A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| Kathy |
| 07/06/03 at 22:50:52 |
| [slm] Yah, Yah, Yah.... I know alot of the guys get "miffed" when I write that...but I have had enough experiences to stand strong on this soap box. Here is a new one.... A Muslimah just found out, after three years of marriage and two children, that her husband is in the States illegally. They (INS) just took him in. She is now a single mom. A woman who speaks no english and depended on her husband for everything outside of the house. No one knew, not even her father.... Just another reason to "Show me the Papers." |
| Re: "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 07/07/03 at 01:39:57 |
| [slm] gosh sis Kathy..why do they do this??? Im hearing some wild stuff such as men hiding another wife in another country ect.. why do they do this and wht can we do about this??? one thing I think is important is for the woman to be strong and not give in so easily or take action if she finds something like this out. And more importantly you are right show the papers. If a man is offended by this then he should think of his own sister (although a man should think of all the woman as his sisters) , how would he feel if his sister got stuck with some man like that... you may be a honorable, trustworthy man but how are we suppose to know that! there ARE many men who lie. We CAN NOT read minds and know who is lying and who is not. May Allah (Swt) protect and guide us all |
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| faisalsb |
| 07/07/03 at 02:07:09 |
| [slm] Well I think the best way to avoid cheating is background check. Sister's family must know the brother's reputation at his home town, work and family. The middle man/woman can play better role over here if he/she is the one who both families know well then we can assume it would be safe. But I don't think checking degrees, diplomas and immigration papers is the solution of the problem since all those documents might be fack and fabricated. |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 07/07/03 at 02:21:03 |
| [slm] yes thats true, it is important to meet his family and have background check. yes I think you are right, alot of times this is enough and then you dont need the extra papers ect... |
| Re: "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| missy |
| 07/07/03 at 11:28:38 |
| [slm] I'm engaged with a man and he is waiting to get his visa to stay here to work. And this kind of thing crosses my mind every once in a while. I've asked him about what kind of visa he's here in the US with and what one he's trying to get, because I really have no idea what all is involved with this kind of stuff, and he doesn't like it when I ask him about it, he thinks I don't trust him. I do trust him, but it's true, we can't read other peoples minds to know who lies to us and who doesn't, we can only go by what we know of that person. I think now I'll have to ask to see some of these papers or the visa he has now. I wouldn't have thought of it before, I'm glad I read the post, Kathy, that's really sad what happened to that woman though. It makes me so mad that men would do things like this. And I know, it's not all men. |
| Re: "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| lucid9 |
| 07/07/03 at 12:36:24 |
| [slm] My 18 year old cousin got married to the son of her mom's best friend. The man then split after getting his green card. But this was also after she had had a baby. She is now a very young single mother. So, even if you know the family ahead of time, it doesn't seem to be much of a guarantee. Sometimes I wonder to myself, why does it seem like muslim guys are jerks? But, in the end, I think, parents are usually to blame. In this case, my cousin's parents knew the parents of the boy, but not the boy. They niavely thought that the boy was humble and soft spoken person like his parents. Boy were they wrong. They simply didn't bother to find out. This brings up a much. much bigger problem. Muslim parents tend to be rather extremely niave and in many instances -- outright neligent. Just because the parents are very nice, religious and well manered, they automatically assume that the son is as well. Another cousin (but more distant) got engaged in June. Her parents knew the boy's parents from a long time back and they seemed to be pretty nice people. So they effectively married her off thinking the parents qualities must be reflected in the son. They did this without hardly knowing anything about the boy apart from the fact that he makes enough money and has his own house. They weren't even sure wether the boy prayed or not. And this was despite the fact that the girls parents are extremely religious. (The boys parents are also religious). They made me come to their house and ask the boy and his parents lots of questions, just because they were too embarrassed to ask anything themselves. Can you imagine! Why me? Why not them? I hope everything goes well, but the possibilities for diasaster is much higher than it should be. I can tell you many more stories like this, and it often makes me wonder why so many very well meaning and religious muslim families devalue their daughters like this. |
| 07/07/03 at 12:38:36 |
| lucid9 |
| Re: "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 07/07/03 at 16:01:31 |
| [slm] ok since I can comment here I will :) My brother you are a male and you are Muslim , does this mean you are a jerk! I completely agree with you that there are many 'Muslim' men who are jerks but at the same time there are many nonmuslim men who are complete jerks! And the stuff that you are talking about happens alot in hindu culture also. And since this is happening in 'religious' families I guess this is showing that they are truly not 'religious' after all huh? I think the big problem lately is the male gender :D And its the females who are letting them get away with all of this also. There needs to be more books and men need to be more educated and taught on how to treat their wives and woman need to have more self confidence. |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 07/07/03 at 16:26:02 |
| [quote]Yes. [/quote] oh ofcourse and your whole family thinks so too right ;) sister Missy Im glad you read this. I hope to God that you are strict with him. Sometimes this is a good test.. he needs to understand how important this is to you and it is right you cannot read his mind. If you are marrying the man then ofcourse you need to know these things. Comeon Brothers you should be a model of security. Will it really hurt you to show her so her mind can be secure? be strong your sis |
| 07/07/03 at 19:10:34 |
| a_Silver_Rose |
| Re: "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| paula |
| 07/07/03 at 19:32:19 |
| [slm][size=2][font=Verdana][color=Navy] [quote]gosh sis Kathy..why do they do this ???[/quote] [quote]If a man is offended by this then he should think of his own sister (although a man should think of all the woman as his sisters)[/quote] [quote]there ARE many men who lie. We CAN NOT read minds and know who is lying and who is not.[/quote] [quote]and he doesn't like it when I ask him about it, he thinks I don't trust him.[/quote] [quote]My 18 year old cousin got married to the son of her mom's best friend. The man then split after getting his green card. But this was also after she had had a baby. She is now a very young single mother. So, even if you know the family ahead of time, it doesn't seem to be much of a guarantee.[/quote] [quote]I think the big problem lately is the male gender :D And its the females who are letting them get away with all of this also. There needs to be more books and men need to be more educated and taught on how to treat their wives and woman need to have more self confidence. [/quote] You know it might be a little over estimation to say that each one of us, if we thought about it knows someone who has experienced such a situation. Whether it is a family member, a closer friend, an acquaintance, or an acquaintance of an acquaintance. But I think we would all whole-heartedly agree that it is definitely common enough to be a serious issue. When women cannot trust men/brothers (of faith)/ & husbands, this creates such a large problem in our Ummah. Because of men being the dominate per the creation aspect, & ordainment by Allah (swt) & his commanded legislation. So, I was curious about the brothers/male side of this issue. What causes so many men to do this? And what are the brother’s ideas as a step or means to protect oneself without overstepping the boundaries commanded by Allah (swt)? I agree with the ladies here, if our ummah as a whole is showing that we cannot trust anymore, even the professed Muslim community. Then yes, our truly faithful Muslim men/brothers should figure into the progressed equation. That part of compassion & responsibility is appreciating that the sisters are holding a lot more fear & weight of this world today. It’s such a hard balance, to have that all incorporated faith in Allah(swt) to ordain. Yet keeping the responsibility to Allah(swt) himself as a female Muslim by acting responsibly in our dealings. Men are the stronger/ the dominate, as ordained by Allah (swt). Yet, they are ever increasing in the lack of responsibility as the head of the Ummah. As always, I personally fear (if that’s the proper expression) that a woman/sister taking a stronger stance does have its limits. Or the natural order may become ever more imbalanced. That our women/sisters will suffer two fold. The weight of the Ummah & the wrath of Allah (swt). (just an expression of my lack of vision... submission)((so please enlighten us some if you can)) What is the male perspective on the equation? Why do so many men/brothers do this? And how can sisters best protect themselves? Especially without going against their natural grain & becoming too dominate in their dealings. [/color][/font][/size] [wlm] |
| 07/07/03 at 20:07:08 |
| paula |
| Re: "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| siddiqui |
| 07/07/03 at 19:41:06 |
| [slm] Since there is so much opportunisim involved these days, and there is so much uncertainity,I think bros and sisters should mary CITIZENS of their own countries or 'similar' countries wallahu aalam [wlm] |
| 07/07/03 at 19:46:16 |
| siddiqui |
| Re: "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| Maliha |
| 07/07/03 at 23:00:19 |
| [slm] Just to be fair not *all* men without papers are bad...my hubby was on a student visa and there are many awesome men that happen to be of different nationalities, and there are many American citizens who are jerks. It's very hard to *know* for sure whether you are making the right decision or not...with or without ze papers...i mean for real, it's not like the papers are stamped with a seal of "Best Hubby Award"! anywho...jus me two useless cents... die hard FOB defender 8) Maliha :-) [wlm] |
| 07/07/03 at 23:01:02 |
| Maliha |
| Re: "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 07/07/03 at 23:42:54 |
| [slm] I totally agree with you sister Maliha...but the thing is the man should not lie about it. If he is lying about it then that means there is something wrong and also you should know that he is not marrying you / sweet talking you solely for that reason. |
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| UmmZaid |
| 07/08/03 at 02:41:48 |
| [slm] [quote]I'm engaged with a man and he is waiting to get his visa to stay here to work. And this kind of thing crosses my mind every once in a while. I've asked him about what kind of visa he's here in the US with and what one he's trying to get, because I really have no idea what all is involved with this kind of stuff, and he doesn't like it when I ask him about it, he thinks I don't trust him. I do trust him, but it's true, we can't read other peoples minds to know who lies to us and who doesn't, we can only go by what we know of that person. I think now I'll have to ask to see some of these papers or the visa he has now. I wouldn't have thought of it before, I'm glad I read the post, Kathy, that's really sad what happened to that woman though. It makes me so mad that men would do things like this. And I know, it's not all men.[/quote] Missy... If you can afford it, I recommend that you, alone or with your fiance, sit down with an immigration attorney whom you trust. In this day and age, you need to know the ins and outs of immigration law, what each visa status / classification is, what it means if your husband / fiancee goes out of status, what it means for you as an American to be the spouse of a non resident alien, and so on. For example, what would it mean for you as his wife if he went out of status and the Justice Department chose to deport him? What will it mean for you as the wife of a non resident alien when you file adjustment of status papers, when you file your tax returns, and so on? If you can't afford it, you may still find an immigration legal advocacy group (like Legal Aid) in your city to answer your questions, or an attorney online who is willing to answer. (Or a legal FAQ site). My final piece of advice, based on my experience, is that if you all do marry, do you do not file his change of status paperwork without a good attorney (bonus: the lawyer will also come with you to your INS interviews). The paperwork can be confusing, and these days, we are seeing that mistakes or small glitches can equal jail time or deportation for the non resident spouse. http://www.modernmuslima.com/marry.htm -- Short Marriage Guide for New Sisters |
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| yumna |
| 07/11/03 at 03:00:04 |
| [Sister's family must know the brother's reputation at his home town, work and family. ][/Sister's family must know the brother's reputation at his home town, work and family. ] but u no wat now adayz people a ssssoooo goood in lying an cheating that one wouldnt know if they r wat they really r? |
| Re: "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| Tesseract |
| 07/11/03 at 05:15:08 |
| Assalamu 'alaikum, I don't understand why these "papers" is such a big problem for the sisters? Its ur life, u have every right to ask about the status of a brother in this country. Brothers shouldn't hesitate at all when it comes to showing their status. If a brother hesitates, ask him the reason why is he reluctant to show the papers? If he shows the papers, and u have doubts as to whether they are real or fake ( Yes, that's also possible), contact an immigration attorney and try to verify it through him/her. If the brother is here in States on a non-immigrant visa/status (like student or businessman), find out if he intends to stay here in States or not. If he intends to, ask him how does he plan to do that? If he tells u he is expecting the sister to sponsor him and u are not in favour of that, then make it clear right away that u don't intend to sponsor him. If brother tells u he plans to do it on his own, like get a job and apply for Residency through his job etc., still make it clear that in case it wont work out, u wont be sponsoring him at all. And be firm about it, maybe make it a condition in ur marriage contract. Brothers who would be lying that they are not marrying the sister for papers will back off when they'd see that u are putting it as a condition in ur marriage contract. Hope that helps. [quote]Here is a new one.... A Muslimah just found out, after three years of marriage and two children, that her husband is in the States illegally. They (INS) just took him in. She is now a single mom. A woman who speaks no english and depended on her husband for everything outside of the house. No one knew, not even her father.... [/quote] I am sorry, I may sound mean here but to me its a real stupidity on sister's and her parents' part that they never bothered to find out about the brother's status, not even in three years of marriage, SubhanAllah. Wassalam. |
| Re: "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| superFOB |
| 07/11/03 at 06:45:47 |
| [slm] [quote author=Bulwark of Islam link=board=sis;num=1057542652;start=0#14 date=07/11/03 at 05:15:08]I am sorry, I may sound mean here but to me its a real stupidity on sister's and her parents' part that they never bothered to find out about the brother's status, not even in three years of marriage, SubhanAllah.[/quote] Thats not stupidity, its called desperation. And after they get married, there is little point in finding it out, aint it? |
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| Lil_Sista |
| 07/11/03 at 09:14:32 |
| [slm] ohh,after reading this post why do i feel kinda afraid of marrying a muslim bro from other countries....????? :o yeah,yeah....we should be careful'n aware'n keep praying to Allah swt hope that He will always protect'n guide us. missy,i hope that everything will go right with u'n ur fiance insha Allah :-) wallahu'alam bi showab.... peace out! |
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| UmmZaid |
| 07/12/03 at 01:48:52 |
| [slm] [quote] I don't understand why these "papers" is such a big problem for the sisters?[/quote] It's a big deal b/c a fair number of sisters, many of them converts, with no Muslim familiy or deep roots in the Muslim community, are taken advantage of by brothers, sometimes with the collusion of their families. And it's a problem b/c people in our community aren't coming out strongly against it. People may "tsk tsk" and shake their heads, but no one goes to the brother and says, "Listen, about our sister's honor..." I know someone who did this to a woman (not Muslim at the time, but he knew all along the marriage was a fraud from his side -- she did NOT know and thought it was a real marriage). She became Muslim... when he got his green card, he divorced her without a word, and ran back to the old country to marry the virgin cousin, with a big ol' 3 day wedding from the family. She was humiliated, and made a laughingstock. All of the women from that social circle both shook their heads in pity and giggled. Hey, she's just a dumb American! Meanwhile, this brother, whom everyone knows perpetrated a fraud, was never ostracized, was never given a talking to, was never even said "boo" too over what he did. He knew the marriage was a fraud, but that didn't stop him from enjoying his marital rights from her for 5 yrs. (Alhamdulillah, it did not turn her from Islam, and she is now married to a very religious, kind brother who is literally the backbone of the community). [quote]Its ur life, u have every right to ask about the status of a brother in this country.[/quote] Of course... and I wish the communities and families would strongly back up sisters in this endevour, esp. converts who do not have Muslim families involved in the process. Sisters, IME, are often made to feel like they are being pushy, or too aggressive, or too suspicious when they ask questions. |
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| Kathy |
| 07/12/03 at 11:24:02 |
| [slm] [quote]And it's a problem b/c people in our community aren't coming out strongly against it. People may "tsk tsk" and shake their heads, but no one goes to the brother and says, "Listen, about our sister's honor..." [/quote] Ya Allah... the sad thing it has been such a problem for a long time.... Early in the nineties I had the opportunity to go to a Muslim men's class at a prominent Masjid. A sister and I sat in the back of the room listening(for brevity, I am leaving out all those details) All of a sudden the topic changed to the green card. Who had married for it. Many (at least 8 of the 20) of the men raised their hands and began laughing over it. Mocking the system and "chest beating" how they used their American wives. I was newly divorced, (a result of the green card scenerio) and I was on hormonal edge. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. They were so into their conversations, I think they forgot 2 American Muslims were sitting in the dark corner. I began to cry,ok..sob... I could not control myself..and of course the only door out was up front , the path to escape was right pass them. I was out in the lobby when the scholor who had invited us to this class, and was also in the back, came to see if I was all right. He knew my story and he said I had the opportunity of a life time to speak to these brothers. my tears became rage...([i]one of the few times... you should never press the Momma!)[/i] I went in a spoke very calmly and then in a very constructive way "laid them out in lather." The sad part, as the news of my lecture hit the streets, too many sisters asked me if their husbands had raised their hands.... Why oh why do the brothers not come to our defense? Hence why the crusty Momma says "Show Me the Papers" Ha Ha ...as a side note... the next hubby I married... didn't have his and soon we will be married for 11 years! |
| 07/12/03 at 11:26:37 |
| Kathy |
| Re: "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| BroHanif |
| 07/12/03 at 13:29:24 |
| Salaams, I think the women or those who's nationality is based in the west need to be stronger in asking questions and more through in doing their research. If there is any doubt about his stay in the UK question him. One sis that wifey knows has now had to move to India, becuase her husband stayed here illegally and got deported. Another case where a sis got married and then a few months down the line the dirt bag(import) professed that his still in love with his girlfriend of his native country!. The poor sis hearing this who was 18 at the time was devasted, the family as well. And the thing about the papers well the bro convinvced the family members that he wants to get married to this girl and the parents are not dumb or stupid, they thought he was honest and genuine thats why they gave away their daughter. And now his done a runner. Salaams Hanif |
| NS |
| Re: "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| Al-Basha |
| 07/12/03 at 20:06:16 |
| [slm] I think guys who marry for the greencard and then run off should be beat and dealt with: Omar Ibn Khattab style One sister asked why a brother would do this? Selfish, arrogant and totally unaware of the fact that one way or the other Allah will punish them for their deeds. Sisters make sure your wali is not a pushover when it comes to these matters of marriage. There's a reason why Islam instituted wali al amr to sisters in matters of marriage. If the bro doesn't want to answer issues about papers and what not, show him the door and say: 'Welcome to America, now get out" >:( Wa Allahu A3laam |
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| Nomi |
| 07/12/03 at 20:56:34 |
| [slm] [quote author=Al-Basha link=board=sis;num=1057542652;start=15#20 date=07/12/03 at 20:06:16] I think guys who marry for the greencard and then run off should be beat and dealt with: 'Welcome to America, now get out" [/quote] What about those who stay and are good ?!? |
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| Caraj |
| 07/13/03 at 02:14:02 |
| I use to have a dear friend who met a man from England on the pc. He came here to visit her and after the 90 days he had to go back. Thinking he could go home and come back for another 90 days. They began to plan their wedding. Now I saw the little red flags and tried to gently tell her of my concerns. This brit gent had I WANNA GREEN CARD written all over him :o he even tried to get me to write his brother thinking cause I was into horses I would be interested cause he was a ex jockey. The first and only letter said something about planning our wonderful life together and our future. Well Excuse me but that was just a bit coming on strong. Please pass the ketcup and while your at it how about that green card ::) But she was love struck ::) Well coming back wasn't so easy and they for some reason which he would never tell her they detained him here and sent him back. :o (he was 100% brit and not of another country) She was in touch with his family and gave her banking account info to help with travel and legal expenses but once home He robbed her blind and cleaned out the account and that was that. I know of many honorable men. But a sister needs to be careful especially these one with parents who are pushing marriage and not listening to their daughters feelings and requests. :'( Just be careful ladies, please just be careful |
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| a_Silver_Rose |
| 07/13/03 at 19:17:23 |
| [slm] [quote]I think guys who marry for the greencard and then run off should be beat and dealt with: [/quote] I completely agree. Some may say that violence is not the answer, but some way or another these men need to be punished or dealt with for isnt this a big crime? marriage is not a joke and plus the spouse was used and abused. It is very important because once a man gets away with it he might encourage another brother to do it or might not have a problem with taking advantage of another woman in the same way. And if the person is dealt with insh'Allah he may warn the other brothers. These brothers atleast need to be educated that they are doing something very wrong and how would they feel if they were the victim in a similar situation. Again not every man who needs a greencard (as sis mystic said) and wants to get married is bad. we just have to try our best in finding out that is soley not the reason, meet the parents and friends and then trust Allah (Swt) anyhow im very happy to hear the remarks of most of the brothers on this board. It is very comforting and may Allah (swt) reward you. This is proof that there are some still very gr8 brothers out there. Alhumudulilah. and hopefuly insh'Allah you are also educating and showing your good example to other brothers. May Allah (Swt) guide us all. your sister |
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| jannah |
| 07/14/03 at 02:30:41 |
| [slm] The least we can do as a community is ostracize people who do this to our sisters. The problem is many people may think that 'he deserves another chance', or that he's 'reformed' now. w'Allahu alam i think they should really very carefully weigh the evidence if he is or not and err on the side of caution. As for whether skmeone is marrying you for green card or not, it may be that you'll never know.. and it comes down to istakarah and trusting Allah and trusting the person. |
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| UmmZaid |
| 07/14/03 at 03:49:35 |
| [quote]I think guys who marry for the greencard and then run off should be beat and dealt with: 'Welcome to America, now get out" [/quote] [quote]What about those who stay and are good ?!? [/quote] [slm] I think al Basha was just addressing the ones who don't stay and aren't good. Not good, sincere, upright brothers who marry women with good intentions and get their papers in the process. |
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| Fozia |
| 07/14/03 at 04:11:22 |
| [slm] Just have to put my two pennies worth in. Hubby knows a shop owner who's daughter married back home, both families are spectacularly rich, so the wedding was huge they had film stars as guests and stuff very ott (but that's just my opinion). Anyways the guy legged it once he was given indefinite leave to stay, the couple had been married I think about three years. A few months later it emerged the ex was looking to get married again but the engagement was broken off once the prospective bride discovered his previous antics. About a year later he was found dead alone in his flat... He was covered in flies and had been dead for a good few weeks..... Too many people forget that their creator is watching them, and oneday they will meet him. Wasalaam BTW I agree with whoever said fob's aren't all bad, I knew my hubby wanted brit citizenship but he was also looking to get married for keeps.... |
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| asap |
| 07/14/03 at 07:29:37 |
| Salam Alaikum warahmatullah, Not sure but why is it that Muslims who go to US do not hesitate in breaking sharia bounds yet in their native place are too conservative. My friend who was then on F1 visa (student visa) once told me how he was asked to bring someone else's wife to US as his own. :o wa-salam asap |
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| siddiqui |
| 07/14/03 at 08:52:38 |
| [slm] [quote]If the brother is here in States on a non-immigrant visa/status (like student or businessman), find out if he intends to stay here in States or not. If he intends to, ask him how does he plan to do that? If he tells u he is expecting the sister to sponsor him and u are not in favour of that, then make it clear right away that u don't intend to sponsor him. If brother tells u he plans to do it on his own, like get a job and apply for Residency through his job etc., still make it clear that in case it wont work out, u wont be sponsoring him at all. [/quote] I quite agree with Brother Bulwark But just want to add If the Brother says okie I dont want you to sponsor me and I will try my best but IF i cannot make it , and might have to go back home or some other land will you come with me? Will the sisters say yes/no? (would love to know the sisters opinion on this) In my opinion if the sister says yes- Alhamdullilah.Atleast you would know that she is marrying for you and not for your immigration status If the sister says no - Alhamdullilah. Thats her choice she can marry who she wants and live where she wants I guess the best thing for the sisters would be to refuse the proposals of the brothers who are here on Non Immigrant status completley and in right from the begining . MashAllah we have so many pious brothers here who are immigrants/citizens and they can make a great match for the sisters here who are immigrants/citizens Insha Allah [quote]Not sure but why is it that Muslims who go to US do not hesitate in breaking sharia bounds yet in their native place are too conservative. My friend who was then on F1 visa (student visa) once told me how he was asked to bring someone else's wife to US as his own.[/quote] Iam here on a student (F1) visa too but all I can say to this is :o :( >:( >:( >:( |
| 07/14/03 at 11:53:45 |
| siddiqui |
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| sofia |
| 07/14/03 at 10:51:29 |
| As-salaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah, Sheeesh, may Allah help all those sisters in such marriages, and save other sisters from such a mess. Sisters, please just be careful and don't be pressured into marrying someone without some necessary information. Yes, parents only have the best intentions, but unfortunately many are more interested in having their daughters "settled" than asking some tough questions. If you, your mahrem or your family don't feel comfortable asking these questions, ask someone else you trust to. After all, this person should be the qawwaam of the household (which is a huge responsibility and right that should require an examination in my opinion, but that's another story). Hard to know another person's intentions, but at least try to figure out his status, what his plans are, etc. As already mentioned, if obtaining this information is like "pulling teeth" then it may be enough indication, Allahu A'lim. And also as mentioned, on the flip side, not having "papers" is not necessarily an indication of a shady brother, and many of these brothers may not even think of taking advantage of a sister. In any case, ask some tough questions and always do istikhaarah, and may Allah guide all to the best decisions. was-salaamu 'alaykum, Sister too tough :) |
| 07/14/03 at 10:53:41 |
| sofia |
| Re: "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| Nomi |
| 07/14/03 at 11:02:29 |
| [Note: posted in parallel to sis sofia] [slm] I second what Super bro siddique said. Many of my friends are FOBs, one of them was heading home from Houston and visited his uncle in Birmingham (UK) on his way back. His aunt gave a call to his mother in lahore and told her that she is arranging a "meeting" of a couple of girls (citizens) in her block with her son... well they talked and rest is irrelevant to this thread so i'll come to the point i.e. FOBs do get proposals, happens all the time... I also know this sis (really respect her) who was more than happy to sponser this FOB guy, she said he worths it for his religious values. Don't get me wrong plz, DO ask for the papers, if hes hiding something then there is obviously something fishy and bros should not lie, it all comes down to "self respect". just wanted to show the other side of the picture... |
| 07/14/03 at 13:15:40 |
| Nomi |
| Re: "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| Trustworthy |
| 07/14/03 at 11:42:56 |
| [slm] You guys get ready for this....drum roll please....*drrrrrrrrr* Sisters do the same thing. They marry a man from the States because he is from the States. There is a quiet dilemma in my community where the men thinks it's their duty to go back home and marry the younger women to later bring them here for a better life. Too bad this state does not allow polygomy :D. So now they go back home at 2ice a year for a month each time and then work their butt off here for the current State wife and the newly wedded back home wife. Now these men ar in there late 30s-60s that do this and the women are between 14-17. It's desperation, in my opinion. What I don't get is that theses wives here didn't agree, yet they are still with them. It's true they actually believe that it is their duty Islamically to marry these younger women so to avoid them to prostitution. They almost convinced my husband to do the same thing. I said, you have my blessing just divorce me first. (Was that wrong?) After arguing about what those men did was wrong. I mean there so many things that could happen. Like one: use them just for the money since the men are only there 2ice a year. Who knows maybe they'll marry someone else back home and have the American hubby only 2ice a month :D. They say that these women are broadcast at the masjids. I don't know what to say about that. But in my opinion, if these are so wanting to help out these sisters, they could just give them zakat. It's basically what they're doing anyhow. That's what I suggested to my husband. I have no problem sending money to them, we do it all the time. What's the difference with this situation. That way, she can have a full time husband later on and etc. It is men these days. They try to justify wrongful acts. What's up with that? But that's any man....not just ones who want marry for the women's status in the States. You really do have to choose you life partner carefully. But not everyone know how to or is truthful, astaghfirullah. Ma-asalaama...... |
| Re: "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| Fozia |
| 07/14/03 at 12:35:28 |
| [quote author=Trustworthy link=board=sis;num=1057542652;start=30#31 date=07/14/03 at 11:42:56] [slm] You guys get ready for this....drum roll please....*drrrrrrrrr* Sisters do the same thing. They marry a man from the States because he is from the States. There is a quiet dilemma in my community where the men thinks it's their duty to go back home and marry the younger women to later bring them here for a better life. Too bad this state does not allow polygomy :D. So now they go back home at 2ice a year for a month each time and then work their butt off here for the current State wife and the newly wedded back home wife. Now these men ar in there late 30s-60s that do this and the women are between 14-17. It's desperation, in my opinion. What I don't get is that theses wives here didn't agree, yet they are still with them. [/quote] [slm] Someone kindly put an end to my ignorance, because the last time I checked, in Islam the condition for polygamy goes something like, you can marry up to four wives, providing you treat them all equally. Now in Sister Trustworthy's scenario (btw I'm not getting at you sister), how exactly are these wives being treated equally please tell me, one wife appears to have the privilige of washing her husbands socks for the better part of the year, the other has a husband (probably the better side of him too) for a little time once or twice a year..... And these brother's are [i]saving[/i] these (14-17 year olds did you say??), why are these girls so in need of being married, is there a severe shortage of young men available in their immediate environment, are all the older women all married and not in need of saving?? Yes the prophet [saw] had more than one wife and all of varying ages, however he treated them all equally.... Someone purrlease point out the obvious that I am missing, as this scenario appears blatantly wrong to me. Look at it from another perspective if I as a muslimah find this less than acceptable how does one think a non muslim is going to see this sort of behaviour?? Right waiting to be yelled at now, and feeling rather hysterical too. I think I'll sit here and sob quietly into my keyboard so as not to wake the baby :'( Wassalaam BTW Sister Kathy I am so sorry for what you went through... The older I get the more I wonder at the world I live in :o >:( :( :'( |
| 07/14/03 at 12:36:59 |
| Fozia |
| Re: "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| Trustworthy |
| 07/14/03 at 16:28:37 |
| [slm] "And these brother's are saving these (14-17 year olds did you say??), why are these girls so in need of being married, is there a severe shortage of young men available in their immediate environment, are all the older women all married and not in need of saving?? " My arguments exactly dear sister. In Islam, 4 wives are allowed if they are treated equally socially, financially, emotionally, etc. (yeah, good luck to you guys) and I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but the first wife have a say in it as well like yes or no to the extra wives. I argued with my husband since he seems to be taking the sides of the men, that our home land is full of widows and orphans who are in better need of money then the younger girls who have parents. The story line I heard is that these girls are showcased in the masjids whenever they hear of someone arriving from the States and the Imam preaches that it is the men's duty to save these young women from prostitution. (They're Muslims for Allah's sake!!!) It's their parents who send them that way or not. What the He**? Now none of us wives here beleive that because some of us have been back home for visits. yeah their living conditions suck but that's why we send them money all the time. And these wives here, don't agree to the marraige but their husbands do it anyway. This is a quiet dilemma b/c no one wants the Imam to hear about it (hmm...wonder why), but it's funny how they're trying to recruit ppl. So far I've heard only 4 has gone that way from my community but it's widespread. There's no shortage of men back home. The parents don't want their girls to marry those men because they arein the same boat--no money and no status in the States. Poor guys. I bet they hate these guys in the States for taking all their brides. I don't know what to do. They won't listen to me because I'm too young and they women to them are just women (if you get my drift-which is a whole new story). Maybe this should've been in it's own thread. Sorry. But my point was that women do the same thing so what to do huh? Ma-asalaama..... |
| Re: "Show Me the Papers!" |
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| UmmZaid |
| 07/15/03 at 01:57:41 |
| [slm] Two things: (1) One, females can do it too, but in the cases presented by S. Trustworthy... is it really the women who are doing it, or is it their parents? If these girls are only 14 - 17... how much say do they *really* have in whether or not they get married to the guy with the green card / US passport? What I have personally observed when it comes to women marrying guys who have US passports is that it's the family who goes all ga-ga for the guy and pushes the marriage. I saw this when I was in Jordan, they married the girl to a "good" guy from the US (his relatives were our neighbors, and they were good people). AFTER they spent the $$ having these engagement parties, they were legally married, etc... THEN they started to poke around and ask around about the guy. It was so much more important from the get-go that he was a US citizen that they missed the fact that he drinks alcohol, smokes pot, doesn't pray, and doesn't fast, is very hesitant to spend money on his new wife (ex. they would go out... he would buy something for himself to eat, and eat it in front of her, but tell her she could eat when they got home), lies to his wife, etc. So they had to go through a messy divorce, but oops, now you had the contract signed, they have been going on dates and now they're "in love." So it turned into a fiasco. In another case, this family married their just out of HS daughter to a relative who is hitting 40. This relative couldn't get any relatives or friends here to stand up for him in case the family decided to investigate... his own best friend said, "I won't vouch for you if they call asking." Anyway, they just saw the US passport... they didn't send anyone or have anyone check on his affairs here, his job, his house, etc. They don't know about his apartment which dark and cramped and small (meanwhile, she lives in a big, sunny house in Jordan), they don't see his girlfriendS coming over and going on dates with him (the ones he's cheating on this 18 yr old girl with), and so on. The passport was sooo important and so dazzling that they were willing to forgo all questions and checking around that they would have done if he was just some local yokel who came asking for her hand. (2) I think with shady women, it's more likely that they are going to marry a guy for his money or position, rather than his papers, AND I think the other difference, as far as Muslim women go, is that they aren't going to divorce as much. The guy who only marries for papers is gone once he gets them. The woman who married for money and then had a child or two with him... she's probably not going anywhere. |
| 07/15/03 at 02:01:21 |
| UmmZaid |
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