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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board

Im so disgusted
panjul
09/08/03 at 20:33:33
>:(http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1037021,00.html Fury at Muslim talks in memory of 9/11 hijackers Jason Burke, chief reporter Sunday September 7, 2003 The Observer An extremist British Islamic group which has been linked to suicide bombings overseas is to hold a conference in London on 11 September dedicated to 'The Magnificent Nineteen' - the hijackers who killed more than 3,000 people in the US nearly two years ago. The controversial conference, which hundreds of young British Muslims are expected to attend, is being closely monitored by police and security officials. It has been organised by the al-Muhajiroun group, which was investigated by police after senior figures admitting acting as 'spiritual advisers' to two British suicide bombers who died in Israel earlier this year. Fly posters for the conference display the faces of the 19 hijackers along with a religious verse stating that the men 'were youth who believed in their Lord'. Omar Bakri Mohammed, the north London-based self-styled 'emir' of al-Muhajiroun, denied that the meeting was a celebration of 11 September. 'It is an exploration of the causes of the event,' he said. Bakri Mohammed has previously praised the two British suicide bombers, who he admitted had attended al-Muhajiroun meetings. 'These two brothers have drawn a diving road map... in blood,' he was reported as saying. Earlier this summer the offices of al-Muhajiroun were raided by Scotland Yard officers under the Terrorism Act 2000. Moderate Muslim groups condemned the conference this weekend. 'September 11 was an abhorrent crime. Any activity that targets civilians is abhorrent,' said a spokesman for the Muslim Association of Britain. See the link above for the entire article >:(

Re: Im so disgusted
tincanman
09/09/03 at 08:16:55
I was really disgusted too, when I read the above. Why? Firstly because the British and American Murderers(they call them soldiers) go out and Murder in the name of kufr, a lot more people then were lost due to the “Collateral Damage” of 9’11. This article reminded me of how much air time both Muslims and Kaffar give to the “accidents” that happened in 9’11. Compare that to how much words of condemnation is heard against what happens to us? So many Muslims are being killed now that 3000 Muslim deaths is a number that people would not even notice. It would not even be given a line in one of the middle pages of a very long newspaper. Am I going to morn 9’11? No, I have to save my morning for 9’16. Do any of the kaffar Morn 9’16? I know many who call it a day of victory.  The Jews elected Arial Shoran President because what he done in 9’16. America increased the amount of money which they give Israel as a reword for 9’16. Arial Sharon was called a “man of peace” by Bush because of 9’16. So we should not cry crocodile tears for them, let them cry tears for themselves. We have enough people to cry for as it is. Now, when the Jews how conferences and Demonstrations celebrating what they done to us (And they have many), do you see the press condemning it? Do the police intimidating the attendance by spying on them? You see Muslim places of worship and offices raided; do you see this for any other religion? When the police find that the Muslims have broken no laws, do any offices get disciplined? Are their any apologies? Is there an outcry from the press? Muslims are being accused of praising Jihad, so are condemned for it. Now let’s look at what others do, the Nazi Israeli army has recently opened a recruiting office in the UK to recruit war criminals needed for killing babies. Was this condemned by the press, shut down or raided by the police? Israeli groups openly collect funds here. What’s done to prevent that? The Hindu terrorist who murdered a lot more people then those who died in 9’11 openly recruit and collect funds here. The very man responsible for the Gujarat massacre came here to speak at a conference. I was also disgusted because the article reminded me of an earlier article in this Propaganda paper. When the Algerian elections were canceled and many Muslims were murdered, raped and placed in prison for daring to vote in an Islamic party the Guardian praised the actions of the Algerian Military by saying “Some times you have to use undemocratic means to secure democracy”.

Re: Im so disgusted
lucid9
09/09/03 at 08:37:52
[slm] These dudes are usually high school flunkies and their leaders are like for sure -- MI5 and MI6 operatives.  How else could they survive this long without being thrust in the slammer and somebody "accidentally" losing the key? [slm]

Re: Im so disgusted
tincanman
09/09/03 at 10:45:00
I often see this. Trust of the Kaffar and distrust of the Muslims. Accusing some on of working for the kaffar against the believer is a serious accusation. Doing it without any evidence is something even worse. The reason why people don’t get thrown in to prison is they have not broken any laws. Not many governments like throwing people in to prison when they haven’t broken laws regularly, but it does happen. These days we don’t need people secretly working for the kaffar under pay, because there are many people doing it openly without pay. People who inform on brothers often come one T.V and brag about it. Others announce their collaboration to the believers and wear it as a badge of honour. Now if I told you some thing bad about a brother or a group of brothers, would you believe me? Bearing in mine you have never met me? What if you had information that I didn’t really believe in Allah and his messenger, would that affect how you take may accusation? What if you knew I hated Islam, would you accept what I accuse Muslims of doing as true? Now I have some Questions for you? Have you ever met the writer of the piece? Is he a believer in Allah and his messenger? Is the paper he is writing for Pro Muslim or Pro Kufr? Bearing in mind what that paper said after the Algerian elections. Now if what the brothers are saying has affected you, go to them and speak to them about it politely. May be that’s what they said, may be its not. I do not know because I didn’t hear it from their lips and I don’t trust the words of the Kaffar. And I don’t care. I have no need to find out. 9’11 is not a big day for me. 9’16 is our big day. That’s when the U.N emptied the Shebra and Shatila camps of all men able to fight. Then the Israelis surrounded it, so no one can get in or out. The women, children and old people who were trapped inside, were killed for 3 days. This all happened within eyesight of the UN. After this happened the US reworded Israel by increasing the money they give them. And then the Israelis voted in the man responsible as president. Now I am more interested in 9’16 then 9’11. So if any of you are intending to mark 9’11 with something. Please wait a few days, and delay it to 9’16. We Muslims don’t need to mark the tragedies of our enemies. Our enemies have made sure we have enough of our own to mark.

Re: Im so disgusted
lucid9
09/09/03 at 11:27:59
[quote author=tincanman link=board=ummah;num=1063064013;start=0#3 date=09/09/03 at 10:45:00] Accusing some on of working for the kaffar against the believer is a serious accusation. Doing it without any evidence is something even worse. [/quote] How stupid do you think we are?  We well know what al-muhijirounis do.  They do stuff like going around to  jews and christians in Manchester and tell them "just wait, we are gonna kill you when the time comes...." When are muslims going to stop hiding behind the misused excuses: "oh, i don't wanna condemn em cuz i'm not a scholar, and i don't know that much about islam..." "oh i don't know what they're really about.  i don't trust what people say about em until i meet em and have a 16 course meal with em and go away on a one year retreat with em...." Brothers and sisters,  "al halal bayinoon, wal harami bayinoon"   -- what is legal, right and halal is obvious and what is not is also obvious (famous hadith)..  You don't have to be a scholar to understand what's right and what's wrong.  These things any normal muslim can understand -- and these things are felt by the heart.  So don't go around hiding behind ridiculous excuses....like oh i don't know....i'm not really  knowledgable about them..." The tragedy of the muslim world is that good people refuse to criticise and speak up against the travesty that some very vocal people try to pass off as islam.  It is because of that muted silence that the muslim world is so incredibly messed up.

Re: Im so disgusted
humble_muslim
09/09/03 at 12:38:08
AA I've already said a lot of stuff about this is a previous thread.  What really upsets me is when anyone on this board says that muslims did 9/11, there are trated as pariahs by other people on this board.  But now we have these muslims not only admitting but glorifying the fact that muslims were responsible for 9/11, and all we hear are silent voices.  So just to put the record straight, IMHO these guys are nutters, frank and simple, and what they are doing can lead to no good whatsoever for either the muslims in the UK or anywhere else in the world.
NS

Re: Im so disgusted
se7en
09/09/03 at 13:00:25
as salaamu alaykum, I'm sick of all of this... I'm sick of blind hearts and minds who fail to see the atrocities their government is perpetrating in their name the world over.. and I'm *sick* of Muslims who spurt forth the *same exact* nonsense, replacing the word 'government' with 'vigiliante forces'. as Muslims we are *religiously obligated* to condemn evil, and so we condemn state terrorism, and we condemn vigilante terrorism.  innocent blood spills red whether the heart that pumps it is conscious of tawheed or not, and those who spill it will be called to account on the Day of Judgement whether they don the cloak of 'Islam' or democracy or whatever else. we are indeed a sick community when we become like those we claim to be fighting against.  and what makes us any different from them if, blinded by our own grievances, we condone the murder of innocent people? [color=black] stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not The hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted With all that ye do. [/color]
09/09/03 at 13:08:36
se7en

Re: Im so disgusted
siddiqui
09/09/03 at 13:15:34
[slm] Killing of innocent people (on either side ) cannot be justified by any amount of celebration /reasoning /retaliation nor the memories can be washed away with any amount of mourning What we as human beings have failed to realise that each one of us has been created by Allah swt and every act of hurt/harm we commit we answerable to our maker/creator/sustainer and the day of reckoning isnt far off. [wlm]
09/09/03 at 13:17:20
siddiqui

Re: Im so disgusted
tincanman
09/09/03 at 21:02:18
lucid9 you said “to  jews and christians in Manchester and tell them”: "just wait, we are gonna kill you when the time comes...." I have never personally heard them or any other Muslim group say this (May be cause I haven’t been to Manchester in a while?). But I have heard the kaffar say this many times. Jews have said this so many times I can’t keep count. The thing is no one cares. If you report it to the police, they laugh at you and say “don’t worry”. If you report it to the Uni they say “he didn’t mean it”, if you report it to your Muslim brothers they don’t believe you. Come to think of it, don’t the news papers and T.V say this to us? I mean didn’t Moline Phelps call us the fifth column? Hmmm may be I imagined it? Basically I have been giving dawa long before Mauhiroon ever existed. And I have heard the statement you have written above many times, but always from Kaffar, and directed to us, that or “why don’t you go back to where you come from”. You also said: “When are muslims going to stop hiding behind the misused excuses”: I say: Yes a lot of Muslim like making excuses for their Brothers. I think 70 times sounds like a good number? If any of you have made 70, try and stretch it to 71. You also said: "oh, i don't wanna condemn em cuz i'm not a scholar, and i don't know that much about islam..." I say: May Allah bless you for mentioning such a beautiful statement to me. I love you for the sake of Allah because of this. I must use this the next time I am asked to condemn Muslims. Even If Allah makes me a scholar, I don’t care if he makes me a Mujtaheed Mutluk, I will use this statement when some one expects me to condemn Muslims. You said: "oh i don't know what they're really about.  i don't trust what people say about em until i meet em and have a 16 course meal with em and go away on a one year retreat with em...." I say: That makes a lot more sense to me then making a condemnation due to an article in a Zionist paper, who calls a military Dictatorship replacing an elected government “using undemocratic means to secure democracy”. Anyway your MI5/MI6 statement seemed really unjustified to me, so if that is the only way you can gain the knowledge to know statements like that are not allowed, then go ahead brother. Have your 16 course meal and go on a one year retreat. I can’t see it would have a detrimental effect on you as long as you make sure the 16 course meal contains very small portions. You said: “Brothers and sisters,  "al halal bayinoon, wal harami bayinoon"   -- what is legal, right and halal is obvious and what is not is also obvious (famous hadith)..  You don't have to be a scholar to understand what's right and what's wrong.  These things any normal muslim can understand -- and these things are felt by the heart.  So don't go around hiding behind ridiculous excuses....like oh i don't know....i'm not really  knowledgable about them..."” I say: When I was young I used to think like that. Until I decided to ask the other guy. That’s when I realized every one considers themselves to be right. There aren’t many people going on a path knowing it is wrong. For some people this is very hard to understand. Go down to one of them and ask. They would say your above statement to you.   There are issues that are clear: Islam is the truth. Mohammed is the last prophet of Allah. Allah is one. I don’t think the disagreement you have with your brothers is a clear issue. And I don’t really care. Its not bayinoon that’s for certain. Cause there is a whole load of brothers who think the opposite is Bayinoon. You said: The tragedy of the muslim world is that good people refuse to criticise and speak up against the travesty that some very vocal people try to pass off as islam.  It is because of that muted silence that the muslim world is so incredibly messed up. "just wait, we are gonna kill you when the time comes...." I say: This is completely true. Now we see a Hippy, Secular, Pacifistic, Nationalistic, Patriotic, Pro-Western Cult being passed of as Islam by very vocal bunch that have the full support of the Media, Zionists, Governments, UN, Christian Evangelists, all the Enemies of Islam and Satan himself. And I agree it is because of this that the Muslim World is messed up. And this is happening at a time when the kaffar are telling us  "just wait, we are gonna kill you when the time comes....", and doing exactly that. The thing about the kaffar, when they promise to kill us, they do exactly that. But they also kill us when they promise not to. So does that make them keepers or breakers of promises? I’m confused!   Asalm walakum wa rahmutullah wabarakatihi

Re: Im so disgusted
tincanman
09/09/03 at 21:36:53
Humblemuslim What upsets me is when some one says Muslims didn’t do it being treated as pariahs. I often see that in many boards. For some reason that seems more expectable? I see Muslims glorifying what is happening to us in Iraq. I also see Muslims taking part in what is happening to us there. And there wasn’t any voices against the Muslims in the US army or the tax payers who pay for it? How about the Indian army? How many Muslims fill its ranks to act as canon fodder to help the cow worshipers deflower our sisters in Kashmire. I don’t hear much coming out of the Bastian of the Hanifi Madhab. I personally don’t know who did the whole 9’11 thing. May be it was Muslims, May be it was the Zionists or the US government, or it could have just been some kind of insurance scam. Well what ever created hands were at work there, what every one will agree with is that Allah did it. When our time of death comes, the Angel will come and get us even if we are secure in tall towers. America is a powerful Nation, and many powerful nations existed before. Where are they now? Where is Persia, Babylon, Rome, Sodom and Gomorrah? 9’11 tells us Allah lasts forever, America wont. Well brother, you called people who agree with you that Muslims did it, Nutters. If they are right and Muslims did do it, as far as I’m concerned, that’s one excuse I need to make for nineteen of my brothers. Its better then making excuses for the Millions killed by the US that a lot of very vocal Muslims like to make. September is the month of excuses. Arial Shoron was excused for what he did in this month by his population who elected him president for 9’16 and America regards 9’16 as the actions of a man of peace. How many of the Americans on this board who are old enough voted for Bush, and have you made an excuse for yourself and each other yet?

Re: Im so disgusted
tincanman
09/09/03 at 21:44:31
Seven, My sister, not only haven’t you been to the conference yet, but it hasn’t even happened yet. wait till you know what is said before you make your reaction to what is said.

Re: Im so disgusted
ltcorpest2
09/09/03 at 22:22:12
tin can  i like the insurance scam bit,  nice one

Re: Im so disgusted
ltcorpest2
09/09/03 at 22:42:06
oh and tin can,  welcome to the board. I am mike from so calif.  I hope you enjoy your stay here,  There are some really great people here and worthwhile getting to know. I guess this should be in another thread, but you said many boards.  I have only been on 2 of them and for some reason both have been muslim.  maybe you can share some experiences on the other boards.

Re: Im so disgusted
Caraj
09/09/03 at 23:57:05
Well, maybe I should stay out of this, but me personally, I am sick of this whole disgusting mess.  :P    :(    :'(    >:( And if those 911 hijackers were truly representing Islam (which from what I have learned of Islam so far they were not) then someone please show me where in the Quran it is ok to kill innocent people cause you're ticked off at some government? I am equally disgusted that Muslim nations did not intervien when Saddam and his sons were hurting and killing many Muslims, their own people. I am equally disgusted that my country went into Iraq and now it has more problems (or so it seems) than before we went in. I am just DISGUSTED with this whole world situation. Scotty.........BEAM ME UP this planet sucks!!!!! Everyone, show peace and mercy and love one another and pray for peace. Pray is not fruitless. Ok just my .02 cents Jannah seems so cool and just and wise and smart so I am beginning a new career as Jannah's campaign manager. [move]  :-*    :-*    :-*    :-*   JANNAH FOR PRESIDENT    :-*    :-*    :-*    :-*[/move]
09/09/03 at 23:59:45
Caraj

Re: Im so disgusted
jannah
09/10/03 at 00:44:43
[wlm] you're probably the only one in the world that thinks that nowadays so thanx azizah :) i'm surprised no one has mentioned the negative dawah mess that "magnificent 19 poster" has generated. For example, today's Time magazine has it reproduced as evidence that Saudi is supporting terrorists and have been supporting terrorists and that they should be the US's next enemy and target... the poster has also been mentioned in many other media publications... so what the heck. First of all, what group can dare go against the fatwa's of every major scholar in the world who has condemned 9/11 as contrary to islamic tenents and beliefs.  Second how can they publicize their views in such a way to bring so much negativity to Muslims everywhere.   Seriously I can so sympathize with the disenfranchised Muslims the world over that are facing injustice after injustice, evil after evil and are burning with humiliation, death and pain.  But if you go out and do stuff without thinking about it and without applying the principles of Quran and Sunnah what makes you better than anyone else?

Re: Im so disgusted
UmmWafi
09/10/03 at 05:01:01
[slm] Life is certainly full of ironies ain't it ?  Something extremely dreadful happened on 11th September 2001.  That was two years ago.  However, Muslims the world over are still paying the price.  They are still looked at suspiciously.  They are still targets of hate attacks.  They are still discriminated from getting jobs.  Worse still, some of them are still victims of their small mindedness with regards to the event and its implications.  I wonder for how long more should we pay the price ?  A price too heavy for something that is unfairly levelled to the whole population.  Would it be 5 years, 10 years, 50 years before September can come and go without us having to cringe ?   Amazing thing is, Bosnia is forgotten.  Serbs who hated the Muslims with their guts are allowed to sleep in peace.  They are allowed to forget that they once raped Bosnian girls just so they can bear children of Serbian blood.  Srebrennica (pardon the spelling, maybe Mike can help me out here) is just a dot in the vast map of what is now Bosnia Hezegovina.  The lives of thousands upon thousands of men and boys extinguished so carelessly worth nothing, not even to Muslims who advocate vocal protest against injustice.  As for Croatia, they can even pretend as if they were never part of the mess. What is the deal here ?  How come the world is allowed to forget more than 20,000 lives lost and never allowed to forget the ones lost at WTC ?  How come some Muslims forget Srebrennica and debate heatedly untul now about 9/11 ?  Maybe because Srebrennica is a poor man's war while 9/11 attacked a rich man's playing field.  Is that what it boils down to ? That only the rich man's life is worth something ? What about Africa ?  A continent infamous for its poverty.  The source of so many pictures of children too starved to even lift their eyelids.  Imagine what 87Billion US dollars can do.  In Srebrennica and in Africa.  But no.  The 87B will be used to continually burn the hatred against Muslims. If the US is smart, they would realise that they don't need to burn 87B to flame the hatred, they don't even need 1B.  If some Muslims persistently display to the world their cruel and twisted version of what Islam is, then hey, why should the kuffar do anything ?  Sure, I have not attended the conference and most likely I won't.  However, I don't need to lock myself up in a room with a man who is not my husband to know that Shaitaan will be working overtime then.  I don't need to actually drink cyanide to know it will kill me.  I don't want to sound as if I have shu'dzan against the organisers of the talk but please Imam al-Ghazali and all the Sufis had repeatedly advised the Muslims on one thing: HIKMAH.  For whatever reasons one wants to hold a talk, it should always be done with Hikmah.  Honestly speaking, if the talk wants to look at the root and cause of dissatisfaction and enmity against the US which culminated in 9/11, is it the ultimate practice of wisdom to display the 19 "hijackers" ? Wasn't there any other way ? It has always been my practice to try and not conclude about anything prematurely.  I always bear in mind that fools rush in where angels fear to tread.  For that reason, I am not in favour of dishing out my thoughts as if they are revelations after the Qur'an.  I always bear in mind that some people pray 5 times a day and think they know everything they needed to know about being Muslims and about Allah.  Some others spend their lives not only in solah but dhikr, fikr, khalwah, retreat, knowledge seeking and yet still istighfar all the time for their ignorance.  After all, should one trust everything one perceive and thought to perceive ?  Even the Indians, in the reading of the Bhagavad Gita, know that knowledge is inexhaustible.  By this virtue, I think no true scholars in their right mind would condemn anyone, perhaps actions but not people.  As far as not having to be a scholar to distinguish between right and wrong, that is precisely why the Ummah is stuck in some bigoted rut right now (if you would pardon this plain speaking).  That is why some Muslim men think that is right to lock women in the house and deprive them of school.  That is why some fathers and brothers practise honour killings when the Prophet SAW himself preached and practised mercy and forgiveness.  That is why Sunnis think its okay to kill Shi'is and Shi'is think its okay to kill Sunnis.  That is why you have people actually ascertaining that any other leanings beside Wahhabi-sm is the wrong path and destined to An-Nar.  That is why some of us go around being our own worst enemies. So yeah, the next time someone ask me what I think of the impact of 9/11 is on Anglo-Muslim relations, I will smile and ask them "Shall we discuss the role of the UN, USA, UK and their allies in the Bosnian War via-a-vis Srebrennica ?" So yeah, the next time I excuse myself from condemning anyone because I am not a scholar, let it be said that I am misusing an excuse.  I would rather misuse an excuse than ever make the fatal mistake of thinking that I must necessarily be right.  In all counts. So yeah, next time someone ask me whether it is justified to spend 87b on Iraq, I would most prolly say "Money should be used to save lives not to extinguish them.  Make a crossed cheque to AfricaAid to the amount of 87b". Oh wait.  There is no oil in Africa.  Bummer. Wassalam.

Re: Im so disgusted
tincanman
09/10/03 at 05:45:40
Mike, thanks for the Salutations. I’m Tintin (not my real name), from London. I post at a verity of different boards. But not all the time. Only until I get board of boards. azizah The Quran they follow is the same one that is sitting in your Room. If you want know about how they justify there actions, the solution is very simple, but for some reason people who want to criticize them never bother to try. Just go up to them and ask. It’s as simple as that. I have done so. And what I was told was “Killing civilians is Harram, but if the enemy is killing civilians and the only way to stop them is to attack their civilians then it is lawful”. Now this means they are not doing it because they are ticked of with Bush. I am not saying I agree or disagree with the above statement. But this is not an issue as clear cut as some people would prefer it to be. Considering that our lives and the lives of other “Uncivilized” people holds no weight at all. We remember that Dresden was Bombed to annihilation, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked, Hanoi was carpet bombed, And 1.5 million Iraqis starving to death due to sanctions was a price worth paying because some people were ticked off with Saddam. You said: ”I am equally disgusted that Muslim nations did not intervien when Saddam and his sons were hurting and killing many Muslims, their own people. “ I say: Those of us, who are old enough to remember him doing the above, know that the Muslim nations, America and the British did intervene. They intervened openly. They made no secret of their intervention and it was well published. The Scholars of Saudi Arabia called him the new Salahudeen Ayobi, the defender of Ahlal Sunnah wal Jammah. The gulf state poured money in to Iraq to make sure he has enough money to murder Muslims. The British and Americans sold him all the weapons he needed. His biological weapons expert was trained by the British. They sold him the Chemical weapons he used against the Kurds. America gave him logistical support and satellite photographs. They sold him the Chemical weapons he used against his own people. And when it became known he used them against civilians, they sold him a lot more. So they all intervened. You said: “I am equally disgusted that my country went into Iraq and now it has more problems (or so it seems) than before we went in.”   I say: We? They probably wouldn’t let you anywhere near the decision making apparatus. The decision wasn’t made by “We”, it was made by them. It’s just our taxes that are paying for it. Jannah If they decide they want to attack Saudi, they’ll make up some excuse to do it. They attacked Iraq and Afghanistan with out the help of the posters and the alleged attackers weren’t even from there. Time magazine is just a Zionist propaganda machine. Now how did they manage to stretch a poster by a British group that is illegal in Saudi Arabia to mean Saudi collaboration? They might go against the scholars you trust and you go against theirs. We all go against other people scholars, if we didn’t they’d be our scholars. Opposition groups don’t trust major scholars for obvious reasons. Everyone claims they are the ones following Quran and Sunnah as well as accusing the other party of following other then the sacred texts. Before this accusation is made ask you brothers in Islam how they justify their actions/inactions with Quran and Sunnah. I am not going to ask Muhajiroon about their dalil on 9’11. I can’t be bothered, and I have no desire to find out. People justifying 9’16 affects me a lot more. But no one seems to care about Muslim lives. They are really insignificant bits of collateral damage, no matter how they are lost.

Re: Im so disgusted
humble_muslim
09/10/03 at 10:36:41
AA I originally wrote my own post, but have removed it and replaced it with this from the JIMAS web site, which addresses more or less every point made in this thread.  This is my last word on the issue. First of all we express from the bottom of our hearts our deepest sympathy and support for the victims of the wanton massacre on the 11th of September in the U.S.A. It was heart-rending and numbing to learn of this awesome tragedy. We also condemn this act in the strongest terms because the terrorists have carried out what Allah forbade for mankind. May Allah grants strength, comfort and relief to those living but bereft of so many of their loved ones. We firmly believe that whoever perpetrated such an evil crime needs to be brought to justice. Moreover, those criminals must be very far removed from any true recognition of God, His mercy and guidance to mankind. Criminals can come from any religious persuasion and the situation is especially painful to us because it is clear to us, beyond a shadow of doubt, that all forms of terrorism and wanton destruction of property is completely forbidden by Islam. However, some people perpetrate such acts in the name of God and Islam while others try to malign the name of Islam and Muslims on account of such godless acts. Now we appear to stand on the brink of yet countless more innocent lives, Muslims or non-Muslims, to be lost, shattered or tortured. We hope one day our crying will stop and our hearts will feel ease. We pray to see a world where we can share the truth we have come to know and understand through means that Allah loves, not by bigotry, narrow-mindedness and so-called rough justice. We are pained to hear from Muslims justification of theft and murder. We are saddened at our ignorance and just how little we try to evade interpreting the Deen according to our desires. Some Muslims say they are confused. What can be our destiny if we are indeed those who study the Quran and the Sunnah and yet cannot see what is clear beyond doubt? We do not even know where to start or how to say anything. Islam a religion that teaches truth, justice, charity and mercy and warns against oppression is now used by some to further exactly the opposite values. That some non-Muslims will do this is inevitable. That some Muslims will do so is inexcusable. We wonder at the depths of darkness and delusion that some of us have fallen - may Allah grant all Muslims forgiveness, both those who are alive and those who have passed away, amen. Do we need a fatwah whether murder, stealing and lying is OK? If, may Allah forbid, we go out and attack some non-Muslim passer by, will anyone justify that action by asking what drove us to do that? An act that is forbidden in Islam remains forbidden and what is wrong and unjust remains so. It is utter nonsense and unIslamic when some behave as if they are combatants in the field of battle when they are either citizens of a country living and working there or given permission to enter on trust. Some people could not be examples of Islamic piety and charity that was required, nor could they share the knowledge of Islam in true da'wah as is our obligation. So some of of them imagine they can excuse that failure by seeing things in light of exceptions as in the battlefield. We need to fear Allah better. Even in the actual battlefield we have rules and regulations to follow and that which is unavoidable we do fearing Him. We cannot believe Muslims who follow the noble teachings of the Quran and the blessed way of the Mercy to the worlds can perpetrate such a heartless and inhuman cruelty. When the guilty are asked on the Day of Judgement, for what crime was the child killed, what will be the answer? Will Allah accept that answer? Muslims, non-Muslims, young and old, men and women, guilty and innocent were all sacrificed with no regard to human life and no concern for the shame and backlash it will bring to the Ummah, Islam and da'wah! Is this foolishness and barbarity something to be confused about? We are responsible for our actions and what they cause. No Muslim who has respect for Allah and His Deen can ignore thinking about the consequences of his actions. Not for something as incredible and terrible as what befell the USA. One of the invocations of the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) was that Allah protects him from oppressing anyone and from the oppression of the others. This act has oppressed many lives and opened the door wide open for untold oppression upon countless Muslims. Whoever has committed this monstrous atrocity has proven by his action to be an enemy of Islam, Muslims and humanity at large. It reeks of Satan and his cohorts. This is clear to us. It is an attack against Islam to say that Islam in anyway justifies murder, let alone highway robbery, piracy and murder of groups of travellers. The Sharee'ah is not ambivalent about their punishment. We do not need a fatwah whether hijacking anything and endangering the lives of travellers etc., are allowed for the cause of Islam or the oprressed people. This is not allowed because we have many text in the noble Quran and the blessed Sunnah not only against that but exhorting us to do the opposite; to be good and to be righteous. We are meant to be believers by virtue of our clean and correct faith in Allah. It is due to Tawheed and strength of faith that we have honour and respect. It is with this faith and hope in His Mercy that we do what we do. Nothing that happened has anything to do with the teachings of Islam. Criminal acts, injustice and falsehood has no place in Islam. Yes, Muslims have undergone unspeakable horror and deprivation for generations at the hands of others. But let us not justify what happened by invoking such accounts. Let us be wise and know when such words can and will be seen as justification. Whoever has done this has attacked Islam. People who endanger the lives of travellers, threaten and murder civilians deliberately are not the friends of Muslims let alone their pious ones! We are sad and angry not only because of what happened but also because Islam itself is now sought to be associated with what it came to eliminate. Our pain is perhaps more than for the average person since both we and Islam are also now the focus of abuse, mockery, slander and at times physical attacks. Muslims and Islam are evidently targeted for venom and propaganda to generate hate no matter who is guilty, but we have to remain firm on the Truth and not lose the values it enshrines and propagates by the grace of Allah. What is wrong is wrong. We should feel disgust to the core of our being for the injustice that has been perpetrated against so many people in the human tragedy that befell the USA. The association of this unspeakable horror with Islam and Muslims was almost inevitable given the circumstances we are aware of to a greater or lesser extent. Our hearts should be heavy and our eyes should be welling up with tears due to the disrepute it has brought to the true and just way of life of Islam and infamy to the Muslims. Da'wah and the welfare of countless people have been jeopardised by this singular act of brutality. Whoever has committed this crime against humanity, Islam and the Muslims are not defensible and must be punished.
NS
09/10/03 at 10:44:18
humble_muslim

Re: Im so disgusted
Nabila
09/10/03 at 14:53:24
[slm] I thought all the legitimate Sheikhs and scholars condemned the attack, saying it has no Quranic basis whatsoever. Why are we debating whether its right or wrong? Wrong is wrong. But I must agree with Umm Wafis post - I dont mean to demean the plight of American lives lost, but rather to highlight other tragedies. (Am I making sense?) People hurt all over the world, why should one set of innocent lives be held to be more important than another? Its this attitude which irks me. ma asalaamah and take care

Re: Im so disgusted
humble_muslim
09/10/03 at 15:26:23
AA I'm sorry lady m, I don't see what you are seeing.  Just because you don't agree with what was done on 9/11 DOES NOT MEAN that you condone what is being done by the kuffar to the muslims, far from it.  We're talking about two entirely different things. As far as I can see, this thread was started by Panjul being disgusted by what Al Muhaijirron were planning.  At no point did she, myself, or anyone else critiiczing Al Muahjiroon make any statement condoning the USA or Israel in thier treatment of muslims.  And I hope no-one is trying to put words in my (or anyone else's) mouth to that effect.  As far as I am concerned, my intention in showing my disgust to what Al Muhjiroon are doing is purely out of my deep, deep love for Islam, and my abhorence at having the magnificent deen, which Allah SWT has out of his mercy ordained for us, being tarnished by them. I cried a lot after 9/11.  Not for the people who died, not for their victims, but for the hijacking of Islam.
NS

Re: Im so disgusted
bhaloo
09/10/03 at 20:45:57
[slm] [quote author=The humble muslim link=board=ummah;num=1063064013;start=15#19 date=09/10/03 at 15:26:23]I cried a lot after 9/11.  Not for the people who died, not for their victims, but for the hijacking of Islam.[/quote] Hijacked? My tears were already used up here: When the women and children cry in Kashmir from being raped and kill. When the women in Bosnia were raped and killed. When the Muslims in Chechneya were raped and killed. When the Muslims in Palestine lost their homes and were killed. When the Muslims in Indonesia were killed and raped. When the Muslims in Somalia were killed. Where was the help from the majority of the Muslims?  Islam was hijacked a long time ago, not on 9/11.
NS

Re: Im so disgusted
Nabila
09/11/03 at 05:53:19
[slm] Just because you don't agree with what was done on 9/11 DOES NOT MEAN that you condone what is being done by the kuffar to the muslims, far from it./b] Sorry brother - but I honestly cant see where I have condoned the so-called 'War on Terror' or any other actions for that matter, thats not the impression I meant to give. I also think that those members of al-muhajiroun, these self styled saviours of the Ummah, should be given some serious da'wah from other Muslims. If an extremist Hindu Group were to celebrate the massacre of Gujurat in the same way, or a Zionist Group to celebrate the deaths of children in Palestine, al-muhajiroun would be lobbying to have the talks censored or banned outright, and to have the lecturers jailed for hate preaching... They can dish it out but cant take it. ma asalaamah and take care

Re: Im so disgusted
tincanman
09/11/03 at 07:41:31
lady_murasaki_sa The Zionists do celebrate our deaths and no one considers our deaths as an atrocity. Who has been arrested for causing our deaths? The people who cause our deaths are named as men of peace. And the thing is a lot of Muslims take this kind of thing, but refuse to dish out anything. Modi came here to London, didn’t he? And he was given a Heroes welcome by Hindu organizations. When actions are done against us, no one calls it terrorism, only the victims are the terrorists. And it has been like this long before 9’11. There has been countless massacres and atrocities before and after 9’11 that were much bigger then 9’11. But they don’t register with anyone. Why? What makes 9’11 different? Countless people say how they cried when 9’11 happened. Did they cry just as much when other massacres were carried out?   What I am more concerned about is the majority of Muslims ignored what was happening to us in Palestine and India. They do not care at all. It is none of their business. They want to perfect themselves first. But there are a few people who fight back to defend Muslims and Islam. Very few. But every one is ready to jump on the band wagon and condemn them. People forget about the need to perfect ones self before doing anything else, when it comes to condemning the Mujahideen and the people who support the Mujahideen. To everyone Now I am going to say some thing that a lot of people felt but no one would like to admit. When I first saw 9’11 on TV. When no one knew what was happening. When people thought it was nine planes and about 50 000 deaths. When no one knew who was responsible. I was filled with joy. As far as I was concerned this was the answer of the dua of billions of people over many decades. When America fights us very few of us step forward in obedience to Allah’s commandments of Jihad. But most of us do dua for Allah to destroy them. Now some thing has happened in America. It could have been us, it could have been them, or it could have been a few drunken pilots having a race. Allah knows and I do not. But what I do know is people all over the world have been praying to Allah to do something to them and that is exactly what has happened. And now that it has happened Muslims are crying about it. When Iraqis babies were dying in their hundreds of thousands and you prayed, what did you think would happen when the prayers are answered? Allah destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of the homosexuality. Every one inside the cities was destroyed. Should we morn their deaths. Did our prophet Lot pbh morn their deaths? What city has More Homosexuals then New York? What other perversions lurk within it? Allah knows! But what we know is sooner or later Allah sends his punishment. It might come from our hands, or it might come from theirs, or it might come from a direction that no one expected. But the punishment of Allah does arrive. Not many Muslims support what the Israelis are doing, what the Hindus are doing and what the Americans are doing by words. But so many of them support it by action. How many Muslims pay taxes that are sent to the Israelis that buy the bullets that blow out babies brains? How many Muslims join the terrorist Armies of America and India? Do the people who condemn the Mujahideen condemn these traitors as well? Now many people quoted Scholars who gave fatwas condemning what happened in 9’11. Now I don’t remember these scholars giving fatwas when much larger amounts of Muslims were killed then who died in 9’11. I am going to make an excuse for them. I am going to say I am some one who can’t hear them. So if I could not hear the Ulima of Syria condemning Hafiz Assad when he killed 50 000 Muslims in Huma because they wanted Islamic law then I cant hear what they say about 9’11. If I cant hear what the ulima of Qatar say about their Government giving a giant landing strip to the Americans to bomb Iraq, well I cant hear what they say about 9’11. And I can’t hear what the Saudi Ulima say about the non implementation of full Sharia law in the land of two Musjids so I cant hear what they say about 9’11. I have a real problem hearing what the Ulima say about the regimes that are oppressing their nations with kufr law, may be my ears are not fully compatible with their voices? The main issue the Ulima seem to be quite on is the issue of Jihad. What I mean is, you often hear them say the Mujahideen are vigilantes. This statement also means the responsibility for fighting lies with the Muslim governments and armies. I am not going to agree or disagree with the statement. I am just going to go with it. This means ALL THE ISLAMIC GOVERNMENTS HAVE THE OBLIGATION OF FIGHTING THE AMERICANS, INDIANS AND THE ZIONISTS UNTIL OPPRESSION ENDS. This is not happening. So where is the ulimah’s condemnation of their government’s refusal to fight? Or implement Khilafah? Many governments spend billions buying American and Zionist products and services, while the population avoid spending pennies in McDonald’s. Where is the Ulimah condemnation of this? What it comes to the rules and laws of Jihad every one has jumped on the band wagon and shouts how the actions of the Mujahideen are Harram and the obligation of condemning the Mujahideen and their supporters. They some times bring fatwas from Ulima to support their claims. No one but the Qadyanies say Jihad has been abrogated. So how many of these condemners have actually fought Jihad? How many of the Ulima they quote from have actually fought Jihad? So they have told us what is harram about how the Mujahideen are fighting Jihad so why don’t they lead by example and fight Jihad in a Hallal way? The ulima who fight and support the mujahideen are the only ones worth listening to on the issue of jihad. How can some one understand a subject if they never experience it?

Re: Im so disgusted
bhaloo
09/11/03 at 08:52:06
[slm] [quote author=tincanman link=board=ummah;num=1063064013;start=15#22 date=09/11/03 at 07:41:31]The main issue the Ulima seem to be quite on is the issue of Jihad. <SNIP> What it comes to the rules and laws of Jihad every one has jumped on the band wagon and shouts how the actions of the Mujahideen are Harram and the obligation of condemning the Mujahideen and their supporters. They some times bring fatwas from Ulima to support their claims. No one but the Qadyanies say Jihad has been abrogated. [/quote] I don't think that's true.  Take for example Sheikh Munajjid, he was asked: Question: Is it obligatory for every Muslim to go out for jihad? Or is jihad mustahabb and not obligatory?. Answer: Praise be to Allaah.   Physical jihad is the pinnacle of Islam, and some scholars regarded it as the sixth pillar of Islam. The Muslims have neglected jihad for a long time, so they deserve the punishment of Allaah, to be humiliated, belittled and defeated. That humiliation will never be lifted from them until they come back to their religion as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When you enter into the ‘aynah transaction, hold the tails of oxen, are content with farming, and give up jihad, Allaah will cause humiliation to prevail over you, and will not withdraw it until you return to your commitment to Islam.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2956; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood. [Translator’s note: ‘Aynah transaction means to sell a product for a known price with deferred payment and then buy it back from the purchaser for a lesser price, so the purchaser will still have to pay the difference in the future] One of the strangest things to note is that we are living in a time when some of the Muslims are embarrassed to quote the verses and ahaadeeth on jihad in front of their kaafir friends. Their faces turn red because they are too shy to mention the rulings on the jizyah, slavery and killing prisoners of war. They wish that they could erase these verses and ahaadeeth from the Qur’aan and Sunnah so that they would not be criticized by this world with its backward principles despite its claims to be civilized. If they cannot erase them then they try to misinterpret them and distort their meanings so that they suit the whims and desires of their masters. I will not say so that they suit their whims and desires, for they are too weak to have their own whims and desires, and too ignorant. Rather it is the whims and desires of their masters and teachers among the missionaries and colonialists, the enemies of Islam.” ‘Umdat al-Tafseer, 1/46. The result of that is that we hardly hear anything nowadays apart from the following phrases: world peace … peaceful coexistence … safe borders … a new world order … the calamities of war… Those who proclaim the verses and ahaadeeth of jihad nowadays are subject to a number of accusations. They are called terrorists, extremists, enemies of peace and bloodthirsty, and are accused of wanting to destroy twentieth century civilization. This is the unfortunate reality in which the Muslim ummah is living nowadays. That is because we have given up supporting our religion and doing the duties that Allaah has enjoined upon us. Allaah has commanded us to support His religion and to wage jihad against His enemies. There are so many verses that enjoin jihad against the mushrikeen and fighting them until all submission is for Allaah alone; they clearly state that it is obligatory and is prescribed and is compulsory. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Jihaad holy fighting in Allaah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allaah knows but you do not know” [al-Baqarah 2:216] Rulings on jihad The scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them) have mentioned the rulings on jihad and have stated that jihad is of two types: 1 – Taking the initiative in fighting This means pursuing the kaafirs in their lands and calling them to Islam and fighting them if they do not agree to submit to the rule of Islam. This kind of jihad is fard kifaayah (a communal obligation) upon the Muslims. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allaah), then certainly, Allaah is All-Seer of what they do” [al-Anfaal 8:39] “Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As&#8209;Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” [al-Tawbah 9:5] “and fight against the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah) collectively as they fight against you collectively. But know that Allaah is with those who are Al&#8209;Muttaqoon (the pious” [al-Tawbah 9:36] “March forth, whether you are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor), and strive hard with your wealth and your lives in the Cause of Allaah. This is better for you, if you but knew” [al-Tawbah 9:41] It was narrated from Ibn ‘Umar that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have been commanded to fight the people until they bear witness that there is no god but Allaah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, and establish regular prayer, and pay zakaah, If they do that then their blood and wealth is safe from me, except by the laws of Islam, and their reckoning will be with Allaah.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 24; Muslim, 29. Muslim (3533) narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever dies without having fought or thought to himself about fighting has died following one of the branches of hypocrisy.” All of these texts – and many others in the Qur’aan and Sunnah – mean that it is obligatory for the Muslims to wage jihad against the kuffaar and take the initiative in that. The scholars are unanimously agreed that jihad against the kuffar, and seeking them in their own lands, and calling them to Islam, and waging jihad against them if they do not accept Islam or accept paying the jizyah, is obligatory and has not been abrogated. Shaykh al-Islam (28/249) said: Everyone who hears the call of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to the religion of Allaah with which he was sent and does not respond to it must be fought so that there will be no fitnah and so that submission will all be for Allaah. Ibn ‘Atiyah said (2/43): There remains scholarly consensus that jihad is a communal obligation upon the ummah of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and if some of the Muslims undertake this duty the rest are absolved of responsibility. 2 – Jihad in self-defence. If the kuffaar attack and occupy a Muslim country, or they prepare to attack the Muslims, then it is obligatory for the Muslims to fight them so as to ward off their evil and foil their plots. Jihad in self-defence is fard ‘ayn (an individual obligation) upon the Muslims, according to scholarly consensus.   Al-Qurtubi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Tafseer (8/15): When jihad becomes inevitable because the enemy has overrun one of the (Muslim) regions, then it becomes obligatory for all the people of that region to mobilize and to go out to fight, whether they are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor), each according to his abilities, with or without the permission of his parents. No one who is able to go out, warrior or helper, should stay behind. If the people of that country are unable to fight their enemy, then those in nearby and neighbouring countries have to go out to fight, in whatever numbers are required to show support, so that they will know that they have the strength to stand up to them and ward them off. Similarly everyone who knows of their weakness in the face of their enemies and knows that he can go and help them must also go out and fight. All of the Muslims should be united against their enemies. If the people of the area where the enemy has invaded and occupied fight off the enemy themselves, then the others are relieved of that duty. If the enemy approaches the Muslim lands but does not enter, the Muslims must still go out to confront them so that the religion of Allaah will prevail and in order to protect the Muslim homeland and humiliate the enemy. There is no scholarly dispute on this point. Shaykh al-Islam (28/358-359) said: If the enemy wants to attack the Muslims then resisting becomes obligatory on all those who are under threat, and those who are not under threat are obliged to help them, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “but if they seek your help in religion, it is your duty to help them except against a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance” [al-Anfaal 8:72] And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also commanded us to help other Muslims. This is obligatory upon each person as much as possible, by fighting himself or by giving financial support, as was the case at the time of al-Khandaq, when Allaah did not grant any concession to anyone not to fight. Rather the Qur’aan condemns those who asked the Prophet for permission [not to fight] on the grounds that their houses were vulnerable when that was not the case, rather they just wanted to flee the battle. This fighting is in order to protect the relihion, and protect lives and honour, and this is absolutely essential. This is the ruling on physical jihad in Islam, whether that is taking the initiative to call the kuffaar to enter this religion and subjugate them to the rule of Islam, or jihad to defend the religion and honour of the Muslims.   We ask Allaah to bring the Muslims back to their religion. And Allaah knows best.

Re: Im so disgusted
Nabila
09/11/03 at 10:23:44
[slm] The Zionists do celebrate our deaths and no one considers our deaths as an atrocity. Who has been arrested for causing our deaths? The people who cause our deaths are named as men of peace. Not many Zionists I have heard of have celebrated Muslim deaths in such an open way - do they celebrate our deaths? Probably - but they are not foolish enough to have conferences about it. Agree with the latter part of the statement - the biggest terrorists in the world are still at large, and it aint OBL Im talking about. And the thing is a lot of Muslims take this kind of thing, but refuse to dish out anything. If that is the only way we can fight back, then thats pathetic. Muslims have been blessed with a moral system, why dont we use it instead of lowering ourselves to their level, claiming that one wrong plus one wrong equals a right? Modi came here to London, didn’t he? And he was given a Heroes welcome by Hindu organizations. Modi came here to promote business in the region of Gujurat, not to have a series of lectures trying to justify the massacres. Not that it matters, beause the man should not have been allowed into the country anyway. This is where Muslims fail, every single dam' time. The media is a powerful tool - we should have used it, used it to inform people of what kind of a monster this man is, the way any other minority would have used the media to inform and get results. Its ridiculous that Louis Farrakhan are barred from entering the country, and war criminals can move about freely. When actions are done against us, no one calls it terrorism, only the victims are the terrorists. And it has been like this long before 9’11.   There has been countless massacres and atrocities before and after 9’11 that were much bigger then 9’11. But they don’t register with anyone. Why? What makes 9’11 different? Countless people say how they cried when 9’11 happened. Did they cry just as much when other massacres were carried out?     What I am more concerned about is the majority of Muslims ignored what was happening to us in Palestine and India. They do not care at all. It is none of their business. They want to perfect themselves first. But there are a few people who fight back to defend Muslims and Islam. Very few. But every one is ready to jump on the band wagon and condemn them. People forget about the need to perfect ones self before doing anything else, when it comes to condemning the Mujahideen and the people who support the Mujahideen. What makes 9/11 different is that Americans were killed. A no name family of 10 living in poverty, trying to make ends meet in India/Africa/Afghanistan is obviously not as important. Hypocrisy? YES. Again, why are we not using the media to inform people about the reality? Becuase we prefer to either stay silent and grumble in private, letting the fringe elements do the talking for us (note how elegantly I refrained from the using the word extremist :D) To be quite honest, I fail to see how the mujahideen are defending Muslims and Islam. They are causing some more trouble for Muslims - instead of thinking smart, they are heading down the road of sensationalism, as well as promoting an event as Islamic, when ALL the legit scholars I know of have declared it to be unIslamic. How are they defending Islam? By insulting ordinary Britons who may have lost family in the attack? By abusing their feelings and closing their hearts from Islam forever? This is both non Muslims and Muslims Im talking about. Also, perfeting yourself is a lifetime struggle - if we should perfect ourselves before condeming (and I doubt itll be done by the time I die), are we to assume that the Mujahideen are perfect, and so entitld to making their claims in the first place? Now I am going to say some thing that a lot of people felt but no one would like to admit. When I first saw 9’11 on TV. When no one knew what was happening. When people thought it was nine planes and about 50 000 deaths. When no one knew who was responsible. I was filled with joy. As far as I was concerned this was the answer of the dua of billions of people over many decades If it was your family in there, I think your joy would have been dampened somewhat. The killing of those people, just going about their business - how has it helped things for the Muslim Ummah? 10,000 dead in Afghanistan, Iraq is shaping up to be the same. The taleban are sowly regrouping, it looks to be another bloody decade for the Afghans, who already have to contend with living their lives in poverty. What has this attack done for the Ummah? (Actually, Im assuming that this attack was carried out by OBLs men, for the sake of this argument, but I honestly have grave doubts as to the evidence presented). Not many Muslims support what the Israelis are doing, what the Hindus are doing and what the Americans are doing by words. But so many of them support it by action. How many Muslims pay taxes that are sent to the Israelis that buy the bullets that blow out babies brains? How many Muslims join the terrorist Armies of America and India? Do the people who condemn the Mujahideen condemn these traitors as well? I dont buy Israeli products nor do I plan to join the Brit Army. Again, its not a question condeming traitors, but honestly I dont think people know any better. None of my friends knew about Coca Cola, McDonalds, Marks & Spencers, because we simply do not disseminate the information. They have refrained from buying these products since - and I hear there is a whopping 30% decrease in Cokes profits in Arab countries. Also, I think its putting (for want of a better expression) 'words in Allaah's (swt) mouth' to say such-and-such is definatly a punishment, etc etc. Its presumptuous and something I associate more with evangelical Christianity (God will love you if.... God hates this man because...) than Islam. I think you will agree that there is no Islamic cuntry in the world at this point in time. We all know what kind of restrictions the scholars are placed under, often in fear of their lives, as well as their families'. -- Also, we must be very careful in who we call a kaffir or traitor (I wouldnt dream of calling any Mujahideen a kaffir, astaghfirullah) its a big statement to make and can affect your standing in the eyes if Allah (swt), so I image thats why many scholars refrain from pronouncing statements on certain governments. Also, why do people always pray for the destruction of other nations - I dont mean we should be completely soft and turn the other cheek, but everytime the dua goes, 'Oh Allah (swt) destroy America, destroy the Kaffir, destroy....'' I always thought it would be better to pray for Allah help them to see the right path. The ulima who fight and support the mujahideen are the only ones worth listening to on the issue of jihad. How can some one understand a subject if they never experience it? To get an amputation done, do you go to a legless doctor? :P To cast a slur on all these tradtionally trained, knowledeable scholars is not very fair. How do you know if the scholars who have fought in jihad are trained properly and have the full, correct knowledge to make statements on the subject? I fast during the month of Ramadan, but I certinly could not give you or anyone any one any opinions on any questions you may have unless its something I myself got from a properly trained scholar. Perhaps you only listen to such scholars because they agree with your own viewpoints, reinforcing them? Jazaakhallaah to brother bhaloo for the article, it was very interesting. ma asalaamah and take care

Re: Im so disgusted
humble_muslim
09/11/03 at 13:05:45
AA The reason I put up the article specifically from JIMAS and not, say, from a group like ICNA/ISNA, is that the people who founded JIMAS supported the mujahideen in Afghanistan in the early days, when the fight was solely against the Soviets, to the extent of spending time in Afghanistan.  So I can assure you that the people who put that stuff up know what they are talking about when it comes to Jihad. Here is something fom the ICNA web site : One of our own ICNA website team member Br. Tariq Amanullah used to work on the 96th floor of WTC Tower #2. His remains has been identified by DNA tests on 11/10/2001. His Janazah prayers (funeral) were performed on 11/11/2001. President ICNA, Dr. Zulfiqar Ali Shah joined other several thousand Muslims at Islamic Society of Central Jersey (ISCJ) to console the family of  Br. Tariq Amanullah. I hope no-one is saying that the death of Br. Tariq, who was heavily involved in dawah, was a punishment from Allah SWT.
NS

Re: Im so disgusted
BroHanif
09/11/03 at 13:17:18
Salaams, This thread just shows how much the divide is between each other. In fact I'm surprised that some statements are even on. Yah Allah, save our imaan and guide us on the straight path. Salaams Hanif
NS

Re: Im so disgusted
se7en
09/11/03 at 15:00:28
[quote] I was filled with joy. [/quote] this is sick.  this is what happens when hatred blinds you to commit injustice to others.  this is similar to the attitude of the zionists who find pleasure in killing palestinians..  they feel they have a legitimate grievance too, and they justify the killing of innocent people in the same way it seems you've done. were you filled with joy when Salman Hamdani died?  He was a Muslim med student and an ambulance driver.  How about Muhammad Chowdry, whose wife was nine months pregnant at the time?  Or how about Rahma Salhie, a passenger on one of the planes, who was seven months pregnant?  Were you 'filled with joy' at the thought that her unborn child died before the adhaan could even be called in his or her ears? Think about what it would be like to be the children and family of these people.  What wrong have they committed?  Don't you think Allah swt will ask their killers - for what crime were they killed? [quote]As far as I was concerned this was the answer of the dua of billions of people over many decades. [/quote] uhh.. I don't think so.  I certainly haven't been making duaa for innocent people to suffer in some misguided sense of vengeance by a vigilante party that understands very little about the shari'ah.   our duaas will be answered when the American government witholds its hand from committing injustice and oppression in the world.  Our duaas will be answered when the backs of tyrants are broken and these people are called to account for their misdeeds.   Our duaas will be answered when those in power stop their greedy worship of wealth, forsaking the dignity and basic humanity of their people.  Our duaas will be answered when their emerges in our community people who are not blinded by their bitterness at the condition of the Ummah and instead work in the footsteps of Rasulullah [saw] to fight and struggle against these evil forces. don't cheapen our community's grievances this way and our duaa's. [quote]Allah destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of the homosexuality. Every one inside the cities was destroyed. Should we morn their deaths. Did our prophet Lot pbh morn their deaths? What city has More Homosexuals then New York? What other perversions lurk within it? Allah knows! But what we know is sooner or later Allah sends his punishment. It might come from our hands, or it might come from theirs, or it might come from a direction that no one expected. But the punishment of Allah does arrive. [/quote] So you are saying that all of NYC should be destroyed just as the land of the Prophet Lut (alayhis salaam) was..  man, what about LA then?  There is a lot of perversion there.  What about Riyadh?  Isn't there perversion there also?  Can you name for me one city in the world today that is free from perversion or the sins of people?  What then, all of them should be targeted and all their people killed?  Who determines when the perversion is worthy of being punished?  *You*?   Pretty arrogant an assertion, I think. You repeat again and again in your posts that it is wrong for people to mourn the deaths of those who died on 9/11 and not the deaths of countless others who have suffered.  *No one* here is disagreeing with this assertion.  What people are disagreeing with is *justifying* one wrong by citing another wrong.  We are a people who are supposed to be above this sense of vengeance and hatred.  Don't we know that Allah swt unfolds the future with precision and wisdom?  Is not Allah swt the Most Just?  Do we think He will leave the believers in the lurch and not fulfill His promise of justice?  Why are we continuing a vicious cycle that will do nothing but make us all worthy of Allah's punishment and wrath?   Remember the story of Ali, radhiAllahu anh in battle?  About to kill an enemy, his sword to his neck when the man spit in his face.. and Ali freed him because he feared doing something out of anger, to avenge his honor, and not for the sake of Allah. Are we following Ali's example?  Or that of our enemies? Partial List of Muslim 9/11 Victims: Note: This list is as yet incomplete and unconfirmed.  It has been compiled from the Islamic Circle of North America, the Newsday victims database, and reports from other major news organizations.  The victims' ages, employers, or other personal information is included when available, along with links to further information or photos. Samad Afridi Ashraf Ahmad Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children) Umar Ahmad Azam Ahsan Ahmed Ali Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children) Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran) Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald) Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack) Jamal Legesse Desantis Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan) SaleemUllah Farooqi Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes) Osman Gani Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old) Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet) Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom) Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan) Nabid Hossain Shahzad Hussain Talat Hussain Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan) Yasmeen Jamal Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security) Arslan Khan Khakwani Asim Khan Ataullah Khan Ayub Khan Qasim Ali Khan Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald) Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures) Yasmeen Khan Zahida Khan Badruddin Lakhani Omar Malick Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old) Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old) Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures) Raza Mujtaba Omar Namoos Mujeb Qazi Tarranum Rahim Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old) Ameenia Rasool (33 years old) Naveed Rehman Yusuf Saad Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant) Shoman Samad Asad Samir Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November) Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan) Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust) Jamil Swaati Sanober Syed Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald) Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie) W. Wahid
09/12/03 at 18:00:04
se7en

Re: Im so disgusted
Nabila
09/11/03 at 17:03:55
[quote author=BroHanif link=board=ummah;num=1063064013;start=15#26 date=09/11/03 at 13:17:18]Salaams, This thread just shows how much the divide is between each other. In fact I'm surprised that some statements are even on. Yah Allah, save our imaan and guide us on the straight path. Salaams Hanif[/quote] Ameen. I dont mean this in a facetious way, but I'd be interested in knowing what kind of a reply could be made to sister sevens post. I was certainly speechless when I read it. Jazaakhallaah for that, se7en. ma asalaamah and take care
NS

Re: Im so disgusted
BroHanif
09/12/03 at 02:49:10
Salaams [quote]I dont mean this in a facetious way, but I'd be interested in knowing what kind of a reply could be made to sister sevens post. I was certainly speechless when I read it. Jazaakhallaah for that, se7en[/quote] I thank Allah that my Sis has replied to what I was thinking of and what I wanted to say. Sometimes I'm just too tired to reply to some statements, I find so much hurt and so much pain that I feel its not worth it not only on this board but in the wider world as well. Just this week a man in Indonesia has been sentenced to death his been linked to Azimori the smiling Bali bomber. Between themselves they managed to kill 230 and injure countless others, I can't understand what made him kill the 230 people. Some of his and his legion of dooms crude statements were, "that they were sluts in Bali and were not dressed well, that's why they deserved the bombing they got what they got", what a sick man and those of ilk. It got me thinking that Islam was brought to the Far East by Muslim traders, traders who lived according to the Sunnah and Quran, who had a near perfect character and who above all had such an effect on the indigenous people of the Far East that they pleased with them not to leave them and teach them the way of life, Islam. The muslim traders didn't force people to accept Islam, or any such nonsense as we hear as Islam spread by the sword, but by through character. When they came over there the people managed to breath easily and live easily, Islam broke them from the shackles of tyranny, dispair and injustice and into the service of Allah. Yet today...whose ready to accept Islam, how would the people react to our dawah? what is our efforts of dawah compared to our predecessors?.   In every country of the world there is an embassy for each and every country, within that embassy there is usually a person called the ambassador kind of a representative for the respected embassy. Whenever somebody talks to the embassy (ambassador) they will deliver thoughts on their governments way of thinking and their position on certain matters. Its not an easy position and as you can imagine one that holds great responsibility and authority. You will never find an ambassador of a country that puts his/her country to shame or in a compromised position. In the same way, we are ambassadors of Islam as well, every one of us, every action we do can show others in the world what Islam is about. We can be just in our actions, show dignity, compassion and understanding or we can become wicked, unrepentant, lethargic and cursing others at our misfortunes. Islam is a solution for me, for you and for every one of us, you will never find in the world a system as just, as democratic, with high social values as Islam, never. Its up to us to us, as my Sis said.... [quote]Our duaas will be answered when their emerges in our community people who are not blinded by their bitterness at the condition of the Ummah and instead work in the footsteps of Rasulullah  to fight and struggle against these evil forces[/quote] Thank you once again. Salaams, Hanif.
NS

Re: Im so disgusted
tincanman
09/14/03 at 07:45:23
Bhaloo I think every one should read what you just pasted. lady_murasaki_sa You said: ”Not many Zionists I have heard of have celebrated Muslim deaths in such an open way - do they celebrate our deaths?” If they celebrated each time they killed a Muslim, they would never stop celebrating. Because they never stop killing! They celebrate the creation of Israel, the event the Palestinians call the great tragedy. This day for us marks the forced expulsion of 80% of the population of that land, murders numbering in the 10s of thousands and countless rapes of fully veiled women. And all the presidents and Prime Ministers, join this celebration with them. All of the war Crimes of the Jews are celebrated openly by them. The reason why some people are blind to it is the Zionist media labels them as victory celebrations. So if Muslims choose to celebrate as far as I’m concerned, it’s just a victory celebration. If that is the only way we can fight back, then thats pathetic. Muslims have been blessed with a moral system, why dont we use it instead of lowering ourselves to their level, claiming that one wrong plus one wrong equals a right? Well trying to persuade the only people who fight back against all the crimes being committed against us in the name of moral superiority is something real strange. At this time we the Muslims are the international victims, what ever acts we do in defense of ourselves whether they are right or wrong are just pinpricks compared to the rivers of blood that are spilled against us. So at this time when people decide to attack our actions, is at best dreadfully misguided. Only wolves preach pacifism to sheep that are being attacked. If you disagree with what the Mujahideen are doing, lead by example and show them a Hallal way of fighting back. Right now the main problem that Muslims face is not with the few who fight, it is the multitudes that refuse to fight. ”Modi came here to promote business in the region of Gujurat,” yah right. The conference centre was not the be all and end all of his visit. He has made many statements in the press justifying what he done. The organizers justified what he done. The Zionists justify what he done. The media justifies it, the worst criticism he receives is “heavy handedness” or “inaction” against the anger. But the Muslims are the bad guys. The issue is nothing to do with Modi not being allowed in. Modi was the organizer of the massacre, it was well planed and he is at the top of the pyramid that planed it. The same goes for his friend Sharon. Both Modi and Sharon have the Support of mainstream elements. They are elected rulers, and they were elected for no other reason then their hatred for Muslims. ” What makes 9/11 different is that Americans were killed” What I am referring to was the millions murdered by America and her allies. I am referring to Sept 16. We see countless post here and in other Islamic pages condemning Sept 11. Has Sept 16 been forgotten? Or don’t they matter? There is a reason why the media ignores Sept 16, it is because we are the bad guys, and the babies who were murdered as far as they are concerned are cases preemptive action against future terrorist, and the Women who are raped are women experiencing sexual freedom. “I fail to see how the mujahideen are defending Muslims and Islam” Now the UN and the US helped Israel carry out that massacre. They are attacking with guns and bombs. Only wolves ask the victims to try non violence to stop them. The Mujahideen are the only ones who sleep between us and the knives of the Kaffar. They fight in the front lines while we sleep in bed. We have no right to question them about their iman, as they prove their iman with their blood. “10,000 dead in Afghanistan, Iraq is shaping up to be the same.” Weren’t they killing people in Iraq long before Sept 11? If Sept was the excuse for what they are doing now, what was the excuse for 1.5 million who died due to sanctions? What about the daily air raids that went on before Sept 11? What excuse? They attacked Afghanistan before Sept 11 too, they attacked Sudan and Somalia. So what was the excuse? Its Muslim Blood they are after, if we ever fight them while they are busy killing us they will use that as the excuse for killing us, if we don’t fight back and allow them to carry out their extermination in peace they will make up some other excuse to kill us. “Im assuming that this attack was carried out by OBLs men, for the sake of this argument,” There is only one piece of evidence I need to determine Uthama bin Ladin did not do it, and that is his word. He said he didn’t do it and that is good enough for me. Bush the son of the man who said no knew taxes said Shaik Uthma bin Ladin did it and I don’t trust a word that comes out the mouth of that lying Kaffar. This event has been good for the Ummah, scores of people have embraced the true religion because of this. Whether this was carried out by us or the Jews, this event has told our enemies there is no defense against people who fear only Allah. With no fire arms buildings were leveled. And economies damaged. This is a message that can never be defended against. Who can they bomb to stop attacks like this? What you need to understand is America is not attacking us because of Sept 11. Sept 11 happened due to them attacking us. Cause and effect, don’t get them mixed up. They were attacking us long before Sept 11, and if Sept 11 never happened they would be using some other excuse to justify their attacks against us and some Muslims would still find some way to blame the Mujahideen for America’s attacks against us. ”I dont buy Israeli products nor do I plan to join the Brit Army.” If you pay taxes a large percentage of that funds the British army including the bullets they use in Iraq and the depleted Uranium they pollute it with. America has been hurt by us refusing to drink coke, but the consequences of the mujahideen resisting them in Afghanistan and Iraq, America’s paranoid security measures and the damage done due to the disappearance of WTC and people refusing to use American Airlines has done a lot more damage to the economy that funds world evil. ”Punishment of Allah” When disasters happen they are either a test or a punishment. Most religions including Islam believe this. Now, when some thing happens to holy people, it is assumed to be a test. People should ask for strength to take them through the test. We are told Allah tests those who he loves. Is NY a land of the Holy? Is it a land of chastity or a land of Homosexuality?   If we are punished by Allah we have to ask for forgiveness. Was the WTC a building used to feed and cloth the poor or was it used by multination who bleed poor nations dry? Did businesses there deal according to Islamic business law or Interest? Did the people who work there pay their taxes to the Khilafah or the Great Saton? Was the tax money used to fund the Mujahideen or the Israeli Army? Now every one was busy saying how they have the right to condemn a group of Muslims for a few posters, but what ever you think about bits of sticky paper, there is a lot worst things going on which no one condemns or even notices. ”(I wouldnt dream of calling any Mujahideen a kaffir, astaghfirullah” Let’s get back to why I first posted this. I have been coming to this site for quite a while and without bothered to join. Now suddenly I see some one post an accusation based on no knowledge accusing a whole group of being idiots and their scholars of being Spies. Why? Cause they dare to speak the truth. And they dare fear none but Allah and the dare to say what they think is right. Now you’re saying we must not debt the Scholars who refuse to pronounce judgment on actions which are clearly kufr but it’s this thread and other threads on the board have shown it is completely acceptable to pronounce judgment on the ones who do speak the truth. I have mentioned traitors who joined the US army but there are others who collaborated with the US in Iraq. All the traitors have fatwas giving them permission to do the above actions. So if you are looking for ulimas who are working for the bad guys, it is clear what fatwas they give. Now what happens when ulima give bad fatwas or remain silent? Well look no further then Saddam and the rest of the rulers. They are kept in powers by armies who share our deen but have been given fatwas telling them to do what ever evil they do. If these rulers are going to be removed, the fatwas that are given by the ulima in their pockets have to be dealt with because it is these fatwas that are used by the military and torturers to keep them in power. ” destroy the Kaffir, destroy....” Pray to Allah to guide them. But while the rapist is raping and the killers are killing. Pray that Allah will give our Mujahideen success in their fight to destroy the enemies of Allah. ”To get an amputation done, do you go to a legless doctor?” Jihad is an obligation. It is farad. No one would dream of asking fatwas on Salat from some one who has never prayed or on fasting by some one who never fasts. To understand Jihad you have to understand warfare. Today they have to understand both guerilla and conventional warfare along with the weapons and tactics used. So people who have no understand on what the battlefield is can not be qualified in to what actions should be undertaken there. There are many Ulima who are qualified in this subject. But people who are against Jihad and the Mujahideen just label them as terrorists/extremists. “My Government Scholers said he is not a real Scholer” or “is a deviant” is a common excuse to ignore ulima who speak the truth.

Re: Im so disgusted
tincanman
09/14/03 at 07:46:10
Quote: I was filled with joy. Collateral Damage. America has military superiority. This is paid for by financial superiority. America is a nation that has bombed countless nations. People should understand people are going to hit back. It’s not a good idea to stay in places like that while America behaves the way it does. Quote: As far as I was concerned this was the answer of the dua of billions of people over many decades. Allah has destroyed whole nations before. It has happened many times. And prophets have prayed for the destruction many times. Noah prayed for the Flood and Allah sent it. We are at a state of war with America. This was not caused by us wanting any part of America or attacking her for their evil. It was caused by them attacking us. If the Magnificent 19 actually did what they were accused of, it wasn’t due to Americas Homosexuality or what they have done to us in the past, it is pure and simply to try and stop America doing what it is doing now. If you talk about the Mujahideen as the extremist fringe, the most extreme demand of what they call the most extreme Muslim leader, Amir ul Jihad Shaik Uthama bin Ladin(may Allah preserve him), is “stop killing us”. That’s all. So if Uthama bin ladin did do this, it is just to stop them from doing a Magnitude worse then this to us. Now I don’t believe he did it, cause he said he didn’t, but I agree with his Fatwa that it is lawful, and most people of all faiths agree they have the right to use such means against their enemies, but they will disagree with their enemies rights to use it against themselves. What I mean is bombing cities; this was done by both sides in virtually every war. It is a fact of war. It happens because your enemy’s weapons are paid for by its sources of income, so it is a means of disarming your enemy. The Mujahideen are not blood thirsty; they have many opportunities to create massive carnage in America. The reason why they are not is due only to their respect of Human life. They could have attacked during the power outage, when America had no defense against anything. They refused to due to their fear of Allah. If it is kaffar blood they are after, why don’t they plant bombs during giant demonstrations? The police do not check each and every one in the demonstrations.   If the 19 did do it, they are people who gave their lives for Allah and his deen. Whether you agree with their opinion or not, you have to agree they have made a great sacrifice without the hope of any worldly gain. This is admirable. They fought with their lives in a heroic way. Unlike the cowardly Americans who dump depleted Uranium on our cities. And if the magnificent 19 did not do it, they are victims Murdered by the evil Zionists. ”Remember the story of Ali, radhiAllahu anh in battle?”   No one is attacking America for revenge People are just attacking them to try and get them to stop attacking us. That’s all. If they stop their aggression against us, then they will find Muslims to be the most forgiving of people. Today Muslims are killed every where and by every one. For example here is a list of them killed while praying salatul fajr in the Musjid of Ebrahim. I wish Muslims would shed a fraction of the Crocodile tears they shed for Sept 11. Especial since the Bullets that killed them may have been purchased using the taxes paid by our beloved brothers and sisters in America. Not all the above were killed by Goldstein, don’t forget that the Israeli army fired at people trying to escape the Musjid. The WTC is a major source of revenue for America and America is the biggest source of revenue for Israel as Israel has no natural resources and no profitable Industry. 1. Abdel Rahim Abu Sneineh 2. Abdul Haq Jabari 3. Ahmad Abdullah Abu Sneineh 4. Akram Kafisheh 5. Akram Joulani 6. Ala' Badr Abdul Jalil Taha Abu Sneineh 7. Amjad Abdallah Sandal 8. Arafat Musa Burkan 9. Arafat Mahmoud Bayid 10. Atiyeh Mohammad Salameh 11. Ayed Abu Hadid 12. Ayman Ayoub Qawasmi 13. Diab Karaki 14. Diab Muhtasab 15. Fawaz Zughair 16. Hamad Abu Nijmeh 17. Hatem Qader Fakhouri 18. Ismail Kafisheh 19. Iyad Karaki 20. Jamil Ayed Natsheh 21. Kamal Jamal Kafisheh 22. Khairi Aref Abu Hadid 23. Khaled Halaweh Abu Sneineh 24. Kifah Abdul Mu'az Marakeh 25. Marwan Abu Shareh 26. Marwan Mutluk Abu Nijmeh 27. Mohammed Sadeq Abu Zanoun 28. Nader Zahdi 29. Nimer Mohanmmad Nimer Mojahed 30. Nour Ibrahim Muhtasib 31. Raed Mohammed Natsheh 32. Raji Arafat Rajabi 33. Raji Gheith 34. Saber Katbeh 35. Salim Idris 36. Sufian Zahdeh 37. Suleiman Awad Jabari 38. Talal Dandis 39. Tareq Abu Sneineh 40. Tariq Abdeen 41. Wael Obeid Muhtasib 42. Walid Abu Hamdiyeh 43. Yasser Diab Kafisheh 44. Yazen Abdul Mu'ti Marakah 45. Yusef Hroub 46. Zeidan Jabber 47. Zein Gheith 48. Ziad Kafisheh Our duaas will be answered when their emerges in our community people who are not blinded by their bitterness at the condition of the Ummah and instead work in the footsteps of Rasulullah  to fight and struggle against these evil forces The Mujahideen, their supporters and the parties working to bring back the Allah rule on earth are these people. These are the people who fight evil with prices on their heads. May Allah grant them success.

Re: Im so disgusted
BroHanif
09/14/03 at 08:44:53
Salaams, An an open question to all, had Allah cursed the Muslims of today? NO Are the Muslims the only ones who are suffering in the world? NO Can the Muslims not think for anyone else apart from themselves? NO GET IT OVER IT.  STOP RANTING ABOUT CRAP and learn to spread Islam according to Quran and Sunnah. NOT THROUGH HATE. Salaams Hanif
NS

Re: Im so disgusted
tincanman
09/14/03 at 10:02:58
Salaams, An an open question to all, had Allah cursed the Muslims of today? NO Are the Muslims the only ones who are suffering in the world? NO Can the Muslims not think for anyone else apart from themselves? NO GET IT OVER IT.  STOP RANTING ABOUT CRAP and learn to spread Islam according to Quran and Sunnah. NOT THROUGH HATE. Salaams Hanif I agree stop ranting about Sept 11 and get over it. It’s almost Sept 16, and we are still talking about the few who died in the twin towers while we forget about the multitude that died in the camps. Muslims aren’t the only ones suffering from American oppression. America has invaded and attacked countless nations. It won’t just be the Muslims who shouted Shukir Alhumdulilah when the attacks happened. Ask the Vietnamese and the North Koreans, ask people from all over Latin America. IF Allah destroys that Evil Nation that is built upon the blood of the red man and with the sweat of the black it would be a mercy for all of mankind not just the believers. Yes its time to spread Islam according to Quran and Sunnah and not according to hippies. The oppressors created boundaries to the spread of Islam and our Prophet PBH and his companions rd removed these boundaries with Jihad.The world is full of oppressed people waiting for us to liberate them. Once we fight in the way of Allah and Allah grants us his help people will enter the deen in Multitudes. Yes, it is time to get over the hate some of us have for the Mujahideen and their supporters.

Re: Im so disgusted
Nabila
09/14/03 at 13:38:53
[slm] Someone hates the mujahideen? Who? No one I know of said that. It only been you, daring to call our brothers and sisters 'traitors' and they scholars they follow 'fake'. I Think what the mujahideen did was, to be frank, plain dumb, but I do not hate them. Islam has so many different opinions in it. Properly trained scholars are not 'right' or 'wrong' - they give opinions to the best of their judgement. To cast doubt on their character because the fatwa is not what [i]you[/i] want to hear is in extremely poor taste on your part. Just because they do not follow your scholars/opinions they become traitors to the religion? Thats a very judgemental attitude isnt it? How about learning to fight smart? About making a lasting impression on the world? How about the media jihad, the political jihad? These are the jihads which open hearts to Islam and create allies and a 'mass conciousness'  in which Muslims are wise and chivalrous, not a group of East London thugs who believe, yeah, that, like, the kaffir must die, yeah? Cuz its Izlam, innit? ::) Why do you think Zionists are so well thought of? Because they have the education, and they have worked hard for decades to build their political and media links, and now all they have to do is snap their fingers to get what they want. But no, we need 'instant fixes'; we scream 'Allaah u Akbar' in the streets and preferred to be killed instead of making a real difference. And Muslims living in the West are the worst example of this - we need to make the effort, [i]So if Muslims choose to celebrate as far as I’m concerned, it’s just a victory celebration. [/i] Please read my comments on our moral system and fighting smart. Id be interested in seeing your response to Se7ens post. Lord, I am so tired. We could stay here for years, I doubt any of uis would budge. Im going to do something alot more useful; writing letters to my MP about the shut down of Interpal or something. ma asalaamah and take care

Re: Im so disgusted
tincanman
09/14/03 at 16:00:45
“To cast doubt on their character because the fatwa is not what you want to hear is in extremely poor taste on your part.” It’s a shame that people do not think like this when they attack Muslims who say what they believe is true [East London thugs], or the Ulima they follow. The issue is not whether the fatwa is what “I want to hear” it is whether it is what “our enemies want to hear”. “How about learning to fight smart”, “political jihad” and “media jihad” I have my own words for this. It’s called Biddah Jihad, and Qadyani Jihad. I will start with Political Jihad, as we are living with the consequences of the Political Jihad our brothers and sisters in America fought in the last election. What did they say? “The Jews are all siding with Gore we will vote for Bush”. “We the Muslims will make Bush win!” “Bush’s Victory is a Victory from Islam.” And Bush wan with the Votes of the believer, and he reworded the Jews for his victory. The reason we are killed is only a tiny fraction of us bother to obey Allah and fight in his cause. When the believers fought the British in India the British came up with Qadyani Jihad, it is one where the pen is mightier then the sword. Today this form is broadcasted all over the world so silly Muslims will grab their pens, the Jews will grab their swords, and there will be a battle and guess who will win? There are many times when the kaffar went about killing us and no one claimed the Muslims were in the wrong. The writers writ and the ink was wasted. Cause no one cares. The memories of the atrocities were forgotten as soon as the next football or juicy seen came on East Enders. What Muslims need to understand is ink does not make an impenetrable barrier against bullets and it does not act as a contraception for our sisters who are currently being bought and sold by brothel owners in the land of the first Qibla. When people find out about what the Jews are doing to us, they feel real bad, and then they watch a sad seen in a soup opera and feel worse. What’s on TV whether fact or fiction is just entertainment for every one other then the Mujahideen. Sheep can not stop wolves from eating them by begging them, and Believers can not stop our killers killing us by letters. It’s pointless to think they will stop when you tell them in a letter what they are doing to us, they know what they are doing to us, because they are the ones doing it! The Zionist are successful because they act. While silly Muslims write to MPs, the Zionist shoot our babies.   Now about Muhajiroon. I haven’t been to the event, or asked them about it so I don’t know what it was about. I don’t trust what the Kaffar say about it because they are people who are untrustworthy. Any way, I have seen the posters and can’t see anything wrong with them. They have a verse, pics of our brothers and in the background, one of Shaik Uthama bin Ladin. If these posters and talk encourages just one brother to go Jihad, then it is more Effective then all the useless letters put together. Don’t waste your ink sending letters to dirty politicians, they are the cause of our problems not the solution. Begging the wolves never stops them from biting. Don’t believe the kaffar are oppressing us due to ignorance. They know what they are doing, and that’s why they are doing it. Pay your Zakat direct to the Mujahideen, bullets have a better effect at protecting kids brains then pens, paper and school supplies. What use is filling a child’s head with education if you are going to do nothing to protect it from a bullet that will make it explode? The Christians and Jews will never be pleased with us until we enter their religion. Now if you try and make yourselves cuddly for the Kaffar, they are not going to be pleased with you. They are going to be pleased you have made it easier for them to exterminate you. The Muslims of Bosnia learnt this lesson. Being like the Kaffar did not protect them. Looking like them did not protect them. Politics and Media did not protect them. All politics and media did was politicians verbally condemned the Surb to please Muslim voters while slamming arms embargos on the Muslims. What Protected them was when the Foreign Mujahideen went there to fight. They turned the tide of the war, they grabbed victor from the mouth of slaughter, and they are the people the kaffar label as terrorists. So we have a choice, we can try and show the kaffir we are pacifists. This will help win the media over. They will write nice words about us, because they will like the fact that we are pacifist because it will be easier for them to exterminate us. Or you can win the hatred of the Kaffar by supporting the Mujahideen. They will hate us, but they will know attacking us might results in us attacking them. Turning Baghdad in to ruble does not seem like a good idea if people might do the same to Washington in response. The Kaffar believe only in this life, if they knew taking life can easily result in their own lives being lost, they would not be so quick in murdering.

Re: Im so disgusted
jannah
09/14/03 at 17:03:46
[slm] Looks like this topic's burned itself out..no use prolonging it further. Everyone's view seems apparent. So let's move on inshaAllah. Whoever would like to continue can do so offline (via email or private message). Jazakamullahu khairan.
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