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Is he really *over* it?

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Is he really *over* it?
Shahida
09/23/03 at 07:25:26
[slm]

I read the wedding story that Jannah put up in the Ummah centre...

It is really, mashaAllah, wonderful how the story turned out, and I wish the couple the best.

But, this is something that really bugs me to no end!  If a person "falls in love" with someone, and they make plans to marry without involving their families, and then things don't work out...how can you be sure that he is "over" her?  (ok, so it's a rhetorical q, I don't think anyone can answer that anyways...)

There is a story I know:  A neighbour of ours had a girlfriend at university.  When he qualified, he approached her parents for marriage.  They refused outright.  The girl refused to go against her family.  A few months later he ended up marrying a lovely Muslima, and they were happy together.  She had no idea of his past relationship, or that he wanted to marry someone else.  About a year later, their baby girl was born and they named her Imaan, cuz that was the husband's favourite name.  A few years past, and in a fit of rage in the midst of an argument between mother-in-law and daughter-in-law, the mother-in-law told the wife that her son had only married her because he could not get to marry the other girl!  And to show that he still loves her, he even named his first daughter after the girl...Imaan...

She was wrecked.  Would it have made a difference if he had told her?  Would it have made a difference if he didnt happen to name the baby the same name as his ex-girlfriend?  Should she have just accepted it and moved on?  Was she silly for feeling angry and upset, and doubting her husband?  Was it an unconscious wish to be closer to the real Imaan, that he named his baby that?  How could he tell that what he was doing was without any connection to his ex?

Well now...I dunno really, Allahu a3lam...

A thought that keeps haunting me is that he should not have had that girlfriend in the first place...would have saved the whole situation...

So ppl, my little rant...no point really.  Many people say that I am idealistic to expect people to save themselves (even emotionally) for their spouses.  In this community, perhaps that is true...

Hoping that there are Muslims out there who do though, inshaAllah...

Salam
Shahida
Re: Is he really *over* it?
Ruqayyah
09/23/03 at 08:18:16
[slm]

[quote]Many people say that I am idealistic to expect people to save themselves (even emotionally) for their spouses.  In this community, perhaps that is true... [/quote]

Sometimes things don't work out like maybe you thought they would.

I think the prevalence of young adults, at least in this country, who have been prevented from getting married to the person they wanted to b/c of parental refusal is probably pretty high, even among non-muslims. I know at least 3 couples that this has happened to. And in all 3 it was a race issue. And I really think quite a few of the couples go about getting to know each other in somewhat of an Islamic manner, like thru school or the MSA or myna camps or through friends. It may not be the typical or traditional way where suitors line up to ask for the girl at her house.

What about men who re-marry after their wife has passed on or who take a second wife? They've been completely immersed in an emotional, physical, and spiritual relationship, but perhaps that's different than what you're talking about.

I think the guy naming his daughter after his first love is a bit "Kuch Kuch" esque to say the least, although Imaan is a beautiful name. And why is the mother in law butting her head into this matter and making things worse?? It really is not her place to tell her about her son's past, esp if the woman is already married to her son!

I also think that this brings up a good point. I think it's a good q to ask prospective spouses whether or not they've been in a relationship before. I think that's something they have a right to know about.

Ideally it would be nice to have your first love be your last love  :-* But reality doesn't always measure up.

[wlm]
ruqayyah
Re: Is he really *over* it?
UmmWafi
09/23/03 at 12:41:46
[slm]

I think the whole problem lies in our understanding of the idea of love itself.  So many of us (and I stand guilty of this too) equate marriage to love and love to the need to always be with the one we love.  That in itself creates a situation with a lot of explosive possibilities.  Problem with such a definition is that we forget one fundamental truth.  We none of us belong to anyone.  We only belong to Allah SWT.  That Allah has Selected a spouse for us shows His Mercy and Grace and thus we must utilise that gift to increase our faith to Him.  

LOL....I know I sound like a coldblooded missionary but that is about as far from the truth as can be.  I too fell in love and in consequence, tasted the beauty and pain that come with it.  However, I am very very lucky because marriage now to me is more about forming a trusting and sincere partnership for a lifetime journey headed towards the One.

I dont regret any of the experiences (well maybe some :) ) because as wise people down the ages always say "What don't kill you only make you stronger".  For me, all my laughter and my tears are resources for me to draw upon when my son and daughter some day come to me and ask me "Ummi..what is the meaning of love".

I will begin by saying "Sweetheart, there is one eternal Love....." Inshaa Allah.

Wassalam
Re: Is he really *over* it?
theOriginal
09/24/03 at 00:07:23
[slm]

That's awful.  What is wrong with the mother-in-law.  (My friend says that it takes a good woman to be a good mother, but it takes an exceptional woman to be a good mother-in-law....)  But how about giving the bro the benefit of the doubt?  I mean maybe he really did like the name Imaan...It's a beautiful name, y'know?  Okay that didn't help.  

Man, and I SO know what you mean about living an ideal.  But I can see the other point of view, too.  I mean this guy might have seriously thought that he was going to marry his girlfriend, and so he didn't emotionally save himself.  And it didn't work out.  (Talk about a TEST! SubhanAllah)  

I mean everyone makes mistakes.  I just recently read this article, and I realized how many people make the mistake that your friend's husband made.  Doesn't make them bad people, it makes them really human.  Especially when they realize their mistake, and sincerely feel sorry about it.  I know a woman (about my mother's age) who was dragged to the wedding hall kicking and screaming, literally, to get her Nikkah done.  I was about 8 years old at the time, and I found it absolutely fascinating.  Of course, I didn't hear the story until quite a few years later...but to make a reeeeally long story short, she didn't get married until her "boyfriend" -- I guess I should add an "ex" before it -- arrived and begged her to marry the guy she was engaged to.  Talk about low self-esteem on the part of the husband.  Good news: they're actually really happy.  3 kids, Masha Allah.  (I know, it was actually meant to make you laugh, even though it's a TRUE story)

But anyway, any love based on "omg i love him/her" is not really love...it's "love."  (Yes, I realize I didn't make the distinction quite clear.)  People look for love, but they find "love" instead, and they get kind of euphoric, like when the Russians wanted to scare the Japanese, so they sailed halfway across the globe (thanks to our lovely Imperial Mother who didn't let them cross the Suez), and when they got there, the Japanese fled, so they became EUPHORIC  :-X, which was wrong, because they forgot to brace themselves for the upcoming fall.  And oh my oh my what a fall it was!  In retrospect, beautiful really...but I guess that's a politically incorrect statement.  

Sheesh.  Time to go to sleep.

Wasalaam.
Re: Is he really *over* it?
Ruqayyah
09/24/03 at 11:52:47
[quote]But anyway, any love based on "omg i love him/her" is not really love...it's "love."  [/quote]

To borrow an expression from a friend, that's the "hoopty glitter" kind of love where you're really just blinded by it and you don't see reality for what it is. The reality of what that "love" is based on and the intentions behind it.
Re: Is he really *over* it?
Halima
09/24/03 at 12:26:32
[wlm]  Sisters!

Hmmm..... When it comes to marital issues, I am completely JADED.  As a result, I always avoid to comment on posts related to marital issues except to wish sisters and brothers who are getting married the very best.  I wish them the very best because marriage is something beautiful, ordained by Allah (SWT) and Rasulullah (SAW) and everybody who wishes to go through it should do so.  

Sis Shahida wrote:
[quote]A thought that keeps haunting me is that he should not have had that girlfriend in the first place...would have saved the whole situation... [/quote]

My sister, I don't think he could have avoided having her first simply because he met her before the girl he married.  But I think he should have told her about his past relationship and why it did not turn out the way he wanted.  He could also have consulted his wife about naming their daughter after an ex (whatever).  This would have prepared her for the naughty/cruel mother-in-law and the hurtful words she uttered.

Sis Ruqayyah wrote:
[quote]I think the prevalence of young adults, at least in this country, who have been prevented from getting married to the person they wanted to b/c of parental refusal is probably pretty high, even among non-muslims. I know at least 3 couples that this has happened to. And in all 3 it was a race issue. And I really think quite a few of the couples go about getting to know each other in somewhat of an Islamic manner, like thru school or the MSA or myna camps or through friends. It may not be the typical or traditional way where suitors line up to ask for the girl at her house.  

What about men who re-marry after their wife has passed on or who take a second wife? They've been completely immersed in an emotional, physical, and spiritual relationship, but perhaps that's different than what you're talking about.[/quote]

Sis Ruqayyah, many people still habour residual feelings, especially when they fail to marry the person they wanted or a spouse dies.  In the case of failing to marry the person one wanted, the rejected person will always hold some hope even after marrying someone else.  I have seen this and it eventually destroys the marriage because of the the inability to let go of emotional baggage.  Same goes for a spouse who looses another spouse through death.  Only the strong willed puts a closure to bygones and moves on with a clean concious.

Sis UmmWafi wrote:
[quote]LOL....I know I sound like a coldblooded missionary but that is about as far from the truth as can be.  I too fell in love and in consequence, tasted the beauty and pain that come with it.  However, I am very very lucky because marriage now to me is more about forming a trusting and sincere partnership for a lifetime journey headed towards the One.

I dont regret any of the experiences (well maybe some  ) because as wise people down the ages always say "What don't kill you only make you stronger".  For me, all my laughter and my tears are resources for me to draw upon when my son and daughter some day come to me and ask me "Ummi..what is the meaning of love". [/quote]

Sis UmmWafi, you made me smile here.  I got the eerie feeling that  you were talking about me!  I know the stories are polls apart considering our different worlds and backgrounds but sometimes there are astonishing similarities too.  But you are braver than me and for that, I salute you because I assume you remarried (if not forgive my assumption, please).

I am divorced but the two things that I will NEVER EVER regret about my failed marriage is MY CHILDREN. They are worth every pain that I went through.  And everyday, I say ALHAMDU LILLAH TO ALLAH for them.  But tying it again (marriage), I don't think I can or I want to.

Not every marriage is a failure.  Not every marraige is a pieace of cake.  But I know people who have strived hard to keep their marriage intact.  I know people who have put past hurts behind them and moved on.  I know people who have enough respective for the one they have married not to let past relationships colour their current relationship bad.  And I know people who have gone through hell in their marriages but are strong because of that today.  And the people I know are both male and females who have gone through the different stages I have mentioned.

So, it is not one-sided.  There are females who are equally worse and I am sometimes dumb founded and ashamed of how really, really bad we (females) can be.

Relationships are not easy.  Nor straight forward.  There are no standard operating proceedures for them either.  The best one can do is PRAY to ALLAH and find your own module for making it work for you.  

Sorry, Sisters.  I am certainly NO authority on relationships.

Halima
Re: Is he really *over* it?
humble_muslim
09/24/03 at 14:54:42
AA

The thing that really strikes me here is the lack of intelligence in the mother-in-law.  As the Prophet SAW said : "Let him who speaks either say good or remain silent". And also : "He who covers the fault of a muslim, Allah will cover his faults on the Day of Judgement".  However, in certain muslim countries, it has become the norm for the mother-in-law to daughter-in-law relationship to be a fighting one, rather than a peaceful one.  And ultimately, that is the problem, that is there is still a lot of jayillah in our countries/communities.
NS
Re: Is he really *over* it?
Fozia
09/24/03 at 15:12:35
[slm]

I may be the only one in this, but I don't particularly care about my husband's past, so long as he doesn't drag it along with him to the present.
What I'm trying to say is, so long as he treats me well who am I to question his past, as long as he's repented for his sins I'm not going to question him about them.....

I think we've been bought up in a really idealistic way, certainly I have I guess, it's the effect of living in the west. We expect to love first then marry. But in my experience doing it the other way round is much better. I suppose in some cases unrequited love can mean that one party will end up with tihs really idealistic picture of his lost love and it can cause problems. The husband should have been a little more considerate in his choice of baby names. As for the mother-in-law well I've read that Shaitaan loves the person who causes a rift between husband and wife....

If this makes no sense let the mods remove it, I think I'm coming down with flu :(.... May just decamp to my ummi's..... but she doesn't have broadband what to do :'( :'( :'(

Wasalaam
Re: Is he really *over* it?
siddiqui
09/24/03 at 17:29:21
[slm]
I have seen both sides of the issue (brothers as well as sisters)

a)It could be a matter of a HE/SHE emotions good or bad correct or wrong past or present isn’t gender bound rather its’ a human issue .It could and has happened both ways

b)The Past CANNOT be erased it’s a factual thing which has already taken place in space and time.

c)It’s the PRESENT that matters and it’s affected by how one can deal with the past, do you want it to disrupt your present by letting the past affect you? Or can you handle the fact that the past is a reality but so is the present and happiness lies in making of most what one has at present rather than crying over spilt milk.

d)How much to divulge? How much to reveal? What is Personal space? These answers are contextual as well as individual. Some people believe that the past is past and the person is accountable to Allah swt only ,while others believe it’s the spouse’s right to know ,there is no single right answer.

e)Then comes the mental maturity of the people involved. As I was telling some one who was taking about their past “I know you are a human being and emotions and memories are hard to forget but there is way of balancing things. The past can remain in one little corner of your heart and you can fill the rest of it with the present”. Some people with ‘emotional baggage’ can also choose to do absolutely stupid things like referring back/comparing the present to the past without realizing that these are two separate incomparable entities one that is a distant unachievable memory the other a living truth. On the other hand the spouse on the receiving end of this relationship can choose to handle it likewise, The more mature responses I have seen range from “so long as it is over I don’t care” to “I understand your hurt, what we share now is special and lets spend our efforts in making it work” to the immature”How could you cheat me? How can I ever trust you? You have used me? You are mine and mine only? I want to keep the track of what you do where you go…………………..”

f)Then we have people (amply described in the original post) who are out to play mischief and break things up

g)I have seen happy as well as unhappy marriages of both brothers and sisters who have had a ‘past’. The happy category included those who choose to reveal as well as those who chose not to reveal it to their spouses.

h)And the unhappy marriages are those where people take their present spouses for granted and do not WORK towards making the relationship a happy one the ‘past’ is just one of the many factors.

i)Would I marry some one with a past? Sure as long as the person commits to the future.

Do I expect the person to forget all those emotions? No, as long as it can be lived with and handled with the context of the present.

Would I want a person to tell me their past before marriage? No I don’t need to know (unless if a transmissble medical condition is involved).

Would it make a difference in our relationship if my partner told me of her past? YES& NO
NO: My love and respect will not decrease for her.

YES: I Might be of some help in healing those wounds Inshallah if she wanted to.


“EK LAFZ E MOHABBAT KA ADNA SA FASANA HAI, SIMATHE TAU DILE AASHIQ BIKHARE TO ZAMANA HAI”

“THE WORD/CONCEPT OF LOVE HAS A VERY SIMPLE STORY,IF ONE CHOOSES TO RESTRICT IT THEN IT’S THE HEART OF THY BELOVED BUT IF YOU CHOOSES TO LET IT GO IT MEANS THE WHOLE WORLD”.
In the end I would like to remind my self that it’s foolish to look for
perfection when I am imperfect living in an imperfect world. Why restrict
love to a heart/past when it is big enough to accommodate the world. I
need to the make most of what I have that is the present rather than
messing it up with the past which I have no control NOW for this life is
too small to think other wise. The most important thing is “Yah Allah you
are the master of the hearts minds and souls Happiness lies with you, Take
my matters in your hands and guide me to bliss, for if not verily I will
go astray. Make me be thankful to what you have given me and make me be
thankful to my spouse who you have chosen to share her life with me“ Ameen
[wlm]

[wlm]
09/25/03 at 08:07:11
siddiqui
Re: Is he really *over* it?
se7en
09/25/03 at 03:42:06
as salaamu alaykum,

okay leaving aside whether a brother can ever get over his first interest or not...

how can you name your first child after 'the other woman'?  ???  

I can understand being interested in someone and not having it work out; I can maybe even go so far as to understand harboring some residual feelings from that, because you didn't keep emotional distance in that first relationship.. but naming your child after her?!  

that's just wrong.  I find it totally insensitive and just *mean*.

don't do it brothers, even if the first sister you were interested in had a beautiful name  >:(

wasalaam
Re: Is he really *over* it?
UmmWafi
09/25/03 at 05:48:29
[quote author=Halima link=board=sis;num=1064312738;start=0#5 date=09/24/03 at 12:26:32]
Sis UmmWafi, you made me smile here.  I got the eerie feeling that  you were talking about me!  I know the stories are polls apart considering our different worlds and backgrounds but sometimes there are astonishing similarities too.  But you are braver than me and for that, I salute you because I assume you remarried (if not forgive my assumption, please). [/quote]

[wlm] Sis Halima

Thank you for the very honest and thoughtful post.  Indeed, I write in riddles sometimes that I allow myself to be misunderstood.  For that I truly apologise.  I am not divorced and certainly not remarried :) However, from my own life experiences and my work in the past, I have come across marriages in all conditions and states.  Alhamdulillah those experiences have made me more aware of my own blessings and shortcomings.

I find that anyone who can go through a divorce and still retain her beautiful soul (as I have seen you many times display) is truly a very strong person.  I admire women in almost all situations where they find they have to cope in the name of sacrifice.  My aunt didnt divorce her husband when he decided to take a second wife..after 6 children and having low income.  She kept thinking that her husband is close to my cousins so she sacrificed her happiness.  Everyday, to prevent my cousins from hearing her sadness, she would immerse her face into a bucket of water and cry and shout as much as she can so as to ease the pain.  Some people say she is stupid because she stayed on but I have always thought she is the bravest woman I know.  She stayed not because she didnt want divorce but because she felt that was the best for her children under that circumstances.  Allah Rewarded her and she has happily gone for Hajj and is at peace now.  I always told her that maybe for me, I would have acted differently but still, I admired her courage.

For women who opted for divorce, I hav the utmost respect and admiration for their willingness to brave all the effects which they know they will.  Its not easy being ostracised by society and not easy to have people looked upon u askance.  I have seen some of my clients facing that, yet they still soldier on, feeding their children and making sure they become good people.  I admire them for having the belief in themselves that they can do it alone.  

Alhamdulillah...I am glad that you have your children to provide that love in your life.  Yes, I too have been blessed tremendously with my two children.  Which is why in last year's Ramadan diary, people write abt spirituality and I write abt my children's mutiny  :-/

I think what is most important in a relationship is not some kind of a packaged booklet on what is right and what is wrong.  Rather how we see ourselves in terms of understanding our role as Allah's Creations and how we re-align every single aspect of our lives back to Him.

Here is a toast to life and love....as Given and Commanded by Allah SWT.

Wassalam
Re: Is he really *over* it?
Shahida
09/29/03 at 09:27:45
[slm]

I *totally* understand where you al are coming from.  It was not clear in my original post, but what I was referring to were not the following situation:

-men remarrying: of course we expect that he was emotionally involved with his wife, inshaAllah (else I feel sorry for both of them!)

-men who were previously engaged/ had previously made Nikkah and gotten to know the girl, but things didn't work out for some reason.

And even though I know it is entirely possible for people to "fall in love" while busying themselves on the MSA etc...

I STILL THINK that the situation should not arise, where 2 people, who have not consulted their families and made things known, get so heavily involved (even emotionally) with each other.  The case I spoke about, the girl had *no* idea that the guy had ever even had a crush on anyone before her...I just think it is unfair.

So he was involved with someone.  Maybe they should have told her?  Maybe it would have influenced her decision to marry him? maybe not? Allahu a3lam.

Wasalam
Shahida


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