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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Wife abuse/ need bro's opinion |
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| Caraj |
| 08/10/03 at 01:02:58 |
| Bro's I am asking your opinion as it is a male I need to deal with. One of my sons is verbally abusive toward his wife. (She has told me he hit her only once >:( It's ashame I wasn't there >:( ) He is publically abusive to her and his father (my ex husband), my mother and myself have talked to him about this. It has been so unpleasant at times we sometimes don't invite him cause we do not want to be subjected to it. We want him with us all the time in our hearts but it gets old to hear him be mean and rude to his wife. I explained to him how this makes a woman feel inside to be hurt and put down. I am always careful how and when I approach this. Like one time when she was out of town and I went there to have dinner with him, I asked careful, 'May I speak to you about something that makes me very concerned?' He said yes, he listened, explain some thing to me in return, things that angered him. I told him that was not excuse and he would destroy her self worth and their marriage if he kept it up. I have seen this poor girls smile turn into deep hurt in her eyes when he does this in front of us. When she got a little heavy he was cruel about it and in public, she lost weight. Then when she wanted to stay home, he put her down about not working and being lazy (there are no children in this marriage yet) Then when she got a job, he put her down cause she would not try to go to school and better herslf, said she had no initative and settled for a 7 or 8 dollar and hour job. He has a good job and is a good provider, he just thinks she should work so they can get things and get a head faster. One day I said something he said, 'It's non of your business' I loudly said IF ABUSING YOUR WIFE is NOT my business then maybe you should abuse her in private, If YOU do it in front of me, YOU make it my business >:( NOW KNOCK IT OFF >:( I didn't mean he should at all even in private, I was trying to sharply get my point across. I think my husband many times would of liked to slam dunk him, but doesn't cause 1) two wrongs do not make a right and 2) He is the step dad and the step son is a grown man. You brothers being grown men, what advice can you offer me. To be honest he does it to me also, but I tell him to knock it off once and then I just walk away. I won't put up with it. My other son does not do such things. Would like advice how to handle this as it continues, Sisters, jump right in also, my daughter-in-law and I have a wonderful relationship and she talks to me. I don't want her to stir her wrong, but to be honest I tell her she shouldn't put up with it. But what can she do short of leaving him, I pray that would not happen. I love my son, but I also love my daughter very much. I'm so tired of this whole situation. Thank you for your suggestions. |
| 08/10/03 at 01:08:34 |
| Caraj |
| Re: Wife abuse/ need bro's opinion |
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| faisalsb |
| 08/10/03 at 01:59:30 |
| [slm] Well Sister Aziza I don't want you to depress more by my words particularly when I can feel you didn't post it only to get neseeha but to vent out also. Still I think responsibility might lie with you for wrong behavior of your son. He might be vomiting what he has been fed all of his life. It happens usually in result of broken marriages or where children witness domestic violence. I don't want to judge you or get in details of your personal life but it might be helpfull if you look back and try to reach to root causes of the problem. I think once a man came to Umar (rau) and complained that his son is not dutifull to him and don't listen to him. Next day Umar (rau) called both son and father togather and Umar (rau) told the son that his father has right over him then why don't you obey your father? The son replied do I have any right on my father also? Umar (rau) said offcourse you have three rights on your father: 1) He must find a pious mother for you 2) He must feed you with halal resource 3) He must get you good education and brought up I don't think if any parents are fullfilling upper mentioned duties their children can be astray. There might be few exceptions but generally this is what we witness in life good brings good only. Sister Aziza I think solution to your problem is that someone has to fill the gap which is left in personality of your son due to any reason. I think his wife is the best person to do that since you have already played your role. But certainly it's a tough job I don't know if that poor lady can survive all that what is required. He needs someone who can love him unconditionally and without being judgemental. I know it's very tedious and tiring job but I don't think there is any other way out. I think once you have tried the same thing on your daughter in law and as we know it did work. This time let your daughter in law try on your son I hope it will work again .... Inshallah |
| Re: Wife abuse/ need bro's opinion |
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| Caraj |
| 08/10/03 at 02:11:37 |
| No, not venting, truthfully wanted a males opinion on how to handle it. This was not anything that happened in the last day or two, it is something I have been thinking about. They have been married almosy 4 yrs is an on going thing. I'm not sure how to handle it when it is going on while I am present. I don't wish to remain silent as if I accept it, yet he is a grown man and doesn't need to be scolded as like a child. There comes a time when we all must stop blaming our mothers or fathers and as an adult take responsability for our own short comings. I truly wanted opinions on how to handle this when he is doing this in front of me. |
| 08/10/03 at 02:33:55 |
| Caraj |
| Re: Wife abuse/ need bro's opinion |
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| faisalsb |
| 08/10/03 at 02:42:37 |
| [slm] Well Sister if you are asking about what are you or your daughter in law is supposed to do according to books or law. Then she has right to go to police and file complaint against her husband since he is adult and responsible for his actions. I don't think it's MAN or WOMAN problem it's simply a family problem. Easy solution to the problem is that your daughter in law file divorce case based on the abusive behavior of your son since they don't have children, so it won't be a big loss. Where ever your position in the conflict is concerned I doubt you can play any positive role in the solution. Because if a person doesn't respect his/her mother then there is extremely something wrong with him/her. I think the person who doesn't respect his mother doesn't deserve to be called human. Following is another example of such a problem: http://www.jamaat.org/qa/wabuse.html Bissmillah-hir-Rahman-ir- Rahim Why is it, that while I was being physically and verbally abused by my husband (who prays and fasts and by the way he is an Arab and I am an American convert). I received the pitty of my Islamic community and even some advised me to call the police on him; and after I got tired of asking for help from my community, after I called the police on him, and he was taken away, why is it that after he came back home, everyone of the brothers turned their backs at me and teamed up with my husband and encourage him not to spend any time with me or the children and accuse me of being a bad wife because I got help from the police? Why is it that none seems to care, for the fact that my husband has even cheated on me with another woman and even taking her to night clubs? I love Islam, but often, it seems very difficult for me to remember that Muslims are not a perfect example of Islam. Angelica Barakat USA Dear sister Angelica Barakats, As salamualaikum Wa Rehmatullah Unfortunately Muslims do not reflect ideal behaviour as ordained by Islam. Physical and verbal abuse is also very common in deteriorated societies. Cultural norms and traditions take precedence over Islamic injunctions. Some of the societies consider being sent to the police station as insulting and humiliating and a severe sin in comparison to physical and verbal abuse. As a new Muslim, who accepted Islam by choice you face greater challenges of patience and Dawah. May Allah bless you with all the noble teachings of Islam and save you from the so called Muslim traditions. We can imagine how difficult it is for you to face your current crisis, but, constant study of Quran and Sunnah and five times prayers and supplication shall give you enough courage and wisdom for sure. Sincerely, Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan. |
| Re: Wife abuse/ need bro's opinion |
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| Caraj |
| 08/10/03 at 13:20:37 |
| Thank you both for your replies, I do feel a little funny but I do respect your input, I came here cause I knew I would get an HONEST opinion. Two quick things, 1) You know there was a father involved in this childs life (No I was not a perfect mother but his father did play a role in this, talking to me disrespectfully when he was young) 2) I must of done something right, the other son doesn't do this at all to his wife. 3) I know where this comes from, (believe me I know all to well) my question was, advice on: what do I do or say (or not do or say) when he does this in my presence? Not that he listens to me anyway ::) Yes although we are a product of our parents, after we grow up and know wrong from right we are responsable for our own actions, there comes a point where we need to stop blaming our parents for our sins and short comings. And his wife? We have talked about such things she does not believe in divorce. As to going to the police, well, the one hit was years ago and you can't go to the police for verbal abuse. Actually that one time, both of them talked to me about it. Won't go into details but he has vowed no matter how justified he felt, NO WOMAN is worth a police record, he vowed never to do it again and he has not. |
| 08/10/03 at 13:24:56 |
| Caraj |
| Re: Wife abuse/ need bro's opinion |
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| Anonymous |
| 08/10/03 at 13:27:29 |
| Is there someone your sons looks forward to as in respect? Its easiest to make him understand with that person. You are right sister, a wrong is a worng and man should never raise his hand against his wife. Except in self defence, which is a different case altogether. :-D I remember my grandpa slapped my cousing who was illtreating his than wofe with divorce citing mainly comapitibilty issues with his mother, when the main motive was dowry. Alas we don't have elders who are given respect! |
| Re: Wife abuse/ need bro's opinion |
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| jannah |
| 08/10/03 at 13:38:30 |
| [wlm] I'm apalled that people would blame sister azizah for her son's abuse. I mean come on there's a limit to how much you can blame the parents. If the kid turns out to be wack it's still his fault and his responsibility. It's he that will have to answer for his actions on the Day of Judgement and she will have her own actions to be responsible for. There are tons of kids who are abused/don't have parents and still make the right choices in life. AND especially in this case where she's obviously made her dissapproval known. Honestly azizah there's only so much you can do, especially since he's a grown man independent on his own. He needs to learn that kind of behavior is not acceptable. I think you did a good job in bringing it home that you dissapprove of it and do not think it's right. But for some men, it only hits home when his wife tells him that she's not going to take it anymore. |
| Re: Wife abuse/ need bro's opinion |
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| timbuktu |
| 08/10/03 at 14:04:57 |
| [slm] i agree with sister jannah that the posts from my fellow brother are misdirected. instead of advice, it is blame. & as sis azizah said the fault is with his father. i think it mostly is. looks like time for another true story. i was going to write it earlier, but thought it better to forget it. Now i think i had better recollect my memory, & tell the story. maybe there is some lesson in it. so you will have to wait for a day or two before i recollect, type & post the story. & if you are tired of this story-telling, go ahead & ask me to stop. i wont mind. |
| 08/13/03 at 03:31:52 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Wife abuse/ need bro's opinion |
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| Caraj |
| 08/10/03 at 21:35:24 |
| I wanted to say something from my heart, due to a private message I got I wanted to let you all know whats on my heart :) Do you all know why I chose to come here, joke here, socialize here and even give and ask for advice here? 1) Because I love each and everyone of you, in a proper sisterly type way. 2) Even though we don't always agree, I have ALWAYS felt accepted here. 3)I know, I feel it strongly in my heart, here I am amoung sisters and brothers who will give me an honest answer. Even if it is not what I want to hear, NOTICE ;) One of the medina news flashes tells us, to speak the truth no matter if it cause a problem. I know here I will get honest input. Doesn't always mean I'll agree with it :P but I know it will be someones honest feelings. Maybe I get to personal out here. I stay to myself as my husband is gone, I don't feel it proper to go out to socialize without him. I have checked out other Islamic boards, this by far is the BEST, and I mean that. I use to do the chat room thing on a regular basis but I knew in my heart it was not right. I chose this place to be my family and my socialization. I was a little like "WHOA where did that come from?" from some of the posts, and I appreciate Sister Jannah and Brother Timbuktu for standing up for me. Thank you. And Anon I really think you are right, someone he respects needs to talk to him. If I can find such a person. My son worked hard to get where he is but he is prideful about it. That effects how he thinks of others. I just truly wanted a mans opinion on how to deal with a man. I think I will write a few short notes and keep them in the car or my purse. Notes to my son, and when he is verbally abusive to his wife in my presence I will hand him a note and hug him and quietly walk away. The note will tell him how much I love him, how I know he is hurting inside cause he must to act this way and mention I cannot be witness to this abuse so I am leaving him with this note and I will see him next time. I think this is how I will handle it. Thank you all. I was a little mifted but honestly not offended. |
| Re: Wife abuse/ need bro's opinion |
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| timbuktu |
| 08/11/03 at 01:37:23 |
| [quote author=azizah link=board=madrasa;num=1060488178;start=0#9 date=08/10/03 at 21:35:24]when he is verbally abusive to his wife in my presence .................... I think this is how I will handle it[/quote] u can give it a try, it is typical motherly style. it may work, it may not. but let us hope for the best. & if he stops doing it in your presense, but abuses in privacy, then what? i had my story near-ready, but should i tell it now or not? perhaps no need here, as sister azizah has decided on a course of action. but if there is someone in a similar or worse situation, & asks for this story, then i will submit it. |
| Re: Wife abuse/ need bro's opinion |
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| Caraj |
| 08/11/03 at 02:05:56 |
| [quote author=timbuktu link=board=madrasa;num=1060488178;start=0#10 date=08/11/03 at 01:37:23] i had my story near-ready, but should i tell it now or not? perhaps no need here, as sister azizah has decided on a course of action. but if there is someone in a similar or worse situation, & asks for this story, then i will submit it. [/quote] Please, just because I had an idea does not mean it is right or it will work, please if you feel it will help me or maybe others please do share your story. How weird, I been thinking and worrying about this and did this post and tonight my son called me, he was angry and had walked out of his house to drive around. I am thankful he feels safe to come to me. We talked maybe 30 to 40 minutes and he vented and talked to me and explained things to me, he got calmer as time went on. So now besides advice on what to do when he verbally abuses I have a new question, If a woman is directly disobeying her husband and he is concerned about her safety at work and also her not being home much, is that a reason to be verbally abusive to her, if he tried talking but she would not listen? He said he has tried talking to her, and he said the only thing he has not done that he is thinking of trying is ignoring her. I kind of think that is cruel, but I remember someone on the board mentioning an Islamic thing where a man can ignore his wife if she is being ?????? Can't think of the word for it, disobeying? Straying from doing right? ok ok ok, I think I need a break from this, they both come to me and they both vent to me and they both talk to me, Is it ok ;D to put them both over my knees and spank them like naughty children??? Please, it is no longer child abuse they are over 18 :D OH No, I guess that would be assult :o wouldn't it. Tried suggesting counseling, my son said he will not go tell a stranger his problems. ::) I think Momma needs a vacation, my poor other son is also tired of his brother and his siter-in-laws antics. And Grandma is too. |
| 08/11/03 at 02:08:18 |
| Caraj |
| Re: Wife abuse/ need bro's opinion |
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| faisalsb |
| 08/11/03 at 02:13:57 |
| [slm] :) Well apart from the blaming that I am blaming others, Sister Aziza I think from your last post root causes of the problem are very clear. As I said earlier I think your daughter in law is in better position to play some positive role. Because as a MAN I know the most important person in man's life is his mother. Even he doesn't listen to whole world but when it comes to his mother then he might accept what he clearly knows is wrong. I think we have seen many stories on the board where daughter in laws have to sustain wrong behavior of their mother in laws because their husbands blindly believe their mothers. Now if the situation arises that a man doesn't listen to his mother either then it's really a complicated problem. I think what you can do is call him someday when you are alone. Make a good food for him (as we know you are a good cook .......;)) Let him relax and make the atmosphere favorable. Then you can start to talk about the problems what you had with your ex-husband and the reasons behind your short commings as a mother and expected reasons behind your ex-husband's being bad father. Tell him you and your ex-husband have been suffering for your short commings in shape of having a abusive son. If he dosn't realise the problem and don't put full stop to this cycle then tommorow would be his turn. It might be kind of lecturing but I think that much is what is in your hand. I still think your daughter in law is in better place to do something. Particularly the things what you have mentioned about her in your last post it sounds she is a wise lady. Yes, you said your son haven't hit her wife for many years now and he kept his word not to do so ever again. I think that leads to some light at end of the tunnel. At last but not least Sister Aziza I think I don't need to mention it since it's very clear from your last post that you got me right although some of my other friends felt otherwise. I didn't mean to blame you in fact it's a public board and I might be saying something indirectly to new mothers or who are going to be mother soon ...........;) |
| Re: Wife abuse/ need bro's opinion |
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| timbuktu |
| 08/11/03 at 02:44:09 |
| [slm] well brother faisal, no blame game here. a genuine difference of opinion. & i apologize if it came out as a blame. & now the story: this was the umpteenth time. as i looked at my colleague's wife, i knew the reason for her coming here. The thought that there was nothing i could do, made me sick, but i had to hide it. the woman needed help, & i was a non-muharram. although the veil & hijab had been out of favor for at least two decades, she wasn't going to ask me directly for help. she had come to seek it from my wife, who did not want this continuing saga to put our family under some strain. & there i was, knowing what had happened, & unable to see a way out. My wife took her to a separate room & after two hours, they came out & the colleague's wife's (i will call her cW2 for short) face marked with tears. i signalled my wife (i will name her mW for short) to come over. she told me what had happened, & that cW2 did not want to go home. i could sense that mW did not want to get involved much, & expected me to just send this unwanted guest home. could I? i asked myself. Let me go back several years. This young man had joined my office, we lived near each other, we became friends. First i married, & then since he was much younger, a few years later he did. Now our families visited each other. this colleague's wife cooked excellent food. well, this is not to say that mW does not cook well. both families had children, & well they were very likeable, the wife always smiling & the husband always eager to help & friendly. Then he had a nasty accident. & after a few months, one evening, i just got a phone call from him: "my wife is dead, heart attack". Well, we did what is done in such circumstances. Then, after a period of sending the children to grandparents, & back again. the colleague decided to go back to where he came from, as the children were young. After some years he appeared again to rejoin the office, & after a short while, he got married again, to cW2, & the children were now with him. we were apprehensive at first, as we thought that the step-mother would not look after the children well, but i checked from time to time, & everything looked smooth. Well, i was happy for the children, & we had renewed our family visits. Then one evening cW2 came to our house & told my wife that she had been beaten, & that abuse & beatings had been going on from day one. & that after beating her, my colleague (i will now call him mC) would beg her to forgive him, & even touch her feet for forgivenss. This was news to me. i had not thought that ppl scold & beat wives in this day & age. She stayed for a few hours, & when mC came, i scolded him like an elder brother. He was always respectful to me. He complained about her housekeeping deficiencies, but when my wife told him it is no valid excuse to beat her, & when he saw my anger at this behavior, he promised to stop it. She went with him. She was back in a few days. He tried to sow suspicion in my mind about his wife. it was so childish, what he took as behavior at which i would take his side, was something i rather appreciated. The pattern was repeated. & then little by little more information about him came to my knowledge. How he has always beaten his children blue, & how his first wife was dying & asking him to take her to hospital, but he insisted that this was just a drama, & this is how cW1 died without medical attention. in the west he would be tried for murder by negligence, but his family hushed up all this, & it came out later, little by little, as the children talked. also how he had broken the arm of his young son. This information resulted in my becoming angry with mW for not telling me all this, although she had known it all along. Everytime cW2 came to our house, i had this clash inside me. Who am i to interfere? if this guy simply says stay out of my affairs, what would i be able to do? my wife did not want us to get involved in any more problems, & why should i put her to stresses, when she was already working outside as well as taking care of the house? & yet, here was a soul, who had entered my house & sought protection. It all ended up with me cajoling, pleading with mC to be human, threatening to take the matter to the law & exposing him to society (which would only bring a bad name to him), & eventually persuading cW2 to go back. But all the time i knew that i was on a weak wicket. The law takes its own time, & justice is seldom delivered. The family would be destroyed, & the children i am trying to protect would have no chance. & society: it turned out everyone knew about his cruelty except me. i had been so blind! i talked to his family members, over & over & their's was a community i wouldn't want to have any relations with. The mother told me proudly that she had been beaten regularly by her husband. They expected women to be satisfied with what was bought for them (the males knew & did take care about details of feminine affairs), but the men were really masters in their households, & could do anything to the women & the children. cW2's father also came to meet me, & told his concern & disappointment. Now i felt a bit easy, here was someone who had a legitimate interest. So next time i will contact him & cW2 would go back to her father. The next time arrived, & i let cW2 make calls to her parents & brother. They arranged a day among themselves, & one day, mC rang me up to say that cW2 had run away. i understood what had happened, but did not let on. Eventually he divorced her, letting her keep custody of their only daughter. The children by the earlier marriage were with mC. He sent her some money for maintenance, which she returned. so i was party to this woman's running away, & the divorce. i just hope i did right. Then a further period of destabilisation followed. I heard his call for help again. The youngest daughter, just a kid, had run away. She was found days later, & she had run away because of fear of her father for not doing good in school. it was incredible. The grandmother was unable or unwilling to take care of the children. I was initially convinced that he was a psycopath, until i found that there were many others who beat their wives & children. There were reports from neighbors of his continued beating of his children. when i confronted him with this, he said that he is alone, he wants them to do well in exams, & he never hits, he only touches them. apparently we men do not realise that our touch is with such a force that it actually hurts. He got married again to, you guessed it, cW3. Then the news of his misbehavior stopped coming to us. instead he would now come to tell me about his children's misdeeds. i tried to help, but his children were now growing up, & the son said simply: "i am with my father because he is paying for my body needs & my education. when i complete it, i will leave his house." The eldest girl was always making phone calls way beyond his means. Our contacts became less & less frequent. i think i pushed the problems of that family away from my mind, because i was emotionally tired out. & then the bombshell! The eldest daughter came to our house, & looked as if she was very disturbed. She had run away, & wanted us to provide protection, or else she would run away again & not care what happens to her. Well, i let her stay for a few days, but it could not be indefinite. any tome mC could come to my house asking for help, & finding the daughter would create a scene. So, i looked for help, & found some NGO's. one was specifically for women who had been battered, physically or emotionally. i left her in their care. There were several times when i observed conflicting emotions in that girl. She still loved her father but hated this stepmother. & sometimes she would express hatred for all her family. The girl had also developed some problems. She had become a conniving liar, as i later found out. Suffice it to say that the NGO eventually persuaded the girl to go back to her uncle. but would not let her in again when she again ran away. She had told me that when her father verbally abused this cW3 & her parents, cW3 replied in kind & with such colorful language that the father was very angry & hit his wife. at which cW3 slapped him back. & that after that mC never said or did anything wrong to cW3. what i did was: when later discussing the daughter's problems with her, to make her relaxed i told her that her stepmother had found the right way to stop this man from being abusive or violent. While living in her uncle's house, she came to her father's house, told him off in no uncertain terms what she thought of him, slapped him hard, & went out. That stunned her father to such an extent that he gave up saying anything abusive or hitting anyone. Then i heard she left her uncle's home as well, and married someone she had met on-line. i no longer hear of any abuse in that family. |
| 08/11/03 at 10:48:08 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Wife abuse/ need bro's opinion |
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| faisalsb |
| 08/11/03 at 03:04:31 |
| [slm] Brother timbuktu .... I was just kidding and no need for appologize in fact I was not offended by anything at all. Well the story is really a very good lesson for all of us but I am just wondering can we still call the group of those people a FAMILY ? |
| 08/11/03 at 03:08:22 |
| faisalsb |
| Re: Wife abuse/ need bro's opinion |
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| timbuktu |
| 08/12/03 at 11:13:06 |
| [slm] hey sisters, it just occurred to me that my story may be interpreted as a license to abuse & hit husbands. i just related to you this was needed to knock some sense in a particular hard nutcase. That is only in extreme cases, & from sis azizah's last post, the d-i-l is at fault, so plz do not hit your husbands on account of my story, dear sisters. i dont want to answer for other ppl's deeds. & brother Faisal, thanks. i think relatives by blood definitely constitute family. There is no way one can disown them in Islam. spouse by marriage is family only as long as the marriage lasts. so i think, but if i am wrong, i am open to correction. wa assalam |
| 08/12/03 at 11:14:22 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Wife abuse/ need bro's opinion |
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| faisalsb |
| 08/13/03 at 02:08:09 |
| [slm] Well the point what I am trying to make is that family is based on values and mutual respect. All of us on the board call each other brothers and sisters and as a whole we call it a Madina family. Although most of us even don't know each other in real life. That's also a fact that sometimes we feel more close to this virtual family than compare to our REAL family. Why is that? Because it's based on values and mutual respect apart from genuine difference in opinion. If the people don't have respect for each other husband has no respect for wife and children and vice verca then in biological sense they still might be called family but in social sense I don't think they deserve to be called family. I think the discussion has taken a bit different turn apart from the defination of FAMILY my original point what I try to make all the time (but nobody listens to me ..........:)) is that EVIL CAN'T BE FIXED WITH ANOTHER EVIL and I dare to make this point without denying the system of accountability. It's true and basic principle kf Islam that there is tooth against tooth, eye against eye and head against head. But we need to see and analyze how Holy Prophet [saw] implemented that system. First of all we have to discharge our all the abilities and options to fix the problem peacefully particularly when it comes to family problems. If the person cross all the limits particularly if he becomes a threat to safety of other family members then we should go for extreme action to invoke law but taking law in one's own hand is not advisable at any stage ......... Walla Hu Alam |
| 08/13/03 at 02:11:14 |
| faisalsb |
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