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An interesting interview with Pakstans Man

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An interesting interview with Pakstans Man
BroHanif
09/12/03 at 03:09:16
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3091490.stm

For the full version check out the url
Robin Lustig:
It is, as you know, President Musharraf an issue which creates a lot of controversy in many different parts of the world. One of them is Nigeria, in fact we have a caller on the line from Nigeria, Niyi Olaloku in Lagos. Niyi you wanted to ask about sharia as well didn't you?


Niyi Olaloku:
Yes thank you very much. In addition to what has already been said your Excellency - nice to have you on this programme, it's a privilege. I'd just like to say - what advice do you have for our government, given the controversy this sharia issue has generated and detentions and violence over the past four years? Secondly, I would like to ask in an Islamic state that is trying to be modern, like you're doing in Pakistan, how do you balance this with the issue of westernisation - I mean strike a balance between being modern and not being totally Western, which I feel is part of the concern the extremists have?


President Pervez Musharraf:
As far as what advice that I would like to give to your government, I don't want to give any advice to your government, your government is very capable, the Nigerian government, is very capable of addressing issues because certainly I'm not very clear on your environment. And as I said every environment is different. You need to take action according to your own environment.

But now coming to your main question. I think somehow we are confused about Islam, about sharia, and how it relates to modernism, how it related to secularism, how it relates to democracy. I think let's not be confused about it. Let me say that Islam, in its concept, is the most democratic religion. Islam believes in equal rights to people, it believes in human rights, it makes no differentiation between religion, colour, creed, it believes in human rights. It believes in taking decisions through consensus. An Arabic word of - ijtihad - is one of the basic principles embedded in Islam, that is through consensus. So therefore Islam in principle is extremely democratic and extremely secular I would say.

So therefore any Islamic country or Muslim state does not have to go around calling itself secular because secularism and democracy is embedded in the principles of Islam. We must understand that. So therefore it is only those who don't understand Islam, who belittle this great religion of ours, who don't realise what is the greatness in this religion, who talk about these differentiations. So when I say I am and we are an Islamic republic of Pakistan I strongly believe that we are most democratic and we believe in human rights, we believe in equality of human beings here and giving rights - equal rights to the minorities in Pakistan. All this is embedded in our religion Islam.

May I also add that further greatness of Islam is that there is limits to power, Islam limits power. There cannot be unlimited power in anyone. Therefore, it is more democratic I would say, it is more socially correct. So therefore Islam is a great religion and as we say there is a difference so let me add - Islam is not a religion, it's a way of life. It gives guidance on all issues which I have been speaking of.

So let me again sum up by saying that when we say that a country is Islamic and a Muslim state, we don't have to really bother about defining that we are secular or we are democratic - we mean that we are secular, we mean that we are democratic.


Robin Lustig:
Let me just go back to Niyi in Lagos. Obviously these issues are very much real issues in Nigeria as well Niyi. What do you make of what President Musharraf said on that?


Niyi Olaloku:
I agree totally because he said the principle - Islam stands for democracy and secularism but I guess it's an issue of interpretation and application. For example in Nigeria, Nigeria has been independent close to 40 years now, and just recently - four years ago - the issue of sharia became a burning issue. It was more political than really religious because I have friends in the north and I asked them about sharia and they tell me it's not an issue to them and it's not really a big deal so to speak. But it's more a political undertone underlying the hype and all the imposition on people - it's not really the way to go. So I begin to ask myself if Islam stands for consensus, for democracy, there's something wrong, the leaders are just trying to use it for their own political ends and I get confused.


President Pervez Musharraf:
I would like to add here, may I because this is an important issue, although there's no question but two things that I want to say. When I said that Islam is more democratic than democracy, in the social justice that it ensures that powers are limited, no person can be - can go beyond certain powers, beyond certain riches even. So therefore there is more social justice in Islam.

The other point that I want to make and this is on the comments that the gentleman again made. That unfortunately what I'm saying is the real value of Islam. It is certain uneducated elements, the projection of Islam unfortunately, the practice of Islam is at variance from these realities. So therefore we need to project the right image of Islam, which is not being done. So therefore what the world sees in practical shape is very different to what actually Islam is.

So we need to bridge this as Muslims, I personally feel the Muslim world and the Muslim religious scholars owe it to the greatness of Islam to make the Muslim world, first of all, act in accordance with the dictates of Islam - the real dictates, the real values of Islam - and project these real values outside in the practical shape of its application in all the countries. I can tell you the confusion arises because what is actually the value of Islam is maybe not being practised by extremists - the extremists are projecting it in a different light.


Robin Lustig:
Well here's a very practical question for you Mr President, it comes from the United States from Farooq Ibrahim, who says: I am an apostate from Islam and desire to visit my home country of Pakistan. What sort of security and protection can there be for me and my family when we visit Pakistan. I fear for my life and those with me.


President Pervez Musharraf:
I think if his home state is Pakistan and he wants to come back to Pakistan and he's talking of all this - maybe he has never come to Pakistan. I take it for granted that it's the first time he's coming back to his country.


Robin Lustig:
Why do you say that?


President Pervez Musharraf:
Because he says that I want to come back to my country, so that means he has never come back to the country until now, that is what I presume.


Robin Lustig:
The issue is really as somebody who describes himself as an apostate from Islam can he be confident that he would be safe in Pakistan?


President Pervez Musharraf:
Let's come to the main thing whether he comes for the first time or not. Now he needs to come and see the environment of Pakistan. There are no bullets flying around and bombs exploding everywhere. This is the unfortunate perception which is so far from reality. Whoever comes here, any western person from the West - I've met so many, so many delegations who come here - from the United States, from the West - and they all invariably say that we didn't know that the environment here is so good.

I mean it's unfortunate that the perception of Pakistan abroad is so bad and the reality is so different here. I would tell this gentleman you must come back to your country and see for yourself, have confidence in your country. Unfortunately there are people who lack that confidence in their own country. You must have confidence in your own country, that we have all the resources to run a country very well. We are a safe country, we are a progressive dynamic nation which is on the rise. Please have this confidence, come back to Pakistan and see for yourself.


Robin Lustig:
We'd better take another call. Majid Hussain is here in London. Majid hello.


Majid Hussain:
Hello good morning. Good morning Mr Musharraf.


President Pervez Musharraf:
Yes, good morning, how are you?


Majid Hussain:
I'm very well. I would like to ask you - since an increasing number of Muslims in Pakistan have seen what sham democracy and real democracy have brought to the nation in terms of further corruption and mismanagement of their affairs, there's now a greater desire for the establishment of the Khilafah political system or Islamic state with strong support for many political parties such as Hisb-ul-Tehreer, the Islamic Liberation party, can you see an emergence of the Khilafah system in Pakistan? And additionally to that point does the recent crackdown in the armed forces, does this show that Islam is gaining ground and in fact you cannot trust anyone anymore since even your own generals do not support you anymore?


President Pervez Musharraf:
Majid before I get the President's response to that you'd better explain for those viewers and listeners who don't know what a Khalifah system is exactly what it entails.


Majid Hussain:
It's the political system of Islam, the Islamic state generally referred to, which existed up until 1924 which the President refers to as Kamla Ataturk who dismantled that. So the political system of Islam which lasted for over a thousand years.


Robin Lustig:
Okay thank you. President Musharraf.


President Pervez Musharraf:
Okay. No I would like to clarify the clarification that he's given of Khilafat. Khilafat existed in the earlier stages of Islam, when the four caliphs ruled Islam and spread Islam. That was the real Khilafat. And when people talk of going back to Khilafat they're talking of that Khilafat or the first four caliphs of Islam. They're not talking of the Khilafat of the Ottoman Empire and all that because they were - that was not ruling the whole world, there were Islamic countries other than under the Ottoman Empire.

So I would say that there's no chance of going back to Khilafat really. Khilafat requires certain environment in a country. It demands a lot from the nation, from the government. It demands that everyone, the entire country - its masses, its people - should have social justice. They must have at least the minimum requirements that are required of life, they must not be wanting in food, shelter at the minimum.

So these have not been fulfilled by any of the Islamic states, I would say, for all its population. So therefore imposing the Khilafat then the entire environment has not been created for it, is totally a Utopian idea. We cannot go back to Khilafat unless we've created a certain environment. And now we are living in the 21st Century, after all what was Khilafat? Khilafat ensured social justice and equality, freedom to the people. And now in this 21st Century through a democratic dispensation you can achieve the same goals, you are moving towards what the caliphs did in the earlier part of the Muslim era. So therefore I think there is no such thing as going back in the 21st Century - the environment is not at all available to go back to Khilafat.

Then the other part - this is an extreme view that the gentleman took that the army - the crackdown in the army, there are just about three people who were arrested and interrogated because their affiliation may be - they are backing certain extremist al-Qaeda elements who have been taken and they are under interrogation. This army is an army of 500,000 by the way and such things keep happening, they were happening even much before al-Qaeda, some extremist elements, often are emerging and we used to interrogate and take military action against them.

Now based on this saying that none of the generals is with me, I must be the poorest commander if none of my generals are with me. I've spent 40 years in this uniform and I'm proud to say that I've always commanded from the front. I have been in the front and I have always commanded from the front. I have led from the front through personal example. And let me tell you all my commanders are with me totally - every general is with me, every man down to the sepoy is with me and behind me - let me assure you that. There should be no such misperception that anyone is against me.


Robin Lustig:
There is an e-mail I'd like to read you Mr President from New York, it comes Amber Hameed who asks: Why is it that crimes against women in Pakistan have not decreased since you took office? Is it because you are afraid of the radical Mullahs in the government who want to impose Islam on people, especially Pakistani women?


President Pervez Musharraf:
Not at all, I wouldn't that it has decreased. I don't know, I've no way of judging. I would say my estimate is yes, neither has it increased nor has it decreased, it is at the same level. However, the question is not of my being afraid. I would like to act against anyone who perpetuates any crime against women, really. But I cannot do it myself, I need certain law enforcement agencies, I bank on the judiciary of Pakistan. Now that is where the problem arises - it's the law enforcement agencies, the administrative set up, the judiciary which needs to deal with cases where such actions - such violence has been perpetrated against a woman, that is where the problem is. The problem is not with me - that I am not scared of anyone.So therefore it's not the question of whether I am scared or not, I'm not scared. We have laws in place, those laws have to be implemented. Unfortunately, it's the implementation part which is faltering and that is being improved, we are trying to improve it.

Now what we have done really, what I have done, what my government has done, we have empowered women - that is the root to their salvation, the root to their emancipation. Let us empower the women. And we have done that through the political system in that we have ensured - we have given one third of the seats at the local government level to the women of Pakistan. And similarly at the national assembly there are 20% seats to them. At the moment there are 72 women sitting at our national assembly out of a total of 342. And let me tell you for your information, 44,000 women today are holding political offices at various tiers of the political government and this may be an example for the whole world. This is empowering. Now having empowered them they, I'm sure, will ensure their own emancipation, their own protection, they must do it and I encourage them to do it. This is what we are doing and this is the future.


Robin Lustig:
But on the issue specifically of violence against women in Pakistan you are saying that it's because the law enforcement agencies and the judiciary are not vigorous enough in applying the existing laws that these attacks are continuing at the rate that they are?


President Pervez Musharraf:
Yes they are not vigorous enough, they ought to be more vigorous. And secondly it's a mindset you see, this is a feudal society - feudal environment - that we are dealing with. We need to educate our masses more. We need to address all the social sectors. And through that the route forward - it's a changing of mindsets, it's a changing of the minds of the thought process of people who think that male members - I would say that it's a male chauvinistic society. I wouldn't say that it's only in Pakistan, it's in all developing countries of the world, so we are not the only ones. We are afflicted by the same problem of a mindset of a male dominated society. We need to remove it through empowerment of women, we need to remove it through better education and addressing the social sector. I mean this is the only way forward.


Robin Lustig:
I want to read you this e-mail if I may Mr President, it's on a topical issue. It comes from here in London from Ghazanfar Iqbal who says: Recent comments by the Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, and his Indian counterpart Mr Vajpayee confirm they are pressing for an anti-Muslim alliance with the USA. What do you plan to do in response? Is it time to build a Muslim military/political alliance to counter this?


President Pervez Musharraf:
No, no not at all. I don't think they are meaning to create an anti-Muslim alliance. And if they are in Israel and United States are doing that it's extremely sad I would say. But if they are trying to unite to create an anti-Muslim military alliance it's the saddest day in the history of the world. I think this ought not to be done and I don't think Israel and the United States is doing that at all.

Now whether you are saying whether we would like to counter it with a Muslim military alliance - not at all, I think what we are trying to do is to bring this two pronged strategy that I spoke of, that is the route forward and that is the part that we would like to take.


Robin Lustig:
Do you believe though Mr President that the visit to India by the Israeli prime minister is potentially threatening to Pakistan's interests?


President Pervez Musharraf:
Well it's extremely - the people here are taking it very seriously. We are watching whatever is happening and whatever statements are coming from across the border and I think it's a very sensitive issue. I only hope that the leadership in Israel, Prime Minister Sharon, understands the sensitivity of Pakistan to whatever happens between Israel and India. And I hope he is a straight man enough to understand the sensitivities of Pakistan and take all measures to address our sensitivity and maintain a degree of balance in relationships.


Robin Lustig:
We're nearly at the end of the programme Mr President. I just want to return to the way in which we started. We started by talking about the relationship between Islam and the West, you've spoken a great deal about Islam and change Islam and modernity. Do you believe that the tension is actually more between Islam and modernity than it is between Islam and the West?


President Pervez Musharraf:
I think in Islam we believe in balance. Islam is a religion that believes in balance. I think while we would not like to be westernised, we certainly ought to be modernised. We ought to have a modern approach to development, modern approach to progress and enlightenment. But certainly we would not like to be westernised.

We would like to learn from the West but we have our own social compulsions, our own social guidelines which we would like to adhere to. And these social guidelines are very balanced guidelines and I think they are right, they are correct, and that is what every Muslim wants to follow. We would like to follow our own Islamic social code and not give them up for westernisation. And if you are calling modernism as westernism, yes I would like to differentiate, we would not like to go on to the social westernisation. We would like to address all issues in a modern way. I don't see a conflict.


Robin Lustig:
And on that note we must end because we have run out of time. President Musharraf thank you very much indeed for being with us on the programme. Thanks to all of you who have been part of this programme. Don't forget you can keep sending us your e-mails to talkingpoint@bbc.co.uk. And you can visit our special website at bbcnews.com/Islam, where you can watch or listen again to this programme, and contribute to our debates on Islam. There'll be more programmes on related topics over the coming weeks, so try not to miss them. But for now, from me Robin Lustig, Goodbye.

NS


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