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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| Shahida |
| 08/18/03 at 07:22:03 |
| [slm] Interesting discussion I had with some sisters around the world... In your country/culture, who pays for what in the wedding? And what exactly is there to pay for? Example from South Africa: (and btw *not* the way I will be doing things, inshaAllah) Engagements: Girl's family organises the engagement *party*...all the boy's family brings are the engagement jewelry...usually a chain set, depending on the particular tribe, which for me is like a Hindu "mangal sutra" ::) note: this is *not* a so-called "arab" engagement party, where the actual Nikaa7 is performed, but a modern day "western" engagement, before, during and after which the couple are still not "halaal" for each other... ::) Wedding : Girl's family pays for EVERYTHING, including food and so on...hall, decorating, etc...usually the couple and bridesmaids etc etc get to sit on a stage in front of everyone... ::) but thats just an aside, sowwy... Walima: This the boy's family pays for. Everyone they couldnt invite to the wedding party, gets an invite to the Walima... So how does it work where you are from? Wasalam Shahida :-) |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| timbuktu |
| 08/19/03 at 01:58:22 |
| [slm] pretty much the same as u have described, perhaps worse. the worst of Hindu & Western customs. I do not understand bringing in the bride who walks up a lengthy walk to the stage, where everyone gets to inspect her (beautified) looks. & this happens in many otherwise "shariati" households as well. in my community though, nikah is usually in the mosque, where most of these bida'a cannot take place, but ppl make up for it at their homes & hotels. & the women: are the worst. I don't approve of my son's choice, but i will have to accept because of these women in my house. i need advice: When my children get married, which may be starting in a couple of years. i know my wife & sisters will say " this is the custom, why do you want to be the odd one out, etc., etc., & what happened at your wedding (well, i had nothong to do with any bid'aa that took place then), blah, blah, blah ........ my Q: i can't get them to obey me in this, short of walking out. what do i do? & there are no hijabi ladies in my circle. the gathering may be separated slightly, but stage & the lot of bida1a will be there because "everyone does it". |
| 08/19/03 at 02:24:03 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| Halima |
| 08/19/03 at 03:16:23 |
| Somali Culture: [color=Orange]In the old days of arranged marriages:[/color] The boy's family approaches the girl's family and asks for her hand in marriage. No consultation with the lady concerned. And she has no say whatsoever but will have to accept whatever her parents decide. Then the family of the boy starts the marriage arrangements, dowry wise once the family of the girl has accepted the marriage proposal. Dowry is payment of either cash or livestock depending on what and how much the lady's family has laid down (Somalis are nomadic pastorolalists and business people). The boys family also has to buy the jewelery for the girl in terms sets of gold and her clothing. During the nikah period, the boy's family also pays something known as "gabati" which is money distributed to the girls family members who are present at the nikah. The boys family also provides the home where they are going to live. And finally, the boys family foots the bills for the wedding ceremony which is elaborate. All that the girls family contributes is the house decorations, sets of cultery and dishes, bedsheets and curtains all of which have been passed down from generation to generation, mainly of first born girls, from mother to daughter but also other daughters get their share too. And these are valueable items. [color=Purple]Modern day marriages:[/color] The difference here is the girl and boy meet first and if they decide they like each other enough to want marriage, she asks the boy to approach her family. Then the same tradition is carried out with the boy and his family paying for everything again. Sometimes, the nikah and the wedding ceremonies are combined while other people opt for the nikah as the only ceremony necessary. But, these days, those who want to skip the whole process of tradition and what it entails just decide to approach a sheikh who perfoms the nikah whithout involving both families at all. The families learn about it when it is a done deal. No payment of dowry but may be just something to the parents just to appease them and ask for their blessings. Call me old fashioned but I like it when family members are consulted first. They do not necessarily not have to like it. But fait accompli seems taste less and disrepectful to me. So, when all is said and done, it is the boy's family that pays. Shukran. Halima |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| jannah |
| 08/19/03 at 03:51:32 |
| [wlm] Well i think it's really subject to both their incomes and their family incomes and everything. So it widely varies....and circumstances and things change.. but the usual we've seen here among friends and family is: Engagement/Mangni: Very few people have engagement parties unless the wedding is a long way away like a year or something. Usually the groom side buys a ring or gold bracelets/jewelery set and her side gives him a watch and set of clothes or something. This is usually done at the bride's home, so her side pays for the party part. Henna/Mehndi: Pre wedding party to put the henna on the bride, usually sisters only get together.. last chance to have fun before she gets married :) Bride's side pays for everything. [There's this odd tradition of displaying everything the groom's side and her parents gave her on silver platters and stuff at the henna for everyone to see!?] Nikah/Wedding: This is also usually done at the bride's home so her side pays for the actual foo`, hall, invitations, etc. The bride's side usually buys him his wedding outfit and probably another watch. [sigh is there anything else to get guys?] The groom's side buys her the wedding band, some dresses and some gold jewelry, usually a set or two. [Someone told me that it was their tradition to buy the bride 21 new sets of clothes :o ! but the usual i've seen is the nikah, walimah and a few other less fancy but nice type things that she could wear to things after she's married] Rukhsati: A small party/reception when the bride 'leaves' to go live with her new husband. This one the bride's side pays for usually. Waleemah: Usually done after the marriage has taken place and she's now living with the husband. His side pays for the reception, food, etc and she usually wears everything the groom's side gave her. The groom's side invites friends and relatives to share their happiness over the marriage. Sometimes especially in Arab weddings all the expenses will just be split down the middle. Sometimes one or both can't afford all the fineries so it also really depends. |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| jannah |
| 08/19/03 at 03:55:15 |
| d'oh I should of just copy/pasted this ---------------------------------- Indian Muslim Wedding MUSLIM WEDDING Muslim weddings have a place of their own when it comes to uniqueness and traditionalism. Among Muslims, it is the family of the groom-to-be which searches for a suitable bride. Mangni or Engagement Ceremony In this ceremony, the exchange of rings takes place between the boy and the girl. The outfit worn by the girl is provided by the boy's family. The actual ring ceremony takes place with the serving of sweetmeats like peda to celebrate the auspicious occasion. The Manjha Ceremony In this ceremony, the girl is anointed with turmeric paste. The haldi lapetan ceremony takes place at the girl's house one or two days before the wedding day. The haldi and chameli oil are provided by the boy's family. Only unmarried girls apply haldi on the bride-to-be. A symbolic token in the form of a spot of the heena is put on the groom too by the girl's cousins. The girl's attire: The girl limits herself to yellow clothes, the colour of turmeric, and does not wear any jewellery. After this ceremony, she does not move out of her house or change her clothes till the wedding day. The musical night (at the girl's place): This festivity takes place one night before the wedding. There is natural gaiety and rejoicing accompanied by traditional songs sung to the beat of the dholak. The wedding day The baraat (or the procession of friends and relatives accompanying the groom) starts from the groom's place and moves towards the wedding venue, with the groom seated on a horse or in a car. A shamiana is pitched if no concrete covered area is available for conducting the wedding ceremonies. The arrival of the groom is accompanied by the beating of drums playing of musical instruments. Dancing rhythmically to add to the gaiety around. On arrival, the groom and the brother of the bride exchange a glass of sharbet (or juice) and money. The saalis (or the sisters of the bride) welcome the guests by playfully hitting them with a phoolon ki chadi or a stick wrapped around with flowers. The wedding attire It is customary for the boy's family to send the wedding attire, jewellery and cosmetics for the girl. She usually wears the outfit as per the norms of the state she hails from; for instance, a gharara or a zari sari or salwar kameez. The groom normally wears a sherwani or an achkan. Both the bride and the groom don a sehra or a veil of flowers around their foreheads. The wedding Ceremony or Nikaah Traditionally, the men and women have to be seated in separate rooms or have a purdah (or curtain) separating them. The amount of meher or gift is decided upon by the elders of the two families. (The meher is the compulsory amount of money given to the bride's family by the groom's family.) It is either fixed at an affordable price for the boy or fixed according to traditions in their gharana or amily. Next, the uakeel or an eminent person with two male persons as witnesses and the maulvi or the officiating priest ask the girl personally if she is happy with the arrangement and whether she agrees to marry the groom. The boy'' asked the same question. In case of assent from boy, the maulvi then makes the boy read a selected piece of the Quran, the holy book of the Muslims. The nikaahnama: This is a documents wherein the marriage is registered. First, the groom and the two witnesses sign and later the bride does so. The Accompanying Ceremonies (a) After the nikaah the groom is taken to the zenana (ladies' section). At the threshold, he gives money and gifts to the sisters of the bride. The groom receives the blessings of the elder women and offers them his salaam or salutations. (b) Dinner is served separately to the ladies and the gentleman. The family of the boy is given a feast separately. (c) After dinner for the first time, The groom and the bride are seated together and a dupatta is used to cover their heads while the maulvi makes them read some prayers. (d) Aarsimashaf: The Holy Queen is kept in between the newly weds and they are allowed to see each other only through reflection by mirrors. (e) Misri, dried dates and batasha are distributed to the guests. The dried dates have a religious significance. (f) A half-eaten laddoo (a sweetmeat) is given to the girl by her cousins. (g) The groom stays overnight in a separate room at the girl's house with a younger brother. In the morning, he is given clothes, money and fifts by the bride's parents. (h) The relatives of the boy come to accompany the bridal couple to their home in the afternoon. Rukhsat (or farewell) The father of the bride gives her hand to her husband and asks him to protect her always. The last farewells are said and the bride departs for her husband's house by car or palki (palanquin). The bride's first entrance The bride first enters her new home under the cover of the quran held by her mother-in-law and the groom follows. Chauthi The bride is taken back to her parents' place on the fourth day after the wedding. Valeema or the reception The husband brings back his wife and her family to attend the reception hosted by his family. Thus, the two families unite to become one. |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| Nomi |
| 08/19/03 at 08:07:27 |
| [slm] A perfectly islamic marriage (everything below is 100 % segregated, idealy) Engagement (optional) [i] 1] NO ma'yoon 2] NO mehndi [/i] ============= 3] YES Nikah 4] YES Ruksati ============= [i] 5] NO doodh pela-ee 6] NO juta chupai, NO display of dowry to the WHOLE world [/i] ============= 7] YES Walima ============= [i] 8] NO maklawa [/i] ends. Isn't this how Ali [radiallah-anhu] and Fatima [radiallah-anha] got married ? But my own family will be the hurdle in doing so but no worries inshAllah, i'll fix my hip-hop cousins (male) soon as i've got quite some time on my hands :) [slm] Asim Zafar. PS: "mangal sut'rr" !!! why do i feel so uncomfortable with the word !!! |
| 08/19/03 at 09:05:12 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| BrKhalid |
| 08/19/03 at 08:41:24 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) I think this is where the *Marriage* v *Wedding* debate kicks in ;-) |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| jannah |
| 08/19/03 at 14:04:24 |
| [slm] Again everyone has traditions and culture, as long as they are not anti-Islamic or haram it is fine for them to fulfill those traditions. I have no idea what those 'mayon' etc things are but it's probably better to go to a scholar specifically and explain the tradition to see if there's anything that is unislamic in it. But really, I see nothing wrong with say for instance a mehndi. People like to argue that we're copying "hindu tradition" and therefore all thse things are haram, but really unless its haram there's nothing wrong with them. And again seems we're into the concept of a cultural sunnah... sure someone can give the bride an iron ring and a pot and the father can pay for the waleemah which is how ali and fatima's wedding was, but does that make your wedding "100% islamic"?? There are other ways that are 100% Islamic too. People make Islam too hard. There is alot of variety among what is permissible. This is why there are Muslims all over the world from China to Africa to Alaska who are able to practice their deen without hardship. Allah did not make it so narrow as we sometimes do. Islam was not meant for the Arabs, nor was it meant the cultural traditions of the time be forced upon the rest of the world and rest of the times. It's interesting that norms of tradition in an area are also used as a source of law in Islam. I think that should tell us something. |
| 08/19/03 at 14:11:17 |
| jannah |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| se7en |
| 08/19/03 at 14:36:53 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah, I asked some questions about wedding practices to a student of knowledge recently and she gave me some really beneficial and interesting answers, alhamdulillah. She made the distinction for me between practices that are permissible - those that are not in imitation of another culture or tradition's *deen*- and those that are prohibited - those that are in emulation of another religious tradition. For example, wearing 'western' clothing like a skirt and loose top for sisters is not 'imitating the kuffar' in the prohibited sense, because it is not in emulation of a religious act - but wearing a cross or dressing similar to a nun *is* a prohibited type of imitation, because those actions are related to their deen. She went on to talk about why Rasulullah [saw] exhorted his followers to grow their beards and trim their moustaches, to be distinct from the pagan Arabs who shaved their beards *religiously*, as that was part of their faith. The Shari'ah is beautiful in that it allows for different cultural traditions to be expressed as long as they are in concordance with the deen. It's not the case that an 'Islamic' wedding is in the masjid with two witnesses and the Qadi and that's it, and anything other than that is 'unIslamic'. w'Allahu a'lam. A great program to listen to, to get a better understanding of the Shari'ah and how it interplays with regional custom and varying cultures is Dr. Ingrid Mattson's interview on Window on Islam. You can check it out at: http://www.WindowOnIslam.com Dr. Mattson is a professor of Islamic studies, has a PhD in Islamic Law, and is Vice President of ISNA. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah :-) |
| 08/19/03 at 14:39:30 |
| se7en |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| Nomi |
| 08/19/03 at 14:53:56 |
| [slm] With all due respect sis jannah, IMHO if we talk about people of indo-pak origin or those who are influenced by it, they (we, my family 2) try to defend "Mehndi", but you see following that tradition makes people borrow many more things e.g. "mayoo'n" (the bride wears a yellow dress for 7 days and is kinda bound to stay at home); "doodh pela'ee", "juta chupae" (females from bride's side do it with the groom); "maklawa" and recently i even saw "holee" (not playing it but those designs on the floor) at my friend's wedding!!! And arn't we told in Qur'an that best example for us is in the sunnah! [i]In so many Hadith Rasulullah (SAW) ordered us to go against the ways of Kuffar and do opposite to them As Rasulullah (SAW) said, "Whoever imitaes a people becomes one of them." (Sahih Abu Dawud). So if we chose the ethics, moral values life style and dress code of the kuffar then this hadith will pertain to us. "Abu Musa Ash'ari (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) relates that Rasulullah (SAW) said "A person will be considered to be of those people whom he loves." (Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim). We should consider who it is that we love. And if we truly love Rasulullah (SAW) then we should follow his Sunnah in our morals, dealing, manners, dress code, eating, sleeping and everything else in our twenty four hour life. Not to say that we have to ride camels because cars were not invented in the time of Rasulullah (SAW) but in the things that we can we should try to emulate the sunnah way of life as much as we can[/i] NOTE: The italic part is taken from http://www.zawaj.com/articles/sunna_clothes.html Islam indeed is easy as we are asked to follow (kind of) cerelac-to-the-kid strategy with new converts. and Allah knows best [slm] Asim Zafar |
| 08/19/03 at 15:04:47 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| jannah |
| 08/19/03 at 17:30:02 |
| [wlm] A related thread is in the Naseeha about "Eating by Hand". I don't think I have the energy to write a treatise on this subject. Two excellent books that touch upon these topics have been written by Sh. Qaradawi. He's just so clear and revolutionary and brilliant at the same time about the problems we have in the ummah and how they're related to how we think and do things. How we just don't understand some Islamic concepts and end up going to extremes in alot of issues 'in the name of' being a better muslim or islam. [Extreme is not being a better Muslim and it's just as detrimental to Islam as someone on the other end of the spectrum.] They're online but hard to read in this format. Would recommend getting the books: [url=http://www.wponline.org/vil/Books/Q_RE/index.htm]Islamic Awakening between Rejection and Extremism [/url] [url=http://www.wponline.org/vil/Books/Q_Priorities/index.htm] Priorities of The Islamic Movement in The Coming Phase[/url] |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 08/19/03 at 22:48:43 |
| [slm] I have to say at the outset that I have not read this entire thread. However, it should not make a difference insha Allah as far as my post is concerned. What I wanted to do is just give my two cents, insha Allah, as someone who has been blessed by Allah (swt) to have spent an equal amount of time both in the East and the West. I think a lot of times, Muslims living in the East simply neglect the fact that the Muslims living in the West are living in completely different circumstances, and vice versa. Therefore, the perspectives are different, the experiences are different, and thus what is good for one side may be bad for the other, or vice versa, *or* it may be the same. Often times, when the Muslims from the subcontinent talk about weddings, and mention terms like "mehndi", "mayoon", etc, the connotations of those terms are completely different from what is in the mind of a Muslim raised in the west. Similarly, when a Muslim from the West talks about these terms with a Muslim from the East, what is understood by the Eastern Muslim is completely different from what is meant by the Western Muslim. What is necessary, first and foremost, is to *realize* that this difference exists, before one comes to the conclusion that "these people just don't get it" or "what kind of Islam are these people preaching?" To the Muslims in the East, I say: The striving Muslims born in the West have never seen a mehndi as you've seen it. They've never seen a mayoon as you've seen it. To them, mehndi is an event where a bunch of sisters get together, put mehndi on each other, and have some halal fun [with some songs with no musical instruments, or with instruments that are allowed by some scholars for such events, food, dressing up in front of each other, without any male presence as to avoid mixing, etc]. To them, having a brother take the shoes of the groom and then demand some money for him before returning them to him is a means of entertainment which is the essence of any happy occasion. To them, sending gifts by either famliy to the other and drinking sherbet and what not are sweet things (no pun intended) that only increase the love and bonds between the couple and their families, all of which have an asl [origin] in the Seerah of the Prophet [saw]. None of these things have anything to do, in their mind, with imitating disbelievers, for they never came in contact with these disbelievers and one cannot imitate someone he has never seen or met. So to them, it is ill-placed to condemn such marriages, especially if one has the financial ability to organize something fancy like that, because no scholar worth the name - neither Rasulullah [saw] - *forbade* spending a lot of money on things that are permissible. What is forbidden is not to give zakaah and spending on that which is haraam. And besides, Muslims in the West - more often than not - are more well off financially than their brothers and sisters in the West, thus being more able to have a fancy wedding with lots of halal fun. To the striving Muslims in the West, I say: If you were a striving Muslim who lived in the East, you would *hate* having a mehndi, mayoon, chauthee, etc for your own wedding. And you would hate it whenever and wherever you saw it. And you would be praiseworthy for doing so. For one thing, no scholar worth the name exists in the East who has condoned these practices as they are practiced in the East. They all condemn it, and some are harsher and more outspoken than others. Secondly, you would have seen with your own eyes thr baggage that these ceremonies *always* (note, I did not say "almost always") come with: excessive spending, clearly haraam and pagan practices (haram music [yes, I know the opinion of Ibn Hazm, and he would be the first to call that music haram], combined dancing, flirting, and mixing in general, exposing of women's awrah and zeenah [i.e. women dressed in ways that if we took pictures of it and posted it on this board, they would be deleted by all moderators and admins with a consensus]), financial hardship for both families, etc. After having witnessed such things with your own eyes, and having witnessed the ills and suffering that it has created within your own family, and after reading article after article and listening to lecture after lecture from every aalim worth the name condemning such practices, you would hate the act. And you would yearn to have a simple(r) wedding, one that is much closer in essence to that of the Prophet [saw] and his companions - with no excesses, no hardships, no pagan practices, and no haraam activities. You would want it for yourself, and you would want it for everyone that you love, for a believer loves for his brother what he loves for himself. It is not the case that either side is wrong. If I write a "6" on a sheet of paper sitting in front of you, it reads a "six" to you from your side. But a person sitting across from you reads it a "nine." Who is right? Who is wrong? Neither. It's a different point of view, based on the position (i.e. situation, circumstances and experiences) of the person. What is most important in *any* matter, and especially in a wedding, is to make sure you don't do anything that would displease Allah (awj) and His Rasul [saw]. The reason I say it is [i]especially[/i] important in a wedding is because this is a turning point in your life. With this event, you seek to improve yourself. You seek to perfect half of your Deen. You seek to start a journey, together with your spouse, in pursuit of your Lord's Pleasure. And how can you start that journey when the very first thing that you do is disobey him at the wedding itself!? A couple which is most sincere in marrying each other for the right reasons - the reasons I mentioned above - would be meticulous in making sure nothing "goes wrong" in the wedding. That it is an act which is embellished with things that would please the Creator. And you embellish something by both ornamenting it with jewels and fragrances *and* removing from it foul things and odor. As long as both the man and the woman do that, insha Allah their marriage would be an Islamic marriage, and a marriage which would push them forward in their journey of attaining uboodiyyah of Allah [awj]. Wallahu ta'ala a'lam. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. |
| 08/20/03 at 00:06:22 |
| Abu_Hamza |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| Nomi |
| 08/20/03 at 08:50:41 |
| [slm] One thing i dont like about the internet is that our words *sometimes* get interpreted the wrong way, so let me first clarify one thing here and i'll reiterate it at the end 2. I really really like you guys and am inspired by your values and all, never ever thought of anyone in here low in deen or anything. Secondly, this debate reminds me the one that my family/cousins and i have among us once in a while and i dont think of you guys as some strangers over the internet but rather a bunch of guys who i'm attached to, like an e-family :) okay now i'll cut the "jazbatee batain" and mention some of my concerns, and who knows you people might end up defending the point of view of 98% of my family members (real ones) :) sis jannah wrote [quote] we just don't understand some Islamic concepts and end up going to extremes in alot of issues 'in the name of' being a better muslim or islam. [Extreme is not being a better Muslim and it's just as detrimental to Islam as someone on the other end of the spectrum.] [/quote] I'll just smile for this text as i dont really get at whom it is targetted and consider that i'm not being labeled with the "e" word :) Abu_Hamza wrote [quote] The striving Muslims born in the West have never seen a mehndi as you've seen it. They've never seen a mayoon as you've seen it. [/quote] Now bro Abu_Hamza, are you sure? Okay lets look into a scenario. They've got muslim friends and communities there and not all of them are striving Muslims, a friends of their's or someone in the community having indo-pak background is getting married, they attend it and hence *know* whats it like. There may be those who are *strick* or may be strong enough (debateable) to boycott such mix mehndi's but the reason they are boycotting is because they *know* "how its like", right? [quote] Before one comes to the conclusion that "these people just don't get it" or "what kind of Islam are these people preaching?" [/quote] I didn't come to that conclussion, how can i as i respect you guys so much. [quote] <told to muslims of west> If you were a striving Muslim who lived in the East, you would *hate* having a mehndi, mayoon, chauthee, etc for your own wedding. And you would hate it whenever and wherever you saw it. And you would be praiseworthy for doing so. [/quote] Lets suppose i fail to convince my family that theres not going to be any mehndi and mayoon at my wedding, what do you think that mehndi would be like? mix? I assure you ppl thats (mix) something which is *never* going to happen and *many* practicing muslims here do organize these mehndi's so hows this segregated function (with halal fun) any different from the one that they have in the west? ======== Whatever is jotted down above is just for clarity purposes. The way this function is held by the *striving* Muslims of either east or west is just the same i.e. segregated with halal fun. But the question is whether this function worths it or not!! so the questions remain... 1] Arn't we told in Qur'an that best example for us is in the sunnah ? 2] Isn't this how Ali [radiallah-anhu] and Fatima [radiallah-anha] got married ? [quote] And how can you start that journey when the very first thing that you do is disobey him at the wedding itself!? [/quote] So true mashAllah, thats what i tell my friends whenever someone's marriage is ON... and my friends are getting married fast :P. FOUR already mashAllah. [slm] |
| 08/20/03 at 14:26:55 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| faisalsb |
| 08/20/03 at 10:10:51 |
| [slm] Mashallah I am inspired from the knowledge of all the young people on the board. It seems everyone has his/her own point of view about the topic. I don't see any problem in difference in opinion as long as it's based on Quran and Sunnah and intention behind it is to follow Islam in better way instead of our own desires. When ever I get in to any such confusing topic following hadith help me to get out of it. Volume 1, Book 2, Number 49: Narrated An-Nu'man bin Bashir: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'Both legal and illegal things are evident but in between them there are doubtful (suspicious) things and most of the people have no knowledge about them. So whoever saves himself from these suspicious things saves his religion and his honor. And whoever indulges in these suspicious things is like a shepherd who grazes (his animals) near the Hima (private pasture) of someone else and at any moment he is liable to get in it. (O people!) Beware! Every king has a Hima and the Hima of Allah on the earth is His illegal (forbidden) things. Beware! There is a piece of flesh in the body if it becomes good (reformed) the whole body becomes good but if it gets spoilt the whole body gets spoilt and that is the heart. I think there was a saint or some scholar when he was offered a fruit to eat he refused to eat. The host asked is it haram? He said NO it's not haram but I don't know how Holy Prophet [saw] ate it so it's better for me not to eat instead of not following the Sunnah regarding eating it. The point what I am trying to make is that momin's all life is Ibadaa and his all actions are rewarded. Either he is eating, working, sleeping, travelling, joking, having fun, go to toilet, sleep with his wife, do busines breifly all of his actions are considered Ibadaa if he is doing how he is supposed to do according to Sunnah. So if someone feels and think all those cultural or traditional things also comes in the same category then I don't think there is any problem in that. But if the person who is doing those things himself have feeling it MIGHT be against or at least not according to sunnah. Then isn't it better we try to introduce NEW traditions which are more compatible to our deen? For instance once I was reading biography of Moulana Madudi and I came to know that he had tradition in his family that they used to celebrate "Bismilla" of each child born in his family. That was the celebration when the child start reading Quran and when he read "Bismilla" first time. On the other hand we have birthday parties without getting into the discussion either it's HARAM or HALAL but certianly it's not based on Quran and Sunnah .... Walla hu Alam So that's my point of view and for sure I am not going to CONDEMN anyone who is not agreed with me. |
| 08/20/03 at 10:31:50 |
| faisalsb |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
|---|
| jannah |
| 08/20/03 at 14:50:29 |
| [wlm] I think the point when it comes down to it is that eating with your hands, sleeping on the floor, doing something cultural at your wedding (within the bounds of islam) are all Mubah. Permissible. Mubah means you are not rewarded for doing them nor are you punished for not doing them. UNLESS and this is the key thing -- you have some special intention in eating with your hands, like you want to be humble the way the prophet [saw] was to make yourself a better Muslim or something like that. And like the brother mentioned if you have this good intention of wanting to do everything for Allah's sake and following His commands this is considered ibadah and you'll be rewarded for it... eating regularly, sleeping normally, going to work, helping out around the house, cooking for your family, AND even fulfilling a tradition as long as it doesn't go against Islam, everything etc. But MY point is that we shouldn't push some [i]permissible[/i] things to be what is rewardable or better and say that other [i]permissible[/i] things are not. The main reason given "Oh this is the sunnah bro/sis" --because these are not legislative sunnahs, these are only cultural norms or actions of the time... This is a good article on the Sunnah I thought. The main gist of it being that the true followers of Muhammad [saw] follow his actions the way he categorized them, what is fard is done, what is haram is avoided, what is recommended is asipired to, what is mubah permissible is taken OR left. But what is not done is taking a mubah and making it into a mandub and so on. ------------------------------------- The Authority of Sunnah As the Ummah continues on the path of revival, a growing number of Muslims have begun to realise that after decades of fumbling through various possibilities thrown at them by the Kuffar, Islam still remains as the only correct solution to their problems. However, many faulty concepts and twisted facts still obstruct the Islamic mentality and sentiments from becoming crystallised. Perhaps the only obstacle remaining between Muslims and their full realisation of Islam remains in certain distorted concepts. The Muslim Ummah must utilise the intellectual struggle against the faulty ideas and view this as vital to its revival. They must commit themselves to correct the erroneous ideas and replace them with clear, well-defined concepts. The notion that the Qur’an provides the sole source of legislation and the Sunnah fulfilling a secondary, supportive role that supplements the total message, still remains as a common misconception among many. In fact, the Sunnah constitutes a primary source on an equal footing as the Qur’an itself. In many ayat, the Qur’an mentions repeatedly the obedience to the Prophet (saw) side by side with the obedience to Allah (swt): "It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error" [Qur'an, al-Ahzab 33:36] "Say (O Muhammad), Obey Allah and His Messenger. But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers" [Qur'an, Ali-Imran 3:32] "And Obey Allah and His Messenger that you may attain mercy" [Qur'an, Ali-Imran 3:32] "O you who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and those of you who are in authority. If you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. This is better and more suitable for final determination" [Qur'an, an-Nisa’a’ 4:59] "...and whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger will be admitted to Gardens under which rivers flow, to abide therein, and that will be the great success" [Qur'an, an-Nisa’a’ 4:13] "And whoso obeys Allah and the Messenger, then they will be in the company of those on whom Allah has bestowed His Grace, of the Prophets, the Siddiqun, the martyrs, and the righteous.." [Qur'an, an-Nisa’a’ 4:69] Consequently, Muslims must reject any thoughts or suggestions that attempt to de-emphasise and marginalise the Sunnah or categorise it as a supplement to, and not an integral component of, the Message of Islam. To emphasise the authority of the Sunnah, the Qur’an has mentioned the disobedience to the Prophet (saw) as equal to the disobedience to Allah (swt): "And whosoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger and transgresses His limits, He will cast him into the Fire, to abide therein; and he shall have a disgraceful torment" [Qur'an, An-Nisa’a’ 4:14] "...and whosoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, then verily, for him is the Fire of Hell, he shall dwell therein forever" [Qur'an, al-Jinn 72:23] "And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger after the Right Path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers’ way, we shall keep in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell - what an evil destination" [Qur'an, an-Nisa’a’ 4:115] "...that whoever opposes and shows hostility to Allah and His Messenger, certainly for him will be the Fire of Hell to abide therein. That is extreme disgrace" [Qur'an, at-Tauba’ 9:63] "On that day those who disobeyed the Messenger will wish that they were buried in the earth, but they will never be able to hide a single fact from Allah" [Qur'an, an-Nisa’a’ 4:42] After reflecting upon these ayat, no Muslim should look upon the Sunnah with any less emphasis than the Qur’an, because Allah (swt) states clearly that the authority of the Messenger constitutes a component of the revelation itself. Nowhere in the Qur’an does Allah (swt) de-emphasised the Sunnah or reduce its rank below the level the Qur’an by even a marginal amount. Even those who do give the Sunnah the authority it deserves fail to perceive the Sunnah in its correct context. Contrary to contemporary behief, the Sunnah cannot be perceived in a general, ambiguous manner. In order to represent the Sunnah in the affairs of the Ummah as correctly and accurately as possible, Muslims must view the Sunnah in a structured, categorical framework to understand what aspects of the Sunnah bear relevance to their lives and to avoid the pitfalls of misapplication and ambiguity in defining the Sunnah. In other words, it is important to differentiate between the acts which are designated to the Ummah and acts which are designated exclusively for the Prophet (saw). Types of Sunnah: * Qawli (verbal): Consists of the sayings of the Prophet (saw) on any subject. For Example: "He who cheats is not one of us" * Taqriri (approval): Consists of the approval of the Prophet (saw). If something was done in front of him (saw) and he (saw) didn’t disapprove of it, then it is considered an approval. As an example, the Prophet (saw) approved the way women prayed in the mosque separated from men, but in the same room. * Faili (actions): Consists of the Prophet’s (saw) deeds and practices, such as the way he (saw) used to pray or perform Hajj. The actions of the Prophet (saw) are divided into the following subcategories: Actions of the Prophet (saw) : Actions as Part of the Prophet’s (saw) Nature These actions include the way he stood, sat, ate, or drank. For example it is reported that when he (saw) walked and wanted to turn his head to another direction, he (saw) would turn his entire body. This type of action has no legislative impact, except in certain cases where he (saw) recommended doing a particular action. Then such an action would be considered Mandub. For example, there is a Hadith telling a Sahabi (ra) to eat with his right hand, shifting the action from Mubah (permissible) category to Mandub (recommended) category. The Sunnah also excludes specialised and technical knowledge, such as medicine, engineering, agriculture, or computers, because such technical expertise is not considered a part of the function of Prophethood. Actions Limited Specifically for the Prophet (saw) Allah (swt) has sent the Messenger (saw) with rules that are specifically related to him (saw) only. For instance, he (saw) was ordered to pray Tahajjud and the Ishraq Salah as Fard; he (saw) was allowed to continue his fasting throughout the night; his (saw) marriage contracts did not have include a dowry (Mahr); his wives could not remarry; and he (saw) was allowed to marry more than four wives at a time. Whoever performs any of these actions is sinning because these actions are exclusively for the Prophet (saw). Actions of the Prophet (saw) that Carry Legislative Consequences The kind of actions which carry a legislative consequences are of three types: The actions of the Messenger of Allah (saw) that provides an explanation for text. If this explanation was for rule or text that was obligatory, then the explanation also becomes obligatory. If the explanation was for a rule that was Mandub, then the explanation takes the same status as the rule. For example, the Qur’an obligates the establishment of the Salat. Any explanation of performing the Salat by the Messenger (saw) is thus also an obligation. For example, he (saw) recited Surah al-Fatihah while standing, and always recited the Surah during each Rakah. Except for people who are excused due to physical disabilities, reciting Surah al-Fatihah must be done while standing in Fard prayers. Also, Allah (swt) ordered the Messenger (saw) to rule the people with what was revealed to him (saw). Thus, the way the Messenger (saw) ruled the people (by Islam) is an obligation. Some argue that the Messenger (saw) did not leave details regarding the function of ruling, but rather left general principles, and that it is left to our intellect to innovate and initiate new forms of ruling. Many Muslims believe this point and are using democracy and parliamentary processes to rule the Muslims. However, because any order that is addressed to the Messenger (saw) is also addressed to all Muslims, the order to rule by the revelation is an order for all Muslims. The Qur’an warns us that those who do not rule by Islam are either Dhalimoon, Fasiqoon, or Kafiroon. The Seerah contains an abundance of details related to ruling by Islam. For example it was related in the Books of Seerah that the Messenger (saw) said: "Prophets were sent to the Children of Israel. Every time a Prophet died or was killed, another Prophet would succeed him. However, there will be no Prophet after me and there will be Khulufa and they will be many. So the Sahabah asked, ‘what should we do?’ He said, fulfill the Bay'ah to the first and then one who succeeds him and give them their rights for Allah (swt) will hold them accountable for their responsibilities." [Muslim] In addition, the Prophet (saw) said that there should be only one Khilafah; "If the Ba’yah is given to two Khalifahs, then kill the latter one." [Muslim] He (saw) also told the Muslims that whoever backs away from his Bay'ah, Allah (swt) will be angry with him. The Seerah also defines the pillars of the State’s ruling system as consisting of the Head of State, Delegates and Executive Representatives of the Head of State, Governors, Provincial governors, the Amir of Jihad, the Judges of the Judicial Branch, The Majlis of the Ummah (Consultation Assembly), and the Administrative Council. Because these aspects were detailed as an explanation of the order to rule by Islam, this explanation takes the same status as the order and is thereby mandatory for Muslims to implement. This explanation should refute any claim by any person that utilising a democratic, parliamentary, republican, monarchical, or dictatorial method of ruling is within the boundaries of Islam. In addition, Allah (swt) ordered the Messenger (saw) to carry the Islamic Da’wah. Allah (swt) says: "Say (O Muhammad): this is my way (sabeel), I and whoever follows me. Call and invite to Allah…" [Qur'an, Yusuf 12:108] and He (swt) also says: "Invite to the way of your Lord with Hikmah, and a magnetising speech (maw’ithatul-hasanah), and debate with them with what is better (ahsan)" [Qur'an, an-Nahl 16:125] These Ayat obligate the Muslims to carry the Islamic Da’wah the way the Messenger (saw) did. The Messenger of Allah (saw) performed the Da’wah as part of a group or party. He (saw) did not compromise any rule in Islam. He (saw) never adopted the principle of "If you can’t beat them, join them." The Messenger (saw) and his Companions (ra), confronted the Meccan society, attacking their Aqeeda (doctrine), laws, rulers, concepts, and always proposing Islam as the only alternative. This group never engaged in any material struggle such as in terrorist actions, military actions, or sports training. Their struggle involved a political struggle with the leaders of the Meccan society like Abu Jahl, Abu Lahab, and Walid bin al-Mughirah and an ideological struggle of addressing the practices of cheating in the scales, burying the daughters alive, worshipping idols, etc. Consequently, carrying the Islamic Da’wah today cannot be done except with this same prototype in mind. Unfortunately, many movements are trying to patch and mend the illegal Kufr regimes that are ruling over them, and others have joined the cabinets of these regimes, or have participated in the system. Some groups believe that this needs to be done because the system can either be subverted by studying the details of the system from within. These naive and Haram actions are invalid because the actions of the Messenger (saw) in explaining the Da’wah are the only actions that are binding upon the Muslims, based on the principle that if the rule is an obligation, then the explanation of the rule is also an obligation. The actions of the Prophet (saw) which falls under the category of Mandub and Nafilah Examples of such actions are fasting 6 days during the month of Shawwal, making special Dhikr on occasions, and praying Sunnah Salat. The actions of the Prophet (saw) which fall under the category Mubah Because these actions are permissible, they result in neither attaining the pleasure nor the displeasure of Allah (swt). An example of such an action is the duration of ten years for the treaty of Hudaybiyah. This period is not fixed or set limit for treaties to be signed by the Khilafah. Consequently, it is Mubah for the Khilafah to sign a treaty for five or fifteen years. Another example is digging the ditch in the Battle of the Ditch. This tactic was used to defend Medinah, and today, digging the ditch can be replaced with another tactic. Uswah (The example): "Indeed in the Messenger of Allah, you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much" [Qur'an, al-Ahzab 33:21] Following the Uswah (example) of the Messenger (saw) means to perform the action in the same way he (saw) performed it. If he (saw) carried out an action as Mandub, the Muslims must then be follow him (saw) in performing that action as Mandub. If the action is done as a Fard, then the emulation of that action has to be done as Fard. Nobody can switch this around and say that he (saw) did a particular action as a Fard and make it into a Sunnah, or vice versa. There are, however, some who feel that actions falling under this category are Fard (mandatory). Their opinion is arrived at without a deep and comprehensive study of all of the evidences and Daleel. |
| 08/20/03 at 14:59:11 |
| jannah |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
|---|
| timbuktu |
| 08/20/03 at 19:54:25 |
| [slm] sister, it is a good article indeed, but some Q's still remain. but first, i think as you are the "queen" of this city, it should not be difficult to get Dr Qaradawi to give the citizens some of his time, but the citizens should do their homework. alternatively, islamonline.net has a "Ask the Scholar" section, & although it is busy, ppl do get thru'. once even i did. :) now, the topic under discussion: how is it decided that a particular action is for the prophet [saw] only or a cultural thing? let us take the case of miswak. i don't know if it is specically recommended in the sunnah, but today people take it to mean that cleaning with any toothpaste will do. i tried different types of miswak, but wasn't sure what tree's miswak the prophet used. until i discovered that the prophet used "peelu". I used that, & the results were amazing. others have also reported the same. maybe there is something in this peelu tree. but we tried to follow the prophet as much as we could. similarly, i read somewhere eating with hands has advantages, but i have not been able to come round to it. ditto for eating from the same plate. *** this wedding bit can be looked at from the following angles: 1. the prophet did say that girls should be allowed to have fun on such occasions. 2. are there really women who have no means of getting together, or having fun etc.? 3. all our actions should be to please Allah (saw). When HIS beloved prophet's Ummah is in such dire straits, is it acceptable that we waste money on showing off? 4. getting married is supposed to be easy. if the moneyed class spends lavishly, the middle class follows it, & finally we have situations in which i have total stranger women coming up & asking for help in their sister's or daughter's dowry, or otherwise there would be no marriage for that girl. & i have described in a previous post how even a girl from a rich family was burnt to death by her husband. 5. the married couple need money to start in life. alhamdo-lillah, my wife has agreed that there will be no "khurafat" in my children's wedding. The Q now is the definition of "khurafat". on my own marriage, i had it conveyed to my in-laws that there was no demand of dowry from our side. it meant that the first item we purchased was a refrigerator, on a loan i took from my employers! there have been times of tight budgets, & taking children out of posh schools, but we have survived. Today we have everything, alhamdo-lillah. i do wish though that i had done more for the Ummah. *** |
| 08/20/03 at 20:00:22 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
|---|
| Nomi |
| 08/21/03 at 07:50:54 |
| [slm] Something just brushed my mind. People around me who are for mehndi say that "henna" was a part of arab "culture" (a famous personality of pak "Fatima surayya bajeha" is of the same opinion) and i hope that i'm not beating about the bush but i have another reservation about using the term "cultural sunnah"? when it comes to "mehndi". As many of us know that on the day of mehndi practicing Muslim ladies make some beautiful designs using "henna" and sing some halaal songs. Now its quite clear from history that poetry was widespread and was considered a gr8 skill b4 and in the time of Prophet saw. Now if He saw went by the culture then its higly likely that at the wedding of Ali [radiAllah anhu] and Fatima [radiAllah anha] this function of mehndi have had held, but it didn't. So didn't He saw actually go *against* the culture! Just few thoughts and Allah knows best [slm] Asim Zafar. |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
|---|
| Abu_Hamza |
| 08/21/03 at 08:11:48 |
| [slm] [quote author=Nomi link=board=bebzi;num=1061202124;start=0#12 date=08/20/03 at 08:50:41] Now bro Abu_Hamza, are you sure? Okay lets look into a scenario. They've got muslim friends and communities there and not all of them are striving Muslims, a friends of their's or someone in the community having indo-pak background is getting married, they attend it and hence *know* whats it like. There may be those who are *strick* or may be strong enough (debateable) to boycott such mix mehndi's but the reason they are boycotting is because they *know* "how its like", right?[/quote] Bro, I am sure :) [quote]I didn't come to that conclussion, how can i as i respect you guys so much.[/quote] Hmm. Did I say you came to that conclusion? :) [quote]Lets suppose i fail to convince my family that theres not going to be any mehndi and mayoon at my wedding, what do you think that mehndi would be like? mix? I assure you ppl thats (mix) something which is *never* going to happen and *many* practicing muslims here do organize these mehndi's so hows this segregated function (with halal fun) any different from the one that they have in the west?[/quote] There are differences. Even if we assume that everything fun will be "halal" at the mehndi/mayoon (which I would doubt very much, since traditional mehndis usually have women singing love songs while their voices are audible to the men, they have non-mahrem women with no hijaab and half sleeve qamees's go up to the groom to put flowers in his neck, feed him mithaaee, joke with him and often grab his little finger and demand him money, etc.), there are still a few differences. Tell me why your family would feel like they have to do a mehndi in the first place? I mean, if it's going to be segregated with no singing, etc, why have a mehndi at all? Why call it a mehndi/mayoon? Often times, the reason is because the families in India/Pakistan feel awkward (or even threatened) having a wedding that doesn't contain these ceremonies. It's as if the wedding would be incomplete, or they are afraid of being called names by the people in the society. There are two problems with this: 1. Traditions which are clearly hindu in not only their roots but also their present day applications in *most* Indo-Pak weddings are the model after which the events are designed. So even if you're trying to trim out the clearly haram parts from the traditions, the fact remains that the [i]asl[/i] [original motivation behind implementing those traditions] is coming from the idea propagated by the hindu culture and thus it has a clear danger of falling under the category of imitating the kuffar. 2. Things have become part of the wedding process to such an extent where one feels a wedding is *incomplete* without them. That's walking on the grounds of bid'ah, for our sharee'ah has specified what is *required* for a wedding. To add to that list, whether explicitly or implicitly, is problematic. Neither of this is the case with striving Muslims in the West holding a "mehndi" event. There has been no interaction whatsoever between them and the hindus. And there is no feeling of obligation when they perform these activities. It's done for fun, not because they feel they *have* to do it. Nobody would raise a voice if they don't, and nobody will call them names (stingy, backward, over-simplistic mullas, etc.) Please understand also what I said in my previous post. The circumstances of the Muslims in the West are very different from those in the East. The Muslims in India/Pakistan have a well-established culture, which also contains a lot of things that are taken from the kuffar, bid'ahs, etc. Therefore, the religious awakening in these countries naturally does away with a lot cultural practices because of a need to purify the culture from unIslamic practices. The Muslims in the West have no culture of their own (yet)! They are surrounded by Christians who have their own Christian practices, and as they try to shun those away, they are left with a void. So naturally they turn to Muslim countries with established traditions and take bits and pieces from different cultures (Indo-Pak, Arab, etc.). Their motive is to have a fun Muslim wedding, *different* from the kuffar (as they know them, Christians and Jews) yet fun and fulfilling at the same time. They try their best to keep out the Indian music, the mixing, the flirting, the pagan rituals, etc. Do you see a difference? Wallahu ta'ala a'lam. [quote]Whatever is jotted down above is just for clarity purposes. The way this function is held by the *striving* Muslims of either east or west is just the same i.e. segregated with halal fun.[/quote] That is simply not true. *Most* mehndis and mayoon's in Pakistan are not segregated. Worse, people are there to check out girls and guys, there is dancing, singing, and a plethora of hindu traditions like bringing out the bride/groom to the couch under a sheet of cloth spread over their head while 4 guys hold each corner, making rounds over the head of the bride/groom with cash, etc etc. To have a function devoid of all such practices is an exception, not the norm. [quote]But the question is whether this function worths it or not!! so the questions remain... 1] Arn't we told in Qur'an that best example for us is in the sunnah ?[/quote] Certainly, but that does not mean it is abominable to do things in a wedding that the Prophet [saw] did not do, as long as they are permissible and not an imitation of the kuffar. To emulate the Prophet [saw] *exactly* to the extent where we emulate his zuhd [asceticism] and cultural practices as well is both beautiful and rewardable insha Allah, but not required by sharee'ah. [quote]2] Isn't this how Ali [radiallah-anhu] and Fatima [radiallah-anha] got married ? [/quote] Same answer as above. Please keep in mind that there are two kinds of "sunnah's." I think some stuff has already been posted about this. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah |
| 08/21/03 at 08:34:35 |
| Abu_Hamza |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
|---|
| Nomi |
| 08/21/03 at 09:35:32 |
| [slm] Nomi Wrote [quote]The way this function is held by the *striving* Muslims of either east or west is just the same i.e. segregated with halal fun. [/quote] Abu_Hamza Wrote [quote] That is simply not true. *Most* mehndis and mayoon's in Pakistan are not segregated. Worse, people are there to check out girls and guys....... [/quote] Yaar! i used the word *striving* Muslims :) (exception? okay...). This can go on and on coz the impression i'm getting is that mehndi is permissible in the west but not in the east, anyways, lets agree to disagree ;). Now i'll tell my family that if they want a mehndi/mayoo'n on my wedding they'll have to move to some western country :P. Keep smiling "dost" but i wont be there to hide your "juta", bro Hanif might be your man ONLY if he manages to crash doors ;) [slm] |
| 08/21/03 at 12:42:45 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
|---|
| sofia |
| 08/21/03 at 13:03:19 |
| [slm] Are mehndhi ceremonies strictly a non-Muslim thing? is it a (Hindu) religious ceremony? are mehndis always mixed? (I have no idea what a mayoon is, so won't go there). The tradition of using henna on brides & having her friends over before the wedding has been around for ages and is practiced all over, often without any "religious" connotation, and can easily be restricted to women (I've personally only been to a mixed mehndhi in Pakistan). Shari' principles are normally quite open to regional/cultural practices, provided they do not go against shari' principles. [quote]This can go on and on coz the impression i'm getting is that mehndi is permissible in the west but not in the east, anyways, lets agree to disagree[/quote] That's an easy way out. :) Not to pretend like I have authority on the final answer, but why not put restrictions/precautions in place, rather than outlaw a mehndhi all together (in the East or West)? Why stick to the concept of mixed mehndhis/wedding with certain customs (stealing shoes, feeding milk, demanding $) as the *only* type of mehndni/wedding. I've been to plenty in the states where it was still a mehndhi/wedding with none of the above customs (not to say the above are haraam customs, Allahu A'lim, but not everyone does them). I don't think it's a matter of "let's agree to disagree." We're actually in agreement here (mixed functions where women sing/are ornamented are not good, practicing Hindu religious practices as part of our own customs are not good, certain cultural practices that don't go against shar'i principles are fine, etc). But for some reason, we (as an ummah) like to argue about details rather than come to a common understanding. Allahu A'lim, may Allah strengthen our imaan and increase us in 'ilm. [color=purple]In Saheeh Bukhaari, A'ishah (R) is reported to have said that she prepared a lady for a man from the Ansaar as his bride and the Prophet (S) said, "O A'ishah! Haven't you got any amusement? The Ansar like amusement." The Prophet (S) was also reported to have sung a local song as an example for A'ishah. [/color] |
| 08/21/03 at 15:55:13 |
| sofia |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
|---|
| Nomi |
| 08/21/03 at 13:44:41 |
| [slm] [quote author=sofia link=board=bebzi;num=1061202124;start=15#19 date=08/21/03 at 13:03:19] That's an easy way out. :) [/quote] Just when I thought that it was over :). Okay, i'm open for further discussion with an open mind inshAllah. First i would like you to respond to this [quote] Something just brushed my mind. People around me who are for mehndi say that "henna" was a part of arab "culture" (a famous personality of pak "Fatima surayya bajeha" is of the same opinion) and i hope that i'm not beating about the bush but i have another reservation about using the term "cultural sunnah"? when it comes to "mehndi". As many of us know that on the day of mehndi practicing Muslim ladies make some beautiful designs using "henna" and sing some halaal songs. Now its quite clear from history that poetry was widespread and was considered a gr8 skill b4 and in the time of Prophet [saw]. Now if He [saw] went by the culture then its higly likely that at the wedding of Ali [radiAllah anhu] and Fatima [radiAllah anha] this function of mehndi have had held, but it didn't. So didn't He [saw] actually go *against* the culture! [/quote] Why did He [saw] go against the culture, because it was a tradition of non-Muslims ? |
| 08/21/03 at 14:37:13 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| sofia |
| 08/21/03 at 15:40:26 |
| [slm] Not sure what's going on there. May have mentioned it before, but acts of ibaadah are considered haraam until proven halaal. Mu'amalaat actions (non-ibaadah) are halaal until proven haraam. That was my original point, and the article Jannah posted, as well as others, are good ones. There's much more to it, and I don't mean to sound authoritative on this principle of fiqh, in the least. For your point: Did all Arab women put henna on their hands/feet at the time of their wedding during the Prophet's (S) days? And if this is the case, did the Prophet (S) explicitly rule against it/have our scholars recognized this? If you're suggesting that a particular mu'amalaat action is haraam or even makrooh, bring your proof. It was common for men and women to use henna in their hair during the time of the Prophet (S). The Prophet (S) even suggested that women should use henna on their hands to distinguish themselves from men while he was taking bayah. I don't mean to suggest this is a fatwa. That's for our scholars. I just don't understand the assumptions that are being made in the above post. Some scholars may hold intricate henna designs as part of a woman's ornamentation and shouldn't be displayed to non-mahrem men. Same goes for anything else that she uses as beautification, with or without a mehndhi, and which often goes ignored at many Muslim weddings, unfortunately. Allahu A'lim. These things are understandable. What doesn't make sense is using a hadith here and there to come up with our own conclusions/fatwas (which I'm not suggesting anyone is doing). My original point was not so much about henna as it was about having a pre-wedding bridal function. Maybe take a look at the links and ask someone more knowledgeable on a particular ruling regarding henna. http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=102369 http://www.islamonline.net/english/Science/2001/10/article3.shtml http://www.themodernreligion.com/family/wed-fatima.html [i]Sorry to have nothing to do with the original question, sis Shahida![/i] :) |
| 08/21/03 at 16:04:41 |
| sofia |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 08/21/03 at 19:45:19 |
| [slm] [quote author=Nomi link=board=madrasa;num=1061488155;start=15#18 date=08/21/03 at 09:35:32]the impression i'm getting is that mehndi is permissible in the west but not in the east [/quote] :) I came really close to adding a P.S. to my previous post stating very clearly that my intent was *not* to imply what you have stated! I guess I should have. You completely misunderstood my post akhi. It goes without saying that I cannot put myself in a position to declare things halal or haraam. My only intent was (and is) to bring it to y'all's attention that the way people use these terms (such as "mehndi", etc.) differ based on their locality and culture. The picture that comes to your mind (whether you're a practicing Muslim from the East or not) when the word "mehndi" is mentioned is totally different from the picture that's in the mind of someone else who has never lived in India/Pakistan, but was brought up in the West as a striving young Muslim/ah. In reality, it is entirely possible (although I'm not saying it *is* the case, for Allah knows best), that what you said above is true! Conducting a mehndi event, as it is known in the Desi culture, may not be permissible according to the Sharee'ah. Yet a mehndi event, as it is practiced by several Muslims in the West, may be permissible according to Sharee'ah. But please, once again, realize that the first mehndi is not identical to the second mehndi. And *even* if it is identical in the way it is conducted, the setting is not identical, the circumstances are not identical, the norms are not identical, the motivations and background are not identical, therefore the ruling may very well change. Wallahu ta'ala a'lam. [quote]Now i'll tell my family that if they want a mehndi/mayoo'n on my wedding they'll have to move to some western country :P.[/quote] No comment. I think you're joking here. In case you're being sarcastic, I think the above suffices as a response insha Allah. [quote]Something just brushed my mind. People around me who are for mehndi say that "henna" was a part of arab "culture" (a famous personality of pak "Fatima surayya bajeha" is of the same opinion) and i hope that i'm not beating about the bush but i have another reservation about using the term "cultural sunnah"? when it comes to "mehndi". As many of us know that on the day of mehndi practicing Muslim ladies make some beautiful designs using "henna" and sing some halaal songs. Now its quite clear from history that poetry was widespread and was considered a gr8 skill b4 and in the time of Prophet . Now if He went by the culture then its higly likely that at the wedding of Ali [radiAllah anhu] and Fatima [radiAllah anha] this function of mehndi have had held, but it didn't. So didn't He actually go *against* the culture![/quote] Subhan Allah! :) I wonder if anyone else sees what I see. The problem here is the same problem that I'm trying to point out throughout my discourse: Equating two *different* things, because they are called with the same name! Henna, as the Arabs use that term does *not* equal Mehndi as desis use that term. Even though *literally* both words mean the same thing! The people at the time of the Prophet (saw) did not practice anything like the mehndi of modern day desi culture. Therefore it is not true that he [saw] actually "went against" the mehndi tradition. Actually, the whole premise is wrong here to begin with. Simply because Rasulullah (saw) did not do something in the wedding of his daughter does not mean it is haraam to incorporate that thing into a wedding, regardless of whether that thing was commonly practiced at the time or not! All it means is, it is not an obligation or a sunnah shar'iyyah. [quote]Keep smiling "dost" but i wont be there to hide your "juta", bro Hanif might be your man ONLY if he manages to crash doors ;)[/quote] I have not said *anything* about how *I* would do things :) I was not born and raised in the U.S. I was not raised in Pakistan either! I guess you can keep guessing ;) Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. |
| 08/21/03 at 19:58:24 |
| Abu_Hamza |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| Nomi |
| 08/22/03 at 07:10:26 |
| [slm] I should have left it to that but i was kinda tempted to reply! Without going into hair splitting i would like to clarify few points in this last post of mine (in this particular thread that is :) ) sis sofia wrote [quote] If you're suggesting that a particular mu'amalaat action is haraam or even makrooh, bring your proof. [/quote] I didn't use either of these words in any of my posts but there is something called [i]la-ya'nee[/i], thats what my concern was! And its all about mehndi as a function not "henna" as in its usage. I find myself the least knowledgeable person in here but there are still many questions/reservations at my end that i better not bring up just to keep it simple :) Please note that whatever i wrote in this thread is just how *i* as an individual see things, if my family (immmediate, the aunties the chachay, ma'may, ta'A :P ) get to see this discussion they'll sure appreciate you guys :) Abu_Hamza wrote [quote] Simply because Rasulullah (saw) did not do something in the wedding of his daughter does not mean it is haraam to incorporate that thing into a wedding, [/quote] Haraam is a very strong word bro, see my responce to it above. i'll leave you guys with some food for thought i.e. Would you support the functions which people have in addition to mehndi? e.g. mayoo'n, maklawa etc *provided* that they include 100% halaal fun and are segregated. 1] If yes then whats the end to these increasing additive functions? (keep in mind that they have *halaal* fun) 2] If no then how would you justify to them that your (our, as me family might push me to) celebrating mehndi is *different* from them celebrating mayoo'n, maklawa apart from mehndi ? again note that there is a condition of *halaal* fun with the mentioned gatherings. Abu_Hamza wrote [quote] I guess you can keep guessing ;) [/quote] Okay i'll give it top priority in me life :P [i]Whatever i said was in a friendly manner so plz dont take anything to heart[/i] [slm] :) |
| 08/22/03 at 07:18:36 |
| Nomi |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 08/22/03 at 08:06:11 |
| [slm] [quote author=Nomi link=board=madrasa;num=1061488155;start=15#23 date=08/22/03 at 07:10:26]Would you support the functions which people have in addition to mehndi? e.g. mayoo'n, maklawa etc *provided* that they include 100% halaal fun and are segregated. [/quote] I do not know what a maklawa is. If the mayoon does not incorporate any strange customs with the superstition that it will bring good luck, and if it is not done to imitate the kuffar, and if it is not done with the mindset that it is a necessary ingredient of the marriage, and if it does not incorporate anything which is clearly haraam, then I don't see why I should condemn such an event. Condemning means speaking out against it, discouraging all people from taking part in it, etc. Would I support it? Depends what you mean by that word. If you mean me going out and campaigning for everyone to do their marriage this way, no I will not do that. I would simply attend such gatherings happily, that's it. [quote]1] If yes then whats the end to these increasing additive functions? (keep in mind that they have *halaal* fun)[/quote] There is no end. Excess, in general, is discouraged by Allah (awj) and his Rasul [saw]. However, no set guidelines have been laid out defining what is excess and what is not because of the very reason that everyone's situation, circumstances and capacity are variable. Therefore, let everyone look at the society in which he/she lives in, look at the norms, look at his/her own situation as a person and family, and decide what would be excess and what would be moderate. If you live in a nation/neighborhood/family where most of the people don't earn enough to send their children to an institution of higher education, then I would say what is excess for you is very different from another who lives in a country/neighborhood/family where every child has his/her own BMW/Jaguar/Mercedes. P.S. Having said all what I have said, if someone chooses to have a very simple wedding, with a single celebration (walima), to imitate the Prophet [saw], then that is indeed commendable, and may Allah (swt) bless the person for it and reward him/her abundantly. Wallahu ta'ala a'lam. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. |
| 08/22/03 at 08:11:23 |
| Abu_Hamza |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| lala |
| 08/22/03 at 11:00:07 |
| [slm] Umm back to the original question: split all costs down the middle! as far as mendhi etc.. well... if I was invited to one I have the option of choosing to go or not. If I were to get married.. i wouldnt' necessarily have one being that it is not a part of my CULTURE. But then again on thinking about what exactly is part of my culture I find that there is no pre marital ceremony or event that takes place. Other than some women rubbing that yellow stuff all over the skin I cannot think of any other cultural thing that occurs. Maybe because my ancestors were of indian decent yet lost much of that culture through assimilation elsewhere..that only that yellow dye thing remained as part of a wedding tradition. Maybe mendhi parties or mendhi in general will become part of the cultural aspect of muslim weddings in the usa = only because it seems that it is highly accepted and done ( maybe not the party but the actual henna itself). Or maybe muslim women will forgo having mendhi parties and have bridal showers where women gather around eat and open gifts of who knows what. .... ok my two cents are spent! [wlm] -lala |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| faisalsb |
| 08/23/03 at 04:27:49 |
| [slm] [quote]But MY point is that we shouldn't push some permissible things to be what is rewardable or better and say that other permissible things are not. The main reason given "Oh this is the sunnah bro/sis" --because these are not legislative sunnahs, these are only cultural norms or actions of the time... [/quote] Well I think that's a good point we shouldn't FORCE or CONDEMN others even if they are doing something haram. (Apart from Dawa or Amar bil maroof and nahi un ill munkar) Neither we have right to force our ideas on others. So if brother Nomi don't want to have mehdi on his marriage party we don't have right to call him EXTREMIST or RADICAL same way if brother Abu_Hamza want to do that we don't have right to call him bidiaty or something like that. After all everyone is responsible for his actions. [quote]but first, i think as you are the "queen" of this city, it should not be difficult to get Dr Qaradawi to give the citizens some of his time, but the citizens should do their homework. [/quote] Brother timbuktu I liked your upper mentioned comments particularly the word "QUEEN". But just wondering who is the KING ........ ??? .......;) |
| Re: Weddings:who pays 4what? |
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| Mohja |
| 08/25/03 at 13:49:38 |
| umm halima..when was the last time you attended a somali wedding? i can't believe you forgot my favorite part: Shaash Saar!!! Shaash Saar, which literally means the putting on of the shaash, is a ceremony that takes place a week after the couple have been married and living together.It's usually a female only event. It's sort of a rite of passage for the bride from the wonderful world of bachelordom ;) to take her place in society now as an established matron :P The women guests will each bring a shaash (a head covering traditionally worn by married women) as a gift. The bride sits in a chair in the center of the room and the women take turns in putting the shaash on her head. The women then recite poetry and just have some fun together :-* |
| 08/25/03 at 13:53:09 |
| Mohja |
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