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How can I help...
theOriginal
06/02/03 at 11:12:23
[slm]

.....someone who says they reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally want to learn about Islam, but who is reeeeeeeeeeeally argumentative and stubborn, with whom my patience runs really thin, since I am, for the large part, unable to answer the questions adequately, due to my lack of understanding...

This person is Muslim, but admits to practicing only minimally.  The newest argument I received is as follows:

If Islam is the truth, then how come when people get educated, they become secular.  It is only the poor and the ignorant who have faith.

Of course, pointing out people who are neither poor, nor ignorant and who have faith was absolutely useless, since they are "exceptions" ...

He asks:  How come all of my friends are like me, and yet we have more than people who are really good muslims?  How come we are smarter, and how come we end up with better jobs?

He asks:  How come my friends are so happy if what they do is so wrong? (His theory is that he is the only unhappy one in the whole posse)

I gave him the e-mail address and number of an imaam, but he, so far, refuses to call him....

He's a good kid, just has some really bad company, and seems to be very sincere in his questions...

(Oh and he doesn't believe in reading material off the net, because he doesn't trust it...otherwise I would direct him here.)

Any help would be appreciated..  suggestions, answers to his qs, how to motivate him to turn to someone who has more knowledge, how to encourage him to attend lectures...ANYTHING.

Wasalaam.


Re: How can I help...
UmmWafi
06/02/03 at 11:56:47
[slm] Dear Sis JustOne

I aint even half smart but this is my sincere response to smart peeps like him :) Hope this helps :)

[quote]If Islam is the truth, then how come when people get educated, they become secular.  It is only the poor and the ignorant who have faith.[/quote]

Ask him how does he know that ? Facts ? Ask him what he meant by "get educated".  Tell him there is a vast difference between getting and education and learning anything.  Those who have PhD and yet is secular, well, have they truly learnt anything ?  If they cannot even get beyond a simple truth like the Qur'an is the word of Allah, then are they really smart ? Can all these secular intelligentsia prove the falsehood of the Qur'an ?  Remember, Isaac Newton was one of the smartest men but he believed in God and he had to put that belief at bay cos he can't prove it.  Doh

[quote]He asks:  How come all of my friends are like me, and yet we have more than people who are really good muslims?  How come we are smarter, and how come we end up with better jobs?[/quote]

Ahhh but our time on earth is limited and our final destination is not here. Ask him how does he know he and his cohorts are smarter ? Ask him what constitutes a good job.  Some people feel that a plain job that allows time to reflect their spirituality is ten times better than being a well paid lawyer.

[quote]He asks:  How come my friends are so happy if what they do is so wrong? (His theory is that he is the only unhappy one in the whole posse)[/quote]

Happy doing what ? If the answer is clubbing and partying, then tell him that if they are so very happy they would be satisfied with themselves and not always needing others to be happy.  Hey..I am happy. I am a Muslim. Duh.

Well..my best advice is get him to engage in an intellectual discussion with a patient and understanding,  practising and knowledgeable  Muslim.

I know some of my answers are whacked but..its 12am here...

Wassalam.
Re: How can I help...
se7en
06/03/03 at 00:31:18
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,

There are different types of happiness.. the baheemi or cattle-like part of our nafs attains happiness by eating, drinking, and copulating, occupying it's time with just these things, just like cattle.. the sabawiy or predator-like part of our nafs attains happiness the same way predators do.. by violence, greed, power over others.. the shaytaani or devil-like part of our nafs attains happiness by deception, sowing discord between people, spreading evil and harm.. and the higher, malaiki or angel-like part of our nafs achieves happiness and pleasure in righteous action, worship, devotion, remembrance and knowledge of God.

So.. the human being has the capacity to be 'happy' and achieve satisfaction in a number of diffferent ways.. you can achieve happiness and satisfaction in the same way a cow, hyena, or devil might.. or you can achieve a deeper, more intense, and more meaningful happiness by nourishing your ma'laiki nafs and keeping the lower, carnal parts of the self controlled and disciplined.

Perhaps the brother should turn inward and spend some time in introspection and reflection and consider, why is it he is unhappy?  what is missing from his life?


Some quotes to consider:


Each faculty of ours delights in that for which it was created: lust delights in accomplishing desire, anger in taking vengeance, the eye in seeing beautiful objects, and the ear in hearing harmonious sounds.  The highest function of the soul is the perception of truth.

--- al Ghazali



To love Allah, to know Him intimately, to remember Him constantly, to find peace and rest in Him, to make Him alone the [ultimate] object of love, fear, hope and trust; to base one's act on His control of His servant's cares, aspirations and will - such is the world's Heaven, and such is a blessing with which no other blessing can compare. It is by this that the hearts of those who love Allah are gladdened and that the gnostics find life. As their hearts are gladdened by Allah, so others are gladdened by them. For whoever finds his source of gladness in Allah, gladdens all hearts; whoever does not, finds nothing in this world but restlessness.

-- Ibn al-Qayyim, in the Invocation of God



Truly in the heart there is a void that can not be removed except with the company of Allah.  And in it there is a sadness that can not be removed except with the happiness of knowing Allah and being true to Him.  And in it there is an emptiness that can not be filled except with love for Him and by turning to Him and always remembering Him.  And if a person were given all of the world and what is in it, it would not fill this emptiness.  

--- Ibn al-Qayyim al Jawziyya  



w'Allahu a'lam.

wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah
07/16/03 at 22:19:32
se7en
Re: How can I help...
Abu_Hamza
06/03/03 at 00:36:44
[slm]

masha Allah se7en!  a preview of this year's retreat?! :)
Re: How can I help...
Nabilaxxx
06/03/03 at 04:46:03
Re: How can I help...
paula
06/03/03 at 19:37:10
[slm]
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:-* Masha' Allah sister Se7en .... Very beautifully put ... Subhan Allah

Sisters UmmWafi & lady_murasaki_sa I really liked your points as well, I always do ...... Masha' Allah

My so humanistic ways.. while reading your post sister Just One (btw ;) : I thought you had taken a retreat from the board.... smile.. so glad it was short lived ! ) ... my first thought too was that rather than a scholar @ this point what he may need more is submission , inner reflection, & silence.  A couple of reasons. It seems obvious he is locked in his realm of reality @ this moment, so was thinking how may the best way to break that.  To take a break from "thinking" & an effort in submission to Allah(swt) himself. Secondly, all to often as Lady_murasak_sa stated.  The cycle feeds itself.  Those that even persue understanding Islam with the intellect without incorporating submission efforts to Allah(swt) directly seem to fall into the same kinds of frustration.  However, this is just a humanistic contemplation.... Allahu Alam

I believe Sister Se7en stated it best:
((okay is there ever a 'best'  ;) be careful not to take me too literal
... but her "to the point" statement expressed it so clear (smile)  ))
[quote]Perhaps the brother should turn inward and spend some time in introspection and reflection [/quote]  

Jazak Allahu Khairan Sister Just One for your attempts to help & support our Muslim sibling....... Masha' Allah.  May Allah(swt) guide him in the right direction & hold him every so close...... Allahu Alam..... Ameen
[wlm] [/color][/font][/size]
06/03/03 at 20:21:34
paula
Re: How can I help...
muahmed
06/03/03 at 20:10:27
[slm] ;-)

Unfortunately it is true that many people who get higher education become secular. This is because they all make the same mistake. A mistake ghazali pointed out in the 12th century in his book Error of the philoshophers. We need another Ghazali!

Most people are awed and impressed by the intellectual achievements of science and philoshophy. They are so awed that they start accepting things from people with Phds and a string of distinctions behind their name without questioning them, or questioning them only within the same bounds the view was derived in. Views of famous mathematicians and physicists about life, the meaning of life, and religion start affecting them. The make the false assumption that an expert, nobel laureate in math or physics also knows the spiritual truths or knows that spirituality is fake.

The whole process starts with an ego boost that the study of science gives. It makes one think that man can decipher any truth from logical rational deductions based on empirical observations. After a few years when one is throughly convinced of the "infallibility of the human spirit" and the belief that humanity can conquer all as humans are a super intellectual race the second stage starts. In the second stage one starts studying works of great intellectuals. Intellectuals only in this dunya and temporary existance. Since one is already convinced that intellectual deduction is the highest and purest truth and one is also awed by the super-smart people it is only natural to start believing completely all secular beliefs that many philoshophers propagate and are also propagated in autobiographies and personal accounts of famous scientists.

The only way out of this is to give Islamic spiritualism a try. A really smart philoshopher can give logical arguments and prove that love does not exist. Humans are not moved by love but by impulses that enable them to survive or gain something. However such a belief is not common as even the most secular person beleives in love. Why? because they have love and have been loved.


If God could be proven logically by the worthless, feeble intellect (by comparison) of a human, then he won't really be god, as the idea of God itself implies that God is so superior and so far above the reach of our intellect.

Religion is not limited to this world and hence can not be judged by knowledge acquired by empirical experiences. To base religion totally on reason is to start off with the wrong basis.

Axiom:
The human intellect can not be perfectly just. We are all biased (for example towards our well being rather than being just absolutely.)

Implication of the axiom:
If the shariat made perfect and complete sense, that one could claim he understood the wisdom behind everything in it, then the shariat would not be perfect but rather imperfect. As it made complete sense and was completely justified according to some human mind which is imperfect and unjust in the absolute sense, shariah would not be just in the absolute sense.

Hence the fact that we do not understand the reasoning and wisdom behind every injunction of Islam, and behind every will of Allah and His messenger is a good sign, which logically allows the possibility that our deen is perfect. If it was not so it would be easy to prove its imperfection.


I am too tired to read the crap I wrote, so I will leave to others to correct my mistakes. My mind doesn't always think straight when I am this sleepy and tired.
Re: How can I help...
AbdulJalil
06/03/03 at 20:18:35
Assalamu Alaikum


Communism is a secular ideology, look how many millions of people died because of it.


He might be associating Islam, and religion in general, with backwardness, because maybe he is not  aware of the great Islamic civilization of the past.


Maybe you can make him read these books, and websites. I am pretty sure it will change his mind, Inshallah:




First the books:


The Arabian Connection - A Conspiracy Against Humanity


http://www.onlineislamicstore.com/b3734.html



The Islamic Civilization (Dr. Mustafa Siba'I)


http://store.yahoo.com/talkislam/b7249.html



Islamic Technology: An Illustrated History


http://store.yahoo.com/talkislam/b5834.html






Now the websites:


Setting the Record Straight: The Miracle of Islamic Science

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/sciencehistory.htm


QUOTATIONS FROM FAMOUS HISTORIANS OF SCIENCE


http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/Introl1.html




QUOTATIONS ON ISLAMIC CIVILIZATION


http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/quote2.html


QUOTATIONS ON MOORISH (ISLAMIC) CIVILIZATION


http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/quote3.html




The website has also e-books(not free), and other links :


http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/



------------------------------------------------------------------------




If it has to be just one book, choose the first one, same things for the websites.





06/03/03 at 20:23:48
AbdulJalil
Re: How can I help...
Nomi
06/03/03 at 20:21:13
[slm] all

i know i may well be wrong in thinking on these lines but I wish to see the really-practicing Muslims at the top too ofcourse living a simple/plain life is a blessing too but i just wish that all these practicing ppl should be at the top, although there are many that i know of, but need more.... need majority

ameen
Re: How can I help...
theOriginal
06/04/03 at 04:14:24
[slm]

Jazak Allah Khair for your replies...I bombarded him with UmmWafi's q's until I saw sr. se7en's post, which I emailed to him...he said that it made a lot of sense...insha Allah it had a positive effect.

Okay now I have another really weird question...but there used to be a brother on this board by the name of Abu Khaled, who wrote a really long response about (I'm paraphrasing) why science sucks to somebody who said it was (paraphrased again) really cool.  Unfortunately I can't find it, because I am inept when it comes to searching on this board....so please please someone help me...

Bro AbdulJalil...thank you for the titles...I'll try to find a way to give them to him without appearing preachy.

simply sister....shhhh...I couldn't stay away :P

Wasalaam..and JazakAllah Khair again.
Re: How can I help...
Nabila
06/04/03 at 09:02:17
[slm]

Someone has a problem with those bald, bespectacled, inoffensive lil scientists?  :-/

ma asalaamah and take care
Re: How can I help...
se7en
06/04/03 at 10:14:58


as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,

[quote]Okay now I have another really weird question...but there used to be a brother on this board by the name of Abu Khaled, who wrote a really long response about (I'm paraphrasing) why science sucks to somebody who said it was (paraphrased again) really cool.  Unfortunately I can't find it, because I am inept when it comes to searching on this board....so please please someone help me... [/quote]

yeahh.. I dig that thread even though I don't understand most of it :)

you can check it out here:

http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=madrasa&action=display&num=6805

wasalaamu alaykum :-)
Re: How can I help...
theOriginal
06/04/03 at 10:25:09
[slm]

Thank you soooo much....

That post is the reason I joined this board.

Anyone know what happened to the brother?  Last time I chatted with him was like (ummmm) 5 months ago.  

InshaAllah he is well.

Wasalaam.


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