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| Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| humble_muslim |
| 07/13/03 at 22:21:18 |
| Really sick how the media are trying to get ANYONE or ANYTHING associated with Islam these days. And even sicker are the comments of the two so-called "scholars", who should really fear Allah SWT. I strongly suggest that those of you associated with the Jammat write VERY stronlgy worded letters to the NY Times telling them exactly what you think. Long article, I'll just post the link : http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/14/national/14ISLA.html?ex=1058760000&en=876813109fe49c22&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE |
| NS |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| Traveler |
| 07/14/03 at 06:02:47 |
I read the article before I read the above post. And when I was done reading the article I was wondering how the tablighees would react to it, considering the fact they are apolitical and against public protests. And minutes later I get my answer. :) |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| humble_muslim |
| 07/14/03 at 06:44:32 |
| AA I'm not a Tablighee, but respect what they do. |
| NS |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| Traveler |
| 07/14/03 at 08:05:11 |
| oh absolutely, I do. It's just that they make it real difficult. ;) [Note to mod: no more one liners, I promise ] |
| 07/14/03 at 08:05:57 |
| Traveler |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| Nomi |
| 07/14/03 at 10:07:33 |
| [slm] SubhanAllah, i thought "we" were referred to as the "peace missionaries" by the west coz there were/are no politics, no protest, no games and just the word of peace that was/is spread. Ah! but its just another verse of Qur'an proving true that many kuffar will only be happy with Muslims if we leave our faith and join theres! *sigh* [slm] |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| lucid9 |
| 07/14/03 at 11:39:24 |
| [slm] I thought the article was really unfair. I will write a letter to the times. Hey Nomi, are you tablighi? (I like tablighis a lot). |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| Nomi |
| 07/14/03 at 14:09:23 |
| [slm] yaar i should've been more active but i've just been to 8-10 retreats of 3 day each (lazy me). My elder bro is quite active though, mashAllah, hes just returned today after being away for 10. |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| Trustworthy |
| 07/14/03 at 17:41:37 |
| [slm] Wow. Such a strong and reflective article. They twisted it. Did anyone catch that? First they talked about how peaceful and non-politcial group they are to at the very end, nothing but they're all just face value. All of the Tablighis that have visited the masjids I've been to have been and preached nothing but Peace to others. And that's all I knew of them. Nothing political. When they recruited in my community, I wanted to join. But I'm a girl and it's a "no girls allowed" club. What I don't get and someone tell me if this is true...is the Taliban. Are they as horrendous as what the media portrayed them to be? Because what I've told ppl is that I don't know about them but if they are how the media portrays them to be then it's not Islamic, not even radical Islam is that bad. They get confused because they see me and then they see the Taliban image and get confused. So do the Tablighis praise the Taliban? Ma-asalaama.... |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| Nomi |
| 07/14/03 at 18:09:56 |
| [slm] [quote author=Trustworthy link=board=ummah;num=1058145678;start=0#7 date=07/14/03 at 17:41:37]So do the Tablighis praise the Taliban? [/quote] Talighis are just regular people, they are from among us, no one is a labeled tablighi. People from all spheres of life go on these retreats, there are separate jamaats of doctors, engineers, students, landlords, even of deaf/disabled!! So its just a subset of the ummah with varied ideas but one goal i.e. "peace" and trying to bring ummah to the straight path along with spritual betterment of one's own self. [quote author=Trustworthy link=board=ummah;num=1058145678;start=0#7 date=07/14/03 at 17:41:37] When they recruited in my community, I wanted to join. But I'm a girl and it's a "no girls allowed" club. [/quote] Girls are always welcome in da club BUT with mahrams as my mother and younger sis did go for a 3 day retreat with my elder bro twice. [slm] Asim Zafar. |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| BroHanif |
| 07/14/03 at 19:14:59 |
| Salaams, How did I know this was coming. Sooner or later all groups will be branded as such yet the Tabligh movement needs to address this issue: [quote]Some Muslim groups have long criticized the Tablighi Jamaat for its official refusal to take a stand on the causes that have inflamed the Muslim world, from the Afghan holy war against the Soviet Union in the 1980's to the more recent wars over Kashmir, Chechnya and Bosnia.(Taken from the article)[/quote] Anyway May Allah save us all. Hanif |
| NS |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| superFOB |
| 07/15/03 at 00:19:07 |
| [wlm] The article is not exactly twisting the facts. The problem of special interest groups harvesting new jamaat sympathisers and exploiting their network through other means is well known and is not a new phenomenon. And as far as their response to this article goes, I don't think there would be any. Very few of them take an active interest in the socio-political setup of america. Plus, they don't move a muscle except by explicit instructions from the top brass, whose track record in such matters is well documented, especially in India. In short I'd be really really surprised if there was a public response from the jamaat. |
| 07/15/03 at 00:23:18 |
| superFOB |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| Nomi |
| 07/15/03 at 08:52:36 |
| [slm] Public response from the jamaat? yes u r right, i guess there wont be any. |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| Trustworthy |
| 07/15/03 at 15:20:40 |
| [slm] I'm not understanding your reply dear bro. You say the facts aren't twisted so to speak. At one point Tablighi Jammat is introduced as peaceful ppl who only preach peace and the ummah to go back into true Islamic ways and at the end, the article emphasizes that the speechi s only at face value. That their true intentions is preaching and recruiting for a holy jihad to join with Al-Qeada as to the quote of the Talibans. And the kick from underneath the table for saying that the brother would kill anyone who killed a Muslim. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. And why won't they take a stand? Isn't our duty as Muslims to do so? Speak of justice, etc? "Girls are always welcome in da club BUT with mahrams " I know. Unfortunately, non of my mahrams wanted to go and neither did any other sister. Their next retreat was 10 days from Olympia up to Vancouver, BC. Ma-asalaama.... |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| superFOB |
| 07/16/03 at 04:35:23 |
| [slm] I think that NYT is less at fault then the dubious groups who are exploiting the jamaat network. Thanks to these groups, now any and every muslim organization is suspect in the eyes of the non-muslims. And as far as the tone and direction of the article goes, I prefer to attribute it to the usual attempt to spice up the news. That doesn't necessarily mean that I am for yellow journalism. |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| timbuktu |
| 07/16/03 at 10:28:49 |
| [slm] I wrote something & it disappeared. So I will write something & post it, & add to it again. It means those interested will have to come back to it again & again, for which I seek forgiveness. The Taliban & the Tableeghi Jamaat are two distinctly different offshoots of the deobandi school of thought in India. & the Taliban are not the monsters they are made out to be. Conservative, yes, but monstrous, no. Let us go back to 1857, the year of the uprising in India called "mutiny" by the British (East India Company), & "the first war of independence" by the muslims. In Thana Bhawan, a war council was held by the local leaders, who were religious leaders as well. One of them opposed the uprising, because he said the muslims lacked the weapons to fight the British army. One of his opponents said: "dont we have even the weapons that the Sahaba had in Badr"? So, the decision to join the war was taken. after the crushing of the uprising, a religious school was founded at deoband, by the religious leaders of thana Bhawan. From the opponent of war was descended maulana Ashraf Ali Thanawi, whose books have been used in Hanafi deobandi homes for religious guidance. He was a pacifist, & used to say that if Islam were preached to the Europeans, they would come to this peace (that is islam), & the world would also be at peace. This was in contrast to maulana Mahmud-ul-Hasan, who was jailed & exiled to Andaman Islands by the British Raj. btw: i have respect for many of these leaders, but i do not follow the Hanafi school of thought. I am simply trying to give some history, so those who have questions, can get some answers. among the disciples of Ashraf Ali was maulana Ilyas, who started the Tableeghi mole width="80%" border cellspacing=0 cellpadding=5> |
| Re: suggestions? |
| Nabila |
| 07/16/03 at 15:13:34 |
| [slm] I thought the Prophet (SAW) encouraged women to go to the masjid. ma asalaamah and take care |
| Re: suggestions? |
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| timbuktu |
| 08/13/03 at 00:14:53 |
| [slm] what's wrong with being a computer technician, or any technician? s/he knows much more than i do about computers, & can fix problems i cannot even identify what's wrong with being anyone, as long as it is halal? ppl look down on sweepers, & in this country muslims would not take up this job. although now a few, very few, have started this. But it is wrong to look down upon any one. I hear they are called sanitary engineers. what difference does it make? suppose someone has a doctorate from MIT, &k after the Ummah if it lives by the Shari'a. They eliminated the warlords who had terrorised the Afghan population by pillage & rape. They brought 90% of Afghanistan under their control. There was law & order, poppy cultivation had stopped. Their minus point was that they had stopped education of women in schools & university, because they still lacked the means to have separate education. & that they were suspicious of the NGOs, in which they were right. but they fell foul of the US which had demanded that bin Laden be handed over. while the Taliban said he could be tried in Afghanistan or any Islamic country under shari'a laws. That was not acceptable to the US. There was another factor: the oil & gas pipeline thru' Afghanistan. The deal had fallen thru'. The US was demanding something that the Taliban considered unIslamic. well, i will end now as i have to go for maghrib, but will come back tomorrow to continue, insha'allah. |
| 07/16/03 at 19:59:15 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| Nomi |
| 07/16/03 at 13:52:41 |
| [slm] Quite an informative post bro, thanks. But when you come back to add more, do throw some light on this [quote] Because they wanted people to join & learn islamic (Hanafi) ways [/quote] ? As i've seen ppl from many sects in the jamaat and never have i seen anyone asking others to be hanfi, for instance (i told you guys about different jamaats) the "ameer" of jamaat of sportsmen is a wahabi ! so as far as my interaction with them is concerned, its all about peace and unity. Looking forward to hear more from you and sorry for the interruption. |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| jaihoon |
| 07/16/03 at 17:18:13 |
| [slm] jazak Allah khair for the historical b/ground of the movement. That was very enlightening. Jaihoon :) |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| muahmed |
| 07/16/03 at 19:31:21 |
| [slm] A thousand and one posts can not do justice to the history of Deoband, let alone half of a post. I would recommend anyone interested in the movement to purify and preserve Islam in the Indian subcontinent against external influences and local customs to study the following books: In English: [i]"Islamic Revival in British India: Deoband, 1860-1900"[/i] by Barbara Daly Metcalf, Princeton University Press Sayyid Ahmad Shahid: His life and mission by Mohiuddin Ahmed, Lucknow, 1975 The Faith Movement of Mawlana Mohammad Ilyas by M. Anwarul Haq, London, 1972 In Urdu: [i]Mauj-e-Kausar and Rud-i-kausar[/i] by Shaikh Muhammad Ikram, Lahore 1968 The following are biographies in urdu: [i]Hayat-e-Imdad[/i] by Muhammad Anwar ul Hasan Shairkoti (about Hajji Imadudallah Mahajir Makki, the teacher of the founders of Darul Uloom Deoband. Darul Uloom Deoband is known as Al-Azhar of India, it is world famous and attracts students from all over the Muslim world.) Karamat-i Imdadiyyah (reprint Yadi-yaran) by Ashraf Ali Thanwi Shamaim-e-Imdadiyya by Muhammad Hussein-ar-Rashid Sawanah Qasimi by Manazir Ahsan Gilani (about Maulana Qasim Nanatowi, the founder of Darul Uloom Deoband, and student of Hajji Imdadullah) [i]Tazkirat-e-Rashid[/i] by Muhammad Ashiq Illahi Meerathi (about Maulana Rashid Ahmad Gangohi, an emminent scholar of Deoband, and student of Hajji Imdadullah) --------- The titles in [i]bold and italic[/i] are highly recommended. |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| timbuktu |
| 07/16/03 at 20:37:50 |
| [slm] the original post was supposed to be modified, but i think i will continue by calling it History of Tableeghi movement - Part II thanx for the replies brother Nomi questions: [i][Because they wanted people to join & learn islamic (Hanafi) ways, & did not ask about sectarian attachment, only made duas, they attracted more & more people. ? As i've seen ppl from many sects in the jammat and never have i seen anyone asking others to be hanfi, for instance (i told you guys about different jamaats the "ameer" of jammat of sportsmen is a wahabi ! so as far as my interaction with them is concerned, its all about peace and unity. /i] the answer to this question would have come up in due course, but let me explain briefly that MAULANA ASHRAF ALI THANAWI was also a pir (sheikh in sufi circles), & he could not bring himself to say anything against the excesses of ancient Sufis like ibnu arabi (who gave the concept of wahdatul wujud), although MAULANA ASHRAF ALI THANAWI was himself a pir in the order of Syed Ahmed Barelvi & Shah Ismail Sheed, both of whom were martyred at Balakot by the Sikhs (& of course by the treachery of Pathan chiefs). Syed Ahmed Barelvi was a disciple of Shah Abdul Aziz who was the son of Shah Waliullah, all famous names in Indian Muslim history. & Maulana Ilyas was the mureed of MAULANA ASHRAF ALI THANAWI. Shah Ismail Shaheed wrote the famous book “Taqwiatul Iman”, which is more or less on the same theme as “Kitabut-Tawheed” by Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab. So, MAULANA ASHRAF ALI THANAWI was advocating what Taqwiatul Iman says, at the same time he was carrying on the tradition of pirs & sufiism. brother Muhammad Ahmed has given reference to some bookS. Of these, i would recommed the following:[i] [In English: "Islamic Revival in British India: Deoband, 1860-1900" by Barbara Daly Metcalf, Princeton University Press Sayyid Ahmad Shahid: His life and mission by Mohiuddin Ahmed, Lucknow, 1975 The Faith Movement of Mawlana Mohammad Ilyas by M. Anwarul Haq, London, 1972 In Urdu: Mauj-e-Kausar and Rud-i-kausar by Shaikh Muhammad Ikram, Lahore 1968 /i] i would read the others with a pinch of salt, since they are written by mureeds (themselves great pirs) of the respective pirs. It is interesting that after the science of Hadith was lost in the subcontinent due to Hindu & Qarameteh pressure in Sindh, Islam was reintroduced via Afghanistan, wher the fiqh hanafi was more important that hadith. Hence deen was transmitted not via Bukhari & Muslim, but by secondary & tertiary books. Even the Muhadditheen of those times were not fully familiar with sahih ahadith. I am sure someone will ask how the science of hadith was lost in the sub-continent. Well, when thatQ is asked, I will answer it, insha’allah. The name Wahhabi is also a misnomer & is used in different meanings, but for the sake of argument, we will take your ameer as belonging to the ahle hadith or salafi school of thought. Generally, there is no pir in this school, although occasionally you find such a person, but his mureeds would not associate the powers & qualities that Sufis do with their pirs. To come back to the original question, maulana Ilyas wanted to preach to all, & keep away from controversy, but naturally he wanted that the movement be not hijacked by vested interests, so they had a system of Baya’a, which the salsfis do not consider proper. This baya’s was optional, & as you can see it was a sufi tradition. The salafis also objected to the points according to which the Tableeghi members to conduct Tabligh, because they did not think it was according to Sunnah. However, some ahle hadith persons also started attending, & the ulema were included in the shura. They considered that the Ummah was in such abd shape that it did not even know the kalmia, so something was better than nothing. In this connection, let me quote the famous Meewat phenomenon. When maulana Ilyas went to Meewat, he found idols in every house, although some of the people had muslim names & proudly proclaimed that they were muslims. The maulana asked what the difference was between Muslims & Hindus when they both had idols. He was told that the Muslim idol was clean, was made of wheat flour, while the Hindu idol was unclean, & was made of mud & cow dung mixed together. I think you get the picture of the state of Muslims in the sub-continent. Even today, a large number of Muslims think that their pir is Ilah (nao’oz-o-billah), & they prostrate before him. Translations of meanings of the Quran is not allowed to be read in jammat because the Tableeghi ameers have thought it may give rise to sectarian fights. Similarly, Hadith is not allowed to be read by Bukhari & Muslim. Instead they have a book in Urdu called “Fadail”, which is read by the people of the sub-continent. Fadail contains many daeef or even munkir ahadeeth, & gradually on objection from ulema, the more kffensive notes have been taken out. when the movement spread beyond the sub-continent to Arabia, the need was felt for something other than "Fadail" Fortunately, for the Arabs the Jammat hit upon “Riad-us-Swaliheen” by Imam Nawawi. & Arabs were attracted in large numbers. I have asked the jammat to introduce the translation of "Riad-us-Swaliheen" for the sub-continent, but to no efect yet. However, the impact has been that very large number of people has learnt the basics of Islam, minus jihad. The Tableeghi movement has a shura, & all decisions were taken there. As I have mentioned, on objection from outside circles, & the ulema, weak ahadith are gradually being removed from the book on Fadail. Similarly, their weak point was that when Jihad had been enjoined by Allah, why is it not taught in the Jammat. At times, they justified it by saying that they were in the Meccan phase of the struggle, & when they establish a Muslim state (Medina phase), they would do jihad. At other times they took shelter behind the Hadith on Jihad-e-Akbar & jihad-Asghar. Anyway, when the Taliban took over Afghanistan there was great pressure on the Tableeghi jammat to give them support, as both were followers of deoband, but they resisted. now if any one wants how the science of hadith was lost & recovered, or other questions, then if I have any answers, i will be most willing to add. |
| 07/16/03 at 20:50:59 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| muahmed |
| 07/16/03 at 21:48:39 |
| [slm] I just wanted to point out two things. I wish I did not have to write this post for I know everyone on this board will agree with your opinion. But I can not help myself but attempt to defend Ibn Arabi, Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanwi and Shah WaliUllah, even if that entails your calling me a disbeleiver, for I respect and love them. You wrote: [quote] but let me explain briefly that MAULANA ASHRAF ALI THANAWI was also a pir (sheikh in sufi circles), & he could not bring himself to say anything against the excesses of ancient Sufis like ibnu arabi (who gave the concept of wahdatul wujud), although MAULANA ASHRAF ALI THANAWI was himself a pir in the order of Syed Ahmed Barelvi & Shah Ismail Sheed, both of whom were martyred at Balakot by the Sikhs (& of course by the treachery of Pathan chiefs). Syed Ahmed Barelvi was a disciple of Shah Abdul Aziz who was the son of Shah Waliullah, [/quote] Know that Shah Waliullah upheld the sufi concept of wahdat-ul-wajud and advised that normal ordinary people (aam) should not discuss or even mention it. That is why I will not reply to any other post attacking that concept. I am not worthy to even talk about it. However I must mention that Shah Waliullah, one of the grestest sufis the indian subcontinent has produced, upheld that concept. The second point was about your attack on Fazail-e-Amal. Please see Mufti Taqi Usmani's answer at: [url]http://www.albalagh.net/qa/fazail_amaal.shtml[/url] The gist of his answer is: [quote] However, it is true that some Ahadith of those books are of weak chain of narrators. But in the case of Fazail such Ahadith are accepted by a large number of Hadith scholars because they do not lay down the rule of Shariah. Rather, they mention the merit of an act that is already proved through an authentic source. Therefore, if these books contain such Ahadith it does not make any big difference and a Muslim can safely benefit from them. [/quote] ---- I will not inshAllah post anymore in this thread, though I have a feeling it will either be locked or deleted soon. |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| superFOB |
| 07/16/03 at 21:55:51 |
| [slm] I think that the thread is taking another direction and tone. I suggest we end this discussion before it gets out of hand. |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| jannah |
| 07/16/03 at 23:09:51 |
| [wlm] As per the constitution we should avoid arguing about various Muslim groups. News articles are fine however for information purposes. |
| Re: Tabligh Jammat now branded as terrorists |
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| jannah |
| 07/19/03 at 03:55:04 |
| Addenda: sister as administrator & owner of this site, perhaps you will be happy to learn that brother m_u_ahmed & i have cleared up the misunderstanding. there were a couple of mistakes in my post. since it is locked, i cannot correct them. i will appreciate it if the administration corrects it: 1. About Meewat, the scholar who asked about the idols was maulana Ashraf Ali Thanawi, not maulana Ilyas. 2. maulana Mahmudul Hasan was imprisoned in Malta, not Andaman Islands (thats why he is called aseer-e-Malta), thanx *** below are copies of emails: what i sent to bro. m u ahmed is first, & his reply is next. From: timbuktu To:Mohammad Ahmed brother. assalam-o-alaykum i am sorry if you felt i was attacking anyone. If i do not agree with a scholar, it does not mean i will be disrespectful to him/ her. & why would i call you a disbeliever? I am not a mufti, & throwing people out of Islam is not my job. friends? From: Mohammad Ahmed To: timbuktu wa alaikum as salaam, do not worry about it. I got a little sentimental i guess forgive me if i caused any ill feelings. |
| 07/19/03 at 13:40:00 |
| jannah |
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