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Consequences of Many ....
lucid9
07/16/03 at 09:53:16
This is in the vein of the of the previous thread about an interesting hadith referring to women making up most of the people in hell.  

Its kind of cheesy, since its a bit mathy and deduces the math consequences of women going to hell.  If you don't want to follow the math, just skip to the end to read the conclusions.  (I did something very stupid and can't concentrate on my work, so that's why i'm typing up this :) )

We start with the following givens…

1)      the hadith about women making up the majority of the inhabitants of Hell
2)      the presumption that anybody who dies on disbelief will enter hell

Let  

n_w =  the number of nonmuslim women
m_w =  the number of  muslim women

n_m =  the number of nonmuslim men
m_m =  the number of muslim men

also let the variables  x and y be numbers between 0 and 1, such that

0 <  x  < 1  and  0  < y  <  1

and that the number of muslim men entering hell is           =  x m_m
and that the number of muslim women  entering hell is     =  y m_w

Then the ratio of the number or women to men in hell is

Number of women in hell                                                        n_w + y m_w
--------------------                                          =             ------------------
Number of men in hell                                                                              n_m + x m_m

Since, presumably (by assumption 2) all the non-muslims enter hell, and half of the nonmuslims  are women and half are men, then

n_w  = (Nonmuslims) /  2  
n_m  = (Nonmuslims) /  2

Also, since presumably half of all the muslims are men and half are women,

m_w  = (Muslims) /  2  
m_m  = (Muslims) /  2

then

Number of women in hell                                              Nonmuslims + y Muslims
--------------------                     =           ---------------------------
Number of men in hell                                                     Nonmuslims + x Muslims

Now by assumption 1, the above ratio must be much greater than 1, i.e




Nonmuslims + y Muslims
----------------------                            >>   1
Nonmuslims + x Muslims


Now suppose that the number of non-muslims is much greater than the number of muslims.  Then the above equation can never be true.  The only way the above can be true is if the number of muslims is comparable or much greater than the number of non-muslims.  This is because if muslims greatly outnumber non-muslims, the above approximately reduces to

y Muslims
--------                  >>   1
x Muslims

which can be true if

y >> x.

So we come to a very interesting conclusion:   --- that the total number of muslims  from Adam to the day of judgement greatly outnumbers the number of non-muslims.  This means

(a)      Because the vast majority of people have yet to be born (assuming the world doesn’t end very soon), that in the future basically everybody will be muslim.

(b)      If the world ends very soon, then the vast number of people throughout human history were muslim

(c)  Alternatively, the vast majority of people who we think of as nonmuslims are really muslims.   This is a very interesting conclusion because it implies that possibly in the past, present and future, the majority of non-muslims were, are and will be muslim and will/did not die on disbelief!

See how far a little bit of math  can take you!!   Note, don’t take the following too seriously, as I only thought it up on my way home from a football match.

07/20/03 at 02:38:12
jannah
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
Trustworthy
07/16/03 at 12:37:37
[slm]

:D  Niiiice.  Don't get it, but uh...don't take this personal, but boy you have too much time on your hands and you must not been drivin when in this deep thought.

Ma-salaama....
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
Yousef
07/16/03 at 12:54:14
:D Well you do have some Math flaws...But that is Okay

[color=green]The first hadeeth was narrated by al-Bukhaari (6529) from Abu Hurayrah, that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The first one to be called on the Day of Resurrection will be Adam. He will be shown his progeny and it will be said, ‘This is your father Adam.’ He will say, ‘Here I am at Your service.’ He will say: ‘Bring forth those who are to be sent to Hell from among your progeny.’ He will say, ‘O Lord, how many should I bring forth?’ He will say, ‘Bring forth from every hundred ninety nine.’” They said: “O Messenger of Allaah, if ninety nine are taken from every hundred of us, what will be left of us?” He said, “My ummah, among the other nations, is like a white hair on a black bull.”

The second hadeeth was narrated by al-Bukhaari ( 3348 ) and Muslim (222) from Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri (may Allaah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah will say, ‘O Adam!’ and he will say, ‘Here I am at Your service, and all goodness is in Your hand.’ He will say, ‘Bring forth those who are to be sent to Hell.’ He will say, ‘Who are those who are to be sent to Hell?’ He will say, ‘From every thousand, nine hundred and ninety nine.’ At that point the young will turn grey, every pregnant female will abort, and the people will appear intoxicated although they are not. But the punishment of Allaah is severe.” They said, “O Messenger of Allaah, which of us will be that one?” He said, “Be of good cheer, for there will be one man from among you and one thousand from among Ya’jooj and Ma’jooj.” Then he said, “By the One in Whose hand is my soul, I hope that you will be one quarter of the people of Paradise,” and they said, “Allaahu akbar!” Then he said, “I hope that you will be one third of the people of Paradise,” and they said, “Allaahu akbar!” Then he said, “I hope that you will be half of the people of Paradise,” and they said, “Allaahu akbar!” Then he said, “Among the people you are like a black hair on the hide of a white bull, or like a white hair on the hide of a black bull.”

According to the first hadeeth, the number of those who will be saved on the Day of Resurrection is ten in a thousand. According to the second hadeeth it is one in a thousand.

The scholars have reconciled between these two ahaadeeth in several ways, such as the following:

1 – The numbers are not to be taken literally, so stating a particular number does not mean that there may not be more than that. What is meant by the two numbers mentioned in the two hadeeth is the small number of believers and the large number of kaafirs.

2 – The hadeeth of Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri may be understood as referring to all the progeny of Adam, so there will be one in every thousand (who goes to Paradise), and the hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah may be understood as referring to everyone except Ya’jooj and Ma’jooj, so that the number is ten in every thousand. This is supported by the fact that Ya’jooj and Ma’jooj are mentioned in the hadeeth of Abu Sa’eed but not in the hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah.

3 – It may be that the division will happen twice: once involving all the nations who came before this ummah, when the number will be one in every thousand, and again for this ummah only, when the number will be ten in every thousand.

4 – It may be that what is meant by “those who are to be sent to Hell” is the kaafirs and the sinners [from among the Muslims] who will enter it, so that from every thousand nine hundred and ninety nine kaafirs are sent, and from every hundred ninety-nine sinners are sent.

These answers were mentioned by al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar in Fath al-Baari, 11/390.

And Allaah knows best.
[/color]

[url=http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=22836&dgn=3]Source[/url]

;D
07/16/03 at 12:55:21
Yousef
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
lucid9
07/16/03 at 13:12:22
[quote author=Yousef link=board=madrasa;num=1058359996;start=0#2 date=07/16/03 at 12:54:14] :D Well you do have some Math flaws...But that is Okay
[/quote]

What are my math flaws? Please elaborate.

[slm]
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
theOriginal
07/16/03 at 13:18:12
[slm]

That's pretty cool.

Comments:

So, the nerd that I am, I pulled out this sentence of your proof: "Since, presumably (by assumption 2) all the non-muslims enter hell, and half of the nonmuslims  are women and half are men"

In essence, that's your third assumption.  Now, (nerd that I am), I realized that your third assumption is false, or has a high probability that it is false, because generally speaking, there is (and has always been) more women then men on earth.  Reason (we'll limit this reason, because it's the only part I remember reading in my OAC bio text...the other half of my reason is a little dodgy) being that the infant mortality rates in males is higher.  You can't look at the number of people who are BORN, but rather look at the number of people who DIE after reaching adulthood (after being responsible for their actions)...

Anyway, drawing limits, your equation pretty much falls apart because of that assumption, because, even if there was, effectively, a 50/50 split in the population, the number 1 will never be greater than 1.  (That's essentially what you're trying to prove somehow).

Second comment...about the Hadith...I know it says that the number of women entering hell will be greater than the number of men entering hell...

But let's examine that more closely...it never says that the number of women entering heaven will be less than the number of men entering heaven.  (Sisters don't despair, there's hope yet.)

But otherwise...it's really good...Maybe if you can overcome that third assumption....

It further resolves one of my raging issues and yet propogates another one.  

Oh well.

Wasalaam.
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
lucid9
07/16/03 at 13:32:06
[slm]

The argument is really an argument about order or magnitudes.  The infant mortality rate is a very small effect, and i don't think it will affect the answer.  

For example, suppose the the number of women reaching puberty is 10% more than the number of men reaching puberty.  Then

n_w = 1.1 n_m
m_w = 1.1 m_m

Then this multiplies the ratio of the number of  women entering hell to the number of men entering hell by only a factor of 1.1.  Thus the ratio is increased only by 10% .
This is a very small enhancement and not enough to take the ratio from say 1 to say 10.

Now if the number of women entering hell is only slightly larger than the number of men, say by 10% or 15% then the infant mortality rate would  be something to worry about.   And in that case, it would by very nice -- because although not equal, the number of women entering hell would roughly be equal to the number of men, and not say 10 times more.  

Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
Nomi
07/16/03 at 17:05:24
[slm]

heh.. nice post bro. Okay lemme do some introspection but b4 that answer this Q?

[quote author=lucid9 link=board=madrasa;num=1058359996;start=0#0 date=07/16/03 at 09:53:16]
Note, don’t take the following too seriously, as I only thought it up on my way home from a football match.
[/quote]

Tell me honestly, how many headers did you do in that match?? :P.

[quote author=lucid9 link=board=madrasa;num=1058359996;start=0#0 date=07/16/03 at 09:53:16]
Now by assumption 1, the above ratio must be much greater than 1, i.e

Nonmuslims + y Muslims
----------------------                            >>   1
Nonmuslims + x Muslims

[/quote]

Its been long that i haven't touched maths but what if we just invert the equation above ? would it then prove that there are more men in hellfire ? i.e.

Nonmuslims + x Muslims
----------------------                            >>   1
Nonmuslims + y Muslims

[and perpetuate the change further] ?

Just a thought
[slm]
Asim Zafar.

Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
Abu_Hamza
07/16/03 at 19:25:12
why does it have to be >> 1?  

why not just > 1?

the hadith only states "the majority", which does not necessarily imply that they are *much greater than* the number of men.

having said that, i'm afraid your conclusions dont hold much water.

wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh :)
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
panjul
07/17/03 at 00:56:54
Oh my gosh. NERDS

::)

:'(
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
a_Silver_Rose
07/17/03 at 01:28:10
LOL panjul i so agree
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
theOriginal
07/17/03 at 04:35:58
[slm]

One more comment....I just redid the whole problem last night (couldn't sleep...)

Nonmuslims + y Muslims
----------------------        >>   1  
Nonmuslims + x Muslims

you can't just conclude that if x MUST BE > y that muslims MUST be > nonmuslims.  

That's mathematically incorrect, because the operative is not multiplication, it's addition.  (correct me if i'm wrong).

Wasalaam.
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
lucid9
07/17/03 at 07:59:31
[quote author=JustOne link=board=madrasa;num=1058359996;start=0#10 date=07/17/03 at 04:35:58]

Nonmuslims + y Muslims
----------------------        >>   1  
Nonmuslims + x Muslims

you can't just conclude that if x MUST BE > y that muslims MUST be > nonmuslims.  
.[/quote]

Sorry to cause you to lose sleep.  The above fraction will be  greater than 0.5 whenever y>x .   But that is not the point.  The point is when will the fraction be much greater than 1?  

The  thing is you have nonmuslims in the numerator and the denominator.  Thus if Nonmuslims >> Muslims, then the above fraction will only slightly be greater than 0.5.  If Nonuslims = Muslims, then the fraction will only be (1+y)/(1+x), which is not a large number since x and y are less than 1.  The, only way the fraction can be >> 1 is if the muslims part of the fraction dominates the non-muslims part of the fraction.  In that case  the fraction reduces to

y Muslims
----------
x Muslims

and the above can be >> 1 if y >>x.   Basically the condition that

Muslims >> Nonmuslims

allows a solution of the inequality.   Without it the inequality at the top of the page could not be true.  

(If it helps, just factor out Muslims,  and call r = Nonmuslims/Muslims, and then the inequality becomes simply

r + y
----------------------        >>   1  
r +  x

in which case the above is true can only be true if r << 1, and y>>x)

Finally in response to others:

(a) What is wrong with being a nerd?.  If  it weren't for nerds, then you wouldn't have the internet, and supernerds like Jannah wouldn't exist, and this site wouldn't exist either.

(b) Brothers, instead of just shooting me down, why don't you give some constructive criticism?

(c) I am using >> 1, instead of just >1, because presumably only in that case would one easily be able to see that the number of females is greater than males.  In mean, if the women in hell are only 10% more than the males, it would have been very difficult for the Prophet to spot the difference using just casual observation.  You can only see discrepencies easliy when they are obvious, or in this case when the number of women is vastly more than the number of men.  Now, of course, nobody knows what the Prophet saw, so Allah knows best. But, at one level it seems a fair assumption, though by all means a not necessarily accurate one. :)  
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
bhaloo
07/17/03 at 09:24:06
[slm]

[quote]
If  it weren't for nerds, then you wouldn't have the internet, and supernerds like Jannah wouldn't exist, and this site wouldn't exist either.  
[/quote]

Supernerd Jannah, care to comment?   :D

Since I'm not a nerd, I'd like to ask the following.  Since when are there many more Muslims then NonMuslims, or for that matter even more Muslims then NonMuslims.  Isn't the opposite true? ???


[quote author=lucid9 link=board=madrasa;num=1058359996;start=0#11 date=07/17/03 at 07:59:31]
  Basically the condition that

Muslims >> Nonmuslims

allows a solution of the inequality.
 [/quote]
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
lucid9
07/17/03 at 10:10:16
[slm]

Here the number of nonmuslims is taken to be  the total number from he beginning of time to the day the world ends.  Similarly, the number of muslims is taken to be the total number of muslims created from the beginning of humanity to the end of the world.

So this would tend to imply (one possible conclusion) that *in the future*, there would be a great population explosion and that most of the people in that future would be muslims. :)

Now, there is a subtlety related to the following:

When the prophet saw the inhabitants of Hell, did he see all the people from  his past, present and his future?  Since Allah transcends time and so does the unseen, and hell is part of the unseen, you might think that the prophet look upon the total number of people in Hell (as I assumed).  In any case, there is no point in arguing about it, since we know nothing about the unseen, and have have no data to use to conclude things about it.
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
Trustworthy
07/17/03 at 12:17:29
[slm]

You guys are all wrong.  I mean the hadith (atleast I think that's where you're getting all of this from) is only applied to Muslim women in this case which makes your nonmuslim probability irrelevant to the whole equation.

Try again.

Ma-asalaama.....
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
lucid9
07/18/03 at 12:59:45
[slm]

Are you sure?  I am not so sure.  Maybe an interested nerd  with  Fathal Baari can  look up the interpretation of the haditih?  After all the hadith says

"I was shown the Hell-Fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful....".
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
Trustworthy
07/18/03 at 15:49:31
[slm]

"When the Prophet (p.b.u.h) was asked about the reasons behind this, he answered that it is because women mistreat their husbands, and have weaker brain and religion than men. These critics ignore the rest of the Hadeeth and stop short at that point, without including the part which explains the meaning of Hadeeth. The Prophet (p.b.u.h) explained it by saying that women are not allowed to perform praying and fasting during their menstrual period, which results in the decrease of their prayers, and that leads to their religion being weaker than that of men. As for their weaker brain, the Prophet (p.b.u.h) explained it by saying that a testimony of two women equals that of one man as mentioned in ayah 282 of surat Albaqarah. This ayah talks about financial dealings, and is in no way insulting to women, since the basic role of women is family care, which requires her to stay at home most of the time. So if she happens to be where these dealings, she is most likely engrossed in her own affairs, and does not pay much attention to other people’s affairs, which makes it necessary to have another witness to insure the credibility of the testimony.

Does going to Hellfire apply to all women? The answer is definitely “NO”. It applies to those women who mistreat their husbands, do not make up for the days which they did not fast, and do not make voluntary prayers to cover the shortage in their prayers which made them eligible to enter Hellfire."

And to all you mathmeticians out there...

99.9% of humans will be in hell. Sahih Bukhari 004.055.567
The world population has been growing exponentially, let's just say that today's population is about 1/5 (I think may 1/2 or 1/3 is more realistic) that of all people ever lived. Thus, out of thirty billion people, only 30 million make it to paradise, that is about 2.5% of all Muslims today! If we consider this percentage in terms of today's population, then we are looking at 1.2 million Muslims entering paradise as opposed to 1.2 billion Muslims worldwide! There is scary indeed.

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 567:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
The Prophet said, "Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection), 'O Adam.' Adam will reply, 'Labbaik wa Sa'daik', and all the good is in Your Hand.' Allah will say: 'Bring out the people of the fire.' Adam will say: 'O Allah! How many are the people of the Fire?' Allah will reply: 'From every one thousand, take out nine-hundred-and ninety-nine.' At that time children will become hoary headed, every pregnant female will have a miscarriage, and one will see mankind as drunken, yet they will not be drunken, but dreadful will be the Wrath of Allah." The companions of the Prophet asked, "O Allah's Apostle! Who is that (excepted) one?" He said, "Rejoice with glad tidings; one person will be from you and one-thousand will be from Gog and Magog."

The Prophet further said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is, hope that you will be one-fourth of the people of Paradise." We shouted, "Allahu Akbar!" He added, "I hope that you will be one-third of the people of Paradise." We shouted, "Allahu Akbar!" He said, "I hope that you will be half of the people of Paradise." We shouted, "Allahu Akbar!" He further said, "You (Muslims) (compared with non Muslims) are like a black hair in the skin of a white ox or like a white hair in the skin of a black ox (i.e. your number is very small as compared with theirs)."

**************
I will comment later since I have work today.

Ma-asalaama...
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
Trustworthy
07/18/03 at 18:59:18
[slm]

Ok.  So according to this hadith, if I understand it correctly.  The Prophet (SAW) is comparing Muslim women to Muslim men.  More of us will abide in the Hellfire then our brothers.

I concluded to this thought from getting the information above.  Now we all know that unbelieving women will enter Hellfire anyways as to the unbelieving men.  But since only 1% of humanity will enter Paradise, then we can safely say that that small percentage is of Muslims. insha-Allah. Allahu Alim.

"one person will be from you and one-thousand will be from Gog and Magog."  

And b/c of this fact then well, you are better at math then I am.  Calculus has been long gone since the days of High School.  You don't use that stuff later in life unless you're a mathmetician or enginerr of some builder sort.


Ma-asalaama....
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
lucid9
07/19/03 at 14:59:41
[quote author=Trustworthy link=board=madrasa;num=1058359996;start=15#16 date=07/18/03 at 15:49:31] "When the Prophet (p.b.u.h) was asked about the reasons behind this, he answered that it is because women mistreat their husbands, and have weaker brain and religion than men [/quote]

Sorry for being a pain.  But what is the source for this?

[quote]
This ayah talks about financial dealings, and is in no way insulting to women, since the basic role of women is family care, which requires her to stay at home most of the time.
[/quote]

Gee, I know lots of women who would find this insulting.  Are you sure about the source?  I always thought the two to one witness thing was because women were more easily intimidated because they are physically weaker than threatening males.

[quote]
Does going to Hellfire apply to all women? The answer is definitely “NO”. It applies to those women who mistreat their husbands, do not make up for the days which they did not fast, and do not make voluntary prayers to cover the shortage in their prayers which made them eligible to enter Hellfire."
[/quote]

This is pretty interesting. It seems so applicable to males.   Lots of guys don't even pray, let alone the nawwafil, and lots mistreat their wives nowadays, and lots don't fast, etc.

[quote]
99.9% of humans will be in hell. Sahih Bukhari 004.055.567
The world population has been growing exponentially, let's just say that today's population is about 1/5 (I think may 1/2 or 1/3 is more realistic) that of all people ever lived. Thus, out of thirty billion people, only 30 million make it to paradise, that is about 2.5% of all Muslims today! If we consider this percentage in terms of today's population, then we are looking at 1.2 million Muslims entering paradise as opposed to 1.2 billion Muslims worldwide! There is scary indeed.
[/quote]

I have asked about this before (i.e. the 1 out of 100 getting to heaven, etc),  and I have always been told that the 99  refers  to nonmuslims.   In the last   part of the hadith  in which an alarmed sahabi asks about the fate of the muslims, he is essentially told not to worry himself sick because it really refers to muslims.  Allah knows best.    I mean the Prophet said

[color=Purple]
He said, "Rejoice with glad tidings; one person will be from you and one-thousand will be from Gog and Magog."
[/color]

and that one person is referring to all the muslims, I think.  

[quote]
I will comment later since I have work today.
[/quote]

Gosh, i'm really sorry.  I'm wasting your time. Its not important for you to waste your time to respond to my posts   It's not like they are earth-shattering or important or that other people are particuarly interested in them. :)  Sometimes I just get bored, and post because I have nothing better to do.  


BTW to all:  the math argument, given the assumptions seem pretty ironclad.  So something fishy seems to be going on.  Either my assumptions are dramatically wrong, or the hadith is misleading, or my conclusions are true.  I mean the logic of my argument seems to be perfectly fine.  Interesting, huh?!
07/19/03 at 15:03:35
lucid9
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
WhiteSomali
07/19/03 at 22:07:19
[slm]

What about Yajuj and Majuj? They all goin to Hell ain they? And there's way more of them than everyone else.

[wlm]
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
Trustworthy
07/19/03 at 23:30:31
[slm]

WS...Yajuj and Majuj is Gog and Magog and all of is destined for Jahanam.  

Now as for L9...
"Gosh, i'm really sorry.  I'm wasting your time. Its not important for you to waste your time to respond to my posts"

I hope that was sarcasm b/c when I said that I had to work was not meant as an insult.  I posted what my job was and that day was pretty busy.  But I remembered the hadith and thought that it would help.  If you felt insulted by it, I apologize.

Anyways...I will find the source for you.  No worries.  Give me about 1/2 hour.

Ma-asalaama....
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
WhiteSomali
07/19/03 at 23:34:18
[slm]  ;D

Sis Trustworthy I know the English words for Yajuj and Majuj :P What I meant is that they aren't factored into lucid9's equations,  and neither is the hadith that says (of course I ain know the exact words  ::)) Muslims will be strangers, we started as strangers and again near the end will revert to strangers, AKA we gon be very different from the disbelievers.

[slm]
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
Trustworthy
07/19/03 at 23:53:29
[slm]

Oh Ok Bro WS.  I think the hadith includes all humanity from the beginning to end.  99.9 % in Jahanam and .1% in Jannah.  Not sure if that was included in any of the equations.   Why try to figure it out anyways?  Allahu Alim.

Ok so it took me less then 1/2 hour Bro L9.  The source I pasted it from is a website created by sisters from Saudi Arabia.  www.teh-bright-truth.com.

Here is the article I got off their site.  The Whole article.  It's interesting and I recommend all the sisters to read it.  May be I'll post it in the Akhwat thread later.
*************
ISLAM PROTECTS WOMEN

1-    Did Allah Prefer Men To Women?

When the subject of women in Islam is discussed, we are faced with three opinions to three different groups:

§     The first group calls for removing all kinds of restrictions, and for giving women absolute freedom to do whatever they please and to go wherever they want. This group imitates the Western societies, and wants to apply their system on Muslim women. No woman in her right mind believes that this group is doing what is in women's best interests, since everyone knows the humiliating status Western women suffer from.

§ The second group calls for applying Allah’s law on women.

§ The third group misinterprets some Islamic laws concerning women, and therefore, calls for depriving women of some of their rights, and restricting women's role to only that of housekeeping, and taking care of the husband and children.

These articles are intended to correct the misconceptions of the last group: -

The relationship between men and women :

- Allah created Adam from clay, and created Eve from Adam. Here we ask “Is it more honorable to be created from clay or from a human being?” No doubt, the answer is the last choice. Does this give women the right to claim that they are better than men?

- Allah (s.w.t) said to women  " æÞÑä Ýí ÈíæÊßä "“and stay in your houses“. This group interprets this Quranic verse as an imprisonment for women, considers it insulting for them, and makes it an excuse to call for women’s rights. The truth is that Islam does not forbid women from going out of their homes, but rather discourages it, restricts it to women’s needs, and puts rules and regulations for them to follow when they do go out as is told in the Quranic verse " æáÇ ÊÈÑÌä ÊÈÑÌ ÇáÌÇåáíÉ ÇáÃæáì " “ and display not yourselves with the display of the times of the former Paganism “. This verse is also misinterpreted by those who consider it a way of depriving a woman from her freedom, as if a woman can not be free unless she wanders in the middle of the streets needlessly, half naked, and with complete make up.

There is no limit to what a woman can wear when she and her husband are alone. She can also wear whatever she wants within the limits of decency in the presence of other women, and very close relatives; father, brothers, nephews and others. Does this mean that men are better than women?

Equality between men and women as conceived by Islam:

Islam holds women accountable for all kinds of religious rituals and duties.

Allah said  “then their Lord hearkened unto them saying: I let not the work of a worker amongst you to waste, man or woman one of you from the other“. This means that man and woman are equal in responsibility, and will be awarded or punished according to their actions.

Husbands and wives have duties towards one another. Each of them has an important role assigned to him, and will be accountable for it on the Day of Judgment.

Allah said:

" ÇáÑÌÇá ÞæÇãæä Úáì ÇáäÓÇÁ ÈãÇ ÝÖá Çááå ÈÚÖåã Úáì ÈÚÖ æÈãÇ ÃäÝÞæÇ ãä ÃãæÇáåã "

“ Men are overseers over women, by reason of that wherewith Allah hath made one of them excel over another, and by reason of that which they expend of their substance” which means that men are protectors and maintainers of women, because they have special capabilities.

Here we do not mean that the essence of man is preferred to that of woman, for they are twins descending from a single soul. Hence, it is a preference that does not underestimate woman’s humanity, because it arises from an organic difference, between woman and man, and not from a difference in essence or substance. Such a distinction should not give rise to grief, because to be favored by Allah is closely connected with the purification of souls, and not with an organic difference ordained by Allah’s wisdom to guarantee the continuity and integrity of the life of human beings.

Does this give either the man or the woman the right to claim privilege over the other?

In fact there are more Hadeeths urging to be kind to females than Hadeeths urging to be kind to males, like the Hadeeth which says “ Heavens is under the feet of mothers “

In addition, there is this Hadeeth: " Narrated Abu Huraira: a man came to Allah’s apostle and said “ O Allah’s apostle! Who is more entitled to be treated with the best companionship by me? ” The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said “your mother”. The man said, “Who is next?” The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said, “your mother” The man said, “ who is next?” The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said “your mother” The man asked for the fourth time “ who is next?” The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said “your father”.

In mathematical terms, the Prophet (p.b.u.h) gave the mother 75% and the father only 25%!

Does this give women the right to claim that they are better than men?

Inheritance:

Allah said:

“" íæÕíßã Çááå Ýí ÃæáÇÏßã ááÐßÑ ãËá ÍÙ ÇáÃäËííä  

“Allah enjoineth you in the matter of your children; the male will have as much as the portion of two females” which means a son has the ratio of two shares and the daughter has one share of what they inherit.

Critics of Islam consider this unfair and degrading for women. To distort Islam these people deliberately ignore the fact that women in Islam are not required to provide financially for anyone even for themselves, which leads us to say that a woman saves all the money she gets, but the man has to support his wife, himself, his children and sometimes his brothers and parents. So, who gains the most of this system?

Does this give men or women an excuse to claim that they are better than the other?

Women have weaker mind and religion:

Critics of Islam misinterpreted a Hadeeth, which encourages women to donate for charity, because most of Hellfire occupants are women. When the Prophet (p.b.u.h) was asked about the reasons behind this, he answered that it is because women mistreat their husbands, and have weaker brain and religion than men. These critics ignore the rest of the Hadeeth and stop short at that point, without including the part which explains the meaning of Hadeeth. The Prophet (p.b.u.h) explained it by saying that women are not allowed to perform praying and fasting during their menstrual period, which results in the decrease of their prayers, and that leads to their religion being weaker than that of men. As for their weaker brain, the Prophet (p.b.u.h) explained it by saying that a testimony of two women equals that of one man as mentioned in ayah 282 of surat Albaqarah. This ayah talks about financial dealings, and is in no way insulting to women, since the basic role of women is family care, which requires her to stay at home most of the time. So if she happens to be where these dealings, she is most likely engrossed in her own affairs, and does not pay much attention to other people’s affairs, which makes it necessary to have another witness to insure the credibility of the testimony.

Does going to Hellfire apply to all women? The answer is definitely “NO”. It applies to those women who mistreat their husbands, do not make up for the days which they did not fast, and do not make voluntary prayers to cover the shortage in their prayers which made them eligible to enter Hellfire.

Dowry:

Islam assigned the Muslim wife a dowry without putting any limit to it. Critics of Islam claim that by this the husband is buying his wife! This is an absurd accusation, since there is nothing equal to a Muslim soul. There is a Hadeeth where the Prophet (p.b.u.h) ordered a man to pay a dowry even if it was an iron ring. Does this imply that this wife was worth an iron ring? A dowry is a symbolic gesture from the husband to his wife to let her feel that he will be her supporter and provider, which should make her feel secure and close to him.

Divorce:

Islam discourages divorce to the degree that the Prophet (p.b.u.h) said in meaning “out of the permitted things, Allah hates divorce the most”. Islam places great importance to family life and well being. There are many Quranic verses and Hadeeth, which encourage both spouses to tolerate one another’s shortcomings, and promised who does those great rewards. In fact, there is a whole Quranic surah called “The Divorce“ which proves the importance of the family in Islam.

The Almighty said: “and among his signs is this, that He created for you mates from yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them; and He put love and mercy between you. Verily in that are signs for those who reflect “. Surat Al-Room ayah # 21

He also said “ and women shall have rights similar to the rights of men, and men are a degree above them, according to what is equitable“.

It is the degree of care, guardianship, and protection only. It does not permit man to trespass upon her rights or to tread upon her dignity.

Islam gives women freedom in two respects; namely marriage and property. No one has the right to force her to marry someone whom she dislikes. She has the right to refuse whom she disapproves of. The Messenger of God (p.b.u.h) has pointed this out by saying: “ marry not a widow without her consent, nor a virgin without her permission.” The Prophet (p.b.u.h) once annulled a marriage in which a virgin was forced to marry her cousin under pressure of her father for his own benefit.

There are situations when women have the right to divorce their husbands, but usually the right to obtain divorce is controlled by the husband. This does not give him a free hand to divorce anytime and whenever he pleases. Islam puts rules and regulations for divorce, which are explained in the Quranic surah “The Divorce“ which indicates how important marriage is. Islam critics did not let this pass without criticizing Islam for making divorce easier to get by man than woman, they want it to be the other way around claiming that it is insulting for women. What would have happened if this was the case, and women were in control of divorce? Most likely, these will contest it too claiming that it is insulting to men!

Recently a Muslim country facilitated the laws for women to obtain divorce, which resulted in the collapse of hundreds of families.

The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said “The best among you is the best towards his kin and I am the best towards my kin”.

Muslim women marrying non-Muslim:

Islam prohibits a Muslim woman from marrying a non-Muslim man. The Almighty Allah said “ and Allah shall not make for the infidels against the believers a way “ Surat Annisa (the women) # 141

The reason behind this is that since men are overseers over women who are supposed to obey them, this will threaten a woman’s faith and will cause great harm to her since he does not recognize Islam as a religion.

The bottom line of all of this is that the Almighty Allah created man and woman from a single soul, and made them equal in everything except some organic differences ordained by Allah’s wisdom to guarantee the continuity and integrity of the life of human beings.  

2- Women’s Going Out Of Their Homes:

Islam ordains that the man must provide his wife with all her needs, because a woman’s main duty is to build up a family, and to manage her house so as to live with her family in a relaxed, and comfortable atmosphere that promotes the activity required for the continuity of life, but this does not prevent her from doing work outside her home to satisfy a need or a desire in fields where she can perform her duties without any violation of her nature, and character so as to fulfill them successfully , according to her abilities.

What are those needs? :

§     Going to the mosque:

Islam encourages women to perform their prayers at home, and does not ordain on them the duty of praying in mosques like men, because this will be an extra burden on them, and will interrupt their household duties. At the same time, Islam gave them the free choice to do it if they wished.

The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said in meaning “do not forbid women from going to mosques, and praying at home is better for them“.

The rules for their going to mosques are: -

1.            Going to nighttime prayers

2.           Walking in a serene manner in the street, inside the mosque, and without having perfume on.

3.           Not mixing with men, and not praying in the front rows.

4.           Not making loud noises even if it was to correct the prayer leader in case he made a mistake. In this case, they should only clap their hands.

5.            Leaving the mosque as soon as the prayer is over.

6.     Women are allowed to participate in Eid prayers.

§     Going out to learn:

Learning is obligatory in Islam on all Muslims. In fact, the first Quranic surah which was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h), starts with the command “READ”. All Muslims are required to learn and seek the kind of knowledge necessary for this life and the Hereafter.

The kind of education women should learn is one of two: -

1-The obligatory kind of education which every woman must learn, because it is necessary for her to know about her religious duties, behavior, and how to take good care of her family.

2-The kind of education which is necessary for Muslims in general, like teaching, medical, nursing, and other fields of science and knowledge. If women doctors, teachers, or other jobs were needed, then it is the duty of the government to make it available and the duty of women to learn and fill that need. This does not include what some falsely call art like dancing, acting and singing, which Muslim women should avoid.

§     Going out to work:

Islam allows the woman to work outside her home in jobs which are compatible with her nature, any infringement on the nature that God has created in us and made us respond to, is considered a hindrance against the wisdom of Allah in creation, a cause for great psychological and physical pain, and will surely lead to the various troubles people suffer from. There is no way to regain happiness, delight and comfort in life except through submission to the wisdom of Allah and His wonderful creation, and practicing life as designed and facilitated by Him.

The rules for her working are: -

1. Her working hours should not consume all her time and energy, which might hamper her from performing her duties toward her family.

2. The kind of work should be suitable for her physically and mentally.

3. She should not mix with men.

4.  She should perform her job in a decent manner, and avoid putting herself in a suspicious situationæ which might do harm to her reputation.

§     Going shopping and visiting family and friends:

Women used to go shoppingæ and visit family and friends during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) The husband has the right to prevent her from doing so if he sees that it might cause her any harm.

The Quranic verse in which Allah (swt) said to women :

"æÞÑä Ýí ÈíæÊßä "

“and stay in your houses“

Followed by saying:

"æáÇ ÊÈÑÌä ÊÈÑÌ ÇáÌÇåáíÉ ÇáÃæáì"

“And display not yourselves with the display of the times of the former Paganism“ which indicates that the basic rule is for women to stay at home, but when it is necessary for them to go out, then they should follow the rule of abiding by the Islamic dress and not wearing make-up.

§     Women’s Travels:

Islam does not allow the woman to travel alone. It puts restrictions and regulations to protect her against being exposed to harm, and gives great concern for her safety and protection. Therefore, Islam requires that a man; father, brother or son must accompany her during her travels.

3.  Freedom of Expression:

During the lifetime of the Prophet (p.b.u.h) women used to have a say, and express their thoughts and opinions freely. He used to listen and follow their suggestions.

An example for that is the incident which happened at the time of Alhudaybiyah peace treaty, when the Prophet (p.b.u.h) made a peace deal with the Pagans, ordered the Muslims to slaughter their sacrifices, and shave their heads as a sign that they were ending their intention to perform Hajj and going back to Al-Madinah. Some of them did not feel happy about that, and even refused to do it, thinking that they were making concessions to the Pagans. This made the Prophet (p.b.u.h) unhappy and complained to his wife Um Salamah about it. She suggested that he goes out to them, and does the slaughtering and shaving in front of them, which he did. This made all Muslims do the same, which saved them from having further problems.

Muslim rulers also followed the footsteps of the Prophet (P.B.U.H), and gave women their right to express their opinions. An example for that is when the khaliefah Omar Ibn Al-Kahttab -may Allah be pleased with him- noticed a rise in the amount of dowries among Muslims, which hampered some single men from getting married, for they did not have that kind of money, so he wanted to limit it to a fixed amount as a maximum dowry. A woman opposed him by reminding him of the Quranic verse:-

" æÅä ÃÑÏÊã ÇÓÊÈÏÇá ÒæÌ ãßÇä ÒæÌ æÂÊíÊã ÅÍÏÇåä ÞäØÇÑÇð ÝáÇ ÊÃÎÐæÇ ãäå ÔíÆÇð ÃÊÃÎÐæäå ÈåÊÇäÇð æÅËãÇð ãÈíäÇð "

“And if ye intend to replace a wife by another, and ye have given the one of them a talent, take not back aught therefrom. Would ye take it back by slander and manifest sin.”

Omar -may Allah be pleased with him- admitted to his making a mistake, and announced to the people that a woman made the right decision while he made the wrong one.

Women migrated from Mecca to Al-Madinah, where the Prophet (P.B.U.H) provided them with care and protection. He also treated them the same as he treated men, when he conquered Mecca and took their pledge of allegiance.

Islam also gave grown-up girls the right to choose or refuse their future husbands. This is proved by many examples in Islamic books.

4.  Women and Jihad:

There are two rules concerning jihad: -

1- General duty: meaning that it is sufficient for a number of people to enroll in the army and is not an individual duty. This is usually the case in peace times.

2- Individual duty: meaning that it is the duty of every Muslim, male and female to enroll in the army when the enemy attacks, which is equal to being drafted, or obligatory military service nowadays.

Allah said :

íÇ ÃíåÇ ÇáÐíä ÂãäæÇ ÞÇÊáæÇ ÇáÐíä íáæäßã ãä ÇáßÝÇÑ ". “

“ O ye who believe! Fight the infidels who are near unto you “

So, women are not required to join the army unless they are needed there. This is by no means degrading or insulting them, to the contrary Islam considers motherhood and caring for the family an everlasting necessity, and wants women to be comfortable in their homes, and to make everything available for them, because they are the real makers of Mujahideen. There are many cases in Islamic books, where women participated in battles as fighters and not only as medical staff, or other kinds of supporting jobs. An example is Um Omarah, who in the battle of Uhod fought side by side with Muslims, and had a role in defending the Prophet (P.B.U.H). At all times Muslims must make all necessary means to protect women who join the army against falling prey to men who might harm their dignity and honor.

Islam gives great reward for men who take part in Jihad, which made some women feel jealous. A group of women sent one of them to the Prophet (P.B.U.H) as a representative to inquire about that. She asked him about what women can do to achieve getting the same reward. He told her that performing Hajj or Omrah, and treating husbands kindly is equal in reward to that of fighting in battlefields. In other words, women can be in a continuous state of jihad, while most men have a one in a lifetime opportunity to participate in Jihad.

5.       Women Taking Charge of Public Offices:

Islam allocated responsibilities to both sexes on the bases, which conform to Islamic laws, and to their physical and mental abilities. Therefore, women are not allowed to take charge of public offices where they have to deal with men. Omar Ibn Al-Khattab assigned a woman called Ashshifa’ Bint Abdullah Aladawiyyah to be in charge of the department of the market. The reason for that is probably because of her ability to read and write, which was rare at that time, in addition to her enjoying good manners and reputation as is mentioned in her autobiography.

Women are allowed to manage any office, establishment, or parts of them, which are for women only such as schools, colleges and hospitals.

******

Now as for the other sources of the other hadiths, look up Sahih Bukhari Hadiths.  The Book number and hadith number is given.

Ma-asalaama.....
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
Trustworthy
07/20/03 at 00:01:02
[slm]

Awe Dang it!  I meant to type: www.the-bright-truth.com

And the ayats from the Qur'an was supposed to be in Arabic.  I don't know what happened.  Maybe this board doesn't support those fonts.

If you prefer, I will get those ayats for you as well.

Anyways, hope you enjoyed reading. :)  That wasn't sarcasm either.  It was sincere.

Ma-asalaama...
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
WhiteSomali
07/20/03 at 00:22:13
[slm]  ;D

Okay well, this probably comin as a result of not reading the whole thread in its entirety, I noticed sis Trustworthy's last post was an article entitlted ISLAM PROTECTS WOMEN.

For a book on why Islam is better for women than Christianity and Judaism, I recommend Women in Islam vs Judaeo-Christian Tradition: The Myth & The Reality, by Sherif Mohammed which you can read for free online right here: http://www.wponline.org/vil/Books/SM_wis/index.htm (don't worry it's not more than an hour n a half long, I think, can't remember)

Although I'm not sure what any of this has to do with more women being in Hell.

BUT what do I know I'm just a confused porkchop  :D

[slm]
Re: Consequences of Many Women Going to Hell!
lucid9
07/20/03 at 10:16:07
[quote author=Trustworthy link=board=madrasa;num=1058359996;start=15#20 date=07/19/03 at 23:30:31]

I hope that was sarcasm b/c when I said that I had to work was not meant as an insult.  I posted what my job was and that day was pretty busy.  But I remembered the hadith and thought that it would help.  If you felt insulted by it, I apologize.
[/quote]

Gee, it wasn't sarcasm, I was just trying to tell you that you don't have to expend so much effort to reply to me.  I have this picture of a working mother with a nine year expending her precious time replying to some bloke with mental diarrahea.  Most of the stuff I say is pretty useless, and you shouldn't  worry about replying.  The last thing I would want is drawing people away with my many (unimportant) questions  from their more important duties.  I mean life is nonlinear, and people like me have to worry a bit about doing somthing small but perhaps silly, which will blow up and causes harm to other people, etc (via wasted time etc.).  That's all I meant.  

I read the first half or so of the article in the link you provided.

Uggggh..  I don't know, all I can say is how can I give such an article to my nieces or female cousins?  They would handbag me for it!  It doesn't seem to be fair, and i don't think it represents true islamic scholarship.  I mean for example, the thing about "females weak brain" has just got to go.  Anybody with any kind of skepticism would have a field day with that.  

I think this is indicitive of the fact that real muslim learning has disappeared from this ummah, and the scholars these days are almost all men.  Some of you sisters, really should train yourselves and your daughters to become really proper scholars (who have a grasp of the past 1400 years of scholarship and not just the most common books taught in say typical islamic insitutions, etc.).  The muslim ummah needs genuine female voices, not for example the voices of the women on that website, who are just parroting the scholarship of a bunch of males who are often misogynist at heart.  Don't get me wrong.  I am not slamming muslim scholars.  I am just saying that its quite important to have another perspective, and that scholars are typically not upholding the historically very high bar of scholarship and intellectual honesty set down by our forefathers.    


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