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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| jannah |
| 07/16/03 at 04:43:21 |
| (excuse the title) Thought this was very interesting...... Should Women Wear Bras? (The Search for Progressive Islam in America) By Ahmed Nassef January 26, 2003 -- 1:15 am EST Muslim Wake Up! Everybody loves progressive Muslims these days. (The INS does too, but they love them better in jail. Call it "tough love."). Heck, even Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Secretary of Defense and one of the architects of President Bush's impending war on Iraq, is a big proponent: before bedtime, he is curling up these days with a copy of Taking Back Islam. Reading the book has encouraged him, he told the Washington Post recently: "We need an Islamic reformation, and I think there is real hope for one." The 19th century had Jamal Al-Din Al-Afghani and Muhammad Abduh. The 20th century gave us Muhammad Iqbal. Now, we have Paul Wolfowitz calling for the reopening of the gates of ijtihad (original thinking on legal matters). With friends like him, well you know how the rest goes. But of course the kind of "moderate" and "progressive" Islam that Wolfowitz wants is the kind that accepts US hegemony over the world, that thinks it's peachy to relegate Palestinians to bantustans, and that believes Donald Rumsfeld is the long lost mahdi, ready to liberate and "democratize" Iraq. All of which begs the question: how can a genuine, indigenous progressive movement develop in the United States among the estimated six million or so Muslims here? Unquestionably, "progressive" or "moderate" are loaded terms. The members of the Wahhabi Council for Scientific Research and Legal Opinions, the supreme religious body in Saudi Arabia, for example, describe themselves as moderate and mainstream as they rule that women over 40 are prohibited from wearing bras. In the US, some Muslim American leaders will proclaim their love for participation and "shura" while presiding over undemocratic, exclusive personality cults. So for the record, let me be clear: sexist, racist, bigoted, authoritarian, and exclusionary practice is NOT how I define progressive. This is not a matter of three out of five isn't bad. Most authoritarian religious groupings, no matter their theological or juridical leanings, prefer an exclusive interpretation of the Truth (this goes for the Christian Broadcasting Network, the Catholic Church, or the Islamic Center of Southern California). If you are critical of these organizations and their attempts at monopolizing faith, you are likely to be branded a "pariah." For example, the "mainstream" Catholic view on premarital sex, divorce, and the use of contraception depends on whether you are defining mainstream by looking at official Church rulings, or the actual practice of most Catholics. Similarly, the views of many Catholic theologians in academia about the import of the Bible differ dramatically from the official Church. And in many cases, they are viewed as "pariahs" by the Church. As anyone who has been to Riyadh or Jeddah will likely attest, the reality of people's lives (whether it has to do with music, western entertainment, or social mixing) varies greatly from "mainstream" Wahhabi official doctrine. (The fact that the Lebanese satellite TV network LBC morning exercise program, with its attractive, leotard-clad host [see photo], is one of the most popular programs in its timeslot testifies to more than just an aerobically fit Saudi viewership.) And the same probably goes for the reality of Muslim Americans. What percentage of the nation's estimated 6 million Muslims actually attend a mosque on a regular basis? Chances are we will find a very large number of people, perhaps a majority, who neither belong to a mosque, nor much care what the local imam thinks of them. According to a study commissioned by American Muslim organizations and whose respondents were local mosque officials, there are approximately 2 million people even vaguely associated with a mosque's activities in the United States. Although that number is likely exaggerated, even when we take it at face value, it indicates that 4 million Muslims, two-thirds of the estimated population in the US, have no relationship whatsoever to a Muslim community institution. Compare that with the following US Muslim demographic statistics from another study: · Almost 70% are under forty · Almost 70% hold a bachelor's degree or higher · Their median household income is way above the US average. So why are so many young, well-educated, upwardly mobile Muslims not involved in "official" community activities? The reality is that most Muslims in the US today don't have a Muslim voice that speaks for them and their life in America. The right way for a woman to cover her hair, the intricacies of ablution, or which side of the street the Prophet would have wanted us to walk on are not the kind of things that likely interest the majority of Muslims in the US. But unfortunately the Muslim American establishment would rather hold on to their petty fiefdoms than to open their hearts and minds to others. A case in point is how they treat some of the best Muslim academics, who are usually shunned. After all, they may be thinking, why invite a world-recognized Islamic Studies scholar to lecture on the Qur'an when you can have a gynecologist do it instead. I suspect that the disconnect between what the majority of Muslims think and do and established Muslim organizations in the US is at least as glaring as the one among Catholic Americans. The result of such disconnects in the US among other communities has traditionally been: (1) a general alienation leading to a loss of faith or a search for alternative spirituality (e.g. the growth of New Age ideas and interest in "Eastern" philosophy), or (2) the development of a more representative set of religious ideas that redefines the religion for a community or sub-community (e.g. the modern US development of Unitarian/Universalist Christianity in the 18th and 19th centuries and Reform Judaism). The fact that Islam is very open to transformation/redefinition is illustrated by our rich sectarian history: hundreds of years ago, a multitude of Muslim sub-communities emerged ranging from ones that advocated the concepts of communal property to the transmigration of souls to a living, hidden imam. Which road will Muslims in America eventually take? Of course time will tell, but I hope, for the sake of the future of Islam in America, it's not one that will be too pleasing to either Mr. Wolfowitz or the Saudi religious establishment. |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| jaihoon |
| 07/16/03 at 05:21:29 |
| [quote] ...I hope, for the sake of the future of Islam in America, it's not one that will be too pleasing to either Mr. Wolfowitz or the Saudi religious establishment. [/quote] Aaameen! However, it's the irnoy that both the above said parties are becoming more and more similiar ::) |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| timbuktu |
| 07/16/03 at 09:05:25 |
| [slm] the article says: [quote] The members of the Wahhabi Council for Scientific Research and Legal Opinions, the supreme religious body in Saudi Arabia, for example, describe themselves as moderate and mainstream as they rule that women over 40 are prohibited from wearing bras. [/quote] I do not have their fatwa, but i would be surprised if they used the word "prohibited". I think it would be more like "exempted". [quote] The right way for a woman to cover her hair, the intricacies of ablution, or which side of the street the Prophet would have wanted us to walk on are not the kind of things that likely interest the majority of Muslims in the US. [/quote] what is wrong with these concerns? they are addressed in AHadith, & if modern day muslims are not concerned about these issues, they need to be. as for other criticisms in this article, i agree, but it looks like more divisions, & u know what Allah (swt) & the prophet (pbuh) said about divisions & sects. may Allah (swt) make us one united ummah aameen |
| 07/16/03 at 09:22:36 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| Trustworthy |
| 07/16/03 at 12:32:21 |
| [slm] Interesting article. May be one day when I have the time I will find the article written by Daniel Pipes about Muslims in America. But.... "I suspect that the disconnect between what the majority of Muslims think and do and established Muslim organizations in the US is at least as glaring as the one among Catholic Americans. " I disagree. For one thing the Catholic Church when afflicted with modernity and needs it's bible to adhere as such, they will rewrite as to redefine the Catholic ways. In Islam, any Muslim will not do that (cause the Qur'an is protected by Allah (SWT)). They just claim that they're Muslims, but not a practicing one. So to state that we are like them is incorrect. There are other parts of the articles I disagree with as well, but in my opinion, this article should be titled, "Westerners Hope to Change Islam Because We Think They Should." Ma-asalaama...... I think this article is all opinionated rather based on facts. |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| timbuktu |
| 07/16/03 at 21:02:05 |
| [slm] sister Trusworthy jazakallahu Khairan i had just glanced thru' the article & pointed out what was wrong, agreeing with the rest on assumption that i had caught the inaccuracies, but you caught the real problems. thanx |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| se7en |
| 07/22/03 at 15:23:19 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah, [quote]The reality is that most Muslims in the US today don't have a Muslim voice that speaks for them and their life in America.[/quote] I think the author is saying that a lot of Muslims are disconnected from the mainstream Muslim community today because it is so narrow in focus and appeal. And because of that, the vast majority of the American Muslim population is re-directing its attention, affiliation and energies elsewhere. We need to be more accepting and inclusive, both to new and non-practicing Muslims. Our communities are suffocating under the weight of self-righteousness and exclusivity. I know these are small examples, but.. no wonder the brother who comes for jummah wearing a gold chain doesn't come back, when he gets ganged up on and yelled at.. or that the sister who comes to the masjid without hijab finds friends elsewhere, when everyone gives her dirty looks and no one says salaam.. I'm sure because of these methods that the brothers who attend that masjid don't ever wear gold chains.. and all the sisters there wear hijab.. but where are all the rest of the Muslims? *Not* at the masjid, that's for sure. I attended a conference recently (Upstate NY ISNA) and a speaker made an *excellent* point.. he said when people come into the deen we hold them to such high standards, expecting them to be perfect Muslims right away.. sometimes we hold them to standards we don't even hold *ourselves* to.. and this totally turns people away. Why are we being so exclusive? We have a world full of bad Muslims.. a few more won't hurt us any :) His point was that.. it's better for people to be within the deen, though they may be doing things wrong or that we disagree with... and within the shelter of the Muslim community we can work to improve and better ourselves and each other. And our ignorance about respecting differences of opinion and ikhtilaaf has led to many problems as well. How often have our communities been occupied with fitna over moonsighting or zabiha meat when there are so many more issues that need to be addressed? We forget that ours is a deen of tolerance, mutual consultation and discussion, and wisdom and discernment. Why are our khutba's filled with shouting political rhetoric or discussing the intricacies of some finer point in fiqh when we have much larger and more pressing matters to discuss? We forget our shared purpose and vision and get caught up in smaller things and our vision is narrowed. As I heard a speaker once say we need less bickering and more dhikr-ing.. (something like that :P) and people are attracted to dhikr, and turned off by bickering. Another thing about our communities that drives me crazy is how we hold people to cultural standards, especially the youth. If you don't conform to certain expectations your "reputation" is endangered. This is why a lot of our youth are not in the masjid.. who wants to go to the masjid just to get judged, criticized, and talked about? There are mixed messages and confusing and opposing expectations, between what Islam encourages and what people deem suitable based on their culture. People need to keep their cultural baggage with the rest of their luggage, in the attic and out of sight ::) And unfortunately, all of these things have moved from individual issues to the larger scale of our communities, organizations and institutions. [quote]The result of such disconnects in the US among other communities has traditionally been: (1) a general alienation leading to a loss of faith or a search for alternative spirituality (e.g. the growth of New Age ideas and interest in "Eastern" philosophy), or (2) the development of a more representative set of religious ideas that redefines the religion for a community or sub-community (e.g. the modern US development of Unitarian/Universalist Christianity in the 18th and 19th centuries and Reform Judaism). [/quote] This is a very deep point, if you think about it. Without mentioning any particular groups or organizations, I think we are seeing a manifestation of the first of these two in our communities now. And I think we need to start working on the second. w'Allahu a'lam. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah |
| 07/22/03 at 16:30:20 |
| se7en |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| Trustworthy |
| 07/22/03 at 20:07:24 |
| [slm] Thanks timbuktu. As much as I hate to agree, I would have to agree b/c it's true. Muslims now-a-days make their own rulings and claim it as Islamic law though they have no proof to make it as such, but they somehow manage to distort the hadith to make their claims legitamate. And us Muslims are intolerable of anyone trying to do that. We are also intolerable of other Muslims who do wrong. As a hadith once told us to do, if you see a wrong correct it by action, then by tongue, then by heart which is the weakest form of correction. I think we sometimes take it beyond the limit losing that particular Muslim instead of making him/her understand. As for the 2nd part, we have already come to that when we start seeing and letting others abuse the word Islam to form their own false Islamic religion such as the Nation of Islam who call themeselves Muslims and say the Shahada yet they add that their prophet was Elijah Mohammed (the last) and blah, blah, blah. I went to their website wanting a debate of their claims, but they refused to respond after I stated that if they read the Qur'an and they beleive in it and Allah then maybe they missed the part where it warns about false coming prophets. That all men are created equal no matter what race, color, etc. I wanted them to show me where in the Qur'an did it ever mention Elijah Mohammed and where Black pp are the superior race over all. Islam calls for unity not division of such. Malcolm X figured it out after going to Hajj. The last response I got from them was that they can no longer debate b/c they were fasting. Oh well.... Ma-asalaama..... |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| jannah |
| 08/06/03 at 16:44:27 |
| [wlm] I agree with much of this article.. wonder if that makes me a *progressive* Muslim and wonder why that seems to be such a bad word. Tailor Muslim practices to fit life in America By Ahmed Nassef NEW YORK ? Omid Safi wanted to go the extra mile to make sure his children experienced an Islamic environment. So he and his family made the one-hour drive to their nearest Islamic Center in Syracuse, N.Y., every week, and he enrolled his son in Sunday school there. Only men were allowed to use the grand main entrance to the mosque. "Women have to use a back entrance right next to the trash dumpster and go down to the basement," Mr. Safi remembers. "It felt fake for me to go through the front door and for my wife to have to use the back entrance. After a while, I could not justify to my conscience continuing to go and sending my children there." Safi, assistant professor of Islamic studies at Colgate University and author of "Progressive Muslims," stopped attending the mosque, and now counts his family and a small group of students as his spiritual community. His experience is not unique among Muslims in the United States - a population estimated at more than 6 million and often cited as the fastest growing religious group in the country. This gulf between the highly conservative nature of most Muslim American institutions and the liberal views of many Muslims born and raised in America is reflected in issues such as the role of women and literalist readings of religious texts. It has sown the seeds for a progressive Muslim movement that is reinterpreting much of what the faith means and how it is reflected in daily life. What Muslim Americans are going through is no different from the experiences of other faith communities that preceded them here. The success of the Conservative and Reform movements in the US as alternatives to Orthodox Judaism, for example, has transformed the meaning of the faith for millions of Jewish Americans. Similarly, the increasing number of native-born Americans who are adopting the faith (constituting about one- third of the total Muslim American population) and Muslim Americans from recent immigrant backgrounds - so many of whom are far removed from their parents' and grandparents' immigrant experiences, with their particular cultural interpretations of Islam - are looking for an Islam that reflects their lives in America. Increasingly, this is translating into a disengagement from existing Muslim institutions in the US and a search for alternate communities. Practically all American mosques are led by people who have no academic training in Islam, or who have received their training from overseas Islamic academies. Most of these have been taken over by highly conservative elements aligned with the extremely conservative Wahhabi interpretation of Islam championed and funded by the Saudi Arabian monarchy. But progressive Muslims in America are taking their inspiration from Islamic scholars trained in Western universities who tend to be critical of authoritarian interpretations of Islam and who treat the real diversity of Muslim societies more inclusively. Today, American mosques and advocacy groups, whose representatives are most commonly called on by the media to speak for Muslim Americans, reflect only a fraction of the larger Muslim American community. A study on US mosques conducted in 2000 by four of the main Muslim American national organizations showed that 2 million of the estimated 6 million Muslim Americans attend Muslim religious institutions at least once or twice each year, and of those, just 411,060 attend mosques regularly. Even allowing for possible exaggeration and duplication - because the survey relied on mosque representatives for its information - the results still raise issues that most Muslim American organizations are afraid to tackle. The most obvious one is that two-thirds of Muslim Americans don't publicly participate even in the most minimal cultural manifestations of their faith (like a Roman Catholic who celebrates only Christmas Mass or a Jew who attends synagogue only during the High Holy Days). In fact, America's traditional Muslim institutions are isolated from the daily reality of life in America. For one thing, they continue to systematically exclude women from participation. Not only do practically all US mosques shut women out of the top leadership position, fully half of them either officially forbid women from serving on their governing boards or, in cases where there is no such specific prohibition, where women have not served on these boards over the past five years. Women who do attend mosques and who aren't willing to fulfill traditional roles find it hard to participate actively. For Farah Nousheen, a young Muslim American filmmaker who just completed "Nazrah," a documentary on Muslim American women, her alienation reached such a level that, after searching through mosques in the Chicago and Seattle areas and finding the same stifling atmosphere, she decided to stop attending altogether. "My experience had a lot to do with being a woman in an environment where almost all the leadership were men. At prayers, women sat in a separate area with all the crying kids. It made me feel less important," says Ms. Nousheen, "There are a lot of people out there who feel like they don't belong." Far from moving toward inclusiveness in the way they deal with women, mosques seem to be doing the opposite. Today, fully two-thirds of mosques force women to pray in a separate room from men or behind a curtain, compared to slightly more than half in 1994. Given this development, it is no surprise that women represent only 15 percent of attendees at the weekly congregational prayers. Another element that is driving progressive Muslims away from traditional mosques is the preoccupation with literalism and the imposition of foreign customs on a faith that prides itself on its universalism. Sermons delivered by nonnative English-speakers on esoteric topics, such as the intricacies of ablution and the ritual washing before prayers, are the rule - not the exception. For people like Katelin Mason, a young American Muslim convert and a graduate student of Islamic studies, the identification with Islam by the traditional Muslim American leadership of specifically cultural expressions, such as wearing particular clothing, is a distortion of the faith. "Wearing hijab [head covering] and having a beard have taken priority," she wrote in a recent article for our online magazine, MuslimWakeUp.com. "When the focus is on appearance, actions and intent become less important. When appearance loses importance, piety emerges." But much of the media is all too ready to accommodate the stereotypes of what Muslim Americans look like. As Omid Safi points out, "Whenever these groups have been called on to appear in the media, it is usually through a middle-aged bearded man with an accent. We rarely see African-Americans, or women not in full hijab, and this certainly is not what our community looks like. Not all Muslim American men have beards, and many Muslim American women don't wear the full hijab." But there are signs that a grass-roots progressive Muslim movement is finally taking hold. Over the Internet, progressive Muslim mailing lists and websites are becoming increasingly popular. Groups like the Progressive Muslim Network and the Network of Progressive Muslims engage in discussions - on everything from matters of ritual to social relationships - that would be unheard of in neighborhood mosques. The online magazine MuslimWakeUp.com which I cofounded, has featured articles that are openly critical of conservative interpretations of Islam - and according to the web-ranking company Alexa, it has become the highest-ranked website geared to Muslim Americans in just six months of operation. A slew of books on progressive Islam in the past few years has energized many Muslim Americans to begin organizing their own conferences and gatherings. In April, a group in Washington, D.C. organized the first Progressive Islam conference, where women and men prayed side by side, and women had the opportunity to lead prayers. Sufism, the Islamic mystical trend that emphasizes spirituality over legalism and is exemplified by the popular poetry of Rumi, represents another haven for progressives. "The only places I have felt comfortable have been Sufi congregations, because they are generally more tolerant and inclusive. They keep the focus on the values and principles of Islam as a living inspiration. They are imbued with the highest values and are not focused on the particulars of law and cultural manifestations," says Amina Wadud, Islamic studies professor at Virginia Commonwealth University and author of "Qur'an and Woman." As with any great world faith, Islam has been very open to transformation, as illustrated by its rich sectarian history - a centuries-old genre of work exists in Islamic literature that is devoted to the study of various Muslim theological, mystical, and philosophical movements. And unless traditional Muslim American institutions and leaders are willing to deal with reality, more and more Muslims will feel compelled to find alternatives that address their spiritual concerns. This could very well mean the formation of a new school of thought, with its own mosques and institutions, that is faithful to the universal principles of Islam. That could only be a positive step for Americans of all faiths, especially if the result is an Islam that is inclusive, tolerant, less authoritarian, and more reflective of Muslims in America. ? Ahmed Nassef, a writer, activist, and marketing management consultant, is editor in chief of MuslimWakeUp.com |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| bhaloo |
| 08/06/03 at 23:09:48 |
| [slm] [quote author=jannah link=board=ummah;num=1058341401;start=0#7 date=08/06/03 at 16:44:27]I agree with much of this article.. wonder if that makes me a *progressive* Muslim and wonder why that seems to be such a bad word. [/quote] Its a bad word because it tends to be associated with an extremist group the author praises in the article. I thought the article was wack, like really wack. Even the first article was way out there. After reading the quote below, I wonder if they believe a woman is required to wear a hijab or not, in front of non-maharams. ::) [quote] organized the first Progressive Islam conference, where women and men prayed side by side, [/quote] Ok, I wanted to comment on this earlier. [quote] I think the author is saying that a lot of Muslims are disconnected from the mainstream Muslim community today because it is so narrow in focus and appeal. And because of that, the vast majority of the American Muslim population is re-directing its attention, affiliation and energies elsewhere. We need to be more accepting and inclusive, both to new and non-practicing Muslims. Our communities are suffocating under the weight of self-righteousness and exclusivity. [/quote] Most of the American Muslims don't even know what Islam is, they are so caught up in making money, and living the American dream. The masjid for them is a place they go twice a year on the eids, and where they listen to some boring khutbah (side comment: i think many imaams know this and for some reason give the longest talk of the year on this day, and that's a terrible idea). And the activities in the masjid are next to nil. Maybe some basic Quran class, but that's it, its not geared for Muslims at all. There's nothing being offered. So what if the women are told they must cover their head and wear clothes that cover their bodies when they enter the masjid? Granted they (weather its men or women who are exposing their awrah) must be advised with hikmah. They have no clue what Islam is. And when they hear all these rules and regulations, they are confused and think these people are too extreme. A long time ago, due to ignorance and not having knowledge, I used to think people that wore hijab and prayed 5 times a day were extremists. And the explanations were, you must wear it or you must do it. There was no proof or explanation, so it was all very extreme to me. These practicing Muslims were the extremsists. BUT once I knew the wisdom behind the legislation for certain things, it all made sense to me. Everything fit together like pieces of a puzzle. And I've talked to people that have been in the same situation and the things they went through and felt. The answer is knowledge. The answer isn't going, oh they are extremists, so I'm going to go to some group (any group) that accepts everyone (including people that reject hadiths, that hate the companions, that don't believe in hijab, that thing their are other prophets, that think their are other Gods, and all other deviant beliefs). The ultimate answer is knowledge. To get at that stage though, you have to make it interesting. You can't give some boring 4 hour lecture day in and day out, these people aren't ready for that. They aren't at that stage. Do some fun community things like: -potlucks -muslim entertainment night (the 1st one is taking place out here in my community, with muslim commedians, nasheed singers, and an imaam from a local masjid) - poetry reading (there was one at my masjid last friday, i wanted to go if it was good stuff like shazia's or maliha's type of poetry, but i didn't go cause i thought they were going to have rumi poetry (which they didn't)) -bowling -miniature golfing -halaqas etc. Build up the community ties first. People have to become friends and gain your trust before you can start to talk to them about serious issues, otherwise they will think you are lecturing. There's a whole way to go about doing this. The articles written just represent an extremist view, someone that doesn't understand what's going on, so he says, the heck with them, i'm going to go elsewhere and form my own group based on my own desires. |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| timbuktu |
| 08/07/03 at 00:04:53 |
| [slm] i think the thread "what sort of Islam will last in America" should be merged with this thread. while in the West, i was more a political, than a practicing muslim. & as i became progressively more liberal, (had been fairly so, having had the 'benefit' of co-education from school days), i even deluded myself into thinking that i was an agnostic. but men & women praying "side by side". well sister jannah: is that the part you agree with? what i have learnt is quite clear: the prophet [saw] said that there will be many sects & except one all will go to hell (at least for a time). When asked what sect it will be, he replied: "that which is on the same path as my sahaba & me". should that not help us clarify what sort of community we should belong to? dont give in to temptations & fatigue. brother bhaloo is right. |
| 08/07/03 at 00:24:29 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| BrKhalid |
| 08/07/03 at 08:39:39 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]The ultimate answer is knowledge. To get at that stage though, you have to make it interesting. You can't give some boring 4 hour lecture day in and day out, these people aren't ready for that. They aren't at that stage. Do some fun community things like: -potlucks -muslim entertainment night (the 1st one is taking place out here in my community, with muslim commedians, nasheed singers, and an imaam from a local masjid) - poetry reading (there was one at my masjid last friday, i wanted to go if it was good stuff like shazia's or maliha's type of poetry, but i didn't go cause i thought they were going to have rumi poetry (which they didn't)) -bowling -miniature golfing -halaqas etc. Build up the community ties first. People have to become friends and gain your trust before you can start to talk to them about serious issues, otherwise they will think you are lecturing.[/quote] Bhaloo you make a good point, knowledge is key. However, one of the problems we face in the UK [and I assume it happens in the US] is that these community activities are best organized by the Masjid which still retains the status of being the focus point of the community. But what do you do when those running our Masjids have no interest / inclination / desire to implement such programs? How do you impart knowledge when you can’t get the people in the first place? What we probably need is a “progressive” approach in teaching people traditional Islam and not vice versa. |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| Maliha |
| 08/07/03 at 13:01:52 |
| [slm] how wack! this whole discourse is pretty scary...a discourse that incorporates the struggles of the churches and synagogues and tries to implement the same solutions they had to *our* problems. I like Br. Khalid's "progressive" approach to our problems..but even this can be taken to an extreme. The community i am a part of now, is *huge* compared to my old one, and very inclusive Alhamdullillah. The price they pay though, makes me wonder if its worth it. Recently we had a community picnic, where every one, man, woman, and child, were cramped into this one tent (not a tent, those picnic structures they have in a park...i forgot the name)...anyway, it was extremely stuffy, and sisters had to literally squish themselves to make way between men. Those wearing hijab were a very small minority, most of them wearing heavy make up, with hair blowing in the wind..etc. i just wondered being in that setting what really distinguished us as a Muslim gathering? And is the price of wanting to be more inclusive worth the pretty mediocre adab and islamic ettiquette that you end up picking up along the way? Our Masjid tries to be very inclusive though, wal Alhamdullillah. The most brilliant idea was building an indoor basket ball court, which attracts throngs of teenage boys to come play..and of course end up staying for prayers etc. I don't know about some things in that article, like what's wrong with women praying in the back or behind a veil? isn't that the custom during the Rasul's [saw] time? And praying side by side??! :oand being "allowed" to lead the prayers??! :oI mean where are these people getting their hukums from? Also I am wary of anyone who doesn't call himself MUSLIM. I mean these labels, whether "traditional", "progressive", "Sufi", "Wahabi" etc... form a bad taste in my mouth. You are either Muslim, or you are searching for what lies outside the folds of the Shariah... (yeah call me extreme... ::) ) i mean seriously these things are reminiscent of that really scary hadith with the 70 sects each led by a shaytaan. ::shivers:: May Allah protect us from going astray. (Amin) Sis, FineWithBeingJustAMuslim, Maliha :-) [wlm] |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| timbuktu |
| 08/07/03 at 19:24:35 |
| [slm]sister Mystic, i agree we should all call ourselves "Muslims", & nothing alse. & i have not come across any a'alim calling himself or his group "wahabi", it is a title invented by the Turks & then British to demean the purifyng movement of Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab, & that of Syed Ahmed Barelvi & Shah Ismail Shaheed. so the title "Wahhabi Council of Religious Affairs" is again given by those who are against the concept of Tawheed & Jihad. There is indeed a body for Religious Fatwas, but it just would not be titled as such. although there is an "asr" reported in the Khutbas of Muhammad Junagarhi, that Abu Saeed Khudri (ra) was asked something to which he replied "and we are the ahl-e-Hadith". if one mixes with more pious ones, one tends to improve, (although jealousy & attempts to vilify them can set in) if one does so with non- or semi- practicing ones, one hopes to bring them back to the fold, but one may start accepting some of their deviations. so it looks like whatever you do, there will always be pitfalls, & hence this constant need of help & protection from Allah (swt) |
| 08/10/03 at 02:09:47 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| bhaloo |
| 08/08/03 at 09:28:04 |
| [slm] [quote author=BrKhalid link=board=ummah;num=1058341401;start=0#10 date=08/07/03 at 08:39:39] However, one of the problems we face in the UK [and I assume it happens in the US] is that these community activities are best organized by the Masjid which still retains the status of being the focus point of the community. But what do you do when those running our Masjids have no interest / inclination / desire to implement such programs? How do you impart knowledge when you can’t get the people in the first place? What we probably need is a “progressive” approach in teaching people traditional Islam and not vice versa. [/quote] Yes, exactly. Br. Khalid that's where you come in, I'm sure you have some great ideas. ;) |
| 08/08/03 at 09:29:36 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| BroHanif |
| 08/08/03 at 11:27:00 |
| Salaams, brother timbuktu my words exactly. Amazing isn't it that all of a sudden everything associated with Saudia Arabia is that it deals with wahabis and they certainly make them out as one hell of evil ********. Hey lets go back a few months wasn't it the Taliban who were the evil *******?. Yet as Muslims what can me and you do, the only answer lies in the Quran and Sunnah. Whatever dawahs group that we belong to we need to relate it back to Prophet of Allah. Numerous examples are there that we can take from his life from his way of working with prisoners, loving the orphans, the hungry, the homeless the sahabi who wanted to commit adultery etc etc. Let us all become tolerant like the prophet of Allah, nothing more, nothing less. We don't need to call oursleves modern, wahabi, or tablighi, just a Muslim who follows the commands of Allah shown by our Prophet [saw]. The prophet of Allah even secured a day learning for women and a day for men, the topics were interesting not boring ones. Our scholars need to take this idea forward and relate it to our time. [quote]However, one of the problems we face in the UK [and I assume it happens in the US] is that these community activities are best organized by the Masjid which still retains the status of being the focus point of the community. But what do you do when those running our Masjids have no interest / inclination / desire to implement such programs? [/quote] As for the mosques taking leadership, well its down to each brother and sister. Forget the mosques, work around them if necessary, educate the committe or the old boys, and if necesasry take it over and change it. Salaams Hanif |
| NS |
| 08/08/03 at 14:02:28 |
| BroHanif |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| Trustworthy |
| 08/08/03 at 12:47:25 |
| [slm] That's right and straight to the core. Islam lies in the Qur'an and Sunnah, other than that, it's something else. And Islam is also strict about gender mixing. The rules are their for our own protection and Allah (SWT) knows best. So to..."organized the first Progressive Islam conference, where women and men prayed side by side" is forbidden/haram. The only place where that's possible is Mecca at Masjid Al-Harrum. And even there, there's a huge gap between the men and women who has no choice but to pray side by side. Some times it's taken to the extreme, but sometimes that extremity is needed. Only the community knows their ppl best, right? My community has a masjid that is 2 stories. The upstairs are for the men and the downstairs are for he women. Two separate doors. Men have stairs built to lead them from the outside and us women had a door installed to lead us to our section. There is a camera upstairs so that we can listen and watch the Imam write a du'a or hadith, etc. I know if we weren't segragated like that, these young boys and girls would use that to their advantage. In NY, we entered thru the same door, no problem there either. At other masjids, women are upstairs and the men downstairs. Separate doors. The community knows their ppl and Allah (SWT) knows best. But again, Islam lies in the Qur'an and SUnnah. Ma-asalaama.... |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| bhaloo |
| 08/08/03 at 22:29:25 |
| [slm] One brother sent me this: That article in the ummah section of Madina about progressive islam is one of the worst i have ever read, ain't no way i can be on the board and see say a so called muslim belittle the deen and its ulama and be quite about it much less approve of it: 'Abdullah b. Mas'ud narrated that the Messenger of Allaah (may peace and blessings be upon him) said: Allaah has never sent a Prophet to a nation before me except he had amongst his people (his) disciples and companions who followed his ways and obeyed his command. Then there came after them their successors who said whatever they did not practise, and practised whatever they were not commanded to do. He who strove against them with his hand was a believer: he who strove against them with his tongue was a believer, and he who strove against them with his heart was a believer and beyond that there is no faith even to the extent of a mustard seed. Saheeh Muslim book of eemaan. |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| jannah |
| 08/08/03 at 22:36:51 |
| [wlm] What exactly did he object to? I think the article makes some very good points, especially about messed up practices in our masjids in the US that turn ppl off from Islam. As for hijab, it's true it's fard, but it's also true that the majority of muslim women here do not wear hijab, so what masjids and organizations are doing is completely excluding/alienating them and not helping give them a chance to grow at all. When you have things like that, you can't not expect them to go out and want to start their own "inclusive" type of islam. It's either that or leave Islam. They want their 'progressive' islam because the rest of us are not following the true principles of islam. Sounds like another case of shame on us. [quote] Far from moving toward inclusiveness in the way they deal with women, mosques seem to be doing the opposite. [/quote] [quote]Another element that is driving progressive Muslims away from traditional mosques is the preoccupation with literalism and the imposition of foreign customs on a faith that prides itself on its universalism.[/quote] |
| 08/08/03 at 22:40:21 |
| jannah |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| Maliha |
| 08/08/03 at 22:40:50 |
| [slm] Someone told me that in Fiqh books there is an allowance for a woman to lead prayers if she's the qualified one in the room??? is this true? i have never heard it before... has anyone heard of it? can someone give me references? please no opinions. sis, Maliha :-) [wlm] |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| Tesseract |
| 08/08/03 at 23:29:43 |
| Assalamu 'alaikum, [quote]Someone told me that in Fiqh books there is an allowance for a woman to lead prayers if she's the qualified one in the room is this true? i have never heard it before... has anyone heard of it? can someone give me references? please no opinions. [/quote] Question: Can women pray in congregation ( Jamaah ) with a woman performing as Imaam ? Answer: Praise be to Allaah. It is not prescribed for women to recite the adhaan and iqaamah as it is for men. If a woman does recite the adhaan and iqaamah, it may be one of the three following scenarios: 1 – She recites the adhaan and iqaamah for a group of men only, or for a mixed group of men and women. This is not prescribed in Islam and her adhaan and iqaamah for a group of men do not count 2 – She recites them for a group of women only. 3 – Or she recites them for herself when she is alone. It is permissible for her to recite the adhaan for a group of women or for herself, but it is not like the case with men. For men it is more emphatically required, whereas for women, if they give the adhaan it is permissible, and if they do not, it is also permissible. If a woman does recite the adhaan, she must keep her voice low and make it just loud enough for her companions to hear. If a woman says the iqaamah for herself or for a group of women, that is better and is closer to what is mustahabb, but if she does not do that, the prayer is still valid. With regard to a woman leading the prayers and acting as an imaam, one of the two following scenarios may apply: 1 – A woman leading men, or a mixed group of men and women. It is not correct for a woman to lead men in prayers at all, regardless of whether it is a fard (obligatory) prayer or a naafil (supererogatory) prayer. 2 – A woman leading women in prayer. It is mustahabb for women to pray together (in jamaa’ah) when they get together in a place. One of them should lead the others, but she should stand with them in the middle of the row. It is permissible and correct for a woman to lead other women in prayer. From Wilaayat al-Mar’ah fi’l-Fiqh al-Islami (www.islam-qa.com) Wassalam. |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| bhaloo |
| 08/09/03 at 03:06:17 |
| [slm] As brother B.O.I. has pointed out, alhumdullilah, it is only among other women, a woman can't lead men in prayer. [quote] What exactly did he object to? [/quote] Most likely the comments that others made in the thread. I don't get what you liked in the article, because the way I see it is its just someone ranting about how they don't want to follow Islamic rules. Maybe you can explain? ??? [quote] I think the article makes some very good points, especially about messed up practices in our masjids in the US that turn ppl off from Islam. [/quote] Can you give me some examples? [quote] As for hijab, it's true it's fard, but it's also true that the majority of muslim women here do not wear hijab, so what masjids and organizations are doing is completely excluding/alienating them and not helping give them a chance to grow at all. [/quote] I guess I don't understand what you are trying to convey here. You don't think they should wear hijab in the masjid? or? explain. :) |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| jannah |
| 08/09/03 at 05:43:12 |
| [wlm] Well I think we should take the time to read both articles very carefully to see what is being said here and to really reflect on it, before jumping down the guys neck calling him a 'progressive bid'ahi anti-sunnah non-practicing whatever'.. not that anyone did of course... The first article is talking about how the US gov't would love to see a kind of Islam that accepts US hegemony and is in truth pretty hypocritical in its 'calling for the doors of ijtihad to open' in order to propogate it's own superior-manifest-destiny-political-status-quo agenda. Then he talks about how some groups call themselves moderate or mainstream, but have seriously strange ideas/fatwas <-- which is where the no bras over 40 rule comes in or we could go on to talk about women not driving in saudi etc etc Other groups who also call themselves moderate and mainstream talk about participation and shura are in reality "sexist, racist, bigoted, authoritarian, and exclusionary practice". I can't disagree with that.. I know alot of Muslim groups in the US that are like that. Also the author warns ppl about any one group becoming "an exclusive interpretation ob the Truth" and "monopolizing the faith". Can't disagree there either.. we can all see the negative consequences of that happenning.. I've seen that too, although I can also add that there are alot of groups in the US that are not like that and work together and have a very unified views and ideas of islam. Then the article goes on to talk about how there is a large number of muslims that are disenfranchised from masjids and imams. Have to agree with that too... I mean do we see that most masjids have really viable, popular programs for the youth? Do we see programs to help the poor Muslims in the community? or converts? women? ppl needing help? Or practical, inspirational type things to increase people's Iman instead of fiqh classes? Or Imams that actually can relate to their audience or even can speak English?? I could go on forever, but this 'alienation' is actually addressed better in the second article. Lastly he kind of says here that Muslims in the US will either leave Islam, looking for guidance & open support elsewhere because they have become so alienated from their masjids or organizations. Or that that they will develop a new kind of islam that is more inclusive of everyone ie -- this 'progressive' islam. .. I agree that those alternatives are possibilities... I don't know about you guys but I've seen many many people alienated from Islam somehow or another and they end up leaving islam or developing their own version of it. What's the solution? Muslims in general, our masjids, our imams, our organizations need to be more inclusive, more tolerant, less sexist, and less racist.. Isn't that what Islam teaches? I think we have become so focused on rituals and fiqh and 'established ways' that we can't even see straight anymore. We talk about these words like 'unity' and 'ummah' and 'brotherhood', but what do they mean? It's just not in our hearts so it's not in our masjids, it's not in our communities. These are like fundamental principles in Islam, but they're just not there. I mean just here, this author is trying to point out some things that are wrong and messed up but almost everyone will pick out a few shady things he says and will jump on him for being the "progressive bid'ahi anti-sunnah non-practicing whatever'". And that's dangerous.. because that means we've just stopped -- stopped listening, stopped changing our wrongs, stopped caring. Why do we even ask what's wrong with our ummah? It's right there. The second article goes in depth about this 'alienation' from mosques and imams because they are foreign born and trained, do not understand this society, what is taught in mosques is not transfering to real life, women are relegated to the basement, have to use second class doors, are forced to listen to lectures 'blind'. Worse, women are systematically excluded from participation and leadership. Cultural standards are enforced in the mosques instead of Islam. Khutbahs are in English, people only focus on the external, etc etc.... I'll tell you the honest truth... if I had lived in some of the communities I've visited Allahu alam if I'd ever even try to be a good Muslim.. I would just look at them and say 'if that's Islam i don't want it'!! Anyway the article then goes into this "progressive movement" and like any type of movement by people alienated by the mainstream.. Allah only knows where it's going. They're sheep away from the flock so they'll end up going any which way. So what "progressive islam" am i in favor of? One that is more tolerant of people, less judgemental, less 'picky', more open, more unified, more open to ppls needs, one that looks towards the whole horizon and not a slice of it. And so on, some would say that this is just calling people back to Islam... maybe it is.. but i know a whole heck of alot of ppl aren't doing it and aren't willing to do it either. |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| Maliha |
| 08/09/03 at 07:54:04 |
| [slm] Mashaallah Jannah you raise some good points. I was listening to Sh. Hamza Yusuf's dajjal tape, and he said that towards the end of times, one of the signs, is that the Masajids will be *full* but the hearts will be divided. He said that Muslim hearts will have rancor towards eachother, and become closer to the people of the book, that resulted in factions, divisions, and hate amongst them. It really scared me on two levels. I could totally see what the "community" does, and the "alienation" going on and the total "disenfranchisment" on a large level. I could see the "Ummah" being "fragmented", I could see how "ethnically" divided we are, and how "wack" the treatment of women is, and all these negative "isms" on a large scale. But the other day I went to the Masjid, and it's like Allah put my specs inside my soul. I was waiting for a lecture to start, and was doing what I usually love doing. People watching. 8) It was very innocent, I was just sitting doing, absentmindedly doing dhikr, watching people come in and out, some praying, sisters chilling, kids running around etc. Then my thoughts went to specific people I saw, I just noted "very Unjudgementally" how certain sisters were dressed, how people interacted, the casual barrier between bros and sisters, how "loud" and "obnoxious" those kids are...really. I watched the *very* flashy teenagers come in and out...i watched... Then when it was time to pray, we all stood side by side....and my heart simply gave way. Cuz Sh. Hamza Yusuf's words came to mind. The division of the hearts, though we were standing side by side. I realized for the first time, that I was the *biggest* problem. There I was for a good 15 mins or so, simply staring, "i" on one side, "them" on the other...I felt for the first time how hypocritical "i" really am...for here i am standing side by side with the same sisters that I had "unjudgementally" decreed were not dressed "modestly" enough for the Masjid. I was amongst the signs of the day of judgement. me. not them. me. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( i spent the night weeping at the realization of another dimension of my lowliness. I am currently reading this books "The seven habits of highly effective people"..OMG! I think *every* Muslim should read it. It's a really brilliant book, that draws a lot from the deep principles of Islam that we have completely forgotten...it's amazing...cuz for the umpteenth time I have realized just how truly universal our principles are...Walhamdullillah. One of the things he talks about is the difference between Reactive people (which most of us, especially i, fall in this category)..these are the perpetually victimized people, they see the "system", society, world, jobs, "ummah", etc. as being the problem. The problem is always "out" there and never ever inside their own selves. The Proactive people are those who see the set of conditions they have to work in as basically just facts of life, and they try to figure out the best way to increase *their* *own* circles of influence. They work with what they have, and end up transcending so many barriers, accomplishing what others may see as impossible, simply cuz of that will...that infinite human potential that lies inside us to be able to out survive the most intolerable conditions and emerge victorious. These proactive people see life's challenges as simple road blocks that test their true mettle..they have a mission and that mission is far more important to worry about then what is around them, and what they seemingly can *not* accomplish... Subhana Allah :-[ I found a lot of the Tazkiya material congruent with this book....Inshaallah I will write more on this later...in another thread perhaps... i was just hoping to illustrate something...hope it didn't get lost in all that jargon :P sis, Maliha :-) [wlm] |
| Re: Progressive Islam in the US? |
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| timbuktu |
| 08/09/03 at 09:28:02 |
| [slm] now that sister jannah has told us what she wants in "progressive" islam, well i raise my hand in favor. i rather think that it is a problem of the born muslims, not the reverts. & i apologise for falling into the trap of not listening & being judge-mental, as sister azizah said. you in the expatriate community have inherited this from us: we have the same problems in our traditional muslim lands, & no matter what we do, the divisions keep on increasing. not just in the mosque or anything to do with ibadah, we are back-biting all the time and at all places. why? isn't there a Hadith that if you do not stand together with no gaps between you (feet to touch each other), Allah will put separation in your hearts, or something to that effect? & sister Mystic is right. i have to start with myself. no more cribbing. no more relating stories of other ppl's shortcomings with relish. no more adverse comments on others. |
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