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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Anonymous |
| 04/24/03 at 14:05:03 |
| What would you think and feel if you saw a married couple who are practising Muslims holding hands as they walked, hugging one another and then giving a light peck on the lips in public? How would you know they're practising? Well the wife was wearing hijab and so you could assume that. I thought that was so sweet. It showed how much they loved one another. But it was an unsual sight for me to see a Muslim couple doing it and I was wondering why I didn't see this very often in the Muslim community. (I wouldn't be asking this if they were not Muslim.) |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 04/25/03 at 01:20:36 |
| [slm] [quote]But it was an unsual sight for me to see a Muslim couple doing it and I was wondering why I didn't see this very often in the Muslim community. (I wouldn't be asking this if they were not Muslim.) [/quote] I think its because of this: [i]Every Religion has a distinctive quality, and the distinctive quality of Islam is modesty [al-Bayhaqi, Ibn Majah and in Malik's Muwatta] [/i] Somtimz when you display affection in public, people feel uncomfortable. I know if I see anyone, I somtimz feel embarrassed. On the other hand I think when I see someone holding hands, you feel happy for the person (and i think thats so sweet and cute, mash'Allah) I guess its up to the couple to decide how far to go. If I see a couple holding hands or hugging that wouldnt bother me, but when it is more than that, then I would feel slightly uncomfortable. |
| 04/26/03 at 16:18:24 |
| a_Silver_Rose |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Mulla |
| 04/25/03 at 01:23:14 |
| Hmmmm... Well...... Showing affection in public is not appreciated in islamic value system among even married couples..... In muslims we adhere to a concept of "modesty" even in halall realtionships...... Even though its a hallal relationship and its perfectly legal but the "modesty" is such a value which really differentiates us from those who are closer to animalistic values in display of affection.......... The issue of "expression" in islamic mind is somewhat "concealed" keeping in mind that only about a 100 years ago the western society was modest as well , this can be confirmed by the study of "swimsuit" of the western society........ Hence according to one hadess of the true prophet Muhammad s.w my ummah will "follow" the non muslims to the minutest detail, so much so that if they se a lizard creep into a hole, they shall do the same...(may allah forgive me for giving a near meaning of the hadees instead of the original words).... Hence two issues here, showing of affection , and show of affection like the non muslims.... Plus it is no guarantee that a female who is covered has to abide by all the laws, there are many daughters of us who are born in very strict religious houses and even cover when they leave house but they change when they get to school both in attitude and dress......so we have exceptions as well...no big deal.... I am just answering back in a conversational manner, I would really appreciate if other brothers and sister more knowledge able then me shall also write on this issue.......... [] Mulla! |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Barr |
| 04/25/03 at 02:27:08 |
| Assalamu'alaikum, Here's a discussion at the old Madina board. U may find it a bit confusing reading the thread @ first, as the brother who asked the question, removed his post. But I think it'll make more sense, later, inshaAllah. http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=madrasa&action=display&num=3759 I'm sure there's another discussion like this... but i can't find it... and I can only vaguely remember it. Wassalam :-) |
| 04/25/03 at 02:56:20 |
| Barr |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| NinthMuharram |
| 04/25/03 at 02:35:23 |
| When I first saw this thread ..I thought PDA stands for "Personal Digital Assistant" !!! :-/ And after reading it, I still cannot relate PDA to the question . Then , it hit me PDA = public display affection! ;D |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Mun33r |
| 04/25/03 at 03:54:37 |
| Assalamualaikum, [quote]When I first saw this thread ..I thought PDA stands for "Personal Digital Assistant" !!! And after reading it, I still cannot relate PDA to the question . Then , it hit me PDA = public display affection! [/quote] Well, in some cases, there are probably those who show a bit too much affection in public...for their PDAs. I think they are referred to as Computer geeks <no offense intended> ;) ;-) Very helpful discussion, thank you all... :-) |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Dawn |
| 04/26/03 at 06:32:11 |
| [slm] If I may, I'd like to throw one additional variable into the equation, so to speak. First, I would like to say that, personally, I do not find holding hands or walking "arm over shoulder", or even an occasional quick light kiss to be immodest. (The other, erm, extremes that one sees teenagers engaging in here on park and city benches is another issue entirely.) Secondly, I think that such romantic, small PDAs can go a long way towards dispelling quite a few myths about Muslims, especially Muslim women. Why do I say this? Well, first for every one person that has ever come up to a "hijabi" and asked her about her head covering, there are probably 100 others who don't ask, but still wonder. (I think it is probably like the rule of thumb for letter writers: for every one who writes to politicians, businesses, etc., the people/firms addressed figure for about 100 others who think the same but haven't written.) And many of these people probably also hold onto the old stereotypes of "oppressed" women who are "forced" to marry, who are subjected by their husbands, etc. In other words, it is the opposite, in their minds, of a loving, caring marital relationship. These people will not ask, however, just as most people don't write to complain/compliment/question, etc. Thus, seeing a clearly Muslim couple walking hand in hand, or arm-to-shoulder/arm-to-waist, or even giving each other a quick kiss, will signal something [i]very[/i] different to the "unenlightened" observer, which they might otherwise never encounter. It will indicate that the woman is in the marriage because she actually WANTS to be there. And this will be a real eye-opener for a lot of people, I am pretty sure. (Oh yeah, anon, I am assuming you observed this in a "western" environment. The point raised here becomes pretty much a non-issue in a muslim majority environment, I would think.) Just my thoughts on the issue. |
| 05/12/03 at 08:21:41 |
| Dawn |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 04/27/03 at 23:07:04 |
| [quote]Posted by: Dawn Posted on: Apr 26th, 2003, 6:32am If I may, I'd like to throw one additional variable into the equation, so to speak. First, I would like to say that, personally, I do not find holding hands or walking "arm over shoulder", or even an occasional quick light kiss to be immodest. (The other, erm, extremes that one sees teenagers engaging in here on park and city benches is another issue entirely.) Secondly, I think that such romantic, small PDAs can go a long way towards dispelling quite a few myths about Muslims, especially Muslim women. Why do I say this? Well, first for every one person that has ever come up to a "hijabi" and asked her about her head covering, there are probably 100 others who don't ask, but still wonder. (I think it is probably like the rule of thumb for letter writers: for every one who writes to politicians, businesses, etc., the people/firms addressed figure for about 100 others who think the same but haven't written.) And many of these people probably also hold onto the old stereotypes of "oppressed" women who are "forced" to marry, who are subjected by their husbands, etc. In other words, it is the opposite, in their minds, of a loving, caring marital relationship. These people will not ask, however, just as most people don't write to complain/complement/question, etc. Thus, seeing a clearly Muslim couple walking hand in hand, or arm-to-shoulder/arm-to-waist, or even giving each other a quick kiss, will signal something very different to the "unenlightened" observer, which they might otherwise never encounter. It will indicate that the woman is in the marriage because she actually WANTS to be there. And this will be a real eye-opener for a lot of people, I am pretty sure. (Oh yeah, anon, I am assuming you observed this in a "western" environment. The point raised here becomes pretty much a non-issue in a muslim majority environment, I would think.) Just my thoughts on the issue. [/quote] [wlm] Some good thoughts, mash'Allah. I think what you say makes good sense, and I believe when you show affection towards your spouse (not necessarily publicly) (and do little things like hugging , patting) this leads your kids to carry on and show affection to their spouse also. Although I dont think you should do something you feel uncomfortable with just to open peoples eye(not that you said that) Also the fact that muslims are modest when showing too much affection in public is also good dawah as it shows good character and modesty, Alhumdulilah. Alot of times when I see a muslims family (w/ lady wearing hijab) I see the father holding the children on his back or holding their hands. I also think that is a major eye opener. (so you dont necessarily have to hold hands w/ your wife just to open peoples eyes, although it can help :)) Another thing is that I dont think many Muslims dont do this just because other people feel uncomfortable or 'modesty' but also because they themselves are shy (which is a very plus trait islamically). To some this can just be done (even the little things) while they are only in private. For example when my best friend and I went to the fair, we caught her parents holding hands. I was thinking thats so sweet. She kept saying ' oh my gosh, oh my gosh' lol :-/ I was like wahts the big deal, thats cute. Well as soon as their parents saw their daughter they dropped their hands, and i think felt very unconmfortable and shy. Well my cuzin in pakistan is always putting his arm around his wifes shoulder and patting her shoulder. (and noone sees anything wrong w/ that) I have witnessed many muslim couples holding hands, ect. They dont go overboard which makes it nice and sweet and Alhumdulilah other people feel happy 4 them, insh'Allah. personally I think its very nice when husband and wife show that little affection. Its also kind of in a way saying 'this is my hubs , or this is my wife' It also makes the other person feel you love them and that you are protected. by the way Barr , jazak Allahu karyon for posting the link..was interesting. |
| 04/28/03 at 15:26:39 |
| a_Silver_Rose |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Ameeraana |
| 04/27/03 at 23:35:49 |
| I don't see anything wrong with PDAs so long as they are modest ones like holding hands, hugging and light kissing. It is the cutist thing to see men sincerely showing their love, not lust, to their wives out in public. Its so much better than what I sadly see all the time....- Muslim men staring at other women while their wives are right next to them!!! But, its not Muslim men who are the only ones that do this all too often... ahem... sorry Aztec_pilgrim to have to say this, but Mexican men seem to do this all too often... even while holding their ladies' hands!!! OK, not all of them... but its an awful lot that do!! That sure ain't no PDA!!! Ameera |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| se7en |
| 05/11/03 at 13:34:15 |
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah, I found this hadeeth.. thought it was interesting :) [color=black] Once a woman came to the Prophet with a complaint against her husband. He told her: "There is no woman who removes something to replace it in its proper place, with a view to tidying her husband's house, but that Allah sets it down as a virtue for her. Nor is there a man who walks with his wife hand-in-hand, but that Allah sets it down as a virtue for him; and if he puts his arm round her shoulder in love, his virtue is increased tenfold." [/color] from http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/womenquransunnah.html wasalaamu alaykum :-) |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 05/11/03 at 20:22:09 |
| [slm] Anyone know the grade of that last hadith, or where it can be found. I tried to search for it a little bit, but I can't find its source. Anyone? |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Yasmeena |
| 05/11/03 at 21:40:58 |
| [slm] I agree with Dawn. My husband and I have been married for almost 14 years. We still walk hand in hand sometimes when in public. It shows non-Muslims that we love each other and sometimes we get smiles from people. [wlm] :-) |
| show me the love.. |
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| princess |
| 05/11/03 at 22:06:52 |
| as'salaamualaikum ;D lighten up..geez ::) it's awesome to see muslims holdin hands and hugging. i find nothing imodest about that. abu humza..a hadith is a hadith is a hadith. :) |
| dont show me the love |
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| Nomi |
| 05/12/03 at 08:03:09 |
| [slm] all, first of all if you love each other and do PDA! as well then do you do it to show off!! u dont and i know it quite well, so, dont show me the love :) i mean why would i "watch" the PDA couple !! am not i asked to lower my gaze? ... so do it if u want but be sure that i'm not watching you :) :) That hadith talked about holding hands and hands on shoulders, right? and if its not a "daeef hadith" and is referring to the couples when they are outside then being a PDA (within islamic boundaries) would be thawaab, but still the hadith doesn't allow the couples to have a quick kiss!! now the Qur'an says that that the best example is in the sunnah of our Prophet [saw] so i think kissing [tender/quick] one's couple in public would be islamically incorrect, no?.. well i think it would definitly be wrong. let me bring up another scenario here... You are married, you look muslim (appearence/dressing etc), you dont have kids yet and you are a PDA! (within islamic boundaries, no kissing).. hm... how do people know that you are really married or not? what impression are you passing out to the muslims who are watching you holding hands/hands on shoulder when they dont know that you are married? (well if such a couple is wearing a sign in their necks/backs that says V R MARRIED) then its a different story :) to epitomize things: 1- Please dont kiss coz you dont need to go beyond the limits that islaam has drawn out 2- Be sure that i'm not watching u do it dont show me love :) Asim Zafar [i]PS: Sis sarah: dont take anything to heart as i was just sharing my thoughts and not demeaning anyone coz that would be a sin itself... peace [/i] |
| 05/12/03 at 08:08:19 |
| Nomi |
| Love Rox! |
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| Maliha |
| 05/12/03 at 08:14:16 |
| [slm] I don't know about a kiss...that seems just out there :o but come on holding hands?! Sheesh, i dont' see anything wrong with that. If Muslims should see you, (and your actions shouldn't be determined by others), then *they* should have husnu dhann (good opinion) and know that you two are married. I mean, its not everyday you see a hijabi :-) and a kufi ;-), chilling, holding hands, unmarried in public ::) My hubby is very non PDA, but even he holds hands with me when we are walking in the park, smelling the wild roses (and him later suffering from allergies), and basking in the twilight glow of the river....*sigh* Sis, Maliha :-) [wlm] |
| 05/12/03 at 08:14:53 |
| Maliha |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Nomi |
| 05/12/03 at 12:14:30 |
| [quote] but come on holding hands?! Sheesh, i dont' see anything wrong with that [/quote] erm... i was trying to say the same thing, if i didn't make myself clear then let me agree with you sister :) [quote] then *they* should have husnu dhann (good opinion) [/quote] yea thats the part i missed, true and i quite agree with you but having said that, there is a difference between Fatwa and Taqwa !! i mean it would be quite okay if couples "hold hands" but there may be people who may not do it may be because they are more mutaqee (just a thought) ... but thats not me as i've got many things to learn A brother in islam :) |
| 05/12/03 at 12:19:28 |
| Nomi |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Maliha |
| 05/12/03 at 12:21:35 |
| [slm] [quote]okay if couples "hold hands" but there may be people who may not do it may be because they are more mutaqee (just a thought) ... but thats not me as i've got many things to learn [/quote] Help me understand this...people who hold hands are less Mutaqee then people who don't??? Interesting conclusion ::) Sis, Maliha :-) [wlm] |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Nomi |
| 05/12/03 at 13:16:40 |
| assalamo alaikum, i'm resting my case for Keeping it Simple :) [i]PS: i used the word mutaqee for being more modest? or may be more conservative !!, may be it was a wrong choice.... make it more-conservative the better[/i].. replaced :) |
| NS |
| 05/12/03 at 13:23:04 |
| Nomi |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Nafisa |
| 05/12/03 at 14:34:22 |
| [slm] I hate to sound like a Puritan but I find all that PDA a bit too much, non-sexual or otherwise. I remember one incident when i was at the train station leaving university when i walked past a muslima who was sitting on her partner's knee!!! :o She was wearing a scarf, abaya, the full shebang but it totally contrasted with this image of her happily sitting on her (i would assume) husband's knee. except i didnt assume it was her husband because they both looked so young and the train station is used by university students mainly. It made a bad impression on me, i was really shocked. I really wanted to tell them off but resisted. that kind of exhibitionism is just uncalled for in my opinion. Personally, i dont need to know how in love are couple are and to be honest it just looks strange to me. In fact, i think that couple have scarred me for life. ;) No wonder i've turned into some kind of tut tutting puritan ;) |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| jannah |
| 05/12/03 at 15:30:28 |
| [slm] Wow you guys have some err interesting views... I think it's cute when you see married couples holding hands or him having his arm around her etc. I mean obviously there's a limit.. I think like maliha, kissing in public is a little much..and anything beyond that is just tacky and gross.. but I don't think there's anything wrong with being natural. is it possible to be completely different in public and then in private? i would say if those little things don't come out in public he sure doesn't do it at home.. it just shows natural affection... and doesn't have to have a sexual connotation.. mulla can u back up ur statement: " Showing affection in public is not appreciated in islamic value system among even married couples..... " can u also tell us how "animalistic values in display of affection" could be allowed at home but not in public? 7 that hadith was pretty cool. btw i think we should avoid speculating on whether the couple is married or not.. just assume they're married and leave it at that.. |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 05/13/03 at 00:30:23 |
| [slm] How we view things are often influenced by our environment, the society in which we were raised, and things that were ingrained into our psyche when we were very young. Every child is born in a state of fitrah, but those around the child change his state to an unnatural one. Whenever we, as Muslims, look at any act, we cannot judge how virtuous or non-virtuous it is independent from the example of the Prophet (s.a.w.) Because his example is influenced by the Divine, whereas our judgment is influenced by our personal biases which are limited in their wisdom and depth of perception. If we remove the Divine from the equation, no standard remains. Things become blurry, and everyone is left to his/her own opinion. What may seem modest to one person may not necessarily be considered modest to another. Many good Christians wear loose, long skirts, with long sleeves, and refrain from dating and going to bars. But their ankles, necks, chests and hair are often left exposed. That may be modest to some people, but it would not be modest *enough* for a nun. And what may be modest for a nun is not modest enough for a believer. If showing affection to one's spouse was indicative of love between two people, then nobody had more love for their wife than the Prophet (s.a.w.) had for Aisha. Yet, there is not a single report where he held his arm over her shoulder, hugged her, or kissed her in public. He kissed her at home in love, when Aisha recited a verse of poetry to him. He played with her on the street, racing her to the house. He walked with her on the streets of Madina, and even held her hand at one occasion if I'm not mistaken. But there is no narration which shows him doing more than that with his wife in pubilc, nor is there an incident where he recommended his companions to do so. Moreover, there is no report whatsoever that shows a companion, or the latter generations behaving this way with their spouse in public. I would really like to know whether the hadith quoted above is authentic. Obviously, I'm more interested in the "arm over the shoulder" part than the "holding hands" part. If it's authentic, and assuming it's referring to a case where the couple is in public, then I would be the first one to practice it with my wife (one day, insha Allah :)) If not, then ... a false hadith is a false hadith is a false hadith! I like to keep it real ::) P.S. al-'Ayn (the evil eye) is a very *real* concept. P.P.S. Hayaa was once a thing admired :( |
| 05/13/03 at 02:19:07 |
| Abu_Hamza |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Nomi |
| 05/13/03 at 07:05:21 |
| [quote] i would say if those little things don't come out in public he sure doesn't do it at home.. it just shows natural affection [/quote] erm.. i dont think so because i loooooooove my family and they know it quite well as i'm the one who makes them laugh often at home with friendly gesture etc but when we are out i'm a completely different person as i am quite reserved when outside with my family (females)... am i a whack !!!?? :) :) ... but we are talking about couples here, so i'll cross that bridge when i'll come to it :) [quote] I would really like to know whether the hadith quoted above is authentic. Obviously, I'm more interested in the "arm over the shoulder" part than the "holding hands" part. If it's authentic, and assuming it's referring to a case where the couple is in public, then I would be the first one to practice it with my wife (one day, insha Allah ) If not, then ... [/quote] bro Abu_Hamza: me TOO :) and my vote is with YOU because i think what you are saying is TRUE :) Asim Zafar |
| 05/13/03 at 07:08:12 |
| Nomi |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 05/13/03 at 16:06:38 |
| [slm] Brother Abu Hamza your post was nice and you make some good points, mash'Allah. I agree a false hadith is false and we should def varify it. But Brother even it is false there is also nowhere where [saw] prohibited such an action. And the putting arm over the shoulder seems even more decent to me than holding hands. you are not even touching bare skin and if i see someone hold hands or i did w/ my hubs i would def be a teeny bit more shy then just seeing or having an arm around the shoulder. I mean holding hands you are connecting and that is something special. Arm around the shoulder sends one the message that this man is 'protecting his wife' and kind of says back off, shes mine :) or just a very modest guesture of love. Even a quick hug wouldnt make me as shy as holding hands. So my point being that if holding hands is ok then arm around the shoulder (in my opinion) should def be ok. I mean I see my cousinsand uncles sometimes have arm around the shoulder of their wifebut never seen themn holding hands. ANd i think would be to shy 2 c that and they would be 2 shy 2 do that publicly also. |
| 05/13/03 at 20:07:29 |
| a_Silver_Rose |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| muahmed |
| 05/13/03 at 19:30:42 |
| [quote author=Abu_Hamza link=board=madrasa;num=1051203904;start=15#20 date=05/13/03 at 00:30:23] a false hadith is a false hadith is a false hadith! I like to keep it real ::) [/quote] :) What I have learned from scholars of hadith is that you can prove that a hadith is authentic but not the other way! (Unless the hadith contradicts the Quran). A lot of ahadith, are reported by a chain of narators in which we dont know abt the character of some of them, or the chain is broken or so on. All such ahadith, which cannot be proven to be authentic, are not false. We can not say which ones are false and which ones are not! Maybe most of them are sayings of the Prophet (saws). We just dont know that! Calling a hadith a false hadith means you can prove it was made up by someone. Can you do that? Hence I may say that a hadith can't be proven to be authentic or saheeh but I abstain from calling it false. and Allah knows best. |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 05/13/03 at 19:31:03 |
| [slm] Sr. silverose, I must say I disagree with you. An arm around the shoulder definitely shows more affection than holding hands. A hug shows more affection than hand shake. The arm around the shoulder is closer to a hug than holding one's hand. How many Muslim brothers on here have been trapped in a situation where they had to shake hands with a woman? How many have been trapped in a situation where they had to hug them?! What felt more awkward? The "hadith" cited above gives more virtue to putting the arm around the shoulder than holding hands. Why is that? In general, the more body contact there is, the more intimacy it shows. (There are exceptions to this, but I don't want to go into those right now). There is a lot more contact between two people when one of them puts his/her arm around the shoulder of another than there is in holding hands. Skin contact is not the issue here. The issue is the warmth that two souls feel when their bodies press against each other (not necessarily touch). And the surface area of the body that is in contact with the other person when an arm is put over the shoulder is ... alot! Try it with a mahrem! Sorry for being explicit. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah. P.S. When in doubt, observe hayaa. |
| 05/13/03 at 19:48:18 |
| Abu_Hamza |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 05/13/03 at 19:47:01 |
| [slm] Br. Muhammad, jazak Allahu khairan for pointing that out. I should have said "inauthentic" rather than "false." However, there are a lot of false ahadith out there. That is, there are many stories that exist that are simply fabrications. They are known as mawdoo' ahadith, as I'm sure you know. So, for your question, [quote]Calling a hadith a false hadith means you can prove it was made up by someone. Can you do that?[/quote] The answer would be yes, you can. "Made up by someone" = "Fabricated." But your point is well taken that just because a hadith is not authentic doesn't mean that it's a fabrication. Jazak Allahu khairan. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 05/13/03 at 20:11:46 |
| [slm] Well I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. shaking hands is very different from holding hands. And as I said I do personally feel more shy to see someone hold hands then to see a man put an arm around his wife's shoulder. My dad puts an arm around me all the time. Its no big deal but holding hands. thats just awkward. Also notice i said 'quick hug' . A quick second hug is more decent to me than holding hands. When someone sees that it stays for a second in their mind then leaves. But when someone sees someone holding hands will it wasnt in a quick sec, they are still seeing that! you also have to realize that we are talking about public displayof affection. Now you know that to some people this is more modest. And As muslims we should be modest and this is not prohibited anywhere. |
| 05/20/03 at 15:51:33 |
| a_Silver_Rose |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Tesseract |
| 05/13/03 at 21:27:14 |
| Assalamu 'alaikum, [quote]If showing affection to one's spouse was indicative of love between two people, then nobody had more love for their wife than the Prophet (s.a.w.) had for Aisha. [/quote] I maybe wrong here, but didn't Prophet (saw) had more love for his wife Khadija (RA) than any other wife? Wassalam. |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| moonie |
| 05/13/03 at 23:29:05 |
| [slm] i think that its ok. because ur expressing ur love for one another. |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Kathy |
| 05/19/03 at 08:25:47 |
| [quote]Claim your complimentary PDA![/quote] I found this e-mail in my mail... Imagine how disappointed I was to see it was for a gadget and not from my hubby! ;) |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Nomi |
| 05/19/03 at 10:54:04 |
| [slm] all Sounds like Abu Hamza, myself and rest of the anti PDA group won Asim Zafar PS: sis kathy: i dint do it though, as my elder brother usually says, i wont do it till the 16th of the dooms day :) :) (erm.. sounds more funny in urdu :) ) |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 05/19/03 at 19:44:27 |
| [slm] [quote author=Bulwark of Islam link=board=madrasa;num=1051203904;start=15#27 date=05/13/03 at 21:27:14]I maybe wrong here, but didn't Prophet (saw) had more love for his wife Khadija (RA) than any other wife?[/quote] Yes he did. But he spent very little time with Sayyidatinaa Khadijah (r.a.) after nabuwwah. Therefore, there are very few examples that are available to us from his marital relations with Khadijah *as a nabee* (and thus a role model for all of us). Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| se7en |
| 05/20/03 at 02:13:20 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah, I'm sure everyone here agrees that before we formulate an opinion on something, we should refer back to our guide Rasulullah [saw], as his life and actions were divinely inspired, and in him we have the best example to follow. Along these lines, we also know that it is a basic principle in Shari'ah that *everything* is permissible unless it is prohibited in text.. [this in the case with mua'malaat.. it is actually the opposite when it comes to ibadaat] So.. I have yet to see an explicit text brought forth by you anti-PDA ppl :P And as the hukm says: "al bayyinatu 'alaa mann 'idaaee" -- the burden of proof is upon the one who makes a claim. (we just learned this in Arabic class 8), sorry if it is misspelled) Also, I think we need to work with operational definitions here. Yes, the general ahadeeth and texts praise modesty and haya'.. but what does 'being modest' mean? What actions does this include/prohibit? And what is a PDA? Of course, it includes the overt things that were mentioned here like kissing and hugging and what not.. but there are other 'displays' of affection too.. shared glances.. helping your wife put on her coat.. fixing your husband's collar.. feeding each other across a table at a restaurant.. calling him/her "muffin"... are these also included? Who/what decides what crosses the border into an 'official' PDA and what is simply a husband and wife being nice and sweet with each other in a public setting? I think we see that in the absence of any explicit text, people differ on this, based on their environment, their background, 'urf and local custom, and their personal perspectives (as is quite evident in this thread). I am not drawing any conclusions here.. all I'm saying is that what *you* as an individual think is 'modest' or 'appropriate' may differ a great deal from someone else.. and *neither* of you are categorically right, unless your opinion is based on the divine text and sources. PS - Note: saying all this does not make me a PDA advocate :P PPS - a sis and I got into an interesting discussion the other day about this.. it seems that across the board guys are more resistant to the idea of displaying affection than girls (this is the case with Muslims and non).. and we concluded that it is because -- guys have a harder time being expressive in general; and because such actions usually have a more sexual connotation for men than for women. Just some speculation :P w'Allahu a'lam. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah :-) |
| 05/20/03 at 02:45:32 |
| se7en |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| siddiqui |
| 05/20/03 at 08:28:17 |
| [slm] [quote]calling him/her "muffin"... [/quote] well I dont know about that ;) but today morning I missed my bus and had to take a cab for a freshly baked blue berry muffin :( but belive me it was worth it ;) [wlm] |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| theOriginal |
| 05/20/03 at 08:34:30 |
| [slm] Was it really about winning, bro Nomi? I have also witnessed the other extreme.... Hubby walking up front, wife (barricaded under 17 layers of clothing) trailing with 5 kids behind him. I'd take the holding hands over that, any day. Somehow I see it as being more Haya-ful, because it shows respect for your wife. But let's agree to disagree, inshaAllah. Wasalaam. |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| theOriginal |
| 05/20/03 at 08:36:04 |
| [slm] Oh and didn't the Prophet (saw) have the most love for Aisha, ra? Something about a knot..getting stronger by the day...ignore me if that made no sense. Wasalaam. |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Nomi |
| 05/20/03 at 09:11:20 |
| [slm] all [quote] Was it really about winning, bro Nomi? [/quote] that was supposed to be a joke, n e ways, my apologies [quote] helping your wife put on her coat.. fixing your husband's collar [/quote] well well, the good old experienced campaigners are trying to twist things now :) :)... heh just kiddin... but the discussion started from (1)holding hands, (2)hands on shoulders and eww a (3)quick kiss or a (4) quick hug [i](can any bro take my hand and show me the way to my home coz i'm closing my eyes.. can't stand number 3 & 4 !)[/i] So i was saying those 4 were the points which asked me to join the anti PDA group :) and if the definition changes i'll switch parties (political games heh :) ) Okay now, seriously speaking, have you guys ever read/heard the incident when once Hazrat Uthmaan [ra] visited Nabee [saw] and the half of Prophet's calf was uncovered (His full satter was covered though) and few companions were already sitting next to the Prophet [saw] but when Hazrat Uthmaan [ra] came to Him, He covered His calf to the full and later when Sahaba [ra] asked the Prophet [saw] about this action of His, He replied by saying that "even the angels are amazed by Uthmaan's hayya" Well obviously Prophet [saw] appreciated the extra effort that Hazrat Uthmaan used to put in the matters of hayya As bro Abu_Hamza said, Hayya was a thing once admired/appreciated so true bro Abu_Hamza Asim Zafar |
| 05/20/03 at 09:34:08 |
| Nomi |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Al-Basha |
| 05/20/03 at 20:24:16 |
| [slm] When i first saw the title to this topic im like hey wait whats it doing in here, it should be in the Hikmah forum ... Anyhow, I guess hugging in public is ok but anything else might be a bit much. Allahu A3laam. |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| dhikr83 |
| 05/21/03 at 22:08:58 |
| [slm] yesterday me and bam bam showed se7en a whole lotta PDA's walkin da streetz of da city (we visited Lboogie!) ;) (i think she enjoyed it :P) hahha :-/ wsalaamio ~razia |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| nouha |
| 05/24/03 at 06:23:47 |
| [slm] im kinda late in responding to this topic but here goes... i think PDA is a must...my personal opinion...its beautiful when not taken to the extreme (like the time i saw a hijabi and other guy really making out in public) hugs, arms around each other, holding hands... they are soooo sweet... i dont mean to sound girly at all...:) in the time of the Prophet [saw] , he [saw] used to take Aisha (rathiya lahuanha) to races and put his arm out so that she can rest her head on it. i have the citation somewhere...have to find it. PDA is a beautiful thing...and goin off from dhikr.... how about same sex PDA, to your own brother and sisters in islam... do u think theirs a limit to that.... me, seven, dhikr, jannah, etc have all walked holding arms, hands... is that sending out a wrong message? wasalam nouha:) |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Barr |
| 05/24/03 at 09:59:32 |
| [slm] warahmatullah :-) [quote]PDA is a beautiful thing...and goin off from dhikr.... how about same sex PDA, to your own brother and sisters in islam... do u think theirs a limit to that.... me, seven, dhikr, jannah, etc have all walked holding arms, hands... is that sending out a wrong message? [/quote] I used to be kinda PDA with my sisters.. walking in arms, holding hands etc... especially with my larger-sized sisters. I feel more secure, plus, it feels better when U have a larger arm to hold on to ;D I guess, girls are more PDA with each other than guys do. Then it kinda decreases as I grew older. Plus, also...some people might think "otherwise" (esp, when I'm in the west). I'd rather not invite any unnecessary fitnah. I was once told by a brother its not good for sisters to hug each other in public, but its OK when its more private :o I was told it was hayaa'. Anyways.. I still hug sisters in public.. people don't make it like a big deal here. But I do get embarrassed when sisters kiss me, or put their head on my shoulders, when they're tired... yikes! especially when sisters "smell" you, instead of just planting a kiss on the cheek. yikes! I get so worried if they're gonna choke when they take a whiff of me. I mean.. I don't put talcum on my face, like when I was a little girl. Anyways, I've got no problems with PDAs within the same gender or when one is married. But I do think one has to be sensitive to where they are and what the community is used to. No use, stirring up the fitnah pot. [quote]it seems that across the board guys are more resistant to the idea of displaying affection than girls (this is the case with Muslims and non).. and we concluded that it is because -- guys have a harder time being expressive in general; and because such actions usually have a more sexual connotation for men than for women.[/quote] I share your hypothesis. :) Wassalam |
| 05/24/03 at 10:01:17 |
| Barr |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Nomi |
| 05/25/03 at 16:23:04 |
| [slm] all This thread got hijacked :P... first they changed the original definition of PDA and now sisters are talking about same gender PDA but the topic originally talked about PDA "couples". and no one replied to my previous post :) Asim Zafar [i]PS: same gender PDA is A okay with me, there are limits though ... and holding hands with spouse would be the limit for me[/i] :) |
| 05/25/03 at 18:25:02 |
| Nomi |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| Nabila |
| 05/25/03 at 16:41:28 |
| [slm] The sweetest thing I have ever seen was when I was in a Saudi shoppin mall, I saw this Saudi guy wearing a thawb who was holding hands with his wife, who was dressed completely in black from head to toe, face and hands all covered up. They had eyes ony for each other.. It was truly a Kodak moment. Bless :) ma asalaamah and take care |
| Re: How do you feel [about PDAs]? |
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| AbdulBasir |
| 05/26/03 at 02:46:58 |
| [slm] Assuming the definition of PDA here is the way we tend to understand it, i.e physical intimate displays of affection between partners, as has been said by several already, there is well established evidence in the Sunnah and the practice of the Companions permitting the public holding of hands. As for intimate contact in public more than that, from what can be taken from the shuyookh and opinions I've come across, which is limited, it at best [i]shouldn't[/i] be done. Whether it is not permissible is another issue. There is a difference. In any event, that is something a scholar should speak on, so I will stop there. However, one comment regarding other "alternative" forms of PDA, as se7en suggested. Though these forms are not customarily construed as PDA (which by custom are seen as the physical intimate gestures), they serve as perhaps a clue as to why physical PDA's are restrained in our tradition and should be reflected on as food for thought. There may be nothing textually that prohibits in public a husband calling his wife by a certain affectionate title, or kindly feeding her a morsel of food across a restaurant table, or helping with her coat, or sharing a loving glance. Indeed these are all wonderful and blessed manifestations of the great love Allah SWT has put between the couple, be they in public or private. Nevertheless, when a Muslim goes out in public, he or she has not only a responsibility to do no harm to his/her fellow Muslims but also has the responsibility to protect himself/herself from the harms that may come upon themselves from going out in public. These harms are not necessarily physical ones from fellow human beings; they also include the harms from the unseen world, be they the seemingly innocuous public sights and sounds that incite the hidden shahawaat in our own nafs or the forces of the shayateen which relentlessly pursue us. Along with the masaajid, our very homes are a refuge and sanctuary to protect us from these forces. That is why Rasulallah[saw] encouraged both men and women to be in their homes whenever they can and to avoid being in public without need or reason (as can be gleaned for example from the oft-quoted hadith where Rasulallah[saw] instructs a group of Companions the etiquettes and conditions of being out on the street in public). The foundation of these sanctuaries that our are homes is the family, and at its root, a loving marriage. It is the foundation of public society, yet its beauty, intricacy, subtlety and profound spiritual and emotional intimacy is [i]intensely[/i] private. The public may get hardly a glimpse of it according to the established norms of our pious predecessors, such as the holding of hands, yet it forms and molds everything that the public *is*. We are blessed to know the intimate details of our most beloved, Rasulallah[saw] and how he was with his wives. Indeed, as some of the scholars mention, the necessity of the Mothers of the Believers presence was vital towards the complete guidance of our deen, for they could relate in the ahadith these emotionally intimate relations and loving gestures that were shielded from the public realm for they occurred in the privacy of Ahl-ul-Bayt. It was necessary for these private and personal recollections of the Ahl-ul-Bayt to be recorded and publicized, so that all Muslims for all time would have the Prophetic guidance in their private domestic life. If this hadn't been bestowed on us, we would have no guidance in our personal family matters, and Islam would not be the complete way of life that it is. Yet the fact remains, that had it not been for these reports, many, if not all, of these gestures would have remained shielded from public knowledge, which brings us to a point that we should think about. Again, the marital relationship is an intensely private and powerful relationship; seeing that it is the strength of society, it has to be scrupulously protected by all means. And this entails, to quote Shaykh Abdullah Adhami , a need to "protect your realm". This requires the marital relationship to be protected from the two potential harms of going out of public mentioned earlier, the harm to others and the harm to oneself. Yes, the love between a married couple is a beautiful thing to behold, but that very love if it is overtly manifested in excess publicly, can unintentionally harm. It can do this by several means. As some of the shuyookh have mentioned, a potential indirect danger of a "good" marriage is that it may incite pride amongst the partners, to such an extent that one, or both, may in effect begin to intentionally (and even unintentionally) boast to others, either by word or by action, of how wonderful their relationship or their spouse is. This may have two consequences: 1) It may foster perhaps the worst spiritual disease of the heart, pride, within one or both of the marital partners, and pride can amongst other things, lead to ingratitude and selfishness, and in essence this pride may come back to roost to the home after being manifested publicly and create havoc within their very own relationship. 2) It may foster feelings of insecurity within other persons in public, married or unmarried. Amongst the unmarried, it may incite feelings and desires within them which cannot be put in the appropriate channels at the given time and thus create feelings of sadness, frustration, or at worst, lead them towards something prohibited. Amongst the married, it may lead to the inevitable comparison which may ensue in seeing a relative "deficiency" in one's own marital relationship. This could take a form of an external grievance (i.e "How come you don't do that for me like so and so?) or more concerning, internal doubts ("Look at the way he looks at her! Look how sweet she is with him! My husband/wife doesn't do that, why can't he/she be more like that?). These two things can thus create havoc in other people's relationships. This harm, in all its forms, can jeopardize the marital relationship, be it ones own, or others. The realm is being jeopardized. Though we cannot be held accountable for the reactions and inner struggles of others, it befits the Muslim to go above and beyond what he/she is responsible for and to take into account the considerations of others. Now what of the case of a couple who manifests their love publicly, perhaps to bit of excess, but they do it not out of pride but out of pure sincerity and love for one another? This still creates harm, for while the married couple may be free from falling into their own spiritual diseases, the effect on the others in public remains the same. And in this case, while out of no fault of their own, the married couple may become sources of hasad (envy) for the others, which may even lead to the evil eye. This again may have an effect on either the couple or others. And again, the realm is being jeopardized. And when this realm of marriage is jeopardized, the entire society is at risk. So we must protect our realm. Mind you, this is not to put a damper on the PDA discussion, nor to say that the alternative non-physical forms should not be done. Indeed they should be given their just due and may in certain circumstances, be a good thing for others to see. They may actually be unavoidable, for they may naturally, without even thought, become manifest due to the pure love between the two, just as the one blessed with a pure heart by Allah SWT cannot help but be naturally inclined to do all that is good. These moments can be, and are, a beautiful thing, provided they are within the limits of our deen and its standard of moderation, sincerity, discretion and foresight. However, there are potentially more profound consequences to these things than simply the seemingly harmless manifestation of a moment of love between two people. They can have deeper effects and we must always strive to protect ourselves and our realm, which by extension protects society. As always, just my two dirhams, everything said here is my own rambling uneducated opinions, and Allah knows best. As an aside, the best "PDA's" I have ever seen are in the Haram during the Tawaf or Sa'i, when one sees a husband with arms around his wife, protecting her from the throngs of people around them (no doubt a necessity protecting from greater harm), as they make dhikr and du'a together to the Lord of all Worlds in his very House. That's what it's all about eh? :) [slm]:) |
| 05/26/03 at 05:20:22 |
| AbdulBasir |
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board |