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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Group Dhikr |
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| Nawawi |
| 08/07/03 at 06:33:13 |
| Hadiths on Group Dhikr. Anas reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "When you come upon the meadows of the Garden, graze in them." He was asked, "What are the meadows of the Garden?" "Circles of dhikr," he replied. [at-Tirmidhi) Abu Hurayra reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Allah Almighty has angels who travel the highways and by-ways seeking out gatherings of dhikr in the earth. When they find a gathering of dhikr, they enfold them with their wings stretching up to the heaven. Allah asks them, 'From where have you come?' They reply, 'We have come from Your slaves who are glorifying You, praising You, proclaiming Your oneness, asking of You and seeking refuge with You.' He says – and He knows better than them, 'What are they asking Me for?' They reply, 'They are asking You for the Garden.' He says, 'Have they seen it?' They reply, 'No, our Lord.' He says, 'How would it be if they were to see it?' Then He asks – and He knows better than them, 'What are they seeking refuge from?' 'From the Fire,' they reply. He asks, 'Have they seen it?' 'No,' they reply. Then He says, 'How would it be if they were to see it?' Then He says, 'I testify to you that I have forgiven them, I have given them what they ask Me for, and I given them the refuge which they ask of Me.' They say, 'Our Lord, among them is a wrongdoer who is sitting with them, but is not one of them.' He says, 'I have forgiven him as well. The one sitting with these people will not be wretched.'" [u](Muslim, at-Tirmidhi, al-Hakim) [/u] Abu Hurayra reported from Abu Sa'id al-Khudri that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "There are no people who remember Allah without the angels surrounding them, mercy covering them, tranquillity descending on them, and Allah mentioning them to those who are with Him." [u](Muslim, at-Tirmidhi) [/u] Mu'awiya reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, went out to a circle of his Companions and asked, "What is it that has caused you to sit together?" They answered, "We have sat down to remember Allah and praise Him." He said, "Jibril came to me and reported to me that the angels are boasting about you." [u](Muslim, at-Tirmidhi) [/u] Anas reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Allah Almighty has angels who travel about seeking out gatherings of dhikr. When they come to them, they encircle them." [u](Al-Bazzar) [/u] Anas also reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "When you come upon the meadows of the Garden, graze in them." He was asked, "What are the meadows of the Garden?" "Circles of dhikr." he replied. [u][at-Tirmidhi) [/u] The scholar Ibn 'Allan, commentator on al-Adhkar, said that this hadith means, "When you pass by a group remembering Allah, do the dhikr they are doing or listen to their dhikr. They are in the meadows of the Garden now or ultimately. The Almighty says, 'For him who fears the Station of his Lord there are two Gardens.' (55:45)" [al-Futuhat ar-Rabbaniyya 'ala'l-Adhkar an-Nawawiyya] |
| 08/07/03 at 06:33:52 |
| Nawawi |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
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| bhaloo |
| 08/07/03 at 09:54:24 |
| [slm] Here is part of a letter a brother wrote to Hamza Yusuf (that works with Hamza Yusuf at Zayatuna) wrote in regards to "group dhikr". To be on the safe side one should avoid this and take the opinion of Imaam Malik. part of the brother's letter: I often warned you of doing actions that would bring criticism from other people. You ignored me then, but I pray you heed my warnings to you now. Although, there are differences among the scholars about certain sufi practices. You know that the opinion of Imam Malik and the leading proponents of his school of thought have been opposed to doing dhikr in jama`at and in one voice. The Shehu like all the true Maliki scholars considered this practice a reprehensible innovation. The Shehu said in his Ihya’s-Sunna, “There is disagreement regarding the Qur'anic hizb (which is recited in a circle with one voice), doing dhikr in gatherings in a loud voice, and performing supplication in the same manner. There are, however, some Prophetic traditions which incite to that, but there is no mention of the Salaf doing it, nor is there any mention of how it was done. Shafi`i says about that, “It is a sunna.” Malik said about that, "It is a reprehensible innovation because of the existence of ambiguity (shubhat)." Again the Shehu said, “Malik said, ‘It is an innovation because they did not leave it except because of an order for them to do so. They were the most desirous of people for doing good and the most knowledgeable of people concerning the sunna. This is in accordance with the words of Ibn Mas`ud, may Allah be pleased with him, when he said to some people whom he saw doing the remembrance of Allah in a group (jama`at), "By Allah! You all have either come with a dark innovation, or you have superseded the Companions of Muhammad in knowledge?” This is the known opinion of Shaykh Murabit al-Hajj, Shaykh Abdallah and Shaykh Muhammad al-Khatri. The reason that I know this is because I asked the later two about this and they gave me the exact opinion that has been put forward by the leading Malikis from the earliest times up to present. I told you in the past, that if you did not leave doing the dhikr in jama`at and if you continued the assemblies of singing qasa’id in jama`at, that it would bring undeserved criticism from people. In fact, by doing so you remove yourself from under the baraka of Shaykh Murabit al-Hajj. ;============================ 'Amr ibn Salmah said: We used to sit by the door of 'Abdullah ibn Mas'ood before the Morning Prayer, so that when he came out we would walk with him to the mosque. (one day) Abu Moosaa al-Ash'aree came to us and said, "Has Abu 'Abd ar-Rahmaan come out yet?" We replied, "No." So he sat down with us until he came out. When he came out, we all stood along with him, so Abu Moosaa said to him, "O Abu 'Abd ar-Rahmaan! I have just seen something in the mosque which I deemed to be evil, but all praise is for Allaah, I did not see anything except good." He enquired, "Then what is it?" (Abu Moosaa) replied, "If you live you will see it. I saw in the mosque people sitting in circles awaiting the Prayer. In each circle they had pebbles in their hands and a man would say 'repeat Allaahu Akbar a hundred times.' So they would repeat it a hundred times. Then he would say, 'say Laa ilaaha illallaah a hundred times.' So they would say it a hundred times. Then he would say, 'say Subhaanallaah a hundred times.' So they would say it a hundred times." (Ibn Mas'ood) asked, "What did you say to them?" (Abu Moosaa) said, "I did not say anything to them. Instead I waited to hear your view or what you declared." (Ibn Mas'ood) replied, "Would that you had ordered them to count up the evil deeds they acquired and assured them that their good deeds would not be lost!" Then we went along with him (Ibn Mas'ood) until he came to one of these circles and stood and said, "What is this which I see you doing?" They replied, "O Abu 'Abd ar-Rahmaan! These are pebbles upon which we are counting takbeer, tahleel and tasbeeh." He said, "Count up your evil deeds. I assure you that none of your good deeds will be lost. Woe to you, O Ummah of Muhammad (saws)! How quickly you go to destruction! These are the Companions of your Prophet and who are widespread. There are his clothes which have not yet decayed and his bowl which is unbroken. By Him in Whose Hand is my soul! Either you are upon a Religion better guided than the Religion of Muhammad (saws) or that you are opening the door of misguidance." They said, "O Abu 'Abd ar-Rahmaan! By Allaah, we only intended good." He said, "How many there are who intend good but do not achieve it. Indeed Allaah's Messenger said to us 'A people will recite the Qur'aan but it will not pass beyound their throats.' By Allah! I do not know, perhaps most of them are from you." Then he left them. Umar ibn Salmah (the sub-narrator) said: We saw most of those peope fighting against us on the day of Nahrawaan, along with the Khawaarij. With regards to the hadith it is reported by al-Daarimi, al-Sunan, no. 210, ed. by ‘Abd-Allaah Haashim al-Yamaani. Sheikh Al-Albaani (a great scholar of traditional and classical Islam and muhaddith) , classed its isnaad as saheeh in al-Silsilat al-Saheehah under hadeeth no. 2005. See Majma’ al-Zawaa’id by al-Haythami, 1/181 |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
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| BrKhalid |
| 08/07/03 at 10:17:16 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) Just to clear up any confusions here. There is a diiference between group dhikr which involves listening to a Hadith being read for example and dhikr which inloves invocations being made as part of a group. |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
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| Nawawi |
| 08/07/03 at 11:32:44 |
| [quote author=bhaloo link=board=library;num=1060248793;start=0#1 date=08/07/03 at 09:54:24][slm] 'Amr ibn Salmah said: We used to sit by the door of 'Abdullah ibn Mas'ood before the Morning Prayer, so that when he came out we would walk with him to the mosque. (one day) Abu Moosaa al-Ash'aree came to us and said, "Has Abu 'Abd ar-Rahmaan come out yet?" We replied, "No." So he sat down with us until he came out. When he came out, we all stood along with him, so Abu Moosaa said to him, "O Abu 'Abd ar-Rahmaan! I have just seen something in the mosque which I deemed to be evil, but all praise is for Allaah, I did not see anything except good." He enquired, "Then what is it?" (Abu Moosaa) replied, "If you live you will see it. I saw in the mosque people sitting in circles awaiting the Prayer. In each circle they had pebbles in their hands and a man would say 'repeat Allaahu Akbar a hundred times.' So they would repeat it a hundred times. Then he would say, 'say Laa ilaaha illallaah a hundred times.' So they would say it a hundred times. Then he would say, 'say Subhaanallaah a hundred times.' So they would say it a hundred times." (Ibn Mas'ood) asked, "What did you say to them?" (Abu Moosaa) said, "I did not say anything to them. Instead I waited to hear your view or what you declared." (Ibn Mas'ood) replied, "Would that you had ordered them to count up the evil deeds they acquired and assured them that their good deeds would not be lost!" Then we went along with him (Ibn Mas'ood) until he came to one of these circles and stood and said, "What is this which I see you doing?" They replied, "O Abu 'Abd ar-Rahmaan! These are pebbles upon which we are counting takbeer, tahleel and tasbeeh." He said, "Count up your evil deeds. I assure you that none of your good deeds will be lost. Woe to you, O Ummah of Muhammad (saws)! How quickly you go to destruction! These are the Companions of your Prophet and who are widespread. There are his clothes which have not yet decayed and his bowl which is unbroken. By Him in Whose Hand is my soul! Either you are upon a Religion better guided than the Religion of Muhammad (saws) or that you are opening the door of misguidance." They said, "O Abu 'Abd ar-Rahmaan! By Allaah, we only intended good." He said, "How many there are who intend good but do not achieve it. Indeed Allaah's Messenger said to us 'A people will recite the Qur'aan but it will not pass beyound their throats.' By Allah! I do not know, perhaps most of them are from you." Then he left them. Umar ibn Salmah (the sub-narrator) said: We saw most of those peope fighting against us on the day of Nahrawaan, along with the Khawaarij. With regards to the hadith it is reported by al-Daarimi, al-Sunan, no. 210, ed. by ‘Abd-Allaah Haashim al-Yamaani. Sheikh Al-Albaani (a great scholar of traditional and classical Islam and muhaddith) , classed its isnaad as saheeh in al-Silsilat al-Saheehah under hadeeth no. 2005. See Majma’ al-Zawaa’id by al-Haythami, 1/181 [/quote] The chain of the above report contains `Amr ibn Yahya al-Hamadani -- `Amr ibn Salima's grandson -- and he is [u]da`if.[/u] Ibn Ma`in saw him and said: [u]"his narrations are worth nothing"[/u]; Ibn Kharrash said: [u]"he is not accepted"[/u]; Dhahabi listed him among those who are [u]weak[/u] and whose hadith is not retained in al-Du`afa' wa al-matrukin (p. 212 #3229), Mizan al-i`tidal (3:293), and al-Mughni fi al-du`afa' (2:491); and al-Haythami declared him[u] weak (da`if) [/u]in Majma` al-zawa'id, chapter entitled Bab al-`ummal `ala al-sadaqa. there appears to be a difference of opinion on the authenticity of this Athar For me it falls in to the realm of doubtful matters. If the athar is authentic it is a saying of the companions and NOT the saying of the our Noble Prophet [saw]. And I will chose a saying of our Prophet [saw] over the saying of a companion. Ash-hab, a student of Imaam Malik said, "Malik was once asked whether it was safe to follow a ruling related to him by a reliable narrators who had heard it from the companions of the Prophet [saw]. He (Imaam Malik) relied, "No by Allah, not unless it is correct: the truth is only one. Can two opposing opinion be simultaneously correct? The opinion which is correct can only be one." However at the same time, we cannot condemn one for follow an opinion of the companion. As our Messenger [saw] was asked who about who the saved sect was, and one of his replied was, "That which me and my companions were on." Imaam Malik was asked to make the Muwatta the law of the land, and He replied, " ‘Amir al-Mu’minin, as for hanging the Muwatta’ in the Ka’ba, the Companions of the Messenger of Allah disagreed about the branches of knowledge. They dispersed throughout the lands of Islam and each one did what he thought correct." Imaam Malik said the companions differed in matters of usul. Imaam Malik also replied again to the same request by the Amir by saying, “0 Amir al-Mu’minin, the differences of the people of knowledge are a mercy from Allah to this community. Each follows what he considers to be sound, each is rightly guided, and each desires to please Allah.” He says each is rightly guided. How should we deal with the differing opinions? Sufyan at Thawri said, "If you see a man doing something over which there is a debate among the scholars, and you yourself believe it to be forbidden, you should not forbid him from doing it."(al-Dajaw,Imaam, Maqalat wa Fatawa (Cairo:Majmu al Buhuth al Islamiya) 1492, II, and 575) Imaam Nawawi and even Ibn Taymiyyah mentioned something along the similar lines: "Scholars only protest against that which musters unanimous consensus: as for what does not muster unanimous consensus, then there is no permission to protest" (Al Nawawi, Sharah Sahih Muslim, Chapter entiteld: Al Amr bi Al maruf wa al Nahy an al Munkar. This statement is reiterated verbatim by Ibn Taymiyyah in Majmu Al Fatawa al Kubra (Dar Al Marifa edition, 2:33) |
| 08/08/03 at 05:58:22 |
| Nawawi |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
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| Nawawi |
| 08/07/03 at 12:06:36 |
| [quote author=BrKhalid link=board=library;num=1060248793;start=0#2 date=08/07/03 at 10:17:16]Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) Just to clear up any confusions here. There is a diiference between group dhikr which involves listening to a Hadith being read for example and dhikr which inloves invocations being made as part of a group.[/quote] You are correct, there is a difference between the two. However both are permissible. Alot of people think the above hadiths only refer to gathering together to learn the deen. And perhaps they based this off of a saying of one of the salafus saleh, Ata ibn Abi Rabah, (the Mufti of Mecca d 114/732) who is reported to have said, "Seesions of dhikr are the sessions of teaching people the lawful and unlawful, how you buy, sell, pray, fast, wed, divorce, make the pilgrimage and the like (Nawawi: al Majmu, 1:21) Perhaps Ata, intended to inform people that teaching the Shariah is also a form of dhikr because there is an authentic hadith which specifically states that groups of dhikr with invocation is permissible. In Bukhari and Muslim:[u](all the underlined text is not part of the hadith.) [/u]The Prophet [saw]said that Allah has angels roaming the roads to find the people of dhikr, ([u]i.e. those who say La ilaha illallah and similar expressions[/u]), and when they find a group of people (qawm) reciting dhikr, they call each other and encompass them in layers until the first heaven. ([u]This is to say, an unlimited number of angels are going to be over that group. He didn't say: "when they find one person." Therefore it is a must to be in a group to get this particular reward.[/u]) Allah asks His angels, and He knows already ([u]but He asks in order to assure it and make it understandable for us[/u]) "What are my servants saying?" ([u]He did not say "servant," but `ibadi, "servants" in the plural.[/u]) The angels say: "They are praising You (tasbih-Subhan Allah) and magnifying Your Name (takbir-Allahu Akbar) and glorifying You (tahmid-Al Hamdullah), and giving You the best Attributes (tamjid)." ([u]Can you say that all this is a lecture or a study group? Can you say that this is silent? Rather, this is saying "Alhamdulillah" and other kinds of dhikr.[/u]) Allah says: "Have they seen Me?" The angels answer: "O our Lord! They did not see You." He says: "([u]They are praising Me without seeing Me,[/u]) what if they see Me!" The angels answer: "O our Lord, if they saw You, they are going to do more and more worship, more and more tasbih, more and more takbir, more and more tamjid!" He says: "What are they asking?" Angels say: "They are asking Your Paradise!" He says: "Did they see Paradise?" They say: "O our Lord, no, they have not seen it." He says: "And how will they be if they see it?" They say: "If they see Paradise, they are going to be more attached and attracted to it!" He says: "What are they fearing and running away from?" ([u]When we are saying, "Ya Ghaffar (O Forgiver), Ya Sattar (O Concealer)," it means that we are fearing Him because of our sins. We are asking Him to hide our sins and forgive us.[/u]) They say: "They are fearing and running away from hellfire." He says: "And have they seen hellfire?" They say: "O our Lord, no, they did not see hellfire." He says: "And how will they be if they see fire and hell?" They say: "If they see your fire, they are going to be running from it more and more, and be even more afraid of it." ([u]Now listen to this carefully:[/u]) And Allah says: "I am making you witness ([u]and does Allah need witnesses? He needs no witness since He said: "Allah is sufficient as witness" (4:79, 4:166, 10:29, 13:43, 29:52). Why make the angels witnesses? Does Allah change His word? "Making you witness" here means, "Assuring you"[/u]) that I have forgiven them." ([u]Why has Allah forgiven them? Because, as the beginning of the hadith states, they are a group of people reciting the Names of Allah and remembering Him with His dhikr.[/u]) One of the angels says: "O my Lord, someone was there who did not belong to that group, but came for some other need." ([u]That person came for some other purpose than dhikr, to ask someone for something.[/u]) Allah says: "Those are such a group that anyone who sits with them -- no matter for what reason -- that person will also have his sins forgiven."[u]end of hadith[/u] Imam Ahmad Mashhur al-Haddad (d. 1416/1995) said in his book Miftah al-janna. "This hadith indicates what merit lies in gathering for dhikr, and in everyone present doing it aloud and in unison, because of the phrases: "They are invoking You" in the plural, and "They are the people who sit," meaning those who assemble for remembrance and do it in unison, something which can only be done aloud, since someone whose dhikr is silent has no need to seek out a session in someone else's company. This is further indicated by the hadith qudsi which runs: "Allah says: I am to my servant as he expects of Me, I am with him when he remembers Me. If he remembers Me in his heart, I remember him to Myself, and if he remembers me in an assembly, I mention him in an assembly better than his..." (Bukhari and Muslim) Thus, silent dhikr is differentiated fron dhikr said outloud by His saying: "remembers Me within himself," meaning: "silently," and "in an assembly," meaning "aloud." Dhikr in a gathering can only be done aloud and in unison. The above hadith thus constitutes proof that dhikr done outloud in a gathering is an exalted kind of dhikr which is mentioned at the Highest Assembly (al-mala' al-a`la) by our Majestic Lord and the angels who are near to Him, "who extol Him night and day, and never tire" (21:20). The affinity is clearly evident between those who do dhikr in the transcendent world, who have been created with an inherently obedient and remembering nature, namely the angels, and those who do dhikr in the dense world, whose natures contain lassitude and distraction; namely, human beings. The reward of the latter for their dhikr is that they be elevated to a rank similar to that of the Highest Assembly, which is a sufficient honor and favor for anyone." And I have presented to you a hadith which prove dhikr which include invocation in a group is permissible. Not an opinion, but from the Messenger [saw]Himself. Authentic. Sahih. You can follow the Athar by 'Amr ibn Salmah. But a hadith out weighs a saying of the companion by far. |
| 08/07/03 at 12:15:34 |
| Nawawi |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
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| sofia |
| 08/07/03 at 14:03:48 |
| [slm] [quote]You are correct, there is a difference between the two. However both are permissible. [/quote] [quote]Dhikr in a gathering can only be done aloud and in unison. [/quote] Only? There is a rather strong possibility that one can be in a group, make dhikr out loud, and NOT do it in unison. Even when you listen to a Qur'aan class, the teacher rarely allows everyone to recite the same verse in unison (this is just a side comment: my tajweed teacher will listen to multiple students recite different ayaat and correct them all separately, masha'Allah). As mentioned, Imam Maalik detested it quite specifically. And as already acknowledged, the term "dhikr" was used by the Prophet (saw) to mean different things. With all of these factors taken together, I'm just trying to understand how such a strong case can be made for it, when the proof presented isn't even "airtight." Maybe there's more to it. Allahu A'lim, I'm just a student. If there is a difference of opinion amongst our scholars on the permissibility of group dhikr in unison, I'd like to learn more about it, insha'Allah. |
| 08/07/03 at 21:09:29 |
| sofia |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
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| Nawawi |
| 08/07/03 at 17:31:06 |
| [quote author=sofia link=board=library;num=1060248793;start=0#6 date=08/07/03 at 14:03:48] [slm] Only? There is a rather strong possibility that one can be in a group, make dhikr out loud, and NOT do it in unison. [/quote] I think he was referring to the meaning of the hadith and Allah knows best. However if he literally means only, meaning this is the only way you can do dhikr than he is mistaken. But I am sure that is not what he means. Dhikr can be done, alone, in a group alone, or in a group in unison as the above hadith indicates both aloud and silent. I think he was stressing the fact that group dhikr out loud is permissible based on that hadith. [quote] As mentioned, Imam Maalik detested it quite specifically. And as already acknowledged, the term "dhikr" was used by the Prophet (saw) to mean different things. With all of these factors taken together, I'm just trying to understand how such a "stringent" case can be made for it, when the proof presented isn't even "airtight." Maybe there's more to it. Allahu A'lim, I'm just a student. If there is a difference of opinion amongst our scholars on the permissibility of group dhikr in unison, I'd like to learn more about it, insha'Allah. [/quote] There is a difference between the above Imaam, Ahmad Mashhur al-Haddad and Imaam Malik. One big difference is they had a different usul all together. Imam Ahmad Mashhur al-Haddad, followed the usul of Imaam Shafi, while Imam Malik followed his own usul. The difference between Imaam Malik and Imaam Shafi in regards to how they evaulate hadith is different. Imaam Malik takes the specific meaning of all hadith, unless it is proven that hadith is that one should be taken in the general sense. While Imaam Shafi is opposite he takes hadith in the general, unless it is proven that the hadith should be taken general. So this is probably why, you have a different ruling even in the light of all the hadiths. The great Shafi scholar and Imaam, Imaam Jala Al Din Suyuti was for a fawa or a formal legal opinion concerning "a group of Mushineen who gathered for a session of dhikr," and he replied: How can one condemn making dhikr while standing or standing while making dhikr, when Allah Most High says, "...those who invoke Allah standing, sitting and upon their sides"(Quran 3:191)? And Aisha said, "The Prophet [saw] used to invoke Allah at all of his times." {Muslim} I do not think you will find any Shafi scholar who will disagree with the permissiblity of group dhikr outloud in unison. I haven't read any. (you might find a few, but I am pretty sure they are not considered an authority in the madhab. You will find a difference opinion among the Malikis. Half and Half And I think all the Hanbalis disagree with dhikr in a group outloud in unison. Which is why the Saudi scholars are against group dhikr outloud in a group, because their foundation of fiqh is Hanbali. I am not sure of the Hanafi position on the issue. i will try and look to see if I can find all the different opinions. in sha Allah,and why they agree or disagree with group dhikr out loud in unison in sha Allah. And Allah knows best. You can rest assurd in most cases of our deen, there is a difference of opinion. And there is daleel to support each opinion, but the thing is will you agree with how they are using the daleel. It all depends on the usul you agree with, in light of the spirit of the Shariah. |
| 08/10/03 at 22:23:38 |
| Nawawi |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
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| sofia |
| 08/07/03 at 21:07:25 |
| [slm] [quote]And if dancing is added to this standing, it may not be condemned, as it is of the joy of spiritual vision and ecstasty, and the hadith exist [in many sources such as Ahmad with a sound chain} that Jafar ibn Abi Talib danced in front of the Prophet when the Prophet told him, "You resemble me in looks and in character," dancing from happiness he felt from being thus addressed and the Prophet dd not condemn him for doing so, this being a basis for the legal acceptability of the Mushineen dancing from the joys of the ecstasies they experience (Al Hawi Li Fatawai,) [/quote] We can also say that dancing is allowed from the hadith of A'ishah being allowed by the Prophet (S) to watch the Ethiopian dancers on 'Eid. Allahu A'lim, this is not a fatwa, I'm just speculating for the sake of showing how a laymen can come up with his/her own conclusions to certain gray areas. From what I could find, this statement from the Prophet (S) is mentioned in al-Bukhaari & other collections, without the "dancing" part. In some translations in Ahmad, it's said that Ja'far and Zayd (may Allah be pleased with them) "hopped" around in joy from hearing the statements of the Prophet (S). Allahu A'lim, how can "jumping for joy" be likened to dancing? From what I can tell, this is somewhat of a weak basis to allow spinning/dancing around, trying to feel ecstacy, no? Is there more proof for this? I mean, dancing for some other purpose, fine, I won't argue. But dancing as a means of 'ibaadah requires more stringent proof. Allahu A'lim, bro, you lost me with the dancing part. And forgive me if you weren't going in that direction and I made the wrong assumption. I just thought that was a rather large "jump" in conclusion (pardon the pun). :) JazaakAllahu khair for the info. |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
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| Nawawi |
| 08/08/03 at 06:04:54 |
| [quote author=sofia link=board=library;num=1060248793;start=0#8 date=08/07/03 at 21:07:25] [slm] We can also say that dancing is allowed from the hadith of A'ishah being allowed by the Prophet (S) to watch the Ethiopian dancers on 'Eid. Allahu A'lim, this is not a fatwa, I'm just speculating for the sake of showing how a laymen can come up with his/her own conclusions to certain gray areas. From what I could find, this statement from the Prophet (S) is mentioned in al-Bukhaari & other collections, without the "dancing" part. In some translations in Ahmad, it's said that Ja'far and Zayd (may Allah be pleased with them) "hopped" around in joy from hearing the statements of the Prophet (S). Allahu A'lim, how can "jumping for joy" be likened to dancing? From what I can tell, this is somewhat of a weak basis to allow spinning/dancing around, trying to feel ecstacy, no? Is there more proof for this? I mean, dancing for some other purpose, fine, I won't argue. But dancing as a means of 'ibaadah requires more stringent proof. Allahu A'lim, bro, you lost me with the dancing part. And forgive me if you weren't going in that direction and I made the wrong assumption. I just thought that was a rather large "jump" in conclusion (pardon the pun). :) JazaakAllahu khair for the info. [/quote] [slm] Well after re-reading the fatwa by Imaam Suyuti his fatwa wasn’t really what the discussion about but it was related. Our discussion was about whether or not group dhikr out-loud in unison is permissible. Group dhikr out-loud in unison is permissible by all the Shafi scholars and I haven’t found one who disagreed with it And the hadith I presented in the above post is daleel for its permissibility. The only opposing opinions that I’ve read is from Hanbalis. I actually thought the fatwa by Imaam As Suyuti was clear, with enough daleel. I will explain, but I can’t guarantee that you will agree because I don’t know what usul you follow. As Some Maliki Scholars and Some Hanbali scholars don’t agree with the Shafi position on this. So I will just clarify the position. By explaining the fatwa piece by piece. The great Shafi scholar and Imaam, Imaam Jala Al Din Suyuti was for a fawa or a formal legal opinion concerning "a group of Mushineen who gathered for a session of dhikr," and he replied: How can one condemn making dhikr while standing or standing while making dhikr, when Allah Most High says, "...those who invoke Allah standing, sitting and upon their sides"(Quran 3:191)? [color=blue]My comment: [/color] In the Quran it clearly say that one should invoke Allah, standing, sitting and upon their sides. Many of the Mufassireen and Imaam Suyuti is one of the greatest of them, say this means dhikr is permissible at any condition or occasion as long as the condition or occasion is permissible. For example. If one is walking one can make dhikr. If one is riding a bicycle one can make dhikr, if one is standing one can make dhikr. So the principle here is, you can take a recommended act such as Dhikr and join it with a permissible act such as walking, standing and etc. However making dhikr with musical instruments is haraam because musical instruments are haraam. So in any condition or states you are in as long as it is permissible you can make dhikr. And this is the meaning of the Ayat. So Imaam Suyuti is like how can you condemn such an act in light of the above ayat. So Imaam Suyuti provides a daleel from the Sunnah to prove that verse means that dhikr is permissible at every states or condition. So He present the hadith. And Aisha said, "The Prophet [saw] used to invoke Allah at all of his times."{Muslim} [color=blue]My comment: [/color] So this hadith indicates the Prophet was in a state of dhikr at all occasions, thus proving dhikr is permissible at any occasion. Imaam Suyuti continues, and the hadith exist [in many sources such as Ahmad with a sound chain} that Jafar ibn Abi Talib danced in front of the Prophet when the Prophet told him, "You resemble me in looks and in character," dancing from happiness he felt from being thus addressed and the Prophet did not condemn him for doing so, My comment: So he provided this daleel for dancing. The reason why some scholars consider this a daleel for dancing is because the act that was described in the hadith could be used to describe dancing, and also the hadith you presented We can also say that dancing is allowed from the hadith of A'ishah being allowed by the Prophet (S) to watch the Ethiopian dancers on 'Eid. Don’t worry this daleel is used by the Shafi scholars to prove that dancing is permissible. (Imaam Nawawi says, It is not prohibited to dance, Imaam Muhammad Shirbini Khatib comments, which is not unlawful because it is only motions made while standing or bowing. Furani and others have expressly stated that neither is it offensive, but rather is permissible, as is attested to by the hadith related in the sahihs of Bukhhari and Muslim that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) stood before `Ai'isha (Allah be well pleased with her) to screen her from view so that she could observe the Abyssinians sporting and dancing)- Imaam Nawawi continues: unless it is languid, like the movements of the effeminate (Mughni al-muhtaj ila ma`rifa ma`ani alfaz al Minhaj (y73), 4.430). |
| 08/10/03 at 22:21:36 |
| Nawawi |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
|---|
| bhaloo |
| 08/08/03 at 08:18:29 |
| [slm] Jazak Allah kahiren Br. Khalid and sister Sofia. from Nawawi [quote] The only opposing opinions that I’ve read is from Hanbalis [/quote] The leading Maliki scholars (this isn't something that is "half and half") oppose it and even Imaam Malik has called it a reprehensible innovation. The thing I find interesting is that in order to refute Imaam Malik's view (and for that matter, the leading Maliki scholars) you try and mention a hadith (while just a few weeks ago you were going on about following a school of thought, now it appears you reject all these 1400 years of scholarship, this is a double standard on your part). [quote] I do not think you will find any Shafi scholar who will disagree with the permissiblity of group dhikr outloud in unison. I haven't read any. (you might find a few, but I am pretty sure they are not considered an authority in the madhab. [/quote] The fact is you don't know and you should keep silent in such matters instead of speculating and trying to make something up. Speak within your means and if you don't know keep silent. Much of the information (perhaps all?) your provided came from someone who I've dealt with personally in the past and is involved with Hisham Kabbani's organization. I wouldn't take information from him as many things he's fabricated. Tafsir of Ibn Kathir Interpretation of meaning: Quran 7:205 And remember your Lord within yourself, humbly and with fear and without loudness in words i n the mornings and in the afternoons, and be not of those who are neglectful. ;============================ Allah ordains that He be remembered more often in the mornings and the afternoons. Just as He ordered that He be worshipped during these two times when He said, [æóÓóÈøöÍú ÈöÍóãúÏö ÑóÈøößó ÞóÈúáó ØõáõæÚö ÇáÔøóãúÓö æóÞóÈúáó ÇáúÛõÑõæÈö] (And glorify the praises of your Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting.) [50:39] Before the night of Isra', when the five daily prayers were ordained, this Ayah was revealed in Makkah ordering that Allah be worshipped at these times, Allah said next, [ÊóÖóÑøõÚðÇ æóÎöíÝóÉð] (humbly and with fear) meaning, remember your Lord in secret, not loudly, with eagerness and fear. This is why Allah said next, [æóÏõæäó ÇáúÌóåúÑö ãöäó ÇáúÞóæúáö] (and without loudness in words). Therefore, it is recommended that remembering Allah in Dhikr is not performed in a loud voice. When the Companions asked the Messenger of Allah, "Is our Lord close, so that we call Him in secret, or far, so that we raise our voices'' Allah sent down the verse, [æóÅöÐóÇ ÓóÃóáóßó ÚöÈóÇÏöí Úóäøöí ÝóÅöäøöí ÞóÑöíÈñ ÃõÌöíÈõ ÏóÚúæóÉó ÇáÏøóÇÚö ÅöÐóÇ ÏóÚóÇäö] h(And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then (answer them), I am indeed near (to them by My knowledge). I respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me (without any mediator or intercessor).) [2:186] In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari said, "The people raised their voices with Du`a' (invoking Allah) while travelling. The Prophet said to them, «íóÇ ÃóíøõåóÇ ÇáäøóÇÓõ ÇÑúÈóÚõæÇ Úóáóì ÃóäúÝõÓößõãú¡ ÝóÅöäøóßõãú áóÇ ÊóÏúÚõæäó ÃóÕóãøó æóáóÇ ÛóÇÆöÈðÇ Åöäøó ÇáøóÐöí ÊóÏúÚõæäóåõ ÓóãöíÚñ ÞóÑöíÈñ ÃóÞúÑóÈõ Åöáóì ÃóÍóÏößõãú ãöäú ÚõäõÞö ÑóÇÍöáöÊå» (O people! Take it easy on yourselves, for He Whom you are calling is not deaf or absent. Verily, He Whom you are calling is the All-Hearer, close (by His knowledge), closer to one of you than the neck of his animal.)'' (Sahih Muslim 4:2077 and Fath Al-Bari 6:157) These texts encourage the servants to invoke Allah in Dhikr often, especially in the mornings and afternoons, so that they are not among those who neglect remembering Him. This is why Allah praised the angels who praise Him night and day without tiring, [Åöäøó ÇáøóÐöíäó ÚöäÏó ÑóÈøößó áÇó íóÓúÊóßúÈöÑõæäó Úóäú ÚöÈóÇÏóÊöåö] (Surely, those who are with your Lord (i.e., angels) are never too proud to perform acts of worship to Him) Allah reminded the servants of this fact so that they imitate the angels in their tireless worship and obedience of Allah. Prostration, here, upon the mention that the angels prostrate to Allah is legitimate. A Hadith reads; «ÃóáóÇ ÊóÕõÝøõæäó ßóãóÇ ÊóÕõÝøõ ÇáúãóáóÇÆößóÉõ ÚöäúÏó ÑóÈøöåóÇ íõÊöãøõæäó ÇáÕøõÝõæÝó ÇáúÃõæóáó ÝóÇáúÃõæóáó æóíóÊóÑóÇÕøõæäó Ýöí ÇáÕøóÝ» (Why not you stand in line (for the prayer) like the angels stand in line before their Lord They continue the first then the next lines and they stand close to each other in line. ) This is the first place in the Qur'an where it has been legitimized -- according to the agreement of the scholars -- for the readers of the Qur'an, and those listening to its recitation, to perform prostration. |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
|---|
| sofia |
| 08/08/03 at 09:44:03 |
| [slm] I guess my whole point in posting was to show that we are not qualified to talk about "gray area" issues. In fact, we are strongly suggested to stay away from "gray area" issues. The more one tries to pursue these issues, the more one tends to "stretch" and "twist," and can very easily fall into the unlawful. Very few are qualified to use usooli knowledge of fiqh in the correct manner, unfortunately (and our scholars had a lot more in common than we give them credit for). A local Imam once mentioned something to the effect of: isn't it interesting that every year, there are talks trying to justify celebrating [X] holiday, as though something halaal needs that much "justification"? In other words, our deen is not one based on "gray area" issues that need to be defended every year; we have much greater responsibilities first (the faraa'id, at the very least) that we need to focus on, rather than increasing the divide that exists when we talk about "gray area" issues, especially considering the current state of this ummah. Disunity is one of our weaknesses, and one that others have picked up on. May Allah unify our ummah, forgive and have mercy on us, aameen. Also, please forgive me if I offended anyone. Jazaakum Allahu khair. This was an interesting topic and I appreciate the research gone into it, but I think we're going into somewhat risky territory. |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
|---|
| Nawawi |
| 08/08/03 at 12:42:58 |
| [quote author=bhaloo link=board=library;num=1060248793;start=0#10 date=08/08/03 at 08:18:29][slm] Jazak Allah kahiren Br. Khalid and sister Sofia. from Nawawi The leading Maliki scholars (this isn't something that is "half and half") oppose it and even Imaam Malik has called it a reprehensible innovation. The thing I find interesting is that in order to refute Imaam Malik's view (and for that matter, the leading Maliki scholars) you try and mention a hadith (while just a few weeks ago you were going on about following a school of thought, now it appears you reject all these 1400 years of scholarship, this is a double standard on your part). The fact is you don't know and you should keep silent in such matters instead of speculating and trying to make something up. Speak within your means and if you don't know keep silent. .[/quote] Well first of all I don't know where the letter came from. I am telling you what a Shaikh told me. I was not refuting Imaam Malik's position. In fact I was explaining the Shafi position. Even in the letter it said, Shafi considered it sunnah. The Letter said, [quote] Shafi`i says about that, “It is a sunna.” Malik said about that, "It is a reprehensible innovation because of the existence of ambiguity (shubhat)."[/quote] So how am I rejecting 1400 years of scholarship. According to your letter Imaam Shafi and Imaam Malik disagreed about it. One considered it a Sunna and one considered it a bidah. This is not uncommon to find among the early scholars. Imaam Shafi conisder ihtishan a bidah, while the other three Imaams practiced it. There is a difference of opinion on the issue. I am Shafi in fiqh. I was explaining the Shafi position. And you don't know where I got my information from. Brother Bhaloo, what is your beef with me? I've used nothing but Quran and Sunnah to back what I say. And I get critizied for that. Ok what have I used that is not back up by Quran and Sunnah? LOUD DHIKR IN UNISON> I provided an Authentic hadith. Dhikr circles with invocation> I provided the same authentic hadith for. I even provided a scholar's opinion on it. Even Imaam Shafi consider it Sunnah (according to the letter you provided). So what am I getting Criticized for? Criticize the hadith, Criticize the scholar, Criticize Imaam Shafi. I am just presenting you the information. The verse you present Quran 7:205 And remember your Lord within yourself, humbly and with fear and without loudness in words in the mornings and in the afternoons, and be not of those who are neglectful. There is a hadith which promote loud dhikr and there is a hadith with promote silent dhikr. I see daleel for both positions. So both loud dhikr and silent dhikr is permissible. I am Shafi, so I will follow the Shafi position on this. And I don’t knock the Maliki for following the Malikis. In fact a lot of my friends are Malikis, and I am also studying Maliki fiqh now. It is indeed a beautiful madhab with a beautiful usul. If you like we can discuss the Maliki madhab if you like. You seem to be such an expert in the madhab there is probably much I can learn from you. [quote] Much of the information (perhaps all?) your provided came from someone who I've dealt with personally in the past and is involved with Hisham Kabbani's organization. I wouldn't take information from him as many things he's fabricated. [/quote] Perhaps all? LOL. You're a jokester. You assume too much. And just to clarify I am not involved with Hisham Kabbani’s organization. Well, I did go to his website and quoted, part of a post. It was easy to cut and paste it, then to write it all out. I do have the book by Imam Ahmad Mashhur al-Haddad, Keys to the Garden. I cut and pasted that, and I cut and pasted the athar in question. This is the only thing I took from him. All the other material I did not cut and paste from his website, nor are they from any of his books. So it was not most and it wasn't even close to all. And you should adhere to your own advice, You (Bhaloo) said, [quote]The fact is you don't know and you should keep silent in such matters instead of speculating and trying to make something up. Speak within your means and if you don't know keep silent. [/quote] [u]Don't assume anything about me. Show me the same respect you expect of me. It appears that you have double standards as well.[/u] And what I've posted is what I've heard from a Shaikh or read in a book. So in sha Allah I am staying within my means. And we have to question all our sources, whether it is from Hisham Kabbani, or Al Albani or Ibn Uthaymeen, or anybody for that matter. Everybody is capable of making mistakes. And yes I’ve seen positions that all the above have taken that I consider weak in one form or another and I’ve seen position that all the above have taken which I consider strong. I am a researcher, I read from all sources, I don’t limit myself to one source of knowledge. I read books from the traditional Muslim , and I also read books from Saudi scholars, like Bin Baaz, Ibn Uthaymeen. I sit in circles in which knowledge from the Saudi scholars is taught, I sit in circles in where traditional Islam is taught. In a Saudi book, entitled Muslim Unity in the Light of Numerous Groups and Parties, by Ali ibn Hasan, it says, The reliable Imaam Ayyob as Sakhtiyaanee said, "If you wish to know the mistakes of your teacher, then sit with other than him." Ali Ibn Hasan continues in the book, "So the people of partisanship forbid their followers from sitting with anyone who is not with them, or is not a helper of theirs.' Study everything and never be close minded. Instead of condemning a position, seek to understand why they follow that position even though you may disagree. |
| 08/08/03 at 12:45:18 |
| Nawawi |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
|---|
| Nawawi |
| 08/08/03 at 12:50:58 |
| [quote author=sofia link=board=library;num=1060248793;start=0#11 date=08/08/03 at 09:44:03] [slm] I guess my whole point in posting was to show that we are not qualified to talk about "gray area" issues. In fact, we are strongly suggested to stay away from "gray area" issues. The more one tries to pursue these issues, the more one tends to "stretch" and "twist," and can very easily fall into the unlawful. Very few are qualified to use usooli knowledge of fiqh in the correct manner, unfortunately (and our scholars had a lot more in common than we give them credit for). A local Imam once mentioned something to the effect of: isn't it interesting that every year, there are talks trying to justify celebrating [X] holiday, as though something halaal needs that much "justification"? In other words, our deen is not one based on "gray area" issues that need to be defended every year; we have much greater responsibilities first (the faraa'id, at the very least) that we need to focus on, rather than increasing the divide that exists when we talk about "gray area" issues, especially considering the current state of this ummah. Disunity is one of our weaknesses, and one that others have picked up on. May Allah unify our ummah, forgive and have mercy on us, aameen. Also, please forgive me if I offended anyone. Jazaakum Allahu khair. This was an interesting topic and I appreciate the research gone into it, but I think we're going into somewhat risky territory. [/quote] [slm] I don't think it is a grey issue. The issue is black and white, depending on what scholar you agree with and what you are willing to accept as daleel. There is daleel for both position.And the daleel is clear. What is grey about daleel. Both positons are very clear. How can it be grey when daleel is present? Perhaps it is grey for you in deciding which position is the strongest. However This is how we should deal with things when daleel is present for both positions. Hadith from the Prophet in Bukhari. Narrated Ibn Umar: On the day of Al-Ahzab (i.e. Clans) the Prophet said, "None of you Muslims) should offer the 'Asr prayer but at Banu Quraiza's place." The 'Asr prayer became due for some of them on the way. Some of those said, "We will not offer it till we reach it, the place of Banu Quraiza," while some others said, "No, we will pray at this spot, for the Prophet did not mean that for us." Later on It was mentioned to the Prophet and he did not berate any of the two groups. And Allah knows best. |
| 08/08/03 at 13:01:26 |
| Nawawi |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
|---|
| sofia |
| 08/08/03 at 16:14:33 |
| [slm] What I meant by "gray issues," was not only that which is not clear, but also that which our scholars have not come to a consensus/ijmaa' on. Allahu A'lim. I normally don't like to post too many ahaadith, but here's the one I was referring to in my previous post. Narrated An-Nu'man bin Bashir: [i]"I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'Both legal and illegal things are evident but in between them there are doubtful (suspicious) things and most of the people have no knowledge about them. So whoever saves himself from these suspicious things saves his religion and his honor. And whoever indulges in these suspicious things is like a shepherd who grazes (his animals) near the Hima (private pasture) of someone else and at any moment he is liable to get in it. (O people!) Beware! Every king has a Hima and the Hima of Allah on the earth is His illegal (forbidden) things. Beware! There is a piece of flesh in the body if it becomes good (reformed) the whole body becomes good but if it gets spoilt the whole body gets spoilt and that is the heart.'"[/i] [Saheeh Bukhaari] Allahu A'lim. [color=green]"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination."[/color] (Translation of the Qur'aan 4:59) |
| 08/08/03 at 16:16:28 |
| sofia |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
|---|
| Nawawi |
| 08/08/03 at 17:47:07 |
| [quote author=sofia link=board=library;num=1060248793;start=0#14 date=08/08/03 at 16:14:33] [slm] What I meant by "gray issues," was not only that which is not clear, but also that which our scholars have not come to a consensus/ijmaa' on. Allahu A'lim. [/quote] [slm] There is even a difference of opinion on the meaning of grey issues. ;D So even the meaning of grey issue is in itself a grey issue. (if we follow the definition you follow.) According to a report, Abdullah ibn Ahmad quoted that Imaam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal said, "It is no more than a lie for any man to claim the existence of ijmaa. Whoever claims ijmaa is telling a lie." (Amidi, Ihkam,I, 198; Shawkani, Irshad, p. 73.) So there is no ijmaa if this report is true and everything is grey issue. SO let us stay away from everything. :'( :'( :'( :'( EVERYTHING IS A GREY ISSUE. EVERYTHING IS A DOUBTFUL MATTER. It is from my understanding that what Imaam Ahmad meant by that is there is no ijmaa outside of the ijmaa of the companions. Imaam Shafi felt there is only ijmaa in that which is obligatory. Imaam Malik felt ijma was the ijma of the people of Medinah. The meaning of Ijmaa is in itself a grey issue. And Allah knows best. |
| 08/08/03 at 17:59:33 |
| Nawawi |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
|---|
| bhaloo |
| 08/08/03 at 21:19:26 |
| [slm] Alhumdullilah a knowledgable brother replied to this thread, here's what he said (Sheikh Ibn Hajar's opinion is even included with REFERENCE. ) The brother's response: The reply to this shubhah can be very long for he (Hadaad i have followed his articles over the years and they are very dangerous) has mentioned many hadeeth and ayaat that is better to be dealt with on an individual basis. However, what i can say is this instance indicates the importance of not simply understanding the quraan but the upon the way of the salafu-saalih did for this [person] mentioned all these ayaat and ahaadeeth about the dhikr of Allaah - what is a person to do? First of all i say as i remember shaykh Al-Baanee said regarding this hadeeth that the hour will not be established until there is no one on the face of the earth that says Allaah, does mean as these [people] do and this [person] is recommending, that this is an encouragement for one to keep repeating His name the most high without meaning until the hour arrives but rather it means eemaan in Allaah will cease to exist for what benefit it is to say Allaah name without complete tawheed in Him. The mushrikoon used to say Allaah many times, they used to swear by Him, make vows and so forth, but this did not save them once they refused to believe in His tawheed and His messenger. As At-Tirmidhee narrated under the chapter heading of: The disappearance of Knowledge Narrated by Abu Darda: One time we were in the company of the Messenger (sallaallahu alay wasalam) and he raisesd his head to the sky and said: This in this time the knowledge would be removed from the people until they cannot obtain nothing from it. Then Zayd ibn Labeeb Al-Ansaaree said: How could the knowledge be removed from us when we read the Quraan and our wives read the Quraan and our children will read the Quraan. He said: May your mother loose you. I used to consider you from the fuqaha of ahlul-madeenah. Here is the Torah and the Bible with the Jews and the Christians - what has it benefitted them? So think about it if the Messenger (sallaallahu alay wasalam) said this about a people who read the Quraan which is something that is very highly recommened to do what about those who innovate by just saying Allaah, how would they fear. Rather i see them as part of the signs that the Messenger (sallaallahu alay wasalam) mentioned coming to the last day which is the same thing they claim to try and avoid or slow down. As for the scholars statement reagrding this innovation Ash-Shaatibee said, "The Messenger (sallaallahu alay wasalam) never used to say any dhikr aloud nor did did he let the people hear him except when he was teaching them. For if he used to do it on a constant basis and in an audible manner it would be sunnah and it would not be permissible for the scholars to refer to it other than that. If one says: the dua of the Messenger (sallaallahu alay wasalam) was silent so why don't we take that example from him? We say that: the private actions of the Messenger (sallaallahu alay wasalam) must be made public in some instances: either to show that it is has the ruling of a custom (not sunnah) or to show that it is something that is legislated." (Al-I'tisaam: 80) As in the hadeeth of ibn Abbaas in Saheeh Al-Bukhaaree: "Indeed raising the voices in dhikr after the people had finished the prayers was something done during the life of the Messenger (sallaallahu alay wasalam)." An-Nawawee (who Hadaad and other people affiliated with this group of people claims to follow) said regarding this hadeeth, "Ash-Shafi'ee understood the hadeeth to mean that for a period of time they would say the dhikr aloud to show the greatness of dhikr, not that they used to always say it in an audible manner. And the choosen opinion is that the imaam and the m'amoon should say their dhikr silent except when teaching others." (Fathul-Baaree: 2/326. And this is also the apparent opinion of ibn Hajar for he mentioned this opinion without objecting to it.) Ibn Al-Qayyim said, "As for dua after the salaah, facing the qiblah or the ma'moon, it was never part of his prophetic guidance (sallaallahu alay wasalam); nor has not been narrated by a hadeeth that is saheeh even hasan." (Zaadal-me'aad: 1/66) Hence the author of As-sunan wal-mubtadaat said, "Making istighfaar as a group in unisons after the tasleem is a bidah." (As-sunan wal-mubtadaat: 80) In conclusion i would say leave these people alone for all they do is make people doubt about their deen for they always leave what is clear to go to what it ambigious. I myself pay no attention to them for they have matters far greater than this innovation. As they salaf used to advise: Stick to the narrations and leave the opinions of people. |
| 08/09/03 at 02:36:32 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
|---|
| momineqbal |
| 08/09/03 at 01:40:59 |
| [slm], This thread should not be in this area of the board. I expect to see inspirational articles/quotes etc. which can help me increase my taqwaa and this thread hardly even attempts to do that. |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
|---|
| jannah |
| 08/09/03 at 04:20:05 |
| [wlm] bro momineqbal.. shahada bookstore is the place for inspirational quotes.. but yes this is the place for the cool islamic articles and all as for this thread.. i kinda thought they'd fizzle themselves out in the end.. but maybe they need some help... is there really a need for us to debate this fiqh topic here? i think this would go under 'scholarly difference of opinion'..... [quote] This thread should not be in this area of the board. I expect to see inspirational articles/quotes etc. which can help me increase my taqwaa and this thread hardly even attempts to do that. [/quote] |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
|---|
| Nawawi |
| 08/09/03 at 07:54:22 |
| [slm] To clarify: When you asked me for Ibn Hajar opinion on group dhikr in the Sharh Sunnah thread, that is a different Ibn Hajar then the one you are mentioning in the above post. The Ibn Hajar in the Sharh Sunnah thread is Shaykh Ul Islam Ibn Hajar Al Haytami. Who is considered the foremost authority in the Shafi Madhab. The Ibn hajar you mentioned above, is Imaam Ibn Hajar Asqalani. He is the one who wrote the famous Sharh of Bukhari, Fathul-Baaree. In regards to what Imaam Nawawi has written: He is not saying group dhikr is haraam nor is he saying makroh. He is not condemning group dhikr at all. He just say that the chosen opinion is to be silent in the dhikr. Which could mean many things. 1. Silent Dhikr is the chosen opinion, meaning that loud dhikr is condemned. (as you are trying to promote) 2. Silent Dhikr is the chosen opinion, meaning that Silent dhikr is better than loud dhikr. 3. Silent Dhikr is the chose opinion, meaning that Silent dhikr is strongest opinion. You would have to study Imaam Nawawi terminology to understand what he meant by that. It is not an uncommon thing to find a wording from one of the Imaam's in which that Imaam many have a certain connotation to it. Like for example, Imaam Malik would say such and such is disliked. However he didn't always mean that it was makroh(meaning one gets a reward for staying away from it) as most people understand it, however what he meant by it, is that such and such thing was not wajib. So I will have to ask a Shaikh who has studied Imaam Nawawi's work to find out what He meant by that. So Imaam Nawawi did not condemn it specifically in his words. And also there is no reference to where Imaam Nawawi spoke on this issue. I am assuming it is in the Sharh of Muslim. Haddad is also mentioned in this post. The Haddad mentioned in the Bhaloo’s post is NOT the same Haddad I mentioned earlier, Shaykh Ahmad Mashhur al-Haddad who is a Great Shafi scholar from Yemen, who is a man of taqwa, and said [u]that loud dhikr in unison outloud is permissible based on the authentic hadith previously mentioned.[/u] I believe the Haddad that Bhaloo referenced to in his post is GF Haddad, who writes many articles on various subjects concerning Islam on the Internet. GF Haddad is not a scholar, while Shaykh Ahmad Mashhur al-Haddad is scholar. I just wanted to clarify that. And I will take the advice that Bhaloo mentioned in the post, [quote author=bhaloo link=board=library;num=1060248793;start=15#15 date=08/08/03 at 21:19:26][slm] As they salaf used to advise: Stick to the narrations and leave the opinions of people. [/quote] There is narration from our Prophet [saw] which specifically say, loud dhikr in unison is permissible. So I will stick to this and leave the opinions of people. And Allah knows best. |
| 08/09/03 at 21:30:37 |
| Nawawi |
| Re: Group Dhikr |
|---|
| tawbah |
| 08/10/03 at 19:13:51 |
| From the letter that bro Bhalloo posted, it seems like the Malikis from Mauritania are very strict on this issue and do not condone it. But Hamza Yusuf also has links to the scholars in Syria, Yemen etc…where this kind of thing is approved, if not encouraged. A couple of weeks ago, I attended an “evening of celebration” which concluded a weekend intensive on “Lessons from the Prophetic Wisdom”, a series of darses by Imam Zaid Shakir from a text by Jalauddin al-Suyuti. On the Sunday evening...they had an hour of nasheeds (Syrian, Turkish and Pakistani style) together with loud dhikr and group duah … all in the spirit of reflection, meditation and celebration. It may have been intentionally planned for the festive “mawlid season”…I don’t now but the point is that it wasn’t a fanatical group dhikr thing where people started jumping or dancing…or believed that the Prophet (saw) had actually entered the gathering, although some ignorant people do engage in this stuff (like the Kabbanis)…the way it’s done by the traditionalists we are speaking of is harmless in my view. I personally don’t understand what is wrong with culturally enriching Islam, especially in this society where “cultural expressions” are by and large profane. Like I don’t get it when people here can’t decide if a music video by a Muslim hip hop group is a good thing or bad thing…yet singing the praises of Allah and His Messenger is clearly a suspect thing. There may be no direct and explicit proof in the Quran and Sunnah for group dhikr but one thing I understand about the more spiritually creative manifestations of “traditional Islam” is that they believe in imagination, unveiling, spiritual intuition, wisdom etc. which is still grounded by the spirit of the Shariah, but a little bit more expansive in allowing things which promote good…instead of rigidly sticking to direct textual evidence…now this is in regards to the Mubah….the permissible things…and not concerning the foundational teachings like the Faraid. |
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