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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| salvation in Islam |
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| manyquestions |
| 06/06/03 at 01:28:21 |
| In another thread Sofia posted some basic information about Islam. I would like to know more about several key points: 1. What is the basis for forgiveness in Islam? Does Allah just say "Forgiven" and that's it? In Christianity (my religion) forgiveness is based on the sacrifice of Jesus. In ancient Judaism forgiveness was based on animal sacrifices. The idea is atonement, or propitiation (appeasing the wrath of God against sin). Is there such an idea in Islam? 2. It doesn't sound like there is much assurance in Islam. Can one know FOR SURE that he is going to heaven/paradise? would be interested in what Muslims think and believe on these points. this is not an attempt to lure anyone into debate. I will not respond with any kind of "yes but ...." I just want to hear from Muslims on these topics. Thanks. |
| Re: salvation in Islam |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 06/06/03 at 02:06:42 |
| [slm] (peace be upon you) some information that might help, God willing Title of Fatwa Why Didn’t Prophet Muhammad Die for Muslims' Sins? Date of Fatwa 4/ May/ 2003 Date of Reply 4/ May/ 2003 Topic Of Fatwa Comparative Religions Question of Fatwa Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. Why didn’t Muhammad die for your sins? Jazakum Allah khayran. Name of Mufti Sheikh Ahmad Kutty Content of Reply Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh. In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger. Dear questioner, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we hope our efforts, which are purely for Allahs Sake, meet your expectations. First of all, it is to be made clear that the entire concept of someone dying for our sins is in utter contradiction with the Islamic view of the nature of man and God. In Islam, every individual is responsible for his/her own salvation. Everyone, male or female, can directly approach God without any intermediary of a prophet, saint or priest. Answering the question you raised, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states: "It seems to me that you are coming from a Christian background. In order for you to be able to understand the Islamic position, it is important to be clear about certain points. First, Islam, unlike Christianity, does not teach a concept of “original sin”. Adam’s sin was his and his alone; and, according to the Qur’an (for the Qur’anic narration of the story of Adam and Eve, see: the Qur’an: 2: 30-39; 7; 19; 17: 61; 18: 50; 20: 116-17, etc.), God forgave both Adam and Eve when they turned to God in repentance; accordingly they were once again restored to divine mercy. Hence there is no concept of Adam passing on to his progeny an original sin, and therefore no need for stipulating a redeemer for such sins. Second, as there is no original sin, every one is born into a state of fitrah, a state of natural innocence; sin is acquired later by our own conscious and willful actions. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Every child is born into a state of fitrah or natural state of innocence.” Third, Islam teaches that God is All-Compassionate and All-Merciful; He is not bound by the rule of a blood sacrifice in order to forgive His servants. To assume that God can forgive only by accepting a blood sacrifice and therefore to state that Jesus or Muhammad died for our sins is not acceptable in Islam. Allah says: “O My servants who have wronged against their souls! Do not despair of Allah’s mercy! For Allah forgives all sins; for He is indeed Forgiving, Compassionate. Turn to your Lord repentant, and submit to Him before the torment overtakes you when you shall not be helped.” (Az-Zumar: 53-54) Fourth, Islam teaches that every individual is responsible for his/her own salvation. Not Abraham, or Moses, or Jesus, or Muhammad can save us; they are only capable of saving themselves through God’s grace. In the words of the Qur’an: “Whoever commits a sin commits it only against himself. Allah is Knowing, Wise.” (An-Nisa': 111); “Allah does not charge a soul with more than it can bear. It shall be requited for whatever good and whatever it has done.” (Al-Baqarah: 286); “Each soul earns only on its own account, nor does any laden (soul) bear anothers load.” (Al-An`am: 164) “He who is rightly guided, it is for himself; and he who goes astray, it is to his own detriment. No soul can bear anothers burden.” (Al-Isra': 15) Fifth, everyone, male or female, can directly approach God without any intermediary of a prophet, saint or priest. God is closer to us than our own jugular veins. Almighty Allah says in the Qur’an: “We created man, and We know the promptings of his soul, and We are nearer to him than his own jugular vein.” (Qaf: 16) “When My servants ask you about Me, tell them I am nigh, ready to answer the prayer of the suppliant when he/she prays to Me; therefore let them respond to Me and believe in Me, that they may be rightly guided.” (Al-Baqarah: 186) So the entire concept of someone dying for our sins is inimical to the Islamic world-view or understanding of the natures of man and God. Islam beckons us all to respond to God’s message and receive His grace and salvation through faith, good works and leading a responsible moral and ethical life." Excerpted, with slight modifications, from: www.islam.ca You can also read: Is Man Born Sinful? Allah Almighty knows best. |
| 06/06/03 at 16:01:29 |
| a_Silver_Rose |
| Re: salvation in Islam |
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| Maliha |
| 06/06/03 at 09:33:58 |
| [slm] Mark I don't know who you are...but seriously one strong element of a sincere seeker is the manner in which they ask questions. I honestly don't like the tone in which you phrase your questions. You can't achieve much of an understanding if people are put on the defensive and statements like "It doesn't sound like there is much assurance in Islam" already sends a red flag up. The same question I had before comes up...what is your intention? If it's to gain a true understanding of Islam from Muslim perspective, then surely you can learn to ask your questions with good manners? So my advice is ask as many questions as you want, but do it with decency and etiquette. All the good things are free in life. Politeness, sincerity, *Respect*. So if you would like those things conferred to you, please have the commonsense to dish out the same. Now that said, I will attempt to answer your question.... [quote author=manyquestions link=board=lighthouse;num=1054873702;start=0#0 date=06/06/03 at 01:28:21] 1. What is the basis for forgiveness in Islam? Does Allah just say "Forgiven" and that's it? In Christianity (my religion) forgiveness is based on the sacrifice of Jesus. In ancient Judaism forgiveness was based on animal sacrifices. The idea is atonement, or propitiation (appeasing the wrath of God against sin). Is there such an idea in Islam? [/quote] This question can be answered with the knowledge of what is our main purpose of life on this earth. According to Islam, it is submission to the Will of God, our lives are centered around Worshipping God. What would entail one to seek forgiveness? Basically straying from your purpose. There are several types of sin: a) Leaving out essentials of worship, (i.e. Oppressing your own soul by not doing what you are required to do). For this type you have to immediately repent, and go back to doing righteous deeds. Righteous deeds eliminate sins. Charity is the biggest warder of evil. It cleanses our hearts, and burns up sins like dry wood is crackled by fire. b) Oppressing others by lying, cheating, stealing, backbiting, etc. -This type of sin requires you not only to ask forgiveness from God, but also to restore the rights of others. If you stole something take it back, if you lied ask for forgiveness etc. So the direct action that solidifies your forgiveness is to seek redress from the oppressed parties you have victimized. c) Associating Partners with God. Now this is the gravest of all three. God does not forgive one who associates anyone with Him. These associations can be minor like doing righteous deeds for the sake of other than Allah. Or major like thinking a being, a creation, is on the same level with the Creator, the One who gave Life to All, the Benefector, The Over powering. The gravity of this sin can only be lifted by true repentance, by learning what true Monotheism is, and fortressing this Knowledge with righteous deeds. By humbling yourself to God, and in this abjectness, humility and complete surrender to *Him* alone, lies the atonement and forgiveness. [quote] 2. It doesn't sound like there is much assurance in Islam. Can one know FOR SURE that he is going to heaven/paradise? [/quote] This statement is reflective of one's ignorance of God. I mean do you know *for sure* right now that you are going to heaven? Because Jesus died for your sins right? Does that really make sense to you? Someone dying centuries ago, so you can go to heaven. Where is the incentive to do good? If I was a christian with this type of thinking, I wouldn't worry about a thing. I mean as long as you "accept" Jesus you are set to go heaven right? I am sorry but this logic is flawed to begin with. There are several *major* points of contention between Chrisitian *theologies* and Muslim Theology. a)The original Sin: This does not exist in our realm of thought. For one Prophet Adam (AS) made a mistake, in a moment of heedlessness, but he and his wife *repented* and they both were forgiven. The rest of the stuff about Eve (Hawa) being cast out of heaven for her enticement and relegated to a life of punishment, labor pains etc. does not exist in our theology as well. (and they say Islam is the mysoginistic religion? ) Only one entity persuaded them to eat from the forbidden tree and that is Satan. The devil was banished from heaven too, but he refused to ask for forgiveness but instead asked to be granted respite till the day of Judgement so that he can recruit as many people as possible to languish in hell forever with him. Allah granted him that respite and warned that he will *not* be able to dissuade the Believers to stray from the path, for the hearts of the believers are sealed fortresses guarded by the Mighty forces of God. And the whispers of shaytaan (satan) are nothing but fleeting wisps of smoke that dissipate upon the remembrance of God. As Muslims we believe we are all born in a state of Fitrah, a state that inclines us to Truth and Righteousness. Many obstacles come our way as we grow up, society, parents, friends, etc. all are factors that either solidify our natural inclination to goodness, or take us away from that. Once we get to the point of being able to distinguish truth from falsehood, we have a *choice* and a will to implement that choice. As Muslims we know that if you have managed to inflict God's Wrath upon you, NOTHING can avail you...not Prophets, or Angels, or even your own parents. Only God's Mercy can avail you from His wrath... b) Prophet Isa (Jesus) (AS) humanity, death, and Purpose: Tied to the idea of the original sin is the need for salvation. The need to have someone "sacrifice" for us due to our inherent corruption. Islam eliminates this type of thinking. There are no intermediaries between you and Allah. A desperate belief that someone died for you to go to heaven, is not going to get you there either. Prophet Isa (AS) was a Prophet. What are the roles of Prophets? Prophets were sent from the beginning of time to spread the Message of Allah's Oneness, the Message of Submission. Prophets are endowed with capabilities of miracles, divine birth (Like Adam and Isa), Books, and other forces that surround them to facilitate their work on earth. In Islam we make no distinctions about Prophets. We respect them all equally and accept them all. Each Prophet was sent for a time, a people, and a purpose. The culmination of this Message sent to the last wave of Mankind was brought by Prophet Muhammad [saw]. In Islam we don't even believe that Prophet Isa was killed/crucifed. He was lifted to Heaven and we await his return, the return that will bring people back to true righteousness and true Worship of Allah. On the day of Judgement Allah will ask Prophet Isa if he told people to worship him instead of God, and prophet Isa will attest to his innocence. His message was simple. Obey and worship God. The complications of Christianity were nothing less than timely inventions created by the Roman church (yes, read about the history of Christianity and learn about the many counsels that made *decisions* to idolize the concept of the suffering of Jesus for all people to adore and worship). c) Jesus, the Father, The Ghost- The concept of the trinity is the most mind baffling one to say the least. The idea that God can have "a son" is sacreligious. The Creator, The One Who Needs to only say BE and It Becomes, can not be denigrated to the point of an animalistic behavior. With same logic of the immaculate conception of Jesus, what about Adam (AS). He was born with *NO* parents so does that make him another son of God too (I seek refuge in Allah from the fallacies of these illusions). It makes no sense. There is no ghosts, there is no son, there is nothing else but Allah. It is simple. A theology based on the simplicity of Oneness. It all starts that way, and humans find a way to integrate their flawed fallacies and create complexities that simply befuddle men's minds. So how do we *Know* we are going to heaven. It is simple. we don't. Our worship is based on the two wings of Fear and Hope. It is within the knowledge of my many faults that my ego is humiliated, abased in front of the Greatness and Majesty of Allah. It within the Hope for His Mercy and knowledge that for every baby step I make on this Journey Allah is running to me (metaphorically speaking). I will never know but I will continue striving, struggling, clawing my way out of the illusions of this world, till I find myself in the Abode of His Never Ending Grace, Mercy and Bliss. For aren't we all asleep till the day we die...that's when we wake up to the reality of our beings and our true stations in front of Allah. Don't wait till it's too late. Sis, Maliha :-) [wlm] |
| 06/06/03 at 09:46:26 |
| Maliha |
| Re: salvation in Islam |
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| Nabila |
| 06/06/03 at 12:44:09 |
| [slm] I'd like to add that there is no *guarantee* that any of us will go to Heaven. A hadith goes something like this - the Prophet [saw] said no one will go to heaven except for the mercy of Allah. Some one asked, even you O messenger? and he replied, ''Even me.'' Meaning that the rewards of heaven are so great that no matter how much good you do it will not be enough, but Allah, the Oft returning, Most Merciful, will still allow you to enter through mercy. - And even the messenger of Allah is still shown to be just like the rest of Gods creation, as he is subjected to this rule also. However, being a Muslim doesnt guarantee your place in heaven (unlike certain sects of Christianity which believe you have to convert three people to get a guaranteed place in heaven ?is that right?) - but in the final matter Allaah will be the judge. The Prophet [saw] told his companions of a Jewish that died and had himself cremated. However, Allaah resurrected him all the same, and asked him why he had himself cremated. The Jew replied it was out of fear of my Lord, and he was granted Paradise. In Christianity, *why* does God need to sacrfice his son to give mercy to people who will come centuries later? Why is there a concept of original sin, where basically innocents are being blamed for a certain crime which they did not commit? There is no assurance in Islam, that is why ''The intelligent person is one who constantly prepares for death.'' Meaning everyday in some way they enjoin good, and forbid evil, and protect the defenceless, and everyone around them will benefit from their presence. If your religion does guarantee you assurance of a place in heaven, then you should ask yourself- why? why me... what have I done so well that I deserve this? To *guarantee* your place in heaven, you converted three people, then what do u do? You may become lazy, arrogant, and not keep a constant vigilance about you for injustice which needs to be defeated. Repentance has an important place in Islam, and sincere repentance is always accepted by Allaah (swt). Repentance and then change. My two cents :) ma asalaamah and take care |
| Re: salvation in Islam |
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| manyquestions |
| 06/06/03 at 15:10:53 |
| I said I would not post but I am going to do so because again, there is much misunderstanding of Christianity. First, I know of no sect of Christianity that says heaven is assured by converting three people. Most Christians, if not all, understand that heaven can not be earned or merited. It is the grace of God that saves not any person’s good works. Second, many MANY Christians, myself included, do not believe in the doctrine of original sin. No passage of scripture explicitly teaches this doctrine. It is derived from some verses but many Christians believe that those who believe in original sin missed it and are not interpreting those verses correctly. Muslims say a lot about original sin as if every Christian on the planet has bought that entirely. Nope. Not so. I actively teach against it constantly. Yes, many Christians do believe it but many do not. Third, Christians believe there must be some atonement or propitiation for sin of some kind because otherwise God has reversed Himself without cause. God cannot say “Sin must be punished” one day and then on the next say to a sinner “Okay, you will not be punished - I forgive you.” Huh? Which time do we believe God? Does God lie to us? I believe God cannot lie. Sin must be punished. God’s law cannot be broken without consequence. How then can anyone be forgiven? God’s law means that forgiveness is not just something granted on the whim of an arbitrary and capricious God. God will not break His own law. Nor can forgiveness be earned by doing many good works (who could do enough good works any way?). So again, how can anyone be forgiven? Forgiveness is granted because the law of God that requires punishment for sin is met in Jesus who bears that punishment. Thus God does not double back on Himself. Sin is punished. But sinners can still be forgiven. This is the mercy and grace of God in concert with the justice and wrath of God. Fourth, yes there is real assurance in Christianity. I believe if I drop dead right now I’d certainly and without doubt go to heaven. Why? How can I say that? Because I’m so righteous and so good? Nope. Neither. But because I’ve been forgiven in Jesus Christ. Does that make me lazy and arrogant? Nope. Just really grateful. And I do believe that I could lose my relationship with Christ Jesus and then not be forgiven of my sins and thus be lost. So assurance doesn’t create a license for anyone to sin. I’ll probably not post again (unless someone really misrepresents Christianity again). I’ve gotten the info I sought about salvation and assurance in Islam. I marvel at Islam’s lack of assurance and that Muslims are okay with that but I guess that is the way it is. Thanks very much to all who posted. Mark |
| Re: salvation in Islam |
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| superFOB |
| 06/06/03 at 15:37:27 |
| [quote]I said I would not post but I am going to do so because again, there is much misunderstanding of Christianity.[/quote] Those of us, on this board, interested in understanding christianity please raise their hands. Nobody? Well, there is your que Mark. |
| 06/06/03 at 15:38:30 |
| superFOB |
| Re: salvation in Islam |
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| Yousef |
| 06/06/03 at 15:45:42 |
| :D :D :D [quote]What is the basis for forgiveness in Islam? Does Allah just say "Forgiven" and that's it?[/quote] “… and My Mercy embraces all things…” [al-A’raaf 7:156] “Allaah says: “Whoever knows that I am able to forgive all sins, I shall forgive him, and I shall not mind, so long as he does not associate anything with Me.’” (Reported by al-Tabaraani in al-Kabeer, and by al-Haakim; Saheeh al-Jaami’, 4330). “ ‘O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and put your hope in Me, I will forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, if your sins were to reach the clouds of the sky, and you were to ask me for forgiveness, I will forgive you and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, if you were to come to Me with sins nearly the size of the earth, and you were to meet Me not associating anything with Me, then I would bring you forgiveness nearly the size of (the earth).’” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi; Saheeh al-Jaami’, 4338). “The one who repents from his sin is like the one who did not sin in the first place.” (Reported by Ibn Maajah; Saheeh al-Jaami’, 3008). Stop and think about that phrase: “… Allaah will change their sins into good deeds…” [al-Furqaan 25:70]. This will explain to you the immense grace and favour of Allaah. “O My slaves, you err night and day, but I forgive all sins, so ask Me for forgiveness and I will forgive you.” (Reported by Muslim). It was reported that one of the righteous people was passing through the street when he saw an open door out of which came a boy who was crying and weeping, followed by his mother who was pushing him out. She shut the door in his face, and went back inside. The boy went a short distance away, and stood there, thinking, but he could find no other refuge than the house from which he had been expelled and no one else who would care for him as his mother would. Broken hearted, he went back, and found the door still locked. So he lay down on the doorstep and went to sleep, with the tear marks still streaking his face. A little while later, his mother came out. When she saw him in this state, she could not help herself. She embraced him, kissed him and started to weep, saying: “O my son, where did you go? Who would care for you except me? Didn’t I tell you not to disobey me and not to make me punish you, when Allaah has made me merciful and caring towards you?” Then she picked him up and went back inside. But the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us: “Allaah is more compassionate towards His slaves than this mother towards her child.” (Reported by Muslim). |
| NS |
| 06/06/03 at 15:48:25 |
| Yousef |
| Re: salvation in Islam |
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| Yousef |
| 06/06/03 at 15:55:50 |
| [quote] In Christianity (my religion) forgiveness is based on the sacrifice of Jesus.[/quote]...Thats your problem. [quote] In ancient Judaism forgiveness was based on animal sacrifices. The idea is atonement, or propitiation (appeasing the wrath of God against sin). [/quote] :D :D :D you are wrong.. First of all, the sin offering was intended only for unintentional sins, and served as a means of motivating individuals to true repentance. Numerous passages, including Hosea 14, tell us that prayers take the place of sacrifices. "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, and a broken and contrite heart" (Psalm 51:17) and "I desire kindness and not sacrifices, the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." (Hosea 6:6) There isn't one instance in the prophetic books where the Jewish people are told that in order to get right with God they need to get covered by the blood. If that's the case, what is the fundamental teaching of the Tanach on the issue of atonement? What theme is reiterated time and again by the holy prophets in the Jewish Bible? "That every man will turn from his evil way, then I will forgive their iniquity and their sin." (Jeremiah 36:3). "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord, and He will have compassion on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon." (Isaiah 55:7). "I acknowledged my sin to You, and my iniquity I did not hide; I said, `I will confess my transgressions to the Lord', and You did forgive the guilt of my sin." (Psalm 32:5). "And if My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray, and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (II Chronicles 7:14). "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has practiced he shall live...When a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life...Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you (Ezekiel 18:21- 22,27,30). "By lovingkindness and truth iniquity is atoned for..." (Proverbs 16:6). "If you return to God you will be restored; if you remove unrighteousness far from your tent...then you will delight in God..." (Job 22:23-27). "Depart from evil, and do good, so you will abide forever." (Psalm 37:27, cf. Ezekiel 33, Zechariah 1:3, Jeremiah 26:13). One of the main teachings of the prophets was to chide Jewish people who thought that sacrifices were the essential element of atonement: "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me? says the Lord. I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed cattle. And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs, or goats...Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, Learn to do good; seek justice, reprove the ruthless, defend the orphan, plead for the widow. Come let us reason together says the Lord, `Though your sins are as scarlet, they will be white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they will be like wool, if you consent and obey..." (Isaiah 1:11-18). "The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord." (Proverbs 15:8). "To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice." (Proverbs 21:3). "For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, and in the knowledge of G-d rather than burnt offerings." (Hoseah 6:6). "Has the Lord as great a delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken more than the fat of rams." (I Samuel 15:22). "With what shall I come to the Lord, and bow myself before the God on high? Shall I come to Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? Does the Lord take delight in thousands of rams, in ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I present my firstborn for my rebellious acts, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your G-d." (Micah 6:6-8,cf. Amos 5:22- 24, Jeremiah 7, Psalm 69:31-32). |
| NS |
| 06/06/03 at 15:57:13 |
| Yousef |
| Re: salvation in Islam |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 06/06/03 at 15:56:47 |
| [slm] oooooops sorry Mark. Plz forgive me for a little part of the answer compared Christianity to Islam. Please if you can try your best to ignore that part and just pay attention to the part where it explains about Islam. I think it is not necessary to compare Christianity to give you the answers for Islam so lets try to refrain from that. He is explaining christinaity because if you read the above posts their were points on christianity brought out and also because some raised questions. Lets not give him reason to have to explain Christianity to us and just focus on Islam, God-Willing. [quote]First, I know of no sect of Christianity that says heaven is assured by converting three people. Most Christians, if not all, understand that heaven can not be earned or merited. It is the grace of God that saves not any persons good works.[/quote] I believe she was just giving an example to you, she never said there is such thing in Chrisitianity. ok well In Islam it is also the Grace of God. We cannot acheive salvation by faith alone, but also by good works, for God is the most Just. [quote]Third, Christians believe there must be some atonement or propitiation for sin of some kind because otherwise God has reversed Himself without cause. God cannot say “Sin must be punished” one day and then on the next say to a sinner “Okay, you will not be punished - I forgive you.” Huh? Which time do we believe God? Does God lie to us? I believe God cannot lie. Sin must be punished. Gods law cannot be broken without consequence. How then can anyone be forgiven? [/quote] hmm I dont think anyone said that one day God will say this and next day another thing. If we commit a sin there are rules accordingly on how we are too be punished for it, and if we sincerely repent then God will forgive us and save us from the hell fire in the afterlife. We are only human and that means we are not perfect and make mistakes. If sincerely realize that what we did is wrong and beg for Gods forgiveness and also try our best not to do it again.(and since he is All Knowing only He knows if a person is sincere or not) God the Most Merciful has promised us forgiveness. [quote]Fourth, yes there is real assurance in Christianity. I believe if I drop dead right now Id certainly and without doubt go to heaven. Why? How can I say that? Because Im so righteous and so good? Nope. Neither. But because I’ve been forgiven in Jesus Christ. Does that make me lazy and arrogant? Nope. Just really grateful. And I do believe that I could lose my relationship with Christ Jesus and then not be forgiven of my sins and thus be lost. So assurance doesnt create a license for anyone to sin[/quote] Mark in Islam there is justice. hmm well lets say you dont lose your license of relationship but just committ evil all the time, then what? You dont think that people can abuse the fact that oh well we really believe that 'Jesus (peace be upon him) is our savior (and they do) and has guarantteed us paradise so it doesnt matter what we do and continue to hurt other people. [quote]I’ve gotten the info I sought about salvation and assurance in Islam. I marvel at Islam’s lack of assurance and that Muslims are okay with that but I guess that is the way it is. Thanks very much to all who posted. [/quote] well Mark we are not only 'ok' with that but very happy for that. This gives us encouragement to strive to do good deeds throughout life and remember that only because Allah (swt) we have what we have. Glory be to Allah (swt) who created us all to worship only HIm. I also want to just tell you that millions of people covert to Islam every year and are very happy with it. The root word of Islam means peace. And not suprisingly these people say they have found peace after finding Islam. I am Muslim and I cant tell you how grateful I am to Allah (swt) for giving us the religion of Islam. We recieve guidance not from man (who is not perfect) but from Almighty God who is PERFECT. I realize that you do not know much about Islam (as you are asking these questions) so please until you learn about it throughly from authentic sources, refrain from judging it, as many people are very happy to have Islam. I would encourage you to search through the almanar lighthouse for more information and also browse the websites that I have gave. To read about the many converts go to http://www.thetruereligion.org/converts.htm A Muslim Sister ps I hope you do not mind giving you more info than you asked for... pss To check out more information on Salvation in Islam go to http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/Salvation/ |
| 06/08/03 at 22:38:14 |
| a_Silver_Rose |
| Re: salvation in Islam |
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| Yousef |
| 06/06/03 at 16:05:08 |
| [quote]The idea is atonement, or propitiation (appeasing the wrath of God against sin). Is there such an idea in Islam? [/quote] Yes, the concept is present. But with no blood, i.e, fasting, giving charity, freeing a slave. [quote]It doesn't sound like there is much assurance in Islam. Can one know FOR SURE that he is going to heaven/paradise? [/quote] A Muslim doesnt have the slighest assurance of paradise, however he/she does have guarantee. There follows a brief summary of the Islamic view regarding a guarantee of one’s destiny. Islam offers a guarantee to every sincere Muslim who obeys Allaah and remains in this state of devotion until he dies, that he will definitely enter Paradise. Allaah says in the Qur’aan (interpretation of the meanings): “But those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, We shall admit them to the Gardens under which rivers flow (i.e., in Paradise), to dwell therein forever. Allaah’s promise is the truth, and whose words can be truer than those of Allaah? (Of course, none).” [al-Nisa’ 4:122] “Allaah has promised those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, that for them there is forgiveness and a great reward (i.e., Paradise).” [al-Maa’idah 5:9] “(They will enter) ‘Adn (Eden) Paradise (everlasting Gardens), which the Most Beneficent (Allaah) has promised to His servants in the unseen: verily, His promise must come to pass.” [Maryam 19:61] “Say: ‘Is that (torment) better, or the Paradise of Eternity promised to the muttaqeen (pious and righteous persons)? It will be theirs as a reward and final destination.” [al-Furqaan 25:15] “But those who fear Allaah and keep their duty to their Lord (Allaah), for them are built lofty rooms, one above another, under which rivers flow (i.e., Paradise). (This is) the Promise of Allaah, and Allaah does not fail in (His) promise.” [al-Zumar 39:20] Islam also guarantees the disbeliever who ignores the commands of Allaah that he will definitely enter Hell. Allaah says (interpretation of the meanings): “Allaah has promised the hypocrites, men and women, and the disbelievers, the Fire of Hell, therein shall they abide. It will suffice them. Allaah has cursed them and for them is the lasting torment.” [al-Tawbah 9:68] “But those who disbelieve, for them will be the Fire of Hell. Neither will it have a complete killing effect on them so that they die, nor shall its torment be lightened for them. Thus do We requite every disbeliever!” [Faatir 35:36] Allaah will say to the disbelievers on the Day of Judgement (interpretation of the meaning): “This is Hell which you were promised! Burn therein this Day, for that you used to disbelieve!” [Yaa-Seen 36:63-64] Allaah will not go back on His promise to either the believers or the disbelievers. He describes how both of them will be at the end of the Day of Judgement (interpretation of the meaning): “And the dwellers of Paradise will call out to the dwellers of the Fire (saying): ‘We have indeed found true what our Lord had promised us; have you also found true, what your Lord promised (warnings, etc.)?’ They shall say, ‘Yes.’ Then a crier will proclaim between them: ‘The Curse of Allaah is on the zaalimeen (polytheists and wrongdoers, etc.).” [al-A’raaf 7:44] Everyone who believes and does righteous deeds, and dies in this state, will definitely enter Paradise. Everyone who disbelieves and does evil deeds, and dies in this state, will definitely enter Hell. One of the great guiding principles of Islam is that the believer should tread a path between fear and hope. He should not take it for granted that he will enter Paradise, because this will make him complacent, and he does not know in what state he will die. Nor should he assume that he is going to Hell, because this is despairing of the mercy of Allaah, which is forbidden. So the believer does righteous deeds, and hopes that Allaah will reward him for them, and he avoids evil deeds out of fear of the punishment of Allaah. If he commits a sin, he repents in order to gain forgiveness and protect himself from the punishment of Hell. Allaah forgives all sins and accepts the repentance of those who repent. If a believer fears that the good deeds he has sent on before him are not enough, as you suggest, then he will increase his efforts, in fear and hope. No matter how many righteous deeds he has sent on before him, he cannot rely on them and take them for granted, or else he will be doomed. He keeps striving and hoping for reward, and at the same time he fears lest his deeds be contaminated with any element of showing off, self-admiration, or anything that will lead to them being rejected by Allaah. Allaah describes the believers (interpretation of the meaning): “… those who give that (their charity) which they give (and also do other good deeds) with their hearts full of fear (whether their alms and charity, etc.) have been accepted or not), because they are sure to return to their Lord (for reckoning).” [al-Mu’minoon 23:60] So the believer keeps on striving, fearing and hoping, until he meets his Lord, believing in Tawheed (Divine Unity) and doing righteous deeds, and earns the pleasure of his Lord and Paradise. If you think about the matter, you will realize that these are the right motives for action, and that righteousness cannot be achieved in this life in any other way. |
| Re: salvation in Islam |
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| Yousef |
| 06/06/03 at 16:14:06 |
| Concerning Faith and work, and their relationship to salvation! Can you enlighten us. I will give you the verses. Mt.12:37 "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Mt.16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works." Mt.19:17 "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." Lk.10:26-28 "He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." Jn.5:29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." Rom.2:6, 13 "Who 'will render to each one according to his deeds'. For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified." 2 Cor.5:10 "For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." 2 Cor.11:15 "Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." Jas.2:14 "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?" Jas.2:17 "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." Jas.2:21-25 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." 1 Pet.1:17 "The Father, who without pariality judges according to each one's work." Let me ask you now, if someone accepts Jesus as their personal saviour, who died for all their sins, was raised on the third day. You know the rest, Mr. Mark And yet he/she for example, fornicates. Did he/she just lose their salvation? For that matter can a Christian lose salvation? If you tell me, those are not 'true' Christians, the ones who fornicate? Then can I ask you, who are the 'True-Christian'. Have a nice day |
| Re: salvation in Islam |
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| Nabila |
| 06/06/03 at 17:04:07 |
| [slm] Thanks to Mark for clearing up my confusion about the sects of Christianity. Most of my information is off the net, so I need you guys to tell me when I get it right or wrong. :) Again, it is this lack of assurance which I find so appealing. It keeps people humble and modest, and means that even those that don't believe in the 'right' god or religion, will be judged by Allaah for who they really are, that it is not your place to judge another individual and say, because you dont believe in exactly what I believe in, you will burn in hell forever and so on. In many faiths its an attitude of ''its my way or the highway'' which I dont think is right. ma asalaamah and take care |
| Re: salvation in Islam |
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| bhaloo |
| 06/07/03 at 02:46:17 |
| [slm] [quote author=Mystic link=board=lighthouse;num=1054873702;start=0#2 date=06/06/03 at 09:33:58] [slm] Mark I don't know who you are...but seriously one strong element of a sincere seeker is the manner in which they ask questions. I honestly don't like the tone in which you phrase your questions. You can't achieve much of an understanding if people are put on the defensive and statements like "It doesn't sound like there is much assurance in Islam" already sends a red flag up. The same question I had before comes up...what is your intention? If it's to gain a true understanding of Islam from Muslim perspective, then surely you can learn to ask your questions with good manners? So my advice is ask as many questions as you want, but do it with decency and etiquette. All the good things are free in life. Politeness, sincerity, *Respect*. So if you would like those things conferred to you, please have the commonsense to dish out the same. [/quote] I completely agree, how very true. I'm glad someone said it!!!!!! |
| Re: salvation in Islam |
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| Nomi |
| 06/07/03 at 18:08:33 |
| [slm] How about bringing in these ayahs to our discussion as well Al-Fath, verse 28 He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion. And Allah sufficeth as a witness. ======== As-Saff, verse 9 He it is Who hath sent His Messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He make it conqueror of all religion however much idolaters may be averse. ======== Al-Baqarah, verse 135 And they say: Be jews or Christians, then ye will be rightly guided. Say (unto them O Muhammad): Nay, but (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters ======== Al-Imran, Verse 85 And whose seeketh as religion other than the surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the hereafter ======== Al-Maedah, verse 3 This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you a religion Al-Islam whoso is forced by hunger, not by will, to sin: (for him) Lo! Allah is forgiving, Merciful. ======== Al Maedah, verse 54 O ye who believe! whoso of you becometh a renegade from his religion, (know that in his stead) Allah will bring a peope who He loveth and who love him, hunble towards believers, stern towards disbelievers, striving in the way of Allah and fearing not the blame of any harmer, Such is the grace of Allah which he giveth unto whom He will. Allah is all Embracing, All Knowing. ========= Al-Anbia`, verse 92 LO! this, your religion, is the only true religion, and i am your Lord, so worship Me. ========= Al-Mu`minuun, verse 52 And LO! this your religion, is the only true religion, and i am your Lord, so keep your duty unto Me. ========= Ash-Shu`ra, verse 21 Or have the partners (of Allah) who have made lawful for them in religion that which Allah allowed not? And but for a decisive word (gone forth already), it would have been judged between them. Lo! for wrong doers is a painful doom. [slm] |
| 06/07/03 at 18:33:40 |
| Nomi |
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