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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| Tesseract |
| 06/05/03 at 21:31:40 |
| Assalamu 'alaikum, We are looking for an Imam for our community. The community people as usual are divided over the criteria to choose an Imam. Some of them say that it shouldn't be a requirement that Imam should know english, rather knowing Tajweed should be a requirement, whereas others say vice versa. Now, tomorrow, we have a meeting of some very selected brothers, and each one of them is to give their opinion. Its kinda voting thing that they'll do, I guess. I have also been asked specifically to come and give my opinion. Problem is, I have moved to States just 2 years back. Although I know my community very well, at least those who come to the mosque regularly, but still I think I lack the understanding in general what the priority should be, English speaking Imam or Imam knowing Tajweed, but may or may not be speaking English. I know for a fact that our community has been having problems with former Imam (who is still here), because he knows Tajweed, but doesn't speak English. All his halaqas and Jumu'ah khutbas have to be translated, and u always need another person to do that, which people hardly bother to volunteer. So, brothers and sisters who have grown up here in States, probably can shed some light, share their wisdom (If u have any ;)) and help me out what to say/choose. I don't want to give my opinion just for the sake of giving an opinion, but rather give a useful opinion. Hope u guys understand the dilemma. Jazaakumullahu khairan, Wassalam. |
| 06/05/03 at 21:33:45 |
| Tesseract |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| siddiqui |
| 06/06/03 at 00:36:05 |
| [slm] Tough choice,Like you I have been in the states for the past 2 years now and have come to realise the needs of our mosque closely since i live in the vicinity of the mosque(three mins walk alhamdullilah) and interact with the community as a whole 1) The need to speak english (if not the willingness to learn fast) a) Imam dosent only leads the community in prayer but leads the community in all aspects of Islamic life ,if he isnt able to communicate to the community in the language they understand then its is a daunting task and divisons occur in the community very fast ( we have it in ours) b) The youth are our future if the Imam cannot reach out to them speak in the way they understand then we would be very selfish folk depriving the youth of knowledge ,a source of councelling and a friend 2)Knowing of tajweed is very important too for unless u have a person who is well versed in the quraan while leading the prayers there are bound to be occasions where the community will correct him often this leads to friction and fights seen that too in my mosque sadly 3)The ablity to comprehend the context of the community and the ability to lead them as a united entity is very important too other wise if the Imam is very opiniated in one school of fiqh or the other or is unable or unwilling to apply the concepts of Islaam to the context and conditions of the local community it will be a source of fitnah ofr the community as a whole I know this dosent help too much but please see that you vote for a a pleasnt person who can lead the community without dividing it ,knows tajweed and the basics of Islam(Imam level) and communicate to the people in their language or is willing to learn the language quicly if he dosent know it |
| 06/06/03 at 00:48:55 |
| siddiqui |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| nouha |
| 06/06/03 at 00:38:00 |
| [slm] so many communities go through this... just a few weeks a local masjid was having imam try outs..where the imam would come and give a khutba and they would ask the ppl what they thought...... i dont know what happened from there... i have one suggestion .... how about gettin some girls up in that selection committee!! you want to make sure that the imam can correspond with the whole community...not just the guys!!! many times the Prophet Muhamad [saw] asked his wives for advice before making a choice... as for the whole english/tajweed.... i dont see how the community will benefit if he doesnt know english... wasalam nouha:) |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| Chris |
| 06/06/03 at 12:58:10 |
| I would add to the list of requirements the ability and willingness to sit down with Muslims individually and to help them with bits that they find difficult. If u have time, pls make dua for Nimatallah and Naeem who were very good to me. Salaam Chris |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| Nomi |
| 06/06/03 at 16:39:20 |
| [slm] and make sure that he isn't a so called modernist Muslim !! [quote] if you chop out cheaposity from a so called modernist's definition of the word modern then it'll be my definition of the word modern! and only then i would like to be called a modernist Muslim [/quote] Asim Zafar |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| siddiqui |
| 06/06/03 at 17:00:23 |
| [slm] [quote]and make sure that he isn't a so called modernist Muslim !! [/quote] u mean like riding a donkey on a highway instead of a car ? :o [wlm] |
| 06/07/03 at 01:45:51 |
| siddiqui |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| Nomi |
| 06/06/03 at 17:16:19 |
| [slm] [quote] u mean likr riding a donkey on a highway instead of a car ? [/quote] nope :P .. i mean someone who lives a potential life (broadminded, learned and everything) but "does not" twist islamic teachings, hadiths, sunnah etc [slm] Asim Zafar |
| 06/06/03 at 17:17:53 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| siddiqui |
| 06/06/03 at 17:44:39 |
| [slm] [quote]but "does not" twist islamic teachings, hadiths, sunnah etc [/quote] who is to decide that? what if the context of application changes ? for example principles fiqh was derived from the hadith and quraan after the death of the prophet based on the context of that time Most of them remain the same till date (you cannot have 4 rakhas for maghrib instead of three or no one can change drinking. selling transporting serving ... alcohol is haraam) Some of them where contextual based on the times prevailing then and the times have changed, like Islaam has spread to Nordic countries where the sun never sets for 6 months or if it sets for a very short time, how ill u determine the times of salaath and saum, Islaam had not spread there during those times so you wont find any rulings if you look up old littérateur or sometimes now because of change ,new circumstances have arisen that were not prevalent then where do you get the rulings from lets step aside and go back to the times of Imam Mohammed dagestaani (a student of Imam abu hanifa ) and his encounter with Imam Malik and the difference of opinion on Saa (measure for sadqathul fithr) it was based on contextual differences because the units of measurement where different in two places around the same period (since its a forbidden topic Iam not going to dwell on it further but you can look up references and ask scholars.... ) So certain things have to be interpreted according to the prevailing context yes based on quraan and sunnah to some it might look like a twist in the old teachings to others its a necessity of life Allahu aalam [wlm] Asim bhai have a [] TWIST on me ;) |
| 06/06/03 at 18:04:42 |
| siddiqui |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| Nomi |
| 06/06/03 at 18:05:54 |
| [slm] [quote] So certain things have to be interpreted according to the prevailing context yes based on quraan and sunnah to some it might look like a twist in the old teachings to others its a necessity of life [/quote] mashAllah nice thoughts bro siddique and i'm not objecting to anything that you wrote up there but there "are" these so called scholars who have been telling muslims to follow whatever they like from the islamic teachings coz according to them its hard to follow islaam in the west I came to know of an incident where one brother became a pervert after such comments of a so called scholars and you'll easily find those who'll say that men should not keep beards and women should not cover their heads, such scholars exist in jamayatul azhar as well !!! anyways i agree to what you've expressed in your last post [slm] Asim Zafar [quote] Asim bhai have a [that cola smiley here] TWIST on me ;) [/quote] PS: is that zam zam cola.... here lemme try ....... grup!!! ahhh reeefreshing ;) |
| 06/06/03 at 18:11:50 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| Mulla |
| 06/08/03 at 22:57:06 |
| An English speaking imam will last for say 6 months before he is involved in some politics, an un english speaking imam will last for years as he will only lead prayers and do the obligatory stuff. To unite the community it is not the masjid imam these days, we need other individuals for this task. IF you allow a masjid imaam to do this u are asking for a million and a half problems. The masjid imaams are not trained to unite the ummah in the first place, secondly they are usually of back grounds who are not "noble" especially from Pakistan and India, cause people in those countries send their most unfit childern to become imaams, especially in the 40 years of age group of imaams. Hence try to understand that the imaam is just someone who shall lead prayers and other obligatory stuff. Do not confuse or mix the imaam as the "leader" of ur community. This will wreak havoc on ur social circles and soon u will be fighting over issues not realted to the sunnah. Bring an imam of the maslak of the community, and not one from some other school of thought. Bring in people from Scientific and Engineering back grounds to deliver speeches with Islamic format in their talks. the imams are not trained in financial, social, or even in proper educational methods fit for the Western Muslims. Some are too strict and some are too liberals. Hence specialization of each is better... Please do not take my comments as hadees or Quran, these are just recomendations based on living in Islamic society in New York for many years and obviously each place differs but still the underlying psychology is the same. Mulla! |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 06/08/03 at 23:12:23 |
| [slm] Brother Mullah I sooooooooooooooooo agree with you. Gosh this has been crossing my mind many times lately. Lately I noticed we treat the imam like he is the priest. I mean then what difference is there? From what I know imam is the one who calls the prayer, and we have ended up making him the leader of the community. I have seen many people who say 'go ask your local imam' The Imam doesnt necessarily have to be a knowledgable person but he should just be able to call the prayer. I think it is more appropriate if one says ask the knowledgable people in your community' But unfortuantely Brother Mullah nowadays everywhere in America we have made the imam some very big man. And whatever he says goes. Oh no 'the imam said this then it has to be truth' Astagfirullah... I know many nonmuslims or people who leave Islam argue about that why do muslims say that we dont have the 'priesthood' because they treat the imam the same way. And yes some people do. I mean many people will go to an imam or im sorry to say 'mullah' so they can pray istikhara for them or to actually decide their future. Astagfirullah... I just think that we should keep the imam and leader of community separate, or atleast just dont call him the imam but also say leader of community. I do believe this misleads nonmuslims and muslims as well. Because isnt the only criteria for the imam is that he can call the prayer? ANd doesnt the word 'imam' in arabic mean call to prayer or something??? |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| Mulla |
| 06/09/03 at 01:02:42 |
| [slm] Exactly, the "imam" should be only limited to the prayers and obligatory stuff. The leader should be some one else. simple! i will write more on this tomorrow.... Mulla! |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| Nomi |
| 06/09/03 at 08:36:03 |
| [slm] I agree with what you guys are saying but again, it shouldn't be generalized because in my area [i](i live in lahore)[/i] there are two jamaya masjids and the imams of both of them are among the most knowledgeable and practicing scholars in my city, same may be true for west. [quote] I know many nonmuslims or people who leave Islam argue about that why do muslims say that we dont have the 'priesthood' because they treat the imam the same way. And yes some people do. I just think that we should keep the imam and leader of community separate, or atleast just dont call him the imam but also say leader of community [/quote] How would this help you answer them (the ppl who argue) coz they'll then argue that islaam has got priesthood in shape of leader of community. Some Non Muslims will always keep arguing, n e wayz i like the idea of having two different ppl who specialize in their fields and then its upto the community to realize that they really need two guys !! Asim Zafar |
| 06/09/03 at 08:38:29 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| UmmHurrairah |
| 06/09/03 at 10:16:39 |
| [slm] :-* I'm a muslim youth, growing up in the states and HE HAS to speak english. If he doesn't, most times my thoughts wander... I honestly would love to know what he's saying so that I'm a bit enlightened and can atleast take the knowledge back with me after prayer. At our masjid they were allowing some of the youth to give khutbahs, so they know what it's like.. and the young brother prepared a speech in english... I found the khutbah quite interesting, since I related to a lot of what he said. I see how everyone is saying that the Imam should not be looked at as a leader, since he is only a person who calls for prayer and leads the khutbah. It's very true, bebzi for Mulla. [] Still, he's a big figure in the Muslim community and sometimes for families it's the only time where they get to hear 30 minutes of talk about Islam throughout the whole week. It should be worthwhile. Just my tuppens... :-) [wlm] >^o.o^< |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| muahmed |
| 06/09/03 at 11:23:39 |
| [slm] ;-) I am glad to know you are from a "Noble" background Mulla, for anyone who is not "Noble" would not identify others as not being "Noble". [quote author=Mulla link=board=madrasa;num=1054859503;start=0#9 date=06/08/03 at 22:57:06] The masjid imaams are not trained to unite the ummah in the first place, secondly they are usually of back grounds who are not "noble" especially from Pakistan and India, cause people in those countries send their most unfit childern to become imaams, especially in the 40 years of age group of imaams. [/quote] Although it is true that in some cases poor parents in villages send their kids to the madrassas because lodging food etc is free and they dont have to spend anything on the child then. However that is not the case in big madrassas in cities. The madrassas I have come accross make their students give atleast the grade 10 and grade 12 board exams. Many students there are of their own free will and usually from very religious families (for e.g. their father is an imam of a masjid or a hafiz). So it seems that children whose parents were so poor that they had to put them in a madrassa are not noble? Is wealth a measure of being noble? Boys from religious families who attend madrassas are not noble? If being a good Muslim is not noble then what is? The imams that come to usa from india and pakistan usually have an excellent background in religious studies but are never given their due respect just because they dont speak english fluently. For example here is the "un-noble" background of a masjid imam from Pakistan: Hafiz ul Qur'an with Tajwid-ul Qur'an-il-Karim. Over 10 years of experience in coordinating and teaching Qur'an, Islamic studies and Arabic language. Trained under Sheikh Ali Abdur Rehman Alhuzaifi, Imam Masjid in-Nabwi. Daurah Hadith under Maulana Salimullah Khan of Karachi, Pakistan. Tajwid-ul Qur'an-il-Karim, Tahfiz-ul-Qur'an-il-Karim, Madina Munawara, Saudi Arabia. Al-Ijaza-al-Aliya with Islamic Law, Islamic University of Madina, Madina Munawara, Saudi Arabia. (Bachelor's degree) Trained in Al-daurattu-tadreebiah (training in teaching Islamiat, including Hifz ul-Qur'an), Benevolent Group of Memorizing Holy Qur'an, Madina Munawara, Saudi Arabia. Masters of Arts in Islamiat and Arabic, University Grants Commission, Islamabad, Pakistan. Translation of Jami Al Tirmazi with tashreehat and taudeehat into Urdu (1990). Translation of Nasai (1993). I have yet to come accross a pakistani or indian imam in a masjid whose background did not leave me in awe. These days I goto a masjid whose imam studied in "Nadwatul Ulama" in india. That is a place of excellent scholarly repute and some of the greatest scholars in indo-pak have been from there or have been associated with it. If he is the most unfit child of his parents, then I must say his other brothers must be really great shaykhs for I think he himself is pretty amazing. Let me assume the worst case scenario as you outlined. A child from a poor family who does not seem to have an aptitude for maths or traditional subjects at school is sent to a madrassa. He becomes good enough that people in usa select him to bring him here as an imam. Just because he was from a poor family and did not have an aptitude for science, he is not noble? The fact that he knows the Quran by heart with tajweed and has a lot of religious knowledge, and spent his life in the company of pious men is nothing? |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| Nomi |
| 06/09/03 at 12:02:55 |
| [slm] [quote] The madrassas I have come accross make their students give atleast the grade 10 and grade 12 board exams. Many students there are of their own free will and usually from very religious families (for e.g. their father is an imam of a masjid or a hafiz) [/quote] Let me add few lines from my personnel experience, i know many, many well educated shaykhs in the jamayas around me. I would like to mention few examples here, my elder bro is taking a fulltime course for becomming an "Alim", he is a graduate and has got 35 students in his batch (all graduates), the islamic university he goes to is named "Jamaya Ashrafia", all of his batch mates are quite learned and well mannered and yes, from noble families, my elder bro was always more smart, hardworking than me, i am a Software Engineer but he "chose" to study religion by leaving his studies of Chartered Accountancy [i] that can earn one a very lavish salary and all[/i]. So there are many examples of shinning students becomming Alims, 35 in the example that i quoted of just one batch of just one islamic university (madrassa). [slm] Asim Zafar |
| 06/09/03 at 12:17:06 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| Mulla |
| 06/09/03 at 19:28:21 |
| [slm] Nobility , is not subjective to what you have understood. No amount of urdu medium education of the Molvis of Pak and India will enable them to work for the "unification" of the ummah in general. The entire sallybus of our Islamic Madaris is devoid of issues of youth in the West. The entire sallybus of Islamic University Islamabd is devoid of higher math which is required to be able to think cognitively on the basis of which a teenager in the west is subjected to during his education. The defensive attitude you have taken my brother towards the ulema is absolutely correct in the sense if that I was degrading the ulema, astagfirullah, ulema are the waris of nabi......but look at the two hundred or so masajids of new york, I attest to you , cause I worked for the masjid unions, that each and every one masjid is due to the conflict of a group of people who was led by the molvis. The corruption of this group of people can be talked about at length, but please consider the post depression era of subcontinent and keep in mind that the molvis in the age group of 40 years or so, plus minus are the ones which we are talking here. Not generalizing everyone, but u really cant point out even a dozen or so ulema in the west who have a fraction of understanding of the youth issues here. Plus a million and a half hafiz are created in pakistan and india on any given start of the year, but did u know that not one percent of these hufaaz are able to understand the word they read.....and we belive in the miracle of quran.....dont take my comment as a argument but its the fact brother that, the moderen education fails muslims as well as the traditional education fails us miserably. Coming back to the issue of nobility, for the work of deen , yes we have no caste system, but thats theoratical, not practical....meaning that what is in custom today and not what our education should be....I mean how can a person with so much love of allah and prayers and obligation can be unnoble, no way, but what is the practical reality that indeed more then 80 percent of the kids in madaris in india pak and bangladesh are from below poverty groups, which in not "bad" but when u give the most important control of religion to such crowd, you can expect selfishness and nothing more...These are very hard realities but its time to expect them, once in philadephia I met a African American brother , and I asked him where has he been for the past year cause i did not see him in the ijtima's, he said he was in Syria, upon hearing that he was in syria , I asked for what, he said he has enrolled in an Alim course in Syria with Shky Dagastani ! I asked how come, his answer made me so happy: "HOW LONG WILL WE DEPEND ON ULEMA FROM INDIA AND PAKISTAN THE ONES WHO DONT UNDERSTAND OUR PROBLEMS EVEN IF THEY UNDERSTAND THE LANGUAGE! SO I DECIDED TO BECOME ONE! This statement of his just brought tears to my eyes , cause brother, the pain of the west is so deep that belive me its a socio cultural issue rather then the language, I teach english to about 12 ulema , including two from umal kura saudia, but belive me none of them have the "love" of the people of the west in general. With out the "love" for the people of western islamic circle of live, how can someone tolerate us ... Please dont feel bad if my choice of words was unnoble for those who will be the most exalted , but in the kiyamah! Mulla! |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| sofia |
| 06/10/03 at 12:30:39 |
| As-salaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah, Ideally (as I think is being inferred to on this thread), the Imam should have more abilities than to just lead the prayer. Muslims in the West (or anywhere) are impressionable. If we don't learn akhlaaq (character) from within, we'll learn it from outside. So besides being knowledgeable (whether it's an Islaamic studies or "Alim" degree), the Imam should [i]be[/i] of upright character. I've been to masaajid where the Imam was just a figure who led the prayers and sometimes held halaqas/answered a few questions. Although I know they are knowledgeable (to varying degrees) and must have a lot of other things on their plates, I found it hard to go to masjids like this - mainly b/c there was not much else going on besides the Salaah. Having seen other masaajid, my impression of a masjid is now much more holistic (and you'll think I'm crazy until you experience it, inshaa'Allah). Some of the most successful masjids that I know of in the west (by successful, I mean not only promoting but embodying the teachings of Islaam) have Imams that wear many "hats," because there are so many other things going on at the masjid (or they appoint other qualified individuals to take on specific roles). It's not just someplace to pray, but a place to learn, meet, etc. Some of their duties (that I know of) include: lead the prayer, answer basic fiqh questions, marriage counseling, work with a competent shura to make decisions (rather than an "executive board" made up of unqualified "uncles" - no offense), put aside time to meet with individuals with problems/questions, conduct regular community halaqas/study classes (on basic topics like Salaah/prayer, Charity/zakaah, Funerals/janaazah, Hajj, etc), oversee other institutes at the masjid (altho others may head them), promote an Islaamic community (ie, expansion of Muslim-owned homes near the masjid, Muslim-owned businesses, etc), work well with others (grew up in the culture of the youth he teaches, has classes for sisters, works well with non-Muslims), know English and Arabic and tajweed, study/studied Islaam extensively, and above all, tries to implement the character of the Prophet (S), etc. In other words, they have a broader vision of what the Muslim ummah should embody and actually take steps towards it (even if it's just a small core group of like-minded individuals at first). These types of Imams don't have much time for "politics." You can see the difference in the communities they serve. Even if they're small in number, the community conforms to the masjid, rather than makes the masjid conform to them. I've seen Imams who are very well-read and knowledgeable, mashaa'Allah, but whose communities rejected them because of their failure to respond to the needs of the community. Other times, the community rejects them b/c the "executive board" overpowers the Imam and/or reduces their function at the masjid. And still other times, the communtity rejects them because they, themselves, are not ready for an Imam with vision. Allahu A'lim. But when it works, subhan'Allah, the community will grow and [i]want[/i] to be at the masjid for more than just Salaah. Just suggesting some things that I've seen work, mashaa'Allah, no offense intended. It definitely takes someone who has a "vision" for his community, can withstand this type of work for years, and who has a supportive family (who he realistically won't see much of). May Allah strengthen these types of Imams and the masjid communities to do good. Aameen. "People are the dependents of God; the closest to Him are the most useful to His dependents." -- Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) |
| NS |
| 06/10/03 at 14:17:17 |
| sofia |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| Nomi |
| 06/13/03 at 11:09:09 |
| [slm] [quote] the pain of the west is so deep that belive me its a socio cultural issue rather then the language, I teach english to about 12 ulema , including two from umal kura saudia, [/quote] Just wanted to appreciate your efforts brother Mullah, may Allah reward you and give you more strength and resources to carry on your "Jehaad" AAMEEN [slm] Asim Zafar. PS: and I like your screen name |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| se7en |
| 07/09/03 at 07:44:00 |
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh, I'm having a hard time understanding how we can think that the best type of leaders, advisors, and teachers for our communities are those who can't lead, advise or teach :P If someone is not able to speak the language of the people, they cannot function in any of these capacities. [quote]An English speaking imam will last for say 6 months before he is involved in some politics, an un english speaking imam will last for years as he will only lead prayers and do the obligatory stuff. IF you allow a masjid imaam to do this u are asking for a million and a half problems. The masjid imaams are not trained to unite the ummah in the first place[/quote] I don't think the solution to this problem is to import imams from overseas who are completely out of touch with the community they are to lead... wouldn't it be of more benefit to actually *train* imams, to do a better job of counseling and dealing with the affairs of the community? ISNA has developed training programs like this, and I think we are in need of more like them. [quote]From what I know imam is the one who calls the prayer, and we have ended up making him the leader of the community. I have seen many people who say 'go ask your local imam' The Imam doesnt necessarily have to be a knowledgable person but he should just be able to call the prayer. I think it is more appropriate if one says ask the knowledgable people in your community' [/quote] Perhaps there is some confusion about terminology here. Literally the word 'imam' means one who is in front. It can, and often times is, used to refer to one who leads the salah. Anyone who knows the basic fiqh of salah can lead a jamaa', and it is not a necessary prerequisite for them to be well versed in the islamic sciences, or to be qualified to give rulings, etc. However, the word 'imam' which simply means 'one in front' is also often times used to refer to people of knowledge, appointed by the community to be spiritual leaders, to advise, teach classes, and so forth. So... when people on the board say 'it may be better to speak to your imam', they probably mean that people should refer to these appointed individuals, as they most likely have the necessary background of study, experience, and wisdom that we often times lack. [quote]the "imam" should be only limited to the prayers and obligatory stuff. The leader should be some one else. [/quote] How is it that we pride ourselves on Islam being a holistic faith, in which both spiritual and mundane practices are enacted according to the Shari'ah, and yet we seek to seperate the two when it comes to our masajid and communities? Understandably, we fear creating a clergy of people whose answers are not questioned and who are given reverence without due cause. At the same time, our tradition teaches us that those with knowledge, and who enact this knowledge sincerely, are the people to whom we should turn for guidance - in all matters. Simply because an imam comes from a certain background, or has eloquence with words or sweetness in his recitation is not sufficient when our communities are suffering from the absence of dynamic leaders with viable skills. Many of our families are broken, youth lost, hearts in agitation, minds thirsty for knowledge. We are in dire need of *more* from our imams than a nice recitation during salatul taraweeh. w'Allahu a'lam. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah |
| 07/09/03 at 11:23:54 |
| se7en |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 07/11/03 at 18:45:54 |
| [quote]So... when people on the board say 'it may be better to speak to your imam', they probably mean that people should refer to these appointed individuals, as they most likely have the necessary background of study, experience, and wisdom that we often times lack. [/quote] I understand sister but isnt it better if one says 'go ask a knowledgable person' since it is not necessary for a imam to be knowledgable. his only requirements is to be able to lead the prayer. by reading things like 'go ask your imam' people may think that whatever the imam says is the last word although he might not even be knowledgable in the area. and Allah (swt) knows best. ps i understand people might say imam (with the good intention) because he may be the knowledgable person but as i said it might not always be true so hopefully insh'Allah we can change our way |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| Trustworthy |
| 07/11/03 at 19:10:42 |
| [slm] Here's my 2 cents in this matter. Ok. Our community has 3 committees: community, education, and women all of which the Imam is a great deal of. He speaks broken English, but is fluent in Arabic and Indonesia. I don't know Arabic nor do I know Indonesia, but his broken English was needed so that the younger generation and myself could listen to his Talim as well. What he also does for the community is fund raising and may other things like take us out on protests, etc. but the thing is he does quite alot besides just lead prayer. Anyone can do that. Because of his Arab influences, we've been able to raise money or our school, etc. and he gets along with the outside community. We have an Amir as well, but he just makes decisions about the community and he usually asks advice from the Imam. There you have it. If all you want is an Imam to lead prayer, you're a man, you can do that. You can even give Khutba during Jumma Prayer. And that could be on a volunteer basis. Ma-asalaama..... |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| Maliha |
| 07/11/03 at 20:23:45 |
| [slm] Subhana Allah a couple things that are beffuddling me mind ??? An Imam that is not knowledgable and leads only prayers??!!!! Despite your claim Mulla, that you have stayed in the west for a while, it seems like you don't truly grasp the needs we have in this society. This meagre role of an Imam is typical of back home cases...where the whole community is designed to deal with socio political issues that are affecting it. Back home if someone needed advice they didn't need an imam, they would go to their respected aunty or grandma. Weddings were coordinated by the whole community, children were raised by the whole "village", Zakat was taken care of mainly by the richer elements of society, halalified "youth" activities were left up to the youth with close supervision of the older folks, if someone was sick the whole neighborhood would congregate around their house, Janaza by community etc. etc. So in essence what of the Masjid and the role of the Imam? Not much...people go to the Masjid to pray only...and the rest is dealt with by the community. but then you have the West, where we have a *HUGE* void in terms of everything spiritual and mundane. People go to the Masjid becuz the community can not offer anything. Our neighbors are Non Muslims, our children have no other Muslim kids to play with or meet (outside of the Masjid), there are hosts of Reverts that don't even have a Muslim family to turn to in case of family problems etc. The rich people give to the Masjid becuz they are cut off or don't even know who the poorer Muslims are, most of our kids attend Non Muslim schools, in case of sickness, death, divorce, etc there is no safety net of Muslim neighbors, families, friends to gather around and help. Imagine a typical immigrant or revert where are they supposed to go? Imagine they go to a Masjid where everyone prays and the Imam who you would naturally approach for your issues, questions, concerns either doesn't understand you or tells you "sorry chap, i am not Qualified to answer your question, but if you come for Isha you can catch another prayer behind me!" I mean seriously, this is the type of set up that we want? The person who leads prayers *should* be the most knowledgable according to the Rasul [saw], not just anyone who knows the fiqh of salaat. There is Hikma in this, and a definition of the holistic interpretation of leadership in Islam. Imams in the West HAVE to be dynamic, articulate, learned, leaders with the ability to galvanize their communities, tap into the thirsty souls of all those who gather around the Masjid and be able to offer cups of respite to any and all who ask for it whether it's in terms of counselling, questions, etc. They can delegate youth work, Dawah work, etc to other committees but they have to over see everything. Ideally look at the Example of the Rasul [saw], he was everything and everyone Subhana Allah. A business man, a leader, a teacher, a counsellor, a husband, a father, a Mujaahid...He was calm when needed, fiery at times, he engaged, motivated, he gave, he lead, he was upright, he had Sahabas around him who yearned to emulate his every little deed...yet what is this new fangled doctrine of our Imam should just lead prayers??! And some engineer be a leader with some islamic text? Are we listening to the absurbity of our statements? We wonder why our communities are dry, we wonder why there is no fire, our youth have no higher aspiration than to be more doctors, engineers, etc.. there is no substance just rote, no passion for the deen, no compassion even...we wonder where it stems from..when we have as sophia said non qualified uncles leading the Masajid and perpetually engaged in power struggles, Imams with muted voices (and hopefully can't speak the language either?), distracted youth, and clueless parents... Subhana Allah. Recently at a talk this brother exclaimed how in typical Islamic cities the structure is such that every road, market place, etc. leads to the Masjid. The center of every section of the city is a Masjid, the center of the city itself is a Masjid.... he said it spoke to the centrality of the Masajid to the people's hearts and lives....Nowadayz the center of everything is the mall...descent into the dajjal... We wonder about our state...when we are deliberately squeezing the life force out of what should be the center of our lives? I have more to say..but i have spoken too much... Sis, Maliha [wlm] |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| Trustworthy |
| 07/11/03 at 20:34:15 |
| [slm] Mystic....you don't speak too much. You speak the truth right there. Ma-asalaama.... |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| Nomi |
| 07/11/03 at 20:53:05 |
| [slm] erm... wasn't the last post of bro Mullah all about whats being said right above !? ... |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| moonie |
| 07/14/03 at 16:06:39 |
| [slm] for someone to be an imam they have to have the most knowage in the community so if some one is Mufti they should be the imam. [wlm] |
| Re: Choosing Imam for ur community! |
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| moonie |
| 07/14/03 at 16:08:11 |
[slm] ADVICES TO THE TRUSTEES (MUTAWALLIS) OF THE MASJIDS It is not permissible to assume the post of mutawalli for the sake of honour and self-esteem. If one takes up this responsibility with this intention, then he would have indulged himself in such a calamity, from which it would be impossible to attain salvation in the hereafter. To assume the responsibility of mutawali it is imperative for one to possess the required qualities and capabilities. If one lacks these, it is advised that he relinquish this sacred duty and entrust it to those more able and deserving. A mutawalli must comply with the following conditions: 1. He must have the right of trusteeship. This right, in sequence of priority, goes first to the person who made the endowment (waqf). Second is the person appointed by the endower himself. Next is the Muslim ruler or the appointed Muslim governor of the district. Thereafter this right rests with the Muslim Judge (Qaadhi), then finally with the person whom the inhabitants of the locality choose. (Shaami, Book of Waqf - Page 384 / Vol. 5) 2. He must be a sane Muslim. 3. He must be well acquainted with the regulations pertaining to endowment and trust (waqf). 4. He must have a practical and theoretical knowledge concerning the affairs of managing the endowment (waqf). (Durrul Mukhtaar & Shaami) This means that he should not be so ignorant as to be unable to differentiate between a capable and non-capable candidate for appointment as lmaam or Muazzin. It should not be that he fails to consult learned people and disassociate himself from senior Ulama in related matters. He must also not be so busy that he is unavailable to attend to the affairs of the trust. 5. He must be a trustworthy person, taking care not to misappropriate a single cent. 6. He must not involve himself in such futile engagements wherein people destroy their wealth, like gambling and bribery. 7. He must be an "Allah-fearing" and pious person - not a faasiq, i.e. an open sinner who indulges in major sins such as drinking, adultery, dealing in interest, shaving the beard, neglecting salaah, discarding the fardh salaah with jamaat (congregation), acquiring livelihood by unlawfw means, etc. Thus, if any trustee is found to be involved in such actions it will be incumbent (waajib) to dismiss him from office, even though he may the endower himself. (Durrul Mukhtaar with Shaami , Vol 5 - Pg. 385) 8. He should not be one who requested for the position as a trustee. If any close relative of the endower complies with the above conditions he should be appointed as a trustee. However, if all these qualities are not found in any individual then such a person cannot be a mutawalli nor can he be appointed as one, since this will constitute an act of sin. THE MUTAWALLI'S OBLIGATION TOWARDS THE MASJID 1. He should safeguard the income and property of the Masjid, meeting the necessary expenses and avoiding unnecessary expenditure. These days funds are generally squandered on expenses which have no importance in the shariah, but are merely spent because unenlightened trustees deem them to be imperative. These people should fear Allah, for on the day of Qiyaamah they will be accountable for every cent. The mutawallis of the masjid must take the onus upon themselves to consult the Ulama, at the first opportunity, regarding the detailed rulings pertaining to these expenses and the running of the masiid in general. 2. He must keep a proper record of all the income and expenditure of the masjid. 3. According to the best of means, a proper Imaam must be appointed. If however, instead of a competent person, an unfit and inefficient person is appointed to serve the community and deen at large then the warning sounded in the following Hadith should be heeded to : It is narrated that whosoever appoints someone to a post whereas within his sphere of influence there are more deserving persons, he has betrayed Allah, His Nabi (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) and the Muslims in general. (Fathul Qadeer) 4. He must appoint such a Muazzin who is well acquainted with the times of Salaah (and the correct pronunciation of the azaan). 5. He should give due priority to the maintenance of the masjid building as well as it's other associated facilities. Security should also be given due consideration. 6. Cleanliness, lighting and water facilities must also be adequately arranged. 7. It is of paramount importance for the Mutawalli to ensure the performance of the five daily salaah in congregation and always strive towards increasing the number of musallis (in the masjid). Each mutawalli must look sincerely into these duties and exert his utmost efforts towards achieving these ends. It is noticed that the mutawallis of the various masaajid usually do not fully discharge their responsibilities, hence becoming sinners. Special care must be exercised in the appointment of an Imaam, because due to any. shortcomings in this regard, thousands more will mushroom which can lead the Muslims to deviation. If someone is an Imaam it does not entitle his son to the same. Since Imaamat is not a legacy, the most competent and deserving person should be appointed. (The following are the cardinal requirements for an Imaam) 1. He should be well versed in relevant masaa'il Pertaining to Imaamat and salaah). 2. He must have mastered tajweed rules (to facilitate correct recitation of qiraat in salaah). 3. He should adhere to the faraaidh, waajibaat, sunnah and mustahabaat. 4. He must refrain from haraam and makroohaat. If the correct choice of an Imaam cannot be made, a reliable Aalim should be asked to interview a potential candidate. To use only a beautiful voice as a yard-stick in choosing an Imaam is pure ignorance. However, if together with the above cardinal requirements, the Imaam also possesses a beautiful voice then this will be an added asset. Once the right Imaam has been appointed, due respect must be shown to him. He must not be considered as a personal subordinate of the mutawalli. He is the leader and should be followed. This should always be kept in mind. Such a salary should be stipulated for him that will enable him to lead a decent and peaceful life. Stinginess should never be shown with regard to this issue. If there is a need, other expenses should be curtailed but a low and unreasonable salary should never be given to the Imaam or Muazzin. If negligence prevails, it should be borne in mind that man is often forced to fulfil his basic needs by other means. The Muslim jurists (rahimahumullah) have stated that if somebody commits himself to the service of a community, it is waajib upon them that they meet his expenses. When the Imaam stands up to reform the masses, it is incumbent upon the mutawallis to jointly shoulder the cart and assist him to achieve his religious goal. In the event of the ignorant public raising objections and undue criticism against the Imaam. It is the duty of the mutawallis to stop them. If people disapprove of his propagation of the truth and the musallis decrease, they should first be made to understand. If they persist (in their disapproval) then they should be ignored, because it is better to have a few abiding to the sunnah and shariah rather than a deviated crowd. If any Imaam does anything contrary to the shariah or introduces innovations, then he should be dismissed. The Imaam 'must have freedom of expression, he should never be hindered by the mutawallis. Some mutawallis dislike and are offended by the Imaam's mentioning of any vices or faults in which they are involved, thus they prevent the Imaam from such lectures. Such an attitude leads to severe sins. They will also be considered amongst those subjected to the severe warnings given in the following aayaat: "They prevent others_from the path of Allah.' 'Who can be more unjust than he who prevents the name of Allah been taken in the house of Allah.' The mutawalli should never interfere in the Imaam's ibaadat, lectures and religious services. According to the shariah the mutawalli has no right of intervention. His responsibility is to see to the proper maintenance and functioning of the masjid, as mentioned above. If the mutawalli adopts and adheres to the above mentioned advices, with a true spirit, then it is highly believed that he will be amongst the good-named mutawallis in the hereafter and be absolved of the great responsibilities which he shouldered. He will be justly rewarded, Inshaa-Allah. [wlm] |
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