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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Question about modesty and chastisity? |
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| Anonymous |
| 09/24/03 at 14:38:07 |
| Hello people, Forgive my ignorance about Islam, I am of a hindu origin but was brought up in U.S.A. So, I have almost 0 knowledge about Islam. I would like to ask a question due to my confusion about a situation : There is a girl in my class (at college), she is a muslim and covers her hair, I have read that it is due to the modesty and chastisity rules in Islam, which is reasonable. But then again, she also has make up and lipstick on her etc. I don't understand that, if she is trying to be chaste then why is she wearing all those things which are considered provocative? Please feel free to enlighten me about this issue :) thanks in advance. P.S. : I was going to ask her this, but felt that may be I would embarrass her if I do and may be it would be rude to do so... So I ask this here :) Thank you again...may allah be with you |
| Re: Question about modesty and chastisity? |
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| se7en |
| 09/25/03 at 02:20:34 |
| Hi anonymous :) Hmm well the thing is hijab is not supposed to completely *annihilate* your femininity - it's just meant as a sign of modesty and that you want people to deal with you, and you with them, above the superficial and on a more honorable level. some sisters have some style in how they dress - like wear a scarf that matches their outfit, wear some jewelry, etc. or do other things that may seem attractive. there is a really wide range of diversity in terms of practice and comfort levels among people, influenced by a lot of different things from background, culture, ethnicity, personal taste and style, understanding and knowledge about the religion, etc. hmm hope that's helped you some :) peace :-) |
| 09/25/03 at 12:05:58 |
| se7en |
| Re: Question about modesty and chastisity? |
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| faisalsb |
| 09/25/03 at 02:54:04 |
Well that's very traditional question what is often asked about different controdictive practices of muslims. First of all we must keep in our mind that no person on this earth is PERFECT all of us have one weakness or other. Secondly our practices not necessarily reflects what we believe in or what religion we follow. Since you are a hindu so I think the example what happened in Gujrat, India is a good example to explain the issue. Thousands of muslims were butchered by hindus but does it prove that hinduism preaches killing of people belong to other religions? According to my knowledge about hinduism, that's not true since I know many hindus are vegeterian and they don't believe even to kill animals for their survival so how that religion can allow killing of innocent people. Same way some muslims might not be following Islam fully or have certain practices which are not based on Islam, in fact which might be contradictive to Islam. As per my knowledge muslim women are not allowed to show their ornaments or beauty to strangers. They are supposed to cover their whole body including head, in the way that their body parts are not exposed particulary the parts which draw sexuall attraction. Their are different opinions either they are supposed to cover their face, hands and feet also but generally it is considered OK if they keep their face, hands and feet uncovered. Allah knows the best ........... |
| 09/25/03 at 02:54:52 |
| faisalsb |
| Re: Question about modesty and chastisity? |
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| Nomi |
| 09/25/03 at 22:18:30 |
| Hi anon! btw you do know what anon means right? Let me tell you n e way, anon = anonymous and you can get rid of this label by registering here :) which some say is a pain but few of us coughlUCidcoughHimYcoungh have even registered twice, so i'm sure you wont find any difficulty in registering inshaAllah :) [quote author=Anonymous link=board=madrasa;num=1064425088;start=0#0 date=09/24/03 at 14:38:07] I have read that it is due to the modesty and chastisity rules in Islam, which is reasonable. But then again, she also has make up and lipstick on her etc. [/quote] and let me thank you for being so open minded and saying Hijab is reasonable and it is for obvious reasons. I'm happy that you said that. As for her wearing lipstick! erm... you can probably ask her that how does she pray wearing that? i mean if she is wearing lipstick or nailpolish then she wont be able to complete her wudu (cleansing before prayer) and without wudu we Muslims can't pray!! You can do a big favor to your friend by asking her this. Do keep us posted, preferably as a member :P. [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=;action=register]Click here to register[/url] Take Care |
| Re: Question about modesty and chastisity? |
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| Tesseract |
| 09/25/03 at 22:44:34 |
| Assalamu 'alaikum, [quote]some sisters have some style in how they dress - like wear a scarf that matches their outfit, wear some jewelry, etc. or do other things that may seem attractive.[/quote] Isn't it something like that one of the purposes of hijab is NOT to look attractive or gain attention when around men? |
| Re: Question about modesty and chastisity? |
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| se7en |
| 09/25/03 at 23:27:45 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah, that's open to a lot of interpretaton. what is 'attractive'? wearing a scarf that matches your outfit? feminine colors? a ring or bracelet? the operative definition of hijab is that it is clothing that covers everything but the hands and face, that is not extremely glittery and eye catching, is not transparent or tight, and is not in imitation of a man's way of dressing. anything outside of that is gray area that can be open to different interpretations and opinions. Allahu a'lam. wasalaamu alaykum :-) |
| 09/25/03 at 23:28:40 |
| se7en |
| Re: Question about modesty and chastisity? |
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| amatullah |
| 09/26/03 at 18:06:31 |
| ??? I don't think it is that open to interpretation but I would like to read some scholarly views that state otherwise. The operative definition you give is only for clothing, and i doubt that it is comprehensive. The beauty of hijab is in its ability to veil beauty. It is not a matter of how relative "what is attractive" is. There is a halal and haram in a dress code for us. Anything within the halal by all means we can pick whatever we want. I don't believe wearing make-up in public is one of those halal things. If there is valid shcolarly view opposing this please post it. se7en said: "anything outside of that is gray area that can be open to different interpretations and opinions." I think it is gray area if major scholars have differed on it. opinions and interpretations happen, but they don't make for the ruling/definition of some issue. Anon all i can say is that no one is perfect, we all are Muslims some do more than others this is not nec. a reflection of their piety though. Sometimes when people know better, they do better. Other times, they may have certain hang-ups, insecurities, etc that they struggle with. |
| Re: Question about modesty and chastisity? |
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| jannah |
| 09/27/03 at 05:13:05 |
| [slm] well amatullah believe it or not i've heard other views.. besides kajal too...a minority for sure but from their own mouths. i think makeup has some very heavy connotations in some cultures. i know in the subcontinent it's seen as a 'loose' sort of thing on uknowho's and people who are looking for attention--kinda like we'd see a halter top and tight skirt... so it's seen as a very provacative thing. so the thing is there's already a value embedded in the question: "why is she wearing all those things which are considered provocative?" but i think to many women, make up is covering up imperfections like blemishes or marks and trying to look as normal as possible. real makeup is for someone to not realize it's there. as to it's permissiblity again.. consult ur trustworthy scholars inshallah |
| Re: Question about modesty and chastisity? |
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| bhaloo |
| 09/27/03 at 05:51:48 |
| [slm] Anon is asking about someone that wears "lipstick" and "modesty". How does that become a "grey area"? He's not asking about someone that is using make up to hide some skin problem. As Dr. Siddiqqi, former ISNA president said: " Islam wants to develop in its followers, both males and females, a mindset of modesty, moderation and simplicity. When Muslim women go outside their homes, especially in mixed gatherings, then they should be more careful about their appearance. Their appearance should not be to show off or to invite the glances of men towards them, but to keep their own dignity and honor. They must guard the purity of their own selves as well as the purity of the society around them. Muslim women in America frequently go to their Islamic centers and mosques, and we actually encourage them to do so, because this is necessary for their own and their family's Islamic education, but they must come to the Islamic centers in very modest Islamic dress and appearance." [quote] Anon all i can say is that no one is perfect, we all are Muslims some do more than others this is not nec. a reflection of their piety though. Sometimes when people know better, they do better. Other times, they may have certain hang-ups, insecurities, etc that they struggle with. [/quote] I agree. |
| Re: Question about modesty and chastisity? |
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| Anonymous |
| 09/29/03 at 13:39:05 |
| I too have a problem trying to understand the many contradictions that women are presented with and find themelves in...all too often willingly. Nowhere is it written in the Koran that women must cover their hair or beauty! And in all fairness...some have no aesthetic beauty to cover anyway!Many members of my family are Muslims (Middle East and Afrian origin) and many of my friends are of Asian-Mulim descent and culturally, there are some similarities but many diffs to varying degrees. My Muslim firends in London wear make-up, wear tight jeans, low tops and some even run around the corner after leaving their parent's house and remove their scarves. Many visit their boyfirnds while their parents belive they are in the libararies studying. I find this dishonesty, forced by CULTURAL restrictions, fightening. I understand why they do this, but once again it seems sad that women are misled into believing and following a masculine deception. Who is 'she' hiding her modesty from? Men? Why? for fear of being attacked? Surely the onus is on the man to control HIMSELF and HIS debased urges? Perhaps this practice worked @ some time forsome purpose, but the contradiction that a woman who covers herself has more faith does not make sense when she has no respect for the other values that the faith tries to uphold. I could go on and on about this, a subject I do feel passionate about and have not yet been able to reconcile, which frustrates me, as many other elements of Islam make so much sense. Is there anyone out there who agrees with me...? |
| Re: Question about modesty and chastisity? |
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| Fozia |
| 09/29/03 at 15:25:28 |
| [quote author=Anonymous link=board=madrasa;num=1064425088;start=0#9 date=09/29/03 at 13:39:05]I too have a problem trying to understand the many contradictions that women are presented with and find themelves in...all too often willingly. Nowhere is it written in the Koran that women must cover their hair or beauty! And in all fairness...some have no aesthetic beauty to cover anyway!Many members of my family are Muslims (Middle East and Afrian origin) and many of my friends are of Asian-Mulim descent and culturally, there are some similarities but many diffs to varying degrees. My Muslim firends in London wear make-up, wear tight jeans, low tops and some even run around the corner after leaving their parent's house and remove their scarves. Many visit their boyfirnds while their parents belive they are in the libararies studying. I find this dishonesty, forced by CULTURAL restrictions, fightening. I understand why they do this, but once again it seems sad that women are misled into believing and following a masculine deception. Who is 'she' hiding her modesty from? Men? Why? for fear of being attacked? Surely the onus is on the man to control HIMSELF and HIS debased urges? Perhaps this practice worked @ some time forsome purpose, but the contradiction that a woman who covers herself has more faith does not make sense when she has no respect for the other values that the faith tries to uphold. I could go on and on about this, a subject I do feel passionate about and have not yet been able to reconcile, which frustrates me, as many other elements of Islam make so much sense. Is there anyone out there who agrees with me...?[/quote] [slm] I've quoted anon #2 so you know who I am replying to. 1) There is definitely a passage in the quran which tells the beloved prophet [saw] to ask the women of his household to cover. The extent is debateable, ie niqab, but not the hijaab issue. If someone on the board could quote the ayah I'm talking about I would be very grateful. 2) It is to safeguard her chastity, her intentions are not questioned, but the person looking at her may not be so well intentioned. 3) Hijaab is supposed to conceal her ornaments, her figure as well as her hair, we are not talking just head scarf here. 4) The girls you are speaking of, well they know what is right and what is wrong, the decision is theirs, but it does not necessarily reflect Islam. 5) So in how many rape cases has the question not been asked of the victim what she was wearing?? 6) You really don't have to be rude, everyones perception of aesthetically pleasing differs.... Wasalaam |
| Re: Question about modesty and chastisity? |
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| bhaloo |
| 09/30/03 at 01:27:34 |
| [quote author=Anonymous link=board=madrasa;num=1064425088;start=0#9 date=09/29/03 at 13:39:05] Nowhere is it written in the Koran that women must cover their hair or beauty! [/quote] This is a completely wrong statement, completely wrong. But first, know this, that Islam is based on the Quran and the authentic Sunnah. The Sunnah, according to the scholars , is everything that has been related from the Messenger (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) from his statements, actions, tacit approvals, personality, physical description, or biography. It does not matter whether the information being related refers to something before the beginning of his prophetic mission, or after it. The hijab of the Muslim woman has been set out in two verses of the Quran, Surah an-Nur ayah 31 (24:31) and Surah al-Ahzab ayah 59 (33:59). The list of commands contained in these verses is as follows: 1) Lower the gaze (24:31) 2) Guard the private parts (24:31) 3) Not display their beauty except their faces and hands (24:31) 4) Extend the khimar to cover the bosom (24:31) 5) Not display their beauty beyond the face and hands except to the people listed in 24:31 6) Not stamp their feet so as to reveal hidden beauty (24:31) 7) Draw the jilbab close around them when abroad (33:59) Now, it is very clear. If a woman must conceal all of her beauty except her face and hands, she must necessarily be concealing her hair. Even if "not to display their beauty except what is apparent" were the only text in the verse, yet as the Prophet (sAas) has explained the meaning of the Quran, a woman would still have to cover everything but her face and hands. We can also look at the meaning of the word "khimar". The word "khimar" comes from the root KHAMARA meaning "to cover". However, the particular form "khimar" may have a more specific meaning. Let's look at what it is: 1) In the Arabic of the Prophet (sAas), the word "khimar" referred to a HEADCOVERING. This can be seen in the hadiths in which the Prophet (sAas) wiped his wet hands over his khimar and his socks, from which the scholars have derived that it is halal to wipe wet hands over the HEADCOVERING and the socks. 2) The authorities on classical Arabic have defined the word "khimar" as a HEADCOVERING. For instance the dictionary Aqrab al-Mawarid defines the word "khimar" as, "All such pieces of cloth which are used to cover the head. It is a piece of cloth which is used by a woman to cover her head". The great scholar Imam Abu'l-Fida ibn Kathir defines the word "khimar" in the following words, "Khumur is the plural of khimar which means something that covers, and is what is used to cover the head. This is what is known among the people as a khimar". A modern scholar, Shaykh Muhammad al-Munajjid says, "Khimar comes from the word khamr, the root meaning of which is to cover. For example, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: 'Khammiru aaniyatakum (cover your vessels).' Everything that covers something else is called its khimar. But in common usage khimar has come to be used as a name for the garment with which a woman covers her head; in some cases this does not go against the linguistic meaning of khimar. Some of the fuqaha have defined it as that which covers the head, the temples and the neck. The difference between the hijab and the khimar is that the hijab is something which covers all of a woman’s body, whilst the khimar in general is something with which a woman covers her head". 3) Imam Abu Abdullah Qurtubi describes the historical circumstances relating to the wearing of the khimar in pre-Islamic Arabia as follows, "Women in those days used to cover their heads with the khimar, throwing its ends upon their backs. This left the neck and the upper part of the chest bare, along with the ears, in the manner of the Christians. Then Allah commanded them to cover those parts with the khimar". Similarly, Imam Abu'l-Fida ibn Kathir reports, "'Draw their khumur to cover their bosoms' means that they should wear the khimar in such a way that they cover their chests so that they will be different from the women of the jahiliyyah who did not do that but would pass in front of men with their chests uncovered and with their necks, forelocks, hair and earrings uncovered". Both of these descriptions provide clear, explicit, specific explanations of what "extend their khimars to cover their bosoms" means. 4) The scholars have agreed unanimously that the khimar is a HEADCOVERING. Please do not try to interpret the Quran by just looking up in some dictionary what the meaning of the root KHAMARA means. Each of the forms derived from this root may have a specific meaning. In order to interpret the Quran properly you need to know what the specific meaning of the particular form "khimar" was in the Arabic of the Prophet (sAas). According to the common usage recorded from that time (in the hadiths), to dictionaries that have preserved the classical Arabic, and to the reports of the actual practice of the women of that time, the khimar is a HEADCOVERING. As for the rest of your post, someone else that has some time will address it. But in short, yes, men and women are required to lower their gaze and we're required to dress modestly. We are commanded to do these things by Allah. |
| 09/30/03 at 01:30:11 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: Question about modesty and chastisity? |
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| sofia |
| 09/30/03 at 11:08:31 |
| Anonymous - First, let me start off by saying that the word "chastity" is a Christian concept, not Islaamic. Never has been. "Chastity" is almost exclusively a term meant for females. Modesty, on the other hand (hayaa in Arabic), is meant to be the foremost characteristic of Muslims, male or female, and not just something that has to do with our outer clothing. The hijaab is only one aspect of modesty (which need only be worn when we're around men who aren't closely related to us). Not long ago, women used to cover themselves much more than they do now (even their hair) in the west! Have you ever seen Muslim men in some countries? They're sometimes more covered than females, believe it or not, if we're going by outer modesty, alone. And some orthodox Jews and Christians (amongst others) still cover their hair. Secondly, Islaam, in theory, is often quite separate from cultural practices, particularly those that go against Islaamic teachings. Unfortunately, commentators like to jumble the 2 together, thus misrepresenting true Islaam (ex/trying to equate "honor killings" to Islaam. The two don't mix). Thirdly, Islaam does not equal Muslim. Islaam is a religion, which has commandments and prohibitions, like any other religion, that should be studied and analyzed from authentic sources. Its followers are called Muslims. Just like you'll rarely see a perfect Christian or Jew, you'll rarely see a perfect Muslim, although it's our responsibility to strive for perfection. This fact has to be understood. As an aside, have you ever seen a Vogue or Cosmo poll on the top 3 things that men notice about women? Hair is always in the top 3. Women aren't always attracted to the same things men are, who are much more visual. This is a general statement, and one that you'll often see in even western studies, so don't take it as an authoritative statement, nor something you didn't hear before. But the very fact that something is "attractive," is not the only reason for modest clothing, either. In Islaam, there is always a balance. Whether its in worshipping God and serving humanity (and not one or the other), or having true faith in our hearts and in our outer actions. Actually, faith is necessary for our actions to be meaningful and/or accepted by God. So if I were at the masjid/mosque every day volunteering my time, giving charity in public (which is not recommended in Islaam) so I could seem "religious" or "generous" in the eyes of others, my "good deeds" would be in vain. There is something in Islaam that is paramount over all else, and that is sincerity in pleasing God. We may be able to pull the wool over each other's eyes, but we can't pull one over on God. If we try to understand who God is and our duty towards Him, we'd see that the wisdom in His commandments and His prohibitions is VAST, and it's most difficult to understand when we know little about it. So please learn about Islaam through its authentic sources. Islaam is a Divinely perfected religion. In it, even the ants and vegetation have rights. So how could a woman not? See this thread for info on women's rights in Islaam. http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=madrasa;action=display;num=1063688487 and [url=http://www.jannah.org/genderequity/]Gender Equity in Islaam by J. Badawi[/url]. [quote]but the contradiction that a woman who covers herself has more faith does not make sense when she has no respect for the other values that the faith tries to uphold.[/quote] Excellent point and it holds true for anyone. God has the ability to look in the heart of every person to reveal the true intentions of our every deed. As humans, we don't have this ability, and can only really "judge" on face value/a superficial level. We're actually discouraged from judging others, and encouraged to judge ourselves. One of the first hadiths (sayings of the Prophet) a lot of Muslims learn is, "Every action is judged by its intention." [quote]Surely the onus is on the man to control HIMSELF and HIS debased urges?[/quote] Yes, it is. Every individual is responsible for their own actions. So for example, if a rapist rapes a woman, he is responsible for his own actions. That does not detract from the fact that there's such a thing as locks on our doors. It may be moral to not break in to someone's house and the criminal may even do some hard time because he is at fault (not the owner of the house), but the intelligent one would lock his door. And when I say this, don't simply equate the "lock" with the "hijaab." Modesty is a much broader issue than a piece of cloth. It's a characteristic for *all* human beings. As an aside: I and many others cover voluntarily, and do not feel like it's something that is unfair. In fact, it is more common to see Muslimahs who are urged by their family *not* to wear hijaab (unfortunately), than those who are forced to wear it in the west. I personally know a *lot* of the former and only 1-2 of the latter. I wish more people understood that the basic concepts of covering would put a western feminist to shame. There are many women out there who would probably keep the hijaab on if it were to all of the sudden not be an obligatory act (which wouldn't happen, I mean hypothetically). The reasons are hard to explain, but there's more to it than just "protection" and "hiding one's beauty." If a woman covers for the right reasons, you're literally forced to judge her by her ability and not by her sex appeal, all the while respecting her as a woman and not a man. I would never uncover, although I work in "corporate America." So often, women in the west are either forced to be "like men" or to use their appeal to get ahead. Islaam lets a woman be a woman. Again, the wisdom behind God's laws is vast and comprehensive, much moreso than our limited understanding may comprehend at first. The foremost reason hijaab should be worn is fulfillment of a commandment from God (not a commandment from people). If we do it for any other reason, it's pretty much in vain (remember the concept of sincerity to God). And there is not a commandment from God that is unjust, nor is God limited in any way in His wisdom. None of His laws are meant to harm His creation; in fact, quite the opposite. While there are people (mostly women and children) who may do things out of coercion, the fact remains that Islaam is not spread by compulsion, nor do its principles condone compulsion. I know of Muslim girls who sneak a hijaab *out* of the house to wear it because their parents won't "allow" it. Think about this: why is Islaam (the largest, purely monotheistic religion that's followed in the world) the fastest growing religion, and some analysts say, there are more women converts than male? Anyhow, historically, it wasn't until almost a decade after the first revelations of the Qur'aan that things like obligatory prayer and other commandments (like hijaab) were revealed. By that time, it was easy for the Muslims to fulfill their obligations in Islaam, because they already had the basic foundation of belief in the One, True, Perfect God. My point is, Islaam encourages education and belief, before moving onto actions that require belief (like prayer and hijaab, etc). Prophet Muhammad (S) once told his followers: [color=blue]"The one who looks after a widow or a poor person is like the one who fights for Allah's Cause, or like him who prays all the night and fasts all the day."[/color] (Bukhaari, Muslim). And, [color=blue]"I and the one who guards the orphan, whether for himself or for someone else, will be like these two in Paradise...,"[/color] indicating with his middle and index fingers. (from Malik's Muwatta) While coersion and use of force is unfortunately used on the weak in any society, it is not Islaam that encourages it. In fact, Islaam prohibits taking advantage of the weak or marginalized in society, and radically protects their rights. Study true Islaam, and you'll see (how far Muslims lag in implementing the true teachings of Islaam). [quote]Nowhere is it written in the Koran that women must cover their hair or beauty[/quote] This is, unfortunately, a weak argument used by those who have not yet understood some basic Qur'aanic teachings. It's not just non-Muslims who fall into this, unfortunately. Here's some more information on the Qur'aan and ahaadith that are quite clear on the matter of hijaab/jilbaab. http://www.angelfire.com/me4/islaam/Hijab1.html http://www.quraan.com/Sisters/RequirementsOfWomensHijab.asp Insha'Allah, God willing, others can help you out on this, as well. I apologize for the disjointed msg, had to be written in a rush. Peace, Sofia |
| NS |
| 10/01/03 at 12:08:09 |
| sofia |
| Re: Question about modesty and chastisity? |
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| amatullah |
| 10/02/03 at 14:24:07 |
| Jannah said: "i've heard other views.. besides kajal too...a minority for sure but from their own mouths" There are many views and opinions, but to have them valid from a religious point of view I think that they must have the support of a few scholars. I don't use the term here loosely as has been the trend as in anyone who graduates from a sharee3a college and is pursuing futher knowledge. I have searched it alot since this post and have come up with nothing. B ut i am not the best net searcher. So if you or se7en can pm me with this view from the word of any of the major scholars of the century or even past it that would be interesting to read it. Sophia: EXcellent post masha'Allah. I just wanted to point to something maybe not even on topic directly. But you said: "One of the first hadiths (sayings of the Prophet) a lot of Muslims learn is, "Every action is judged by its intention." This hadeeth is the first in saheeh bukhary yet it is almost always misunderstood by Muslims. Many use it to justify the wrong they do. The fiqh of this hadeeth is that it applies to "6a3at" the things that are done under the lawful and the obedience. Not for the things that are unlawful. Like one cannot say I will go to a bar and my intention is to do da'wah to a friend who is there. BUt on the other hand...what is Lawful can become unlawful if the intention is bad. Like you can't say...i'm allowed to match my scarf to my skirt so i will do it so that i can seduce this guy i am interested in. |
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