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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| "Bad" books? |
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| Anonymous |
| 04/24/03 at 14:01:03 |
| What do you suggest you do with books that have a "bad" message? Some are fiction like Findley's "Not wanted on the voyage". Others promote political orientations and/or may condone life-styles that are quite anti-islamic, etc. I fear if I give them away, I will bear the burden if they negatively influence their prospective readers? Am I being hyper sensitive or is this a valid concern. Do you think they are responsible for reading critically or am I, as a Muslim, supposed to be limiting the circulation of this kind of mentality? I don't want to sell them and make $ this way at all, so that's not an option. |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| Danyala |
| 04/24/03 at 17:39:38 |
| [slm] If you feel strongly enough, why not just burn them? (although I don't know how environmentally friendly that is ;)).maybe puttin em in the recycling bin would be better that way you do some more good while you're at it.... this is kinda related, (not really but i'll tell you anyway)...During one Ramadhan I heard that one sister wanted to get rid of her indian music cassettes, so if i remember correctly she just taped over all of them with good stuff :D kinda liked that...also your subject heading made me think you were in the 'bad books with someone'...but i digress. Yours unhelpfully, [wlm] :-) :-* |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| Dude |
| 04/24/03 at 18:01:52 |
| I think I see your dilemma, but if I may make one comment on the solution: DON’T BURN THEM! As a society, we cannot get into the practice of burning books, no matter what the message. Either fictional, non-fictional, a documentary, or even hate propaganda, books need to be preserved. Books of all types have proven to be our most valuable historical resource over the years, and to burn them is to deny future generations the opportunity to look back on our generation, and to learn from it. Even if it is a fictional book that holds values against your own, that book may be useful to someone else, for some purpose, later on. Take “The Adventures of Huckleberry Fin” by Mark Twain. It is seen by some as an inappropriate book for minors. That’s a matter of opinion. It is also known as one of the best fictional books of its generation. Or, an even more extreme example: "Mein Kampf" by Adolf Hitler. Should all copies of that book be destroyed (obviously, because of his hatefull message and ideas), or should it be kept safe an important historical artifact? My point is, we should never resort to burning books- ever. If you want to get rid of some, donate them to a library…but don’t burn them. Books of all types and contents need to be preserved, at all costs. |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| Danyala |
| 04/24/03 at 18:11:18 |
| [slm] Hmm...i disagree. I see where you are coming from Dude, BUT i think books of Knowledge need to be preserved rather than all books. Anyone can pick up a pen n write c*** (pardon my french)...just because they've written it doesn't mean it worthy enough for generations to learn from....i'l give a controversial example: the Satanic verses....or a silly one...Dr Seuss's 'Sam I am eats green eggs n ham'...as for learning lessons...well cultures have a way of handing down those...humans will repeat mistakes that generations have made, its in our nature, after all that is what insaan is 'one who forgets' and the only real lessons you will ever learn can be found in the Qu'ran and the Seerah books. [wlm] :-* |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| BroHanif |
| 04/24/03 at 18:31:24 |
| Salaams, [quote]The Adventures of Huckleberry Fin” by Mark Twain[/quote] The one book where at times I felt like Huck Fin or Tom Sawyer in my young days... Salaams Hanif |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 04/24/03 at 18:48:56 |
| Posted by: Danyala Posted on: Today at 6:11pm Hmm...i disagree. I see where you are coming from Dude, BUT i think books of Knowledge need to be preserved rather than all books. Anyone can pick up a pen n write c*** (pardon my french)... Danyala, I am assuming that c**** is crepe? I really don't think it is all that bad a word. I bet you also dropped the french in f**** in F**** fries. |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 04/24/03 at 18:51:07 |
| Posted by: Madina Wrestler Posted on: Today at 6:31pm Salaams, Quote:The Adventures of Huckleberry Fin” by Mark Twain The one book where at times I felt like Huck Fin or Tom Sawyer in my young days... Salaams Hanif Hey Hanif, wasn't huck fin written after your young days? |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| Nistar |
| 04/24/03 at 20:46:00 |
| Hi Anon -- have you thought of giving them to a library? Perhaps you are being a bit sensitive -- I'm not sure what the ethics are concerning giving away books that some would feel have the potential to cause harm or corrupt others. That is a huge responsibility that you are placing upon yourself. Please don't burn them -- if you *have* to get rid of them, I highly suggest that you bury them. Peace, Nistar |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 04/24/03 at 21:14:41 |
| [slm] [quote]Hmm...i disagree. I see where you are coming from Dude, BUT i think books of Knowledge need to be preserved rather than all books. Anyone can pick up a pen n write c*** (pardon my french)...just because they've written it doesn't mean it worthy enough for generations to learn from....i'l give a controversial example: the Satanic verses....or a silly one...Dr Seuss's 'Sam I am eats green eggs n ham'...as for learning lessons...well cultures have a way of handing down those...humans will repeat mistakes that generations have made, its in our nature, after all that is what insaan is 'one who forgets' and the only real lessons you will ever learn can be found in the Qu'ran and the Seerah books. [/quote] Exactly. Why keep something that gives false messages? The books that should be kept are the ones that are giving the true message. Why keep something that will give false information to someone and lead one to believe what is not right or what never happened. And thats right. Anyone can pick up a pen and write false information and get it published. This is not helping the future, but ruining it. |
| 04/24/03 at 21:15:52 |
| a_Silver_Rose |
| Save the Earth! |
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| NinthMuharram |
| 04/24/03 at 21:29:02 |
| [slm] This is what usually do : tear apart the book and send it to the recycle centre. I now have a win-win situation. Or , I use it for my craft stuff and be creative with it. |
| 04/24/03 at 21:30:11 |
| NinthMuharram |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| bhaloo |
| 04/24/03 at 21:49:41 |
| [slm] I would say don't give the books away to someone if they have a bad message. There's no point in giving someone else those bad ideas and misleading them. Either throw it in the garbage or better yet as a few have suggested, recycle it. |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 04/24/03 at 22:25:03 |
| I have a couple of books by noam chomsky and robert fisk but the recycling center wouldn't take them. |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| Dude |
| 04/25/03 at 01:24:02 |
| There is a place in the future for all books. Like today, our books in the future will be categorized as either factual, fictional, hateful, documentary...take your pick. It really doesn't matter if the message is false (in your opinion, would you burn the Bible?)...there may be a place for it, even if it is as an example of the popular opinion of the times. "Green Eggs and Ham", for example...how many Muslims would protest to having this in their house? Some. That said, it's a great children's book for other, non-Muslims. Dr. Seuss is one of the greatest children's authors ever...just because one of his books talks about eating Haram meat doesn't mean it should be destroyed. No book should be destroyed, in my opinion. There is a place for every one. To destroy anything like this is wrong, wrong, wrong. A better place would be a library, or even make a library of your own, and properly categorize the material. There is no place in society for us to choose to destroy the published works of others, no matter how much we disagree. You don't endorse the rights of Christian extremists to burn the Quran, do you? Yes, an extreme example, but in their view, the Quran spreads a false message, so by all your reasoning, it should be OK for them to destroy it (pleaaaaaaaaaaase...don't get offended by that...just for arguments sake). You shouldn't tear any up, and you shouldn't bury any. Books are bar non the most precious learning tools and historical evidence we all have. Haven’t you ever been fascinated by reading the teachings of old scholars, or writers? Think of people like Davincci...or Shakespeare. Really...think about this hard. There is a place for every book, whatever the message or opinion of it may be. I’d even keep Noam Chomsky’s crap around my house if I had any. |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| sista |
| 04/25/03 at 10:11:29 |
| [slm] [quote]Books are bar non the most precious learning tools and historical evidence we all have.[/quote] Hmm...learning for what though? Our purpose is to get closer to Allah - all that doesn't help us do that is a preoccupation, while anything that takes us (or anyone else, Muslim or not Muslim) [i]away[/i] from Him is surely worthy of disposal... Love for your brother what you love for yourself right? And every non-Muslim is a potential Muslim... http://www.therighteouspath.com/manhaj/takinggoodleavingbad.pdf Anon, this is something I struggled with myself...I came to the conclusion that I want to increase my chances every way I can on that Day of Terror...on a matter such as this, if my heart knew that the books' message was bad, or part of it was bad (in which case I would tear out the relevant pages) then I figured, hey, it's [i]my[/i] book, it's bad, and I don't keep the contents of my dustbin, do I? W'Allahu 'Alem. [quote]This is what usually do : tear apart the book and send it to the recycle centre. I now have a win-win situation. Or , I use it for my craft stuff and be creative with it.[/quote] Never thought of using them creatively... :o Excellent ideas - jazakallahu kheiran ;D [wlm] |
| 04/25/03 at 10:21:41 |
| sista |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| Dude |
| 04/25/03 at 10:46:03 |
| Not an excellent idea. A thoughtless idea, perhaps. Let me give you a scenario: lets say 70% of the world is non-Muslim, and most countries were ruled by non-Muslim governments. Let’s say every one of these Governments decided to take the same stance: destroy any and all literature that they feel is “incorrect”, or sends the “wrong message”. Let’s assume that, to them, this meant destroying all the Islamic literature within their grasp. Is that beneficial to their future generation? How would their future generation learn about Muslims in their forefather’s time? I see your points, but try and see mine: every piece of literature is a piece of our history. It is our legal right to destroy literature, but morally, it is wrong. Really, it doesn’t matter if you agree with the message or not, it is historical, documented evidence. Where would we be if our ancestors decided to destroy all types of certain kinds of literature? Again, if you don’t want the books, give them to a library. Do not destroy. |
| 04/25/03 at 11:50:13 |
| Dude |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| lightningatnite |
| 04/25/03 at 11:47:17 |
| [slm] Regarding the burning of books, Islam as a civilization never undertook such measures. Truth is clear from falsehood. Propoganda and misinformation is only needed when you are lying to people, not when your message is the truth. It is correct to say that Islamic societies should not burn Bibles or other texts that may contain potentially incorrect information. We have never done that. And this is what our history has been checkered with...tolerance for things that may be wrong. Tolerance does not mean that you accept what others believe in. Rather, as Muslims we firmly believe that certain beliefs are clearly wrong and false. However, we do not prevent others from adhering to these incorrect beliefs. For example, a Muslim can never say that Trinity is truth. However, he or she may still engage in dialogue with a Trinitarian and respect his or her right to believe in Trinity. However, a Muslim cannot respect the concept of Trinity itself. Having said that, the questioner did not ask what a society should do with false books. He or she asked what one should do, as an individual, with such books. Clearly that is a personal decision. It is perfectly his or her right to destroy such books if his or her conscience dictates such an action. |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| Dude |
| 04/25/03 at 11:55:58 |
| Exactly. It is the individual’s right to choose what to do with the books. This is a freedom one has here: to choose. I’m just trying to strongly discourage anyone from ever destroying any book. I don’t think they should be destroyed, for historical purposes. Again, it doesn’t matter if the opinion written is incorrect or not, it is historical. All books should be treated as a potential artifact…with respect. In the days of the internet generation, I see young people placing less and less value on books. We need to hold all books as precious artifacts. To destroy any book, in my opinion, is simply wrong…even it the destroyer’s intent is just. |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| ascetic |
| 04/25/03 at 16:03:45 |
| [quote author=mike aka ltcorpest2 link=board=madrasa;num=1051203663;start=0#11 date=04/24/03 at 22:25:03] I have a couple of books by noam chomsky and robert fisk but the recycling center wouldn't take them.[/quote] Can you mail them to me? I'll pay for shipping. |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| sista |
| 04/25/03 at 19:58:39 |
| [slm] [quote]Regarding the burning of books, Islam as a civilization never undertook such measures.[/quote] Actually that's not true. This is precisely what happened when the Quran was compiled - Rasullullah [saw] taught the Quran in 7 different dialects, and during the Caliphate of Uthman (RA), when the copying and dissemination was in earnest (Islam had by this time spread to Africa, Asia, even some of Europe) the new converts naturally made mistakes in their reading of the Quran as Arabic was not their first language. Confusion began to spill into arguments as there arose the possibility of incorrect pronunciation, change, and corruption. Hudhaifah ibn Yaman, known as the confidante of Rasullullah [saw] saw what was happening, and immediately went to see Uthman. He consulted with the most learned of the companions and asked for the copy of the Quran in the custody of Hafsa (RA). This particular copy was the first to be compiled as a complete book after the death of Rasullullah [saw] at Umar (RA)’s suggestion, it was the most verified by the companions who had memorised the Quran, written by Zayd ibn Thabit, and completed within a year of the Prophet [saw]’s death. Uthman asked Zayd to head a team of scholars and make seven copies of the Quran in the original [i]Qureshi[/i] dialect. These were then sent to the leaders of the capitals in the Islamic state, along with a qari to teach people according to this version, and settle disputes in pronunciation. Uthman then ordered for [i]all[/i] unofficial copies of the Quran (there were [i]hundreds[/i] at this time, maybe thousands) to be burned. The reason was simple enough - there was no way to verify each and every existing copy easily and safely. (As it happens, the original Uthmani copies are still available today in Cairo, Istanbul, and other places) Now, Orientalists, among others, seize upon this and say that Uthman burned the true copies and made his own, Uthman denied freedom of scholarship, Uthman wanted to corrupt historical records..etc etc Ok, so that's the Quran itself. Other examples are given in the article I mentioned in my last post... [quote]Truth is clear from falsehood. Propoganda and misinformation is only needed when you are lying to people, not when your message is the truth.[/quote] Trouble is, the lies [i]do[/i] lead many astray, and not everyone finds a way back :( Concerning the importance of disseminating truth and not falsehood, beneficial and not evil things, consider the following excerpt: Narrated Samura bin Jundub: Allah's Messenger [saw] very often used to ask his companions, "Did anyone of you see a dream?" So dreams would be narrated to him by those whom Allah wished to tell. One morning the Prophet said, "Last night two persons came to me (in a dream) and woke me up and said to me, 'Proceed!' I set out with them...and came to a man lying flat on his back and another man standing over his head with an iron hook, and behold, he would put the hook in one side of the man's mouth and tear off that side of his face to the back (of the neck) and similarly tear his nose from front to back and his eye from front to back. Then he turned to the other side of the man's face and did just as he had done with the other side. He hardly completed this side when the other side returned to its normal state. Then he returned to it to repeat what he had done before. I said to my two companions, 'Subhan Allah! Who are these two persons?' They said to me, 'Proceed!' So we proceeded...[and saw several other strange sights. Eventually, his [saw] two companions led him right up to Paradise, and told him [saw] that he [saw] would enter it one day] I said to them, 'I have seen many wonders tonight. What does all that mean which I have seen?' They replied, 'We will inform you... As for the man you came upon whose sides of mouth, nostrils and eyes were torn off from front to back, he is the symbol of the man who goes out of his house in the morning [i]and tells so many lies that it spreads all over the world.[/i] [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 171] Who fits into this category exactly? Allahu 'Alem - I don't know all the ins and outs of it...all I'm implying by quoting this hadith is that I don't want to risk having any part (and thereby potential punishment) for spreading bad things... [quote]Let me give you a scenario: lets say 70% of the world is non-Muslim, and most countries were ruled by non-Muslim governments. Let’s say every one of these Governments decided to take the same stance: destroy any and all literature that they feel is “incorrect”, or sends the “wrong message”. Let’s assume that, to them, this meant destroying all the Islamic literature within their grasp. Is that beneficial to their future generation? How would their future generation learn about Muslims in their forefather’s time?[/quote] You are absolutely correct in that governments would be wrong to do this. However, I say this not because the act of burning books is wrong, but rather because they are denying the truth. If Uthman chose to burn the copies of the Quran it was because he was denying falsehood. Keeping books for purely historical purposes indicates a belief that we cannot be sure what the truth is, and should keep all of it so that we might find it amid all the falsehood. It’s like saying, “If we burn their books, they’ll burn ours. We think we’re right, they think they’re right. Stalemate. So we shouldn’t judge.” Not so, I believe – because if they say they’re right, well, they’re wrong, because Islam is right (unless of course you meant keeping books purely for the sake of acquisition...? ???). Don't get me wrong, I’m not saying go burn all the bad books you see in the libraries etc – the original question concerned books in your own possession that are [i]clearly[/i] wrong. Where there’s doubt, there’s a bit more leeway I think… You're right, Dude, children do place little value on books now and it's sad...but surely it's better to encourage them to read beneficial literature rather than hoard potentially harmful literature as artefacts? I would never, for instance, let Roddy Doyle sit around my house for my little sister to read...! Anyway, in general, one cannot say that destroying bad books as such is wrong, because it was a practice of the companions. (sigh) Ahh, man I'm all stressed out now! This is a pretty contentious topic...I believe every word I've said, yet I cringe to think that I've offended people :( (If I have, then sorry...) [wlm] |
| 04/25/03 at 20:13:31 |
| sista |
| Re: "Bad" books? |
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| bhaloo |
| 04/25/03 at 21:15:39 |
| [slm] This question has been answered, and I'm going to close this thread. Also, I don't appreciate some people getting abusive with name calling and insults and it seems like this is the direction things are headed. Merely repeating your point over and over again and using insults each time is not going to get the point across, in fact its going to have the opposite effect. Think before your post. |
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