A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| Yousef |
| 07/19/03 at 09:54:12 |
| [quote]Ok, so why women are not allowed to drive cars there? What's the religious explanantion behind it bro. Yousef[/quote] I have to establish some basis for the discussion. Relgious rulings - fatwas - change according to place and time. So a fatwa given in Egypt, doesnt have to be applied in Sudan. Or a fatwa given 100 yrs ago, doesnt have to be applied now. And this is a well known principle in Fiqh. moreover customs are to be taken into consideration when giving out a Fatwa, this is not something to be attacked. By saying that there are rulings that never change, like rulings on alchohol, bank interest, adultery, pork meat, stealing, killing, hijab, beard...etc..etc. Where the texts are very clear. Back to the driving issue, Saudi Arabia was a desert 60 yrs ago. Where they were still on camels and in tents. So for them to let their wives out in cars all by themselves...that will take a few more decads. Is that to be attacked ? I don't see any reason why it should. [quote]But I have read about laws from Saudi Arabia that are backwards and based on tradition. I can't think of them now, but did you know that teh Prince tawafs around the Kaa'ba with his helicopter instead of doing it the Prophet's (SAW)'s way?[/quote] As far as I know...When princes go to make Umra or Hajj they are surrounded by 10-15 armed guards, not that I'm defending them or anything, but just pointing out that it is kind of hard for me to believe the helicopter thing :) |
| 07/24/03 at 16:48:07 |
| jannah |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| Nabila |
| 07/20/03 at 13:50:54 |
| [slm] Back to the driving issue, Saudi Arabia was a desert 60 yrs ago. Where they were still on camels and in tents. So for them to let their wives out in cars all by themselves...that will take a few more decads. Is that to be attacked ? I don't see any reason why it should. Decades??!! To be ready to drive a [i]car[/i]??? Its been 70 [i]years[/i] already! Women think they are ready now. Who are these men to simply create these rules without consultation with any women? Adil Salahi, the Islamic page editor for Arab news claims that this law is national rather than religious in its nature. National is right - Saudi is the only country in the world with such a rule. Quite frankly, this law is silly, really it is. Poor Saudi women that work hard as teachers in low paying jobs are literally extorted by their drivers (Ive heard stories of 400 riyals a trip!!), and they have no other option but to pay. It creates more problems than it solves and to me, that sounds like a bad idea. More traditional laws - Women have to present *written* permission by their husbands at the airport whenever they are travelling abroad by themselves. Since when is it a governments business what goes on between a husband and his wife? Womens ID cards were reintroduced recently. This means they are finally seen as people in their own right once more, rather than extensions of their mahrems identity. However these ID cards are only available if the womans mahrem says its ok for her to get one. Again, why? If the mahrem says no, a saudi business woman is forced to carry out her business through her mahrem for her 'protection'. Its a normal thing for the woman to be scammed by her mahrems because of the power he has. Women are not permitted by law to be lawyers, judges, architechts (?) and engineers. How are any of these laws Islamic? Dont get me wrong, I love Saudi, and I am aware of the smear campaign against it, blowing little incidents out of proportion (Seen on a documentary, Western journalist filming secretly in Saudi, ''As we can see, there are [i] no women[/i] on the street''. Me yelling at the TV: ''Retard, its noon! Its 50 degrees in the shade - there are no [i]men[/i] in the street either!'') but enough is enough, honestly! :D ma asalaamah and take care |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| lucid9 |
| 07/20/03 at 14:00:12 |
| [slm] The saudis wanted to take away my dad's passport away throw him into prison. Why? Because, he annoyed someone of stature who had not paid him and who was tangentially responsible for the death of one of my family members. When things like this can happen in a muslim country, there is something very, very wrong. The people supporting the regime are the religious scholars. If the regime is messed up, it must also say something about the religious *establishment* supporting it and making up wierdo laws like those quoted in this thread. The royal family served its purpose. It channeled a nontrivial amount of he country's wealth into the public service projects. Hence today Saudia Arabia is a fairly developed country and not like the Nigeria, a very poor basketcase which should be very a very rich country. However, it is about time they and their religoius scholars took a permenant vacation to one of their zillion dollar vacation homes in Switzerland or London or wherever. Else, peasant muslims like me will curse them to Allah for ruining the muslim world. (They are the ones who built up Saddam so that he could kill the Shia Iranians. They are the ones responsible for leaving Saddam in power after Gult War I, and they are really the ones responsible for Gulf War II. And they are the ones preventing Sudan from becoming the breadbasket of Africa. And hence they are the ones responsible for starvation in Africa. And they are the ones partially responsible for keeping afloat the economies of countries at war with muslims. They have invested $1 trillion abroad by buying other countries treasury notes and financing their national debt. ) |
| 07/20/03 at 14:14:38 |
| lucid9 |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| Nomi |
| 07/20/03 at 16:58:39 |
| [slm] I (as a Muslim) take full responsibility of whatever my brother talked about in the thread right above... I'm the one who is responsible, WE are responsible. What did we do to change whats being talked about up there ? If ppl in Saudi Arabia are all that bad then why dont we ask uncle sam to bomb them too >:( ... sorry for getting carried away but i would still like to leave those comments there [slm] Asim Zafar. |
| 07/20/03 at 17:03:08 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| Nabila |
| 07/20/03 at 17:48:14 |
| [slm] Bro, who do you think keeps the Saudi regime in place? Its the Democratic, liberal, free speech loving individuals that make up the US govt. US Army bases all over the place. No body said SAUDIS were bad people, but lets face it the government isnt exactly ideal. :/ ma asalaamah and take care |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| Nomi |
| 07/20/03 at 17:58:42 |
| [slm] [quote author=lady_murasaki_sa link=board=sis;num=1058359361;start=15#23 date=07/20/03 at 17:48:14] No body said SAUDIS were bad people, but lets face it the government isnt exactly ideal. :/ [/quote] a'maalukum, umaalukum = Like people like rulers. Its an authentic hadith, i can also ask for the reference from some scholar around me to put it here if required. |
| 07/20/03 at 18:01:08 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| a_Silver_Rose |
| 07/20/03 at 18:03:06 |
| [slm] Yah I couldnt fully defend that governement if I wanted too. Islam does not tell us to get into other peoples business and what happens in the home is personal. Â From the sunnah of our prophet I thought it was clear that each home has a right to their privacy. This obviously does not happen there. the issue of driving really bugs me because i know driving is alotttt more safer than walking. Â Another thing is that even the female sahaba rode camels! so how can they not allow women to drive! Seems to me like it is actually unislamic to not allow this because first from the sunnah we see woman rode camels and second because it is a big issue of safety. and Allah (swt) knows best I guess we just need to educate others just about these little things that happened during the time of the sahaba. May Allah (swt) guide us all. your sis |
| 07/20/03 at 18:04:19 |
| a_Silver_Rose |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| Nabila |
| 07/21/03 at 04:02:49 |
| [slm] [quote author=Nomi link=board=sis;num=1058359361;start=15#24 date=07/20/03 at 17:58:42][slm] a'maalukum, umaalukum = Like people like rulers. Its an authentic hadith, i can also ask for the reference from some scholar around me to put it here if required. [/quote] I AM NOT LIKE TONY BLAIR!!! ma asalaamah and take care |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| WhiteSomali |
| 07/21/03 at 04:11:01 |
| [slm] ;D I agree with Sis lady_murasaki_sa... Can you give the source of that Hadeeth? And are you sure it's classed as authentic? And if it is authentic, I really think it needs some explanation because it's not as self explanitory as it seems. JazakAllah. [slm] |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| Nabila |
| 07/21/03 at 05:06:41 |
| [slm] I just thought of something far worse - dont most of you guys end up as George Bush??! :D ma asalaamah and take care |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| Nomi |
| 07/22/03 at 06:25:32 |
| [slm] [quote author=lady_murasaki_sa link=board=sis;num=1058359361;start=15#26 date=07/21/03 at 04:02:49] I AM NOT LIKE TONY BLAIR!!! [/quote] Respected sis, i'm not like Gen. Musharraf either. Its just that the Hadith that i quoted talks about the "majority of people" ! This is what i got from the net, i'll try to talk to a scholar about the said as well, till then... [i]Al-Tabarani narrated that al-Hasan [al-Basri] heard a man supplicating against al-Hajjaj whereupon he said to him: "Do not do that! Truly you are all the same and were treated accordingly. The only thing we fear, if al-Hajjaj were to be put away or die, is that apes and pigs shall be made rulers over you.* It has been narrated: "Your deeds are your workers (a`malukum `ummalukum) and as you are, so will your leaders be." ...[/i] here is the source http://www.sunnah.org/QA/qa1.htm [slm] Asim Zafar (Who neither behaves nor looks like Muharraf as Mr. Musharraf is short, fat and doesn't have a beard :P ) |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| superFOB |
| 07/22/03 at 07:13:06 |
| [slm] Please quit bashing the Saudis. [list][*]They host more than 2.5 million hajis every year and many more who visit the two cities throughout the year. Saudis foot the bill. A feat without parallel.[*]They have published and distributed millions of excellent copies of the quran throughout the world, free of cost. Another feat that has no parallel.[*]They try to enforce shariah according to whatever their ulama concur upon. You don't see half naked pictures on billboards in Saudi. What a relief![*]They provide oil at discount rates to almost all muslim countries. Food and aid goes to almost all the muslims people every year.[*]Arabs from the peninsula are the most generous when it comes to causes of Islam.[/list]I am not a great fan of the Saudis and their interpretation of Islam. Despite all that, please, try to give a balanced view instead of focusing only on the hideous. Keep in mind that most other muslim govts are much more corrupt. |
| 07/22/03 at 07:19:25 |
| superFOB |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| lucid9 |
| 07/22/03 at 08:38:16 |
| [quote author=superFOB link=board=sis;num=1058359361;start=30#30 date=07/22/03 at 07:13:06] Please quit bashing the Saudis. [/quote] Why?? Why the sentimentality? People have every right to criticize oppressive governments. Recall how Salman al-farisi (ra) hassled Umar (ra) about the length of his dish dasha. [quote] They host more than 2.5 million hajis every year and many more who visit the two cities throughout the year. Saudis foot the bill. A feat without parallel. [/quote] Ay?? There is is such a thing as hajj tax. It is several hundred dollars. That's equivalent to several hundred million dollars revenue from Hajjis! And imagine the tourist income. Other countries would dream of having that kind of a tourist attraction because of the amount of money those tourists would spend in their country. Also, hajjis almost universally (in my experience) complain of the extremely rude and demeaning behaviour of the Saudi officials during Hajj. Hajjis are treated very badly. Also, what about all the cheapskate construction? Every year there is a huge disaster, whereby either a tunnel collapses or something of that sort. Every year hunderds and even thousands of hajjis die because of the negligence and utter disregard of the Saudi government. [quote] They have published and distributed millions of excellent copies of the quran throughout the world, free of cost. Another feat that has no parallel. [/quote] Huh? They copied Yusof Ali's translation and called it their own. Talk about lack of respect! And there translation is so bad! With all the parentheses and ideological inserts, who can read it? Lots of people complain about it. And also why do they insist on putting accross a point of view in their translation? Just look at the translation of Fatihah. I mean why do they have to translate "maghdubi" and "ad-dallleen" as the jews and chrisitians? Yikes! The quran doesn't mention them here -- but the translators in their alarming wisdom have inserted it here -- in an english translation meant for muslims and nonmuslims! Wierd? [quote] They try to enforce shariah according to whatever their ulama concur upon. You don't see half naked pictures on billboards in Saudi. What a relief! [/quote] They impose shariah only on the little people and not on the important people and the real theives of society. And what kind of shariah is it where a person cannot own own land or a business if he is not saudi? And why kind of shariah segregates people on whether they are from the west or muslim countries? And what kind of shariah makes you pay an american 10 times more than an equivalently qualified muslim from say Egypt? And what kind of sharia, makes you lock up religious scholars and dissidents? No valid sharia does that! [quote] They provide oil at discount rates to almost all muslim countries. Food and aid goes to almost all the muslims people every year. [/quote] Ay! Yikes! At what kind of discount? If that were true then there wouldn't be chronic energy shortages in countries like Pak and Bangladesh! And what kind of aid are you talking about? It is just a trickle, if that. [quote] Arabs from the peninsula are the most generous when it comes to causes of Islam. [/quote] Ay!? They are the most ungenerous! They only give money for Palestine. They couldn't be bothered with the massacre in Gujarat, or the plight of the starving in Africa. Also, on a percentage basis, you will find the most generous people are from the poorest countries. The percentage of earnings poor countries give away is much higher than richer countries. Its like saying the US is the most generous country. They give away less than 0.003 of their GDP. Whereas countries like Norway who are much more generous give away several percentage points of their GDP. In fact the US is the most ungenerous country of the developed countries. [quote] Keep in mind that most other muslim govts are much more corrupt. [/quote] Also, keep in mind that Saudia Arabia (what a hilarious name for a country) is the land of the sahabah. It is the land of the prophet, and the two holy cities. It is also the land of a people who historically have been very dedicated to islam. The only reason why the country is not as messed up as other arab countries is because of the disciplined upbringing of earlier generations. Its like saying don't fault me ( even though my father is a hafiz my mother taught me the quran before I could walk) if i lie and steal while the guy next door (whose dad is a drunkard and mom a drug addict) is committing zina. Because of its history, Saudia Arabia has a lot to live up to, and we are quite right to criticize it if it doesn't. (I mean, look how Allah has gifted them the gold of our times. How much more can a people be blessed? How much more obvious can it that it is their responsiblity to use that wealth wisely and judiciously? Instead they use that wealth to prop up anti-muslim governments, kill other muslims (iranians) and do all manner of other mischief. And, just to cheesy, as Spiderman said: "with great power comes great responsibility.") |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| WhiteSomali |
| 07/22/03 at 09:07:09 |
| [slm] Power really does corrupt almost everyone who has enough of it :( Including Muslims. Power corrupts the powerful, and then the powerful corruptly exercise that power on the 'insignificant'. Well, that's not true for everyone, but really, a large majorty :( Why ya bashin Saudi's name for though? Come on now that has nothing to do with anything, don't hate. :o Besides Saudi Arabia is a sick name ;D [slm] |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| Nabila |
| 07/22/03 at 11:56:47 |
| [slm] I agree with the part about generosity. The archetype of the ''rich, arrogant Saudi'' isnt really true. In Saudi, something like 1% of the population owns about 75% of the wealth, and most Saudis are middle class, or poor. And they really are truly generous; Ive known people to discreetly hand large amounts of money to beggars regardless of their nationality or whatever. The Arab world shares an entire language and culture. Of course some may feel more for the plight of the Palestinians by virtue of this, but I know they support the sheeshaan mujahideen also by donating funds etc. Its like Indo Pak Muslims feeling something extra for their gujuraati brothers and sisters. The government does do alot of charity work - a lot, and most of it on the sly. People needing medical care are taken to the best hospitals and during umrah they give away free water and other things other governments wouldnt dream of doing. But Im afraid that doesnt change the reality of the law, of the opression and the injustice. I tend to feel stronger about this because of Saudis Islamic background, that they have a greater responsibility than the rest of the Islamic countries to make sure that they are the beacon for other countries to follow. Too often, non Muslims see - Saudi = Cradle of Islam. Saudi = Backwards, intolerant, not enough postives about it. Ergo, thats pretty much what Islam is like. ma asalaamah and take care |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| Anonymous |
| 07/22/03 at 19:05:25 |
| Salaams I grew up in Jubail. A beautiful industrial city by the Arabian Sea on the east coast of Saudi Arabia. I loved the life there. The comforts, the food, the free health care, the amusement parks, the tight-knit family gatherings, the smell of Ramadhan in the air, going for Umrah once or twice a year or more :), the awe when all the stores are closed for prayers, the masjids at every corner, the yummy dates, the halal KFC/Hardees, the Al-Marai Laban :) and I could just go on...Everything was perfect when I was little. But as I grew up and left the place for college leaving my parents behind I often reflect back on the Saudi system and what my parents have to deal with every day. MashaAllah it is a blessed country, but often times it can get sadly, very frustrating for foreigners (I mean from Asia) who work so hard and get so little in return....you can really never feel a sense of belonging there because even if you have lived and worked so hard there for decades, you as a Muslim cannot own a house or settle down there. So basically you are left with nothing in the end except Allah's mercy and rewards for the toil and sweat and the blessing/satisfaction of performing so many Umrahs and Hajjs (I am not belittling that by any means). For those of you who spend a lot of their childhood/life anywhere in Saudi Arabia...did you experience the following and what is your opinion on it? (or is it just me who is a little bitter) --How foreign expatriates working even in honorable positions like are doctors or engineers are traated like nothing by the saudi managers. --How a doctor/engineer who has earned a degree in a developing country like India or Pakistan gets half the salary that his counterpart, maybe even younger and not as experienced but trained in the US/Europe gets? --How kids in Indian Embassy schools or Pakistani Embassy schools were told to cover up and dress modestly even when on campus but it hardly mattered if the kids who went to British or American Embassy schools wore tank tops and shorts after taking off their abayas on campus?? --How there was so much double standards in many other ways. Alright I better stop before I offend someone here. I really don't mean to do that, just stating the observations and experiences I have had. And the weird thing is that despite all this, I am proud to say that I lived there and it always brings a smile and happy memories back to me when I think about my Jubail. Salaams sab |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| Trustworthy |
| 07/22/03 at 23:46:43 |
| [slm] You know something? When I went their for Hajj, Masha-Allah, I was so overwhelmed with the sense of Islam whereever I was (which was only Meccah and Medinah) but I have never been happeir in my whole life (probably b/c I was doing Hajj) but even when it was over, I did not want to leave. I mean everything there was halaal for one thing and life stopped at the call of the adhan. The Ka'bah and the Prophet's masjid, life couldn't get any better. I was in a sense of tranquilty. We stayed at the hotel ascending to Masjid An Nabawi so I heard the adhan from Fajr to Eisha and it was the most beatiful sound ever. I loved waking up to that instead of the annoying alarm clock. I practically lived at the masjid. Listening to the sheikhs read the Qur'an. And the food, ya Rub, the food was like...mmm. And the ppl, oh so dressed properly. I know I had to lower my gaze a few times or taring with adoration of the clothes. All of that made everything else not matter, I just made du'a for it. I was at peace. Never has my faith truly showed until I first glanced at the Ka'aba. The Prophets' were here. So I decided to come home and pack my bags, cause I'm moving there. Then everyone was like, are you crazy? Blah, blah, blah, they don't treat foreigners very well. I was like Huh? What? I don't remember being treated badly when I was there. They said, that's b/c you were a Hajji and they knew you were leaving. I was like that's cold. Why say things like that about an Islamic country where everything is halaal and Isalmic, blah, blah, blah. But unfortunately, it's true. Some ppl I know who went to live there during their studies, didn't do so well. And some Suadis that moved out here was like, it's all good on the outside, but inside....that's why we moved out. I don't know though. I still have to try it myself. It's all heresay to me. Insha-Allah, one day. I mean, Allah did say that those 2 cities are the only cities that will be protected by the Dajjal and Yajuj wa Majuj. I know the Royal family is corrupted in some ways. but how bad could it be? Ma-asalaama... |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| humble_muslim |
| 07/23/03 at 00:38:18 |
| AA I am only replying because I strongly feel the truth must be told about these comments : "They host more than 2.5 million hajis every year and many more who visit the two cities throughout the year. Saudis foot the bill. A feat without parallel." They do NOT foot the bill. It is necessary to pay hajj tax and pay for the qurbani. In addition, over the last couple of years, you now have to use an "official" travel agency and "official" hotels for hajj and umrah - usually the Hiltons. Gone are the days when you could just buy a ticket, and find your own cheap accomodation. But it's true that they generally do a good job of making the Hajj go smoothly. Yes, there have been a few fatal accidents, but that's not always their fault. "They try to enforce shariah according to whatever their ulama concur upon. You don't see half naked pictures on billboards in Saudi. What a relief!" The Prophet (SAW) said something like : "The nations before you were destroyed because they applied the law to the weak/poor, and did not apply it to the rich/strong". He (SAW) said this when some people tried to intervene for a rich woman who had stolen some stuff. He (SAW) did not inetrvene but ordered her hand to be cut off. |
| NS |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| Nabila |
| 07/23/03 at 06:12:47 |
| [slm] --How foreign expatriates working even in honorable positions like are doctors or engineers are treated like nothing by the saudi managers. I dont think my dad was harrassed about that -- he speaks arabic fluently and always got an astonished ''el mudeer baakistaani??!'' (the boss is Pakistani??!) But I have heard horror stories, like the world class gynacologist whose wages were with held from her because they treated her badly because she was Bengoli. But now the newspapers are getting involved, I remember several cases where they championed the causes of workers that were ill treated and chasing after their bosses and embarrassing them into complying with the official regulations. --How a doctor/engineer who has earned a degree in a developing country like India or Pakistan gets half the salary that his counterpart, maybe even younger and not as experienced but trained in the US/Europe gets? Yep - i dont know how widespread it is tho. The Prophet (SAW) said something like : "The nations before you were destroyed because they applied the law to the weak/poor, and did not apply it to the rich/strong". True - though they make a big deal of banning alcohol, in rich households its sometimes no big deal to have your own supply. In Saudi, I would have known on where to get my hands on hash, heroin whatever... in london I have no clue! :D But I agree -- Ramadaans are the ABSOLUTE BEST! in Saudi. It was because Ive lived in Saudi Ive had the privilege of doing Umra several times without difficulty while other people put up with so much hardship. Living in Saudi has had, for me, more positives than negatives but thats only becuase Ive been living there for so long Ive gotten used to it - but that still doesnt make their laws right... ma asalaamah and take care |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| Nomi |
| 07/23/03 at 09:18:41 |
| [slm] I was wondering, isn't there a hadith that explicitly asks us not to demean arabs coz the Final Messenger [saw] was arab? Besides, arn't we just beating about the bush here! why not people try to do something e.g. go and do dawah work there? etc.. anyother suggestion to try and improve things? [i]bold is being used for emphasis...... obviously[/i] |
| 07/23/03 at 11:54:36 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| lucid9 |
| 07/23/03 at 09:46:34 |
| [slm] Nobody is attacking the arabs as a people. People are just critcisizing govenments of arab countries. In any case, an arab is anybody who speaks arabic. So you can be goat herder in north west mongolia and look chinese and still be an arab. |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| Nabila |
| 07/23/03 at 11:49:45 |
| [slm] Thats a Hadith? You sure? What about no arab is greater than a non Arab and no non Arab is greater than an Arab, so wouldnt those two be a bit at logger heads? ma asalaamah and take care |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| panjul |
| 07/24/03 at 01:15:21 |
| [slm] something like 1% of the population owns about 75% of the wealth, The people that own 75% of the wealth and *resources* (oil wells) are the royal family. and they make up 1% of th population. and most of their money is stored up in the US economy. They think they are so rich and powerful now... when the US turns to bite their heads, they will freeze their assests in the US and other western countries in the blin of an eye... they won't be feeling so rich and powerful then |
| 07/24/03 at 08:45:12 |
| Kathy |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| timbuktu |
| 07/24/03 at 09:56:41 |
| [slm] there is so much on this thread, part-truths & half-truths There is good & bad in the Saudis, as in all of us. 1st, i said earlier on that knowing the bent of their ulema, the ruling on bras would be "exempted", not "barred", & that is because of the line where old women are exempted in the Quran from hiding their "charms". & since 40 is not old, i do not think that fatwa would have that age limit on it. No one has produced the actual fatwa yet. Then there is the point of oil supply. The Saudis do supply oil at discounted, or on delayed payment basis to poor muslim countries. & they do make loans, & channel money into charities. What we want from them is something our own governments do not care about, hence we criticise the Saudis, but are they really at fault. & the sacrifices that they have made in the cause of Jihad, are simply unbelievable. Everyone is entitled to his/her concepts. The Saudis think that belief in Tawheed (without any contamination of shirk) is the first requirement. We think we are muslims, & we do not need lessons on Tawheed. I tend to agree with the Saudis on that point. The money is concentrated in the hands of the royal family. This is a genuine criticism. But let us try to understand traditional Muslim societies that are based on tribes & clans. The head of the tribe is supposed to look after the needs of everything from the funds available to him. Being an urban person, I used to get upset about the concepts & practices of people coming to cities from villages & tribal areas, until i learnt of their social background, & their concept of what a society should be. So, the funds go to the king, to members of the royal family, to other chiefs, to religious leaders, & this is all traditional. i dont like it, but it is understandable. Does anyone know that after the abolition of the Caliphate by Kemalist Turkey, a delegation of Ulema-e-deoband went to the Saudi king, to request him to become the Caliph, but he refused. Everyone condemns him for that, & i worried about that, too, until i figured out the reason. A Caliph has a much greater burden of the Ummah on him, & he would have to be a very pious & brave man to take up this task. Kings, however, can use the resources at their disposal not exactly in line with the Shari'a. The practicalities of the political scene demanded that the Saudis act as kings, not as Caliphs. Their investments in the West also made me angry, but the reality is that our own governments & people are corrupt. They eat up money to line their own pockets. The Saudis used to invest & donate for the causes of the Ummah. When they found that the standards were compromised, & money pocketed, they became cautious. We have to accept that the standard of accountability is much higher in the west than in our Muslim countries. The Saudis are said to be arrogant, but i would call them unsophisticated. For they do appreciate people with learning. Their investments in the West have made it possible for mosques & cultural centres to be built throughout the West, which would otherwise have been hostile. & i accept that in due course, the money would be "frozen" by the US, & lost to the muslim world. This is common to the thirld world. Even the sworn enemies of the west keep the money there. There is perhaps more to it tahn meets the eye. & while many with money are corrupt, some are not. as for the punishments only for the poor, it is not true. Doesn't anyone remember a Saudi princess being executed for zina? & to repeat, while our shirk-laden societes do not like being reminded of Tawheed, i have become sick of seeing people offer sujood to graves & trees, & perform hajj at mazaars. as for their translation of the meanings of the Quran, they distributed others, finally they reworked Yusf Ali's, & i find the result quite pleasing & authentic. If we start criticising on the basis of an article which by its very tone is an ill-informed & prejudiced one, we may have to answer for it in the hereafter. may Allah (swt) forgive & protect us for/ from committing any such sin. & if i have hurt any one's feelings, my apologies. |
| 07/24/03 at 10:23:49 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| lucid9 |
| 07/24/03 at 11:11:53 |
| [slm] How do you rationalize their giving billions and billions to Saddam to fight and kill the Shia in Iran? How do you rationalize the 4 million lives lost because of this? And the resulting mess, leading to a militarily built up Saddam who then takes over Kuwait, which enables foreign powers to jump into the fray and Gulf War I and Gulf War II? You cannot support them just because they appear islamic but do dodgy things at the same time. The Khawarij also appeared islamic, as did many very devisive and nasty groups through islamic history. And look at the mess they created. There is a hadith stating that the one of the worst kinds of people are people whom their neighbors are not safe from. |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| Nomi |
| 07/24/03 at 11:34:18 |
| [slm] Bro lucid but that is not making sense to me because as far as i know, Saudis and Iraqis didn't have good relationships. Weren't they having lots of tension between them around the times of Gulf War so why would Saudis fund Iraqis then ? And we shouldn't blame anyone if we dont have proof, no? Peace brother [i]PS: (and not like the proof that uncle sam told-not-showed to the world b4 attacking Afghanistan and Iraq, but that war is not what i'm talking about at the moment, its the proof....)[/i] *** Modifying *** Arshad bhai, sis Jannah. How about splitting this thread ?? |
| 07/24/03 at 11:38:33 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| lucid9 |
| 07/24/03 at 11:44:12 |
| [slm] Brother Nomi -- during the Iran-Iraq war. The Saudi, Kuwaiti and gulf arab governments financed Saddam. Kuwair alone gave something like $10-15 billion, i think. You must know about the controversy where Kuwait even promised Saddam some of the oil wells in Kuwait. Why don't muslims know about things like this? Non-muslims/foreigners will never be able to destroy islam. Leave it to other muslims to do that. |
| 07/24/03 at 11:52:55 |
| lucid9 |
| Re: Saudio Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| Trustworthy |
| 07/24/03 at 16:41:01 |
| [slm] L9...why are you getting so defensive? We aren't attacking you. Who are you defending? But it was the Muslims who divided the ummah amongst themselves starting after Calipha Ali due to the greed of wealth and power. But that's human nature. That's where the Shaitan comes in and whispers in our ears and it is the weak minds of ours that follow him and the strong ones that don't. Geuss who helps the Shaitan succeed? People who want to the Islamic Ummah destroyed and who want power and wealth. Some Muslims some not. Allahu Alim..... Ma-asalaama... |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| Caraj |
| 07/24/03 at 20:20:46 |
| ok, guess who ::) I have questions please? I have a few friends from Saudi Arabia who live here in the US The say, I am not from Saudi Arabia I am from Arabia. I am told the Saudi part is the name or part of the name of the royal family. What makes this family royal? When and how did they come into power? Can anyone suggest reading material on the history of this country? I am just very curious. Thank you |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| timbuktu |
| 07/24/03 at 21:11:48 |
| [slm] [quote author=lucid9 link=board=ummah;num=1059063780;start=15#24 date=07/24/03 at 11:11:53]How do you rationalize their giving billions and billions to Saddam to fight and kill the Shia in Iran? How do you rationalize the 4 million lives lost because of this? And the resulting mess, leading to a militarily built up Saddam who then takes over Kuwait, which enables foreign powers to jump into the fray and Gulf War I and Gulf War II? You cannot support them just because they appear islamic but do dodgy things at the same time. The Khawarij also appeared islamic, as did many very devisive and nasty groups through islamic history. And look at the mess they created. There is a hadith stating that the one of the worst kinds of people are people whom their neighbors are not safe from.[/quote] dear brother lucid, i do not rationalise their misdeeds. why should i take over anyone else's burdens? mine are heavy enough. but we are trying to understand. Ummah has already been divided. The Islamic Republic of Iran gradually turned into a Shia republic. Imam Khomeini's own early writings showed his bent of mind. If you remember the history of Saudi Arabia, theirs was a systematic & thorough attempt to remove constructions at graves, because these give rise to grave worship. while the shia madhab revolves around these mazaars. So, quite a few Saudis see ppl around these mazaars as mushrikeen. & the export of revolution was definitely on. However much we dislike monarchies, we must realise that no one is going to commit suicide by inviting revolutionaries in. in pakistan, too, this export was tried by Iran. Zia built up the militant sunni factions to counter this, & now we know this has its own dynamics. The Taliban's undoing started because Iran refused to stop support to the Northern Alliance. To apply the Hadith you quoted, the neighbors of Iran did not feel safe. So, when Saddam asked for money, & Uncle Sam advised the Saudis, they parted with the money. To them, Saddam was preferable to Shia Iran. Who could have predicted that saddam will turn on his benefactors? & brother, the Saudis may be corrupt, but they are not Khawarij. let us try to be fair. I would like to know more about their relationship with the US, i think it is not healthy, but i suspect that initially it was due to a misreading of the West, & now it is more of a co-dependency. wallahu Alim. I am not defending everything the Saudis have done or are doing, but i suspect that they are very adept at politics, & have survived because of this. i would not be hurt if they are gone, but if their departure means the coming back to Saudi Arabia of mazaars & the worship of saints, then i dont want that. thre is something linked to this that i would like ppl to talk about: that is there were at least 4 establishments of shari'a-based governments in the muslim world, as a result of movements by: Syed Ahmed Shaheed in NW india, Mehdi Sudani in Sudan, Sanussi in Libya, & Taliban in Afghanistan. All of these were extinguished within decades of establishment. If you regard the Saudi government as shari'a based, it is the only survivng one. *** sister azizah, i did a yahoo search for "Saudi Arabia", & got this: [url]http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Saudi+Arabia&fr=logout[/url] I tried the 3rd one on the list: Saudi Arabia: A Country Study in-depth look at the nation's history, culture, economy, government, politics, and more from the U.S. Library of Congress. lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/satoc.html [url]http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/satoc.html[/url] i think it gives a fair picture, although the role of the US companies & US interests is not clear if one of the learned ones here can refer us to real cool online books, that would be nice. & a word to the moderators. Please let threads continue for a while, we learn a lot, including how to tolerate differences of opinion. |
| 07/25/03 at 03:59:40 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| panjul |
| 07/25/03 at 01:38:43 |
| [slm] So, the funds go to the king, to members of the royal family, to other chiefs, to religious leaders, & this is all traditional. i dont like it, but it is understandable. When we say that we don't like something but we can understand it, we are apologizing for the status quo. That does not help the situation. So the whole of Saudi Arabians say that we don't like it, but it's understandable. Does this mean that the depleting Saudi middle class and it's rising lower-lower class is happy with the situation? If the ditribution of the "funds" as you call them went into the public fairly no one would complain. In the olden/ golden days, when sociities lived with the tribe, and depended on the group effort to survive, that type of economic system was understandable and even desriable. Let's just say there were 400 people in a tribe, 50 people were at the top of the power ladder, the leaders, and the food and money (taxes, charity) all went into their hands. Let's say for every leader there was one layal person ready to defend them against enemies, that leaves 300 people at the lower power level. Now let's say that out of the 300 hundred 150 were very loyal to the 50 tribal elite. The rest were opposed to them because they were not distributing the wealth and food fairly. The dissatisfied people could demand a better way of distrubution just be negotiating. If worse came to worse, there would be a fight (everyone had arms) and a greater chance would exist of them winning and replacing better people as the leaders. Can the same be done now in our mass society? Not that easy to get to the pinces and kings to demand a better economic system, so a higher chances of abuse. So to me, it is not understandable at all how this makes sense because they are a tirbal people. They can still be tribal and maintain a fair and economic system. |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| timbuktu |
| 07/25/03 at 02:48:55 |
| [slm] sister panjul, you make very good points, & i agree that the system should change. how is that change to be brought about? Look at Europe. Very early on, the British learnt that power-sharing makes it possible to escape revolutions. The whole of Europe went thru' series of bloody revolutions, but Britain did not have one after Cromwell. & they went about making slow changes, & escaped large scale violence. Now, which is better: revolution or evolution? i said that the Saudis were adept at politics, they have managed to stay independent in a very volatile & covetious (if that is the word) atmosphere. Their survival is not what interests me. The change you want is also what i want. When I say i understand them, i am not apologising for them, or advocating the status quo. I am saying let us see what forces they have had to contend with, & let us look forces at work there. How are they balanced? What external forces are at work? How can a peaceful change be brought about, without inciting any one of these forces to try a complete takeover by force? Do you remember the time (1979) of the attempted revolt by: Juhaiman ibn Muhammad ibn Saif al Utaiba, who was from one of the foremost families of Najd. His grandfather had ridden with Abd al Aziz in the early decades of the century, and other family members were among the foremost of the Ikhwan. Juhaiman said that his justification was that the Al Saud had lost its legitimacy through corruption, ostentation, and mindless imitation of the West--virtually an echo of his grandfather's charge in 1921 against Abd al Aziz. so while there is the middle class that wants liberty, there are powerful forces that want to go back. i am sure you would not like a showdown on who can kill most of their opponents. would you accept a few deaths so that you get the right to drive in Saudi Arabia, & a permanent violent fissure in that society. also consider that Zionist Israel would welcome instability in its neighbors, so that it can expand. i have been thru' far too many violent changes in my life to advocate more violence. |
| 07/25/03 at 12:26:51 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| lucid9 |
| 07/25/03 at 04:39:36 |
| [slm] Brother timbuktu, So you are saying that the blood of those who support praying at the graves of "saints" or support other kinds of bidaa is halal? That kind of rationale was used to support actions against Iran. And that kind of rationale was used by the al saud tribe (so called "wahabbis") to slaughter many, many, many shia in the past century i think. I for one, find this extremely disturbing and i am not shia. And most disturbing about such a doctrine it that it is open to outrageous political exploitation -- which is what the saudia arabia did during the iran-iraq war. 3-4 million people killed! And many of them sunni -- (iraqis). And countless people (sunni and shia) injured. [slm] |
| 07/25/03 at 04:46:08 |
| lucid9 |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| timbuktu |
| 07/25/03 at 08:12:35 |
| [slm] dear brother lucid [quote author=lucid9 link=board=ummah;num=1059063780;start=30#32 date=07/25/03 at 04:39:36]So you are saying that the blood of those who support praying at the graves of "saints" or support other kinds of bidaa is halal? That kind of rationale was used to support actions against Iran.[/quote] dear brother, i was very shocked. i asked myself, have i said any such thing. i looked again, & i did not find any. but if you have deduced such from my statements, i apologise. i do not think that ahle bida'a are to be slaughtered. i think the undoing of the taleban was partly because they did not understand that ahle bida'a are to be brought into the fold thru' gentle dawah. brother, muslims have shed muslim blood since the 3rd Caliph Uthmaan. are we going to let our societies be destabilised & run over & colonised because of revenge for murders committed to our past generations? Let us look at the world today, let us review what it has been in the last few centuries, let us see what the challenges are, & see the way forward. if you can convince me that a series of bloody revolutions is in the interest of the Ummah, i will join you. i asked: let us analyse muslim societies & countries, but let us do so without getting emotional, because we want to arrive at some conclusion which will benefit the Ummah. we do not just want to score points. at least i have no points to score. brother, taking a life or giving fatwa for such an action, is a very grave matter. You will find from my posts that i refrain from issuing ordinary fatwas as well, because my knowledge is not enough. i try to collect & present the facts as they are, without prejudice. I do indicate what my inclination is. & i want to arrive at a conclusion whereby the Ummah may come out of its bondage. have i cleared up what i think? but i am not quite sure what the critics want. would you be happy with uprisings in the muslim world, which shed more & more muslim blood, & give a chance to the outsiders to play judge? would you really like that? |
| 07/25/03 at 08:33:19 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Burn it? |
|---|
| lucid9 |
| 07/25/03 at 09:58:09 |
| Assalamu alaikum Brother Timbuktu, I didn't mean any harm. The reason why i asked was because of this: [quote author=timbuktu link=board=ummah;num=1059063780;start=15#29 date=07/24/03 at 21:11:48] The Islamic Republic of Iran gradually turned into a Shia republic. Imam Khomeini's own early writings showed his bent of mind. If you remember the history of Saudi Arabia, theirs was a systematic & thorough attempt to remove constructions at graves, because these give rise to grave worship. while the shia madhab revolves around these mazaars. So, quite a few Saudis see ppl around these mazaars as mushrikeen. [/quote] And this is the kind of justification lots of religious people gave for supporting war against Iran. We should also recall that Khomeini was a shia leader who definately tried to soften the Shia Sunni divide. For example he is one of the first people (i think) who said that a shia can pray behind a sunni. |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| timbuktu |
| 07/25/03 at 12:15:06 |
| [slm] thank you brother for pointing out where i should have clarified. maybe other people give justifications. i try to recall the history, so that we can understand the environment, & seek a course whereby at least we do not repeat the same mistakes. believe me, i was not justifying, i was showing what the mindset of those people was, so that we can figure out how to approach a problem where two sections of the Ummah see each other as kafir. after the islamic revolution in iran, i was one of its greatest supporters, & i attended many meetings, & saw first-hand how it was being manipulated into becoming purely shia movement, at least in pakistan. the west was bent upon making this rift wider, & our ppl played into their hands. & then gradually it became a shia phenomenon. brother, even the arab sheikhs have seen the writing on the wall, but they feel boxed in. The greatest danger today is destabilisation in the Middle East, which will go in favour of Israel, & there wil be a human catastrophe of a large magnitude. |
| 07/25/03 at 12:23:55 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| BroHanif |
| 07/25/03 at 13:46:59 |
| Salaams, After reading this post there is only one answer to all of this, its effective dawah and understanding to how to convey it. What can we all do ? Simple adhere to the Quran and Sunnah, today we look for solutions from all over, management sciences, politcal sciences to Harvard yet the answer is in the Quran: [center]Corruption has appeared in both land and sea because of what people’s own hands have brought about so that they may taste something of what they have done so that hopefully they will turn back. ((Qur'an, 30:41) [/center] When we leave the Quran and Sunnah that will be our downfall, it was predicted 1400 years ago and it is now happening. Salaams Hanif |
| NS |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| Sparrow |
| 07/27/03 at 22:54:03 |
| QUOTE:How kids in Indian Embassy schools or Pakistani Embassy schools were told to cover up and dress modestly even when on campus but it hardly mattered if the kids who went to British or American Embassy schools wore tank tops and shorts after taking off their abayas on campus?? END QUOTE Not in any of the Western schools I attended or visited while I lived in Saudi from age 12 to 18. After third grade (if I remember correctly the exact grade, I think it was 8 years old) we were not allowed to wear shorts, short skirts, tight tops, tanks, etc. boys and girls alike. This was the 80s so jeans and big tshirts were usually what we wore to school. Anyone wearing inappropriate clothing would most likely have been given a long skirt or sweat pants from the "just in case" box the principal kept in his office just in case being teenagers anyone tried anything silly. Course embassy schools might have had their own rules, can't remember if I ever visited there.... I loved living in Saudi. Was there just three years ago visiting me folks, who sadly were recently caught up in the bombings. It was really scary but I would also like to mention that they received no less than 20 calls from Saudi friends and co-workers concerned for them. Peace, Sparrow |
| 07/27/03 at 22:56:19 |
| Sparrow |
| Why women in Saudi Arabia prefer NOT to drive |
|---|
| bhaloo |
| 08/05/03 at 23:58:50 |
| [slm] SUMMARY: Why women in Saudi Arabia prefer NOT to drive (Because Gulf "Muslim" men are insatiably corrupt). http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=29729&d=3&m=8&y=2003 JEDDAH, 3 August 2003 — The question of whether Saudi women should be allowed to drive has generated a heated debate. One of the main arguments given against allowing women to drive is that they themselves do not in fact want to, mainly because they do not feel protected from personal harassment. Another put forward is that, in the eventuality of an accident there would be no female police officers to attend. The latter is easily fixed; employ some. The former however is a more intractable problem with its cause deep in the social system. A depressingly frequent spectacle on Jeddah's fashionable Tahlia Street is women, covered in their abayas and seated respectably in the back of a car, being trailed or even chased by a dozen or more young, and frequently not-so-young, men in their cars. Recently, a small station wagon carrying three college-aged women and their driver was recently tailed on Tahlia Street for over one kilometer by no less than 15 cars. This armada did not stop for any of the red traffic lights and went unchallenged by three police officers posted along the route. The procession went on for a few minutes at a snail's pace, blocking the flow of traffic, before the station wagon was forced off the road and into a parking lot. There, two young men emerged from their late-model Mercedes and attempted to open the rear doors of the car carrying the women. The women lowered their windows and screamed for help from a security guard. As he alerted the police, some of the drivers left, while others parked their cars and followed the women in to a mall. Quite apart of the damming social comment made on Saudi males by a gaggle of testosterone-fuelled men trailing women like a herd of hopeful Tomcats, the threat and intimidation to the targets of their attentions must have been nerve-wracking to say the least. Is the Saudi male so frustrated that he takes to this? The frequency and volume of anecdotal evidence and the number of incidents we witnessed in one evening lends support to the answer "yes." The potential threat seen from the women's' perspective seems to justify any claim to not wanting to drive from a perceived lack of security. An Arab News investigation has revealed that this problem is not only linked to women driving, but to all women who go out in public — even walking — in Saudi Arabia in general. Two Arab News interns, Fatima Balgheet and Fatima Aqeel, went undercover as decoys for a drive along Tahlia Street. Behind the interns, in another car, was Arab News staffer Roger Harrison, equipped with a camera and telephoto lens. In the first 20 minutes, three men attempted to exchange phone numbers with the women, but since they were ignored they soon gave up. The interns commented that the majority of male drivers, if ignored, usually gave up their pestering. However, some women encouraged the boys, they added, and that is what at times leads to situations that quickly get out of control. After being driven around for another 15 minutes, Fatima Aqeel said: "What is happening now with these cars is nothing. You should see what happens when we walk." The row of shops along the northern side of Tahlia Street west of Madinah Road was chosen as the area where the interns should walk as if they were going about their shopping. This area has police officers stationed every few hundred meters on foot as well as policemen roaming the area in patrol cars and on horses. This large police presence did little to deter the onslaught of hopeful males, which began within seconds of the interns exiting the car. As the interns made their way west along the row of shops they were followed by nine cars. One man in a maroon Grand Marquis followed them for half-an-hour. He became increasingly aggressive in his speech and his driving, coming within centimeters of bumping into the interns several times. So persistent was he that, even though he saw both photographer and camera, he still insisted on pressing his suit. Part of the experiment was to see whether the police are aware of this problem, and what they do about it when it happens right under the noses. The answer is that they did precisely nothing. Indeed, the only action they took was to question this journalist, demanding to know why I was taking pictures of the women. The fact that I was wearing clothing that normally would have been worn by an Asian ex-pat driver and carrying a camera worth the equivalent of five years of his wages didn't seem to them worth commenting on or checking. Actually walking the ground, another problem manifested itself as a direct contributor to harassment. There are no pavements to walk on. Outside the shops, marble terraces of differing heights form a disconnected crazy paving. Walking on the road next to the shops is impossible — cars are parked tight up against the broken walkways. The only place it is possible to walk unobstructed is in the road itself. This could be misinterpreted as a provocative action or advertising your `availability' by cruising drivers. In reality, it is placing yourself in the way of an accident as well as unwanted attentions. The simple pleasure of walking in the street `window shopping' is actually is often an impossibility in this 21st century city. Parked across the street in the eastbound lanes was the maroon Grand Marquis, 45 minutes after the driver, still living in hope, had initially tried to get the attention of the two interns. |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| jannah |
| 08/06/03 at 00:24:40 |
| [wlm] wow ok [quote]One of the main arguments given against allowing women to drive is that they themselves do not in fact want to, mainly because they do not feel protected from personal harassment.[/quote] Why don't they let the women decide? This seems like a cop-out to keep the present law in place. Once there are *thousands* of women driving.. old and young, married and unmarried I doubt they'd get harassed like that just because they're driving a car? It becomes commonplace. As for walking down the street, in the malls etc, that happens in most Muslims countries because the guys are disgusting and for some reason it's not discouraged. If we were to analyze and get to the root of it, I'd say it's because the women are not seen as people but as objects --even and despite their wearing hijab. If women are seen as objects and the culture and teachings of a country enforce that hijab can only do so much. There was an article I read about how women were not allowed to work in stores in Saudi, even in lingerie stores for women! Remember how disgusted I was by that in Syria.. I'll try to find it again. |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| jannah |
| 08/06/03 at 00:28:10 |
| Underneath, Saudi women keep their secrets Jeddah: Nema Basheer is an undercover agent of sorts. Clad in a black shroud that is de rigeur for women in public here, she carries out her clandestine work with some of this ultraconservative kingdom's wealthiest women, selling them underwear. "How are you?" she effuses, greeting a young woman with a kiss at the Perdu lingerie store here, a glass and brushed-steel aquarium of tropical-colored thongs and teddies and tango-cut panties and bras. She sends the woman off with a word of advice and a raw-silk shopping bag, intended to give patrons a bit of privacy while picking out their most intimate apparel. Ms. Basheer, technically the company's marketing director, is not supposed to be in the store at all because, under Saudi Arabia's strict interpretation of Islam, women are barred from selling in places open to the public. If she is caught by the mutawa, bearded men who roam the streets looking for offenders of the faith, she could be expelled from the country. It is one of the great ironies of this theologically strait-jacketed land that while women may be berated for showing a shoulder, a leg or an arm, they must ask strange men for help in assessing their bra size. Many women are so humiliated by the prospect of discussing their bodies with male salesmen that they just guess. As a result, Ms. Basheer says, about 85 percent of Saudi women are wearing the wrong size bras. Her risky venture into the underworld of women's wardrobes is part of a quiet but growing trend among women here to fight some of the minor injustices they suffer in a society designed almost exclusively by men and for men. Women are beginning to speak out in newspaper columns and letters to editors about matters in which they can clearly claim the moral high ground, like the inadequate time and space given to female visitors at the prophet Muhammad's tomb. Expanding the narrow window of employment opportunities for an increasingly educated female population is another area where women have grown more assertive. More than half of the graduates from the kingdom's universities and colleges are now women, though they make up less than 7 percent of the work force. Women are explicitly barred from some jobs like public sales (they are allowed to sell in women-only stores that bar entrance to men), while other fields are simply untested. "Even in marketing there are no regulations that specifically allow women to work," says Ehap Abdullah Mashat, owner of the Perdu lingerie store. "So you never know what is okay." Mr. Mashat is a lingerie leader following in the footsteps of his father, who imported the first bras to Saudi Arabia nearly a half century ago. Next year, he plans to open a sister store in Mecca, where his father already has a small shop opposite the Grand Mosque, which draws strctly observant Muslims from around the world. He claims to be the first in his industry to employ a female marketing director, let alone to allow a woman to sell actively in an underwear store open to the public. He is also the first to open a lingerie store in which women can pick and choose merchandise without having to ask for it from a man behind a counter. The store opened to great fanfare, but not without some trouble. Mr. Mashat's California-designed mannequins, stylized raw-silk dressmaker dummies with the slightest of curves, were stopped from entering the country by zealous customs officials who insisted that they were statues forbidden under the country's strict interpretation of Islamic law, under which representations of the human form are considered potential idols. Mr. Mashat eventually brought them in "another way." Because chauffeurs lined up in front of the store's two-story high glass windows to watch their female charges pick through the panties, long gauzy banners now hang over the storefront, covering up what lies inside. Still, the mutawa religious police have come to call. They found the secret fitting room inside Perdu's bathroom (fitting rooms are not allowed in Saudi Arabia) and demanded the removal of its full-length mirror. A wooden panel now covers the wall where the mirror used to be. His biggest problem, though, is actually selling women the bits of underclothing he imports into a country where only men may do that job. "Our sales would jump by 35 percent if we could employ women," he laments. Instead, Egyptians, Lebanese and Syrian men in pale, blue short-sleeved shirts serve as his lingerie salesmen. They are trained to stay at least six feet away from women shoppers and to busy themselves with merchandise until they are called upon for help. Most important, they are trained never to utter a size out loud, which is a far cry from the old-style underwear countermen who, many Saudi women complain, delight in loudly announcing the size of every item requested. Then, there is Ms. Basheer, to dispense advice about the red sheer baby dolls trimmed in white fluff or to encourage the sale of an elaborate lace robe and nightgown set for $4,000. "Arab women spend much more money on lingerie than American women do," she says, adding that despite their black wrapper, Saudi women are very colorful a few layers down. "Because they live in such a closed society, many Saudi women enjoy themselves by wearing fancy lingerie all the time." (Courtesy: NY Times) |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| panjul |
| 08/06/03 at 01:23:35 |
| [slm] ok, i have an idea. how about give therapy to saudi men? Or lower the testosterone levels. ::) |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| bhaloo |
| 08/06/03 at 09:41:29 |
| [slm] [quote author=jannah link=board=ummah;num=1059063780;start=30#39 date=08/06/03 at 00:24:40] As for walking down the street, in the malls etc, that happens in most Muslims countries because the guys are disgusting and for some reason it's not discouraged. [/quote] Yeah, I remember stuff like this happening in Pakistan. I can't seem to recall now if I saw any women working in public places in Pakistan. i.e. restaurants, grocery markets, etc. I would imagine if they did, they would encounter the same problem. Obviously the men need to lower their gaze, but is there anything that can be done for now? |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| timbuktu |
| 08/06/03 at 10:00:18 |
| [slm] societies in transition are under stress. & since the rate of information is great in this electronic age, the stresses are greater. & sister jannah is right, once women start driving in numbers, the rate of acceptance will rise steeply. wish there were some sociologist on this board who could throw some light on the muslim societies in transition, because a lot of instability is likely to be incurred here. |
| 08/06/03 at 10:45:34 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| Nomi |
| 08/06/03 at 13:20:52 |
| [slm] Somebody in some thread said that the board is sometimes too open. Applying the open gear, right, now.... [quote] As a result, Ms. Basheer says, about 85 percent of Saudi women are wearing the wrong size bras. [/quote] Proof? i need proof? Was the writer just trying to be funny or there is some reality behind that? Even if it is true then why is the writer so much concerned about saudi women only. How about rest of the Muslim world? do all the muslim countries have female salesperson for this ? nope, atleast in Pakistan we dont. There would be many more as well. But ofcourse i dont need the proof! all i would like to say about the quoted part is that why is the writer not concerned about "westernized" (showy etc) women of US, Europe etc coz nearly all of em might be wearing a wrong size i.e. small ::) We fell so easily for such articles as they generalize about most of the things. [quote] ok, i have an idea. how about give therapy to saudi men? Or lower the testosterone levels [/quote] Like i said, we generalize too much. There are many good saudi men around who have sky high faiths and are practical too, so plz dont bash all of em. i apologize if my comments hurt anyone Peace. |
| 08/06/03 at 13:23:28 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| panjul |
| 08/06/03 at 21:51:00 |
| [slm] In pakistan, yes they do. There are a lot of men that do sell undergarments for the women but their are also women in many shops that offer thier services. I have seen it with my very own eyes, in cities like karachi and islamabad, lahore, pindi, quayto, abotabad, but beyond abotabad (where i'm from), there are no such services. So my family goes to abotabad to do their shopping for undergarments. Where i am from a woman can't walk down the street safely if she does not have her head covered, in abotabad only a few miles away, women are able to do that and they are the ones who offer services by women to the women. But the religious or so they call themselves will have a tanturm fit if a woman did the same in a bazar there! Oh by the way, did you know they have a women's only bazar!? It's called Aurton ka bazar. But it's run by men. ??? And if women in western socities wear bras a size or two short, it's their choice to do so. Women in many muslim countries wear the wrong size because they don't have the choice to try on or get their fit because they are embarassed to be served by men. And the focus on Saudi Arabai is because their law is written down on paper. In other muslim countries as far as I know it's more of a cultural thing, to discourage women from working, even if they would only serve women. Are you guys ready for a story? Some distant relative of mine thought himself very pious and would not let his wife go shopping or his daughters. He would bring his wife and little duaghters underwear (and bras for the mom) himself. But when his duaghters got older he had a problem, his wife couldn't tell him their daugher's bra needs or their sizes...so she was finally allowed to venture out of the house. ::) |
| 08/06/03 at 21:56:35 |
| panjul |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| panjul |
| 08/06/03 at 21:59:04 |
| Oh and about the story, he even brought their clothes for them, the kitchen utensils, the bathroon rugs, the soap the shoes... |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| timbuktu |
| 08/07/03 at 00:32:54 |
| [slm] i know a worse story. it would have been hilarious if it wern't true. this clean-shaven educated man, not an extremist, in islamabad, used to lock up his wife (also educated) when going to work. |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| Nomi |
| 08/07/03 at 13:52:41 |
| [slm] [quote author=panjul link=board=ummah;num=1059063780;start=45#45 date=08/06/03 at 21:51:00] In pakistan, yes they do. There are a lot of men that do sell undergarments for the women but their are also women in many shops that offer thier services. I have seen it with my very own eyes [/quote] Sis you must be knowing of the percentage as well. 5% even if i stretch it but n e ways thats not the main issue here. [quote author=panjul link=board=ummah;num=1059063780;start=45#45 date=08/06/03 at 21:51:00] And if women in western socities wear bras a size or two short, it's their choice to do so. [/quote] Exactly, then why dint n e body object to the writer of that article saying such stuff for saudi women ! [quote author=panjul link=board=ummah;num=1059063780;start=45#45 date=08/06/03 at 21:51:00] Women in many muslim countries wear the wrong size because they don't have the choice to try on or get their fit because they are embarassed to be served by men. [/quote] I'm targetting my next comments to the writer from NY times.... I found this so hilarious, lets assume someone got the wrong size first time they bought, then they find out that its either small or large, next time on they buy accordingly and this time it would be ok inshAllah then how come you said that 85% women in saudi arabia.. blah blah... I'm feeling very uneasy writing this post same for my previous one, but i just had to ::) [quote] this clean-shaven educated man, not an extremist, in islamabad, used to lock up his wife (also educated) when going to work. [/quote] How stupid of him. Peace and no heart feelings inshAllah |
| 08/07/03 at 13:59:56 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| Nabila |
| 08/07/03 at 16:46:44 |
| [slm] I think that article is exaggerating the position of the woman. In saudi, there are many things in Saudi that are *technically* not allowed, but no one bothers to enforce these laws, and this is one example of this. No one is going to touch that business, her life is not indanger. There are actually stores and things that have women running them, and religious police to keep men out. Bro Nomi - am gonna be frank :/ I get what you are saying, about making such a big deal about that stastic. I think they just pointed it because it is serious (not hugely so, obviously, but in the context of the article. Maybe you dont realise that having the wrong sized bra is not only irritating and uncomfortable, but it can have an adverse effect on the body as well. If a woman is not wearing a properly fitted bra, this does not give the right support and movement might be difficult and result in chafing and soreness. I think everyone gets the picture, yeah? Sorry again, but it was just to clarify. Please edit if you think you have to, mods. :) I cant believe the socio-politacal debate about Saudi Arabia has been boiled down to bras. So that was what was wrong all these years! :D ma asalaamah and take care |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| panjul |
| 08/07/03 at 23:09:31 |
| [slm] 5% even if i stretch it but n e ways Where do you come up with that statistic? From what I have seen, i would say more but i can't give you any statistics. and saudi women don't have the choice, that's the point Nomi, if they have a choice and they still want to wear wrong sized bras, then that's their problem. just like it's the western women's problem for wearing a size short. |
| Re: Saudi Arabia: Utopia or Dystopia? |
|---|
| Nomi |
| 08/08/03 at 03:51:22 |
| [slm] It can go on and on but i quit. Peace to all. |
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board |