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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Hot discussions |
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| IMuslim_4Ever |
| 08/04/03 at 22:46:17 |
| [slm] How are you all my brothers and sisters of islam? Inshaallah you all are in good health... tonight, just about ten minutes ago, my family had hot dicussion regarding different issues of islam. the discussion have left me thinking: :o :o :o :o "wow!!! what is going to be the result of many different cultural orianted islam in America??" do you guys know what i mean? to make myself clear i will write what kind of topics we have discussed... first of all, we, my family are from the Mazhab Hanafi, (do you know what i mean? do you guys know about the four Imam? ) my parents visited in Virginia and they have gone to the mosques there. btw, we live in New Jersey. anyways, over there they saw people practicing islam a little different than people here. for example, they think its the best for women to go to the mosque and pray, even pray Jummah, their men wear cloths covering like the women...like covering the ankle and everything...stuff like that and so on... i heard that men's cloth is suppose to be higher...can't cover the ankle so what do you guys think? ??? is it the best for women to go to mosque all the time? even when their first thing is to take care of the family, especially husband? according to what i learned so far, i read and heard that whats best for a women is, first, to make her family happy, take care of her husband and kids, then if she has time she can go and pray at the mosque. isn't there a Hadith saying that what best for women is to pray at home? she gets more good deeds if she prays at home. am i wrong? another thing we argued was about education...how some ppl say that women can't or shouldn't try to get education, because she will not be successful. and they say that if she wears Niqab she won't be able to get education because the world won't give her a chance. now i am confuse!! don't ppl see that theres lots of scholors who are women, wearing Niqab and abiding by islamic shariah. rt? ??? what i am trying to say is that i think because islam is in many different countries and because there are different cultures, the real islam is, as time passing, not followed. ppl of different cultures are making islam the way that its the easiest for them...the way thats more permeable to their own cultures... i hope i am clear enough...don't want to confuse anybody. sorry if i did. anyways, i am really confuse...should women then stop getting an education because they can't get education without having men around? that it will be hard for them to get a job wearing Niqab? shouldn't we follow the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet [saw] rather than making our own stuff influenced by our own cultures? what is our role as a young muslimah? how can we make ppl understand that our Prophet [saw] in his last adress said that women should get education in order to raise educated children. i am lost... ma salaama |
| 08/04/03 at 22:50:15 |
| IMuslim_4Ever |
| Re: Hot discussions |
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| timbuktu |
| 08/05/03 at 12:16:37 |
| [slm]sister, you are rightly confused, but dont worry too much about it. there are a lot of learned ppl here who can give you very detailed replies. i will try to put it in my layman's terms, & i hope it will give you the right perspective but it will take me some time to put my thoughts together, so you will have to wait for my input. & if in the meantime someone comes up with a better, more illuminatimng answer, then i will just take a back seat. all i can say now is that the four mazhab that you know of, plus a few that most haven't heard of & that have sort of died away, plus the mazhab of salafis/ ahle hadith/ non-muqallideen, have the same roots - the Quraan & Sunnah of the prophet [saw]. insha'Allah, i will try to explain later. |
| Re: Hot discussions |
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| Nomi |
| 08/05/03 at 19:06:39 |
| [slm] I follow the Hanafis too but i'm all about unity among Muslims and my best friends come from different school of thoughts, we do discuss religion but never ever do we end up with a bad taste in our mouths coz we must and do respect what others believe in. <= Thats the pre-script :) Yes it is recommended for women to offer salah in their homes. I came across a hadith that says, for women, offering salah in home is preferred over offering salah in masjid and offering salah in a room is preferred over corridor within the house. Having said that, women must not be stopped when they want to go to masjid for their salah Ankle and men? well there was a topic in the men's section which i'm thinking of bringing up again coz i'm not satisfied with what i do i.e. cover my ankle. Many many hadiths ask us men not to cover our ankle but there is just one in which Prophet Muhammad [saw] replied respected Abu Bakr [ra] that as he doen't do it out of pride so its okay. I wonder that if another translation of this particular hadith would be like "Abu Bakr if it got done by mistake so there is no burden of sin on you", mean to say that it remains not allowed. Niqab and edu/job? Many many women/men also believe that observing hijab is an obstacle in getting education, so should hijabis stop observing hijab then? ofcourse not, same is the case with Niqabi sisters, they should continue observing Niqab no matter what ppl say. Its just another test for us Muslims, our whole life is full of such trials. From experience i also know that one big reason for many women not observing Niqab is that ppl think of Niqabi sisters as illiterate so many can't take this pressure of stereotyping. Thats why i always want to see more Niqabi sisters getting highly educated to make the world see its stereotyping gone a begging. Job? i'm not for working women just for career purposes, if one wants to be a doctor for females/kids or want to be a teacher for females/kids then its all fine in "normal circumstances" but if someone's mehram is there to provide for a sister then she should only get edu as a backup for hard times (may Allah protect us all) and for guiding/bringing-up her kids well (ofcourse with the help of hubby). Niqabi and job availability? Only once i saw a Niqabi at a software house where my friend works, although i lowered my gaze like usual but inside i was HAPPY....... i mean really HAPPY....... she must be having her valid reasons for being a working-lady (i should think positive, right?)... strong she was, mashAllah. wassalam A brother in islam PS: an i really really appreciate hijabi/jilbabi sisters too. May Allah [swt] reward all of you, ameen |
| 08/05/03 at 20:28:50 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Hot discussions |
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| IMuslim_4Ever |
| 08/05/03 at 20:22:32 |
| [slm] Thank you brothers.... thank you timbaktu for attempting to reply...rery nice of you... and brother Nomi, thats a wonderful and through reply. :) Sukran ;-) i was planning to wear Jelbab (the long dress) and lots of ppl keep on telling me that i won't be respected in this western culture. "sigh" i really don't care what western culture would level me, all i care about is being a good muslimah and living my life according to the islamic shariah... anyways i am starting college from September and everybody around me is like don't wear that...you won't get a good job...( i have to take care of myself, so i need a job, its not for extra, but its a necessity). and i was discouraged... thank you for your comments...you really did help me out brother. i totally agree with you... becasue of those stereotype, lots of Niqabi sister are hled back... Niqabi sisters sure need to be encouraged to get education and even work, in a suitable settings ofcourse... a setting where there less male contact... i guess a pediatricain is a good idea... inshaallah i want to become that... pray for me every1... ttyl... ma salaam |
| Re: Hot discussions |
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| timbuktu |
| 08/06/03 at 03:34:24 |
| [slm] brother Nomi has given very suitable answers. Here now is my two cents worth: how did we get our Deen? Sahaba met, saw, heard the prophet (saw) at different times & for different periods. Whatever each one saw, or heard etc. he recorded as a Sunnah. They did something, & the prophet (sw) did not stop them, so that also became permitted. These Sahaba came from various places, or met the prophet in various palces, or went for dawa or Jihad, & settled there. initially, Sahaba exchanged news & views with each other, sometimes a consensus or a ruling was required, & a shura was called. Then the tabieen asked questions of whichever Sahabi they found. people tend to rely on what is available locally because travel was not all that easy. Because of the dispersal & the fact that Sahaba had met the prophet (saw)& observed slightly different things that i have mentioned, slight variations in practice developed. In fact, i read it somewhere, although i cant give a reference, that when Ali (ra) went to Kufa, & led the prayers, after the prayers one Sahabi (who had been resident in Kufa), said to his companion, something like: "Today this man (Ali) has reminded us of what we used to do when the prophet (saw) was alive. We used to do rafa-yaden (raising of hands), & we forgot it over the years here." So, practice changed a little with time, & place. think of occassions when a grandchild learns to offer Salah from his old grandfather. The old man may not be able to go to the mosque often, may not be able to offer all Salah while standing, & may do so while sitting. If the reason is not explained to the child, the child will assume that it is OK to offer Salah in any position, & may pass on this "wisdom" to his children when he grows up. Loss of knowledge is one of the ways in which we are tested. Similarly, he may learn it from his too busy mother, & may absorb some of her peculiarities. As need was felt, schools of thought began to emerge, based on local eminent personalities: Imama Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik, Imam Shafi'ee, Imama Ahmed ibn Hanbali. There were other (Imam Auzai'ee, etc. whose school sort of died out). All these Imams had access to AHadith, & used their knowledge (Imam Abu Hanifa had a council where matters were discussed & finalised) to collate & codify rulings. All these Imams said something like: if you find any Saheeh Hadith which goes against my opinion, throw out my opinion, & accept the Hadith" initially, people did not follow a particular mazhab. Whenever a problem arose, they would ask the nearest scholar, & act accordingly. even within the same mazhab, the eminent scholars could & did disagree with the founder of that mazhab, & still be counted as a followers of that mazhab. But as is wont by people, they gradually turned into hardliners, & started sticking to their "own" faqihs, attacking each other's mazhab. You would not believe it, but there were riots in Abbasi Baghdad between Hanafis & Shafi'ees. The Shafi'ee called the Hanafis ahl-ur-Raey meaning those who just acted according to (empty) opinions. & the Hanafis called them something equally demeaning. having forgotten that both were founded on Quraan & Hadith. after a few such episodes & the loss of several lives, the ulema of various mazahib got together & decided that their roots were one & hence no need for clashes. However, among the common people, this continues to some extent. ignorance of roots of Deen & prejudice - for & against - are common reasons for the heated debates, & anger leading to violence. a case in point is the Indo-Pak subcontinent. Islam came here thru' Sindh, & in a short while scholarship of Hadith developed to such an extent that people used to come here for learning. Politically Muslim Sindh was divided into two states, Deebal & Mansoora. These were at war often, & scholars started leaving. Then the area came under the control of Hindus, & from them it went to Qaramateh. These latter were Ismailis (Fatimids, albeit of an extreme form). They made Multan their HQ. Eventually they were dislodged by Mahmud of Ghazni. After that, the Islam that came here was thru' Afghanistan, & it leaned almost exclusively on Hanafi fiqh. The Sunni Muslims who had links directly with the Arabs are mostly either Salafis, Malikis, Shafi'ees or Hanbalis. Those who learnt of Islam thru' the Turks were Hanafis. Hence the difference. anyway, the Indian kings were mostly interested in conquests & controlling the populace, hence their emphasis was on codification of laws. So the Hanafi fiqh suited them well. The books on AHadith that started coming into India were secondary books. In fact the first book that came here was Mishkaat-ul-Masabih, which is a secondary book. However other books (& primary sources) are now available. However, since the Sunnis in Afghanistan & Indo-Pak subcontinent are mostly Hanafis, their leaning towards Hanafi fiqh is understandible, as also their surprise on finding other Muslims praying a little differently. However, with info so readily available, the differences should now be acceptible to all. Now for the specific points in your post: [quote]i heard that men's cloth is suppose to be higher...can't cover the ankle[/quote] i agree [quote]is it the best for women to go to mosque all the time? even when their first thing is to take care of the family, especially husband? according to what i learned so far, i read and heard that whats best for a women is, first, to make her family happy, take care of her husband and kids, then if she has time she can go and pray at the mosque. isn't there a Hadith saying that what best for women is to pray at home? she gets more good deeds if she prays at home. am i wrong? [/quote] it is true, but experience of Afghanistan & the Indo-Pak subcontinent tells us that women are prone to a lot of bid'aa because their exposure to Deen is limited. If they go to the mosque, at least they have a chance to lsiten to the khutba (which is now, fortunately preceded by a lecture in the vernacular language). And this going out means she will get some sunlight, & wont stay locked up in a house with no sunlight - believe me, one of my cousins went thru' this, coz of the jihallah of her in-laws. [quote]how some ppl say that women can't or shouldn't try to get education, because she will not be successful. and they say that if she wears Niqab she won't be able to get education because the world won't give her a chance. now i am confuse!! don't ppl see that theres lots of scholars who are women, wearing Niqab and abiding by islamic shariah. rt?[/quote] ppl are blinded by their prejudices & their selfishness. this is incredible. education is a must. & if there is discrimination, you have to fight it, not give in & lock yourself out of knowledge. There is a girl in Egypt, she obtained a medical degree, & when she went for a job, the Director just exploded on seeing her in Hijab. At that time hijab had been abandoned in Egypt. He refused to give any Hijabi woman a job. But the girl fought for her right, got the job, & is now a very successful doctor as well as a da'iyah. i follow the Salafi school, & encourage others to be more open-minded, & to learn for themselves. Islam gives a lot of freedom, within the bounds of Shar'ia. |
| 08/06/03 at 08:37:58 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Hot discussions |
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| IMuslim_4Ever |
| 08/06/03 at 22:11:06 |
| [slm] thank you for your thorough reply.... i understand about the issues of four imams and i know that all the base is really the Quran and the Sunnah of our Prophet [saw] about women going to the mosque i found some hadith from a Indo-Pak newspaper, in the news paper an Imam name Muhibbur Rahman wrote that it is true during the Prophet [saw] time women are allowed to go to the mosque. That era was wayyyyyyyyyyyy different than todays world!!!!!!!!!!! They wouldn't worry about boys and girls getting mixed, because they were very very relgious...All they care about is going to Jannah...being good muslims and so on... After the Prophet [saw] left us, his wife Ayesha [ra] siad that if the Prophet [saw] was alive at that time (when she made this comment) he wouldn't have allowed women to go to the mosque!!! (Bukahri, and Muslim) imagine even that time women wouldn't be allowed to go to the mosque and that time was veryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy different that how it is in this centuary!!!!!!!!!!!!!! do don't you guys think its the best for women to stay at home?? why should women go to the mosque when its not necessary?? Hazrath Abdullah Ibn Omaar [ra] said that the Prophet [saw] said (for his time) don't prevent women from going to the mosque, but whats best for them is to do the prayer in their home. (Abu Daud, Hakim, Sohi Ibn Kuzaima) to earn islamic knowledge women should go to Islamic schools made for women only! sure they can get some sun light there. :) thank you very much for sharing your knowledge... i am really greatful... ma salaama |
| Re: Hot discussions |
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| timbuktu |
| 08/06/03 at 22:58:14 |
| [slm]you made some valid points, & i like that remark about sunlight. except for the Hanafi school practiced in Afghanistan, & the Indo-Pak sub-continent, & where their ppl have emigrated to, all other muslim lands allow women to enter & say their prayers in mosques. in the Jamae masjid ahle-hadith at Frere Road, karachi, i found that the women's section was separated from the men's, & the entrance was also separate. in Faisal mosque at Islamabad, the upper floor is reserved for women, & their door is separate. the importance is khutba which carries a lot of information, & refernces to the Quraan & Ahadeeth. that is how the prophet [saw] communicated Allah's message. not many women have access to schooling, & after marriage they get entangled in their household duties. it should be expanded, i agree. lack of education is the hallmark of muslim societies, & this should be remedied. i, for one, would prefer my female relatives to go to mosques where they have a separate section for muslimahs. men & women are not two different species, there is segregation to an extent. & we must not go beyond what Allah (swt) & HIS prophet [saw] have prescribed for us, else we may unnecessarily create problems for ourselves. This problem is visible in the madrassas where our Talibaan are taught. They become very narrow-minded, & unable to communicate with females. when there is too much separation, society can begin to crack up. |
| Re: Hot discussions |
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| Nomi |
| 08/07/03 at 13:21:43 |
| [slm] [quote author=timbuktu link=board=ummah;num=1060047978;start=0#6 date=08/06/03 at 22:58:14] This problem is visible in the madrassas where our Talibaan are taught. They become very narrow-minded, & unable to communicate with females. [/quote] I'm with u on this but i just want people to know that there are "many" exceptions out there. I know this from experience. Peace |
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