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Question on Rumi?

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Question on Rumi?
Anonymous
09/13/03 at 23:34:24
salam

probly a stupid question but was just wondering - was rumi muslim? i dont mean what do
others say about him (fatwas/angry indictments) and im not asking for discussions of his
dodgier writings, but wat did HE say he was? because ive read some of his stuff saying
things like "Im beyond Islam" etc...but at the same time he uses phrases like "unbelief and
Islam". first i thought maybe he was just like khalil gibran - originating from muslim
lands but not muslim, now im just confused.

can someone help please?
Re: Question on Rumi?
jaihoon
09/14/03 at 03:35:51

:D

he was a Muslim.
Re: Question on Rumi?
rajullunyas-aa
09/15/03 at 15:54:08
[slm],
he belienved he was amuslim and if you carefully and sincerely  study his life and teachings objectively without any biass, you will testify to that your self.
masalaam
Re: Question on Rumi?
momineqbal
09/16/03 at 03:21:35
[slm],

Mawlana Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi lists him in his books series as one of the great revivers of Islam in his time. I don't really know much on Rumi, apart from what I read in Mawlana Ali Nadwi's book. I somehow have a feeling that both the people who latch on to him to put forward their "apology" for Islam, the so called "progressive muslims" that is, and people who denounce him, quote him very selectively. But again, I do not know much on it to comment any more than that.
Re: Question on Rumi?
Anonymous
09/16/03 at 03:51:11
salam

heres 1 of the sources of my confusion:

Why think thus O men of piety
I have returned to sobriety
I am neither a Moslem nor a Hindu
I am not Christian, Zoroastrian, nor Jew
I am neither of the West nor the East
Not of the ocean, nor an earthly beast
I am neither a natural wonder
Nor from the stars yonder
Neither flesh of dust, nor wind inspire
Nor water in veins, nor made of fire
I am neither an earthly carpet, nor gems terrestrial
Nor am I confined to Creation, nor the Throne Celestial
Not of ancient promises, nor of future prophecy
Not of hellish anguish, nor of paradisic ecstasy
Neither the progeny of Adam, nor Eve
Nor of the world of heavenly make-believe
My place is the no-place
My image is without face
Neither of body nor the soul
I am of the Divine Whole.
I eliminated duality with joyous laughter
Saw the unity of here and the hereafter
Unity is what I sing, unity is what I speak
Unity is what I know, unity is what I seek
Intoxicated from the chalice of Love
I have lost both worlds below and above
Sole destiny that comes to me
Licentious mendicity
In my whole life, even if once
Forgot His name even per chance
For that hour spent, for such moment
I’d give my life, and thus repent
Beloved Master, Shams-e Tabrizi
In this world with Love I’m so drunk
The path of Love isn’t easy
I am shipwrecked and must be sunk.

sigh. I suppose it mus be a figurative thing. jk 4 ur replies.

ws

Re: Question on Rumi?
jaihoon
09/16/03 at 06:13:53
[slm]

When Rumi says 'muslim' along with other co-religionists , he is referring to the namesake muslims who are bound by the cultural norms, than their religous convictions.

cf. "Every baby is born in fitrah. It is his parents that make him him a jew, christian or a fire-worshipper' -  [saw]

or Iqbal when he says

"Amal se zindagi banti hai, jannat bhi, jahannam bhi
Ye khaki apni FITRAT mein na noori hai, na noori hai"

Besides, the identification of oneself with the Beloved is  common in persian poetry.

- jaihoon :)

Allah knows best.

Re: Question on Rumi?
hayat
09/16/03 at 06:36:42
[slm]

[quote]or Iqbal when he says

"Amal se zindagi banti hai, jannat bhi, jahannam bhi
Ye khaki apni FITRAT mein na noori hai, na noori hai"[/quote]


could u pleeease translate that one? jzk

wassalam
hayat
Re: Question on Rumi?
jaihoon
09/16/03 at 07:29:02
[quote author=hayat link=board=bookstore;num=1063506864;start=0#6 date=09/16/03 at 06:36:42] [slm]

could u pleeease translate that one? jzk

wassalam
hayat
[/quote]

Life is made of actions,
so is paradise, so is fire
This creature of clay in its NATURE
Is neither of light nor of fire
Re: Question on Rumi?
hayat
09/16/03 at 07:45:20
[slm]

wow marvellous nice indeed  :) shukran

ws
hayat
Re: Question on Rumi?
Nawawi
09/18/03 at 15:00:53
One the Shuyukh i take knowledge from, Said, Rumi was a Shaykh in Hanafi Madhab,  and that he had reached the level of Ijtihad in the Hanafi Madhab.  So he is no doubt a Muslim.

I think the confusion comes because alot of non-Muslim read his poems and like his poems.  So you probably see him as part of the flower power movement, the hippies.
Re: Question on Rumi?
bhaloo
09/18/03 at 22:47:05
[slm]

Anonymous you bring up a very good point.  Personally I find his poetry offensive.

This is the 1st i have ever heard anyone claim that Rumi was of the hanafi madhab let alone a shaykh of the hanafi madhab!!!!!!!!  

Here is brother Shibli's (shibli@zaman.net) comments on Rumi (I  cleaned up the post, as it may offend a certain group):

Anyone who is familiar with the work of Rumi (which the kuffaar
love so much because it talks about lust and wine) knows
well that his master and mentor was Shams-e-Tabriz , probably the most
famous Isma`ili missionary in history. Shams was killed by Rumi's son for his influence over his father. Rumi's two famous works are the Mathnawi called "Qur'an-e-Farsi" (The Persian Qur'an, wa-l `eeyaathu
billaah), and the other "Diwan-e-Shams" which is a copious and filthy
ode to his master, Shams-e-Tabriz. I was asked about Rumi a while
back and here is an excerpt from the response I gave:

In the 10-11th centuries their gnostic secret rituals involved wine
drinking, reveling, among even more licentious practices I will not
mention. In Farsi, Rumi's words of devotion to Shams-e-Tabriz, "Ey
Mufakhar-e-Deen, Shams-e-Tabreez! Jaan wa dil-e-man tara ghulaamet", are words of complete "Ta`a" which are for Allah and His Messengers
(`alayhim as-salaam) alone. If you read Rumi's work in Farsi you will
find it much more offensive than what you find in the English
translators diluted versions.

Also in the 47th couplet it says:

"You closed your eyes, meaning it's time to sleep; It is not sleep, that
upon your enemies heap...Yet hurried are your eyes, drunken, deadly,
deep. You do me wrong, but that is your treat; Your mistakes, like God's
grace, I gladly greet...Alas, my eyes are a sea of blood...Sometimes
bloodthirsty, some messenger of God; sometimes a cup-bearer, some wine, red as blood. WHAT IS A CUP-BEARER AND WINE, IF NOT DIVINE; God only knows, what for is this love of mine. In the kitchen of heart we can
wine and dine..."

These are not appropriate words. The argument of symbolism is also erroneous as this makes no connection to piety whatsoever even to the poetic minded. Had there even been an attempt at spiritual allegory, such symbolism is absolutely impermissible in Islam. I have just mentioned two small quotes from an ocean of  (this phrase was edited by me, as were a few other phrases, didn't want to start a mini-war on the board.  ) contained in the works of Rumi.

His renowned works of Diwan-e-Shams (dedicated to an Isma`ili missionary) and Mathnawiya (called the Qur'an of Farsi, wa-l `eeyaathu billaah) have absolutely no value to any Muslim who is concerned with Qur'an, Sunnah or the traditions of Islam.
09/18/03 at 22:49:34
bhaloo
Re: Question on Rumi?
jaihoon
09/19/03 at 03:52:53
[slm]

compare the above remarks with the words of Syed Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi (rahmatullah aliahi), the late scholar (who needs no introduction for his scholarship and credibility)

"Rank of Mathnavi
**************

The Mathnavi is one the greatest mystical poems which has left a lasting and indelible mark on the thought and literature of the Islamic world.

It would be no exaggeration to claim that there is hardly any other literary composition, which has so influenced the Muslim peoples and that too, for such a long time. The intellectual and literary circles have been drawing inspiration from the Mathnavi from the past six hundred years.

In poetic merit and originality of ideas, in sublimity of thoughts and intensity of feelings, in the raptures of love and ecstasy, the Mathnavi has proved to be an unexcelled literary composition. It is an inexhaustible treasure, ever shedding its brilliance and bringing to light new ideas and thoughts, styles and diction. The dialecticians and doctors of doctors of religion have ever since have been drawing upon the Mathnavi to solve the problems of dialectics through its direct and understandable method of solving these issues. The examples through which Rumi has solved these problems can still satisfy the critical minds of the intelligent youths.

Most of all, the Mathnavi enjoys to this day the widest popularity as a manual of guidance for those want to be infused with a fervor of Divine Love, passionate devotion and spiritual enthusiasm by gaining access to the mystical subtleties of beatific visions and illuminations, and the esoteric meanings of the Path, Love, Yearning and Union.

The Mathnavi has yet another achievement to its credit- and that belongs to recent times. When materialism began to make inroads to Islam for the second time during the 20th century under the cover of western thought, producing an inclination to disbelieve everything beyond the ken of senses, the Mathnavi was able to withstand he the intellectual onslaught of advancing materialistic west. It again lit the flame of faith in Revelation and inculcated belief in the reality and the unlimited possibilities of the spiritual and the unseen world. Many western educated Muslims have acknowledged the debt they owe to Mathnavi in rediscovering the true content of faith. The greatest Muslim thinker of present era, Dr. Sir Muhammad Iqbal owed his gratitude that he has imbibed the inspiration of faith and love, inner warmth of spirit and the effervescent dynamism of action from the Mathnavi of his spiritual mentor, Jalaludhin Rumi.
"The man of penetrating insight, Rumi, my mentor;

The caravan enchanted with love got in him a pathfinder.

He has an abode higher than the sun and moon,

Of the Milky Way he makes his canopy’s string.

With the light of Quran, his bosom radiates;

His mirror (of heart) puts the cup of Jamshed to shame.

Rejoicing notes of that musician, pure of heart,

Within my bosom make a tumult start."


Misuse of Mathnavi
***************

No work of nature, as the Mathnavi is, can be free from faults or can remain beyond criticism. It has not been not so unoften that the misguided mystics have taken advantage of Rumi’s views, or the people with a pantheistic bent of mind have employed certain quasi-erotic expressions used in the Mathnavi for the defense of existentialist monism.
The Mathnavi is, after all, a literary composition by a human being who was neither infallible nor in a position to avoid his intentional knowledge and spiritual illumination being influenced to some extent by his own propensities and inclinations of mind and extraneous impressions.

Despite these human failings, the Mathnavi excels the literary and poetic works on the subject in its boldness of approach, variety of ideas and wealth of expressions."

*paraphrased from Saviours of Islamic Spirit Vol. I by Syed Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi.

- Jaihoon  :)
Re: Question on Rumi?
jannah
09/19/03 at 04:16:58
[slm]

I really don't think literal logical people should be reading poetry as if it is some kind of islamic law book or treatise or even essay.

How can you explain something that describes one's eyes as a sea of blood, like what does that mean??? and why isn't a cup-bearer and wine divine? Surely they are both from Allah and both may even represent something else.. like the one who teaches knowledge is the cup-bearer and the wine (knowledge) both are holy. Seriously there is wine in jannah and we will ALL be drinking it.. are those Hadith and Quran wrong (astaghfiruallah) to mention those things... in poems it's just a different realm.

[quote]These are not appropriate words. The argument of symbolism is also erroneous as this makes no connection to piety whatsoever even to the poetic minded. [/quote]

If you actually read the whole poem and understood it, it might really have something to do with piety. But why cut and paste a few verses out of context, and out of the framework of poetry to do some kind of logical??? analysis.

[quote]
Had there even been an attempt at spiritual allegory, such symbolism is absolutely impermissible in Islam. [/quote]

That I need to see evidence for, because we can see spiritual metaphors throughout Islam and in the Quran.

Robert Frost once said that poetry was the only medium where a person can say one thing, and mean another.  It's all a matter of interpretation, words and what words mean, what they represent, what are metaphors for what, what things evoke feelings and so on. People who do not read poetry will NOT understand poetry because it's just completely different and secondly people should NOT read poetry outside of the poetry framework and frame-of-mind..
09/19/03 at 04:33:18
jannah
Re: Question on Rumi?
Nawawi
09/20/03 at 13:26:13
[quote author=bhaloo link=board=bookstore;num=1063506864;start=0#10 date=09/18/03 at 22:47:05][slm]



Also in the 47th couplet it says:

"You closed your eyes, meaning it's time to sleep; It is not sleep, that
upon your enemies heap...Yet hurried are your eyes, drunken, deadly,
deep. You do me wrong, but that is your treat; Your mistakes, like God's
grace, I gladly greet...Alas, my eyes are a sea of blood...Sometimes
bloodthirsty, some messenger of God; sometimes a cup-bearer, some wine, red as blood. WHAT IS A CUP-BEARER AND WINE, IF NOT DIVINE; God only knows, what for is this love of mine. In the kitchen of heart we can
wine and dine..."

These are not appropriate words. The argument of symbolism is also erroneous as this makes no connection to piety whatsoever even to the poetic minded. [/quote]

Some people take the words of wine and drunkenness and equate it to the literally meaning of it.

However if one is a muslim and trys to understand what this person might mean by it.  Finding an excuse for his brother.

One might say.  Well the key word is drunken?  If you look at most people who are drunk or alcoholics they usually drink to escape the realities of this world(for example money problems etc etc).  Thus it (drinking) brings them a state of happiness.  And it is the wine that makes him drunk.

Allah says in the Quran, Have taqwa and Allah will teach you.

In an authentic hadith the Prophet said, "I am just a distributor (in reference to knowledge from Allah) and it is Allah who gives (understanding).

The drinking of wine is symbolic to the knowledge one receives directly from Allah.  

And becoming drunk is symbolic to the state that one feels, as well as how people are judging him.

For example, someone may have just lost his, job, his wife and children.  Yet He smiles.

This person would be considered out of his mind.  Some would say to him, what are you smoking, you just lost your job, your wife and children and you are smiling.  Are you sick or something.

Well perhaps he has reached a level where he sees everything that he experiences comes from Allah (and it does in reality).  And Allah says in the Quran, Nothing but good comes from Allah.  Perhaps Allah has showed him, or gave him and understanding of how losing his job, his children and his wife as something good. So he is smiling.

Imaam Nawawi reports in His book Busstan ul Arifeen, That Imaam Shafi said,  A son of Al Husayn ibn Ali died but he did not display any sorrow over his loss,  He was criticised for that.  he said, "I am of the people of the house of Allah.  We ask Allah, and He gives us.  If He wills what we dislike in what He likes, then we are content."


Husayn Ibn Ali was a companion.  And he was content with what Allah has decreed.  Some would considered such an action as mad, or that such a person may have been on drugs, or even drinking, to show no signs of being sorrow.  

So being drunk and wine it can relate to piety, if taken metophorically, if one tries to seek and understand it.

I mean in all reality don't we want to reach a state where we are always smiling in the face of calamities.  Don't we all want to understand what Allah is bringing us through.

Mushineen, sees everything that comes from Allah as blessing, even thou the common person may see it as a form of trials and tribulation or hardship. And Allah knows best.

And the writer's comment,
[quote]
this makes no connection to piety whatsoever even to the poetic minded.[/quote]

I wonder how many poems has he read or studied.  I personally write poetry, and anything in poetry can relate to anything.

Some poetry are meant for a certain audience.  Perhaps it wasn't meant for him as a reader.

And Allah knows best.

But that is my opinion of his poetry.
Re: Question on Rumi?
bhaloo
09/20/03 at 16:02:26
[slm]

First the wine in Jannah does not cause intoxication, so I don't know why that analogy was used.

[quote author=Nawawi link=board=bookstore;num=1063506864;start=0#13 date=09/20/03 at 13:26:13]
One might say.  Well the key word is drunken?  If you look at most people who are drunk or alcoholics they usually drink to escape the realities of this world(for example money problems etc etc).  Thus it (drinking) brings them a state of happiness.  And it is the wine that makes him drunk.

Allah says in the Quran, Have taqwa and Allah will teach you.
[/quote]

Being drunk, a state in where you have lost all your senses can not be compared to having taqwah.  This is a strange analogy that you are making.

[quote]
The drinking of wine is symbolic to the knowledge one receives directly from Allah.  

And becoming drunk is symbolic to the state that one feels, as well as how people are judging him.
[/quote]

Drinking wine is haraam, and doing this haraam action leads one to being drunk, a condition in where he/she  has lost all their senses and oblivious to the problems around them.  They have lost all their senses.

But  Allah (SWT) says:

“The believers are only those who, when Allaah is mentioned, feel a fear in their hearts…” [al-Anfaal 8:2]


When we read the Quraan, what sort of state should our mind be in?  
One in where we have lost all senses and don't know what is going on, or one in which we are attentive and deeply ponder the meaning behind the verses.  Its pretty clear, this is why being drunk and wine are such poor symbolism to be using, not to mention these very acts are haraam.  
Re: Question on Rumi?
knowledge_seeker
09/20/03 at 17:24:50
[quote author=bhaloo link=board=bookstore;num=1063506864;start=0#10 date=09/18/03 at 22:47:05
well that his master and mentor was Shams-e-Tabriz , probably the most
famous Isma`ili missionary in history. Shams was killed by Rumi's son for his influence over his father.

These are not appropriate words. The argument of symbolism is also erroneous as this makes no connection to piety whatsoever even to the poetic minded. Had there even been an attempt at spiritual allegory, such symbolism is absolutely impermissible in Islam. I have just mentioned two small quotes from an ocean of  (this phrase was edited by me, as were a few other phrases, didn't want to start a mini-war on the board.  ) contained in the works of Rumi.

[/quote]

Assalamu Alaykum,

How does this person know Shams was Ismaili, I thought very little was known about him?



Re: Question on Rumi?
jannah
09/20/03 at 18:14:26
[quote]
Just wanted to clarify a few questions so that in future I can post according to the constitution of the board.

Recently a post was curtailed for the reason that the topic "sufism" is banned in the constitution.

- Why are posts on ihsan and tazkiya allowed for those 2 things are synonyms of sufism?

- Posts which crticize Rumi and Ibn Arabi, going to the extent of calling one or both kafirs, are allowed, whereas posts which try to answer the allegations are not? If a post for sufism is "about sufism" then so is a post against sufism. Since both are on the same topic that is banned, both should be removed, no?

- Imam Nawwawi wrote "Bustan al arifin" (Garden of the Gnostics) which is a book on "sufism." If a post qouted that book would that post be removed? If so, then some works of Imam Nawwawi are banned because they are on sufism?
Abdullah ibn Mubarak wrote a book on "zuhd" w hich again was the early word for sufism. Hamza Yousuf's shaykh Murabutal Hajj has written on tazkiya/sufism. It seems to me that the shahada bookstore would have to be shutdown if you ban this topic.

So what exactly is banned? Since a lot of posts on the topic are allowed, I am confused as to is the constituion applied only in some situations or is the topic sufism not banned?
[/quote]



Thank you for asking the question. Sometimes it is difficult to understand what is meant by the rules in the constitution in practice.  To answer:

What is banned is bashing and prolonged discussion (which is really just arguing back and forth) on Islamic groups as a whole… (ie. Sufism, Tablighi Jamat, HT, Wahabism etc etc etc)

For example if someone posts <this group> is wrong because of <blah, blah> or if they post <this group> is the only group that’s right in Islam because of  <blah, blah>. Similarly making takfir on a group or person  is also banned. For example saying <this person> is a kafir because <blah, blah>.

Tazkiyah and Ihsan posts are not discussions on  “Sufism” as a “group” or as an idealogy so they are ok. Discussion of ideas or Islamic concepts without bringing the group into question is fine as well.

In this particular thread, the first poster was sincerely asking a question and then the discussion turned into one about poetry or certain kinds of poetry. I did not think that the discussion was about whether or not Rumi or anyone else was Muslim, it was about the poetry I thought.

I don’t remember a thread where anyone else was called a kafir. If such existed, yes they should have been removed or locked as well.

If there is a specific question you have on a thread in the past, please let me know inshaAllah.

Re: Question on Rumi?
Anonymous
10/08/03 at 13:44:16
salam

oh gosh i'm sorry - didnt mean 2 cause so much trouble. you see i basically took rumi's
words literally in a couple of his writings when he talks about transcending islam and all
that, and assumed he wasnt muslim. worse i told someone else he wasnt muslim. then
suddenly i got scared and thot maybe i'd done something awful...thot i'd post and ask. aah this
is so bad :(

my impression is rumi's stuff is a bit like omar khayyam - timeless and swooped on for a
whole host of interpretations. dangerous often. (Theres an exposition of his Rubaiyat
whose intro says Khayyam "loved God but never embraced any formal religion" - a common
mystic exclamation. they may mean it as praise but sometimes could be slander of course) al
ghazali (may Allah have mercy on him) says (maybe in the discourse of philosophers'
confusion but nt sure) you can interpret a poem any way you want - theres nothing wrong with
that and only Allah and His messenger (pbuh) have the right to "correct" interpretation.
that opens a whole other debate - about the ethics of writing, wats allowed and wats not...i
mean islam's a lot stricter where other faiths are more lenient when it comes to wording
and allegories. has to be, else it couldnt be preserved and you end up with a situation
like christianity - countless different bibles with infinite interpretations. a single
word can make such a difference...all depends on culture or wat they call "the eye of the
beholder" of course...which is why writers need 2 be soo careful. only timeless things are
Quran and Sunnah. and then we muslims dnt believe in "superfluous" writing - like, this
is religious stuff and i've gt 2 be careful, and this is non-religious, its "just" poetry,
or "just" a story, so its ok i can use all the patterns/expressions/methods of d many
authors on the market, muslim/non-muslim.

but a full explanation of these ethics is up 2 scholars. is 2 much 4 me so i'll stop.
again i'm reeeeealy sorry everyone - didnt mean 2 break any constitution rules/offend
anybody. i wanna repent now - aah i made takfir! i never thot i would do that! :(


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