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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| cops in hijab |
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| muslimah853 |
| 08/15/03 at 21:11:00 |
| [slm] http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/6535907.htm Interesting. |
| Re: cops in hijab |
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| bhaloo |
| 08/16/03 at 01:33:31 |
| [slm] Here ear is exposed. I couldn't believe this statement in the article: ;=========================================== She said some Muslim scholars agree that wearing the hijab is mandated by God. "It is open for interpretation," she said. "Some scholars say it's not [mandated], but most say it is, according to my understanding. "But that's beside the point," Ahmed said. "As long as it's her religious belief, it's for her to decide." ;============================================ This is a wrong statement. The truth is no scholar of Islam would say it's not mandated. |
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| amatullah |
| 08/16/03 at 12:40:17 |
| Hijab AN ACT OF OBEDIENCE The hijab is an act of obedience to Allah and to his prophet (pbuh), Allah says in the Qur'an: `It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His messenger have decreed a matter that they should have an option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, has indeed strayed in a plain error.' (S33:36). Allah also said: 'And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things) and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc) and not to show off their adornment except what must (ordinarily) appear thereof, that they should draw their veils over their Juyubihinna.'(S24:31). Juyubihinna: The respected scholars from As-Salaf As-Saleh (righteous predecessors) differed whether the veil cover of the body must include the hands and face or not. Today, respected scholars say that the hands and face must be covered. Other respected scholars say it is preferable for women to cover their whole bodies. THE HIJAB IS IFFAH (MODESTY) Allah (subhana wa'atala) made the adherence to the hijab a manifestation for chastity and modesty. Allah says: 'O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) over their bodies (when outdoors). That is most convenient that they should be known and not molested.' (S33:59). In the above Ayaah there is an evidence that the recognition of the apparent beauty of the woman is harmful to her. When the cause of attraction ends, the restriction is removed. This is illustrated in the case of elderly women who may have lost every aspect of attraction. Allah (swt) made it permissible for them to lay aside their outer garments and expose their faces and hands reminding, however, that is still better for them to keep their modesty. THE HIJAB IS TAHARA (PURITY) Allah (swt) had shown us the hikma (wisdom) behind the legislation of the hijab: `And when you ask them (the Prophet's wives) for anything you want, ask them from behind a screen, that is purer for your hearts and their hearts.' (S33:53). The hijab makes for greater purity for the hearts of believing men and women because it screens against the desire of the heart. Without the hijab, the heart may or may not desire. That is why the heart is more pure when the sight is blocked (by hijab) and thus the prevention of fitna (evil actions is very much manifested. The hijab cuts off the ill thoughts and the greed of the sick hearts: `Be not soft in speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease (of hypocrisy or evil desire for adultery, etc) should be moved with desire, but speak in an honourable manner.' (S33:32) THE HIJAB IS A SHIELD The prophet (pbuh) said: "Allah, Most High, is Heaven, is Ha'yeii (Bashful), Sit'teer (Shielder). He loves Haya' (Bashfulness) and Sitr (Shielding; Covering)." The Prophet (pbuh) also said: "Any woman who takes off her clothes in other than her husband's house (to show off for unlawful purposes), has broken Allah's shield upon her. "The hadith demonstrates that depending upon the kind of action committed there will be either reward (if good) or punishment (if bad). THE HIJAB IS TAQWAH (RIGHTEOUSNESS) Allah (swt) says in the Qur'an: `O children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover yourselves (screen your private parts, etc) and as an adornment. But the raiment of righteousness, that is better.'(S7:26). The widespread forms of dresses in the world today are mostly for show off and hardly taken as a cover and shield of the woman's body. To the believing women, however the purpose is to safeguard their bodies and cover their private parts as a manifestation of the order of Allah. It is an act of Taqwah (righteousness). THE HIJAB IS EEMMAN (BELIER OR FAITH) Allah (swt) did not address His words about the hijab except to the believing women, Al-Mo'minat. In many cases in the Qur'an Allah refers to the "the believing women". Aisha (RA), the wife of the prophet (pbuh), addressed some women from the tribe of Banu Tameem who came to visit her and had light clothes on them, they were improperly dressed: "If indeed you are believing women, then truly this is not the dress of the believing women, and if you are not believing women, then enjoy it." THE HIJAB IS HAYA' (BASHFULNESS) There are two authentic hadith which state: "Each religion has a morality and the morality of Islam is haya'" AND "Bashfulness is from belief, and belief is in Al-Jannah (paradise)". The hijab fits the natural bashfulness which is a part of the nature of women. THE HIJAB IS GHEEERAH The hijab fits the natural feeling of Gheerah, which is intrinsic in the straight man who does not like people to look at his wife or daughters. Gheerah is a driving emotion that drives the straight man to safeguard women who are related to him from strangers. The straight MUSLIM man has Gheerah for ALL MUSLIM women In response to lust and desire, men look (with desire) at other women while they do not mind that other men do the same to their wives or daughters. The mixing of sexes and absence of hijab destroys the Gheera in men. Islam considers Gheerah an integral part of faith. The dignity of the wife or daughter or any other Muslim woman must be highly respected and defended. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Source:http://anwary-islam.com/ |
| Re: cops in hijab |
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| muslimah853 |
| 08/16/03 at 21:58:34 |
| [slm] Well, I don't agree with that statement, but I would hope that we have more words of support for the sister as opposed to simply criticizing what we see as her shortcomings or deficiencies in understanding. We don't know if she's a relatively new Muslim, if she's been able to learn properly, etc. And the fact of the matter is, it takes real courage for her to stand up for this. She is risking losing her job. There are many among us with "correct understanding" who wouldn't have the guts to do what she is doing. And anyone who knows anything about police departments should know that this is certainly not an easy thing. The pressure to conform in that environment is great. May Allah bless this sister. |
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| Kathy |
| 08/17/03 at 10:25:26 |
| [slm] :-)Wow! Subhannah Allah... the courage she has. Getting a job in the police department took lot of training and takes alot of dedication. Just imagine giving up your wealth and income to stand up for your rights. ;-)I often wonder how many brothers would have the same courage. Of course they will immediately say they do, but it is very apparent that even tho kufis, beards a fist length (debateable), ankle high pants(again-debateable), loose and baggy clothes, may not be required but they are recommended. Yes, her ear is showing... but who knows what stage of adorning hijab she is at. Let's give her credit for covering her hair and neck and encourage her to cover her ear. Insha Allah, soon she will be comfortable covering it all. I am sure her uniform is form fitting too...but let her take her baby steps as I am sure she struggles with that also. I often wonder how many woman refuse to accept Islam because of the scarf issue, or rather the Muslims who make it the most important part of the deen. ::)Also, I happen to reflect on the article they did on me... erronously saying that I spoke the pledge of allegience to the flag. Not everything we read is "gospel." If she did say something like that, I am sure a sis will point it out to her. You are right bhaloo, no true scholar would say that, and the average reader will not know this. There have been self proclaimed scholars in the press who have wrongly advocated the view that the scarf is not mandated. Perhaps this is why the CAIR representitive made the statement with that particular wording. :-)Nice article on Hijab, amatullah. [quote]Today, respected scholars say that the hands and face must be covered. Other respected scholars say it is preferable for women to cover their whole bodies. [/quote] Are we talking burqas and niqab? Sounds like this article is saying niqab is mandatory, not to get into the niqab isuue [i]and you know I will have to close this topic if you all do.[/i] ;) |
| 08/17/03 at 10:29:54 |
| Kathy |
| Re: cops in hijab |
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| se7en |
| 08/17/03 at 14:05:19 |
| as salaamu alaykum, [quote] Webb, recently divorced and the mother of six children [/quote] She is the care taker for her family, has *six* children she needs to provide for, and she is still willing to risk her job to wear hijab!? that takes *a lot* of courage... power to da :-) wasalaam |
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| pearl |
| 08/17/03 at 14:26:26 |
| [quote author=bhaloo link=board=sis;num=1060992660;start=0#1 date=08/16/03 at 01:33:31] Here ear is exposed.[/quote] [slm] I'm not sure why, but I've noticed that many of my fellow African American sisters wear their hijab with ears exposed and, quite often, with necks exposed, also. I don't think it's intentional wrong-doing. In any case, if we really want to get technical, the standard police uniform isn't quite proper for a Muslimah to wear, anyway, is it? They usually consist of a shirt which must be tucked into pants or a knee length skirt. Both expose the shape of the body. They often wear short sleeves. Additionally, as a cop on the beat, she's going to come into close contact with many non-mahrem men and with men & women in unsavory situations and states of undress. And what about her partner on patrol? Probably a man. I think this woman is doing the best she can, I salute her courage and I hope she wins her case. (Maybe Tube Scarf style 2 would be an option for her ... close-fitting, no loose-ends, and covers her neck and ears ..... http://store.yahoo.com/alhediya/tubescarf.html ) Pearl :-) |
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| IMuslim_4Ever |
| 08/17/03 at 16:06:18 |
| [slm] "Ahmed herself wears a hijab "for the purpose of identity, the purpose of protection, and the purpose of modesty. "It protects me from unwanted gazers, it's an act of modesty, and an act of worship." She said some Muslim scholars agree that wearing the hijab is mandated by God. "It is open for interpretation," she said. "Some scholars say it's not [mandated], but most say it is, according to my understanding. "But that's beside the point," Ahmed said. "As long as it's her religious belief, it's for her to decide." It wasn't Ms. Webb who said that Hijab is not mandatory according some scholors...It was Rabiah Ahmed, a council spokeswoman who made that statement... Ms. Webb is trying her best to be a good muslimah...she said that it is a command from Allah and she will go on wearing Hijab. I credit her for the determination and Inshaallah she will fight back to win her religious rights...Lets all Pray for her. ameen... ma salaama |
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| Nomi |
| 08/17/03 at 18:21:15 |
| [slm] [quote author=Kathy link=board=sis;num=1060992660;start=0#4 date=08/17/03 at 10:25:26] but it is very apparent that even tho kufis, beards a fist length (debateable), ankle high pants(again-debateable), loose and baggy clothes, may not be required but they are recommended. [/quote] But i think thats how we men should be. Ah! the "shalwar qameez" i'm wearing it now only after a whole week ::) need strength, need it more.......... |
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| amatullah |
| 08/18/03 at 19:18:45 |
| Thanks Kathy i like it too. I didn't read the article my sis muslima853 put yet. I came to post a few articles in different folders and the top one here in akhwat was related to hijab so I just put it with it instead of alone. I'm glad you liked it. We don't have to agree with everything in it but it is some scholars' ijtihad. I want to cover more but haven't yet but insha'Allah one day. |
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| panjul |
| 08/18/03 at 23:43:43 |
| [slm] Well, I don't agree with that statement, but I would hope that we have more words of support for the sister as opposed to simply criticizing what we see as her shortcomings or deficiencies in understanding. That's always a problem with us, we pick up on the negative things so much that we lose sight of the good. The sister is a strong one and may Allah help her in her jihad and may He guide her and us. Ameen. |
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| amatullah |
| 08/19/03 at 10:31:16 |
| [quote author=panjul link=board=sis;num=1060992660;start=0#10 date=08/18/03 at 23:43:43] [slm] Well, I don't agree with that statement, but I would hope that we have more words of support for the sister as opposed to simply criticizing what we see as her shortcomings or deficiencies in understanding. That's always a problem with us, we pick up on the negative things so much that we lose sight of the good. The sister is a strong one and may Allah help her in her jihad and may He guide her and us. Ameen. [/quote] come on. I think if this were a sister right infront of him that will not be the first words out of his mouth but Allah only knows best. When you are putting an article that may contain a wrong piece of info on whether hijab is mandatory or not, then [i]someone[/i] has to point it out for all the non-Muslims who do read on the board or the new Muslims and born Muslims who don't really know it yet. |
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| Trustworthy |
| 08/19/03 at 16:37:22 |
| [slm] I can't beleive that none of you picked this up ???.....a Muslimah should not be in such a job in the first place especially when she's a single mom of 6. If she can be a police officer, she can do better than a police officer. Think about the duties of a police officer...then think about the duties of a Muslimah. We can't even join the battlefeild unless there is no one else. The reason why Mom said I could not join the Airforce. Eh....oh well. Now, STOP!!! Let me run and hide first before all y'all sisters come at me now. Ma-asalaama.... |
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| muslimah853 |
| 08/19/03 at 18:07:54 |
| [slm] Couple of things. Not trying to attack you here, just raising some points for discussion. a) she became a police officer before she became a Muslim. b) Muslimas may not be obligated to do jihad, but is it haram for them to do so? There were women who joined battles alongside the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace. c) I'm not from Philly, but my guess is that it's much the same as Muslim communities elsewhere, in that a single Muslim woman with six other mouths to feed isn't going to be given sufficient monetary support for her family by the community that she has joined in the event that she doesn't have a job. Until and unless we are doing that for people, it's kinda hard to tell them to give up a good paying job with benefits to do something that we feel is more Islamically suitable. Most brothers in the Muslim community wouldn't even consider marrying such a woman, unfortunately, and our distribution of zakat in most cases is laughable at best and non-existent at worst. I honestly don't know what the ruling would be on her doing this job, admittedly it does raise some interesting questions. If it's haram for her, because she has to, for example, pat down non-mahrem male suspects, then wouldn't the same apply for male Muslim officers? They would have to do the same for non-mahrem females, or perhaps have a partner who is female who they'd be alone with in the car everyday, etc. Are we telling them to quit too? |
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| bhaloo |
| 08/20/03 at 02:20:24 |
| [slm] [quote author=amatullah link=board=sis;num=1060992660;start=0#11 date=08/19/03 at 10:31:16] come on. I think if this were a sister right infront of him that will not be the first words out of his mouth but Allah only knows best. When you are putting an article that may contain a wrong piece of info on whether hijab is mandatory or not, then [i]someone[/i] has to point it out for all the non-Muslims who do read on the board or the new Muslims and born Muslims who don't really know it yet. [/quote] Jazak Allah khairen sister. I was going to mention what you said along with with quotes from Sheikh ul Islam Ibn Tamiyyah's book, Commanding Right and Forbidding the Evil (don't know where i misplaced it). But in short when someone mentions some unislamic practice and calls it part of Islam publically, this needs to be corrected, this is part of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil, and if we don't do this, this can be a cause of being punished by Allah (SWT). [I know I had quoted from the book some months back]. |
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| Trustworthy |
| 08/20/03 at 12:44:12 |
| [slm] Good questions sis. Here are my answers. a. She ate pork as well before she was Muslim. Should she continue knowing it is wrong? b. Muslimahs are obligated to do jihad, but in terms of war, only when there are a few men to fight against the enemy. And I asked that question about Muslimahs fighting along side the Prophet. That is not so. They were on the side lines giving water and aiding the wounded. c. I'm not from Philly either, but b/c she is a police officer, she can ask for other duties such as secretarial work or anything that doesn't force her to put her life at stake. Like you say, she might not have the support of the community, so I would advise to her to stay alive as long as possible and with her Officer duties, you know that's limited. No worries about police men. I feel the same way about that issue too. If it's not considered jihad then I'd find something else to do. But that's my humble opinion. And the Bro is right about the hijab issue. That's what ticked me off as well. Sunnis have strict rules about the hijab and clear as water. I hope I don't keep offending you Sister. It's not my intention. Ma-asalaama.... |
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| Sakinah |
| 08/20/03 at 16:47:42 |
| [slm] I have 2 say that I agree with Trustworthy on this one. Even though the sister had the job before she became a Muslim, someone should have pointed out to her the fitnah of it: 1) Her uniform 2) Her partner 3) She is helping to enforce kufr laws in a kufr country. Allah knows best as to whether a hijab with her (already tight fitting) unifom would be the biggest issue. What about the fact that in a country where Muslims should be on defense (i.e.: look at the recent news) she may (Allah forbid) be put in a situation where she would have to arrest a Muslim brother/sister for some trumped up charges. Not to mention one of the most important things to learn is that Allah subhana wa ta ala' is The Provider and Bestower. So if you leave something for His sake by His will you will be provided with something better. Still in all I can't bypass the fact that she is a strong :-)(May Allah subhana reward her). And InshaAllah she will win her case. |
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| muslimah853 |
| 08/20/03 at 17:38:51 |
| [slm] No one's offended sister, just having a discussion. In terms of whether or not it's halal or haram for her to have the job in the first place, my position is that it's best to leave that discussion to the scholars since none of us are qualified to make that assertion. Realizing that her performance of her duties will most likely put her in situations that are not necessarily halal under normal circumstances, there are many variables that come into play in general or that may be specific to her situation that we don't even know about, much less make a judgment on. Again, if it's haram for her, then all of those brothers in the country who are police officers are in the wrong too it seems, but I haven't heard any people of knowledge saying that. Allah knows best. It brings up other interesting questions. Can Muslims be ER physicians, considering they will generally routinely treat patients of the opposite sex, see their 'awrah, touch them? Can they be firefighters, where they may have to pull someone out of a fire who is not their mahrem? Can they be journalists, working for media outlets which often give negative portrayals of Islam? It's easy to sit and say that she should do this or should not do that, she can transfer, quit her job, etc. But none of us knows her life circumstances. Has she tried to transfer? What are her other job skills and qualifications? What is her general knowledge of Islam? In terms of enforcing laws of a non-Muslim land...the overwhelming majority of situations that police officers are going to deal with are going to be situations that a Muslim would want to be involved in stopping...drug deals, robberies, domestic violence intervention, murder, child abuse, down to relatively benign stuff like directing traffic or stopping speeding cars on the highway. Situations which come up that present a conflict of interest one would need to evaluate as they come, and make a decision about how you're going to act. But honestly, those situations come up in practically all jobs...do I attend the company party with alcohol, do I shake this non-mahrem's hand or not, what if I'm an architect and my company is commissioned to design a church, what if I work in a supermarket and I have to ring up someone's order who is buying pork? What if I fix copy machines for a living and I have to fix a machine that is owned by the local tavern? Construction worker whose company is hired to work on a job building a casino? That doesn't make it haram to go into that line of work, necessarily...each case has to be judged on its particulars. In terms of learning to trust in Allah, that obviously is a very important lesson that all of us need to learn...but I would argue that this sister doesn't seem to be lacking in that department...she is the provider for herself and six dependants, and she is risking all of that to make a stand for what she believes is right. Whether or not it's halal for her to have the job in the first place, Allah knows best, but she's making a stand that many of us wouldn't have the courage to if we were in her shoes. |
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| Trustworthy |
| 08/20/03 at 19:05:51 |
| [slm] Cool. I commend her courage, no question about that. What I am trying to emphasize is her duty as a Muslimah especially one that is a single mother. That is her first and foremost duty, motherhood if she is a mother already. Sure we don't know her entire situation. Maybe all of her children are grown, may be she wasn't able to get anything else in the police department, but being a single mother, her importance is raised on her children. If she does not have the support of the community, who will care for her children if she, gets injured on duty or die? Islamic laws don't change to wherever you live or what century you are in. If it's Haram, don't question it. If it's haram for us, it's haram for all. Pork sold in stores....don't work there. Interests done in banks....don't work there. Construction of a Casino....don't even go there. That's all forbidden. Find away to stay away before you stray. And it goes both ways for men and women. Other careers such as physicians and such, the rules don't apply b/c you're saving a life so to speak. Like I said, women were there to aid the wounded who are men who aren't mahrems. Conditions apply when necessary. If I was walking and saw a car accident of a Muslim man whom I know of the community who isn't my mahrem, I would help whether or not if I'm the only one there. You have to know the difference between what is a necessity and what is not. Allah judges on intentions and actions. You may not be a scholar, but you should know you're religion. I mean Scholars aren't available 24/7. I hope I made sense. Allahu-Alim. Ma-asalaama.... |
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| ido |
| 08/20/03 at 19:47:32 |
| Assalamu'alaikum all! finally been allowed to register :-X, so insya'allah this will be the first of many posts for me...BUT to the topic in hand... [quote author=Trustworthy link=board=sis;num=1060992660;start=15#15 date=08/20/03 at 12:44:12] [slm] b. Muslimahs are obligated to do jihad, but in terms of war, only when there are a few men to fight against the enemy. And I asked that question about Muslimahs fighting along side the Prophet. That is not so. They were on the side lines giving water and aiding the wounded. [/quote] Aisha the Prophet's wife fought, yes actually fought with her army, in the battle against Ali and his supporters. of course, this was her ijtihad, her decision, but it IS a precedent for women to be in the frontline even with no shortage of male fighters. by the way, i am in noway commenting on the fact that it was muslims fighting muslims!!! (that's for another thread). Allahu'alam on that one and all that has been and will be. wassalam. |
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| muslimah853 |
| 08/20/03 at 20:13:59 |
| That is her first and foremost duty, motherhood if she is a mother already. And a large part of being a mother is feeding your children and making sure they have a roof over their heads. I was raised by a single mother, so I know that there were certain things that needed to be sacrificed simply so that we would have our basic needs met. If you're the only provider, it's not always easy to be picky about jobs. My mother had to work nights for alot of years. It wasn't ideal, her children were left in the house all night alone...she had to travel to and from work in the dark at strange hours, particularly coming home, possibly putting herself at risk of being mugged or worse. But what are you going to do when rent is due and you have multiple mouths to feed? Yes, we trust in Allah, but I can't be judgmental about the choices someone else has to make when I'm not walking in their shoes. Islamic laws don't change to wherever you live or what century you are in. If it's Haram, don't question it. If it's haram for us, it's haram for all. Actually, it's not always that simple. Certain things are black and white, but there are alot of gray areas in shari'ah. For example in usul al fiqh you have things like maslaha and 'urf which come into play...sometimes a fatwa *does* actually change depending on time and place, or even from individual to individual, depending on their circumstances. Choosing the lesser of two evils, all of these things come into play when a ruling is made. Pork sold in stores....don't work there. Interests done in banks....don't work there. Construction of a Casino....don't even go there. That's all forbidden. Find away to stay away before you stray. My point was, if you live and work in the west, and probably increasingly in Muslim countries too, you are eventually going to be faced with a situation on your job, no matter how halal it is on the surface, which isn't permissible. It doesn't make any of those occupations in and of themselves haram. Even if you are receiving paper money as payment for your services, it's interest based and therefore not entirely halal--even if you didn't go into any gray areas to get paid. That doesn't mean that it is haram to work. Each individual situation needs to be evaluated by people who know the details of the situation as well as know the shari'ah very well. I know I'm not qualified to do that, and no offense to you, but I doubt that anyone else on this board is either. Therefore one consults people who do have this knowledge. And it goes both ways for men and women. Other careers such as physicians and such, the rules don't apply b/c you're saving a life so to speak. Like I said, women were there to aid the wounded who are men who aren't mahrems. Conditions apply when necessary. If I was walking and saw a car accident of a Muslim man whom I know of the community who isn't my mahrem, I would help whether or not if I'm the only one there. Dunno, police officers are very often in the business of saving other people's lives. The article in fact specifically mentions that this sister was involved in an incident where she helped save the life of a woman whose husband was stabbing her to death. You have to know the difference between what is a necessity and what is not. Allah judges on intentions and actions. You may not be a scholar, but you should know you're religion. I mean Scholars aren't available 24/7. No, they aren't always available. That doesn't change the fact that my qualifications are limited, actually, non-existent. I do the best I can, like most of us, and am fortunate, masha'allah to have access to some very knowledgeable people when I am unsure of something. Still, neither one of us is qualified to make a judgment about the particulars of her situation. Allah tells us in the Qur'an to ask those who know, when we don't. I prefer to leave it at that. |
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| Trustworthy |
| 08/21/03 at 12:36:41 |
| [slm] This is fun. "No, they aren't always available. That doesn't change the fact that my qualifications are limited, actually, non-existent. I do the best I can, like most of us, and am fortunate, masha'allah to have access to some very knowledgeable people when I am unsure of something. Still, neither one of us is qualified to make a judgment about the particulars of her situation. Allah tells us in the Qur'an to ask those who know, when we don't. I prefer to leave it at that. " Ok. You're right. Who am I to judge when I'm not in her situation? And surely I'm no scholar and hopefully I didn't bring myself to make you think that I thought I was as knowledgable as them. Not even close. And before I act on something I do seek advice from our Imam just to make sure I'm going to do the right thing. Sometimes, I'm wrong in my judgements of what the Shari'ah says or what it should say. I'm sometimes annoying like that...ok...all the time I'm annoying like that. My 2 cents is given out of charity not of spite though. But still the question raises to her motherhood. So she does have to face unfortunate circumstances where may be one day, Allah (SWT) forbids, she might get stabbed trying to help someone else. She can't be a mother if she's dead. Your mother found ways to survive and so did my single mom of 2, but none of them came to risking thier life such as being a police officer. They found ways. As hard as it was for us, they found ways. Sure risks are everywhere and only Allah (SWT) knows and the trust with Him (SWT) is there but like you said, we have to do it ourselves as well. My argument still stands for her motherhood vs. her career. "Actually, it's not always that simple. Certain things are black and white, but there are alot of gray areas in shari'ah. For example in usul al fiqh you have things like maslaha and 'urf which come into play...sometimes a fatwa *does* actually change depending on time and place, or even from individual to individual, depending on their circumstances. Choosing the lesser of two evils, all of these things come into play when a ruling is made." True. true. But the ones made from the Prophet [saw] and are in the Qur'an are black and white. Nothing can be contradicting. They say smoking is mukruh (I think that's the term) where some say it's haram while others say it's just not liked. However, in the Qur'an it says anything that is harmful to your body is haram. Smoking is proven to even kill you therefore it's haram, no question about it. Pork...during the war, many Muslims were forced to eat pork. Their choice...eat pork or die. When it's considered life and death, that's when a haram act is looked upon as a necessity making it lawful. "My point was, if you live and work in the west, and probably increasingly in Muslim countries too, you are eventually going to be faced with a situation on your job, no matter how halal it is on the surface, which isn't permissible. It doesn't make any of those occupations in and of themselves haram." If it is avoidable then yes it does. You don't have to work in the grocery store or banks or help build Casinos. Something that's unaviodable in the West is car insurance so that's when interest becomes ok. As Muslims living on non-Muslim land, we still have to abide by their laws. "Aisha the Prophet's wife fought, yes actually fought with her army, in the battle against Ali and his supporters. of course, this was her ijtihad, her decision, " That is also true. That was the Battle of Jammal. The battle began after the assissination of Umar (RA). Ali (RA) was in a conflict of bringing those who did it to justice or resolving community problems first. Aisha (RA) wanted him to bring those to justice first. When Ali (RA) didn't, that's when they fought. Ye she was the leader of her army, but you have to remember she was not a mother. "but it IS a precedent for women to be in the frontline even with no shortage of male fighters" Check on that some more. There's more to it than just that. Keep it coming. I'd like to read more of your thoughts. :) Take care and Ma-asalaama...... |
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| muslimah853 |
| 08/21/03 at 13:40:24 |
| [slm] Your mother found ways to survive and so did my single mom of 2, but none of them came to risking thier life such as being a police officer. They found ways. I don't know about your mother, but in my mother's case being a police officer simply wasn't an option. She is, in no way, shape, or form, cut out for that sort of work. She hates confrontation, she's not the most aggressive person in the world, she's not very physically active, etc. She wouldn't make it for two hours on the force. But...I don't doubt that if it came to that...she would have taken a closer look at it. Fortunately for her, and us, there was another option. :) Which means, each individual's circumstance is different. Unless I'm gonna cough up the $$ to support her and her kids...what I think of what she's doing is irrelevant. |
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| panjul |
| 08/21/03 at 14:57:05 |
| [slm] a. She ate pork as well before she was Muslim. Should she continue knowing it is wrong? I'm sorry, that's such a bad example. She can very easily substitue beef for pork, and it is one of the things most converts usuallay practice very well. anyway, as far as death is concerned, the lady (God forbid) can have an accident or have a hearth attack, death can come anytime to any of us. I think it's rude to debate over what she should and should not do. Has she told anyone on here her personal details? Show her the same respect that you would to her face. Instead of putting her down and questioning her motherhood, show her some support. I wonder if she came on here and read this, would she have second thoughts about the kind of people she has joined? Excuse me, if I am rude, but I think this debate is absurd. |
| 08/21/03 at 14:57:59 |
| panjul |
| Re: cops in hijab |
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| Trustworthy |
| 08/21/03 at 20:11:24 |
| [slm] Looks like we did offend someone. I apologize Sister, but you shouldn’t look at this as such. It’s more of an education piece that we can all learn from. We’ve already made it known that we didn’t know her other circumstances and that death is inevitable no matter what but we still have to take care. She CHOSE to make her issue PUBLIC and obviously knew of the consequences. But ok, I’ll give another example that is similar to her situation before becoming a Muslim. How about if she was a nurse working in a male clinic? Situations are the same. Single mother of six who is in constant flow of men. Male medicine is all she knows and besides she loves her job b/c she thinks she’s saving lives. And she is. Or she’s a fighter pilot for the US Airforce. She’s risking her life all the time still a single mother of six who is in constant flow of men. Piloting that craft and aiming at targets is all she knows. She loves her job b/c she thinks she’s saving lives. And she is. The main point is she is a Muslimah, single mother of 6. My main concern is her children and we are discussing Muslimahs and Choice of Careers. Make no mistake here, I’m not condemning her for her actions on the hijab issue. I commend her for her courage and bravery. The Department will lose this case using the fact that other States have no problem with their women wearing head scarves. I’ve seen officers wearing winter scarves around their necks. I’m sure the reason why they are fighting it is not b/c it’s a hazard. But b/c it represents that they support Islam hence terrorism. It’s not about telling her what to do. There’s no disrespect. If she was in front of me, I’d tell her the same thing. Seek knowledge about her choice of career. Here's something that's taken from an Islamic Knowledge Database: Can women take part in jihaad along with men? What about women working in the women’s sections of the security services? Answer: Praise be to Allaah. Jihaad by the sword and with other weapons is not obligatory on women. It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah said: “I said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, do women have to do any kind of jihaad?’ he said, ‘Yes, jihaad in which there is no fighting – Hajj and ‘Umrah.’” – Narrated by Imaam Ahmad, 24794). Because men are responsible for defending women. Hence it is not permissible to draft them into the army like men, because of the bad consequences that result from that. The state of affairs in countries which have allowed that clearly demonstrate the harmful effects to which this leads. But if the army needs nurses to tend the soldiers’ wounds and there are women who can do this well, then their services may be used, so long as due attention is paid to the guidelines of sharee’ah, and proper Islamic etiquette is observed. Similarly, it is not permissible for women to work in the police and other security organizations if this work has to do with men. If, however, it has to do with women, such as a women’s division in the police force to deal with women, or supervision of women prisoners in jails, or inspecting women in airports, and so on, then this is permissible and may indeed be necessary. They should be employed in such cases so that women will not be forced to mix with men and uncover themselves in front of them. Wilaayat al-Mar’ah fi’l-Fiqh al-Islamiyyah, p. 688 (www.islam-qa.com) I hope there is a better understanding of what this is all about which is not her in particular but Muslimahs in general. Take care and Ma-asalaama…. |
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| jannah |
| 08/22/03 at 01:46:04 |
| [slm] For some reason this whole thread reminds me of this comedy satire film some Muslims made called KOBS. similar situation except it's sorta reverse here, we're the kobs i think.. callin a cop out.. check it out: Kobs (193 MEGS) : http://www.ds-films.com/Kobs.wmv Kobs Trailer (10 MEGS): http://www.ds-films.com/Kobs%20Trailer.wmv |
| 08/22/03 at 01:46:57 |
| jannah |
| Re: cops in hijab |
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| UmmWafi |
| 08/22/03 at 02:13:01 |
| [slm] This whole discussion reminded me of a case I onc handled. There was a lady who is married with children. Husband suffered from a stroke and was bedridden. Children all of schoolgoing age. She worked but hospital bills and medical bills and educational expenses and living expenses were mounting. She got heavily into debt because husband needed surgery for diabetic complications. In short she became a social escort to make ends meet. When I first met her she couldn't look me in the face because of shame. I held her hand and told her that I totally respect her as a person. See, I feel that as long as we don't walk the path a person does and as long as we don't carry his/her burden, we shouldn't criticise that person. Having an opinion of what u think is right or wrong is truly ok but since none of us know the desperation SHE felt (not any other mothers) being the sole breadwinner of six children, I seriously wonder if we should be talking abt her ears..................... Wassalam |
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| WhiteSomali |
| 08/22/03 at 14:04:08 |
| [slm] ;D I fully agree wit Sis UmmWafi and anyone else who posted with that opinion. Critisizing your sister hasn't done you or her any good. Now imagine if instead a critisizing her, you were making dua for her, both you and her would be better off insha Allah. May Allah guide and have mercy on all a us, the whole Ummah, and may he strengthen us as a community and a family. [slm] |
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| theOriginal |
| 08/22/03 at 16:21:03 |
| [slm] Wow critics galore. MashaAllah, I think it's great...Muslims need to get involved in things like the police force...the fact that she's a Muslim WOMAN is even better. Kind of like the Kung Fu hijaabi. heh. Wasalaam. |
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| BroHanif |
| 08/24/03 at 18:27:36 |
| Salaams, What happened to the Ummah that looked out for each other i.e the community? What happened to words of kindness? What happened to actions that were such that we could win their hearts and minds? Single Moms have it the worst, and I pray to Allah that none of you hear the storys that I've heard where my wife has worked as a womans development officer. It truly wrenches your heart out and makes even a grown man cry. Lets be there for each other. Salaams Hanif |
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| Trustworthy |
| 08/25/03 at 17:44:07 |
| [slm] Yikes! Dang. May be I should find a small hole, bend over, and put my head in it so that each of you can take turns beating me with the paddle. :'( After the hadith, I’d thought that you guys would at least understand what I was trying to say. I guess I went about this the wrong way. I should’ve approached it differently. Be a little less heartless to her situation. When I read the article, though the main objective was her hijab, I saw “Single mother of 6. Police officer. Philly. Converted Muslim.” Y’know, I still see no positive in that. Howeer, I do see the positiveness in the article which is she’s a converted Muslimah fighting for justice for all Muslimahs. I should’ve emphasized the positive more and re-reading the posts, I can see why you all think that this discussion/debate of her career is irrelevant. Nonetheless, this is a discusiion/debate and nothing more. I’m not bashing her as a person or as a mother. This is a discussion/debate on whether Muslimahs can or can’t, should or shouldn’t be a police officer or any careers relative to that even if she was in it before she converted. There was no issue on whether she is a good mother or what not. I didn’t question her abilities. There was no issue about her in particular at all. It was Muslimahs in general. Her situation was what triggered this debate. That’s it. I’m also not retaliating here and I hope you don’t take my tone to that level. I’m just explaining again, so that there is no misunderstanding. I do pray for her children as well as her in that she finds success in all of these matters. What born Muslimah would have that much passion to fight for her right to wear hijab except for in Turkey. Most of are lucky that we don’t have to deal with things. Who knows, may be we can’t deal with it. I know of one Muslimah who claims that she refused a State job b/c they said she couldn’t wear her hijab which is a false claim b/c I and other State workers who are Muslimahs are living proof that that is false. I love to read stories like hers. They’re inspiring. Y’know it’s funny, my husband said to me the other day that I’m monotone in voice, looks, movement, action, and emotion. No matter what the situation, I’m the same. It’s so bad that he even said if the world came to an end, my attitude about life would just be the same. I’d still say Al-hamdulillah with a nonchalant smile. My colleagues send me to the worse customers b/c I can tell them straight out, we can’t recover your very important document from the crashed hard drive cause them yelling at me has no affect or effect on the situation. They still won’t be able to get what they want. I guess life experiences has made me this way. But life is life. If you can’t change it…then you can’t change it. Face it, deal with it, let it go cause Allahu Alim. But some things you can change or at least try to. You don’t know if you don’t go. And that’s that I was trying to say this time about her and Muslimahs in general as well. Being a police officer is not the best thing for her or her children for lots of reasons. She should at least try to change that situation. She’s a strong person and we should all give her our support. And if change is not possible, Allahu Alim, then we should still give her our support. I thought that even explaining a few times that it’s not about her in particular and giving the hadith about the women’s workforce, would end the criticism. Eh….oh well. Sorry I came off on the wrong foot. I mean I really do admire and support the Sister. So you guys really approve of a Muslimah being a full pledge police officer? Well….you all take great care now. I probably won’t post again until after ISNA. If something happens, you all forgive me please if I’ve wronged you or said something to hurt you. It was unintentional. This is all in good nature and sometimes I go overboard. I’m really a nice person. Still I hope I find you in excellent health if and when I return, insha-Allah. The best from Allah….Ameen. Ma-asalaama….. :-* |
| Re: cops in hijab |
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| theOriginal |
| 08/25/03 at 18:33:46 |
| [slm] lol sis Trustworthy...I don't think anyone was attacking you. Masha Allah you picked out a detail none of us did. I would have been like "Go Girl" all the way, but you made me think twice about it. Yes, there are professions which Muslim women should stay away from. Perhaps a police officer is one of those. Maybe. I know you're a nice person...I can smell it 5000 miles away :) See you at ISNA, maybe. Insha Allah Wasalaam. |
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| Trustworthy |
| 08/26/03 at 19:27:05 |
| [slm] Jazakhullahu Khairun JustOne. You are sweet. I hope we do meet at ISNA, insha-Allah. Go share some cheesecake or something. :-[ Take great care. Ma-asalaama.... |
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