife who will walk all over your heads. Whether she is such, would depend on her iman and taqwa. And whether you perceive her to be such, would also depend on your ego. Allahua'lam  :-)
04/18/03 at 11:58:38
Barr

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
siddiqui
04/18/03 at 12:09:39
[slm] [quote]If a sister is really educated and knowledgable, it doesn't mean that she would most likely to be a bossy, rude and disobedient wife who will walk all over your heads. Whether she is such, would depend on her iman and taqwa. And whether you perceive her to be such, would also depend on your ego. [/quote] Thats one way of looking at things and a mighty narrow view in my opinion The other reason could be you think she would deserve someone better, better than you in Imaan,taqwa knowledge education and understanding and you really dont want to shortchange her by proposing to her but desire she gets some one  better than you [wlm]
04/18/03 at 12:28:23
siddiqui

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Maliha
04/18/03 at 12:27:21
[slm] I don't understand how that could be a narrow way of looking at things. I mean how do you define "more" taqwa? Anyone who is truly knowledgable would be very humble about their station. Ideally, a truly knowledgable sister would also be very humble. It's just a sad stigma placed on our sisters, especially if they are active in the community too. So who is to marry them, if every brother thinks they "deserve" someone with "more" taqwa. The ditzy, cute sisters get married wayyy before others who are more deserving in terms of responsiblity and maturity. I think Barr hit it right on the head when she said ego. With such frail egoes our brothers would rather go for sisters that are potentially "not challenging". Its sad. How is that supposed to be encouraging to our younger sisters? Where is the motivation to *want* to better yourself. I went to a Hijab forum two days ago. There was a panel of sisters. And all of them confessed that one of the things that held them from wearing hijaab is that they were afraid of *not* getting married  :o As most brothers in their experience prefer non Hijabis! One girl actually said that a man proposed to her with a condition that she stops covering. It was way beyond me! Subhana Allah. Sis, Maliha [wlm]

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Maliha
04/18/03 at 12:35:46
[slm] Quick Disclaimer before I get a beating: I know not all brothers don't like hijab. Its more of a cultural issue I guess, because where I am from, very few brothers would consider you seriously if you *dont* wear Hijaab. I am very fortunate to be married to someone who loves me for obeying Allah (SWT).  8) Sis, Maliha :-) [wlm]

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
siddiqui
04/18/03 at 12:40:40
[slm] [quote]I don't understand how that could be a narrow way of looking at things[/quote] there is the other side of the coin too,genrealizing in my opinion is having a narrow view point More taqwa/imaan/knowledge /humbleness when you generally see and interact with a person in a halah way you know what they are and you also know where you stand You might desire for so many things in life but you must be realstic and considerate ( of the other person) too Its sad that many brothers donot want a hijaabi but its a fact that many sisters donot want brothers who have beards or are 'very relegious' infact they are looking for some one progressive and balanced Is that Ego? NO in my opinnion it is the degredation of the values of the muslim ummah especially the youth be it a brother or a sister hazaar khwahieshein aiyse ke har khwahiesh par dum nikle bahut nikle mere armaan phir bhi kuch kam nikle I have thousands of desires and each one was breathtaking Many were fulfilled but I still feel unsatisfied [wlm]

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
bhaloo
04/18/03 at 21:36:31
[slm] Huh?  Sister Barr brings up some good points.  It is very sad that people would have these stereoytypes that knowledgable and educated sisters are bossy, rude, and disobedient.  That is like insulting the Muslim women in the west.  There is no correlation whatsoever between getting more education and being bossy, rude, and disobedient.   BTW: I thought anonymous's post was brilliant.

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Barr
04/18/03 at 22:04:30
Assalamu'alaikum :) After a night and half a morning.. thinking where I've gone wrong.... I realised how my post could be generalising. I used "you" in my post, whereas I should have used a less personal indication. Afwan. Let's try this over again, yeah? :) [color=blue]If a sister is really educated and knowledgable, it doesn't mean that she would most likely to be a bossy, rude and disobedient wife who will walk all over her husband's heads. Whether she is such, would depend on her iman and taqwa. And whether her husband perceive her to be such, would also depend on his ego. [/color] Hmmmm...  if its still narrow minded... then.. I guess... we gotta agree to differ :) Wassalam :-) [i]Barr tries to be more sensitive next time[/i] P.S. Br Arshad.. such women do exist in the East too :)
04/18/03 at 22:08:08
Barr

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
bhaloo
04/18/03 at 22:34:57
[slm] [quote author=Barr link=board=bro;num=1050342099;start=0#8 date=04/18/03 at 22:04:30] P.S. Br Arshad.. such women do exist in the East too :)[/quote] Excuse my narrowmindedness.  :P

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
jannah
04/18/03 at 23:54:01
[quote] So who is to marry them, if every brother thinks they "deserve" someone with "more" taqwa.   The ditzy, cute sisters get married wayyy before others who are more deserving in terms of responsiblity and maturity.[/quote] [slm] Wow mystic you could be my life... also many other sisters that I know tell me of the same problem. So what if a sister has some taqwa and is active. That is the kind of person people should marry so that their children actually grow up muslims and she kicks you out of bed to pray fajr.. i mean really. .. I think what's happenning in our communities is that all the girls who are very religious and modest and covering are considered like nuns. They're great and deserve so much respect, brothers don't even say salam to them they are so respectful <sarcasm> and they would never dare propose to them but they go propose to messed up ppl off the street. Every person has things they need to work on and become better Muslims. No one is perfect that I've seen yet walking the earth, so we should both strive to marry the best Muslims we can in the hopes of an example and companion for the journey. So is it that brothers are just trying to be humble and truly, sincerely want someone better for the sister, or is it really about ego and that they really don't WANT to marry someone religious... Allahu alam.. it's a really very very fine line . So fine I think it's even unconscious. anyways i know i'm bitter.. it's ok i've accepted it ... i think :)
04/19/03 at 20:37:19
jannah

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
a_Silver_Rose
04/19/03 at 00:23:26
[slm] Good Advice, Mash'Allah :-* [quote]3. Related to this, most sisters with graduate degrees/good jobs don't want to be the   "bread winner" after getting married. [/quote] Personally I have heard of and noticed many Brothers in the West who think that if sisters have a degree and a job they 'should' contribute in paying the bills, ect. And I have noticed that these 'religious' or even not religious brothers want someone who has a job just incase they can help later on and so the family can afford better house, ect. This tends to really bother me because these 'religious' brothers also expect the cooking , cleaning , taking care of kids, and obeying. (I have read that if your hubs doesnt support you, you dont have to listen to him.)   sheesh how much does a girl gotta do ::) By the way this is the first time Im hearing that Brothers dont want someone w/ hijab ::) I mean i have heard of a minority but it doesnt seem to be majority

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
siddiqui
04/19/03 at 00:29:43
[slm] [quote]Hmmmm...  if its still narrow minded... then.. I guess... we gotta agree to differ   [/quote] sure we do agree sister Barr  :) [quote]So is it that brothers are just trying to be humble and truly, sincerely want someone better for the sister, or is it really about ego and that they really don't WANT to marry someone religious... Allahu alam.. it's a really very very fine line . [/quote] yeps might be a very thin line but the truth would be between them and their lord [quote] anyways i know i'm bitter..[/quote] have a brownie with M&M's on me sister  LOL  ;) May allah swt sweeten things up for you  Ameen [wlm]
04/19/03 at 00:33:59
siddiqui

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
panjul
04/19/03 at 01:11:04
[slm] And I have noticed that these 'religious' or even not religious brothers want someone who has a job just incase they can help later on and so the family can afford better house, ect. I'm glad my husband's not like that. But if he was, I dont care how many degrees i have, if i don't want to work i won't. Unless of course we were starving or something. But to work for the best house, the most expensive car or any of the materialistic ambitions, if a guy wants all that, then let him work for it. It's his duty to provide for his wife and his family. My mom was telling me about someone she knows who called her on the phone crying because her husband beat her for not working! She wanted to stay at home and take care of the kids, she felt it was her first duty, plus she said while she was working her health suffered and she couldn't pay as much attention to her children.  >:(

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
a_Silver_Rose
04/19/03 at 01:19:09
[slm] [quote]My mom was telling me about someone she knows who called her on the phone crying because her husband beat her for not working! She wanted to stay at home and take care of the kids, she felt it was her first duty, plus she said while she was working her health suffered and she couldn't pay as much attention to her children.   [/quote] :( May Allah (swt) help her and make things better for her

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
BrKhalid
04/19/03 at 03:08:45
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]There is nothing to say that a woman must marry a husband who is more "learned and religious" than her (although most would prefer that, understandably). [/quote] Any brother prepared to admit his lack of knowledge and marry a wife more learned than him to better himself is, in my view, more God fearing than the sister herself. But from a practical level, a sister in such a position must be appreciative of the sensitive issue of a husband always taking advice from his wife on Islamic matters because he knows she is more knowledgeable. That's why I say a brother who can do that is a brother worth marrying in the first place. Only problem is that they are like gold dust ;-) [quote]It's also more about common goals of getting where they want to be, together.[/quote] To me that's the key to a successful marriage. There was a great post about this topic by Br Asim on the old board. InshaAllah if I can find it I'll put it up.

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
jannah
04/19/03 at 20:33:43
[slm] Never tell a sister she needs to lose weight.. BEFORE or AFTER the marriage. :o

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
a_Silver_Rose
04/19/03 at 20:40:01
[wlm] [quote]Never tell a sister she needs to lose weight.. BEFORE or AFTER the marriage. [/quote] ok maybe I am a lil diff but I would really really want my hubs to tell me if he wanted me to lose weight or gain it. Same goes for the food. If he doesnt like it,  I need to know so I can make it better. I dont want him to be unhappy and I want him to like what he eats.

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Tesseract
04/19/03 at 22:49:15
Wa'alaikum Assalam wa Rahmatullah, [quote]Never tell a sister she needs to lose weight.. BEFORE or AFTER the marriage. [/quote]          Why not?  ??? What'll happen if someone does? Wassalam.

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
jannah
04/19/03 at 23:10:09
[slm] 8) crazy4islam ur name suits u at least the first part ;) agreed about the food tho but can't husbands be a lil sensitive to her feelings??? bulwark hmmm a. ur never seen again b. ur body is found floating in the hudson c. u never speak again d. ur blacklisted on the sisters worldwide network e. ur wife never lets you forget you made that comment speaking of quiz's remember this :) Men Vs Women......... There are five things that women should never, ever ask a guy, according to an article in an issue of Sassy magazine. The five questions are:   1 -  "What are you thinking?"   2 -  "Do you love me?"   3 -  "Do I look fat?"   4 -  "Do you think she is prettier than me?"   5 -  "What would you do if I died?" What makes these questions so bad is that every one is guaranteed to explode into a major argument and/or divorce if the man does not answer properly, which is to say dishonestly.   For example: 1 -  "What are you thinking?"  The proper answer to this question, of course is, "I'm sorry if I've been pensive, dear.  I was just reflecting on what a warm, wonderful, caring, thoughtful, intelligent, beautiful woman you are and what a lucky guy I am to have met you."  Obviously, this statement bears no resemblance whatsoever to what the guy was really thinking at the time, which was most likely one of five things:        a -  Football        b -  Baseball        c -  How fat you are.        d -  How much prettier she is than you.        e -  How he would spend the insurance money if you died. According to the Sassy article, the best answer to this stupid question came from Al Bundy, of Married With Children, who was asked it by his wife, Peg. "If I wanted you to know," Al said, "I'd be talking instead of thinking." The other questions also have only one right answer but many wrong answers: 2 -  "Do you love me?"  The correct answer to this question is, "Yes." For those guys who feel the need to be more elaborate, you may answer, "Yes, dear." Wrong answers include:        a -  I suppose so.        b -  Would it make you feel better if I said yes.        c -  That depends on what you mean by "love".        d -  Does it matter?        e -  Who, me? 3 -  "Do I look fat?"  The correct male response to this question is to confidently and emphatically state, "No, of course not" and then quickly leave the room.  Wrong answers include:        a -  I wouldn't call you fat, but I wouldn't call you thin             either.        b -  Compared to what?        c -  A little extra weight looks good on you.        d -  I've seen fatter.        e -  Could you repeat the question?  I was thinking about            your insurance policy. 4 -  "Do you think she's prettier than me?"  The "she" in the question could be an ex-girlfriend, a passer-by you were staring at so hard that you almost caused a traffic accident or an actress in a movie you just saw.  In any case, the correct response is, "No, you are much prettier." Wrong answers include:         a -  Not prettier, just pretty in a different way.         b -  I don't know how one goes about rating such things.         c -  Yes, but I bet you have a better personality.         d -  Only in the sense that she's younger and thinner.         e -  Could you repeat the question?  I was thinking about            your insurance policy. 5 -  "What would you do if I died?"  Correct answer:  "Dearest love, in the event of your untimely demise, life would cease to have meaning for me and I would perforce hurl myself under the front tires of the first Domino's Pizza truck that came my way."   This might be the stupidest question of the lot, as is illustrated by the following stupid joke:     "Dear," said the wife.  "What would you do if I died?"     "Why, dear, I would be extremely upset," said the husband.     "Why do you ask such a question?"     "Would you remarry?"  persevered the wife.     "No, of couse not, dear" said the husband.     "Don't you like being married?" said the wife.     "Of course I do, dear" he said.     "Then why wouldn't you remarry?"     "Alright," said the husband, "I'd remarry."     "You would?" said the wife, looking vaguely hurt.     "Yes" said the husband.     "Would you sleep with her in our bed?" said the wife after a       long pause.     "Well yes, I suppose I would."  replied the husband.     "I see," said the wife indignantly. "And would you let her       wear my old clothes?"     "I suppose, if she wanted to" said the husband.     "Really," said the wife icily.  "And would you take down the       pictures of me and replace them with pictures of her?"     "Yes.  I think that would be the correct thing to do."     "Is that so?"  said the wife, leaping to her feet.  "And I      suppose you'd let her play with my golf clubs, too."     "Of course not, dear," said the husband.  "She's left-handed."      [ ]

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
siddiqui
04/19/03 at 23:26:07
[slm] LOL! jazakallah khair for making my day  :-/ [wlm]

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Al-Basha
04/19/03 at 23:34:57
[slm] I should really find out if Shaikh Jassim Al Mutwa3a's tape on the Secrets of a successfully Marriage are translated into English. Below are two secrets that he's described if husbands & wives understand they'll be able to figure out their problems a lot better: Secret #1: Husbands prove their self worth, by what they produce. Yah well when I first heard this i was like whaaaaaaaaat, then i sat down and thought about (and listened to the rest of the tape) and realized yah its true. Some guys think that all you need are flowers and a box of chocolates to make your wife happy. Why? Look at rule #1 again  8) Secret #2 Wives proves herself to her husband by relying on him. Again when I heard this I was like hmm, is this true? Well just take a look at the "Do I look fat" question. That's a prime example of Rule #2. This I think (wa Allahu A3laam) is the wifes way of saying "hey im seeking reassurance from you that love me." Now the shaikh didn't give this example, for secret #2 but he did talk about something similar. He said he's heard complaints from wives who cook these amazing meals and the husband eats and she asks him how it is and he says "good" or worse yet "wheres my fork?". The shaikh says "good" isn't enough. Husbands need to say a lot more than just good. Same goes for the "Do I look fat" question. Saying "No" doesn't do it either. Give details, say how lovely she looks even if she isn't the most glamorous person in the world. Besides if you're comparing her to some TV media-slave then I'd say you've got problems ...
04/19/03 at 23:41:13
Al-Basha

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
a_Silver_Rose
04/20/03 at 00:22:14
[slm] [quote]crazy4islam ur name suits u at least the first part  agreed about the food tho but can't husbands be a lil sensitive to her feelings  [/quote] :o uhoh thanx so sweet of you ::) ;D I read something in the old board about how we should take use of the constructive criticism from the hubs to make ourself better. But yah i agree bout the second part of what you said ;) Husbands should use hikma (wisdom) when dealing w/ their wives so the feelings do not get hurt. ur crzy sis  ::) ps the above (about 'what would you do if I die') was a classic :-/
04/20/03 at 00:26:48
a_Silver_Rose

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Barr
04/20/03 at 09:28:08
[slm] warahmatullah :) [quote]Personally I have heard of and noticed many Brothers in the West who think that if sisters have a degree and a job they 'should' contribute in paying the bills, ect. And I have noticed that these 'religious' or even not religious brothers want someone who has a job just incase they can help later on and so the family can afford better house, ect. [/quote] I do agree that one shouldn't be an opportunist when it comes to marriage. That is just pure unmanly. But more often than not, I think wanting a better standard of living would be a preferred way of life for both husband and wife. What is important is that the husband takes full concern of his responsibility to provide nafkah (basic maintenance) for his family. On the other hand, I think sisters may also want to look at the other side of the coin. If we want to work, and if we do work, I think its just being thoughtful and concerned for the family if we do contribute to the family finances. At the end of the day, we do have to acknowledge that it also depends on the permission of our husbands that we are able to work. And I think its just being grateful, and unselfish if we do contribute to the family, instead of keeping the money for ourselves. Pls note that I'm not talking of nafkah, but the other extra things that both would want for the family that is outside the boundaries of nafkah... be it a better house,  a better car, or simply, a higher quality of education for the children, that we can contribute to. His money is his responsibility for the family. Our money is contribution. Allahua'lam  :-)

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
mr-bean
04/20/03 at 10:08:46
[quote author=Barr link=board=bro;num=1050342099;start=15#23 date=04/20/03 at 09:28:08] I do agree that one shouldn't be an opportunist when it comes to marriage. That is just pure unmanly. [/quote] i don't think that is really fair.... not every guy is a doctor or big shot lawyer or works on wall street and is pulling down 150K.... to send a kid to college nowadays cost around  200K, and if you have 3 kids -- that's 600K down the drain just for university.....how are you going to pay for that?   you might tell your kids that they should go to a cheap college like an in state college or community college, but is that fair?  people say that there are lots of scholarships....but in reality there are very few for any big money, and you only get real financial aid if you go to harvard or yale...and even then...i remember my financial aid package when i was a freshman was a measly $500 ...i guess the moral of the story is that all you gals who don't wanna work should marry doctors or guys on wall street :) happy hunting!
04/20/03 at 10:15:23
mr-bean

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Barr
04/20/03 at 10:32:03
[quote]i don't think that is really fair.... [/quote] Subhanallah! Wot did I say?  :o  ??? Didn't my post complement yours? (well, for most of the points, except for marrying a doctor :P) I understand that a brother's financial responsibilities shoots right up when he gets married. But being an opportunist is different from wanting what is good for the family. Y does it seem like I get into a brother's nerve, each time I post at Ikhwan?  :( wassalam
04/20/03 at 10:38:25
Barr

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
mr-bean
04/20/03 at 10:53:08
[quote author=Barr link=board=bro;num=1050342099;start=15#25 date=04/20/03 at 10:32:03] Subhanallah! Wot did I say?  :o  ??? Didn't my post complement yours? (well, for most of the points, except for marrying a doctor :P) Y does it seem like I get into a brother's nerve, each time I post at Ikhwan?  :( [/quote] ...all i said was that i didn't think the comment about oportunism was fair...i wasn't being particularly critical...it was just a comment because some of the guys who i know of who get called opurtunistic often aren't  being that oppurtunistic but kindof practical...note i am not talking about *some* deshi boys from overseas who have a certain caveman mentality where they want the food on the table, then a foot massage and then the gal to pay the bills :)  [no offense meant to all the ethnics from overseas :) ] no need to get offended sister barr, no need to bar yourself from this section.....:)
04/20/03 at 14:01:02
mr-bean

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
sofia
04/20/03 at 13:11:29
As-salaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullaah, [quote] That is just pure unmanly. [/quote] Allah A'lim, it's all based on intentions (as I think Mr. Bean was trying to say), but for the most part, I couldn't agree with you more, Barr. [quote] i guess the moral of the story is that all you gals who don't wanna work should marry doctors or guys on wall street [/quote] For brothers who'd prefer their wife bring in some type of income, I hope you're prepared to have a nanny and maid, since apparently, your wife will be taking time away from her home and family (her true jihaad). There are plenty of sisters who would probably be fine with that, just as there are sisters out there who are not looking for Mr. Wall Street and would not give up taking care of her family. To each his/her own. Alhamdulillah, Allah is best to decide our true responsibilities.
NS
04/20/03 at 13:13:58
sofia

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
mr-bean
04/20/03 at 14:19:53
[quote author=sofia link=board=bro;num=1050342099;start=15#27 date=04/20/03 at 13:11:29]As-salaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullaah, I hope you're prepared to have a nanny and maid, since apparently, your wife will be taking time away from her home and family (her true jihaad). [/quote] .....i think this is the future...i have always felt that moms had much better things to do than wash dishes and clean the house....what's wrong with having a maid...?...and as i am sure you know there are are many legal rules obligating the hubby to provide mrs wifey with a servant... i mean the whole name of the modern game is specialization: everybody should do  what they do best -- that's how society as a whole progresses.....as far as i understand moms are best at parenting....and stuff they were specially educated to do....like well  i don't know.... and not washing dishes or washing the floor......why waste their time with that? another pet peeve i have is about cooking....what is the point of spending so much time cooking.  the point of life is not to [i]live to eat  but to eat to live[/i].  also food just goes in........and then comes out eight hours later :) what is the point of spending so much effort on it.  i know in my culture women spend half the day cooking....:(....what is the point?....in my opinion there should be some centralized kitchen service....where people are specially employed to cook for whole neighborhoods and then that food is sent out to each house each day....isn't that much more civilized then each household individually cooking 3 individual meals....efficiency comes from mass production....not everybody doing the same thing without cooperation....success is in cooperation....or having one of those food processers shown on strek trek - the next generation ! i know most of you will think i am mad....and i suppose the fact that i only eat cereal (and like eating only cereal) and the fact that we had a nanny and have servants has something to do with this....but because of that my mom has been able to be an extremely active women in her community and is now building a girls high school   :) my parents are kinda cool...(even though i am perpetually in trouble with them )
NS
04/20/03 at 14:27:22
mr-bean

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
a_Silver_Rose
04/21/03 at 00:17:27
[slm] ok this is what im trying to say.  My point is that it is the mans responiblilty to provide for the family. It is the womans responisibiity to take care of the house. Alot of men lately want to work but alsooo want the woman to work and take care of the house. Think about it they are both coming home tired. They expect the woman to please the husband and take care of him and cook, ect but also work! The man only has to work. Now if the woman wants to work herself w/ the hubs permission thas fine. Now marrying a doctor? why? noway as long as I have my needs, i dont need the wants. It is important that the husband works thats it. Whether he makes little or more is not the point.  One person should be home with the kids. (my opinion) . Thats right that when a woman works shes contributing and when the man works hes doing his job....but dont you think she should contribute more in the household duties and her kids (where shes needed most>?) (so there is a balance)It seems like nowadays the woman is pressured to contribute to the family plus do her household duties. Plus a woman goes through a lot of internal problems , for example pregnancy, and she also has to nurse the child. The man does not go through all of this. Woman and men are different so the woman should not have to work. I mean if woman have to equally pay the bills then is it fair that men dont go through pregnancy, ect? This is also why a woman goes through alot of stress and she starts 'nagging' as they say. [quote]But more often than not, I think wanting a better standard of living would be a preferred way of life for both husband and wife. [/quote] In my opinion a better standard of living does not bring happiness.  Isnt the parents attention . and one person at home who can take care of the other person thats tired more important.? When they both come home tired there is not much time for the kids. Now Im not saying that woman shouldnt work. If they want to thats fine. But what bothers me is that some men dont understand that the woman is doing two jobs and plus she goes through alot of woman problems. To even think that woman should work so they can afford a better house, or better car is wrong in my opinion. Now if she is doing it because she loves to or to fulfill her dream, or she personally wants to help out (and shes got the time) then thats different.
04/21/03 at 15:25:14
a_Silver_Rose

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
a_Silver_Rose
04/21/03 at 00:48:13
[slm] [quote]For brothers who'd prefer their wife bring in some type of income, I hope you're prepared to have a nanny and maid, since apparently, your wife will be taking time away from her home and family (her true jihaad). There are plenty of sisters who would probably be fine with that, just as there are sisters out there who are not looking for Mr. Wall Street and would not give up taking care of her family. To each his/her own.   Alhamdulillah, Allah is best to decide our true responsibilities. [/quote] SubhanAllah! Exactly! :) [quote]i mean the whole name of the modern game is specialization: everybody should do  what they do best -- that's how society as a whole progresses.....as far as i understand moms are best at parenting....and stuff they were specially educated to do....like well  i don't know.... and not washing dishes or washing the floor......why waste their time with that? [/quote] (trust me i wont mind having a maid) but personally in my opinion because it is their house....and who is the one that is gonna clean the house the best? (the persn who lives in it, ofcourse) Its not wasting time, its preventing the family from diseases and so the family can come home in a nice clean atomosphere. plus if your hubs doesnt make much then why waste his money on a maid when you can do it yourself. [quote]another pet peeve i have is about cooking....what is the point of spending so much time cooking.  the point of life is not to live to eat  but to eat to live.  also food just goes in........and then comes out eight hours later :) what is the point of spending so much effort on it.  i know in my culture women spend half the day cooking....:(....what is the point?....in my opinion there should be some centralized kitchen service....where people are specially employed to cook for whole neighborhoods and then that food is sent out to each house each day....isn't that much more civilized then each household individually cooking 3 individual meals....efficiency comes from mass production....not everybody doing the same thing without cooperation....success is in cooperation....or having one of those food processers shown on strek trek - the next generation [/quote] lol :-/ not a bad idea but the reason why cooking is so important is because what goes in your body is everything. It is what helps your kids grow physically and mentally. It is also so important because how you eat also depends on how your health is gonna be. [quote]you might tell your kids that they should go to a cheap college like an in state college or community college, but is that fair?  people say that there are lots of scholarships....but in reality there are very few for any big money, and you only get real financial aid if you go to harvard or yale...and even then...i remember my financial aid package when i was a freshman was a measly $500  [/quote] IN my opinion there is nothing unfair and there is nothing wrong with a community college. personaly a good college in my opinion is all about name...they all give you a degree and lead you to a job and thats what realy matters. [quote]i guess the moral of the story is that all you gals who don't wanna work should marry doctors or guys on wall street   happy hunting!    [/quote] Dont forget that the prophet [saw] wasnt a doctor and his wives did not work.  Dont forget that  the prophet [saw] is our example and dont forget that Allah (swt) is the One who made the man responsible to provide and woman responsible of the kids. For Allah (swt) is the One who knows whats right/best for us. This is a balancing household.
04/21/03 at 01:54:21
a_Silver_Rose

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
BrKhalid
04/21/03 at 04:10:26
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) A couple of concerns I have with this thread: [quote]There are plenty of sisters who would probably be fine with that, just as there are sisters out there who are not looking for Mr. Wall Street [/quote] Can we add Mr Fifth Avenue and Mr Times Square in there as well? ;-) [quote]my parents are kinda cool[/quote] How on earth then did they get a son who turned out like Mr Bean??? ;) Okay joking aside I think a lot comes down to each individual couple and what works for them so in a sense it's quite hard to generalise. What works for some may not necessarily work for others. But what you do need from each spouse is a recognition of each other's duties and rights. With that as a starting point all other matters can inshaAllah be worked out. ;-) PS Sr Barr carry on posting. You're like an honourary brother in this place ;)

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Barr
04/21/03 at 07:20:47
[slm] warahmatullah :) Sis Crazy4Islam, I totally understand wot U're saying. And I don't disagree with most of your points. Wot is important is that each of us know wot our roles are as husbands and wives, and that we don't "manipulate" each other to suit our own needs. In a nutshell, Br Khalid has said, wot I've wanted to say. A partnership and a life shared together in marriage, needs to have shura and agreement between both partners on how they would want to orientate and live their lives, whether its the standard of living that they want to achieve, or other priorities in life. Its abt having a shared vision, on how they want to live on earth, in a journey to gain success in the Hereafter. With no shared vision, and no recognition of each other's rights and responsibilities then, things would go topsy turvy. [quote]i have always felt that moms had much better things to do than wash dishes and clean the house[/quote] I remembered going to a camp, while I was still a student. We usually have a slot on "Baitul Muslim" (trans. A Muslim Home ie marriage). And the brother who was giving the talk was saying that how sisters who are active, should *ahem* "demand"  ;D from their husbands, all the latest gadgets and things that would help them in the kitchen and for other household chores. For the time that they have shouldn't be spent too much in the kitchen, for there are so many other things to do. If it took our mothers 4 hours to cook, then, we should be smart enough to be able to cook for an hour, instead. Subhanallah, when he talks about his wife, who is a dentist, and a very active sister, mashaAllah... U can see so much love and admiration that he has for her. Oh yeah... he's a doctor by the way :P [quote]Sr Barr carry on posting. You're like an honourary brother in this place ;)[/quote] Hmmm.. thanks, akhi.. I think I'll take it as a compliment for the honourary part. but.. ermmm.. I'm not sure abt the brother bit, though. Maybe, I need to grow a beard or smt.. but I dunno.. I may chase brothers away instead. Virtually Neat Beard Sis!  :-)

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
sofia
04/21/03 at 12:12:17
As-salaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah, [quote]Can we add Mr Fifth Avenue and Mr Times Square in there as well?[/quote] Yes. Seriously tho, I know of sisters who have considered brothers who were not working at the time. In the end, they decided against it, only after realizing the brothers really had no direction in life, concerned they'd have to support their husband (they didn't have as big an issue of temporarily supporting him). It's a legit concern. Allahu A'lim. Anyways, doesn't necessarily detract from the sisters who do want a Mr. 5th Ave, unfortunately. [quote]as far as i understand moms are best at parenting[/quote] So, what happened to her working outside the home to help with the college funding? [Interestingly, whenever there are differences of opinions on this board, it always seems like the argument is basically for the same main point, details aside] I mentioned the bit about a maid/nanny because it's not necessarily the "norm" in the states. However, I don't know of a  sister who is against the idea of changing that "norm" (I believe a husband is only obliged to provide a maid if it's a social norm where they live, they can afford it, etc. Allahu A'lim). My only concern was: It's easy to simplify a woman's "role" (at home; like a man, her role is not confined to inside/outside of the home) to cooking & cleaning, if it's not well-understood. These tasks may/may not even be part of it. It's the larger issue -- ramifications to the family when both parents work -- that I was thinking of. Allahu A'lim.
04/21/03 at 12:13:57
sofia

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
siddiqui
04/21/03 at 12:18:13
[slm] [quote]needs to have shura [/quote] Hope they dont like the monthly shura meetings in my masjid here  :-/ May Allah swt bless us all Ameen [wlm]

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Maliha
04/21/03 at 12:40:45
[slm] I totally agree with Sofia :) For the sake of better standards of living, so many couples go out to work. Leaving their children at the hands of nanny's, day care centers, etc. The big issue with that, especially in America, is leaving our beautiful little minds to Non Muslims. They socialize with other kids who as young as 3 year old, have already started talking about "boy friends" I am seriously not exagerrating! (My friends' 3 year old came home from day care telling her mom, her friend has a boyfriend!!!!" okay, what is the main role of a woman? Cooking and cleaning aside (which is not even an obligation on her), its nurturing! The education of our young ones, are at on the laps of the mothers, and when the mothers are absent who is left to educate the child? Who is left to provide guidance, wisdom, direction? I am not saying a woman should not do anything but stay home, but in anything that she does, she should certainly recognize her main responsiblity is to her home. Her husband, and her children, her palace. That in itself is *hard* work, and a Jihaad. And Allah Knows Best. Sis, Maliha [wlm]
04/21/03 at 12:43:13
Maliha

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
jannah
04/21/03 at 18:19:52
[wlm] [quote] A partnership and a life shared together in marriage, needs to have shura and agreement between both partners on how they would want to orientate and live their lives, whether its the standard of living that they want to achieve, or other priorities in life.  Its abt having a shared vision, on how they want to live on earth, in a journey to gain success in the Hereafter.[/quote] That's beautiful sis ;) May He give you that type of healthy marriage and all of us ameen.

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
jaihoon
04/22/03 at 01:00:50
[quote author=Mystic link=board=bro;num=1050342099;start=30#35 date=04/21/03 at 12:40:45] I am not saying a woman should not do anything but stay home, but in anything that she does, she should certainly recognize her main responsiblity is to her home. Her husband, and her children, her palace. That in itself is *hard* work, and a Jihaad. [/quote] Very much true. Th priority is the most important thing (probably coz its to do witht he niyya which itself precedes our actions  ???

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Al-Basha
04/22/03 at 03:58:43
[slm] [quote author=mr-bean link=board=bro;num=1050342099;start=15#24 date=04/20/03 at 10:08:46] to send a kid to college nowadays cost around  200K, and if you have 3 kids -- that's 600K down the drain just for university.....how are you going to pay for that?   [/quote] Ugh exactly what university is that bro?  ???  $200 G's is like enough for ALL 3 kids. You gotta be kidding me, if anyone spends that amount of money going to university then they're loco ...  :o And what's wrong with going to a community college? Why should anyone spend mucho deniro on university lower division courses that are identical to CC courses? CC is not only for ppl who didn't do well in high school, I know many a 4.0GPA student who decided to go to CC for smaller classes sizes and cheaper costs.   All in all your arguments are totally flawed ...

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
se7en
04/22/03 at 04:26:43
as salaamu alaykum, Just three quick tips for brothers looking to get hitched: -- Offer to let her speak with your friends and family, even if they may say things embarassing about you.  She will feel *a lot* more assured knowing that you have nothing to hide from her. -- Don't assume that because a sister looks 'simple', 'sweet', or 'innocent' that she is.  Some sisters have it down to an art  ::)  Make sure you know what a sister is really about, and what she is really looking for, before getting caught up in what her family is like, her reputation, etc. --- Also just a general tip on women... don't ever ever EVER in the process of ANYTHING call a woman "emotional".  If you choose to do so, hide *anything* - forks, knives, irons, frying pans, plants, cats, etc that may be in the vicinity and could be possibly thrown at your head. wasalaamu alaykum :-)
04/22/03 at 04:45:31
se7en

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
jaihoon
04/22/03 at 06:32:34
[quote author=se7en link=board=bro;num=1050342099;start=30#39 date=04/22/03 at 04:26:43]as salaamu alaykum, --- Also just a general tip on women... don't ever ever EVER in the process of ANYTHING call a woman "emotional". [/quote] ??? why's that... when most are?  ::)

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
mr-bean
04/22/03 at 06:43:04
[quote author=Al-Basha link=board=bro;num=1050342099;start=30#38 date=04/22/03 at 03:58:43] [slm] Ugh exactly what university is that bro?  ???  $200 G's is like enough for ALL 3 kids. You gotta be kidding me, if anyone spends that amount of money going to university then they're loco ...  :o And what's wrong with going to a community college? Why should anyone spend mucho deniro on university lower division courses that are identical to CC courses? CC is not only for ppl who didn't do well in high school, I know many a 4.0GPA student who decided to go to CC for smaller classes sizes and cheaper costs.   All in all your arguments are totally flawed ...[/quote] ...tis not fair to your kids to send then to community college if they are smart enough to go to harvard or a decent ivy league college or a place like berkeley.....i know of consciencious muslim families with 4-5 kids like that and the parents spent most of their money sending their kids to such places....and at 150 -200K a shot....! ...also...tis because muslims have such a lack of emphasis on education ...and because other minorities have such an emphasis on education....that our cousins (the yahud) and the neighbors of some of us (the hindus)  -- that the jews and the hindus control the intelligentsia of the US and the UK ....so you muslims...don't whine about the the jews and hindus controlling the media and the financial institutions if you guys are too cheap to give  your kids the best education that money can buy.... a related point is...at a decent uni say like oxford, none of the muslims who did a undergrad degree last year (in the uk you don't pay)  except for one, wanted to do a post-grad degree....all of them wanted to go to the city (wall street, etc) and make money....nobody was interested in further education....so if all the muslim so called elite are always chasing money (working for someone else)....how are they ever going to build themselves up to become important players on the cultural, intellectual and financial scene of great britain.... answer:...never....(my opinion)....but the hindus already are.... ...apologies for all the people i unintentionally insulted....:) ps: if you're interested -- look at the boards of the fastest rising high tech companies (the guys who founded and control the companies)....how many muslims are there?  and how many hindus are there....?  answer: a small handful of muslims and large armfulls of hindus....
04/22/03 at 06:59:37
mr-bean

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
tq
04/22/03 at 08:45:38
Assalamo elikuim ".... and one person at home who can take care of the other person thats tired more important .... " I disagree here - staying at home != resting/relaxing   :)!! I have been on both sides, working and staying at home, I will not say not-working :) , as many house wives/mothers can tell that staying at home is more work then working outside of home :) Also may be I am living on different planet but most of the brothers I have seen want college educated wives but they dont want them to work ( I guess they equate working with more demanding/independent/not caring enough/ignoring them etc) Whether a wife works or not it is her duty to take care of kids also whether husband makes 100k or 10k it is his duty to provide basic necessity for his family. But ofcourse husband wife are one team not against each other. So if for some reason husband cannot make enough (despite his best efforts) then the  wife should help him also if for some reason wife cannot take care of kids well (health issue etc ) then husband should help . In Quran, the relation of husband and wife is define best where it is says that husband and wife are garments of each other.(maybe somebody can just post the ayah (Have to rush sadaq-e-jariah #2 is calling :) )) That is the best definition I ahve ever seen- explains perfectly Wasalam tq
04/22/03 at 08:47:21
tq

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Tesseract
04/22/03 at 09:19:31
Assalamu 'alaikum,          [quote] Don't assume that because a sister looks 'simple', 'sweet', or 'innocent' that she is.  Some sisters have it down to an art  [/quote]               :o :o :o :o Things that brothers learn.          [quote]Also just a general tip on women... don't ever ever EVER in the process of ANYTHING call a woman "emotional".  If you choose to do so, hide *anything* - forks, knives, irons, frying pans, plants, cats, etc that may be in the vicinity and could be possibly thrown at your head.[/quote]             And please make sure that u are on ground floor when u say that, because u can be thrown out of the window too  :P. Good Luck brothers  8). Wassalam.

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
bhaloo
04/22/03 at 09:42:10
[slm] [quote author=mr-bean link=board=bro;num=1050342099;start=30#41 date=04/22/03 at 06:43:04] ...tis not fair to your kids to send then to community college if they are smart enough to go to harvard or a decent ivy league college or a place like berkeley.....i know of consciencious muslim families with 4-5 kids like that and the parents spent most of their money sending their kids to such places....and at 150 -200K a shot....! .[/quote] 200k  :o :o :o  That's crazy.  What a complete waste of money for anyone to do that.  There is no difference between harvard or ivy league and some community college.  Why do people get caught up in showing off and trying to compete to send their children to these expensive universities.  You hear things like, "My son goes to HAAAHVARD.  Hmmmph, well mine is a Yale man."  Seriously, if you look at the curriculums and what is taught in them, and the course materials used, its the same.   Besides who has 200k to throw around like that?  If they take loans by the time they graduate, they are so much in debt, that they'll be paying loans for the rest of the lives and struggling, while the person that graduated from community college will be the successful one.

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
mr-bean
04/22/03 at 09:57:19
[quote author=bhaloo link=board=bro;num=1050342099;start=30#44 date=04/22/03 at 09:42:10][slm] 200k  :o :o :o  That's crazy.  What a complete waste of money for anyone to do that.  There is no difference between harvard or ivy league and some community college.  Why do people get caught up in showing off and trying to compete to send their children to these expensive universities.  You hear things like, "My son goes to HAAAHVARD.  Hmmmph, well mine is a Yale man."  Seriously, if you look at the curriculums and what is taught in them, and the course materials used, its the same.   [/quote] you are wrong....very wrong....the point of fancy universities is that if you are really bright then those fancy unis really help to develop your  gifts.... a cc will teach  you lots of standard and useful stuff....but its not going to change the way you think or really stretch you to the max of your abilities....and a lot of the reason is simply the atmosphere...being around lots of other really clever people.... ...anyhow....

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Maliha
04/22/03 at 10:06:05
[slm] I dont' get it...I went to a regular ole state school, and that was a big waste of my time ::) I mean how much do we really learn in terms of *real* knowledge that stays with you forever while you are in college? Not much in my experience. I learnt a whole lot outside the classroom, etc but those "growing up" lessons, I couldda learnt anywhere. That time in a human's life is when you deal with a lot of "real" questions, and you try to figure out your place in this dunya. In college no real direction is given, so many people go along and get lost somewhere in the midst of distractions and empty rhetoric. I wish I had spent that time and energy investing in real Ilm, and developing my soul...but if wishes were horses..huh? I don't diss fancy schools, but if I were to go to one, they better pay for me..and in this case my children. I wouldn't fork out that much money on a standardized packaged education that will not do much in the long run...while many of brothers and sisters are dying across the world, for a dollar more or less. Anywayz, jus' my two cents....but i don't know much anywayz... Sis-I-didn't-graduate-from-ivy-league-school, Maliha :-) [wlm]

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Barr
04/22/03 at 11:34:43
Assalamu'alaikum :-) I think many of us would agree that seeking knowledge is not just a mere process that we have to go through for a good job with big bucks. That would just undermine and disintergrate the potential strength, power and beauty of knowledge. Being parents, the knowledge that we want to invest in our children would be one of our utmost priority.. for wot is a person without ilm, and wot is a person, without a heart that seeks ilm? And many a time, some Muslims would think that knowledge is probably just a piece of paper from a university that can gurantee a good life for the child and this just narrows down and simplisticly stunts the growth of the child. On the other hand, many of us, still basks in the glory of our past scholars who excel in seeking and discovering the knowledge of this world and the Hereafter, yet we sometimes, limit ourselves to mediocre investments for our children's education. I won't go into the debate of which uni is better or wot knowledge is. But my question is... if we do believe how knowledge would shape our children to optimise their role as vicegerants of Allah in this world, and be strong assets for the ummah... then, wouldn't it be something worth investing? I would. Sometimes, I feel that, we have been brought up with a crutch mentality to depend on others, instead of taking charge and sacrificing, for the benefits of our own selves. Its just not about having children who excel being stretegically placed intellectuals. And its not about having chidlren who excel being a tahajjud expert. But those who excel in whatever gifts Allah has given them, yet, embedded with knowledge that gives them power to improve the state that we are in, with humility and tranquility radiating from their souls. Taken from Ummwafi's signature of Prof Al Attas's quote in his book Prolegomena to metaphysics of Islam (ISTAC publiction) [i]"Knowledge is the arrival of meaning into the soul and the arrival of soul into meaning. Meaning is understanding and accepting the position of things in the order of Creation and the position of Allah in the order of Existence"[/i] So... how much do we really want to invest from our own selves for our children's education, for them to know, wot knowledge, and its implementation really is? May Allah give me strength and protect me from not doing wot I say Allahua'lam  :-)
04/22/03 at 11:50:16
Barr

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
sofia
04/22/03 at 13:10:54
As-salaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah, Excellent points, Barr, mashaa'Allah. Not that it matters, but went to a private univ which may as well have been a state/community college (ie, I don't promote private universities, at least not for undergraduate studies. Hind-sight is 20-20). And not that I do/don't promote grad school (private or public), but that's when I felt my mind was at all "stretched," at least expanding-skills-and-secular-knowledge-that-can-be-used-practically-wise.  But to each his own. Now if only we could put as much time and effort into Islaamic sciences -- we'd have a whole different ummah. We need to work on getting more balanced, inshaa'Allah. Anyhow, to relate this to the original post: ask a potential what his/her definition of "success" is. At least you'll have an idea. Allahu A'lim. [btw--interesting how it's only threads that have to do with sports and marriage that are "on fire" in the Ikhwaan folder] :)
04/22/03 at 13:11:36
sofia

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Anonymous
04/22/03 at 22:56:51
[slm] [quote]1. Communication: Brothers, please make your intentions clear from the beginning to avoid wasted time. Sisters usually put more on the line when communicating with brothers (ie, reputation, emotions, etc).[/quote]   Mmm-hmm... I've had brothers "test" me in the past...sometimes quite harshly.  They used to (with the help of their friends) devise ways of assessing me in particular situations (eg provoking an argument to see how I would react, etc) Me being the simpleton I am, failed to catch on to their labyrinthine schemes...They always told me it was because they wanted to "sound me out" and be sure that I was "for real"... "My niyah's pure sis, really - I'm not trying to hurt you..." But it hurt, bro, it did. They told me that it's permissible to lie in certain situations, and that their designs were therefore legitimate - first I've heard of that...does anyone know anything about it? All I know is that the heartbreak and injured pride that follows such things is a wound that takes a loong while to heal... [wlm]

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
a_Silver_Rose
04/22/03 at 23:26:36
[slm] [quote]Mmm-hmm... I've had brothers "test" me in the past...sometimes quite harshly. They used to (with   the help of their friends) devise ways of assessing me in particular situations (eg provoking an argument to see how I would react, etc) Me being the simpleton I am, failed to catch on to their labyrinthine schemes...They always told me it was because they wanted to "sound me out" and be sure that I was "for real"... "My niyah's pure sis, really - I'm not trying to hurt you..."  But it hurt, bro, it did. They told me that it's permissible to lie in certain situations, and that their designs were therefore legitimate - first I've heard of that...does anyone know anything about it? All I know is that the heartbreak and injured pride that follows such things is a wound that takes a loong while to heal... [/quote] Im very sorry to hear that sister. In Islam one is only allowed to lie to spare feelings and to unite people. [i]Sahih Muslim has it here: Book 032, Number 6303: Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).[/i] The Prophet  [saw] ordered men to treat woman kindly [i]"I command you to treat women kindly. Woman has been created from a rib (the rib is crooked), and the most crooked part of the rib is the upper region. If you try to make it straight you will break it, and if you leave it as it is, it will remain curved. So treat women kindly." (Reported by Al-Bukhari) [/i] Allah (swt) says: [i]"O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness..." (An-Nisa’ 4:19)[/i] I believe since they were somtimes being harsh and lying (doesnt seem to be aloud in this case), this is very unislamic. and Allah (swt) knows best May Allah (swt) protect you and keep you happy your sister
04/24/03 at 15:27:28
a_Silver_Rose

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
panjul
04/23/03 at 00:18:58
[slm] ...tis not fair to your kids to send then to community college if they are smart enough to go to harvard or a decent ivy league college I go to a community college. and i'm very smart, even if i say so myself.  ;D  :P  Community college is much cheaper and you can be a big fish in a small pond. You can essentially transfer your credits to a 4-year university. They really don't care where you start out, what matters is where you end up. If you can get the same curriculum that they teach at higher universities, why waste your hard earned money? That to me seems like the logical thing to do. It's called bargain shopping. Can you get the same thing for much cheaper? Also, there are lots of oppertunities at community colleges and you don't have to compete with 20,000 or 40,000 thousand students to get them. You can compete with 10,000 ( my community college population). Scheduling is flexible too; the best part about it. I'm inshallah going to transfer next summer, and mashallah my record is so good  ;) I'm getting offers from the best. But i'm going to go to UH. It's a regular old college. Why? Cuz, i'm getting my Bachelors in journalism and political science only. Now, the most important thing is my Law studies. And *that's* where i'm going to put my money at. I don't need to go to an ivy leauge school to learn how to write. I learned that in high school and won awards for it. I don't need to take composition classes to learn where to put my commas at. I learned that too. (i mean, this is the internet so i don't pay attention to what i type) i have internships available to me. I don't need to go to an ivy leauge school to analyze politics or remember history. To me that's like a 6th sense. What i need practice at is law, certainly--and that's where my money is going to go. ...also...tis because muslims have such a lack of emphasis on education ...and because other minorities have such an emphasis on education.... Really? I know more muslim with doctorates than non-muslims. Maybe that's the case in England. Over here in the US, Muslims tend to be *very* educated. I think i also read somewhere that Muslims in London are not as educated as Muslims in the US.

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
mr-bean
04/23/03 at 03:36:03
[slm] Don't take things so personally.  I wasn't dissing community colleges.  How do you know I or my siblings or my parents didn't go to a community college?   It's just that  I thought the point of having kids was to try to give them a better life than you had.  Do you really want your kids to go to community college?  People go to community college because its  a  good education and its cheap, but all of you (because you are smart and successful),  I am sure will have lots of money.  So where would you rather invest your hard earned money?  In a big house and a cool car or your kids education?  There are lots of parents who are barely educated, who didn't even finish primary school, let alone college, who are willing to spend their savings on their kids education, and deep down they don't do it because of  "status reasons". American muslims are more educated that British muslims.  But still American muslims are a lot less educated then Hindus and Jews.   Look at the entering class of say Stanford or MIT.  About 20% are Jewish and 15% are Hindu.  Perhaps less than 1% are muslims who grew up in America.  Why?  I find this disturbing.  Why doesn't anybody else? [slm] ps: in grad school there are more muslims, but that's because most of the grad students come from abroad.  also, the reason why there are many muslim doctors and doctorates in america is because they came from abroad.  you have a much larger sample space (1 billion) people to choose from when talking about those people.  I am not talking about my dad's generation.  I am talking about my generation.  What proportion of the doctors and doctorates are young muslims who grew up in America?   ps2:  some people will object to this focusing on doctors and doctorates because i seem to be ignoring learning the islamic sciences.  but i haven't met too many people with a thorough and  rigorous islamic education who grew up in America either.
04/23/03 at 03:42:37
mr-bean

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
bhaloo
04/23/03 at 09:42:08
[slm] [quote] you are wrong....very wrong....the point of fancy universities is that if you are really bright then those fancy unis really help to develop your  gifts.... [/quote] I'm not wrong, I'm speaking from life's experience, experience one won't find in the classroom.  :)    The university I went to was not an Ivy League school, it was about 1/6th the cost of Ivy League schools.  In the major I took, they admitted the top 1% of students from high schools.  All the professors were from MIT, Stanford, Ivy League schools, Carnegie Mellon, etc.   And the curriculum at my university and at other universities across the globe was the same.  The books were the same as well, that was the amazing thing.  95% of the information one learns in college, you won't even use (this was the saying of a professor in my senior year), and he was right.  The only thing I learned in college was that if I studied hard (once I spent 60 hours in a week studying for a class), I could do better then anyone.   And at work I work with people from MIT, Stanford, etc.  They don't make any more money then me, they aren't any different then me. [quote] So where would you rather invest your hard earned money?  In a big house and a cool car or your kids education?  There are lots of parents who are barely educated, who didn't even finish primary school, let alone college, who are willing to spend their savings on their kids education, and deep down they don't do it because of  "status reasons".   [/quote] We aren't talking about barely educated people.  We are talking about weather to send someone to an Ivy Leagu school that costs $50,000 a year or to a plain university that costs maybe 2 or 3 thousand a year or less at a community college.  Just like everything in life, one has to look at all the factors, and costs are a big factor in the equation.  What does your investment yield in the long run?  Look at the big picture.  For certain majors (definitely not the sciences or engineering) it might make a difference.

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Sunnah
04/23/03 at 19:24:31
“Some sisters are just not comfortable with emailing you” - Anonymous That’s a valid statement by Anonymous.  I know I get very annoyed when some guy, out of nowhere starts to im me, and e-mailing. Then they start to convince you how sweet they are…guys! (Not all of course) "don't ever ever EVER in the process of ANYTHING call a woman "emotional".  - se7en I AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!! MEN Usually see women as emotional...ok maybe some...but don't ever point out to them that they are emotional....you will then see an outraged  :-). Ok here goes some of tips for my islamic brothers: JUST BE YOUSELF...AND SIMPLY GIVE LOVE...DON'T LOVE ONLY TO BE LOVED.  :) Good luck brothers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ma salaama.

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
mr-bean
04/24/03 at 09:25:03
[quote author=bhaloo link=board=bro;num=1050342099;start=45#53 date=04/23/03 at 09:42:08][slm] I'm not wrong, I'm speaking from life's experience, experience one won't find in the classroom.  :)   And at work I work with people from MIT, Stanford, etc.  They don't make any more money then me, they aren't any different then me. [/quote] you are implying that there is absolutely no rational reason why  people choose to go to  fancy schools.  So why *do* people choose to go  there? one thing to note is that the entering classes of these universities is fairly large, like 1000+ students.  there is a lot of froth in these entering classes, and i have met many people from fancy universities who were as dumb as a doornolb.  but i have also met  people from fancy universities who were so smart that i concluded that either (1) i didn't have a brain, (2) they were from a different planet, (3) i was cro-magnon   the point is if you are really interested in education, then these places will foster your talents the most.  if you are just interested in getting out as soon as possible, getting a job and living the good life after that...then its perhaps a waste of money.  so it depends on your intention....if learning is your passion and you want to say do a graduate degree like a Ph.D.  then somehow i think a fancy college might be your best bet..... maybe you should ask people who went to these places and then went on to do further education...like a ph.d.....what they think...

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
bhaloo
04/25/03 at 09:52:26
[slm] [quote author=mr-bean link=board=bro;num=1050342099;start=45#55 date=04/24/03 at 09:25:03] you are implying that there is absolutely no rational reason why  people choose to go to  fancy schools.  So why *do* people choose to go  there? [/quote] People go there because of the "name", its more of a status symbol. And for a foreigner coming to the United States, it makes sense for them to go there, over a state university, because foreigners don't get the discount at state universities that US residents enjoy.  I had a cousin that did her undergrad at Stanford, and then went to my university for medical school.  She said that the classes at Stanford were less competitive, and most students received high grades (many of these private universities suffer from grade inflation, they like giving out most of their students A's and B's).   The "name" can make a difference.  I have 2 cousins that both graduated from USC.  One went for a job interview, and the interviewer said, you went to USC, oh, so did I, your hired (there were no other questions asked.  USC is like an elite club, you go there for the connections in the business world).  And the other cousin I know found a job very easily because of USC.  But the quality of education was no different.  For certain majors like business (which is what field both of them were in) it can make a difference in terms of business contacts outside the university, but the quality of education was no different.  And as I have mentioned, for the science majors it makes no difference.   The economist Alan B. Krueger who teaches at Princeton University, believes it’s probably not worth the money to send one's child there there.  Not in terms of future earnings, anyway. Krueger ignited a minor furor when he and Stacy B. Dale, a researcher at the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, concluded in 1998 that elite colleges do not pay off in higher earnings. They only appear to do so, the researchers contended. Krueger and Dale claimed that, in most cases, the higher earnings piled up by graduates of elite schools were attributable to elite individuals, not their college education. In other words, if you’re smart enough to get into Princeton, you’re smart enough to make a lot of money wherever you go to school. [quote] maybe you should ask people who went to these places and then went on to do further education...like a ph.d.....what they think...[/quote] see above. :)  also last year at the company i worked at, my boss had a PHD and used to teach at UCLA.  he said that teaching pays no where near as much as we make in the profession we are in.   another guy i met at a dinner, who did an engineering degree and then went on to become an opthamalogist, felt disappointed.  he had spent 14 years of his life in college, and was upset that he was being offered jobs in the mid 80k region.  he complained to me that he was over 200,000 in debt (he'll have to pay interest on that money as well), and that he's going to be making far less money then if he had just gone to school for 4 years, finished his engineering degree, and worked for 10 years, according to him engineers average about 100,000 after 10 years.  had he taken the engineering route he would be plus 600,000 (assuming an average of 60k a year, most likely its more) instead of being down 200,000, and he could have invested the money in property and come out way ahead (but that's a topic for another time. ;) ).

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
BroHanif
04/26/03 at 03:54:46
Salaams, [quote]Really? I know more muslim with doctorates than non-muslims. Maybe that's the case in England. Over here in the US, Muslims tend to be *very* educated. I think i also read somewhere that Muslims in London are not as educated as Muslims in the US. [/quote] Yeah compare the size of the US and UK and then it makes true to what you say, but compare Europe and the US. You'll find the Europeans exceed in education compared to the US. Viva La Europe!. Salaams Hanif

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
IMuslim_4Ever
04/30/03 at 21:31:33
[slm] Why should education really matter in married life?????? Isn't relgion enough??????????? Peace

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
jaihoon
05/01/03 at 05:53:06
[quote author=IMuslim_4Ever link=board=bro;num=1050342099;start=45#58 date=04/30/03 at 21:31:33] [slm] Why should education really matter in married life?????? Isn't relgion enough??????????? [/quote] maybe 'coz education is a part of religion  ;)

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
IMuslim_4Ever
05/01/03 at 21:50:04
[slm] I meant like getting asome kind of degree or phd degree. education is part of religion, when its a religious education. the kind of education we have nowdays isn't really "education."  Educated ppl are wrose than no-educated ppl in some case... [] [] [] [].........Peace

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
mr-bean
05/02/03 at 05:55:55
[slm] sorry, but i kindof disagree.  rich people tend to be much worse muslims than not so   educated muslims (dunya wise).  since educated people tend to be richer -- in that sense educated people are worse muslims.  but its not education which necessarily corrupts -- tis money.... [slm]

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Madinat
05/06/03 at 19:24:17
[quote author=mr-bean link=board=bro;num=1050342099;start=15#24 date=04/20/03 at 10:08:46] to send a kid to college nowadays cost around  200K, and if you have 3 kids -- that's 600K down the drain just for university.....how are you going to pay for that?   you might tell your kids that they should go to a cheap college like an in state college or community college, but is that fair?  people say that there are lots of scholarships....but in reality there are very few for any big money, and you only get real financial aid if you go to harvard or yale...and even then...i remember my financial aid package when i was a freshman was a measly $500 happy hunting!   [/quote] WHOA!! are you sure you don't mean $5000? i went to harvard university for summer school and they gave me $1580 for just taking two classes!   my collelge costs about $40200/year (tufts university) and is more expensive than harvard, but financial aid is need based.  my parents pay about $5000/year for everything, and i come up with the money for food and transportation.  don't worry so much about money all the time, where there's a will, there's a way.... oh yeah, i only got $7000 in scholarship money, the rest the school came up with :-)

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
onemuslimgirl
05/07/03 at 19:58:18
asalaam alakum, I disagree....money has nothing whatsoever to do with how good a Muslim is. I have seen good Muslims who are poor and rich, and I have seen bad Muslims who are poor and rich. With all due respect, and as a piece of advice to my fellow Muslims, lets stop worrying about judging who is a good or bad Muslim, and let us worry about judging ourselves whether we are good or bad Muslims.  :)

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
IMuslim_4Ever
05/08/03 at 22:20:37
[slm] Please don't be offended sis or anybody else...its just an opinion based on what i saw around me. maybe i haven't met right ppl yet. although i have seen some rich ppl who are very kind and religious. not everybody are same. what i am saying is that some education corrupts ppl. it depends on what kind of education you get. we all need to have religious education...and others that only going to benefit our ppl.  :) I have no right to judge anybody. Allah (swt) is the Best Judge and Only Most Fair Judge.

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
gift
05/09/03 at 06:31:29
[slm] [quote author=mr-bean link=board=bro;num=1050342099;start=60#61 date=05/02/03 at 05:55:55] [slm] sorry, but i kindof disagree.  rich people tend to be much worse muslims than not so   educated muslims (dunya wise).  since educated people tend to be richer -- in that sense educated people are worse muslims.  but its not education which necessarily corrupts -- tis money.... [slm][/quote] Woah!!!!!! Where did this generalisation come from ??? I know several very rich people/families and they are some of the best muslims I know.  We shouldn't generalise about 'X type of person' being a better muslim and 'Y type of person' being a worse muslim.  Only Allah swt can judge who is a good/bad/better/worse muslim [wlm]

Re: Advice on how to go about marrying a sister
Barr
05/16/03 at 21:42:37
[slm] warahmatullah :-) Another tip: [color=red]Be sure what you want, what you really really want.[/color] - Be clear on what your criterias are for you to pass on to your "broker", so that he/she knows who they should be looking out for. Eg. If you do want to be married to an above-average looking sister, and would not be able to compromise, please state that. Please don't hide with lines such as its OK, if she's pleasant looking, she doesn't have to be Miss Universe, but as long as she has deen and akhlaq.   Don't be shy, if that is what you truly feel, just be open to your brokers. - If you have issues that needs to be dealt with, handle those first, if those issues will affect any marriage prospects, or its processes. Eg. If you know your family is allergic to sisters who are of a different ethnicity, yet you would like someone of a different ethnicity to be married to, please settle that first, before agreeing to proceed with ANY introductions. Again, please tell your broker instead of saying, I am just looking for someone whom I can grow in this deen. Bottomline, state your preferences. Tell what you can or cannot compromise with. Becoz, it'll save a LOT of headache and heartache.. not just from your future prospects, but, your brokers too. - Do your istikharah, and be sure of what you want to do before proceeding. Please remember that you are using up your broker's time as well as the sister's time. DON'T WASTE THEM! Be a man, and know what you want. If you don't know what you want, then introspect your intentions, and take the time to find out. Don't rush into marriage just becoz, you think its the next best thing to do due to hormones or any other reasons that are within the same time and geographical zone. Coz it leaves a bad taste in the mouth, when a man, doesn't know what he wants. It just shows maturity... or the lack of it. Wassalam.
05/16/03 at 22:16:59
Barr
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