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Secret Marriages
Shahida
05/06/03 at 07:39:40
[slm]

I think someone stuck a "marriage counsellor" sign to my back when I wasn't looking.  It's gonna be a lovely week :(

Here is another situation I need some insight on please.  

Firstly let me say that my first exposure to this phenomenon was here at university.  In my third year, I accidentally stumbled upon 2 Muslims kissing behind the lecture theatre one morning.  Oh well, what's new?  Common sighting, at least these two didnt do it out in the open for everyone to see.  The guy felt too guilty and ran after me to explain.  He told me that she is his wife, I was too embarrassed and ran off, sithout much explanation.  When I reached outside,  I was like HUH? I knew him from 1st year, and he never ever told me he was married.  ???

Anyway, he found me later that day and explained that he is married in secret, and his parents and hers do not know about it.  :o They married at 17 and didn't tell anyone, because her parents would not approve of him, and his parents would not approve of her.

Again I was totally speechless???  I later found out that it is quite a common thing around here, and 2 other couples are married in secret as well.

So yesterday a young friend of mine came to ask about my opinion, cuz she wants to marry this guy, but their parents will hear nothing about it, so they are planning to get married in secret.  I told her to talk to someone else about it, as I have no idea what to say.

Is there not such a thing as marriages should be publisized?  Maybe not in the New York Times, but at least people should *know* that so and so is married? Right?  Anyone have any idea why this is?  Obviously, so that no-one else goes and proposes to that girl/guy, and if they are seen in public together, no-one would have bad thoughts about them.  Any other reasons?

Anyone else heard about this secret marriage thing?  Legality of it etc.?  I am going to see an Imaam about this on the weekend, but would like to know if anyone has researched this before?

JazakumAllahu khairun
May Allah help us all to have wonderful Halaal and open marriages, that will please Him.

Salam
Shahida
Re: Secret Marriages
theOriginal
05/06/03 at 08:27:51
[slm]

I, like you, have come across too many couples who have been married in secret.  

I asked my own Imam about it, and the only thing he said was that he would not perform a Nikkah without the legal document issued from the government (i.e. civil marriage document), since this is against Canadian law.  (illegal under Canadian law: religious marriage ceremony without the civil marriage signing.)..

There are certain imams in the Toronto area, however, who are willing to this.  One of my best friends has done her nikkah in this manner (which I completely disagree with, to this day), and her Imam told her that he is willing to break civil law in order to make sure that they (the couple) do not break divine law.  (follow?)

I do not think it is haraam, since there is consent from both the guy and the girl, but please if and when you find out, do let me know.  

I have found that with the 3 couples I know who have done this (I am very close with all 3 girls, which is probably why I knew about their secret nikkahs...which makes me wonder how many others might be out there), all three of them have had to face problems that are very unique to secret marriages.

In one case, the couple ended up getting divorced in secret too (after 3 yrs of marriage), and now the girl's faith in Allah has been pretty much destroyed, unfortunately.  

In another case, her parents found one of her e-mails to her husband, which would concern ANY parent, after which they questioned her, after which she explained that they were married...after which they kicked her out of the house.  Her husband, alhumdulillah, took responsibility for being married to her.  She is now living with her husband's family...but there are so many problems with that, as you can imagine.  

The third couple, Alhumdulillah are doing fine, although they have their own sets of problems... basically, the girl has problems obeying her parents when her husband wants her to do something completely to the contrary.  They will inshaAllah officially get married this fall, because they both have realized that it can't continue like this.

I just don't know.  Is it worth it, really?  And what's the beef with telling your parents?  If they won't approve, is it worth sacrificing their trust just because you fell in love with someone?

On the flip side, I guess not getting married could be risky, but that's why we have Islam, and that's why we have to continually work on enforcing yaqeen in our hearts....i don't know...  

I pray that Allah swt keeps us all in the folds of imaan.

Wasalaam.
Re: Secret Marriages
theOriginal
05/06/03 at 08:33:53
[slm]

Oh one more thing...

Before she does anything, ask your friend to make sure she has exhausted the possibility of bringing this up to her parents.  If she is okay with talking to her parents, but the guy is insisting on secrecy, then that's her first reality check.  If it's HER parents they are afraid of, then she can move to the next step of THINKING about it.

Advise your friend to think about it more than once.  Tell her to consult an imaam.

And that's all I got.

10-4.
Re: Secret Marriages
Kathy
05/06/03 at 08:48:27
[slm]

Secret marriages... bah humbug... I don't see anything good from them.  What does it do to a persons character when people see them together all the time..and assume they are not married?

When my hubby & I got married, there was a social/public wedding. However, he did not tell his parents who were overseas. The problems it caused! He never called them, nor gave them his new phone number. Apparently they found out because a cousin had seen him and me together. Later I found out another girl was arranged for him.

Bottom line... too much deciet.
Re: Secret Marriages
Maliha
05/06/03 at 09:07:02
[slm]
As women Islam gives us dignity and protects our honor. The institution of Marriage is sealed not only by the consent of the woman, but her Wali and witnesses. The main point that Kathy touched upon is the issue of reputation and respect for her self.
Not only that, but what happens when things go wrong? Who is their advisor, where is the family to give the support and structure to fall back on when they can't manage on their own?
What happens when they are divorced, as the girl's situation...what does she tell her next husband? I got married secretly?...
I can't imagine secretly marrying someone, I think it's kinda cheapening your worth...If the family is against it, the couple should get the Imam to speak to them. Or at least hold a conversation with their parents, if they are mature enough to get married, they should be responsible enough to have a frank talk and let their parents know what the deal is.
There is dignity afforded on behalf of the woman, when your family is around you, your brothers, your parents, your sisters, friends, celebrating, decorating you, and presenting you amidst tears of joy to your new spouse. The advice given, the friendly threats from brothers, the wonderful air filled with love and duah is something that lasts and those memories are irreplaceable.
The images of sneaking out to get married and then meeting in alley ways, and bleachers sounds immature, deceitful, and honestly downright stupid to say the least.
I think I read a hadith once that talks about the importance of announcing marriage and even an accepted proposal (I'll look it up Inshaallah).
Anywayz, just my two useless cents  :P
Sis,
Maliha :-)
[wlm]
05/06/03 at 09:08:29
Maliha
Re: Secret Marriages
bhaloo
05/06/03 at 09:08:36
[slm]

I remember we had this issue come up before.  There is no marriage without the permission of the wali (guardian), otherwise the marriage is invalid (batil) according to the opinion of  3 of the 4 schools of thought.  According to the hanafis, there are some conditions where it is possible (al-Hedeya talks about this)  But anyways this was from Sheikh Munajjid.

Praise be to Allaah.  

Firstly:

It is not permissible for a man to marry a woman without the permission of her guardian, whether she is a virgin or previously-married. This is the view of the majority of scholars, including al-Shaafa’i, Maalik and Ahmad. This is based on evidence which includes the following:

The verses in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“do not prevent them from marrying their (former) husbands”

[al-Baqarah 2:232]

“And do not marry Al-Mushrikaat (idolatresses) till they believe (worship Allaah Alone)”

[al-Baqarah 2:221]

“and marry those among you who are single”

[al-Noor 24:32]

The point here is that these verses clearly stipulate that there be a guardian in marriage, because Allaah is addressing the guardian with regard to the marriage of the woman under his care. If the matter were up to her and not him, there would be no need to address him.

It is indicative of Imam al-Bukhaari’s deep understanding of issues of sharee’ah that he quoted these verses in a chapter which he entitled “Baab man qaala la nikaaha illa bi wali (Chapter on those who say that there is no marriage without a guardian).”

It was narrated that Abu Moosa said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no marriage without a guardian.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1101; Abu Dawood, 2085; Ibn Maajah, 1881. Classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi, 1/318)

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: Any woman who gets married without the permission of her guardian, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid. But if the marriage is consummated then the mahr is hers because she has allowed him to be intimate with her. If they dispute, then the ruler is the guardian of the one who has no guardian.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1102; Abu Dawood, 2083; Ibn Maajah, 1879. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel, 1840)

Secondly: If her guardian prevents her from marrying the person she wants for no valid reason according to sharee’ah, then the role of guardian passes to the next closest relative, so it passes from the father to the grandfather, for example.

Thirdly: if all of her guardians prevent her from getting married for no valid reason according to sharee’ah, then the ruler is her guardian, because of the hadeeth quoted above (“…If they dispute, then the ruler is the guardian of the one who has no guardian”)

Fourthly: if there is no guardian and no ruler, then her marriage is to be arranged by a man who has authority in the place where she is, such as the head of a village, or the governor of a province, and so on. If there is no such person, then she should appoint a trustworthy Muslim man to arrange her marriage.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

If there is no relative who can act as her guardian, then the position of guardian passes to the one who is most fit among those who have any kind of authority in matters other than marriage, such as the head of a village, the leader of a caravan, and so on.

Al-Ikhtiyaaraat, p. 350.

Ibn Qudaamah said: If a woman does not have a guardian and there is no ruler, then there was narrated from Ahmad that which indicates that her marriage should be arranged by a man of sound character, with her permission.

Al-Mughni, 9/362.

Shaykh ‘Umar al-Ashqar said:

If there is no ruler of the Muslims, or if the woman is in a place where the Muslims have no ruler, and she has no guardian at all, like the Muslims in America and elsewhere, if there are Islamic institutions in that country that take care of the Muslims’ affairs, then they should arrange her marriage. The same applies if the Muslims have a leader who is in charge or someone who is responsible for their affairs.  

Al-Waadih fi Sharh Qanoon al-Ahwaal al-Shakhsiyyah al-Urduni, p. 70

The marriage contract must be witnessed by two adult male Muslims of sound mind.
Re: Secret Marriages
a_Silver_Rose
05/06/03 at 16:40:57
As'Salaamu Alaikum!

ok I in no way support a secret marriage  but I do feel for these people.
I see it this way. They could have done anything with each other, but no they decided to get married. Now whether the marriage is valid or not I dont know. They do think it was valid. Also I was reading in the old board where someone said that Hanafi sais you dont have to have the approval of the wali. On the other hand I hear you should make a nikkah public, so I think these kids need to face the world and tell people about their marriage.
What I really think should be done is to educate the parents! They tried to tell their parents but the parents didnt agree. Why? They are in that age where they need a soulmate.

Anyway Allah (swt) knows best.

05/06/03 at 21:13:22
a_Silver_Rose
Re: Secret Marriages
BroHanif
05/06/03 at 18:09:04
salaams,

What if your parents did not agree, at all costs would you still hold out and not get married and become a spinster or would you get marrried regardless of whether you have their blessings or not ?.

Sis Mystic I know Imans who have talked to parents and have been lucky just to hear a couple of swear words and not receive a black eye. Too many instances the couple feel that the only solution to their problem is running away and then getting married.

And you know whos failed em most, its the society because when we lack the correct social infrastructure to help with these problems then your going to see extreme cases, like running away or the parents saying if you get married to that gangster/witch then I'm going to have a caridac arrest.

It really is hard trying to convince young loved ones to take things easy, the solution is to have some sort of marrige service where people can talk openly without threat,  intimidation, guilt trips and all with good wisdom. Otherwise our divorce rates and secret marriges will continue to rise in the Muslim community.

Salaams

Hanif
NS
05/06/03 at 18:53:31
BroHanif
Re: Secret Marriages
a_Silver_Rose
05/06/03 at 18:37:50
[slm]
Exactly what Uncle Hanif said. Also there are two many parents who will disagree to marriage, because of age/money/race/status/ ect. All unislamic reasons. Now you think well the person shouldnt have gotten involved with someone in the first place. Well I will tell you there are too many  'born' Muslims who havent been educated in Islam in their house (and think its ok to be friends w/ opp gender) and have only been educated in cultural values. Alot of this actually leads them to find someone who understands b/c they get so confused on cultural valueus which some think is religion.
I have read that if your father is saying no b/c of unislamic reasons then you can find another wali and get married. I believe t here is a difference of opinon on this matter. Also maybe the imam married them in Toronto because they parents were saying no cause of unislamic reasons ???

Uncle Hanif right now I am talking to a girl whose parents are emotionally blackmailing her to marry a man. She is in love with someone else. What should I tell her? anyone? (sorry 2 hijack ur thread sis Shahida ;D)
Re: Secret Marriages
BroHanif
05/06/03 at 19:04:32
Salaams,

[quote]Uncle Hanif right now I am talking to a girl whose parents are emotionally blackmailing her to marry a man. She is in love with someone else. What should I tell her? anyone? (sorry 2 hijack ur thread sis Shahida [/quote]

I think best advice would be a marrige counsellor and seriously not some wacky guy like me with a pen name like Madina Wrestler and Uncle Hanif.

Couple of things to ask, does she know what love is ? Is it a crush or is it something more serious so much so that love has blinded her ?.

Is the man that her parents are proposing she sees as a jerk/nerd/brother or someone who see feels is not compatible with ?.

Do you think you could talk to her about pros and cons about each situation?. Her parents may know more about this guy thats why they find him suitable or its in the family.

Above all when speakin to her, speak to her as a friend and whichever way she goes be there for her in the long run.

I'm sorry I can't help you more but you can always try my good sis 'Barr' shes an expert in family values(marrige).

Salaams

Hanif
NS
Re: Secret Marriages
Ruqayyah
05/06/03 at 19:28:00
[slm]

Wow, there are so many things wrong w/ the whole idea of secret marriages, it's hard to know where to begin. A lot of good points have already been brought up, like you might want to make use of your wali for instance.

I think that if you get married in secret because you can't or won't tell your parents or you have, but they don't approve, they probably have a legitimate reason against the marriage, except of course in instances when they don't. It completely takes the responsibility that comes w/ a marriage out of the whole equation. It seems to me that for a couple to get married in secret, they are just trying to make it "legal" in their minds so they can have some fun.

And going out and getting hitched w/out telling your parents will make it THAT much harder for them to ever trust you again. I'm in favor of the idea of taking it to the imam or maybe another family member who can talk to the families involved.

And what about your own kids?? Do you think they'll hesitate at all to do the same thing when they grow up?

Sigh, there seems to be so many problems these days in the arena of marriage. I apologize if this post came off a little angry, it's really just out of frustration  :(

[wlm]
ruqayyah

Re: Secret Marriages
Abu_Hamza
05/06/03 at 20:43:37
[slm]

Sr. silverose, it seems you haven't read what bhaloo posted.  Please take a look at it.

Shahidah, and others: Two wrongs don't make a right.  Even if we assume these two kids (yes, that's what they were when they got married, kids) were interested in each other for all the right reasons, and yet their parents both rejected their marriage for all the wrong reasons, that still doesn't mean they can go and get married secretly.

Again, two wrongs don't make a right.

Who do you blame?  The kids?  The parents?  The society?  It really depends on the situation.  One cannot generalize.  Who knows why these kids were interested in each other.  Who knows why the parents were not in favor of the marriage.  Who knows what kind of community they were living in.  

Secret marriage is not a marriage.  You cannot justify it by saying, oh it's better than no marriage.  That's like saying praying without wudoo is better than not praying at all!  The prayer is not a prayer without wudoo.  The marriage is not a marriage without it being public.  

The walee is not the only issue here.  There have to be witnesses, and the marriage has to be open.  Even if we go by Imam Abu Hanifa's opinion, which states a woman may marry without having a walee (*with* certain stipulations, which most likely do *not* apply in the case being talked about here), it still doesn't mean the marriage can happen in secrecy.  It has to be made public.  The only thing Imam Abu Hanifa says is the woman doesn't have to have a walee.  He doesn't say anything about the marriage being ok if done in secrecy!

Allahu musta3aan, wa laa hawla walaa quwwta illaa billah.

P.S.  Please note that my post does *not* imply that the couple should be ridiculed, condemned, insulted, shown contempt, or anything of that nature.  

Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
Re: Secret Marriages
a_Silver_Rose
05/06/03 at 20:54:46
[wlm]

[quote]Sr. silverose, it seems you haven't read what bhaloo posted.  Please take a look at it. [/quote]
Yes I have read what Bhaloo posted, not once but many times.
I stand by what I say.

I do think its better than no marriage to do what they are doing, although I in no way justified it. I said the kids think they are married (that means they have some morals or else they wouldn never go to the trouble to do that)

I think you should also try to understand their postition and how they grew up. I agree, cant generalize but alot of timez this is what happens.
If you read what I wrote then you will see that I also wrote that they should pulicize it. They might have had witnesses, you dont know about that. If you reread what I wrote then you will also notice I said 'I in no way support secret marriages'
05/06/03 at 21:00:02
a_Silver_Rose
Re: Secret Marriages
bhaloo
05/06/03 at 21:06:05
[slm]

Sister Silverrose, no offense intended but I was also wondering (like Abu Hamza) if you did read what I put up.  As for the older thread on the old board where tje Hanafi's opinion was put up (it was taken from Al-Hedeya, and put up by me), Abu Hamza is right, alhumdullilah.   It is important to note that there are stipulations.  

05/06/03 at 21:58:44
bhaloo
Re: Secret Marriages
Abu_Hamza
05/07/03 at 01:21:21
[slm]

Sr. Silverose, it seems that you took my entire last post to be addressed to you.  If you look back, I addressed you specifically only in the first line.  The rest was not directed to you alone, but to everyone.  I apologize if I came across as reprimanding you personally for what you had written.
Re: Secret Marriages
BroHanif
05/07/03 at 02:43:37
Salaams,

You should at least tell your friends that your getting married or the nikah is taking place. Even if its a handful of people, that way hopefully the marrige will not be secret. It also depends what a person views as public is it the case of inviting a 1,000 guest to a banquet or just some close family and friends. Whats your view as secret nikah ?

Salaams

Hanif
NS
Re: Secret Marriages
Nomi
05/07/03 at 09:26:17
[slm] all

so secret marriage = when none of the acquaintances is aware that you got married? or two males or three females (strangers) are enough as witnesses to islamically declare the marriage? ... i'll ask for the scholarly opinion today inshAllah, but whatever the definition of secret mariage is its not a marriage according to the rulings of islam and that makes it a "zina" !

But why should one marry without the consent of one's parents?? i mean our parents bring us up, go through all sorts of troubles during the process, if we just imagine the whole process then would it sound sane to just bypass them when it comes to marriage! i dont think so.

Those who intend to get married should try to convince their parents in all possible ways, ask their friends to talk to their parents, may be an imam or a counselor as well, if they can be bold enough to marry secretly then what hitch there can be in doing the said.

[quote]
two bads dont make a good
[/quote]

Islamically secret marriage is not a marriage then that should be it, no stretching should be done to the rule, marrying without the consent of parents is another topic but secret marriage!!! Allah forbid, thats "zina", a friend of mine was also thinking on these lines but all thanks to Allah we discussed the matter and he left the thought.

[quote]
what would you tell your next life partner if you get divorced after getting married secretly ?
[/quote]

exactly, what would they tell them... and frankly speaking, ladies are the one who suffer the most in the cases that go wrong after marrying secretly, a guy can easily find another life partner without letting her know that he ever got married, how can a lady possibly hide (if she wants to) this fact that she was secretly-married b4, this will undoubtably destroy the social system.

Parents should be flexible too as many of them go after unislamic parameters like wealth, high pay scale etc, the age at which ppl should get married is a whole new topic because even after reaching puberty if someone has to stay single for so many years then its like making life difficult for one's ownself, i'm not generalizing here but there are many cases which conclude to unislamic practices because of the said

coming back to the topic... wouldn't it be "zina" ?

Asim Zafar
[i]PS: didn't mean to offend anyone, i myself am looking for answers, what i wrote about zina is just the logical interpretion of the situation[/i]
Re: Secret Marriages
Nomi
05/07/03 at 14:24:54
went to see that scholar but dint find him...
Re: Secret Marriages
se7en
05/08/03 at 11:41:14

as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,

from http://www.java-man.com/Pages/Marriage/Marriage05.html (awesome article)

[color=black]

Conditions for the Soundness of a Marriage Contract
There are ten conditions (shuroot) in this category.  Some are agreed upon by virtually all the scholars while others are the subject of some disagreement.
[...]

Two non-discredited witnesses.
There is some difference of opinion on this issue, but in the final analysis, the hadith is clear.
Ibn Taimia mentioned four existing opinions on this issue:
(1) The marriage must be announced and made public, regardless of whether the contract was actually witnessed or not.  This was the opinion of Malik as well as the scholars of hadith, the Dhaahiris and one opinion reported from Ahamd.
(2) It is obligatory to have witnesses, regardless of whether the marriage contract is made public or not.  This was the view of Abu Hanifah, Ash-Shafi'iy and another opinion reported from Ahmad.
(3) Both witnesses and a public announcement are necessary.  This is a third narration from Ahmad.
(4) Either one of the two is necessary.  This is a fourth narration from Ahmad.

Ibn Taimia himself felt that the second opinion (only witnesses required) is weak.   He claimed that there was no authentic source for same and that it was not widely known among the Muslims.  Instead, what is required is the public pronouncement letting the people know that the parties got married.  He says that if a marriage takes place without witnesses or public announcement it is definitely invalid, if it takes place with witnesses but no announcement it is questionable and if it takes place with both it is definitely valid.

The portion of Ibn Taimia's opinion which finds the witnesses NOT a requirement must be rejected, because the hadith on this subject has been found to be sahih:

"Laa nikaaha illa bi waliyin wa shaahidaiy 'adlin"
"No marriage except with a guardian and two non-discredited witnesses."

So the bottom line here is that BOTH the witnesses AND the public announcement are required. In fact, regarding public announcement, the Maliki school says that if the other parties ask the witnesses to keep it silent that the marriage is not valid and the two are to be separated - PERMANENTLY!  
[/color]


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