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| Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| jannah |
| 07/19/03 at 07:57:47 |
| Woman takes on political giants in presidential race By ADAN MOHAMED If Asha Ahmed Abdalla has her way, Africa could soon have its first woman president. When she first announced her intention to run for the presidency of Somalia last week, many reacted with shock and surprise. Abdulla, 45, made her ambitions known during the final phase of the on-going Somali peace and reconciliation conference, which has been going on in Eldoret and Nairobi for the past eight months. She wants to run for the office alongside 30 other aspirants ? all of them men. After the initial shock elicited by the announcement, reactions to her candidature were numerous and varied. Many welcomed it as a refreshing conclusion to the often tumultuous talks, arguing that her candidature would enhance the democratic process of the talks, especially in the eyes of IGAD (Inter-Governmental Agency for Development) and the international community. But there were those who reacted to Abdalla's announcement with scepticism and indifference. Hers was a mere declaration of intent, they declared dismissively, because she stood no chance of winning in a field full of established Somali political heavyweights. The forthcoming polls, they said, would follow the traditional pattern in Africa, where only men are expected to contest the presidency. The presidential race is, indeed, a monumental undertaking for Abdulla. Not only is she taking on a full field of political heavyweights, but she is also the only woman candidate. And this in a country where women have traditionally been marginalised from political and other decision-making positions. While women the world over have always been the underdogs in the cruel, cut-throat fight for political power, perhaps nowhere is this gender disparity more evident than in Somalia. The combination of a deep-rooted, gender-biased culture, combined with intolerance occasioned by decades of despotic, dictatorial rule has kept women away from leadership positions. And many appeared to have given up the struggle to correct the unjustices against them. But Abdalla is not one to give up even when all the odds seem stacked against her. Not only does she come armed with boundless energy and determination, she also has an impressive list of academic and professional qualifications. After graduating from Latole University in Mogadishu with a BA degree, she migrated to the United States with her family in late 1970s. She enrolled at La Guardia College for a Bachelor of Science degree course, and later for a Masters course at the City University of New York. She has also received diplomas in accounting, business management and book-keeping from various colleges in the US. While in the US, Abdalla was involved in famine relief activities to help ease the suffering of the people in her country. For the better part of the 1990s, she chaired the Washington-based Somali Relief Agency which, besides food relief, also dealt with refugee welfare. It was not until the year 2000 that Abdalla plunged into the rough and tumble of politics. The holder of a dual US-Somali citizenship, she attended the Somali peace conference in Arta, Djibouti, in 2000. Due to her significant role in the peace effort, she was elected to the Somali Transitional National Assembly. When Abdiqassim Salat Hassan was elected president of the transitional national government (TWG) by the Arta conference, he appointed Abdalla deputy minister for Labour, Sports and Social Affairs. A few months later, she was elevated to head the crucial ministry of Demobilisation, Disarmament and Reintegration. Abdalla outlines a 12-point agenda for securing the unity of Somalia and mobilising the citizens to rebuild the country. It includes revival of the country's economy; promotion of regional governance to bolster unity in diversity; socio-economic and political empowerment of women; disarmament of all armed groups in Somalia; and strengthening of the judiciary, universal education, child welfare, healthcare and infrastructural development. According to Kenya's envoy to the Somalia peace talks, Mr Bethwel Kiplagat, a new government of Somalia will have been constituted by early July. As the process inches closer to its climax, and the new government becomes more of a reality than a dream, even those Somali leaders who boycotted the meeting are now showing a keen interest in the election.. The latest entry was that of the transitional government's president, Hassan, who jetted into Nairobi on Wednesday last week and immediately announced that he was in the presidential race. Hassan has been absent from the peace talks all along. Many of those in the race are factional leaders believed to be proteges of regional and international interests. Hassan, who is from the Abgal (Hawiye) ethnic group, was a minister during dictator Siad Barre's regime, and has links with Somali communities in Arab and European countries. Others include Hussein Aideed, son of former factional leader Gen Mohammed Farah Aideed (Habar Gedir-Hawiye clan); Col Abdullahi Yusuf (Mujertein-Darod clan), who was in self-exile from 1978 to 1991; Prof Abdurahman Barre Osman (Marehan-Darod clan), Barre's brother and former cabinet minister; former International Football Federation official Farah Adow (Abgal-Hawiye clan); and Dr Najib Abdulkarim, a lecturer in a New York university. |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| lucid9 |
| 07/19/03 at 09:18:12 |
| [slm] In my experience, women are much better than men at running things. Things like a (a) household (b) an ISOC or MSA (c) community organizations. But when it comes to countries, Benezir, Khaleda, the female Sheikh Hasina have been disasters. (I don't know about Megawati and Tansu Cillar). People say this is because they are too suseptible to their husbands and sons! I.e. Benny was ruined by her hubby, Khaleda (an illiterate) will be ruined by the fact that she wants to pass everything on to her corrupt son, and Sheikh and Bake Hasina was ruined by her father (she wanted everybody to kind of worship her deceased father.) Its quite an interesting, and bizzare rationale. (The usual argument aganist women is their perceived lack of mental strength, their inability to turn off the waterworks (over-emotionalness), and their need to be drugged up on Advil for one week out of every four, if you know what I mean). But, did you know that it is actually completely halal for a women to be the leader if she takes over a country/land by force?!! I think this refers to military force and may have something to do with Aisha (ra) and her opposition to Ali. And do you know this actually happened a couple of times in Islamic history? I wonder how many people actually read Fatima Mernissi's book where she pokes holes in the hadith stating that a people will never prosper when governed by a woman. She says the hadith is not reliable as the narrator is not trustworthy since he was punished for false accusation of adultery. (I.e. he was one of a set of people accusing a women of adultery, but couldn't muster up 4 witnesses. So he was punished with a public flogging (i think). ) The thing is, even if Mernissi is talking rubbish, would most muslim scholars, who are men, discredit her in an honest way? Would they just dismiss her because of her outrageous proposition? I'm rambling here, but I guess there a lot of women who I would think would be much better at running something big (like a country) than most guys. If you want to harrass me about the last statement, feel free :) The really sad thing about women leaders is that once they get into power, they seem to embody all the worst qualities of men and women. (Think of Benny and Maggie Thatcher -- each thought she had to act like a man to be respected and forgot how to act like a woman). They campaign on helping women, but when they get into power, they completely forget about them. The same happens with women MPs --- who amazingly seem to be oblivious to the general plight of women once they get into power. BTW, I would like to debunk one thing which I consider a myth. Lots of women say that if women were in charge, there would be fewer wars and violence. I suspect the reverse may be true. Women are often the ones goading on the males to defend their way of life, honour, etc. At a very deep level, they are often the source of excessive patriotism, and hence wars, etc. I don't know -- this is what my (non-muslim) history teacher told me -- and what I tend to agree with nowadays. |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| Caraj |
| 07/19/03 at 12:36:14 |
| I mean no disrespect but men have been running the show for decades and centuries and look where we are at. Bush.........Male Clinton........Male Blair............Male Saddam........Male Male......Male......Male.......Male And contrary to what you say although I love and respect my husband and love my sons, If I felt in my mind and heart something they were doing was not right and I was a leader I WOULD NOT let their influence cause me to do something different. In the end I am accountable to the Almighty not my husband or my sons. I fear God much more than my huaband and my sons. I know in Islam as in Christianity a woman is to obey her husband and submit to him. However I don't think that is the case if you're asked to do something wrong. Women know how to admit when they are wrong, women know how to talk things out and although it may be heated at first in the end after talked out things seem to make sense. We can go into a meeting mad and foaming at the mouth (sort to speak) and come out smiling, laughing and hugging. Learning that what caused our anger was petty and the bigger picture was more important. The anger covered the main subject of concern. We would be more interested in feeding, clothing and having medical for our people than all this trade and weapons stuff. As with our children we would be quick to punish. Not saying women are better than men just saying we see and do things differently. Like a mother bear with her cubs, we would feed and protect our young and try to avoid danger and in most cases walk around it. However like the Wanna be a bear post a while back in the cafe, make us mad and we are either going to eat you or swat you. ;D Just this Momma Bears insight and opinions ;) |
| 07/19/03 at 13:08:35 |
| Caraj |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| lucid9 |
| 07/19/03 at 12:55:05 |
| [slm] But all of those guys are married. How do you know that doesn't have something to do with it? Maybe their wives have something to do with it? The most militant people I have met were women (more or less). And the nuttiest Republicans I have met are women. And the thing about women is that they can (sometimes needlessly) make you feel so guilty. They know how to push all the right buttons. So I don't know if you could really say that the world would be more peaceful if the world was ruled by women. |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| Caraj |
| 07/19/03 at 13:04:58 |
| [quote author=lucid9 link=board=ummah;num=1058612267;start=0#3 date=07/19/03 at 12:55:05][slm] I have met were women (more or less). And the nuttiest Republicans I have met are women. And the thing about women is that they can (sometimes needlessly) make you feel so guilty. They know how to push all the right buttons. So I don't know if you could really say that the world would be more peaceful if the world was ruled by women. [/quote] Excuseeeeeeeeeeeee me Dear Brother, I have a brother, I have male cousins and only had sons Men know how to make a person feel guilty also. They equally also know how to push all the right buttons Believe me........I know ;D ;) |
| 07/19/03 at 13:06:10 |
| Caraj |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| theOriginal |
| 07/19/03 at 13:11:26 |
| [slm] the world would be a nicer place if there was more estrogen floating around. the women who make it to power (benazir) have been brainwashed by a male-dominated society. so technically, we will never know what if feels like to have a woman-run government, because all those woman running have basically accepted the male-ish way to do things. the libyan ambassador is female here....and she wears hijaab....supa supa supa cool. wasalaam. |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| lucid9 |
| 07/19/03 at 13:54:04 |
| Maybe. But, for example when men become corrupt and accept bribes -- don't they usually do it so their families can live better. There are many, many men who do this (particularly in the 3rd world) because of pressure from their wives. And I know people whose children and/or wives harass them for not accepting bribes and for earning an honest wage. You stated one stereotype -- that women stand for calmness, and kindness and the world would be better off with them running things. So i'll give another stereotype back -- that women are largely responsible for men using illicit means to live outside their wages so that their wives and family can have a "better" life. Its interesting how both niether men or women are angels, and that each gender has its own unique faults. |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| Caraj |
| 07/19/03 at 14:25:07 |
| [quote author=lucid9 link=board=ummah;num=1058612267;start=0#6 date=07/19/03 at 13:54:04]Maybe. But, for example when men become corrupt and accept bribes -- don't they usually do it so their families can live better. There are many, many men who do this (particularly in the 3rd world) because of pressure from their wives. And I know people whose children and/or wives harass them for not accepting bribes and for earning an honest wage. [/quote] That is disgusting but sadly I know you speak the true. I guess I never looked at it this way. But also think of this :-[ If a man lets anyone influence him to do wrong in my opinion he is weak. He will have to account for that. Wonder if wifey is willing to share his punishment ;) [quote author=lucid9 link=board=ummah;num=1058612267;start=0#6 date=07/19/03 at 13:54:04] You stated one stereotype -- that women stand for calmness, and kindness and the world would be better off with them running things. So i'll give another stereotype back -- that women are largely responsible for men using illicit means to live outside their wages so that their wives and family can have a "better" life. [/quote] We have to be careful not to blame another for our own actions. We may be influenced or others try to influence us but in the end we make the choice. I guess I have a hard time with this as when I married I make my own money. If I want more I don't 'NEED' my husband to get more I am capible of making more. [quote author=lucid9 link=board=ummah;num=1058612267;start=0#6 date=07/19/03 at 13:54:04] Its interesting how both niether men or women are angels, and that each gender has its own unique faults. [/quote] Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh now that's the truth But we always have to keep in mind, maybe one will influence us but in the end we are the ones responsable for our own actions. To my Medina family, when this happens to you always remember you are responsable for your own actions not others (family) reactions. Also remember if you make a wrong choice 9 out of 10 times I bet the one influencing you won't be begging for half your consequence either :( |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| bhaloo |
| 07/19/03 at 20:42:24 |
| [slm] From Islam-qa.com Question: Are women allowed to be rulers in the islamic shariah? (i would prefer evidence from the Qur'an). Answer: Praise be to Allaah. Firstly: We appreciate our brother’s keenness to find out and follow the evidence from the Qur’aan, but there will not necessarily be evidence specifically from the Qur’aan for every issue. Rather the evidence for many rulings is to be found in the saheeh Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), not the Qur’aan. The Muslim has to follow the evidence of both the Qur’aan and Sunnah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination” [al-Nisa’ 4:59] Allaah has commanded us to obey Him and to obey His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and He has commanded us to refer matters of dispute to His Book and the Sunnah of His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad) gives you, take it; and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it). And fear Allaah; verily, Allaah is Severe in punishment” [al-Hashr 59:7] Ibn Maajah (12) narrated from al-Miqdaam ibn Ma’di Yakrib that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Soon there will come a time when a man will be reclining on his pillow, and when one of my hadeeth is narrated to him, he will say, ‘The Book of Allaah is (sufficient) between us and you. Whatever it states is permissible we will take as permissible, and whatever it states is forbidden, we will take as forbidden.’ Verily, whatever the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has forbidden is like that which Allaah has forbidden.” Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 8186 Secondly: The evidence from the Qur’aan and Sunnah indicates that it is not permissible for a woman to assume positions of senior public authority, such as the caliph (khaleefah), minister of state (wazeer or vizier) or judge (qaadi) and so on. 1 – Evidence from the Qur’aan: Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means” [al-Nisa 4:34] Al-Qurtubi said: The words “Men are the protectors and maintainers of women” mean that they spend on them and protect them, and also that they (men) are the rulers and governors, and the ones who go on military campaigns, and none of these are the role of women. Tafseer al-Qurtubi, 5/168. Ibn Katheer said: It means the man is in charge of the woman; he is her leader, the ruler over her who disciplines her if she goes astray. “because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other” means, because men are superior to woman, and a man is better than a woman. Hence Prophethood was given only to men, as is the role of caliph, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No people will ever prosper who appoint a woman in charge of them.” Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 1/492. 2 –Evidence from the Sunnah: It was narrated that Abu Bakrah said: When the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) heard that the people of Persia had appointed the daughter of Chosroes as their queen, he said, “No people will ever prosper who appoint a woman in charge of them.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4163. Al-Shawkaani said in Nayl al-Awtaar, 8/305: This indicates that women are not qualified to rule, and it is not permissible for people to appoint them as rulers, because they must avoid that which will cause them not to prosper. Al-Maawirdi said, in the context of his discussion of the position of wazeer: It is not permissible for a woman to play this role, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “No people will prosper if they delegate their affairs to a woman.” And because these positions require wisdom and resolve, which women may be lacking in, and requires appearing in public to handle matters directly, which is haraam for them to do. Al-Ahkaam al-Sultaaniyyah, p. 46. Ibn Hazm (may Allaah have mercy on him) said, in the context of his discussion on the role of caliph: There is no dispute that it is not permissible for a woman (to be caliph). Al-Fasl fi’l-Milal wa’l-Nihal, 4/129. In al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah (21/270) it says: The fuqaha’ are agreed that one of the conditions of the position of caliph is that the holder should be male. The leadership of a woman is not valid, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No people will ever prosper who appoint a woman in charge of them.” That is also so that he will be able to mix with men, to devote his time solely to dealing with affairs of state, and because this position involves handling very serious matters. The responsibility is great and this is a man’s role. Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked the following question: What is the Islamic view on a woman being nominated as a candidate for the position of head of state, or head of a government, or a public ministry? He replied: It is not permissible to appoint or elect a woman as head of state. This is indicated by the Qur’aan, Sunnah and scholarly consensus. In the Qur’aan, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other…” [al-Nisa 4:34] The ruling in the verse is general and includes a man’s position of leadership in his family, and applies more so to his position of public leadership. This ruling is supported by the reason given in the verse itself, which is men’s intellectual superiority and better understanding etc, which are basic qualifications for leadership. In the Sunnah, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No people will ever prosper who appoint a woman in charge of them.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari. Undoubtedly this hadeeth indicates that it is haraam for a woman to take a position of public leadership, or to become the governor of a province or city, because all of that comes under the general meaning of the hadeeth, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said that those who appoint a woman as their leader will never prosper. Prospering means being successful and doing well. The ummah unanimously agreed in practical terms at the time of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs and the imams of the first three generations, which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) testified were the best of generations, that women should not be appointed as governors or judges. There were women who were brilliant in religious knowledge, to whom scholars would refer concerning knowledge of Qur’aan, hadeeth and religious rulings, but no woman aspired to positions of public leadership during that time or any other position of that nature. The shar’i responsibilities of such positions cannot be carried out by women, because that involves travelling to the provinces, and mixing with the members of the ummah, and meeting with them, and leading the army sometimes in jihad, and negotiating with the enemy, and accepting oaths of allegiance from members of the ummah, and meeting with them, men and women, at times of war and peace, and so on. This is not appropriate for a woman, and it goes against the rulings of sharee’ah that are established to protect her and keep her safe from having to go out and mix in such a manner. Rationally speaking, women should not be given positions of public office, because what is required of the one who is chosen for such a position is that he should a man of great resolve, determination, smartness, will power and good management skills. These characteristics are lacking in women because they have been created with weakness in their intellect and thinking, and with strong emotions, so electing them to such positions is not in the interests of the Muslims and does not help them to achieve greatness. And Allaah is the source of strength. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon his family and companions. Majallat al-Mujtama’, issue no. 890. And Allaah knows best. |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| theOriginal |
| 07/19/03 at 21:26:44 |
| [slm] The point is not whether or not women are allowed to run...at least not in my opinion, since that's a structural issue of acceptance. But IFF women were allowed to run, I really wonder how the world would be. I just wonder. Could any woman EVER see another woman's child being slaughtered? Men seem to have that ability of accepting things...women generally don't. And that maternal instinct (I'm not a mother which is why this is so weird) is extremely strong in every woman. It HAS to be. As for the flaws of both genders, I concede...but it's nothing education can't solve. Ignorance is by FAR the greatest problem in the characters of those who lead us. Once again, my opinions are unfounded. Ignore me. Wasalaam. |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| jannah |
| 07/19/03 at 22:10:25 |
| [wlm] With all respect to islamqa.com there are other opinions on the matter that discuss how a woman can hold any position all the way up except for calipha itself because a calipha is the spiritual head and has to lead the prayers and jihad,etc. |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| WhiteSomali |
| 07/19/03 at 23:05:57 |
| [slm] ;D Sorry I ain read the thread yet, it's long, I'll post again once I'd read everything. But I waan get this off my chest first. I'ma be happy if ANYONE becomes president of Somalia, and all the dutty fluxy fightin stops. I HATE that, who doesn't, oh my goodness it sucks. No one can even go home to Somalia cuz they gon make dem pay so much money n stuff n AGH I hate it. As long as someone becomes President and unifies the country again I will be so SO happy. To end this post on a cheerful note, ;D ;D ;D Added: Also that article makes it sound like Somali women are all oppressed and stuff. Yeahhh right, every lass Somali sista I know luvs her country. [slm] |
| 07/19/03 at 23:11:05 |
| WhiteSomali |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| lucid9 |
| 07/20/03 at 06:12:19 |
| [slm] Perhaps the question is really more pragmatic in nature. The facts are that in most muslim countries: (1) The viable political parties are thoroughly non-islamic (2) The system is rigged so that islamic parties cannot come to power, so it is pointless to say that the leader should be the spiritual head and lead the prayers etc. So in this case is it okay for women to get involved in politics and run for the top office? I mean, since the system is already so secular, the religious issues are kindof of superfluous (because any guy who is elected is going to be unislamic anyway -- like Parvez "Johnny Walker" Musharraf, Hussein "missed hole" Ershad, Hosni "raging fury" Mubarak, Moammar "escaped mental patient" Gaddafi, or King "use $500 bill for toilet paper" Fahd) . WhiteSomali summed it up pretty well: [quote author=WhiteSomali link=board=ummah;num=1058612267;start=0#11 date=07/19/03 at 23:05:57] I'ma be happy if ANYONE becomes president of Somalia, and all the dutty fluxy fightin stops. [/quote] Basically: anybody whether they be purple. blue, male, female, enuch or transsexual (joke) would be welcome if they could be trusted to get things to run properly and could insure that justice existed. |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| Nabila |
| 07/20/03 at 17:04:10 |
| [slm] I was presumptuous enough to take issue with that fatwa :):- “Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means” Al-Qurtubi said: The words “Men are the protectors and maintainers of women” mean that they spend on them and protect them, and also that they (men) are the rulers and governors, and the ones who go on military campaigns, and none of these are the role of women. The role of women as fighters and taking an active role in military warfare, apart from medical roles is well noted in Islamic history, especially as back up soldiers: see -http://www.jannah.org/sisters/mwarrior.html Ibn Katheer said: It means the man is in charge of the woman; he is her leader, the ruler over her who disciplines her if she goes astray. “because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other” means, because men are superior to woman, and a man is better than a woman. Hence Prophethood was given only to men, as is the role of caliph, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No people will ever prosper who appoint a woman in charge of them.” What a patronising view to take! As if a woman is a child that needs constant looking after. A man certainly is the head of the family, - he is the protector and maintainer - but this makes it seem that she is his subject, with no voice of her own, helpless to do anything useful with her life unless her husband gives her permission. The verse, that was cited 'men are the protectors and maintainers' refers to the family situation. Note the construct of the sentance - 'men are the proctectors and maintainers of [i]women[/i] - meaning that it is a mans duty to protect his sisters from harm, and to maintain her by feeding her and clothing her. This verse must be referring to the household, as we know that the Khalifah's job is not to protect women only - the head of state is responsible for men, women, children, animals, land, and so on. A woman can be a leader and still be 'protected and maintained' by a man, I think. Also, Ibn Katheer's view seems to disregard an important hadith, where the Prophet said men and women are the twin halves of each other. If that is so, how can a man be better than a woman by virtue of his gender? As for the hadith, Some scholars seem to think it is referring to the Prophet's private opinion on women, while other say, that though the chain is authentic, this hadith was widely circulated after the 'Battle of the Camel' where Ali (r.a.a.) was fighting Aaisha's (r.a.a.) army. But let's take a different approach. Note that the hadith above refers to a *Persian* queen - and at the time Persia was engaged in battle, or at the very least was the enemy of the Muslims, and in this context, this may be a remark made by the Prophet to boost the morale of his troops against the powerful Persian Army (see ''Women in Islam: The Western Experience'' by Sophie Ann Roald). but no woman aspired to positions of public leadership during that time or any other position of that nature. Not true - Umar (raa) himself appointed a woman minister of trade or something like that. Didnt Aaisha (raa) lead an army? (not sure abt the latter...) The fuqaha’ are agreed that one of the conditions of the position of caliph is that the holder should be male. The leadership of a woman is not valid, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No people will ever prosper who appoint a woman in charge of them.” That is also so that he will be able to mix with men, to devote his time solely to dealing with affairs of state, and because this position involves handling very serious matters. The responsibility is great and this is a man’s role. There is a fundamental contradiction within Islamic thought here. Firstly, scholars emphasise that ''Motherhood is the most responsible and important job in the world'', while on the other hand, it is claimed that ''the role of Khalifa is beyond a woman's role.'' It is inherently assumed that women cannot deal with matters of seriousness, which seems to me to be baseless. Rationally speaking, women should not be given positions of public office, because what is required of the one who is chosen for such a position is that he should a man of great resolve, determination, smartness, will power and good management skills. These characteristics are lacking in women because they have been created with weakness in their intellect and thinking, and with strong emotions, so electing them to such positions is not in the interests of the Muslims and does not help them to achieve greatness. This entire basis is anything but rational. Such a view is in no way supported scientifically, and it is a sweeping generalisation that women are intellectually weaker than men, especially when earlier in the statement he states that women were/are scholars of the highest calibre! ma asalaamah and take care |
| 07/20/03 at 17:08:37 |
| Nabila |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| Nabila |
| 07/20/03 at 17:16:48 |
| [slm] I have a feeling after that last post, I'll need Momma Mod in my corner :-* ma asalaamah and take care |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| bhaloo |
| 07/21/03 at 03:10:58 |
| [slm] The point of my post was in response to the issue of a woman trying to be the leader of a country, and what the scholars said on this matter. Its purpose was to address the 1st post, as subsequent posts sounded like there was some confusion. Lady Murasaki, please do not try and give your own interpretation to verses/hadiths, leave that to scholars. This is a very dangerous thing. [quote author=lady_murasaki_sa link=board=ummah;num=1058612267;start=0#13 date=07/20/03 at 17:04:10] I was presumptuous enough to take issue with that fatwa :):- “Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means” Al-Qurtubi said: The words “Men are the protectors and maintainers of women” mean that they spend on them and protect them, and also that they (men) are the rulers and governors, and the ones who go on military campaigns, and none of these are the role of women. The role of women as fighters and taking an active role in military warfare, apart from medical roles is well noted in Islamic history, especially as back up soldiers: see -http://www.jannah.org/sisters/mwarrior.html [/quote] Of course women have taken part in military roles, but that is completely irrelevant to what is being said by the SCHOLAR. Jihad is obligatory for men, but jihad in the sense of fighting is not obligatory for women. This is the mercy of Allaah towards them, and consideration for their nature. Ibn Katheer said: [quote] What a patronising view to take! As if a woman is a child that needs constant looking after. A man certainly is the head of the family, - he is the protector and maintainer - but this makes it seem that she is his subject, with no voice of her own, helpless to do anything useful with her life unless her husband gives her permission. The verse, that was cited 'men are the protectors and maintainers' refers to the family situation. Note the construct of the sentance - 'men are the proctectors and maintainers of [i]women[/i] - meaning that it is a mans duty to protect his sisters from harm, and to maintain her by feeding her and clothing her. This verse must be referring to the household, as we know that the Khalifah's job is not to protect women only - the head of state is responsible for men, women, children, animals, land, and so on. A woman can be a leader and still be 'protected and maintained' by a man, I think. [/quote] You think? Sister, I really don't care what people on this board think on this matter, I'm only interested in what the SCHOLARS OF ISLAM have said on this matter. Don't try and give your own interpretation to this verse from the Quran. Refer it to a book of tafsir or some scholar. [quote] Also, Ibn Katheer's view seems to disregard an important hadith, where the Prophet said men and women are the twin halves of each other. If that is so, how can a man be better than a woman by virtue of his gender? [/quote] Subhan'Allah!!! Now your claiming a scholar of the magnitude of Ibn Katheer disregards a hadith? Did the thought occur to you that perhaps you misunderstood what is being said? [quote] As for the hadith, Some scholars seem to think it is referring to the Prophet's private opinion on women, while other say, that though the chain is authentic, this hadith was widely circulated after the 'Battle of the Camel' where Ali (r.a.a.) was fighting Aaisha's (r.a.a.) army. [/quote] *private opiinion* ? The hadith is in Bukhari. The second part doesn't make sense. Are you trying to say that the hadith refers to Aisha (r.a.)? Because this battle of the camel happened about 25 years after the Prophet's death, and obviously after the Prophet (SAW) said this hadith. [quote] There is a fundamental contradiction within Islamic thought here. Firstly, scholars emphasise that ''Motherhood is the most responsible and important job in the world'', while on the other hand, it is claimed that ''the role of Khalifa is beyond a woman's role.'' It is inherently assumed that women cannot deal with matters of seriousness, which seems to me to be baseless. [/quote] I don't see any contradiction, and no where is it saying that women can't deal with serious matters. Men and Women both have responsibilities and in many cases these responsibilities are different. Anyways its late, alls I'm saying is refer to scholars, please do not give your opinion on Islamic matters. |
| 07/21/03 at 03:12:06 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| jannah |
| 07/21/03 at 04:22:16 |
| [wlm] wow let's please not have a cut&paste cyber-fatwa war on this topic. there are differences of opinion, go seek out a scholar, your imam etc etc etc. there's no way we're going to solve an issue that has a difference of opinion on a message board!! please, let's re-read the constitution and figure out what the purpose of the board is and what it isn't (ie NOT a place to exchange and argue on fatwas on different controversial subjects, if u are lookin for a place like that there are tons of msg boards out there.. pls explore) |
| 07/21/03 at 04:32:28 |
| jannah |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| Nabila |
| 07/21/03 at 04:47:09 |
| [slm] Sorry - I think I started it :/ But I have one more question, more of a yes/no one. I just need to know is the hadith that states that no nation will prosper if their affairs were placed in the hands of a woman the only piece of direct evidence relating to the issue of women as khalifah? Because Ive looked and looked and simply cant find anything else. I would appreciate any information :) ma asalaamah and take care |
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| UmmZaid |
| 07/22/03 at 01:06:33 |
| [quote]Could any woman EVER see another woman's child being slaughtered?[/quote] While maternal instinct and inborn compassion is no doubt strong in women, the reality of history shows us that there are quite a few women out there in the world who are quite comfortable with the idea of the "other" woman's children being slain. In Libnan, during the civil war, there was a time when the Chrisitan militias rounded up Palestinian Muslim refugees and took them to a bus station... then the mothers and relatives of dead Christians were allowed to come in the bus station and pick out which random Muslim chlid (or adult) they wanted to see die -- or kill themselves. And of course, you have Madeline Albright with her famous "acceptable" statement about 500,000 dead 'Iraqi children. I guess the important thing is that she didn't actually have to witness a single one of those children dying. I don't have a point, really... I just wanted to point out that women can be stripped of their humanity and compassion in war and politics just as easily as a man can. And I don't think that men who take bribes do it on account of their families, most of the time. They do it b/c they are greedy. Same with women who do that kind of stuff. Greed doesn't know a gender, and I sort of resent the implication that it is the inherent greediness of women that pushes the poor noble men to take bribes. |
| 07/22/03 at 01:11:49 |
| UmmZaid |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| timbuktu |
| 07/22/03 at 02:52:13 |
| [slm] such a long thread, so i will read it in installments. [quote author=lucid9 link=board=ummah;num=1058612267;start=0#1 date=07/19/03 at 09:18:12] [slm] 1. when it comes to countries, Benezir, Khaleda, the female Sheikh Hasina have been disasters. (I don't know about Megawati and Tansu Cillar). People say this is because they are too suseptible to their husbands and sons! I.e. Benny was ruined by her hubby, Khaleda (an illiterate) will be ruined by the fact that she wants to pass everything on to her corrupt son, and Sheikh and Bake Hasina was ruined by her father (she wanted everybody to kind of worship her deceased father.) ..... 2. The really sad thing about women leaders is that once they get into power, they seem to embody all the worst qualities of men and women. (Think of Benny and Maggie Thatcher -- each thought she had to act like a man to be respected and forgot how to act like a woman). They campaign on helping women, but when they get into power, they completely forget about them. The same happens with women MPs --- who amazingly seem to be oblivious to the general plight of women once they get into power. .... 3. BTW, I would like to debunk one thing which I consider a myth. Lots of women say that if women were in charge, there would be fewer wars and violence. I suspect the reverse may be true. Women are often the ones goading on the males to defend their way of life, honour, etc. At a very deep level, they are often the source of excessive patriotism, and hence wars, etc. I don't know -- this is what my (non-muslim) history teacher told me -- and what I tend to agree with nowadays. [/quote] i do agree, that all these daughters lived in the shadow of their fathers, & were out to prove that their fathers were the greatest. & their rule was for the benefit of their husbands & sons, but the last one is also true for the (muslim) men rulers, their rule was for the benefit of their buddies. Looking back at the last century of Muslim rulers, i would say all leaders - not just women, but also men, have been disasters for the Ummah. i agree with the last point: women have not been any less ferocious in going to war. To name : Indira Gandhi, Golda Meir, Margaret Thatcher. I cannot recall any muslim woman to have taken up war with an external enemy as an option, though. The muslim female leader has reserved her ferocity for her local opponent. Women do have some strengths & some weaknesses which would make them unsuited to the highest office. but in the current leaders of the Ummah, i find no one as a suitable leader, except perhaps Mahathir, who is retiring, & I really do not know much about him, or how he has ruled. or perhaps the society is at fault for these disasters? in which case there should be a debate about what wrongs existwhere, & how to correct them. |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| theOriginal |
| 07/22/03 at 04:45:42 |
| [slm] UmmZaid, That's exactly what I meant.... The women who reach a power of position are those who have been subject to this male dominated society. So we will actually never know what it feels like to be under a female rule. It's a real theory...forget what it's called. I guess I din't pay attn in phl class! |
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| Nabila |
| 07/22/03 at 06:08:39 |
| [slm] I also dont think that a woman would do a better job by virtue of her gender. Rulers as a rule dont have a very good track record, especially in the modern day world. If I made the conditions upon which someone could assume rule, the first law would be that they must live in extereme poverty, with only enough money for their kids to go to school or whatever... so many rich rulers grasping their thrones it is an embarrasment to the human race they have not been overthrown! I think Muslims generally should become more politically savvy than we are, but then I guess you have to have a strong willpower and not to lose hold of the spiritual side of your religion. ma asalaamah and take care |
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| sofia |
| 07/22/03 at 10:12:21 |
| As-salaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah, My dad and I were talking about this not too long ago. He had an interesting point, that basically had to do with going with the lesser of two "evils." Actually, those are my words, he was all for a female ruler (read: not khalifah). Hypothetical situation. If the greater good is a just leader, and say there were no just men to take on that role (for whatever reason), do you think a just female (if there was one who was able) could take on the role of a wazeer or qaadi (I'm pretty sure there are many scholars who hold a woman can be a qaadi, but not sure if they're the majority)? Allahu A'lim, this is just a hypothetical and rhetorical question. We may or may not be in such a situation, but just something to think about. Side comment: The understanding of our scholars is not given the perfection/infallibility that was given to our prophets; ie, there is a certain degree of limitation they had/have, not being prophets and not having direct wahy from Allah. I'm not saying all scholars are infallible, so don't follow a scholar. Yes, we should follow our scholars, that's not the issue here. I'm saying only the Prophets were given wahy from Allah, and any ijtihaad that the rest of our scholars can do is either correct or incorrect, but insha'Allah they are all rewarded for their ijtihaad if they used all of the best resources they could to come up with their conclusions (ikhtilaaf/diff of opinion by legit scholars is clear evidence of this. There are no two fatwas for one situation, but that doesn't mean that the "wrong" answer is punishable if the differing scholars used their utmost ability to make ijtihaad). And also keep in mind, there are exceptions to almost every edict in Islaamic law. I'm sure we all know some examples (like pork is haraam, except when that's all you have to eat). Allah knows best. |
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| lucid9 |
| 07/22/03 at 10:37:49 |
| [slm] Can i ask a question? Wherever you see and see "shariah" in place, like afghanistan, northern nigeria and NWFP, you find complaints like "They prohibit the women from working, going to school, etc" "The punish only the women -- like in adultery cases" "The want to ban just about everything (usually people are referring to things like television. music, etc.)" "They are outrageously mean and close-minded" My question is: suppose the people who were running this sharia governed provinces were typical religious women instead of the typical relgious men, would the same excesses which muslims get accused of happen? I have a feeling that many religious muslim men are reactionary and misogynist. Thus i wonder whether you would have that same excesses if females, who are still reactionary but perhaps not misgynist, were in power instead. I guess this boils down to: who would you rather trust nowadays to be nice and fair -- religious men or women? I think I might trust women in many cases. I guess this is beacuse in my opinion men have dropped so far off the religious ideal that they can nowadays unwittingly be sooo very mean. Don't know... Interestingly though, i would prefer men if they were educated and soft-hearted like some well known religious figures like hamza yusof, jamal badawi (to name a few living in america). Just wondering,....and isn't it interesting that Yvonne Ridley became a fan of islam after being captured by the taliban? (Which just goes to show you that many of taliban were perhaps at heart very nice people, but perhaps outrageously out of touch) |
| 07/22/03 at 10:43:40 |
| lucid9 |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| WhiteSomali |
| 07/22/03 at 11:40:09 |
| [slm] Sadly enough, bra Lucid, you're right, some muslim men who are very religious seem to be mysoganists. I think this may be the result of 1. ignorance, which can easily be cured and 2. culture, in some places it really seems customary to degrade women... Boy can that first one lead to disaster, someone who is very pious and at the same time very ignorant. I think we can all name a few hugely significant examples of why that's not a good thing. [slm] |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| Nabila |
| 07/22/03 at 12:12:46 |
| [slm] Do you think that may be that its because many people think that Islamic thought is an ossified, stationary thing, rather than something that can adapt and breathe? (If you get what Im saying :)) I dont mean - lets go all modern, Islam is a 'free religion' and yadda yadda yadda, but in another thread someone posted some great information about the Imams, and it said something like 'a certain imam didnt want his fatawa distributed too widely because they may not be applicable'. Do you think, in some respects at least, scholars need to make sure their fatawa are applicable for the times/places we live in rather than a one size fits all thing? Kinda like the Taliban wanted to literally 'recreate' Ancient Arabia according to what they thought it was. They seemed to have a pathological fear of fitna, and they pretty much banned everything in an effort to quash it. But you know - I think the Taleban werent as bad as they were painted, just misguided more than anything else. ma asalaamah and take care |
| Re: Woman runs for presidency of Somalia |
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| WhiteSomali |
| 07/22/03 at 12:30:02 |
| [slm] [QUOTE]But you know - I think the Taleban werent as bad as they were painted, just misguided more than anything else. [/QUOTE] I've already responded to this :): [QUOTE] someone who is very pious and at the same time very ignorant. I think we can all name a few hugely significant examples of why that's not a good thing. [/QUOTE] When I said ignorant, I expanded the meaning to mean misguided as well. Being misguided is usually caused by ignorance, and ya know tat when the majority of Muslims in a Muslim state are misguided, that ain neva gon lead to nuffin good. [QUOTE] Do you think, in some respects at least, scholars need to make sure their fatawa are applicable for the times/places we live in rather than a one size fits all thing?[/QUOTE] Yes, I agree with that 100%, of course, because many many of the "gray" issues, that don't have an absolutely clear ruling, are at least partially dependant on the culture and society one is living in. [slm] |
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