A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Pakistan Province Votes To Enforce Shariah |
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| A_Stranger |
| 06/05/03 at 15:44:04 |
| [size=3]Pakistan Province Votes to Enforce Islamic Law[/size] (Islamweb) PESHAWAR, Pakistan -- The parliament of a Pakistani province bordering Afghanistan passed a bill yesterday to implement Shariah, or Islamic law, and its chief minister said those who failed to observe it were not welcome there. The bill was approved by the assembly of North West Frontier Province (NWFP), which became the only Pakistani province to take such a step. The assembly is dominated by the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA), a six-party Islamic alliance. “From today, Shariah law will be implemented in the province and there will be no place in the province for those who refuse to follow it,” Akram Durrani, the province’s chief minister, said. Under Shariah law, judgments are reached based on Islamic teachings and punishments. Provincial Law Minister Zafar Azam said the provincial government would introduce a new bill today to set up a Hisba (or accountability) Department to promote religious observance. On Saturday, the provincial government passed a directive ordering civil servants to pray five times a day. The order follows curbs on the sale of indecent music and videos and destruction of posters featuring women. The MMA has also banned music on public transport, medical examinations of women by male doctors, male coaches for women athletes and male journalists from covering women’s sports. The central government can challenge any legislation proposed by a provincial assembly if it conflicts with federal law, but how vigorously will Musharraf fight for the secular values that he appeared to proclaim 20 months ago? Now he is locked in a dispute over the extent of his powers with the national parliament. Several parties want him to give up his post as head of the army. He is resisting. The religious parties have enough power in the parliament to give Musharraf victory if they wished, but a favour like that is bound to have a price. The NWFP has always been beyond the reach of central government. The British failed to subdue it and left it as a political no-man's land, a buffer between the Raj and the uncertainties of Afghanistan. In the NWFP, Musharraf's support of the US was taken as betrayal, and nothing has altered the conviction that the Afghan war was a war against Islam. On the ground, in the NWFP and in southern Afghanistan, armed confrontations continue between Pashtun fighters on both sides of the border and US-led forces. |
| Re: Pakistan Province Votes To Enforce Shariah |
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| panjul |
| 06/06/03 at 01:20:01 |
| [slm] Shariah law? how scary for the women. How will they fare under more male control? A lady in our town was killed by her husband. He blamed her for being unfaithful, an accusation which he never leveld at her while she was alive. So the judge goes, ok, ur free. where's the justice in that? And that's shariah to them, by the way. but now, they just voted to put a *label* on it. And that's just one story. |
| Re: Pakistan Province Votes To Enforce Shariah |
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| A_Stranger |
| 06/06/03 at 07:32:32 |
| what the... sabr sabr...ur AGAINST enforcing the Shariah law?! khoor, can you please explain what you mean? Jazaakillaah khair. |
| 06/06/03 at 07:33:09 |
| A_Stranger |
| Re: Pakistan Province Votes To Enforce Shariah |
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| mr-bean |
| 06/06/03 at 12:17:39 |
| [slm] muslims are not ready for shariah law, because many of the people charged with implementing it are nutters.....witness afghanistan....a girl could be beaten for having squeaky sandals and a guy could be put in the slammer if his beard wasn't long enough.... there once was a time when muslims were sophisticated, understand the naunced meanings of the quran, and understood that islam is diverse, that many opinions are possible.... that time is gone. Now anybody who knows a bit is called knowledgable.. Anybody who has memorized the quran is a scholar. And anybody who knows arabic (and many huffaz do not) is really tipping the scales. Untill muslims can understand islam in a very sophisticated way, understanding and acknowledging the many variant interpretations, sharia law will largely be a disaster....and will only lead to the cutting of hands and the gradual withdrawal of people from islam.... Not conviced? Look at Iran. There is a version of corrupt sharia law there and the young are itching to tear it down. Do you have any idea how many athiest iranians there are in iran? Many, many, many -- i would say they compose 30-40% of the educational establishment there. (I know a bit about this). Do you know what the most frequented websites are? Surprise -- they are sex sites.. So what does shariah law do -- if applied very badly? It creates people who want to abolish islam. [slm] |
| Re: Pakistan Province Votes To Enforce Shariah |
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| jaihoon |
| 06/06/03 at 15:38:56 |
| [quote author=mr-bean link=board=ummah;num=1054838645;start=0#3 date=06/06/03 at 12:17:39] [slm] there once was a time when muslims were sophisticated, understand the naunced meanings of the quran, and understood that islam is diverse, that many opinions are possible.... .... Not conviced? Look at Iran. There is a version of corrupt sharia law there and the young are itching to tear it down. [slm][/quote] Well said mr-bean. This is one point which even Muslim have lost sight of. |
| Re: Pakistan Province Votes To Enforce Shariah |
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| superFOB |
| 06/06/03 at 15:41:15 |
| [slm] Mashallah nice opinions brothers/sisters. But it is such a sensitive topic that its best to keep silent. |
| Re: Pakistan Province Votes To Enforce Shariah |
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| Nomi |
| 06/06/03 at 17:29:34 |
| [slm] [quote] Well said mr-bean. This is one point which even Muslim have lost sight of. [/quote] So its purely our fault, mistake of us muslims and not the shariah a'maalukum ummaalukum infact its us who dont deserve that, and about cutting of hands etc... well i recall that Hazrat Omer [ra] didn't sentence a thief for that because He [ra] said that first poverty will be eliminated and then this punishment shall be given to ppl if they'll still commit that sin, so yes, Shariah is to be implemented with hikmah a'maalukum ummaalukum [slm] Asim Zafar |
| Re: Pakistan Province Votes To Enforce Shariah |
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| Tesseract |
| 06/06/03 at 23:30:12 |
| Assalamu 'alaikum, [quote]Shariah law? how scary for the women[/quote] I don't really get it ??? Do u mean to say that if women are scared, Shari'ah law should not be implemented? Please clarify. Wassalam. |
| Re: Pakistan Province Votes To Enforce Shariah |
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| muahmed |
| 06/07/03 at 02:57:26 |
| [slm] ;-) [quote author=mr-bean link=board=ummah;num=1054838645;start=0#3 date=06/06/03 at 12:17:39] muslims are not ready for shariah law, because many of the people charged with implementing it are nutters.....witness afghanistan....a girl could be beaten for having squeaky sandals and a guy could be put in the slammer if his beard wasn't long enough.... [/quote] The way sharia was implemented in afghanistan is hardly a logical reason to denounce the application of sharia elsewhere. I mean atleast give an argument that is sensible! This is like saying since Mr. X couldn't do a good job, no one should try to do that job again. May Allah enable the brothers involved to do a much better job than was done in Afghanistan. After Afghanistan there is a GREATER need to show the world a GOOD example of implementing the sharia. [quote author=mr-bean link=board=ummah;num=1054838645;start=0#3 date=06/06/03 at 12:17:39] there once was a time when muslims were sophisticated, understand the naunced meanings of the quran, and understood that islam is diverse, that many opinions are possible.... that time is gone. Now anybody who knows a bit is called knowledgable.. Anybody who has memorized the quran is a scholar. And anybody who knows arabic (and many huffaz do not) is really tipping the scales. [/quote] If you have not had the fortune of meeting a good scholar of Islam, that does not mean they dont exist. I am deeply offended by your complete disrespect of the scholars of the current age. I have never met a Hafiz that claimed to be a scholar and I have alhamdullilah met many huffaz. We still have present amongst us the great works of scholars of the past (like Imam Shamsuddin Qurtubi's tafsir) who knew how to interpret the Quran. We have numerous tafsirs of the Quran from all times by the greatest scholars of those ages. If the people before us who implemented the sharia knew how to interpret the Quran then we do have those interpretations and they are studied by present scholars. [quote author=mr-bean link=board=ummah;num=1054838645;start=0#3 date=06/06/03 at 12:17:39] Untill muslims can understand islam in a very sophisticated way, understanding and acknowledging the many variant interpretations, sharia law will largely be a disaster....and will only lead to the cutting of hands and the gradual withdrawal of people from islam.... [/quote] The sharia law was not a disaster in the ottoman empire. We have a very recent example from it. I know the ottomans did some wrong things and in the end the empire collapsed due to many reasons. But they ruled according to the sharia and they were very successful. Under their rule people prospered. They used hanafi fiqh as the official law. You can find books that describe the life of Muslims under ottomon rule when the empire was strong. The ottomon empire is a recent example which is a proof that the sharia law can be successfully applied. [quote author=mr-bean link=board=ummah;num=1054838645;start=0#3 date=06/06/03 at 12:17:39] Not conviced? Look at Iran. There is a version of corrupt sharia law there and the young are itching to tear it down. Do you have any idea how many athiest iranians there are in iran? Many, many, many -- i would say they compose 30-40% of the educational establishment there. (I know a bit about this). Do you know what the most frequented websites are? Surprise -- they are sex sites.. [/quote] I have many friends who grew up in Iran. You are exaggerating the situation there just like the media here. To claim that 30-40% of the iranians are athiests is so funny that I am not even going to answer that baseless assertion. Please find some Iranis and talk to them who have been in Iran recently! A lot of the students in Iran support their president Khatami. Khatami does NOT want sharia to end! He is against the power structure of the government. He only has disagreements as to how the judicial and government bodies operate in Iran, not to the fact that sharia should be implemented. His followers including students are largely not against sharia but the way things are run in Iran. [quote author=mr-bean link=board=ummah;num=1054838645;start=0#3 date=06/06/03 at 12:17:39] So what does shariah law do -- if applied very badly? It creates people who want to abolish islam. [/quote] You have yourself answered your own criticism. You say only if applied "very badly" can it have negative affects. Let me ask you this: Can ANYTHING, any law, that is applied very badly, have good effects? Ofcoures NOT!! Same is the case with ISlamic law. Every law requires that it be applied without bias, and as it dictates it should be applied. The application of the sharia is a topic best left to scholars who have studied it all their life and are familiar with Islamic rulings. I can have personal whims and biases to its application but who am I? A nobody when it comes to fiqh. It is the belief of Muslims, that true Islamic teaching will not be removed from this world till the judgement day. Some people will be true Muslims and some scholars (even if they are a minority) will be on the right path. Let us hope enough of such good people are amongst those applying sharia in NWFP in Pakistan so that it becomes an example Muslims can be proud of. |
| Re: Pakistan Province Votes To Enforce Shariah |
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| faisalsb |
| 06/07/03 at 05:22:51 |
| [slm] Well while agreeing with brother Mohammad Ahmed I'll like to add something that the way of implementation of sharia in Pakistan is different than Afghanistan since it is being done in democratic way. The sharia law is passed by the assembly with absolute majority including opposition, minority and women members. If women are scared of sharia law then they wouldn't have voted in favour of the law. So I think the opinion that people are not ready for sharia law is not very strong since if that were the case then people wouldn't have voted for the people who are called fundamentalists and terrorists in language of western media. Apart from all negative propoganda on national and international level people put their confidence in MMA which shows how eager and desperate people are to see rightous people in government. It was also propogated that those people don't have capability more than managing mosques and collecting donations on name of different Islamic issues. But so far the progress of MMA government has proved it wrong. Since the education upto grade 10 is declared free and compulsary to all girls and boys in the province. So I think there is a lot of hope and light at end of the tunnel .... Inshallah Turkey is another example what really people want, apart from opposition of secular machinery and international pressure Islamist won the elections there. In Algeria secular and Kufr govenments have been trying their best to silent the voice of people but I think we will hear the news soon .... Inshallah So I think what people want would be clear if they are given their right to say what they want exactly instead of using non democratic and brutal tactics against them. At last but not least implementation of sharia is certainly going to be a disaster but not for muslims instead for kufr and secular governments and we can see signs of furry and anxiety clearly in those elements ..... but truth will prevail and falsehood will vanish ....... Inshallah |
| 06/07/03 at 05:59:57 |
| faisalsb |
| Re: Pakistan Province Votes To Enforce Shariah |
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| Nomi |
| 06/07/03 at 16:38:15 |
| [slm] [center][size=3]Bravo bro Muhammad Ahmed[/size][/centar] it'll be a success inshaAllah Lets pray for it, all of us [slm] Asim Zafar |
| Re: Pakistan Province Votes To Enforce Shariah |
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| BroHanif |
| 06/07/03 at 18:47:20 |
| Got this from an earlier alert. Can Islam be a saviour in Iraq or is a new breed of thinking required to replace the chants of the ruling people who want an Islamic Law(Sharia) to be established ?. An American Agenda for Iraq Democracy Without Islam Iffat Idris Malik, Dawn (centrist), Karachi, Pakistan, May 1, 2003 Shiite religious leader Mohammed al-Fartussi has tried to ban pornographic theaters like this one on Al-Saadun Street in Baghdad (Photo: Ahmad Al-Rubaye/AFP). The latest hiccup in American plans to control and exploit Iraq is the emergence of strong Islamist (Shiite) forces within the country. These religio-political forces are vehemently opposed to both the “secular” [Ahmad] Chalabi-led administration that Washington is trying to foist on them and a continued U.S. presence in Iraq. Their chants are “No to America!” and “Yes to an Islamic state!” It is not so much the extremism of these views that alarms America as the fact that they are being echoed by the Iraqi people. A desire to be rid of America pervades Iraqi society; close behind it is the desire to bring the clerics into government. The reasons for this are obvious: a deeply conservative society, pent-up religious passions, a political vacuum (both the result of suppression under Saddam Hussein), and the humiliation of occupation. For now, Islam is the only avenue through which Iraqis can express their feelings and sentiments. The end result is equally obvious: If elections are held tomorrow, they will bring Islamists into power. The Bush administration is well aware of the Islamist threat. If it comes to fruition, all America’s strategic planning for the region will come to naught. Instead of reaping the harvest of Iraqi oil and spreading Western values among Iraq’s neighbors, Washington will have to deal with a hostile regime in Baghdad that could lead others up the Islamist path. The Iranian Islamic revolution of 1979 was non-Arab and too extreme to inspire the Arab world. An Iraqi Islamic revolution in the post-9/11 world would be an infinitely more attractive role model. How to deal with this threat? Why, with threats of one’s own! First came the warnings to Iran not to interfere in Iraq’s internal affairs. These warnings are a futile attempt to curb Islamist sentiment—futile because post-Saddam Iraq’s Islamist fervor is not imported from Iran. It has totally indigenous roots. (They also reveal American frustration in Iraq: Unable to lash out at the clerics or the Iraqi public, Washington is venting that frustration on Iran.) Then comes U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld’s direct warning to the Iraqi people, saying, “If you’re suggesting, how would we feel about an Iranian-type government with a few clerics running everything in the country, the answer is: That isn’t going to happen.” The significance of Rumsfeld’s warning is immense. What it does, in effect, is to deny the Iraqi people the very freedom and democracy that George Bush had promised them before the war. The message to the Iraqis is simple: “You can choose who rules over you, but only if your choice is pro-American and secular. You cannot choose a government that is anti-American and Islamist.” This is democracy with very long strings attached. On a deeper, more philosophical level, Rumsfeld is denying the possibility that democracy and Islam can co-exist. Or rather, he is denying the value of democracy that brings in Islam. Rumsfeld is not the first Western leader to make this kind of democratic value judgment. In the Cold War era, the enemy was communism. Undemocratic leaders were tolerated, even welcomed, so long as they kept the communists at bay. In the post-Cold War years, particularly after 9/11, the enemy is Islam: All manner of despotic leaders and governments can be—indeed should be—supported if they keep the Islamists out of power. There is no shortage of examples to illustrate this phenomenon. Start with Algeria. After years of military rule, the first democratic elections in the country’s history were held in 1991. The initial two rounds pointed to a majority for the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) in the National Assembly. The military junta promptly canceled the final round of voting, banned the FIS, and launched a campaign of brutal suppression. Its unquestionably undemocratic conduct was applauded by George Bush Sr. and, among others, the French. Move east to Egypt. Hosni Mubarak succeeded Anwar Sadat in power more than two decades ago. He has “won” every election since then. This is a remarkable record for a democratic country but not so remarkable for a country that crushes the political opposition—predominantly Islamist—with ruthless use of state instruments of suppression. Yet Mubarak’s government is the second-largest recipient of U.S. aid in the world (the largest being Israel, a country that unabashedly takes state suppression to new heights). Move further east to Saudi Arabia. There have never been democratic elections—or even sham elections—in the desert kingdom. The House of Saud rules without question or apology. There is opposition to it within Saudi Arabia—Osama bin Laden can be considered the extreme tip of that opposition. As in Egypt, it is strongly Islamist in character. Far from encouraging these pro-democracy forces, Washington puts pressure on the Saudi authorities to take even stronger action against them. There are no calls for Saudi democracy coming out of Capitol Hill or number 10 Downing Street. And finally look at Iran. For years Iran suffered from the folly and brutality of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi. America’s relationship with him was so cozy it had its own people in the Imperial Palace to advise the shah. When a populist revolution led by the ayatollahs swept the shah off the throne, America responded with condemnation and sanctions. Islamic rule in Iran has not been a model of democracy: There have been abuses of power and violations of human rights. But over the past decade Iran has moderated its policies and even established a tradition of democratic elections. Iranian democracy, though still imperfect, is way ahead of that of its Arab neighbors. Yet it is Iran, not Saudi Arabia or Egypt or Jordan, that faces the wrath of George Bush. Now America looks set to make the same democratic “modification” in Iraq. If free elections will bring the clerics into power, then free elections can be dispensed with. The Americans, of course, will not be so blatant in implementing this agenda. They will delay elections for as long as possible, citing security and stability as two overriding needs. They will tamper with the electoral process, seeking—like many dictators in other countries—a way to present the facade of democracy while maintaining the reality of absolute control. (Pakistani history is replete with such examples, the presidential referendum being the latest.) “Representative democracy” is the new catchphrase being bandied around for Iraq—a euphemism for “sham democracy.” The irony is that every time governments attempt to crush popular Islamist sentiment, they actually end up strengthening and “fundamentalizing” it. Algeria is the perfect case in point. Denied the ballot box route to power, the moderate FIS became both extremist and (in reaction to state violence) militant. The tourist massacre in Egypt in the 1990s by Gamaa al-Islamiya came after the authorities stamped down on the more moderate Muslim Brotherhood. Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda might not have emerged if there were an option for political opposition in Saudi Arabia. How will Iraqis react if the United States denies them the right to choose a government of their own if it suspects such a government is likely to be predominantly clerical? There is every indication that they, too, will resort to violence—witness the passion on display in Karbala last week. And since in Iraq it would be a foreign authority trying to stamp out Islamist politics, the Iraqi Islamists, having the added potency of nationalism, would fight back—unlike in other Muslim countries. The result would be more fighting, more humanitarian suffering, and—at the end of the day—a more extremist Islamic government in power in Baghdad. Subverting or denying democracy is not the way to curb populist Islam. Like every other political ideology—socialism, communism, free-market capitalism, and neoconservatism—Islam as a political code has to be given the chance to prove or discredit itself. The yardstick for governmental success is universal: security, equity, justice, and development. Islam in power will either deliver security, justice, and development—in which case no one should have a problem with it—or it will be voted out by a disillusioned electorate. The argument that, once in power, Islamists seal the ballot boxes (refuse to hold elections or leave power) has no basis in fact or logic. Islamic Iran has held presidential elections and elections to the Majlis [Parliament] every four to five years without fail. How can it be right to hold back democracy today because of the unproven fear that, once in power, Islamists would do so tomorrow? Denying Islamists the right to contest elections both increases the allure of their ideology and drives them underground and toward extremism. Islam that comes in through the ballot box is less dangerous and more liable to be moderated than Islam that comes in through violence and coercion. The United States has already failed to deliver on many of its prewar promises in Iraq. It should not add democracy to the list. |
| NS |
| Re: Pakistan Province Votes To Enforce Shariah |
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| BroHanif |
| 06/07/03 at 18:57:19 |
| Salaams, Sharia only fails when we allow it to fail. If anything all the Muslims of the world should help our brothers/sisters in the North West province with any resources they need in order to establish and propogate Sharia Law. I find the attitude of some Muslims really strange they are happy to live in Kufrastan but the minute some authority try to establish Sharia Law they are seen as perhaps rougue. Lets not become watches from the sidelines and point out their faults but rather help them. Brother Nomi, if there is any way we can help our brothers/sisters apart from Dua in the North West province then let us know. May Allah make them successful. Ameen. Hanif |
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| Nomi |
| 06/07/03 at 19:04:42 |
| [wlm] and [slm] [quote] Brother Nomi, if there is any way we can help our brothers/sisters apart from Dua in the North West province then let us know. [/quote] Well there can be so many things and infact i was myself thinking on these lines but what i was thinking of needs more commitment e.g. establishing a school that is as high as any other school in Pakistan when it comes to infrastructure, knowledge-base (library), Instructors etc We can even start a whole new thread on this topic ?! Asim Zafar |
| 06/07/03 at 19:08:47 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Pakistan Province Votes To Enforce Shariah |
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| Nabila |
| 06/07/03 at 19:39:45 |
| [slm] I was listening to an interview by Brother Yusuf Islam, and he was being quizzed about his support for Sharia law. He gave a surprisingly simple answer, one I never thought of before. He said, ''You only have to worry about Sharia Law if you yourself are a criminal.'' Im all for Sharia Law, but people fail to realise that Sharia is flexible, it allows for freedom of thought, expression and religion, and instead interpret it as a way to make sure the country becomes a version of 6th century Arabia. I'm more concerned about the 'cleanliness' of the parliament that passed this law. Not meaning to offend anyone here, but pakistani parliaments are not exactly known for their incorruptibility. Hell, make that most parliaments. I guess its difficult for the people in the US to see where Mr Bean is coming from, but I recognised his view point about when people of little knowledge are referred to as Sheikhs, etc. I immediatly thought of Abu Hamza, or Sheikh Faisal here in london. I didnt see it as an insult of scholars as a whole, but rather a point that these are the type of people that get more media exposure in an age where spin is everything. Um - as for the sex sites, thats probably a world wide truth, and not just applicable to Iran ::) This is what I have a problem with: Provincial Law Minister Zafar Azam said the provincial government would introduce a new bill today to set up a Hisba (or accountability) Department to promote religious observance. So we get some more Muttawas to force people into worship - fantastic! Ive seen this in Saudi. The muttawas force everyone to pray - at one point way back they used to knock on house doors to tell people to pray! With this pressure, to look alike dress alike, supression of anything that encouraged intelligent debate, it gave Saudi kids something to really rebel against, especially with the influx of the 'desireable' lifestyle of the West being promoted on satellite 24/7. As a result, most of the people I went to school with had no interest in Salaah, hijab, modesty or even about Khulwah relationships; they prayed because they were made to by the religious studies teacher, thats all. They bragged about how at home they splashed water around in the bathroom to pretend they had done wudu and wud pretend to pray when their parents were around. Great. Wonderful. Many things in Islam are about self regulation. I pray because I want to, if I dont Allaah will deal with me, its no ones business to poke into my life and tell me how to live it! I dont recall the Prophet or Umar or anyone sending spies into the community to find out how religious everyone is, what is the length of their beard, how much do they cover? I agree completely with Brother Nomi -- it must be implemented with Hikmah - something which is lost because people are almost always trying to promote their cultural version of Islam : (woman shot dead for divorcing her husband, woman gang raped for walking with a twelve year old boy) Instead of seeing as Sharia Law as something that has remained ossified for centuries, and must remain so, hikmah must be used to do things for the peoples good, and not for the good of ones own pocket as is often the case :/ Not wanting to pick a fight here:), but Id genuinely like to know how many woman are actually in Parliament? ma asalaamah and take care |
| Not Re: Pakistan Province Votes To Enforce Shariah |
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| faisalsb |
| 06/08/03 at 03:39:24 |
| [quote]I'm more concerned about the 'cleanliness' of the parliament that passed this law. Not meaning to offend anyone here, but pakistani parliaments are not exactly known for their incorruptibility. Hell, make that most parliaments. [/quote] Well that's true that most of the political parties in Pakistan have been involved in corruption but it's also a fact that all the parties in MMA has distinguish character when we talk about corruption. It's on the record that non of their members have ever been found involved in any kind of corruption during whole history of Pakistan. Accountibility boards which have been formed during diffirent governments have been witness to it. [quote]Provincial Law Minister Zafar Azam said the provincial government would introduce a new bill today to set up a Hisba (or accountability) Department to promote religious observance. So we get some more Muttawas to force people into worship - fantastic! Ive seen this in Saudi. The muttawas force everyone to pray - at one point way back they used to knock on house doors to tell people to pray! With this pressure, to look alike dress alike, supression of anything that encouraged intelligent debate, it gave Saudi kids something to really rebel against, especially with the influx of the 'desireable' lifestyle of the West being promoted on satellite 24/7. [/quote] Well I think there is a hadith that parents must have asked their children to pray and when they reach to the age of puberty they are allowed even to hit them if they don't pray. But yes I think we can implement it in wiser way but no body should have doubt that it must be implemented either one way or another. [quote]Many things in Islam are about self regulation. I pray because I want to, if I dont Allaah will deal with me, its no ones business to poke into my life and tell me how to live it! I dont recall the Prophet or Umar or anyone sending spies into the community to find out how religious everyone is, what is the length of their beard, how much do they cover? [/quote] Well it's well known truth that Umar (rau) used to go around streets of Madina at night so nobody should be able to recognise him. That's way he used to get first hand knowledge about the people who he was governing. One of those nights he heard conversation between milkwoman and her daughter when milkwoman asked her daughter to mix water with milk but she refused since khalif Umar (rau) had forbidden it. Following mentioned hadiths show how important it is for men to pray in congregation. What about the people who don't pray at all ? Sahih Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 11, Number 617: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is I was about to order for collecting fire-wood (fuel) and then order Someone to pronounce the Adhan for the prayer and then order someone to lead the prayer then I would go from behind and burn the houses of men who did not present themselves for the (compulsory congregational) prayer. By Him, in Whose Hands my soul is, if anyone of them had known that he would get a bone covered with good meat or two (small) pieces of meat present in between two ribs, he would have turned up for the 'Isha' prayer.' Volume 1, Book 11, Number 626: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to c awl." The Prophet added, "Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses." [quote]Not wanting to pick a fight here, but Id genuinely like to know how many woman are actually in Parliament? [/quote] 33% quota is fixed for women in all assemblies of Pakistan including four provincial and one national assembly. Apart from that fixed quota some women has won elections on general seats also so we can say roughly 40% of current assembly members consist of women. |
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| Nabila |
| 06/08/03 at 06:32:49 |
| [slm] If the parliament really is as transparent as you say, then that is definatly a very good thing. :) However, I still disagree with you about the mutawa issue: Ive seen what they can do to countries and they do more harm than good. Well I think there is a hadith that parents must have asked their children to pray and when they reach to the age of puberty they are allowed even to hit them if they don't pray. But yes I think we can implement it in wiser way but no body should have doubt that it must be implemented either one way or another. Exactly, parents. [i]Not[/i] the government. It's not a governments place to force people to follow a religion, whether they are of that religion or not. All it will lead to is rebellion and no one will actually love what they are doing, like it should be. Instead, they should invest in an education system that teaches people about the beauty of Islam, the benefits of prayer and so on. This will be a far more effective long term strategy. Well it's well known truth that Umar (rau) used to go around streets of Madina at night so nobody should be able to recognise him. That's way he used to get first hand knowledge about the people who he was governing. One of those nights he heard conversation between milkwoman and her daughter when milkwoman asked her daughter to mix water with milk but she refused since khalif Umar (rau) had forbidden it. He used to do this to find out, at street level, people who were unhappy with his rule, so he could improve his standards and serve his people better. He did not use this as an excuse to make sure people were at the mosque, that they were fasting, that their beard was the right length. This is an example of Shariah being enforced with Hikmah, and not as a dictatorship telling you where to be, how to act, what to say. The ahadith -- did the Prophet [saw] actually do these things? I mean, burning men who did not come to prayer? I always thought it was a figure of speech to show how very very important the prayer was, not actually going to houses and finding out who isnt at the mosque, why not when was the last time you were there? Its a matter of personal freedom. Would we really want our masques to filled with hypocrites that dont want to be there, taking up space which we require for other purposes? :P see also-- http://www.mediamonitors.net/heshamahassaballa17.html some good - meaning bad- examples of religious police in action. I know many more (couple, woman 6 months pregnant-walking on beach arrested and told to prove they were married; women arrested for wearing jeans under their abaya, a car was stopped and a non Muslim woman told to cover her face), but I can literally think of only*one* good story about the mutawa. If anyone could help out, thatd be good. However, I appreciate that this is just anecdotal evidence, and so not exactly water tight proof :D ma asalaamah and take care |
| 06/08/03 at 07:01:06 |
| Nabila |
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| Nomi |
| 06/08/03 at 17:14:37 |
| [slm] [quote] woman shot dead for divorcing her husband, woman gang raped for walking with a twelve year old boy [/quote] I think we should avoid sharing such stuff coz this is only rare but it sure passes out a bad impression [quote] Not wanting to pick a fight here, but Id genuinely like to know how many woman are actually in Parliament? [/quote] hm.. well this may not be relevant but, has the US ever seen a female president !? [i]"democracy!!"[/i], but three Muslim countries Turkey, Bangladesh and Pakistan have. |
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| muahmed |
| 06/08/03 at 19:48:46 |
| [slm] ;-) I do not understand! Why would someone commit a bigger sin to avoid a smaller one? for example: in afghanistan religious police used to beat up women who they thought weren't properly dressed or had squeeky shoes. Now if your wife is not of good character you are supposed to talk to her, scold her or stop sleeping with her. It is discouraged for the husband to even hit her with a miswak. So if a husband can not really even just beat up his wife of bad character how can a non-mehram MALE beat up a non-mehram WOMAN wheh the MALE is not even supposed to look at her let alone touch her let alone hit her? That is a far greater sin, I think, than the sin of wearing squeaky shoes, or clothes revealing ankles or even the sin of wearing tight clothes... I do not know if religious police should be there or not. I am not a faqih. What I do know is that the powers given to the religious police need to be given a great deal of though for they usually have been known to end up doing more harm than good Many scholars I have heard, explain the hadith about stopping an evil if you see it with your hand and then your mouth and so on... They say that if there is a possiblity that the sinner will go deeper into sin if you stop him by your hand than you must advise him... if advising him will result in his going deeper into sin then you must only feel bad about it in your heart. For example if a person is cursing some sahabi or the prophet (Saws) and you know if you hit him or scold him he will only curse more when you leave you should only feel bad about it in his heart to avoid the greater evil. Similarly, if a someone is not dressed properly, or does not have a beard, or is not going to the mosque, if there is a chance that beating them or being angry at them will only make them more stubborn, and make them more distant from islam then one should do 2 things. Try to inform people the sinner respects and listens to so that they may advice him/her. Feel bad about the sin and try to think of ways that will educate the people and inspire them to avoid the sin. |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 06/08/03 at 23:00:38 |
| [slm] lady_muarasaki_sa, If you don't mind me asking ... Do you live in Saudi Arabia? If so, how long have you been there? If not, how much time did you spend in Saudi Arabia when you did live there? And, which part of Saudi Arabia did you live in? Furthermore, did you personally have any experience with the mutawwa's on the streets? Did they say or do anything to you that you would like to share? Or did you see, with your own eyes, them doing something to someone else that you don't mind sharing? Jazaki Allahu khairan. |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 06/09/03 at 00:21:13 |
| [slm] [quote]Exactly, parents. Not the government. It's not a governments place to force people to follow a religion, whether they are of that religion or not. All it will lead to is rebellion and no one will actually love what they are doing, like it should be. Instead, they should invest in an education system that teaches people about the beauty of Islam, the benefits of prayer and so on. This will be a far more effective long term strategy[/quote] I completely agree. And also isnt there some hadith or ayah talking bout to let us have privacy in our homes? [quote]Quote: woman shot dead for divorcing her husband, woman gang raped for walking with a twelve year old boy I think we should avoid sharing such stuff coz this is only rare but it sure passes out a bad impression [/quote] Even if this happens to one person shouldnt it be considered a very big deal and not taken lightly?!?! Gang raped and and shot! Astagfirullah. We have to recognize these faults and try to do something about this. Im sorry but I cant believe you are worrying about a 'bad impression' What if this happened to your relative???? Also considering that these are our sisters... [quote]Shariah law? how scary for the women. How will they fare under more male control? A lady in our town was killed by her husband. He blamed her for being unfaithful, an accusation which he never leveld at her while she was alive. So the judge goes, ok, ur free. where's the justice in that? And that's shariah to them, by the way. but now, they just voted to put a *label* on it. And that's just one story[/quote] Yes I have also heard other stuff like this. go here: http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/Pakistan/ I have more information but it is not a direct link..if you wish to know then pm me. ..(by the way these are from muslim authentic sites) Anyhow could this be due to the fact that sharia law is not implemented there yet? (although I thought the pakistan constituion says that it is based on Qur'an and sunnah?) I dont recall where a man is aloud to kill his wife even if she is being unfaithful to him in shariah law! So is it possible that if shariah law is implemented correctly it will actually protect the woman more and keep from this injustice to happen? From what I know this mans punishment is actually supposed to be death (unless the parents of the girl forgive him) according to shariah law... |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 06/09/03 at 00:27:04 |
| [slm] [quote]hm.. well this may not be relevant but, has the US ever seen a female president !? "democracy!!", but three Muslim countries Turkey, Bangladesh and Pakistan have. [/quote] Im not sure if this is true but did/doesnt Malaysia (country with the largest muslim populatoin) also have/had a woman president? Anyhow Im not sure this is a good thing because in Islam woman are not suppose to be the leaders of an ummah, right? |
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| nouha |
| 06/09/03 at 01:59:48 |
| [slm] silverose - i thought that was only for the WHOLE ummah..all muslims..not countries..i guess we're gettin off topic... i support female presidents all the way!!!! 8) wasalam nouha:) |
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| faisalsb |
| 06/09/03 at 04:29:48 |
| [slm] Well I also feel we are getting away from the topic and most of the issues what we are talking over here are based on assumptions or the information what we get from western media. Lets wait and see how things move on the ground. I personally feel any effort which is made with good intention and which is implemented democratically it would result in something good. Otherwise people have right to rethink about their decision to send MUTAWAS again to assemblies. |
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| Nomi |
| 06/09/03 at 06:56:10 |
| [slm] [quote] Even if this happens to one person shouldnt it be considered a very big deal and not taken lightly! Gang raped and and shot! Astagfirullah. We have to recognize these faults and try to do something about this. Im sorry but I cant believe you are worrying about a 'bad impression' What if this happened to your relative? Also considering that these are our sisters... [/quote] indeed these are our own sisters and i feel as bad about it as anyone else but the kuffar associate such actions with islaam and hence exploit it... i know where you are coming from so ... okay lets not worry about the bad impression and about that female president thingie, i'll have to agree with sis silverose and there are many reaons for that but as said by others, lets not get away from the topic [i](i did but two wrongs dont make a right :) ... more than two? naah )[/i] [slm] Asim Zafar |
| 06/09/03 at 07:05:16 |
| Nomi |
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| Nabila |
| 06/09/03 at 09:42:19 |
| [slm] To respond to Brother Abu Hamza: Do you live in Saudi Arabia? Not anymore. If so, how long have you been there? Was born there. Moved from there when I was 8 moved back when I was 13. Moved back to London when I was 15. My dads family been based in the Gulf for about 50 years now, so we visit them alot. If not, how much time did you spend in Saudi Arabia when you did live there? Um. When I lived there I tended to spend alot of time there. ;D And, which part of Saudi Arabia did you live in? Jeddah. Nice place. Furthermore, did you personally have any experience with the mutawwa's on the streets? Yes. Did they say or do anything to you that you would like to share? Nothing I'd like to share, thanks. Or did you see, with your own eyes, them doing something to someone else that you don't mind sharing? They told my friend's dad how wrong his beard was, and ordered his daughter to cover her face. She was 11 at the time. I assume your questiions were to ascertain my credibility to speak bout the situation in that country. So, I've been there, done that - this isnt the media exaggerating isolated inccidents to make them seem the norm, but things that happen everyday. The problem is that Islamic law isnt properly enshrined and disseminated amongst the religious police. For example, the police stopped a woman and then began a theological argument amongst themselves as to whether she could wear her navy blue headscarf, or should they give her a black one to wear! However, I agree with alot reservations about the presence of religious police in Saudi, but [i]only[/i] because of the Haramain, so some kind of standards have to be maintained. But in other Muslim countries, I feel the situation is quite different. Don't get me wrong, I like Saudi, its my home; but that doesnt mean that I have to like [i]everything[/i] about it. ma asalaamah and take care |
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| Nabila |
| 06/09/03 at 09:46:34 |
| [slm] Just to show I'm not prejudiced... [url]http://www.arabnews.com/?page=0§ion=1&article=27173&d=9&m=6&y=2003[/url] ma asalaamah and take care |
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| humble_muslim |
| 06/09/03 at 12:08:13 |
| A A few points. First and foremost, what I am about to say is NOT based on what the west thinks of Sharia, but my own personal observations. Without any doubt, it is an obligation for a muslim country to set up Shariah. No-one is arguing about that. But you also need to look at the circumstances of the environment where you are setting up the Shariah. And Pakistan, as any and every Pakistani knows, has one HUGE problem : corruption. It filters all the way from the richest to th epoorest; it is a way of life; anyone trying to avoid it is considered stupid, and cannot survive in that kind of environment. At this stage, let me say that I am of Pakistani parents, so I am not being biased or racist here. So to me, the first question is : before implementing Shariah, why not clean up the corruption? I mean Shariah and injustice are incompatible; and corruption always brings about injustice. In the Zia era, when Shariah of a kind was introduced for zina, there was a case of a 12 year old girl who was kidnapped and raped for two weeks, and who herself got sent to prison for 5 years for zina (the judge said that from the state of her private parts, she had obviously had a lot of sex). And I'm sure there are countless other cases like that. So to put it bluntly, there can be no real Shariah without first cleaning up the corruption. Secondly, look at NWFP itself. I mean one of the main industries there is drugs (let's NOT start denying this). Has any attempt been made to clean this up ? This is something I feel very strongly against personally; haram income is the quickest way for a muslim to go to Hell, even if he prays tahhjjud for 8 hours every night. And one of the main reasons for the Shariah is to try to get the people into Jannah! Now I might be wrong, and maybe there is an ongoing attempt in NWFP to root out corruption and drugs. Unfortuanately, this needs a complete change in mind-set for the people of NWFP and, looking at the larger picture, at Pakistan itself for this to happen. And sorry to be pessimistic, but I have no hope that the mind-set of Pakistanis is ever going to change. |
| NS |
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| Nomi |
| 06/09/03 at 12:30:54 |
| [wlm] and [slm] So what shall we be doing [center]* Eliminate corruption, eliminate drugs, eliminate vulgarity, eliminate ..... and then implement shariah OR * Implement Shariah and live by its rules to eliminate all type of corruption from the society ? [/center] Asim Zafar |
| 06/09/03 at 12:33:31 |
| Nomi |
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| humble_muslim |
| 06/09/03 at 12:57:06 |
| AA In a perfect world, Nomi, you'd be right. But the BIG danger in Pakistan is that innocent people are at risk of getting <substitue_word_here>'ed if they get on the wrong side of the influential people. And again, everyone in Pakistan knows this, and most have experiened it. I mean the bottom line is that if you live in Pakistan, do NOT get invloved with the law and order system in anyway whatsoever, unless you know that you have more influence than the other party (what sort of justice is that?). Now the fact that Shariah calls for VERY harsh punishments for certain crimes - in an injust, corrupt society like Pakistan, this would mean that SOME of the weaker people have a potential to be abused, accused and framed and PUNISHED by the influential, corrupt people. And when that happens, people - both muslims and non-muslims - start associating Shariah and Islam with injustice, when the truth is exactly the opposite. As for the drugs part, I'd really like to know (i) if the drugs situation has changed since the MMA got into power (ii) whether the Shraiah laws call for any action against the druggies, and (iii) if the answer to (ii) is yes, how that will be enforced. I would personally love to see the whole drug thing in Pakistan ripped apart from top to bottom, but you need real justice and incorruptibality to even begin this. I mean look at how they got Al Capone in the USA when he was into alchol during prohibition. They created a department of the police which would be incorruptible ("The Untoucahables"), and they finally nailed him thru them. Now for me, that WOULD be a dream come true in Pakistan. Yes, they have anti-corrutpion squads in Pakistan, and the talk is that those are the guys who make the most money. And just to emphahsise this VERY important point again, anyone who makes any kind of income from drugs will not have ANY of his good deeds counted for him on the Day of Judgement. |
| NS |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 06/09/03 at 14:03:28 |
| [quote author=lady_murasaki_sa link=board=ummah;num=1054838645;start=15#25 date=06/09/03 at 09:42:19] They told my friend's dad how wrong his beard was,[/quote] That's odd. [quote]and ordered his daughter to cover her face. She was 11 at the time.[/quote] You mean like, "Please cover your face young lady!" Or "Woman, cover your face or else," waving a stick? The reason I ask is because what I am told by people who have been to Saudi Arabia and spent a considerable amount of time there is that the mutawwa's today are not like they used to be a few years earlier. Most of them today are gentle, who do correct people on the streets but with gentleness not roughness. Also, what I've heard is things are different in different parts of Saudi Arabia. Wallahu ta'ala a'lam. Jazaki Allahu khairan for your perspective. P.S. The link you gave does not seem to be working. |
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| Nabila |
| 06/09/03 at 14:39:44 |
| [slm] Oh yes -- its very different in different parts of Saudi; like the rules are enforced more strictly in Riyadh than Jeddah, which tends to be more relaxed. Things are really improving - Ive noticed that the media is very slightly opening up (one time a prince got flogged just like every commoner when he was caught harrasing girls - 10 or even 5 years ago would have been unthinkable) Try this link below http://www.arabnews.com/?page=0§ion=1&article=27173&d=9&m=6&y=2003 Then ofcourse, we come upon the issue of a corrupt regime implementing Shariah law at whim to keep down any trouble makers who dont like the fact that the rulers possess 70% of the wealth, while the 70% of the people left over have to fight it out for the remaining 30% . But I have a feeling thats another thread entirely :/ :D ma asalaamah and take care |
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| faisalsb |
| 06/10/03 at 05:32:18 |
| [slm] Following url might be helpfull for the people who have worries and doubts about implementation of Sharia in Pakistan: http://jamaat.org/news/pr060803a.html |
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| panjul |
| 06/11/03 at 22:57:12 |
| It filters all the way from the richest to th epoorest; it is a way of life; anyone trying to avoid it is considered stupid, and cannot survive in that kind of environment. My husband never got his driver's license cuz he didn't want to pay a bribe, even though they weren't asking for much. but it went against his principles. so he drives without a license. so far no one's asked him for it yet. as far as raping is concerned...too many cases where the gril gets punished for being raped! They want her to produce witnesses.??? so when a girl gets raped in pakistan, most of them do the smart thing and keep quite. Often those that go out to seek justice, get locked up or flogged. Who makes these decisions, not a street mob. They are qadis, and they make it based on "islam." A girl of 16 was murdered by her father for getting pregnant. (she had comitted zina). but did she deserve that from her family?? I don't think so! No one raised an eyebrow. That's sick. Allah's more forgiving than that. |
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| Nomi |
| 06/12/03 at 12:45:13 |
| [slm] But the whole point is that they may associate their STUPID actions with islaam but its not islaam. [slm] Asim Zafar |
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