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How Much Proof Do you want?

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How Much Proof Do you want?
Kathy
06/21/03 at 20:01:52
[slm]

There was a show on Hymen Restructuring (restoration) last night with heavy emphasis on Muslim Women.

Question for the guys...

How much proof do you want, if your criteria is a virgin? Do you want/need a note from a Ob/Gyn?
06/21/03 at 20:03:51
Kathy
Re: How Much Proof Do you want?
BroHanif
06/21/03 at 20:22:58
salaams,

Depends upon the guy doesn't it, could it be that the 'pot is calling the kettle black' ?.  I think it only matters on the first marrige then after that its kinda oh well... . And I also think if you decide to take the route of the gyncl then it can lead to perhaps less trust in the marrige. If your wife to be says I'm pure then take her word, no need to pursue it further. Trust is as we know the most improtant aspect in a relationship.

Salaams

Hanif
Re: How Much Proof Do you want?
nouha
06/21/03 at 23:27:13
[slm]

kathy,..............when did this show even play??? i never heard of it...

my personal opinion is that if u cant find out for a guy and is able to keep his business to his own the girl should be given the same oppurtunity...

hanif ..u have good points about trust and marriage.....

wasalam
nouha:)
Re: How Much Proof Do you want?
Emerald
06/21/03 at 23:58:33
I agree with Nouha 200%!

AND.....we shouldn't be uncovering possible secrets for which Allah (swt) has concealed for the person unless we wish to have some of our own mistakes revealed.

Emerald
Re: How Much Proof Do you want?
Yousef
06/22/03 at 00:58:31
Since knowing the fact that if female is not a virgin might ward off the [i]future[/i] husband. Then in my view the family has to inform the brother that she is not a virgin, some might argue that you are not concealing the sin, but what I'm saying is, just tell the brother that she is not a virgin and not say anything more. She could have been raped for example.  

Ofcourse very few families would go with such thing, and so they try to conceal it by what I would consider deceit

And so the only way to make sure that she is a virgin, and this is due to ignorance is to see blood, weather before the marriage as silverose said, by letting the future-mother in law check her out, or by waiting till the actually intercourse. And many many many marriages ended up in disasters becuase of this ignorance.

So to stop such ignorance you have to spread the fact that the hymen has nothign to do with a female being a virgin or not !!!

And the emphasis of the show on [i]Muslim[/i] women, is more because this practice is more common among Arabs. So its rather Arab women, but you know the media..  ::)

The roots of the problem extent pretty far...
06/22/03 at 01:01:51
Yousef
Re: How Much Proof Do you want?
Zila
06/22/03 at 01:02:33

Assalamualaikum

Sounds like an interesting program didn't catch it though.. Anywayz jud to give my 2 cents worth.. I use to think like you silverrose... abt the unfair bit.. However I was reminded that being chaste, avoiding zina is part of gaining Allah's pleasure.. And we shouldn't  be looking for recognition or appreciation from others but Allah hence making the unfairness feeling unnecessary. May Allah reward you silverrose for your perseverance. Hang in there ;)

As for the unhappiness that guys wuld encounter should they know, I believe this wuld be a test of their faith. If the sister is a gud practising muslim now does it matter wats her past?(jahiliya era)  If it does maybe the brother should check whether that concerns his deen or juz somthg that he needs to feed his ego..


Wallahualam :-)
Re: How Much Proof Do you want?
faisalsb
06/22/03 at 02:00:53
[slm]

I am agreed with brother Hanif if it's really matter to the guy then he must believe what ever he is told about the issue but having medical checkup is not appropriate.

Well we are supposed to hide our sins but at the same time we are not supposed to lie also. So I think if we are asked such a question then we must be honest if we can't be then we can refuse to answer the question but hiding things by lieing and misleading statements is not going to take us anywhere since trust is the base of any long lasting relationship.

Sister silverose has raised good point but how do we know the brothers who those non virgin sisters have married are themselves virgin? If a sister can be involved in such a sin although she looks chaste, prays and wear hijab then who knows those brothers might have the same status although they have long beards, prays regularly and look religious. I myself believe very much in the verse of Quran that "For bad women there are bad men and for good women there are good men". The thing which looks odd outwardly there might be some great wisdom behind that.
Re: How Much Proof Do you want?
Emerald
06/22/03 at 02:07:50
Yousef, I don't think that if they took the option of simply telling the brother she's not a virgin and not going into details would make it any better. The thing is there will always be a voice in the back of his head making the issue a big thing. What if the tables were turned? There's no way in telling if the brother is a virgin or not. Yet he doesn't get the 3rd degree about his chastity. What any person should do when planning to get married is not assume that their mate is chaste but rather that they're only human and it's a huge possibilty they may not be -- especially in this country and to just leave it at that.
I think the whole idea of checking a woman for blood after her wedding night is absolutley degrading and I feel deep in my heart that the Prophet (pbuh) wouldn't allow it. I still stick to my belief that such secrets should not be revealed.
Oh and by the way, from what I know some girls don't even have a hymen. They're born without one. And yes, you can actually lose it by certain strenuous activities like riding a bike or horse, or even falling.

Silverrose -
 Yeah you're right. It is so unfair. And I know what you mean because I've seen similar situations but you know that's why days of courtship before marraige are so important. And why salatul istakhara is SO important. Plus
I think you can tell a chaste girl from one that isn't right away. They have haya (modesty). And it's the same with the guys. Also, I think Allah (swt) gives those with true eman sort of a sixth sense when it comes to stuff like this. And whatever happens it's because Allah (swt) willed it and we have to accept it and believe a greater good will come of it. Nobody knows when Allah (swt) will guide those who have strayed or by who as their vehicle to their hidayah.
Re: How Much Proof Do you want?
Nomi
06/22/03 at 02:23:29
[slm]

I think if the girl isn't a virgin because she broke rules BUT is a practicing Muslim now then there shouldn't be any problem marrying her. Having said that (i think) the questions asked b4 marriage would be a lil more in number!!!

And yes, as bro Hanif said, one should take her word for whether she is a virgin or not but few details should be there

[slm]
Asim Zafar
[i]
PS: A friend of mine was in all sort of sin but his fiancee was a very very pious girl (she for herself and family restrictions!). Someone told that sister's mom that my friend isn't a good guy but she dint care and said that since my daughter is pious so she'll get a pious man. To the amazement of many, my friend became a really practicing Muslim few months b4 his marriage and is going gr8 guns (persistent) mashAllah.. what do u say to that... pious girl with no regrets about her past and the guy ?!! [/i]
06/22/03 at 02:47:07
Nomi
Re: How Much Proof Do you want?
muahmed
06/22/03 at 03:01:53
[slm] ;-)

Some men in their foolish pride want to be the first in everything, the first love, the first friend, the first husband. What is more important for me is to be the last in everything. The last and lasting love, the last husband.

For a sister who has been unchaste in the past and has repented, I am sure she can easily find many brothers who were not practicing Muslims a few years earlier either.  That would probably be best for they would both not want to go too deep into each others past but rather work on their deen togather. I think if a sister tells that she was not a practising Muslim until such and such time, then that should be enough without having to go into specifics.

However, ideally we (men) should be able to control our ego and not be affected if a girl was unchaste before she started practicing islam for Allah is merciful to those who are merciful and if we forgive the faults of our fellow Muslims maybe He will forgive our faults.
06/22/03 at 03:06:43
muahmed
Re: How Much Proof Do you want?
Nomi
06/22/03 at 09:51:30

[center][size=3] Spouse Imports !![/size][/center]

[slm]

May sound funny but it happens all the time. Becomming a practicing muslim after a patch of being lost is one thing but thats not the case with many Muslims in the west, so many parents chose to mary their kids with someone from their home country.

Many examples can be quoted and you ppl may have come across many yourselves too. I think ppl do this because after seeing weird things around them like how lost Muslim youth is in the west they are somewhat afraid !!!

Allah knows best
[slm]
Asim Zafar
Re: How Much Proof Do you want?
nouha
06/22/03 at 13:08:51
[slm]

Emerald - u bring a very good point about some girls not even having hymens.... ppl tend to overlook this and go straight to pointing fingers....

but i dont think u can tell whether a person is chaste or not just by looking at them.... subhanalah they may have haya but u NEVER know what goes on behind closed doors... non married niqabis have had abortions... this is reality and it exists.....

may Allah(SWT) protect us ameen..

wasalam
nouha:)
Re: How Much Proof Do you want?
theOriginal
06/23/03 at 04:31:28
[slm]

A girl's hymen can break for many reasons -- "reasons that could be substantiated medically such as heavy flows during menstruation, illness, falling, jumping excessively, horse-riding, certain sporting activities, ageing, etc."

...what if she really is a virgin, but medically she cannot prove it.  

Also, I am a little bit concerned about brother Yusuf's statement about the family informing the brother that their daughter/sister is not a virgin...

Sorry....what?  How would they know?  Unless she's been married before, but then of course, the guy would know that already, no?

And I am really confused....people actually ASK this question?  "Gee...I was wondering if you would marry me...oh and by the way....are you a virgin?"  

Ameen, sis nouha...that would be the duaa I would make, too.

Wasalaam.


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