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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| HOLD AMERICA RESPONSIBLE!!! |
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| Ayatullah19 |
| 08/29/03 at 12:27:47 |
[slm] Today's blast in Iraq that killed over 75 muslims including Ayatullah Abdul Hakim should be blamed on the Americans, no matter how one looks at it. It is a well known fact that the Americans will never want to allow the Shi'ites to rule Iraq hence they can work with Saddam elements to wreck such havoc. Come to look at it again, the Americans are responsible for security in Iraq, hence they failed when they allow this bombing to occur. The game is up for the Americans in Iraq, muslims should now go all out against their enemy - AMERICA! |
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| Halima |
| 08/31/03 at 04:48:53 |
| What is unforgivable is DESTABLIZING a whole country in the name of getting rid of a dictator. THAT IS UNFORGIVABLE. What I see happening in Iraq is very, very painful. |
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| Fozia |
| 08/31/03 at 06:28:55 |
| [slm] What I find completely unbelievable is that any muslim would leave an explosive outside a masjid on any day of the week let alone a Friday... In addition to which, if these people have such big explosives why are the ocupying soldiers still standing??? Wasalaam |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 09/02/03 at 10:13:58 |
| Halima, if Sadam was deposed another way, lets say assassinated by some shiite, wouldn't the whole country have been destabilized? |
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| Maliha |
| 09/02/03 at 12:26:05 |
| [slm] Mike come on now... Destabilizing a country means, blowing up their infrastructure, it means cutting off pipelines, it means living without electricity, or shelter, it means thousands of homes demolished by fancy daisy cutters...it means thousands of lives lost that did not need to be lost..it means *Occupation*, it means New Age Colonizations, It means More deaths, more hatred, more frustrations, it means an outside force bombing the hell out of your country and trudging their feet when it comes to reconstruction..it means greedy oil war mongers wanting to stuff their faces on other people's resources, it means usurping the right to self determination, it means violating a gazillion UN resolutions and then still asking for help, it means everything the US is doing right now with *no* right whatsoever... yeah...i certainly hope you don't feel like the alternative the Anglo saxon Occupying oppressive force took was the best recourse did you? sigh.... [wlm] |
| Re: HOLD AMERICA RESPONSIBLE!!! |
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| Maliha |
| 09/03/03 at 07:43:11 |
| [slm] sorry if the above was harsh, don't take it personally Mike..i had just been reading too many articles on the bleakness and injustice of the situation in Iraq, and then came to post..not a good combination i suppose ::) sigh... [wlm] |
| Re: HOLD AMERICA RESPONSIBLE!!! |
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| Halima |
| 09/04/03 at 10:50:24 |
| Hi Mike, I have just seen your question above which Sis Nur_al_Layl has responded to, the same I would have. And now, the American government is realizing its mistake but at what cost? Death, deaths and more deaths! All caused by a country that claims to be a model of democracy. Mike wrote: [quote]Halima, if Sadam was deposed another way, lets say assassinated by some shiite, wouldn't the whole country have been destabilized? [/quote] Not really. Another regime would have been in power without the kind of destruction America and its allies are causing or have caused. You can not even compare! Thanks. Halima |
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| bhaloo |
| 09/04/03 at 21:15:30 |
| [slm] Jazak Allah khairen sister Nur_al_Layl. Alhumdullilah what an excellent response and I agree with you completely. There is no reason to apologize at all, may Allah (SWT) give others the same strength as you in speaking the truth. AMEEN! |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 09/04/03 at 21:55:23 |
| actually i do feel it was one of the best recourses. If Iraq had been overthrown without an outside force and civil war ensued it could have had a much longer lasting damage than an occupying force. There would have been retribution upon retribution, upon retribution. Unfortunately, the so called white anglo saxon force was the only outside agency that could have done a quick job of it. No other middle eastern country would have dared. Saddam has killed more muslims in the 20th century than any other agency and now he is gone. He wwas only going to go under a blaze of glory (or shame) and if his sons had taken power it would have been worse. But the issue still is who is to blame. It is sad when another muslim bows up a house of worship even if it is a sunni blowing up a shiite |
| Re: HOLD AMERICA RESPONSIBLE!!! |
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| WhiteSomali |
| 09/04/03 at 22:27:26 |
| [slm] [QUOTE] There would have been retribution upon retribution, upon retribution[/quote] As opposed to the peace and stability Iraq is experiencing now? [QUOTE] , the so called white anglo saxon force was the only outside agency that could have done a quick job of it.[/QUOTE] A quick job..? All they've accomplished is destabilizing the country and really, making people more miserable than before. They've broke Iraq apart; they haven't even managed to start putting it back together. And straight up, I don't trust America to put Iraq back together right either. |
| Re: HOLD AMERICA RESPONSIBLE!!! |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 09/04/03 at 22:41:03 |
| no samali, it does not have peace. Like most countries that go through this it takes a long while to stabilize. Chechnya had stability before the soviet union fell apart, but who wants that stability? many people were murdered in all parts of the soviet union, yet there was stability. there is a price for stability also especially with a despotic ruler. I look at my country (lithuania) and what happned and the great freedom it brought, but there is a lack of stability there also with mafias and the like, really hurting the country. you cannot get rid of them overnight or even over a few years, but it is still better than soviet union control. It will take a generation or so, but Saddam had to fall someday and better sooner than later. |
| Re: HOLD AMERICA RESPONSIBLE!!! |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 09/04/03 at 22:44:45 |
| and i do not trust america either. but who are you going to trust? Canada? |
| Re: HOLD AMERICA RESPONSIBLE!!! |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 09/04/03 at 22:46:58 |
| oh and nur, no offense taken at all. |
| Re: HOLD AMERICA RESPONSIBLE!!! |
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| bhaloo |
| 09/04/03 at 23:09:41 |
| [slm] Iraq unrest tied to poor U.S. planning (report by US Joint Chiefs admits to this) http://www.msnbc.com/news/960962.asp |
| Re: HOLD AMERICA RESPONSIBLE!!! |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 09/04/03 at 23:18:40 |
| a sign of grreatness is admittng to your mistakes. thanks for showing us that bhaloo!!! |
| Re: HOLD AMERICA RESPONSIBLE!!! |
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| Maliha |
| 09/04/03 at 23:34:17 |
| [slm] I have no idea whether i should cry or laugh at the absurdity of what i am hearing. Like seriously Mike, you really must think them "iraqis" are simply too stupid, too cowardly, too backward to do anything for themselves and of course we need the "great white hope" to always bail us out don't we??? It is sad, that you can easily dismiss the thousands dead, and more, because "Saddam had to go someday"...It really speaks to a deep fundamental void within, to look at the effects of what Depleted Uranium has done to generations of unborn children, and those born with grave defects..because of course "it's a job that needs to be done quick". It speaks truly to a colonial mentality, when the very basic right to self determination is not even in the debate..it's between America and Canada to help those "people" who apparently have no brains, or guts to do for themselves? How would americans react if an "outside" force came in to get rid of the Bush regime. A regime that has put millions out of jobs, and more with no health insurance, basic education, and pushed a whole generation of Americans into poverty...a regime that only caters for the corporations and panders to war oil mongers, a regime that has systemically cut out more and more so called "freedoms" in the name of the mostly prostituted "War on Terror"...A regime that needs to go...what if someone on the outside came in? Bombed the hell out of the states, killed millions of people, and more than that decided to curve out large pieces of the land for the voracious appetites of the elite who are *Foreigners*. Now the typical colonial mentality can not even conceive that can they? I mean of course we are "civilized", but them no...of course not..they need the US to plunder their lands and desecrate their future... aghhhhh, its soo sickening...sometimes i wonder why people are so blind? Or do we choose to put blinders on cuz its just easier to eat, get fat, and sleep at night? May God help us see the truth for what it really is...as painful as bitter as it is. [wlm] |
| Re: HOLD AMERICA RESPONSIBLE!!! |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 09/05/03 at 00:01:24 |
| I do not think that the iraqis are too stupid or cowardly nor did i think the lithuanians or the estonians or the ukranians were too stupid or cowardly either when they were ruled by despots. But despots go someday but most of them do not go quietl but it is usually an outside force. As in regards to health insurance, education and a job, nur it is a responsibility not a right. I am a libertarian and i try not to look towards the governemnt for anything except national security. As far as blinders, it seems everyone wears them to a certain extent. And as far as an outside agency, I am sure that many amerricans would like to see that. and i agree very much with your last sentiment. Do you think i have a colonial mentality?, if so you are wrong. But i try to look at things objectively. That is why i come on here, to get other opinions. And try to share my own. AS far a i see in this topic, only fozia has come to terms of who and why. |
| Re: HOLD AMERICA RESPONSIBLE!!! |
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| WhiteSomali |
| 09/05/03 at 00:25:48 |
| [slm] [QUOTE] As in regards to health insurance, education and a job, nur it is a responsibility not a right. I am a libertarian and i try not to look towards the governemnt for anything except national security. [/QUOTE] But, what you expect from the government, and the responsbilities of the government, are two different things. The government is responsible for the wellbeing of the citizens of a country and of the country as a whole.. That includes employment, education, health care, national security, and all that other good stuff. And please, don't tell me you're defending the Bush Administration... Anyways, more on topic. The US Government is [i]obligated[/i] to stabilize Iraq. They're the ones who destabilized it. They haven't been stabilizing Iraq; they've just been making it worse and worse. And after reading the article Bro Bhaloo linked too, although it's not really even news to anyone, I'm completely amazed at the stupidity that's running rampant. They went in there with a plan to demolish the building, but not with the blueprints to erect a new one in it's place. Of course no one has the power to stop America either. Bush makes his own rules and to hell with anyone who disagrees with them. All we can do is pray to Allah. Ya Rabb, the world is so backwards. [slm] |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 09/05/03 at 00:30:55 |
| Chris, you are from canada as are many of my relatives and unfortunately they have got it all backwards, for thousands of years employment and education and health care were the individuals responsiblity. It is only the 20th century and the rise of marxism that has stood logic on its head and turned responsibilities into rights. |
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| Halima |
| 09/05/03 at 02:09:33 |
| Mike, Saddam Hussein was a despot, killing and terrozing his own people. Without justifying it, that is what dictators do. But you seem to be completely unable to rate Bush and its administration into any category except as someone who is sane and right in every way. America boasts of representing democracy and up holding human rights. I am asking you, how different is Bush, his administration and puppet allies diffrent from Saddam??? If Saddam is a dictator and despot, what are Bush and Blair??? Saints??? How do you justify their actions??? Are you saying by their killing hundreds of thousands of civilians through air bombardment they are doing a better job than Saddam??? Are you saying by occupying Iraq, they are doing the Iraqi people a great favour??? Are you saying that with the endless killings going on, Bush and Blair are better than Saddam??? You are saying by turning Iraq into a killing and death field, they are better than Saddam??? How can you be so blind by seeing only one side??? If Saddam is that horrible human being we all know he was, then Bush and Blair are total maniacs and blood thirsty criminals worse than Saddam. For they claim to be cilivilized up holders of democracy and human rights but they are despicably the worst barbaric people in history today. AND NOTHING, NOTHING YOU SAY will change that. So my dear Mike, look at both sides of the coin and please, stop harping on Saddam's despotism and see the reality that is staring at you right in the face. Because by clinging to what Saddam was, you are selectively refusing to believe that white people can be worse than Saddam in the 21st century. Thanks, Halima |
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| Maliha |
| 09/05/03 at 08:00:09 |
| [slm] Fozia from what I got out of her post was being sarcastic..but then again, i could be wrong, and goes to show how two people can look at the same thing and read two *very* different things from it ::) It goes to show that there are fundamental differences in the way we view the world, our situation, our rights and responsibilities...the differences are as vast as the heaven and earth itself..and if we spent the whole of eternity arguing about who is right...we will be wasting too much precious time, and too sweet a breath that can be used for the more pleasurable things in this fleeting world (like Remembrance of our Creator). As a Muslim my lenses will forever be different than any other creed that exists out there, call it whatever. You asked what I expect of a government and in short (barring any discussions on the very *flawed* political thoughts out there), for any one in authority (as Halima eloquently stated) they do have basic responsibilities on the citizens.... Oppressors do come to an end. Despots die. Tyrants die. But history also dictates that no one, absolutely *no one*, can play "god". That whoever arrogates himself and claims "greatness", invariably will fall down a huge humiliating fall.... That yesterday we had Byzantine, Persia, Rome, we had Mali, Songhai, we had the Soviets (and much more grander and more "civilized" societies) that fell like a simple deck of cards. What arrogates today's U.S, Britain, and Israel to think that they will not meet the same fate? As a Muslim my faith dictates it's a matter of time...and time is too fleeting for me to push blame on my struggling brothers and sisters when I could be helping them in concrete ways. We all know the arguments..yeah yeah we let go of our responsibility, we oppressed ourselves and Allah sent oppressors on us, we brought calamity on ourselves for Allah is Just... but we'll never forget that we stand as brothers and sisters first. That if one part of the ummah is ailing, we are all ailing..that to know there is a mother mourning the loss of her baby thousands of miles away, and a father humiliated, helpless, captured, closer to home...is enough to constrict my chest, is enough to have me shed tears of repentance for all of the suffering humanity and to beg, plead, to the Only One that can get us out of this situation. It is enough to hold ourselves accountable and work towards our own rectification, but please never ever try to justify oppression to me. That's a blinder I refuse to put on. May Allah aid us against our enemies within and without. Inshaallah this will be my last post here. [wlm] |
| Re: HOLD AMERICA RESPONSIBLE!!! |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 09/05/03 at 10:35:48 |
| Halima, i am looking at both sides. The bombing of the mosque was done by muslims not by America. Cna't you see that? What blinders do you have on. You say it is Americas fault that we did not provide proper security. How can you protect every building from car bombs? America is wrong in so many ways, which i have admitted to so so many times. But, also there has to be responsibility on muslims, Nur, you claim that Fozia was being sarcastic. What blinders do you have on? This was a mosque specifically targetted by muslims. There is something very very wrong with that. If you cannot see that then it is you that has blinders on and not me. I am sure that you can turn every incident that happnes and turn it into America being at fault, but this is standing logic on its head. |
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| UmmWafi |
| 09/05/03 at 10:58:12 |
| I am not joining the fray here ( I hope ! ) but just wondered about a few things. 1. What exactly was the rationale for invading Iraq ? If it was because of the WMD, well the invasion was done after evidence of WMD was NOT found. If that was the rationale, then N Korea should have been a clearer target. There ARE evidences of nuclear weapons and they too have a history ( think Korean War ). If the rationale was because Saddam was an evil leader, uhhhh....methinks there are wayyyyy too many candidates who qualify for that more than Saddam ever did. Heck, by virtue of that fact, USA should be invaded because Bush with his ludicrous policies ( think of his environmental boo-boo as in CO2 is not a pollutant ? ) is a menace to the thinking world. 2. Is iraq now better off than it ever was ? And do you honestly think situation would ever improve ? Before you jump the gun and just say yes, think about what "good" means to different people. A country with a high GDP and reserves may also have extreme moral breakdown and a country with mediocre GDP and small reserves may have an orderly society with good moral practices. So in this case what is going to be our yardstick of measurement ? Should it just be economics ? Similarly, how do we judge what is good for the Iraqis ? Of course this begs the question, should we even be judging ? Pardon the intrusion. Normally the Ummah ain't mah playin' field ;) |
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| Yasin |
| 09/06/03 at 02:40:43 |
| [slm] What you heard in the news everyday about kiling US soldiers will be finish , if iraqis fight each other as sunni and shiite so, this is a plan that US want to implement to DIVIDE and RULE iraqis..remember the colonized countries when they arrive country they want to colonise they divide people into different sects to rule them. American divide iraqis to shiite,sunni and kurds then it didn't work , then they think another possibilities to start war between them. that is why they bomb shiite mosque and that is why they shoot sunni mosque ... |
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| Fozia |
| 09/06/03 at 06:18:08 |
| [slm] Fozia was being sarcastic, but being a brit her sarcasm doesn't appear to cross the pond very well. My take on the bombing is that it appears from my point of view to be of the old 'divide and rule' line, if the two factions are busy fighting amongst themselves, we'll be able to milk this cash cow dry before they notice. Amercia didn't like the Ayatollah and his death was to their benefit, they don't want a thinking autonomous government, they want one with strings attached which they can pull on..... Bureaucracy is good so long as it's the one we choose, freedom is good so long as it's spent rioting and plundering your own land (saves our cookie cutters for other unarmed, oil rich countries).... The big mistake the Lapdog and the Hedge made with this invasion was that it was done straight after their 'victory' in Afghanistan. They didn't notice, or perhaps didn't care that actually Iraqi's are well educated, and quite capable of putting their country back together again without the need of paying for foriegn intervention. The two presidents thought they'd be in commit a massacre, and take over the countries oil fields.... They had the audacity to put a time limit of a week on this war.... Is it just me or has any one else noticed, that although the country has been destabilised, the oils wells are fine??? BTW I totally agree with Mike, education, health and jobs are nothing to do with the government, I'm off to ask for a refund of my taxes.... ::) Wasalaam |
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