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| question about hadith |
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| Jawad |
| 05/30/03 at 08:57:42 |
| i was wondering if anyone knew if this hadith was weak or authentic im not gonna quote it exactly but its something along the lines of the Prophet (pbuh) saying that when a girl hits puberty the only parts of her body you should see are your hands and face, and he pointed to his hands and face. |
| Re: question about hadith |
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| jannah |
| 05/30/03 at 23:59:39 |
| [wlm] Regardless of the grade of that particular hadith, it is sound in meaning and correct Islamically. |
| Re: question about hadith |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 05/31/03 at 00:00:19 |
| [slm] [quote]The hadith of Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) when Asmaa (Radhiallaahu Ánha) the daughter of Abu Bakr came to the Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) while wearing thin clothing. He approached her and said: 'O Asmaa! When a girl reaches the menstrual age, it is not proper that anything should remain exposed except this and this. He pointed to the face and hands. But this hadith is WEAK because of 2 main weaknesses. 1. There is no link between Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) and Khalid bin Dareek, who narrated the hadith from her. And in every chain of narrators Khalid bin Dareek is mentioned. 2. In the chain os narrators Sa'eed bin Basheer appears, who is known by most of the Muhaditheen as being a weak narrator. This has been mentioned by Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Rahimahullah), An-Nasai (Rahimahullah), Ibn Madeeni (Rahimahullah) and Ibn Ma'een (Rahimahullah). This is also why Imaam Bukhari (Rahimahullah) and Muslim (Rahimahullah) did not except this hadith to be in their books. (From Shaikh Ibn Uthaimin in the book "Hijaab" pages # 17 and 18.) We also have to see that the Muhadith Abu Dawood when he quoted this hadith put with it that it is Musal (with a broken chain that does not lead up to the Sahaba). (From The Book "Hijaab wa Safur" under tha fatwaa of Shaikh AbulAziz Bin Bazz on Page #61. Also stated as being weak by Shaikh Nasirudden Al-Albaani in his Daeef Sunan Abu Dawud in Kitab-ul-Libas under hadeeth number 4092 (which is the original hadeeth number.) It has also been mentioned in the magazine called "Al Hijrah" that Ullima agree this hadith is weak.) An other thing that shows the weakness of this hadith is that after the ayah for hijab (Surah Al-Ahzaab – Verse #59) was revealed then the women of Sahaba wore a complete veil and covered the faces and hands. This includes Asmaa (Radhiallaahu Ánha) the daughter of Abu Bakr, who is supposed to have narrated this hadith. Asmaa (Radhiallaahu Ánha)covered herself completly including tha face, this has been narrated in authentic hadith in Imaam maliks "MUWATTA Book 20 Hadith # 20.5.16." [/quote] source: http://members.tripod.com/ibnfarooq/niqaab.htm#ref |
| Re: question about hadith |
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| Jawad |
| 05/31/03 at 00:47:43 |
| the above post is exactly what i read on a website that made me question the authenticity of the hadith but then the fact that many scholars say that covering the face is not necessary, and theres still many people who say that hadith is in fact authentic so i dont know thanks for your help! salaamualaykum |
| Re: question about hadith |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 05/31/03 at 01:09:26 |
| [wlm] I think it is better if you research on your own really which scholars believe what. But even if they do believe that then I think there is no doubt that niqaab is highly recommened. Plus we cant discuss here but I just wanted to share this thought I had.. Lets say that hadith is authentic. It says the prophet pointed to the face and hands. How do we know he didnt just point to the eyes? |
| 05/31/03 at 01:13:20 |
| a_Silver_Rose |
| Re: question about hadith |
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| Taalibatul_ilm |
| 05/31/03 at 01:51:54 |
| [slm] [quote]It says the prophet pointed to the face and hands. How do we know he didnt just point to the eyes? [/quote] I'm sure you didn't mean to sister, but this statement is pretty big. The Sahaba and those after them transmitted this hadeeth saying that he [saw] pointed to her face and hands, we cannot then suppose that he pointed to her eyes and think that this hadeeth was transmitted incorrectly. Again, I'm sure you didn't mean it like it came off, but it is quite dangerous to nullify what has been passed down by our righteous predessors. :) The strength of this hadeeth is argued by many a great scholar, some, including Sheikh Albani, may Allah be merciful to him, grade it as acceptable, others call into question some in its chain. |
| 05/31/03 at 01:52:55 |
| Taalibatul_ilm |
| Re: question about hadith |
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| bhaloo |
| 05/31/03 at 09:52:19 |
| [slm] Jazak Allah khairen Taalibatul_Ilm. In response to this hadith, Sheikh Albani wrote a refutation to those that claimed it was inauthentic. Here is his response: The extremists have declared well-established reliable narrations as unreliable and feigned ignorance of strengthening narrations. They have further declared some narrations extremely inauthentic, like the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah concerning the woman who reaches puberty, “Nothing should be seen of her besides her face and hands.” They have persistently declared it inauthentic – the ignorant among them blindly following others devoid of knowledge. In so doing, they contradict those among the leading scholars of hadeeth who strengthen it like al-Bayhaqee and ath-Thahabee. Most of them, including some prominent scholars, feign ignorance of its various chains of narration. In fact, at-Tuwaijree openly stated on page 236 of his book that this statement was only narrated in ‘Aa’ishah’s hadeeth. Even though he has seen with his own eyes on pages 57-9 of my book two other chains: one of which is from Asmaa bint ‘Umays and the other from Qataadah in the abbreviated (mursal) format with an authentic chain of narration. Many of the blind followers followed him, including some female authors as in Hijaabuki ukhtee al-muslimah [Your veil, my sister Muslim], page 33. They also pretend to be ignorant of the leading hadeeth scholars and others who strengthened it, like al-Munthiree, az-Zayla‘ee, al-‘Asqlaanee and ash-Shawkaanee. Some of those who promote themselves as being among the well versed in this noble science – in their forefront Shaykh as-Sindee – claim that some of its narrations are extremely weak and unreliable in order to escape from the hadeeth science rule that ‘unreliable narrations are strengthened by narrations similar to them’. In doing that, they delude their readers into thinking that no one ruled the weak narrators, like ‘Abdullaah ibn Lahee‘ah, trustworthy and that they cannot be used as supportive evidence. In doing that, they contradict the methodology of the hadeeth scholars in using supportive evidence. Among them is Imaam Ahmad and Ibn Taymiyyah – may Allaah have mercy on them. Likewise, they all feign ignorance that the scholars – among them Imaam ash-Shaafi‘ee –confirm the hadeeth mursal if most scholars use it as evidence, as is the case of ‘Aa’ishah’s hadeeth. Other strengthening factors may be added to the above. (a) The hadeeth has been narrated by Qataadah from ‘Aa’ishah. (b) It has been narrated in another chain from Asmaa. (c) All three narrators of the hadeeth ruled according to it. Qataadah stated in his interpretation of the verse on draping, “Allaah has placed on them the requirement to cover the eyebrows,” That is, “and not on their faces” as stated by at-Tabaree. ‘Aa’ishah said, regarding the female in ihraam, “She may drape the garment on her face, if she wishes.” This was narrated by al-Bayhaqee in an authentic chain of narrators. There is clear evidence in ‘Aa’ishah’s giving the female pilgrim a choice in draping that in her opinion the face was not ‘awrah. Otherwise she would have made it obligatory on them as those who contradict it do. Because of their position, most of the extremist authors, with at-Tuwaijree in the forefront, hid this statement of Umm al-Mu’mineen, ‘Aa’ishah from their readers. The author of Faslul-khitaab [The Definitive Statement] deliberately deleted this portion of al-Bayhaqee’s narration in his book. This being only one of a number of similar disreputable acts which I have exposed in my book. The supportive evidence is that this authentic narration from her strengthens her hadeeth from the Prophet. This is among the facts that people are unaware of or they pretend ignorance of, either choice is bitter to swallow. As for Asmaa, it has been authentically reported from Qays ibn Abee Haazim that he saw her as a woman of white complexion with tatoos on her hands. (d) The narration of Ibn ‘Abbaas earlier mentioned, “She should pull the jilbaab (cloak) close to her face without putting it on her face.” His interpretation of the verse of adornment "except what appears from it" as referring to“the face and hands” was similar. There is also a similar narration from Ibn ‘Umar to the same effect. At this point, a bitter reality must be noted due to the lessons which may be gained from it, the knowledge which it contains and is service as a reminder of the wise saying: “The truth is not know by people, know the truth and you will know people.” At the same time that Shaykh at-Tuwaijree insists on rejecting the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah and its supporting evidences, among them Qaatadah’s mursal narration, he willingly accepts another inauthentic hadeeth from her with mursal support. In that hadeeth it is mentioned “…that she wore a niqaab (face veil)…” and that she was supposed to have described the Prophet’s wife Safiyyah and the Ansaar women as “… a jewess among jewesses…” which is considered by scholars to be a very erroneous statement (munkar jiddan). The Shaykh argues on page 181, “It has mursal supportive evidence,” and quotes one of the mursal hadeeths of ‘Ataa containing a known liar in its chain of narration. One should reflect on the great difference between this fabricated supportive evidence and the authentic supportive evidence of Qataadah further supported by other evidences, then ask, “Why did at-Tuwaijree accept the second hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah and not the first?” The obvious answer is that the accepted one contains reference to wearing the niqaab – even though it does not indicate obligation – while the rejected one denies it. Thus, in this regard, the Shaykh did not base his position on Islaamic legal principles, but on something similar to the Jewish principle: The ends justify the means. May Allaah help us. THis was taken from the following article (Niqab is not fard,) http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/women/albani_niqab.htm I'm not sure why this topic keeps coming up? ??? I have an email with 10 (maybe more links) arguing both sides of this issue, and maybe in the future we'll just refer people to that. |
| 05/31/03 at 09:53:43 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: question about hadith |
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| faisalsb |
| 06/01/03 at 00:35:00 |
| [slm] Well apart from what Sheikh Albani have mentioned in his article about the hadith the way he started his article is not appropriate e.g. "THE EXTREMISTS ......" (If that's really his own words) Following is the source of the hadith: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/032.sat.html#032.4092 Sunan Abu Dawud Book 32, Number 4092: Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: Asma, daughter of AbuBakr, entered upon the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) turned his attention from her. He said: O Asma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands. Can anyone enlighten me why this hadith is not part of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim ? Because usually all Sahih hadiths are common within all books of hadiths then why not this one? |
| 06/01/03 at 00:36:59 |
| faisalsb |
| Re: question about hadith |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 06/02/03 at 23:32:33 |
| AsSAlaamu Alaikum :) [quote]others call into question some in its chain.  [/quote] If the chain is not correct then this means it is not linked to the sahaba. Allah (swt) knows best. [quote]hadeeth saying that he  pointed to her face and hands, we cannot then suppose that he pointed to her eyes and think that this hadeeth was transmitted incorrectly.  Again, I'm sure you didn't mean it like it came off, but it is quite dangerous to nullify what has been passed down by our righteous predessors.  [/quote] Sister the eyes are part of the face :P When one points to the face, they cannot point to the whole face, but they point to a certain part of the face. Having said that I want to make it clear that I do not wear niqaab or anything. I am in no way trying to preach niqaab if anyone thinks that, I am just sharing information that I have found. I am trying to learn/understand myself of what is required. It is just that everytime I sincerely read both sides, where it says niqaab is required, seems to have a much stronger argument. When I was browsing an Islamic website a while back I came across my first article on niqaab saying how that some say its required. I was shocked as I was taught that it is not necessary to cover the face (and didnt know that there was a diff opinion) and the only people who had to cover their face were the ones who had an extra beautiful face. and I thought heh dont have to worry bout that :P I think this is just something that is hard for us to believe. Jazak Allahu Kair for the article although I am also not fond of the words being used such as extremest, considering that many (if not all) of the sahaba used to wear niqaab (there are many proofs for this) and ofcourse the wives of the prophet wore it. In addition there are many famous scholars who believe it is required. (for resource chek out the source I posted above) I think we all agree there is a difference of opinion on this topic so insh'Allah we will leave it to that. your sister ps since I am also learning if you have any more information then plz feel free to private message me with it.... and maybe the brother who started the post would also like that? |
| 06/03/03 at 01:26:50 |
| a_Silver_Rose |
| Re: question about hadith |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 06/02/03 at 23:58:27 |
| [slm] A few points: 1. Words like "extremist", "deviant", "liar", "ignorant", "fabricator", etc. are found very commonly in the writings of almost all the scholars of our history from Ibn Hajr to Imam Ghazali to Ibn Taimiyah to al-Albani (rahimahum Allah). It is important to note that their usage of these terms (which is objective and factual) is not like our usage (which is often subjective and emotional). 2. Bukhari + Muslim does not = all authentic ahadith in the world. There are *many* authentic ahadith that are not found in either of those two works, and this is the consensus of the scholars as far as I know. 3. It is interested to note that al-Albani (rahimahullah) - who was very strict in most of his stances - took the stance of niqaab not being a wajib. 4. It is important to note that al-Albani (rahimahullah) did declare that the niqaab was recommended, and his own wife and daughters both wore niqaab. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. |
| 06/03/03 at 00:10:20 |
| Abu_Hamza |
| Re: question about hadith |
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| siddiqui |
| 06/03/03 at 01:48:24 |
| [slm] I guess this post has gone far beyond its purpose and we are treading dangerous grounds now I would like to suggest that we lock the topic [wlm] |
| Re: question about hadith |
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| jannah |
| 06/03/03 at 02:19:59 |
| wlm, true bro... none of us are muhadditheen or faqihs.. best to find out about the hadith and specifically the topic of niqab from knowledgable sources inshaAllah. |
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