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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| SwordOfAllah |
| 06/05/03 at 21:37:40 |
| [slm] [] :-Xy is it that, lots of born rased muslims, are worse than converted muslims................isnt true that the born rased muslim, knows more in islam than the converted muslims...........? Sword Of Allah ;-) |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| siddiqui |
| 06/05/03 at 22:11:18 |
| [slm] well every child is born as a muslim but they become what there parents make them later that is jews christians magians or remain as muslims The important thing in both cases whether one is brought up as a Muslim or one reverts back to Islam is it because of choice? or chance? If its because of choice(revert or otherwise) because one wants to connect back to their creator then they are generally 'better practising muslims'(though Allah swt is the only judge of these things) Those who are by chance(revert or otherwise)/force/culture/tradition /marriage then...................... Let us all to be better muslims inshAllah and make duas that Allah swt keeps us on the straight path till our very last breath Ameen Allahu aalam [wlm] |
| 06/06/03 at 11:20:36 |
| siddiqui |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| Tesseract |
| 06/05/03 at 22:46:23 |
| Wa'alaikum Assalam wa rahmatullah, [quote]isnt true that the born rased muslim, knows more in islam than the converted muslims...........? [/quote] Whereas knowledge does make a difference, practice of knowledge makes the ultimate difference. Imam Shafi'i's saying: All humans are dead except those who have knowledge, and all those who have knowledge are asleep, except those who do good deeds, and those who do good deeds are deceived, except those who are sincere, and those who are sincere are always in a state of worry. Wassalam. |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 06/06/03 at 00:47:46 |
| [slm] [quote author=Bulwark of Islam link=board=madrasa;num=1054861606;start=0#2 date=06/05/03 at 22:46:23]All humans are dead except those who have knowledge, and all those who have knowledge are asleep, except those who do good deeds, and those who do good deeds are deceived, except those who are sincere, and those who are sincere are always in a state of worry.[/quote] Subhan Allah! May Allah have Mercy on him. I guess I've found my new signature :) |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| Caraj |
| 06/06/03 at 02:03:13 |
| I personally think it could go either way. If someone was raised in a practicing Islamic home they would know more than a convert but sometimes if raised in a non practicing yet Islamic home then the egar and hungry for getting into Islam convert goes crazy trying to read and learn and digest so much that they know more. They are more opne and spend more time learning. But then whose to say who knows more, should we not all be incouraging and supportive of one another helping each other to learn and grown in faith and striving to do what is pleasing and right toward and for Allah? Make sense? |
| 06/06/03 at 02:06:08 |
| Caraj |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| little._.sister |
| 06/06/03 at 05:10:44 |
| [wlm] well I guess in some cases, those who are "born muslims", as in born into a muslim family, can sometimes take it all for granted. For example, when something like performing prayers feels like just a consistent physical activity instead of a spiritual one. Or when reading the Quran was just a matter of pronouncing the arabic letters instead of truly trying to understand the beautiful content. Of course this isn't how it is for everyone, but I'm just saying this from my own personal experience and view (also on some people close to me). It took me several years to really learn to love being a muslim, as I do now. As for converts, I suppose they have a lot more curiousity (since a lot of things in Islam is new to them) and willingness to learn, and that plays an important part in being a good muslim, doesn't it? Anyway, converts or born muslims, we're all brothers and sisters struggling towards good :) wassalam |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| Nafisa |
| 06/06/03 at 10:13:42 |
| [slm] I think this constant elevation of revert muslims is getting just a little bit stale now. Because it just isn't true. Born muslims can be just as curious and eager to learn about Islam as reverts. It all depends on the individual. perhaps the "novelty" aspect of starting a whole way of life that a revert experiences gets misconstrued as enthusiasm that born muslims don't seem to have but that's only because born muslims are used to Islam being a part of their life. That doesn't mean they are blase about it tho' and neother do they have all the answers. I'm probably not explaining it well, so i'll just second what siddiqui said. |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| Nomi |
| 06/06/03 at 16:29:44 |
| [slm] I know a convert to islaam from turkey (ex jew) its been around three years that she has converted and she is really knowledgeable and practicing. But there are examples that show otherwise so it depends As for Mr. Bean's ex-post ... this arabic lyric is for you buddy fa saufa tara ezen kashafatil gubaru ...... um farasun tahta ridgelika um hemaru i'll give out the meanings later inshAllah, try digging it till then :) Asim Zafar |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| jannah |
| 06/06/03 at 20:11:55 |
| [wlm] Just to clear it up 'sword of Allah' is not an agent.. he is in our community and ma'shallah a great ;-) |
| born muslims VS converted muslims: explanation |
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| SwordOfAllah |
| 06/10/03 at 20:19:55 |
| [slm] yea, i guess i agree w/ a little of everybodys. but Y i brought this point out? well..............ok lemme just say i kno ppl. heres muslim "X" n he is born muslim. then theres muslim "Y", convert. *i agree w/ the fact, that it depends on the person himself, how dedicated he or she is, then i agree w/ the fact that the born muslim sees islam as a spirual act, and not a habit, like sum born muslims. "X" loves islam so he is more active than "Y" but then "X" sees islam as a habit, when "Y" sees it as a spiritual act, and takes it seriously. * so alhamdulillah, i get that it depends on the person n how dadicated he or she is to islam, whether born muslim or a convert. jazakullahu khairan, [wlm] Sword Of Allah ;-) |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| Nomi |
| 06/10/03 at 23:41:05 |
| [wlm] and [slm] I dont think that there is anything wrong in practicing islam as a habbit [i](depends upon how u take the word "Habbit")[/i] Sun rises daily, stars shine every night, so can we demean them by saying ""as they are in a habbit [i](though controlled by Allah)[/i] so they arn't worth it" !! [slm] Asim Zafar |
| 06/10/03 at 23:42:57 |
| Nomi |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| Rameeza |
| 06/11/03 at 09:42:04 |
| [slm] I dont remember where I read it but, is there not a hadith that says not to make worship a habit ..? But do it with enthusiasm as if it is the first time etc? |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| Nomi |
| 06/11/03 at 10:03:54 |
| [wlm] and [slm] [quote] [i](depends upon how u take the word "Habbit") [/i] [/quote] and yes it'll be good if someone can paste that hadith here so that we all can benefit from it inshAllah. [slm] Asim Zafar. PS: i have something due on me [quote] fa saufa tara ezen kashafatil gubaru ...... um farasun tahta ridgelika um hemaru [/quote] Means : When the dust will settle and things will get cleared up then you'll know that whether someone was riding a horse or just an ass !! We can be flexible to a limit, we can "blend in" to a limit, we can compromise (may be) to a limit.. Sword of Allah: you've got a lovely screen name. |
| 06/11/03 at 10:13:04 |
| Nomi |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| UmmWafi |
| 06/12/03 at 03:11:12 |
| [slm] I am frankly very cautious about using the term "versus". The notion tends to suggest opposites in a state of competition. I think Muslims, be they reverts or non-reverts, are all geared towards one thing : Allah's Pleasure. A Muslim is judged by his intentions and actions. Let us not add another category to that. At the end of the day, it is Allah who is All Knowing. Wassalam. |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| Anonymous |
| 06/17/03 at 22:35:54 |
| assalam u alaikum, I know there are lot of reverts, alhamdulillah and i have nothing against them infact I welcome them to the great religion in my own small way i say "alhamdulillah" may the blessing and mercy of Allah continue to shower on you for having seen the light. I hope i dont invite anger from reverts but I guess standing on equal footing, that is same awakening with a born Muslim, I believe a born Muslim can be better than a new revert and Allah knows best. Well this is assuming the born Muslim got same enthusiasm in rediscovering his parents religion. There are personality traits acquired at birth that are hard to change and I believe someone raised on Islamic environment have the advantage. Like for example, a girl raised close to men, or have no inhibition in mixing with men will have hard time shaking that habbit off while a Muslim girl raised in closely guided islamic family home will carry that charater of being always aloof with guys forver.:-) well, i dont mean to say reverts cant adopt same modesty just a sample i wish to illustrate. Again, i said I salute the reverts for the chance of seeing the lights and i just hope and pray your parents and love ones follow your steps. |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| UmmZaid |
| 06/18/03 at 03:09:34 |
| [slm] I'd agree with the sister about cautiousness when using the term "vs." I know there are many people who believe that converts are "better than" raised Muslims. (And there are many who believe the opposite, though that archetype isn't as common... or vocalized as often). If we wish to rank people, why not say that those who make jihad to strengthen their 'iman, who rush to the fardh, sunnah, and nafila, who give in charity, who are kind to neighbors near and far, and who make much rememberance of their Lord are better than those who don't -- regardless of origin? I personally feel that once a convert is out of the stage where they are just learning to pray, learning the basics of the creed, then it is not such a good thing to keep classifying them as "converts." It's "Muslim" and that point, there isn't a need to divide them. (OTOH, I know there is benefit to be found in e-groups or masjid groups where converts can gather to learn and discuss issues they face...) Still, I think it sometimes makes people feel that they are to be permanently assigned to this mental ghetto -- the "convert." Not the Muslim. And I know people who feel like this constant reference to "Sister Fulana, our convert" or "Brother Fulan, who converted," it makes them feel like they are on display or being paraded around. clink clink (my two cents) |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| chiq |
| 06/18/03 at 07:00:41 |
| [slm] [quote]I think Muslims, be they reverts or non-reverts, are all geared towards one thing : Allah's Pleasure. A Muslim is judged by his intentions and actions. Let us not add another category to that. At the end of the day, it is Allah who is All Knowing. [/quote] Got it in one sis :) Labels...words...all come to dust at the end of the day, and we have only deeds to take to our Creator... Whats say we postpone a potentially divisive discussion (no offence meant br Sword of Allah) and promise to strive hard so that we can meet in Jannah and finish it there? No chance of argument then ;) Peace. Love y'all for the sake of Allah! :-* [wlm] ********************** [i]Alone I walked the ocean strand, A pearly shell was in my hand; I stooped and wrote upon the sand My name, the year, the day; As onward from the spot I passed, One lingering look behind I cast, A wave came rolling high and fast And washed my lines away. And so, I thought, 'twill quickly be With every mark on earth from me; A wave of dark oblivion's sea Will sweep across the place Where I have trod the sandy shore Of time, and been, to be no more,- Of me, my day, the name I bore, To leave no track nor trace. And yet, with Him who counts the sands, And holds the waters in His Hands, I know a lasting record stands Inscribed against my name, Of all this mortal part has wrought, Of all this thinking soul has thought, All from these fleeting moments cought, For glory or for shame. [/i] -- George Denison Prentice |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| muslimah853 |
| 06/18/03 at 09:29:56 |
| [slm] Let me add my two cents to the mix. I too, think this versus business is counterproductive, for all the reasons mentioned above, plus maybe a couple others. To Anonymous: I think that there are a couple of assumptions in your post that are not necessarily correct. I guess in some cases a born Muslim can be "better" than a convert, but believe it or not, sometimes it can be the opposite. One is not necessarily "better" in a particular trait because it comes easy to them. To take your example, no, I wasn't raised with separation between the sexes, and I did have to learn this, but two benefits come to mind. One, because I did the whole interaction thing, I *know* why it is better the Islamic way. I have experienced the way things are in all the glory first hand, and there is a certain amount of yaqin that goes with that. This doesn't make me better, or worse, I hope than anyone who hasn't had this experience, but it is a unique perspective that I am thankful for. Not thankful for the wrong things I have done in ignorance, but understanding that even in that state Allah has granted me mercy. Insha'allah, it is highly unlikely that I will ever have the "I wonder if the grass is greener" whisperings and such because I have seen the grass. It is not green. May Allah protect us all. I know Muslims who have struggled with drug addiction and overcome it, by Allah's Mercy, and they too *know* why khamr is forbidden. See, sometimes when you have seen the ugly, you appreciate the beautiful all that much more. The second point about all of that is that there is tremendous spiritual benefit in jihad with the nafs--provided that Allah blesses us to triumph in the end. Another thing I want to mention--how many of the illustrious sahaba were converts? Do we lump them in the same category of "well, born Muslims are better?" To each of us, Allah has given benefits and challenges. My challenges might not be your challenges, but they are challenges nonetheless and it is really silly IMO to be going around, "you're better, he's worse" because in the end, Allah will make that decision for us all on an individual level. Our job as individuals is to look at our own situations, along with its good and its tests, and become the best Muslims we need to be. Period. It might make some people feel good to assume that because they're born Muslim, that they're better off than some poor, ignorant convert, or vice versa, but we're all better off assuming the worst of our own states and working to improve upon that. None of us has any cause to rest on our laurels and be complacent, no matter how we got here. There is work to do. |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| Nomi |
| 06/18/03 at 10:48:00 |
| [slm] [quote] Another thing I want to mention--how many of the illustrious sahaba were converts? Do we lump them in the same category of "well, born Muslims are better?" [/quote] SubhanAllah, i was just about to post the same thing .... [quote] See, sometimes when you have seen the ugly, you appreciate the beautiful all that much more. [/quote] All of us may have met Muslims who say that we'll start following a teaching of islaam after some (particular) time, could it be that some Muslims may take it as "lets experience doing some transgressions so that we can say "been there done that" or feel like "when we'll see the ugly, we'll appreciate the beautiful (islamic teaching) more." ? [size=1][i]silly thought [/i][/size] But all of us are born with "saleem" nature, born Muslims! and Prophet Muhammad [saw] was never into any sin (Allah Forbid) so "appreciating more after experiencing bad" is not seen in His life but yes we do see it in the life of many Sahabah I think nothing can be generalized as there are all kinds of examples around us. Hence this varies person to person. [slm] Asim Zafar |
| 06/18/03 at 11:04:19 |
| Nomi |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| muslimah853 |
| 06/18/03 at 11:23:08 |
| [slm] No, I don't advocate that people transgress just to say that they've experienced the ugly, because let's face it, once one gets into transgressions, you may never find your way out. However, it is undeniably true that many people who have had certain experiences are able to derive benefit from them. I have derived benefit from my past, if only in the fact that it has made me more resolved not to *ever* go down certain roads ever again. And some of those lessons I had to learn the hard way, unfortunately. Human beings are like that sometimes. It didn't matter how much I knew it to be true "in theory", it took real hard experiences to finally knock some sense into me. I was listening to a lecture on CD the other day, and there was a scholar, insha'allah I'll have to go back and listen to it again to recall his name, but he was saying that transgressions which lead one to repentance are better than actions of obedience that lead one to arrogance. The point is not that sins are good, but sometimes being in a bad state leads one to want better. I know *many* people, both converts and born Muslims who have slipped into sin, who came out of the experience as stronger people. I know many people, may Allah guide them all, who are not Muslim and are committing all types of sins, who are crying out in pain for healing. As one brother who al hamdulillah, has recovered from drug addiction made a distinction between two types of people, people who follow religion because they are afraid of going to hell, and people who have, as he put it, already been to hell and don't want to go back. Bottom line: Don't go out looking for transgression--but if you are tried with it, then at least make it a learning experience. And your not having ever been tested with it doesn't make you any better than someone who has. |
| Re: <<<born muslims VS converted muslims>>> |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 06/18/03 at 18:30:44 |
| [slm] [quote]I hope i dont invite anger from reverts but I guess standing on equal footing, that is same awakening with a born Muslim, I believe a born Muslim can be better than a new revert and Allah knows best. Well this is assuming the born Muslim got same enthusiasm in rediscovering his parents religion. There are personality traits acquired at birth that are hard to change and I believe someone raised on Islamic environment have the advantage. Like for example, a girl raised close to men, or have no inhibition in mixing with men will have hard time shaking that habbit off while a Muslim girl raised in closely guided islamic family home will carry [/quote] You know I agree that there are personality traits acquired at birth and childhood that are hard to change. But you know what there are many nonmuslims who are actually raised in a better Islamic sort of enviornment then many Muslims. There are many examples, one I will point out are pious christians (my neighbors) who dont date, wear long dresses and have very good character. may Allah (swt) guide them. Another thing was our beloved Prophet [saw] whom always had very good character even before Islam... so you have to realize that there might be converts who have actually been raised in a more'islamic enviornment' then some 'born muslims' who havent been raised in an islamic enviornment. [quote]To each of us, Allah has given benefits and challenges.[/quote] exactly so if you think someone has an advantage by being raised in a Islamic enviornment then another one has advantage because he/she wasnt raised in an islamic enviornment so he/she might appreciate it more...and the first one might appreciate b/c he/she had good examples. Subhan'Allah I so agree with you sister Muslimah And Brother Nomi I understand your concern but anyone who does these things delibarately is showing that he/she does not have trust in Allah (swt) and only Allah (swt) knows everyones intentions and everyone will be accounted for. Hopefully one who does these sins deliberately just to see or learn something willl not die in that state. may Allah (swt) protect us all. Isnt there a quote that goes something like we dont live long enough to make all the mistakes ourselves, so lets learn from the mistakes of others. Alhumdulilah I have never used drugs but have seen the experiences of others not to mention that if Allah (swt) forbids these things then there is definately a good reason and I dont have to try it to find out. [quote]As one brother who al hamdulillah, has recovered from drug addiction made a distinction between two types of people, people who follow religion because they are afraid of going to hell, and people who have, as he put it, already been to hell and don't want to go back. [/quote] the feeling is so true...remember the common phrase I used to say/feel been to hell and bak....but you know what reality is that hell is thousand timz worse if not more...May Allah (swt) protect us all... and Alhumdulilah for Islam! Jazak Allah for the very nice poem chiq and Bro Sword of Allah looks like your topic brought out some good points :) |
| 06/18/03 at 18:32:07 |
| a_Silver_Rose |
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