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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| why don't they just rebel? |
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| Ruqayyah |
| 07/21/03 at 15:03:11 |
| [slm] Today in the OR my surgeon was asking me a lot of questions about Islam, and the one question that I really didn't have a good answer to was, why do the people in the muslim countries who are pious and good muslims and recognize that their leaders are corrupt, why don't they target the leaders for "terrorism" instead of the west? any thoughts? |
| Re: why don't they just rebel? |
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| jannah |
| 07/21/03 at 15:26:37 |
| [wlm] d'oh... i dare u to go to any 'muslim country' and just 'criticize' the gov't and see what happens. there's absolutely no freedom to even say something on the bus or in the street. fear is how they keep the status quo. if anyone rebels... ie a righteous shaikh, political activist, newspaper writer.. they end up in jail or worse... never seen again |
| Re: why don't they just rebel? |
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| sofia |
| 07/21/03 at 15:36:58 |
| As-salaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah, Just to clarify, the lack of freedom of expression is not a symptom of Islaamic law. In fact, Islaam protects freedom of expression (to a certain degree, like any other form of law) and the right to "rebel" against oppressors (in case anyone read into it something else). In fact, I'd argue that there will always be rebels. Muslims (and others) will always rebel against dictators and oppressors. But the unfortunate thing is, as Jannah mentioned, right now, most of them are tortured or detained. These "Muslim governments" are little more than dictators. I doubt this will keep up for much longer, however. May Allah help every soul get out from underneath the yoke of oppression, and help us help the oppressor by stopping him. As an aside: I can't even get all of my letters/calls through to newspapers/politicians, let alone expect those who rebel against real oppressors to be heard. Not that that should deter anyone. But often, the question comes up from non-Muslims. Why aren't the Muslims doing anything? Of course we need to do more, but not all of our (good or not-bad) action is front-page news. |
| 07/21/03 at 15:41:24 |
| sofia |
| Re: why don't they just rebel? |
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| faisalsb |
| 07/22/03 at 01:50:36 |
| [slm] [quote]Today in the OR my surgeon was asking me a lot of questions about Islam, and the one question that I really didn't have a good answer to was, why do the people in the muslim countries who are pious and good muslims and recognize that their leaders are corrupt, why don't they target the leaders for "terrorism" instead of the west? [/quote] Well that's typical western propoganda against muslims and Islam, this is what we usually listen on CNN and BBC. They try to prove that ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS or Islam teaches terrorism. Actually there are two different things which are cleverly combined togather. First one is reasons behind terrorist attacks against westerner and second is why don't muslims struggle against corrupt rulers of their own. The answer of first question is very long in fact needs a multi volume book to compile and analyse all the events which start from Heroshima, Nagasaki, creation of Israel, genocide in Bosnia, occupation of Afghanistan by Russia and America and latest one is occupation of Iraq. The simple answer of the question is era of slavery is gone and if someone trys to bring it back then they must be ready for the reply. (Just to clearify that I am not justifying terrorism here e.g. killing of innocent civilian, women and kids but just explaining no one is born criminal that's environment and circumstances which makes him so) Where ever answer to second question is concerned that why don't people struggle against their own corrupt rulers then we need to tell them that Islam means PEACE we are not supposed to kill and torture other muslims even if they are corrupt. We are supposed to do that in democratic way and there are people who are doing that and we can see the results of that struggle in Pakistan, Turkey and Kuwait is the recent example. [quote]d'oh... i dare u to go to any 'muslim country' and just 'criticize' the gov't and see what happens. there's absolutely no freedom to even say something on the bus or in the street. fear is how they keep the status quo. if anyone rebels... ie a righteous shaikh, political activist, newspaper writer.. they end up in jail or worse... never seen again [/quote] Well I think here we are making big assumption over here, that statement might be true for GCC countries like UAE, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Qatar etc but we can't apply that assumption on all the MUSLIM countries. I remember when I was a teenager it was time of marshal law in Pakistan which is considered one of the worst era of human right abuses in Pakistan. Gen Zia-ul-Haq was the ruler of the country. And I used to listen criticism against him every where in my school, on streets, at restuatrants etc I remember once I had chance to listen to speech of Allama Ihsan Ilahi Zaheer. He was Ahl-e-hadith leader and scholar. He was talking about Gen Zia-ul-Haq's statement about Siachin Glacier which was recently occupied by India that time. When one reporter asked to Gen. Zia that what his goverment is doing regarding occuption of the area he replied, "Even grass don't grow in that area then what will we do to take that area back?". Allama Ihsan Ilahi Zaheer commented on his statement. He said, "Grass don't grow on head of Gen. Zia-ul-Haq also, should we give head of Gen. Zia to India too?" .........:) and that statement was made in public meeting which was reported in newspapers also. Well the point what I am trying to make is we do have problems we need to improve in many things no doubt about that but we don't need to be apologetic at least not in front of non-muslims. What about human rights and freedom of expression in West? I have read many stories of disappearance and unlawfull detention of muslims in US on this very board within last few months. Yesterday's news is the scientist who disclosed the tempering of intelligence by british government regarding WMD in Iraq has been murdered. BBC is saying he was the only and major source of his stories regarding the issue. If all that is happening in BIGGEST demoracies and the countries who claim themselves CHAMPION OF HUMAN RIGHTS and FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION then I think record of muslim countries is much better. Since most of them got librated hardly 50 years ago, in case of middle east it's even less around 30 years. So within that short period of time the progress what they have made I think is much better if you compare to those countries whose history goes back to hundreds of years. But the problem is west have resources and control on world's media so they can portrait any picture of anyone, what ever suits to their interest. |
| 07/22/03 at 01:55:24 |
| faisalsb |
| Re: why don't they just rebel? |
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| Nabila |
| 07/22/03 at 05:00:00 |
| [slm] no one is born criminal that's environment and circumstances which makes him so This is only true in some cases, though no? Otherwise no one could take true responsibity for their actions, and all our legal and justice systems would be tied up for years in trying to understand why that poor deprived person committed the crime instead of actual punishment for the deed. ma asalaamah and take care |
| Re: why don't they just rebel? |
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| faisalsb |
| 07/22/03 at 06:04:14 |
| [slm] [quote]This is only true in some cases, though no? Otherwise no one could take true responsibity for their actions, and all our legal and justice systems would be tied up for years in trying to understand why that poor deprived person committed the crime instead of actual punishment for the deed. [/quote] Well sister I am not saying that we are not responsible for our actions but what I am trying to say is we should look at root causes of the problem instead of simple 2 + 2 = 4 type justice. I think US is the best example to explain criminal behavior. US has the best resources to deal with criminals and their judicial system is also reffered as an example but still US has highest rate of crimes in world why? Because their value system is weak and their family system is on verge of destruction. On the other hand countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE are criticised for many things but has lowest rate of crimes. And I think in that regard Europe and US should learn something from muslim values and culture. |
| 07/22/03 at 06:15:57 |
| faisalsb |
| Re: why don't they just rebel? |
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| superFOB |
| 07/22/03 at 06:58:17 |
| [slm] Didn't you see the looting that followed baghdad's fall? Not all of them were professional criminals. Most were normal people, just like the rest of the us, men in thobs, children in shorts, women in abayas. My head hung is shame and disgrace when I saw all that in the news. We were the laughing stock of the world. No wonder we are in the gutter of ignominy. When we'll return to the true teachings, inshallah, we'll have the rulers who would not humiliate and oppress us. |
| Re: why don't they just rebel? |
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| timbuktu |
| 07/22/03 at 10:47:38 |
| [slm] as brother Faisal Siddique said: [quote author=Faisal Siddique link=board=madrasa;num=1058810591;start=0#3 date=07/22/03 at 01:50:36]Actually there are two different things which are cleverly combined togather. First one is reasons behind terrorist attacks against westerner and second is why don't muslims struggle against corrupt rulers of their own.[/quote] their's is a clever way of condemning us by associating islam with terror. the 2nd thing is that muslims have resisted their corrupt rulers throughout, first by word of mouth, then physically, but the rulers are supported by those who export weapons of mass control. look at Egypt's Nasser: He was not corrupt, but he destroyed the Ikhwan, & he was supported by the now defunct USSR Egypt's Anwarus Sadat: after making a deal at Camp David, the same. supported by the US of A Egypt's Hosni Mubarak: Same as Anwarus Sadat Algeria: after the muslims won an election, the army annuled the results & started a crackdown. supported by: the West, particularly US of A Indonesia's Suharto: same. darling of the US of A Iran's Raza Shah Pehlavi: same Nigeria: same Turkey: pro-West army keeps Islamists under control Pakistan: same. the West nurtures potential leaders, & bribes or threatens them into submission. can anyone guess where the oil money is kept? the US of A has sold the tiny kingdom of Abu Dhabi 90 billion $s worth of military equipment. Can tiny Abu Dhabi use it. no. guess who has control over her bases & equipment? who runs the show? after the colonialists had to depart, they devised the system of neo-colonialism. These Muslim states are not independent. we were conned into thinking we were independent. Central & South America are also groaning. They have had several uprisings, but there are always counter-coups. Remember murder of Chile's Allende. There are numerous others. Same happened to Africa. the game is control of raw materials, markets, & cheap labor & do you know that NATO & the Warsaw Pact were two faces of the same coin. I have a confession to make. I am much, much older than any of you people here, much older than you can imagine. & my memory, although it has grown dull, still goes back a lot of years. it goes back to the times when the British executed my great........great grandfather's son at Delhi, in 1857, for taking part in the "mutiny". it goes back to the times of the "tawaiful muluk" in andalusia. The muazzen called the faithful to salah five times a day from mosques all over andalusia, sicily, & as far north as Lithuania. Do you know lithuania had mosques? & do you know that generations of numerous Islamic peoples were exiled to inhospitable Siberia, & some still languish there. History is a wonderful subject. Teach history to your children, & tell them to learn from it. They will be able to identify the events as ones they are familiar with, & may devise some way out, if similar events take place in their lives. for history moves in cycles. & only Allah (swt) knows how long before we are free. but if we want to break out of this cycle, we have to analyze our shortcomings as well. plz forgive the ramblings of an old man, who has suffered with every injustice that anyone, anywhere, anytime, has faced. may Allah (swt) give you all fulfillment in this life & the Hereafter, & may HE grant you all shelter under HIS arsh on the Day of Judgment, & may HE reward you all with Firdaws-e-a'alaa in the company of the prophet Muhammad (sls) with your near & dear ones aameen |
| 07/23/03 at 01:05:29 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: why don't they just rebel? |
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| sofia |
| 07/22/03 at 11:57:45 |
| As-salaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah, Mashaa'Allah, jazaakAllahu khair for the du'aa and reminder, brother timbuktu. History seems to be a forgotten thing these days. As we've all been taught, when the Muslims had success (starting at least with Prophet Muhammad's lifetime), they could defeat any large force to restore justice and to defeat oppression, feesabeelillah, even with a fraction of the "manpower" and barely any resources. Even after the Prophet died, salAllahu 'alayhi wasallam, this was the case with our righteous predecessors. Why are we such "losers" now? We're greater in number and have the resources. As we also know, we're not deficient in anything more beneficial to us than taqwa. We're pretty much like the foam of the sea nowadays, unfortunately, or quickly getting there (as the hadith goes, towards the end of time, Muslims will be large in number, and low in quality). Resources were never an issue in our history (as much as we may lack it and/or others may usurp it and/or our being too dense to figure out how to use them). Allahu A'lim, may Allah increase us in taqwa, help us enjoin good and forbid evil, and restore 'izza to this ummah. |
| Re: why don't they just rebel? |
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| lucid9 |
| 07/22/03 at 11:59:08 |
| [slm] Answer: Because they don't want to turn into human Van der Graaf generators! (Have their privates hooked up live wires -- i.e. electric shock) Ever wonder what all the debris at the bottom of the Tigris and Euphrates is? They are concrete blocks -- well, concrete blocks attached to the feet of muslim scholars and dissidents. Ever wonder what baby oil is in Bagdad? Vats of oil in which the children of the disobediant have boiled alive. Saddam used to play lots of interesting games, ducking people in vats of boiling oil, cutting off the ears of anybody who was reluctant to join the Iraqi army. etc. The Shah of Iran's torturers were so adept and skillful that they held professional degrees in torture -- degrees given to them by their teachers -- the Mossad, of course. The Egyptians are however the real experts, in electric shock therepy. And I don't mean, the kind used to cure schizophrenia. This was the kind used to turn people into human light bulbs. If you are really interested you should read the very disturbing book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0860372405/qid%3D1058889044/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/002-5113591-7140004 |
| Re: why don't they just rebel? |
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| WhiteSomali |
| 07/22/03 at 12:18:46 |
| [wlm] Bra Lucid... are you sure about all that? |
| Re: why don't they just rebel? |
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| Trustworthy |
| 07/22/03 at 20:44:07 |
| [slm] Excellent post bro timbuktu and Ameen to your dua for all of us. Ma-asalaama.... |
| Re: why don't they just rebel? |
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| timbuktu |
| 07/22/03 at 20:52:33 |
| [slm] brother WhiteSomali all too true, unfortunately. Human Rights were only for the West. Now even having a citizenship of the West isn't enough. Egyptian & Pehlavi Iran's torture methods are well-documented. it was the same everywhere - muslim or non-muslim. to the experts you can add the morrocans & the Algerians, again trained by Mossad it is going to be a very troubled century. [quote author=sofia link=board=madrasa;num=1058810591;start=0#8 date=07/22/03 at 11:57:45]we're not deficient in anything more beneficial to us than taqwa. We're pretty much like the foam of the sea nowadays, unfortunately, or quickly getting there (as the hadith goes, towards the end of time, Muslims will be large in number, and low in quality). Resources were never an issue in our history (as much as we may lack it and/or others may usurp it and/or our being too dense to figure out how to use them). Allahu A'lim, may Allah increase us in taqwa, help us enjoin good and forbid evil, and restore 'izza to this ummah. [/quote] aameen, sister sofia, & you are right: what Allah (swt) & the prophet (sls) say is true, we lack taqwa. but have we lacked taqwa all these centuries? did the taliban lack in taqwa? did the ikhwan of Egypt? or the Sanussis of Libya, or the Ansaar of Sudan? what is wrong? have we forgotten some other ingredient? can someone plz start a thread giving us history and analyses of different regions & muslim nationalities, so that we have some inkling of what we may have missed? & thanks sister Trustworthy, i am not versed in the arabic/ islamic greetings beyond salaam. but i guess my response to your jazae khair dua should be: "wa iyyakum" |
| 07/23/03 at 01:01:02 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: why don't they just rebel? |
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| UmmWafi |
| 07/23/03 at 01:29:02 |
| [slm] Righto I is kenfuzzled. [quote]why do the people in the muslim countries who are pious and good muslims and recognize that their leaders are corrupt, why don't they target the leaders for "terrorism" instead of the west? [/quote] Few questions here : 1) Are we then decided that those who targetted the West for "terrorism" are "pious and good Muslims" ? 2) Must action against corrupt leaders be similar to terrorism ? 3) Is this a tit for tat kinda question ? Hmm. Wassalam |
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