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Pakistan + Women + Career !
Nomi
09/26/03 at 05:30:20
[slm] =========== PAKISTAN: Career orientation in women is on the rise and many are opting not to get married just for their career. There are two obvious problems that this attitude is posing. 1] Women... not choosing to get married 'just' for career... need i say more ? 2] Most of the women who are into professional studies like MBA, BS/MS in IT/CS are from well off families (as these studies are really expensive) and them being working ladies, regardless they are for marriage or not, is obviously making it difficult for men to find jobs. Hence these men can't support their families. Some men even blame the employers for having a 'soft corner' for ladies and hiring them even if the male applicant for the same job is more dynamic and deserving!

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
ltcorpest2
09/26/03 at 09:59:14
Nomi,  just because a woman gets a job, that doesn't mean a man does not get a job.  He just may not get that particular job.  The economy is not a  zero sum game.  Each person whether male orfemale working contributes to the overall economy and in turn will create more need for jobs.  Companies that do not hire the best applicant for the job eventually lose out because sooner or later the company that hires the best will prevail and expand.

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
BroHanif
09/26/03 at 12:02:07
Salaams, Nomi aren't we a bit sexist??? Has the green eyes monster at work turned up or what, or has a certain lady become your mgr and you know work under her? C'mon man its not fair to simply label women as just working for careers, theres more to their life than just work. Nomi, Nomi, desert prince, desert prince, tsk tsk.... Salaams Hanif
NS

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
SisterHania
09/26/03 at 12:46:40
[slm] Is it an ego thing? Before this thread turn into another battle of gender supremeority seeking knowledge from the cradle to the grave is an important duty of Muslims and Muslimahs. On a side note: Regarding careers and education: from observation, I was under the impression that nowadays the higher your level of education and or position in the work place the more marketable you are as a potential bride. How many would choose educated verses uneducated for a potential spouse? [wlm]

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
ltcorpest2
09/26/03 at 18:54:32
hania wrote:     How many would choose educated verses uneducated for a potential spouse? my wife chose the uneducated route , and see where it got her. jk i am fairly well educated in some things. and nomi,  my post wasn't meant to beat up on you, so hopefully it didn't sound offensive.

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
Nomi
09/27/03 at 02:48:30
[i]This is not gonna be easy[/i] Gracias for replying ppl :) Mike wrote [quote] and nomi,  my post wasn't meant to beat up on you, so hopefully it didn't sound offensive. [/quote] aww Mike u r such a nice guy. Dont worry i dont get hurt that easily :) BroHanif wrote [quote] Nomi, Nomi, desert prince, desert prince, tsk tsk.... [/quote] Desert Prince, i know u r out there and laughing at me, but i'm gonna get you someday, someway! BroHanif wrote [quote] Has the green eyes monster at work turned up or what, or has a certain lady become your mgr and you know work under her? [/quote] Actually this is my third and 1st job where i do not have a lady manager :) (if i were the desert prince i would have been like :( ...) BroHanif wrote [quote] C'mon man its not fair to simply label women as just working for careers, theres more to their life than just work. [/quote] sis Hania wrote [quote] Is it an ego thing? [/quote] I wasn't labeling n e one. Actually i was there at my cousin's and there was a show on TV where students were arguing on this issue and a guy said that many ladies get jobs due to that 'soft corner' thing and the talented/deserving guys dont. sis Hania wrote [quote] How many would choose educated verses uneducated for a potential spouse? [/quote] sis Hania wrote [quote] Before this thread turn into another battle of gender supremeority seeking knowledge from the cradle to the grave is an important duty of Muslims and Muslimahs. [/quote] You got me wrong there sis, this thread is *not* about education but about career oriented women. All of us should seek knowledge from cradle to grave. sis Hania wrote [quote] On a side note: Regarding careers and education: from observation, I was under the impression that nowadays the higher your level of education and or position in the work place the more marketable you are as a potential bride. [/quote] With all due respect sis, i think this comment is sending out a wrong impression! What if majority of men start rejecting Hijabi sisters? My Allah forgive me for saying this but sisters wont take off their hijabs for getting married right? BroHanif wrote [quote] Nomi aren't we a bit sexist??? [/quote] Now let me try and bring some sense to this post (my post... although it might still not make sense to some :P ). Gender biasness? Thats what you were referring to bro Hanif and my answer to that is, 'most' of men are biased when it comes to gender depending upon what our understanding of biasness is! Why are most low paying jobs of sales persons, waitresses etc are assigned to ladies mostly? Sheer gender biasness by the standards of feminist groups. There are people on this plannet who'll call US full of biased men as it has never seen a female president, or has it? Take a look at 500 top notch companies of the world, how many of these have female presidents? 5? 10? I say less than that even, isn't that biasness? It seems that men in those companies and many others are pulling their legs so that they can't get to a top most rank! But we are missing the islamic perspective in this discussion. Why does a lady need a job? Obviously When she has no one to provide for her or hubby isn't making enough money for living. Note that i mentioned *living*, meaning, the basic needs of life and education of children *not* the *standard of living* which no one will ever be satisfied with. Remember the hadith that says "If someone gets a valley full of gold s/he'll long for another one !". I'm all for education, everyone should get it for good but education of a lady should be considered a backup for tough times! (May Allah protect us) Apart from the two cases mentioned above, according to my understanding  a lady should work as a doctor or a teacher (for ladies and kids) and intention should be for dawah purposes. Here is what i've come across from experience, My second workplace, the grouplead said that she is working just for 'time pass' (killing time?) and that she is not in need of money (a single lady btw). Does she need a job? why this undue mixing with opposite gender when there is no legitimate need for that? And i can quote many such examples from my personal experience. We missed another point in our discussion i.e. ladies are actually opting *not to get married* just for a career. How am i so sure? ... can't quote the whole story, to cut it short, apart from my personal experience, a friend discussed this with me and he *isn't* that strict when it comes to gender mixing!!! and has talked to ladies from such category but thats not something which is hidden from many of us right? Dont get me wrong here as these are not the ladies who dont find someone to get married to. Now dont ask me that how do i know ::) More later.... [i]<i see Lucid winding up to bash me and this is what i like about this place. All of us with our minute differences and still united :) :) >[/i] Lets see how hard you ppl can hit me :P
09/27/03 at 03:00:04
Nomi

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
SisterHania
09/27/03 at 05:10:04
[quote author=Nomi link=board=ummah;num=1064565021;start=0#5 date=09/27/03 at 02:48:30][i]This is not gonna be easy[/i] With all due respect sis, i think this comment is sending out a wrong impression! What if majority of men start rejecting Hijabi sisters? My Allah forgive me for saying this but sisters wont take off their hijabs for getting married right?[/quote] BUT this IS my point. I have met many brothers who have rejected a sister because she wears a hijab. Likewise I have met many brothers who have opted for the sister who is the Medical graduate over the sociology one. Marriage is important to many sisters but nowadays to find a husband you have to fufil so much criteria it becomes frustrating!  >:( Perhaps your community is different to mine and if so Allahmdulliah you are very lucky. Anyway my point is maybe there are more reasons for women choosing careers then meets the eye. If a marriage were to ever breakdown then a woman's independance would be vital in that situation. [quote] 2] Most of the women who are into professional studies like MBA, BS/MS in IT/CS are from well off families [/quote] MBA,BS etc that involves learning and education right? That was why I made the point about learning!
09/27/03 at 05:15:53
SisterHania

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
jannah
09/27/03 at 05:58:31
[wlm] man i think abu hamza and i got into this fight err discussion a few months ago. first of all there seems to be a real presumption here: Career orientation in women is on the rise and many are opting not to get married just for their career. the first part is true no doubt.. career orientation is on the rise... but the second??? very doubtful.. u kinda sound like lucid's old "why do women over 30 choose their career over marriage" ugh like duh... go back to your statistics... there are a host of complex reasons why people are getting married later and later in recent years, but it's making an obvious mistake of any objective assessment to say correlations are equal to causality. i'd like you to find me one single real life muslim woman who has decided not to get married for her career. secondly and more importantly why shouldn't any woman have a "career"? and why shouldn't any girl have the opportunity to study and contribute to society like anyone else (ie same as any male)?  wow sometimes i really think we've stepped back into even pre-jahaliyya times or something "Why does a lady need a job?" maybe she needs to support her family, maybe she wants to be independent instead of making her father work himself into an early grave, maybe because she doesn't want the same for her husband, maybe she wants to contribute to society education, medicine, technology... maybe because she just wants to sounds good enough to me... there's obviously no islamic argument in this because the whole islamic argument is FOR women contributing to society in innumerable ways including a 'career'... did you forget that khadija was a busineswoman or that aisha was a lifelong scholar and faqih...or that innumerable sahabiyat worked in various capacities AND received money for it and employed others. they were not just baby making machines that some men seem to think is the legacy of muslim women AND we can see how amazing that generation was AND their children -- the tabieen. not to mention all the women in history who taught others and made money and built great things like the aqueducts of makkah or the qariwayn... if women should step back and let men take jobs they are qualified and deserving for, gee she shouldn't be allowed any money at all.. it should be just inherited by the male.. which is kind of incongruous with islamic law.. maybe we should ponder over why Allah still gave an inheritance share to women even though they are not obliged to provide for a family. even the fiqh says that a woman may work. if not working for women was such an economically viable discovery i think our Creator would be the first one to legislate it.   as for being more marketable if you have more of an education or are a doctor or lawyer. it engenders the same feelings in me as it probably does to guys who are put up to the muslim parent lithmus test (ie are u a doctor or an engineer, if not get lost). it's degrading and not an argument we should use to defend our right to get an education and contribute to the world or earn an income. ps this post is not pointed at a single person... just the ideas expressed in the thread.

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
SisterHania
09/27/03 at 07:02:54
[quote author=jannah link=board=ummah;num=1064565021;start=0#7 date=09/27/03 at 05:58:31] as for being more marketable if you have more of an education or are a doctor or lawyer. it engenders the same feelings in me as it probably does to guys who are put up to the muslim parent lithmus test (ie are u a doctor or an engineer, if not get lost). it's degrading and not an argument we should use to defend our right to get an education and contribute to the world or earn an income. [/quote] Of course it is degrading but unfortunately it has become a criteria for parents/children in choosing a spouse in cetain communities. In my parents generation grooms with education and a good income were the most sought after, now in my generation the girl also should be educated. Why did this sudden change come about? I'm all for girls wanting to make a difference in society through education/career but I am equally for a girl who wants to stay home, look after her family and raise her kids. In the West I find that people's reactions to wanting to stay home and be a mum is negative. Why so? Is it really possible to EFFICENTLY balance a career and a house of 3 under 5 year olds (excluding your husband :))
09/27/03 at 07:05:48
SisterHania

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
bhaloo
09/27/03 at 08:24:36
[slm] [quote author=Hania link=board=ummah;num=1064565021;start=0#8 date=09/27/03 at 07:02:54] In my parents generation grooms with education and a good income were the most sought after, now in my generation the girl also should be educated. Why did this sudden change come about? [/quote] Back in our parents' generation, the man worked and was able to provide a house for his family and take care of them.  Housing was priced at what people could afford.  Its all about supply and demand.   And when banks leant money to people they were fairly strict on the amounts that would be leant.  The feminist movement started to roll in  and women started to pursue careers.   So now instead of 1 income, there are 2 incomes coming in (granted, the woman is probably making 70 cents on every dollar the man makes, but still).  Guess what?  Housing prices go up because of the demand.  And banks become a bit looser in lending out money.  So now we live in a society where both spouses have to work just to afford a house.  The county I live in (it has a population of 2.2 million), the average price of a house here, the average price is $480,000.  This is the price for some small rinky dink place.  *BLING* *BLING*.   What kind of man could afford that?

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
SisterHania
09/27/03 at 10:01:45
[quote author=bhaloo link=board=ummah;num=1064565021;start=0#9 date=09/27/03 at 08:24:36][slm] So now instead of 1 income, there are 2 incomes coming in (granted, the woman is probably making 70 cents on every dollar the man makes, but still).   [/quote] For the same job? [quote] $480,000.  This is the price for some small rinky dink place.  *BLING* *BLING*.   What kind of man could afford that?   [/quote] Does this figure represent the property market in the whole of the states or one particular area? I think the average house price in London is now £233,683 and that is AFTER a fall in prices. A house at this price will also be a dinky bird cage size. London is such an expensive city  :( Back in Egypt we could live in a palace by the nile for £233,683 ahhhhhh if only......

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
readagain
09/27/03 at 13:31:46
[slm] my first workplace... Husband of my manager was himself a manager in a reputed company of Pakistan and was making a lavish income mashaAllah, does this lady need a job? i say no she doesn't.. [/mem] My second workplace, the grouplead said that she is working just for 'time pass' (killing time?) and that she is not in need of money (a single lady btw). Does she need a job? why this undue mixing with opposite gender when there is no legitimate need for that? And i can quote many such examples from my personal experience. I think you are getting at 2 things here 1) women are taking away jobs that men cld have gotten and 2) women are mixing with the other gender when there is no need. (correct me if im wrong here) i kinda dont know how to start, my thoughts are not exactly organized at this point but i wanna say a bunch of things. first off, when ppl, anyone men or women put their time and effort into getting a professional degree..what do u think they shld do after that? even if that girl is working to "kill time" i dont see that there is anything wrong with that..she is putting her education into use. she is not sitting home watchign soap operas or indulging in unnecessary gossipping all the time (she might do that after work hours , but atleast for those 9 or so hours she is NOT doing that). When u talk abt women taking away men's jobs..is it really women's fault? take a good look at the society and think why we have such a high rate of unemployment?? I agree that if those girls dont go for those jobs, some guys who wd have to support their families could have gotten it..but how do u know that only deserving guys wd get that job? and not sons and cousins of beaurocrats (sp) and industrialists?last time i checked ratio of women to men population was like 53:47 (correct me if im wrong, i actually think it prb increased) I personally know many , many girls who are working to support their families..and i know thats not ur point here but when an employer is hiring..does he do the background check of who needs the job and who doesnt? so you are saying that girls from well off families or even who dont really need a job should opt not to do that out of the goodness of their heart cos our country is almost always in recession ?(im talking abt Pakistan here)..I know why you are saying what u are saying..but dear brother this is not the solution.. at all...about your point of women intermingliing with the opposite gender; dude i dont realy understand what ppl think of the role of women.. seriously...I mean WHY do we wear hijab? plzzzzzzz tell me WHY..? and dont tell me its only when u go out for shopping..or goto school...??? Why would hijab be fard on us if all we had to do was sit home and go out when its ONLY NECESSARY..i really dont understand this..im sorry..its prb me..i dont get it. here is a good read, which i know is not totally what u are saying..but I think it wd be of benefit for ppl to read..feel free to comment and i apologize if someone had already posted this here, I also apologize if anything i said sounded harsh, i didnt intend that at all. anyways here u go: Where are the women?~ Jeewan Chanicka From the pulpit to the preachers, many often proclaim Islam's liberation of women 1400 years ago. After all Islam did recognize that women possessed souls - this acknowledged only over the past 100 years in Christianity and Islam did give women the right to vote - yet another relatively recent phenomena in Western society. We are quick to convince skeptics of   Islam's superiority in that the first martyr in Islam was a woman, the first to accept Islam was Khadijah, the first nurse was Rufaida, that the one from whom we have learned one third of our deen was Aisha. (May Allah be pleased with them all.) And why should we not feel proud of such a legacy when this legacy has produced scholarship and numerous examples of leadership, virtue and excellence. Women who, for all intents and purposes, outshone many of their male counterparts despite their "gender." However if we were to take a critical look at our community today we would be hard-pressed to find the likes of Aisha, Fatima, Nusaybah and many others. We would first have to look behind the barriers erected in the masajid, or call on them at their homes where they have been relegated to housework by the male-dominated and chauvinistic practices that havepermeated the Muslim community. Virtue today as imposed (or should I say "encouraged") upon Muslim women dictates that a woman should be fully covered (the more the better), that she stays at home and raises the children and fulfill her husband's every wish and desire. It is better that she stays inside than walk outside lest she be a temptress and cause someone to commit sin by looking at her,  that she should be silent because her voice is her awrah. Should she have questions, it is best that she write them and "fly them" over the barriers so that someone would by chance pick it up and read it and perhaps give her an answer. We the men, the "proper leaders" know that women come from the rib of man and that it is bent and cannot be made straight, that women are highly emotional and of course have that "menstrual thing", which incapacitates their ability to make proper decisions and to function in a "normal way". There is no way that they can contribute to Islamic work because their voices and "grace" make them weaknesses for men and so it is in keeping   with piety that we shut them out and lock them away. After all, men being the rational thinkers are capable of making decisions for women who are in constant need of our superior knowledge. Hence we do not need them on the boards of our institutions, we fail to put them in leadership positions because it is not compatible with their "feminine nature". As one imam once said, they may start to "fraternize with the men". In keeping with this, we do not really need to give them a big space at the mosque because they should pray at home. Should we be so generous as to offer them some space, we must ensure that it is fully sealed so that there is not enough ventilation and that they are trapped within the confines of limited space with 20 crying babies. It is ok if they don't hear anything because they don't really need that much knowledge, even though   the lap of the mother is the first school of the ummah. As long as we don't hear or see them, then all is well. We should not shame them by giving them the ability to communicate their ideas, thoughts or wishes because we already know them. So we are locking them up for their own good. Anyone who dares to question this must be outside of the proper understanding of Islam. There seems to be some discrepancy between what is said on the pulpit about the excellence of the earlier women and how it translates to reality for our sisters. It has further allowed the perpetuation of blatant double standards in terms of what women and men can and cannot do. Usually men can engage in numerous activities, which if done by women, would cause their commitment to Islam to be questioned.   Women comprise about half of our community, yet they must still  compete to have their voices heard, to have space, to be able to go to functions  that take into consideration that they need to bring their children. More often than not, when there are issues involving our sisters, they are "dealt with" by the men. When any sisters dare to challenge this, they automatically are branded as western-styled feminists who are trying to sully the sanctity of Islamic values and ideals. Yet if one were to look on campuses and in general community work the dawah of this community is being carried on the shoulders of Muslim   women. Many whom would ordinarily be silenced are finding their niches and are doing their bit to fulfill their covenant in enjoining right and   forbidding evil and in spreading this deen. In fact, women in our community are the flag-bearers of Islam, particularly those who wear hijab because they are easily identifiable. When walking down the street, it is those whom we notice as being Muslim and those who are approached and asked about   Islam. We tend to answer in utopian terms, when asked about our glorious past   and ignore the wrongdoing that has been taking place today. It behooves us   (men) to believe that we can be wrong or may have WRONG understandings of the seerah and the place of women in society. It would appear though that having shut women out of the community has allowed them now to approach Islam and Islamic work with less baggage   than men. Men have inherited much cultural baggage that they still keep with   them today, cultural practices that have become engrained in our daily   practices as being Islamic. As Muslim women return to the authentic understanding   of the Qur'an and Seerah, they are in a better position to take on this work and fulfill its requirements. Islamic work in North America and the world will never be successful   until women are completely integrated within the framework of leadership, decision-making and shura. While no one is arguing for "free   intermingling" or a neglect of duties of motherhood or the negation of fiqh (and its   proper application) there is a need for discussion and critical deconstruction   of some of the cultural practices that have become mainstays in our   community. The argument that the time of the prophet was different and now is a   time of fitna holds no weight, especially when one considers that the earliest generation of Muslims was in one of the most corrupt societies that   existed. Yet women played a vibrant part of its growth and development. They were > >consulted when decisions were to be made, they were included in matters > >affecting society's growth and development, some were teachers and others were poets, others fought in war, all this, while still following Allah's commands and the examples of his prophet. There are no shortages of   examples of this in the seerah, though they tend to be ignored. We are quick to point to the fact that we are leaders and have the   "last say". Perhaps there is a need to analyze our understanding of leadership.   Is a leader one who ignores the needs of others, makes all the decisions and   is scared of debate and consultation? The prophet peace be upon him was the opposite of this. He was the best of leaders as he consulted with others   and led by example. He was most kind and in fact said that "the one who is   best, is the one who is best to his family and I am the best to my family". It   may be that we are afraid that women will perform some of the duties we have been doing better than we have, that their knowledge may be more sound   and that they may be more fit for leadership positions than those who have traditionally held the reigns. Even in this regard, we seem to forget the just leadership of the Queen of Sheba or a tradition that is rich with female scholarship. If we are sincere in wanting to do what Allah   requires of us, we need to be open to this dialogue, admit our injustices to our sisters, ask for forgiveness and try to move forward. A bird can only fly if it flaps both wings. Allah has made women our equal counterparts and they bring value and insight inherent with their nature that we may not think about or know   of. Some scholars explain that women are the spiritual anchors of society. If   we are sincere, we need to realise that in many ways we are oppressing our sisters and when we shut women out of leadership roles, banish them to domestic spaces, pretend that we can speak on their behalf, we are oppressing the very ones under whose feet lies paradise. The issues of leadership and involvement are not black and white and those sisters and brothers advocating for change are not asking for all values and   standards to be dropped or changed. Instead we are asking for justice and fairness. Sisters should be a part of the majlis-shura in the masajid and   various institutions because leadership (and I am not speaking about being imam here) should be defined based on qualification and not gender. Shura   entails that we take the voices of the varying members of our community into consideration. We need to ensure that sisters are able to have equal   access to speakers and knowledge so that they are able to grow and learn themselves. Our primary consideration should not be how big a barrier is   and whether or not it touches the ceiling. Most importantly we have to let sisters represent themselves, we should not speak for them but with them. The realisation should be based upon the trust that women are our   partners in establishing Islam in the world and do not have ulterior motives of "fraternizing with the opposite sex." They too want to work with us to benefit Islam, Muslims and society in general. Muslims have a standard that has to be adhered to as defined by the   Qur'an and the practice of the prophet pbuh. We need to rise to the challenge of implementing this within our daily lives, to adhere to its boundaries and   to challenge our own bias and (mis)-interpretations of it's application. As men, it is time that we acknowledge the struggles of our sisters (both within and without our community) and it is even more important to   recognise the privilege that we have enjoyed due to no real merit but simply   because of our gender. If we want to please Allah and to be true to our covenant   of bringing this deen to the people around us, it is necessary for us to address these issues. Until such time we will be held accountable before Allah when people reject our self-styled versions of Islam.

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
ltcorpest2
09/27/03 at 14:53:40
hania,  bhaloo lives in the high rent district of orange county.  You could by the same house in Hemet or Palmdale, Weedpatch (I love weedpatch, what a great name for a city)  for $150,000.00.

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
Nomi
09/27/03 at 16:41:04
[slm] :) [i]seems like i pressed the wrong button, well it was supposed to switch on the 'light', i dint know that its a dual purpose switch !![/i] --jannah [quote] gee she shouldn't be allowed any money at all.. it should be just inherited by the male.. [/quote] Why say this when you *know* that i dint mean it ??? --jannah [quote] ps this post is not pointed at a single person... just the idaas expressed in the thread. [/quote] I really needed that, thanks ! --jannah [quote] u kinda sound like lucid's old "why do women over 30 choose their career over marriage" ugh like duh...   [/quote] Hey!! I think u r talking to me there :) .... ppl i got her dint i? :P :P --jannah [quote] i'd like you to find me one single real life muslim woman who has decided not to get married for her career. [/quote] How would you prefer to talk to her, in fact i personally know two and a friend at least knows one. That makes three of them. Do let me know in your next post inshaAllah! --jannah [quote] did you forget that khadija was a busineswoman or that aisha was a lifelong scholar and faqih...or that innumerable sahabiyat worked in various capacities AND received money for it and employed others [/quote] Did you forget that sahabah [ra] once used to drink alcohol ??? Things should be taken in proper context, islamic teachings were sent gradually to the Prophet [saw] you can't simply take the example of Khadijah [ra] and apply it coz at that time all ayahs of The Noble Qur'an +  Hadiths were not revealed! And those innumerable sahabiyaat that you talked about worked during battles with men or with their mehrams to support their businesses OTHERS who worked, worked because there was NO ONE to provide for them. --jannah [quote] and made money and built great things like the aqueducts of makkah or the qariwayn...   [/quote] I dont think that lady worked as a mason (Allah forbid) i think she was 'intelligent enough' just to hand over the money to some men and ask some 'wazir' to do the supervision. --readagain [quote] she is putting her education into use. she is not sitting home watchign soap operas or indulging in unnecessary gossipping all the time (she might do that after work hours , but atleast for those 9 or so hours she is NOT doing that). [/quote] --jannah [quote] and why shouldn't any girl have the opportunity to study and contribute to society like anyone else (ie same as any male)?  wow sometimes i really think we've stepped back into even pre-jahaliyya times or something [/quote] Pre-jahaleyah time was in fact time of ilm depemding upon the era as there were nations who were very very intelligent. I'll checkout few history books for refreshing my memory! Either you dint mean it or are playing with words a litle, i said that i'm all for education for women, please do not twist other's words. [i](hey did anyone of you watched 'twister' the movie.. man! there were cows and 8 wheelers flying all around :P :P )[/i] okay back to the point... Ladies can always contribute to society through proper islamic ways, no need to stretch the limits. Why do ladies want to work in an environment (when they are not in need as they are being provided) where there are 10 men around them and hence there is undue mixing. Now dont tell me that a lady just works there with no giggling and mixing as ppl will *always* probe them, their boss will probe them, they'll be asked to open up and be bold......... been there done that.......... And ladies are ready for all this for what ??? Just to ward off the pressure from society, just to get marketted for a proposal (now sisters said it i dint). There are many other ways to support society only if we think about them and even create them. I once used to think like 'why grow your beard why do this why do that, show people a err modern face of islam' how wrong was i, same seems to be the case with ladies who are being provided for and its all good but they still want to go for a job! And there is always this illuding factor of income! Many ladies are educated with no jobs right? Well its obviously in the qadr and as a result the money that they are not earning is simply *not* their rizq AND what they are getting from their parents or husbands is actually THEIR rizq. I hope we dont need to be reminded every now and then that how the whole system of rizq is being operated by Allah [swt] --readagain [quote] seriously...I mean WHY do we wear hijab? plzzzzzzz tell me WHY..? and dont tell me its only when u go out for shopping..or goto school... Why would hijab be fard on us if all we had to do was sit home and go out when its ONLY NECESSARY.. [/quote] "And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance, and perform As-Salaah (Iqamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah and obey Allaah and His Messenger. Allaah wishes only to remove Ar-Rijs (evil deeds and sins) from you, O members of the family (of the Prophet), and to purify you with a thorough purification. And remember (O you the members of the Prophet’s family, the Graces of your Lord), that which is recited in your houses of the Verses of Allaah and Al-Hikmah (i.e. Prophet’s Sunnah legal ways, so give your thanks to Allaah and glorify His Praises for this Qur’aan and the Sunnah). Verily, Allaah is Ever Most Courteous, Well-Acquainted with all things" [al-Ahzaab 33:33-34] Stay inshaAllah! (and I pray in Allah that you guys wont forget my previous post where i mentioned three conditions where ladies can work, check them again plz) wassalam PS: In this post i specifically answered the concerns of sis jannah and sis readagain, rest of you are welcome to put up your concerns............. [s]ok BroHanif spank me !![/s] PS2: [i]just one blue eye rest of me is still intact[/i] :P PS3:[i] Abu_Hamza, report to me ASAP and dont forget to bring along your 'guitar box' ;) [/i] ... time to hit bed :)
09/27/03 at 16:52:10
Nomi

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
momineqbal
09/27/03 at 17:32:15
[slm], On the point of women taking away jobs that could have gone to men, is there any specific scientifically done study for it? Now how does it makes sense that the fact that rizq is in Allah's hand is ignored here while being applied to a situation where people wilfully leave their jobs and think somehow Allah will provide their rizq? And yes there are muslim women I know also who have preferred not to get married for want of having a high flying career. But in most cases such women's deen is really mixed up, in which case the approach should be to do 'Islah' of their deen and not attacking them on why are they taking away men's jobs. Allah knows better.

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
BroHanif
09/27/03 at 19:32:10
Salaams, [quote]Why do ladies want to work in an environment (when they are not in need as they are being provided) where there are 10 men around them and hence there is undue mixing. Now dont tell me that a lady just works there with no giggling and mixing as ppl will *always* probe them, their boss will probe them, they'll be asked to open up and be bold......... been there done that.......... And ladies are ready for all this for what  Just to ward off the pressure from society, just to get marketted for a proposal (now sisters said it i dint[/quote] Bro this is disgraceful how can you say this?. A very naive view of women and one where if we operate ourselves in such an environment then we are our selves to blame. In fact bro why let women go out and work?, Islam was never complex at the time of the prophet  [saw] and you know whos made it complex we have by our weird laws, customs and thinking. If a woman is not in a health field i.e. docotr/nurse or a teacher then where she works  they are supposed to be in a booth, wear a veil, heck make it those thick gloves as well, and can only communicate via grunts?. Other work sectors are not practical and it would get your heart and the other men of Pakstan thumping loudly? Its ridiculous seriously, such a low view of women, that if one talks to them the nx minute your going to end up in bed with em? Jeez man, c'mon. Where I work I have three women and the rest are 12 men, no we are not hot blooded and froth at the mouth when we see these women, in fact I treat them as my mom as they are nearing the age of 50. Yes I may act like a professional heck even like a gentelman and be polite and ask them about their family and loved ones but in no way do i think oh yeah baby lets get it on..!. Wheres the respect gone for women?. And before somebody says I'm a happy-clappy liberal modern muslim, I'm certainly not. I simply respect women and insha-allah when I become a boss of my own firm I'm gonna hire the single moms/disabled first, put in a creche and give em every chance to help them in their lives, that to me is Islaam. That to me is better than them staying on the crappy social system and getting their lives hammerd. That to me is better than any welfare or support programe. Bro Nomi please don't paste verses of the Quran and say thats enough end of story, its not. Lives are more complicated than that and Islam is not simply black and white, come to the UK and I'll take you a couple of streets away from where I live and their rizq operates at night, yes they are prostitutes. Let me go a bit further, you've probably heard of Moulana Sajjad Nomani, a very experienced and intellectual scholar who once said in his gatherings that his wife one day she came home from the neighbours and she was in tears. Upon questioning  Moulana Sajjad found that after the womans husband had passed away there was no source of income from anywhere, food had become short and sadly she couldn't get work . In the end to feed her and her family she resorted to prostitution, yes this is a Muslim woman, due to this Moulana Sajjad started a charity called the Rahman foundation to help women get back on their feet. So lets remove our rose tinted glasses and help each other, I can give you several other examples from where my wife worked and the torment and depression and hurt some of the women go through is unbeliveable. And what did they want? an opportunity to prove to their bigots of husband(s) that they too can earn money for Allah and support the family. Nothing more they still love Allah and their husbands and would never invite or sleep with anyone else but rather they would do something positive than watching the day time soaps and getting high on prozak. Salaams Hanif
NS

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
UmmWafi
09/27/03 at 20:18:43
[slm] [i]Watches while Bro Nomi tries to shield himself from the heat[/i] Dear Bro, much as I [s]am amused[/s] sympathise with you for your valiant attempts at defending your original [s]problematic[/s][s]uh oh kinda[/s] uhhh controversial statements, I am afraid I have to add fuel to the fire.  :-[ First and foremost, as Muslims, how on earth do we make statements like "so and so took away the job of so and so" or "so and so's action deprived so and so from a living" ? Don't we believe in the concept of Allah's Providence ? Do we not believe in qadr ? Do we not believe that Allah Bestow rizq on whom He Pleaseth ?  If a sister has tried her level best to study a particular field out of her love for Allah's knowledge, then what is wrong for her getting a job as a sign that Allah is Pleased with her efforts ? You say that she deprived the men from that same job ? How can she deprive them when she was not involved in the selection process ? How can she deprive them when it is Allah SWT who Decide on the mens' fate ?  It is always easy to take the latest copy of the Sociology Society Review and quote statistics on urban living and the concept of gender balance in the modern world.  However, what we need to do is to Islamise what we read and hear to make sure our orientation towards reality is with an Islamic framework. Secondly, sure, there are women who claim that "they will never marry because they want to pursue their careers".  Well, there are men who claim "they will never marry because there are just to many women for them to just be content with one".  And we are talking abt men who confess they are Muslims  ::) So, what ? How do we deduce a whole complex social problem from the misquided words of a few ? So you know three muslimahs who said that but I know more than three muslimahs who are professionals and want to get married to good muslims.  What was the point again ? Thirdly, for some jobs, granted, there are equal opportunity for both men and women to excel in them.  Should the women always make way for the men then ? If that is the case, where were all the male counsellors when I had to counsel a 9-year old rape victim ? Where were all the male counsellors when I had to counsel a 16-year old pregnant girl abused by her father and brothers ? Where were all the male counsellors when a man cried in front of me because his marriage broke down due to his impotence ?  Need I say more ? Bro, maybe, just maybe, things happen the way they are because of a reason ?  I think so.  What do you think ? Wassalam

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
Nomi
09/28/03 at 00:12:19
--UmmWafi [quote] Don't we believe in the concept of Allah's Providence ? Do we not believe in qadr ? Do we not believe that Allah Bestow rizq on whom He Pleaseth ? [/quote] Now sis UmmWafi.. did you read all the posts? Please do that inshaAllah and you'll know that our stance was the same! --UmmWafi [quote] So you know three muslimahs who said that but I know more than three muslimahs who are professionals and want to get married to good muslims.  What was the point again ? [/quote] The point is that i was *asked* to present a case... My posts before that dint say that! That'll answer you Q? inshaAllah --UmmWafi [quote] when I had to counsel a 9-year old rape victim ? Where were all the male counsellors when I had to counsel a 16-year old pregnant girl abused by her father and brothers ? Where were all the male counsellors when a man cried in front of me because his marriage broke down due to his impotence ?  Need I say more ? [/quote] I DID NOT paint all of them with the same brush, MANY who work do it for legitimate reasons. This thread is all about those who are provided for and everything is happy go lucky BUT they STILL need to work. To answer your questions.... they were there tending to *other such cases* --BroHanif [quote] Bro this is disgraceful how can you say this?. A very naive view of women and one where if we operate ourselves in such an environment then we are our selves to blame. [/quote] Before i reply to your post broHanif let me say this that although you got me *totally* wrong but n e thing is acceptable from you with an open heart here inshaAllah. Now to answer the points you made.... That point about marketing was brought up by a sister, not me! --BroHanif [quote] Other work sectors are not practical and it would get your heart and the other men of Pakstan thumping loudly? Its ridiculous seriously, such a low view of women, that if one talks to them the nx minute your going to end up in bed with em? Jeez man, c'mon [/quote] I dont know whats your view of Pakistan is, its a society where you'll find as *liberal* people as you can find any where else in the world and big cities like mine are booming with this class and then you'll also find those people living in plastic bags. My heart doesn't thump loudly as my past was not a no-mix islam-islam thing. And i'm definitly not week towards the opposite gender, same is the case with many *converts* like myself. Some of points that you guys make about this part of the world make it seem like <withheld comments> --BroHanif [quote] Where I work I have three women and the rest are 12 men, no we are not hot blooded and froth at the mouth when we see these women, in fact I treat them as my mom [/quote] I dont treat them as a prosi either! c'mon Hanif bhai, you wrote this post in rage right? I'm calm inshaAllah <insert a smiley here>. I *know* that before blaming someone we are required to find 70 excuses for that person, but what room does it leaves to find an excuse when the ladies are themselves telling you stuff that they are ALL for career and that they are well off but JUST doing a job for time pass. Again i dont know, actually i'm dumbfounded by this post of yours and am thinking to make this post my last in this thread as i'm being highly misunderstood! --BroHanif [quote] Wheres the respect gone for women?. [/quote] Its Here there and everywhere, they are my sisters, my mothers and <insert all the respectful words here> Dont know what else to say than [slm] [i]I'll modify this post later[/i] . . . oh just to show that me is calm! => :)
09/28/03 at 00:24:40
Nomi

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
Ruqayyah
09/28/03 at 03:00:06
[slm] Nomi, I have to say your posts leave me shaking my head in bewilderment. You really polarize the situation and make it seem like women are on 2 extremes: On the one hand, there are the career oriented women who don't wear hijab and don't want to have families or strive to be good Muslimahs. The other extreme is hijabi's raising families. My question to you is, why can't you do both? I mean if you're going to go to all that trouble (not to mention the cost!) of getting an education, you owe it to yourself and the rest of the world to at least contribute to your community w/ the knowledge you've acquired. [quote]I DID NOT paint all of them with the same brush, MANY who work do it for legitimate reasons. This thread is all about those who are provided for and everything is happy go lucky BUT they STILL need to work. To answer your questions.... they were there tending to *other such cases* [/quote] What if these women who are well provided for financially have been blessed with some kind of gift or talent that would benefit their community? Should they just sacrifice the good that would come of it? I think UmmWafi is an excellent example of someone who is using the talents Allah swt has blessed her with to contribute to the world she's living in and inshallah helping to make a difference in people's lives. [wlm]

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
Nomi
09/28/03 at 03:10:35
Assalamu Alaikum [quote] Moulana Sajjad found that after the womans husband had passed away there was no source of income from anywhere, food had become short and sadly she couldn't get work . In the end to feed her and her family she resorted to prostitution, yes this is a Muslim woman [/quote] What should be done in this situation is quite clear, not only shall we try to help this woman by zakah and ask all our friends to do the same but also we must use all our links to find a job for this lady. At least this is what *i* would have done. But this incident is misleading in context of this topic. Apart from a general rule that was mentioned in "who said what to whom thread" there is another rule that all of us follow (myself included) i.e. if i'm doing it then its right! [quote author=UmmWafi link=board=ummah;num=1064565021;start=15#16 date=09/27/03 at 20:18:43] [slm] [i]Watches while Bro Nomi tries to shield himself from the heat[/i] Dear Bro, much as I [s]am amused[/s] sympathise with you for your valiant attempts at defending your original [s]problematic[/s][s]uh oh kinda[/s] uhhh controversial statements[/quote] I presented an ayah but it was rejected by saying that it doesn't address all the situations! [quote] "And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance, and perform As-Salaah (Iqamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah and obey Allaah and His Messenger. Allaah wishes only to remove Ar-Rijs (evil deeds and sins) from you, O members of the family (of the Prophet), and to purify you with a thorough purification. And remember (O you the members of the Prophet’s family, the Graces of your Lord), that which is recited in your houses of the Verses of Allaah and Al-Hikmah (i.e. Prophet’s Sunnah legal ways, so give your thanks to Allaah and glorify His Praises for this Qur’aan and the Sunnah). Verily, Allaah is Ever Most Courteous, Well-Acquainted with all things" [al-Ahzaab 33:33-34] [/quote] and then i went 'shopping' and pasted below is a fatwa. we might reject this too but then what does it come down to? nafs? or may be there is still an option left i.e. 'the local imam', that'll be good inshaAllah coz not everything what we are doing at the moment can be 100% right! right? (same is true for myself) -------- Question: I am a muslim woman raised with basic Islamic teachings but overall in a more Western way - educated abroad in a European university, and worked thereafter in a large multinational following what is traditionally known as the "career path". This way of life has been encouraged by the parents and the lifestyle under which I have been raised. Furtheremore as my parents are no longer working I have become the financial support for the family. I am currently living alone at 31 years in a Western country where there are no Arabs or Mulsims around. And due to my Islamic upbriging find myself islolated from my surroundings as I have no interest in going to parties, bars, dating etc.... My choices are 2. To return home under the parents umbrella and settle for any work to keep me busy and if lucky find a husband. This will however mean sacrificing income at least for the short term which will be difficult for the family as well as sacrificing a very good position at the company I am in. Or alternately continue in this career path hoping that someday I will meet a good muslim man who can help me live a more mulsim way of life. What is the isalmic point of view in such instances. Answer: Praise be to Allaah. The choice facing our sister is a choice between what is right and what is wrong, between what is halaal and what is haraam. Hence we can only advise our sister to protect the best thing that she possesses, which is her religion and chastity, and to stay with her family so as to protect herself and be among those who will protect her. Perhaps Allaah will make it easy for her to find work that is acceptable according to sharee’ah, and a righteous husband. We give her the glad tidings of the hadeeth of the Prophet  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever gives up something for the sake of Allaah, Allaah will compensate him with something better than that.” (Classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani – may Allaah have mercy on him – in Hijaab al-Mar’ah al-Muslimah). How many brothers and sisters have left their work– even when they were earning lots of money – leaving for the sake of Allaah after learning that the environment they were in went against Islamic rulings, then Allaah opened many ways for them and gave them a bountiful provision, and guided their hearts to something better than they had been following before. We also want to remind our sister about her parents, and tell her that staying with them and taking care of them is much better than being apart from them. She should not pay attention to their wishes that she should do work that is not acceptable according to sharee’ah. Many people are keen for worldly things, and they do not pay attention to the forbidden and objectionable things that may surround the work their daughters and sons do. Striving for the purpose of this transient world at the expense of one’s religion is not something that we accept for our sisters or daughters, or for the sister who is asking this question. You should not pay any attention to the fact that this is an international company or that the salary is tempting. That does not mean anything if it also brings the wrath of Allaah. It is bad enough that you are with non-mahram men at work, let alone that you are in a country where there are no Muslims. Moreover, you may have to travel without a mahram to the kuffaar countries and stay among them. You may be living in a house on your own, which poses a danger to your religious commitment, your person and your honour, as is quite obvious. The Islamic texts indicate that it is haraam for women to mix with men, to travel without a mahram and to settle among the kuffaar. Your idea of isolating yourself of which you speak may not last for long, because of the many temptations and the lack of help and support. The path of evil starts with one step, and if a person follows it, it may be difficult for him to think of himself and his Hereafter. By the Grace of Allaah towards you, you are seeking advice and knowledge of the Islamic rulings, so do not feel any regrets about this world. Simple things are sufficient for the one who is content with what Allaah gives him; it is greed that destroys taqwa and robs people of their common sense. There is nothing to stop you from looking for work that is acceptable according to sharee’ah, especially since some companies now employ people at home, letting them do their work via the Internet. This may be a suitable alternative, especially for Muslim women. We ask Allaah to guide you to that which will be beneficial for you, and to protect your religious commitment, for He is the One Who is the Guardian of that and is Able to do that. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad. And Allaah knows best. Islam Q&A Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com) PS: those of who who are new to this thread and wanna comment, please go through all the posts first, thanks.
09/28/03 at 03:14:20
Nomi

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
faisalsb
09/28/03 at 03:26:29
[slm] :) Well I think original post of brother Nomi was secular in nature and he tried to brought up some social and economical issues according to his point of view. But it seems he himself got astray in between and mixed it up with Islamic teachings and other issues. I'll generally agree with what sister Jannah and brother Hanif said in their posts, I think both of them covered it very well. Here are my two cents. I think its pre-assumption that having career is motivating women not to get married instead I think it's the other way around. My observation is the women who can't get married due to any reason they try to have career to keep them busy instead of being idle and sitting at home and doing nothing. Some people say economical independence is contributing to higher divorce rate since earlier many women used to sustain abuse and mistreatment and didn't get divorce since they couldn't support themselves but certainly that's entirely a difference subject. Regarding the question that women are taking away jobs from men particularly the women who don't need it. I think brother Nomi has met some two faced person which is not uncommon in Pakistan. I have a cousin, she works in Pakistan. She have two kids and one husband to support since her husband doesn't work. What ever business her husband starts it ends up with loss. But at her work place she keeps on telling her friends and colleagues that she belongs to a rich family and just working to PASS TIME. I really don't know why she does that but I think it's due to status conscience society of Pakistan. She works long hours to support her family and works too hard which is obvious from her health. Her family and many others advised her to GET RID of her husband but she doesn't want that since he doesn't have any other bad quality except he doesn't have work or he doesn't want to work. But I am sure if she didn't have CAREER she must have taken divorce long time ago since it has been more than a decade being in such a situation. Well women do get preference in certain jobs but I think it's less due to having SOFT CORNER and more due to other economical and social factors. For instance mostly women in UAE are on husband's or father's sponsorship, so if an employer hire a female employee he doesn't need to invest money in getting visa for her and go through other legal other formalities. An other factor which is common in many countries is that women are ready to work on lower wages since mostly they are not the principal bread winners. But there are also disadvantages to hire female workers since usually they are not ready to work in night shifts or stay late in office after office time e.g. on overtime, special assignments etc. Usually female workers are not willing to travel much or work in an industrial remote areas where they are exposed to polluted environment e.g. Onshore or offshore petroleum industries, civil construction companies etc. What I am trying to say is both male and female workers have some advatages and disadvantages in economy and  they do exploit it also to get a job. But this is not the case that anyone of them is snatching other's bread.
09/28/03 at 03:47:10
faisalsb

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
Nomi
09/28/03 at 13:17:17
[slm] --Faisal [quote] Well I think original post of brother Nomi was secular in nature and he tried to brought up some social and economical issues according to his point of view [/quote] Nope Faisal bhai, from the very beginning i wanted to discuss its islamic perspective! --Ruqayyah [quote] What if these women who are well provided for financially have been blessed with some kind of gift or talent that would benefit their community? Should they just sacrifice the good that would come of it? [/quote] You know what, it seems like that question which anti-hijaab people put to our sisters. "God has blessed you with beauty, why hide it then" ::). I hope you got my point. --Ruqayyah [quote] You really polarize the situation and make it seem like women are on 2 extremes: On the one hand, there are the career oriented women who don't wear hijab and don't want to have families or strive to be good Muslimahs [/quote] Dear sis it seems that you dint really go through all the posts and if you did then you shouldn't have said so!! Here is what i explained that is allowed according to my understanding. 1] Females teachers 2] Female doctors 3] Community services that sis UmmWafi mentioned and apart from that when a lady has no one to provide for her OR when her husband isn't earning enough to support the family and education of children then that lady can work and even then a secluded environment should be preffered but if thats difficult then its her jihad all along to work with men. wassalam. PS: i'd like to read sis talibatul-ilm's; sis Nur-ul-Layl's; bro Abu_Hamza's and bro Nawawi's point of view on this one, if they can kindly spare some time :)
09/28/03 at 14:37:03
Nomi

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
lucid9
09/28/03 at 17:13:29
[slm] Educated hijabis don't really wanna get married very soon.  Even to well off and hyper educated practicing brothers.  How would I know?  Gee,  i wonder?!   I mean at my last uni (Cambridge) guys like used to hide for cover after approaching a sister, cuz the sisters were kindof   like "Excuse me brother, can you like drop dead now?  Or do I have to get my chainsaw?" My sister, who is the most clever girl i have ever met, will insha Allah get married right after graduating from college.  That is a very big risk for her, cuz its really hard to predict which guys are gonna turn out to be neandrathals and which are gonna be angels.  But still, i think she has come to terms with it...and this is only because of the odd nature of our family.  But her friends, and other muslim sisters....they're kinda all for dissing guys...like kindof giving them the islamic version of the middle finger...!  We wanna a life and carreer, and until we go it -- here's the bird for you, you silly boys...! Ok well not quite, but close enough... btw who's lucid?  Oh and please make dua for my sister (not because she has a butthead brother like myself but so that she gets the right boy to marry bi ithnillah....i love my sister(s) very very much :) ) May Allah bless you all....and get all of you married :) to wonderful people.
09/28/03 at 17:22:28
lucid9

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
Ruqayyah
09/28/03 at 20:03:56
[slm] [quote]Educated hijabis don't really wanna get married very soon.  Even to well off and hyper educated practicing brothers. [/quote] Really?  I beg to differ. I'm tellin you people, it's the lack of brothers. Either people are interested b/c of the two little letters that will inshallah be after my name in less than a year but then are scared off b/c i'm "too religious" or i'm religious enough, but wait you actually want to go out of the house? sorry, not my kind of girl. what is a girl to do?  :-) [wlm]

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
Nomi
09/28/03 at 21:41:37
[slm] [quote author=hyper link=board=ummah;num=1064565021;start=15#22 date=09/28/03 at 17:13:29] 1] My sister, who is the most clever girl i have ever met, will insha Allah get married right after graduating from college.  That is a very big risk for her, cuz its really hard to predict which guys are gonna turn out to be neandrathals and which are gonna be angels . . 2]btw who's lucid?  [/quote] Lucid, dang yaar, why do u change all the threads to marriage ones !!! Okay now to answer your post 1] Why dont you get in touch with broHanif, he doesn't live very far away from you and must be knowing some good Muslim lads ! What do ye say? 2] Lucid is a..... <insert hyper's personal text here :P > wassalam an ex-hyper ;)
09/29/03 at 04:33:58
Nomi

I don't get it.
bhaloo
09/28/03 at 21:44:16
[slm] I'm confused, I don't get it.  I've been thinking about it for a while now, but can't keep it in any longer.  Abu Hamza has a guitar box? ???   He plays the guitar?

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
faisalsb
09/29/03 at 04:07:41
[slm] :) Well said brother Bhaloo you are not able to get it but I got what you meant exactly ..............;)

Re: I don't get it.
SisterHania
09/29/03 at 04:12:30
[quote author=bhaloo link=board=ummah;num=1064565021;start=15#25 date=09/28/03 at 21:44:16][slm] I'm confused, I don't get it.  I've been thinking about it for a while now, but can't keep it in any longer.  Abu Hamza has a guitar box? ???   He plays the guitar?  [/quote] [wlm] No Señor Bhaloo, he uses his guitar case to hold his water gun like Antonio Banderas from 'Once upon a time in Mexcio' (I have not seen it)

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
bhaloo
09/29/03 at 09:41:52
[slm] [quote author=Hania link=board=ummah;num=1064565021;start=0#10 date=09/27/03 at 10:01:45]Does this figure represent the property market in the whole of the states or one particular area? I think the average house price in London is now £233,683 and that is AFTER a fall in prices. A house at this price will also be a dinky bird cage size. London is such an expensive city  :( Back in Egypt we could live in a palace by the nile for £233,683 ahhhhhh if only......[/quote] It represents one particular area, about 40 square miles worth, what is that in kilometers, like 60 square kilometers.  But yeah, there are places outside of the area that are much more affordable, but then there are no high tech companies at all in those areas, so there are no jobs, well except for emergency personel like doctors, firemen, policemen.   Ok, the guitar case makes sense now, thanks. :)

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
theOriginal
09/29/03 at 13:48:14
[slm] Who says we can't get have a career, get married, have 6 kids, raise them to be amazing Muslims, adopt 6 more, be kind to your parents, care for your family, be civil to the in-laws (in some cases even love them wholeheartedly), pursue a religious education, continue formal education, open a Demetre's on Zamzama in Karachi (guys no stealing my business venture, aite?  It's altruistic in nature, I promise...no one should miss out on that chocolate cake), do some charitable work, find time to go skydiving, travel, ANNNNNNNNND smile everyday?  Huhuh who says? Oh and if HE wants my job, HE can work for it.  I can take the heat--err-- competition. Wasalaam.

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
bhaloo
09/29/03 at 21:28:35
[slm] I've always been scared of sky-diving, the whole scared of heights phenomena.  I even close my eyes on the roller coasters with big drops.   :(  Demetre's on Zamzama, hmmm, I haven't heard of that one.  Whatever happened to that JO's Places to Eat in Karachi list? ???

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
Nomi
09/30/03 at 01:38:51
[slm] [i](This post is more towards the funny side...... so, no offense plz) [/i] [quote author=JustOne link=board=ummah;num=1064565021;start=15#29 date=09/29/03 at 13:48:14] Who says we can't get have a career, get married, have 6 kids, raise them to be amazing Muslims, adopt 6 more, be kind to your parents, care for your family, be civil to the in-laws (in some cases even love them wholeheartedly), pursue a religious education, continue formal education, do some charitable work,   [/quote] She came here, she read nothing, she closed her eyes and started hitting those keys :P. But she still managed to get the bold part right :) [quote] find time to go skydiving, travel, ANNNNNNNNND smile everyday? [/quote] Skydiving is quite awkward thing to do you know, i mean the flowing clothes etc and if one wears that fitted dress then we'll be answerable to Allah, no? Yep you can smile i have got no problems with that :) [quote] its all truistic in nature [/quote] But we were talking about religion<= <insert that awkward smiley with the bulb here> [quote] Huhuh who says? [/quote] It was me, but at least i dont bite hard ! Arshad bhai wrote [quote] Ok, the guitar case makes sense now, thanks :) [/quote] Got it now :) . And you know Arshad bhai, a tag team match up is easier but when you are in a Royal Rumble match and rules are a bit different then its really hard. Ah! but so far so good, no one posted any scholarly opinion and i've already answered few questions guess i'll have to go 'shopping' again and find some words from Shaykh Hamza Yusuf or Shaykh Taymiyah!! wassalam.
09/30/03 at 09:14:29
Nomi

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
jannah
09/30/03 at 03:09:13
[slm] [quote] Nope Faisal bhai, from the very beginning i wanted to discuss its islamic perspective![/quote] Well the Islamic perspective is that women are given the right to work and earn money. So what else is there to say except one's own opinions?

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
Nomi
09/30/03 at 03:33:07
[wlm] ~Sigh~ all my previous posts! but then we've never really seen anyone 'giving in' or have we! Sorry but this i would call an ego thing as no one really replied to my posts with proper backing of shariah rulings and probly no one took the pain of reading that fatwa from shaykh Al-Munajjid that i posted. [quote author=jannah link=board=ummah;num=1064565021;start=30#32 date=09/30/03 at 03:09:13] Well the Islamic perspective is that women are given the right to work and earn money. [/quote] Yes they do have the right to earn money but there are [i]conditions[/i]. wassalam
09/30/03 at 03:38:39
Nomi

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
bhaloo
09/30/03 at 08:23:12
[slm] [quote author=jannah link=board=ummah;num=1064565021;start=30#32 date=09/30/03 at 03:09:13] Well the Islamic perspective is that women are given the right to work and earn money. So what else is there to say except one's own opinions? [/quote] There are different views on this matters, and one can't make such a blanket statement like that and it depends on the circumstances involved.  Personally I don't like when people do that unless they list out what the scholarrs have said on the matte or the opinion of the scholar they follow. When I was reading Nomi's posts, some of it was strange, but some of it, I knew where he was getting the information from, but he wasn't citing the complete references.  So let me put up the information he was trying to convey with a scholarly reference. From Islam-QA.com Question : My husband and I wanted to know if it were permissable to take Arabic classes at a college where the classes are mixed (men-women). We understand that there is no mixing between the sexes, but confused about the definition of "mixing". Please tell us what is permissable, what is not and give proof Answer : Praise be to Allaah.   The meeting together, mixing, and intermingling of men and women in one place, the crowding of them together, and the revealing and exposure of women to men are prohibited by the Law of Islam (Shari'ah). These acts are prohibited because they are among the causes for fitnah (temptation or trial which implies evil consequences), the arousing of desires, and the committing of indecency and wrongdoing. Among the many proofs of prohibition of the meeting and mixing of men and women in the Qur’aan and Sunnah are: Verse No. 53 of Surat al-Ahzab, or the Confederates (Interpretation of the meaning); "...for anything ye want, ask them from before a screen: that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs..." In explaining this Verse, Ibn Kathir (May Allaah have mercy on him) said: "Meaning, as I forbade you to enter their rooms, I forbid you to look at them at all. If one wants to take something from a woman, one should do so without looking at her. If one wants to ask a woman for something, the same has to be done from behind a screen." The Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) enforced separation of men and women even at Allaah’s most revered and preferred place, the mosque. This was accomplished via the separation of the women’s rows from the men’s; men were asked to stay in the mosque after completion of the obligatory prayer so that women will have enough time to leave the mosque; and, a special door was assigned to women. Evidence of the foregoing are: Umm Salamah (May Allah be pleased with her) said that after Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said "as-Salamu ‘Alaykum wa Rahmatullah’ twice announcing the end of prayer, women would stand up and leave. He would stay for a while before leaving. Ibn Shihab said that he thought that the staying of the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) was in order for the women to be able to leave before the men who wanted to depart." Narrated by al-Bukhari under No. 793. Abu Dawood under No. 876 narrates the same hadith in Kitab al-Salaat under the title "Insiraaf an-Nisaa’ Qabl al-Rijaal min al-Salaah" (Departure of Women before Men after the Prayer). Ibn ‘Umar said that Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: "We should leave this door (of the mosque) for women." Naafi’ said: "Ibn ‘Umar never again entered through that door until he died." Narrated by Abu Dawood under No. 484 in "Kitab as-Salah" under the Chapter entitled: "at-Tashdid fi Thalik". Abu Hurayrah said that the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: ""The best of the men’s rows is the first and the worst is the last, and the best of the women’s rows is the last and the worst in the first." Narrated by Muslim under No. 664. This is the greatest evidence that the Law of Islam (Shari'ah) forbids meeting and mixing of men and women. The farther the men are from the women’s rows, the better, and vice versa. If these procedures and precautions were prescribed and adhered to in a mosque, which is a pure place of worship where people are as far away as they ever are from the arousal of desire and temptation, then no doubt the same procedures need to be followed even more rigorously at other places. Abu Usayd al-Ansari narrated that he heard Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) say to the women on his way out of the mosque when he saw men and women mixing together on their way home: ‘Give way (i.e., walk to the sides) as it is not appropriate for you to walk in the middle the road.’ Thereafter, women would walk so close to the wall that their dresses would get caught on it. Narrated by Abu Dawood in "Kitab al-Adab min Sunanihi, Chapter: Mashyu an-Nisa Ma’ ar-Rijal fi at-Tariq."We know that the intermingling, mixing and crowding together of men and women is part of today’s unavoidable yet regrettable affliction in most places, such as markets, hospitals, colleges, etc., but: · We will not willfully choose or accept mixing and crowding, particularly in religious classes and council meetings in Islamic Centers. · We take precautions to avoid meeting and mixing of men and women as much as possible while at the same time achieving desired goals and objectives. This result can be achieved by designating separate places assigned for men and women, using different doors for each, utilizing modern means of communication such as microphones, video recorders etc., and expediting efforts to have enough female teachers to teach women, etc. · We show fear of Allaah as much as we can by not looking at members of the opposite sex and by applying self-restraint. There follow some of the results of a study on mixing undertaken by some Muslim social science researchers.   When we put the following question: What is the Islamic ruling on mixing as far as you know? The results were as follows: 76% of respondents said “It is not permitted.” 12% said, “It is permitted” – but moral, religious, etc. restrictions apply… 12% said, “I don’t know.”   Which would you choose? If you had the choice between working in a mixed workplace and working in another where there was no mixing, which would you choose? The responses to this question were as follows: 76% would choose the workplace where there was no mixing. 9% preferred the mixed workplace. 15% would accept any workplace which suited their specialties, regardless of whether it was mixed or not.   Very embarrassing   Have any embarrassing situations ever happened to you because of mixing?   Among the embarrassing moments mentioned by respondents in this study were the following:   I was at work one day, and  I went into one department where one of my female colleagues who wears hijaab had taken off her hijaab in front of her female colleagues. My entrance took her by surprise and I was very embarrassed as a result.   I had to do an experiment in the lab at university, but I was absent on the day of the experiment. I had to go to the lab on the following day, and I found myself the only male among a group of female students, in addition to a female teacher and a female lab technician. I was very embarrassed and felt very awkward with all those female eyes glaring at me.   I was trying to take a feminine towel out of one of the drawers when I was surprised by a male colleague standing behind me, who wanted to take something from his own private drawer. He noticed that I was embarrassed and he left the room quickly to avoid my embarrassment.   It so happened that one of the girls at the university bumped into me when turning a corner in a crowded corridor. She was walking quickly, going to one of the lectures. As a result of this collision, she lost her balance, and I caught her in my arms, as if I was embracing her. You can imagine how embarrassed I and this girl felt in front of a group of careless young people.   One of my female colleagues fell on the stairs in the university and her clothes fell open in an extremely embarrassing fashion. She landed upside down and could not help herself; the young men standing nearby had no option but to cover her and help her to get up.   I work in a company and I went in to give some papers to my boss. When I was going out, my boss called me back. I turned around and saw him with his face turned away. I was waiting for him to ask me for a file or for more papers, and I was surprised by his hesitancy. I turned away to the left side of his office, pretending to be busy with something, and he spoke to me at the same time. I thought that this boss would say anything except what he actually said, which was to point out that my garment was stained with menstrual blood. Can the earth open up and swallow a human being at the moment of making sincere supplication? For I prayed that the earth would open up and swallow me.   Victims of mixing… True stories   Lost hope   Umm Muhammad, a mature woman over the age of 40, tells her story.   I lived a life of modest means with my husband. There was never any closeness and harmony, and my husband did not have the kind of strong personality that a woman would hope for, but his good nature made me overlook the fact that I was the one who was responsible for most of the decision making in the family.   My husband often used to mention the name of his friend and business partner, and he would talk about him in my presence, and I often used to meet with him in his office which was originally part of our apartment. This went on for many years, until circumstances led to us exchanging visits with this person and his family. These family visits were repeated and because of his close friendship with my husband, we did not notice how the number of visits increased and how many hours a single visit would last. He often used to come on his own to sit with us, me and my husband, for long visits. My husband’s trust in him knew no bounds, and as days passed I got to know this person very well, and saw how wonderful and decent he was.  I began to feel a strong attraction towards this man, and at the same time I began to sense that the feeling was mutual. Things took a strange turn after that, when I realized that this man was the kind of person I had always dreamed about. Why had he come along now, after all these years? The more this man’s status increased in my eyes, the more my husband’s status diminished. It was as if I had needed to see the beauty of his character in order to discover how ugly my husband’s character was. The matter between this person and myself did not go beyond these persistent thoughts which were occupying my mind night and day. Neither he nor I ever voiced what we felt in our hearts… until today. Yet despite that my life is over and my husband is little more than a weak man with no self-esteem. I hate him and I do not know how all this hatred towards him started to boil over. I wonder how I put up with him all these years, bearing all these burdens by myself, facing life’s problems on my own. Things got so bad that I asked him for a divorce, and he divorced me at my request. After that he became a broken man. Even worse than that is that after my marriage was wrecked and my children and husband were devastated, problems arose in this man's family. His wife, with her feminine intuition, realized what had been going on in his heart of hearts, and his life became hell. She was overwhelmed with jealousy to the extent that one night she left her house at 2 a.m. and came to attack my house, screaming, weeping and hurling accusations. His marriage was also about to collapse. I admit that the lovely gatherings which we used to enjoy gave us the opportunity to get to know one another at a time that was not appropriate at this stage in our lives. His marriage has been wrecked and so has mine. I have lost everything, and now I know that my circumstances and his will not permit us to take any positive step towards coming together. Now I am more miserable than I have ever been, and I am looking for illusionary happiness and lost hopes. Tit-for-tat Umm Ahmad tells us: My husband had a group of married friends, and because of our close friendship with them, we used to get together with them once a week in one of our houses, to enjoy an evening of chat. Deep down in my heart I was never really comfortable with the atmosphere in which we would have dinner, sweets, snacks and drinks of juice accompanied by waves of laughter because of the jokes and chit-chats that often went beyond the bounds of good manners.   In the name of friendship, the barriers were lifted and every now and then one would hear suppressed laughter between a woman and the husband of another woman. The jokes were too much, dealing – with no sense of shyness –with sensitive topics such as sex and women’s private matters. This was usual and was even accepted and regarded as desirable. Although I indulged in these things along with them, my conscience made me feel guilty. Then the day came when it became quite clear just how ugly and filthy this atmosphere was. The telephone rang, and I heard the voice of one of the friends in this group. I said hello to him and apologized that my husband was not home. He replied that he knew that, and that he was calling to speak to me! After he suggested starting a relationship with me, I got very angry and spoke harshly to him and cursed him. All he could do was laugh and say, “Don’t try and show these good manners to me; go and check on your husband’s good manners and see what he is doing…” I was devastated by what he said, but I pulled myself together and said to myself, this person is only trying to cause the break up of your marriage. But he succeeded in planting the seeds of doubt concerning my husband.   Shortly after that, the major disaster struck. I discovered that my husband was cheating on me with another woman. It was the matter of life or death as far as I was concerned. I found my husband out and I confronted him, saying: “You are not the only one who can have a relationship. I have received a similar proposition.” And I told him all about his friend. He was stunned and absolutely shocked. (I said:) “If you want me to respond in kind to your relationship with that woman, then this is for that, tit-for-tat.” This was a huge slap in the face for him. He knew that I did not intend to do that in reality, but he realized the great disaster that had befallen our lives and the immoral atmosphere in which we were living. I suffered a great deal until my husband finally left that loose woman with whom he was having a relationship, as he admitted to me. Yes, he left her and came back to his family and children, but how can I ever feel the same towards him as I used to? Who will restore respect for him in my heart? This huge wound in my heart is still bleeding out of regret and rage at that filthy atmosphere; it still bears testimony to the fact that what they call innocent get-togethers are in reality anything but innocent. My heart still begs for mercy from the Lord of Glory.   Intelligence can also be a temptation (fitnah) ‘Abd al-Fattaah says:   I work as the head of department in one of the big companies. For a long time I admired one of my female colleagues, not for her beauty, but for her serious attitude towards her work, her intelligence and her excellent achievements – in addition to the fact that she was a decent and modest person who focused only on her work. This admiration turned into attachment, and I am a married man who fears Allaah and never misses any obligatory prayer. I expressed my feelings to her and she rebuffed me. She is married and has children as well. She sees no reason why I should have any kind of relationship with her, whether it be friendship, as work colleagues or based on admiration… etc. Evil thoughts come to me sometimes, and deep down I wish that her husband would divorce her so that I could get her. I started to put pressure on her at work and put her down in front of my bosses. Perhaps this was a form of revenge on my part, but she accepted it with good manners and did not complain or comment. She works and works; her performance speaks of her quality, and she knows this well. The more she resisted me, the stronger my infatuation grew.   I am not a person who is easily tempted by women, because I fear Allaah and I do not overstep the mark with them and go beyond what is required by my work. But this woman attracted me. What is the solution?… I do not know. Baby ducks know how to swim N.A.A., a nineteen-year-old girl, tells us:   At that time I was a little girl. My innocent eyes watched those evening get-togethers when family friends would meet in the house. What I remember is that I could only see one man, who was my father. I watched him as he moved about the room, how his glances would devour the women present, looking at their thighs and chests, admiring this one’s eyes, that one’s hair, the other’s hips. My poor mother had no choice but to take care of these get-togethers. She was a very simple lady.   Among the women present there was one woman who would deliberately try to attract my father’s attention, sometimes by coming close to him, and sometimes by making enticing movements. I would watch this with concern, whilst my mother was busy in the kitchen for the sake of her guests. These gatherings stopped suddenly and I tried, young as I was, to understand and make sense of what had happened, but I could not.   What I remember was that my mother collapsed completely at that time, and she could not stand to hear my father’s name mentioned in the house. I used to hear mysterious words whispered by the adults around me: “Betrayal… bedroom… she saw them with her own eyes… despicable woman… in a very shameful position…” etc. These were the key words which only the adults could understand. I grew up and came to understand, and I bore a grudge against all men. All of them were treacherous. My mother was a broken woman and accused every woman who came to us of being a man-snatcher who wanted to make my father fall into her trap. My father hasn’t changed. He is still practising his favourite hobby of chasing women, but now he does it outside the home. Now I am nineteen years old and I know lots of young men. I feel great pleasure in taking revenge on them, because every one of them is an exact copy of my father. I tempt them and entice them, without letting them get anywhere near me. They follow me in gatherings and in the marketplaces because of my movements and deliberate gestures. Sometimes my phone never stops ringing and I feel proud of what I do to avenge the sex of Hawwa’ and my mother. But sometimes I feel so miserable and such a failure that it almost chokes me. My life is shadowed by a huge dark cloud, and its name is my father.   Before it is too late S.N.A. tells of her experience:   I never imagined that my work circumstances would force me to be in contact with the opposite sex (men), but this in fact is what happened…   In the beginning,  I used to cover and screen myself from men by wearing niqaab (face-veil), but some of the sisters advised me that this dress was attracting more attention to my presence, and it would be better for me to take off the niqaab, especially since my eyes were somewhat attractive. So I removed the cover from my face, thinking that this was better. But by continuing to mix with my colleagues, I discovered that I was the odd one out because of my antisocial attitude and my insistence on not joining in the conversation and chatting with others. Everyone was wary of this “lone-wolf” woman (as they saw me), and this is what was stated clearly by one person who affirmed that he would not want to deal with such a snooty and stand-offish character. But I knew that I was the opposite, in fact, and I decided that I would not oppress myself and put myself in a difficult position with my colleagues. So I started to join in their chats and exchanges of anecdotes, and they all discovered that I could speak eloquently and persuasively, and that I could influence others. I could also speak in a manner that was determined yet at the same time was attractive to some of my colleagues. It was not long before I noticed some changes in the expression of my direct supervisor; with some embarrassment, he was enjoying the way I spoke and moved, and he would deliberately bring up topics in the conversation where I would see that hateful look in his eyes. I do not deny the fact that I started to entertain some thoughts about this man. I found it astonishing that a man could fall so easily into the trap of a woman who was religiously committed, so how must it be in the case of women who adorn themselves and invite men to commit immoral actions? In fact, I did not think of him in any way which went beyond the bounds of sharee’ah, but he did occupy a space in my thoughts for quite some time. But soon my self-respect made me reject the idea of being a source of enjoyment for this man in any way, shape or form, even if it was only psychological in nature, and I stopped getting involved in any kind of work that would force me to sit alone with him. In the end, I reached the following conclusions: 1-  Attraction between the sexes can occur in any circumstances, no matter how much men and women may deny that. The attraction may start within the bounds of sharee’ah and end up going beyond those bounds.     Even if a person protects himself (by marriage), he is not safe from the snares of the Shaytaan. 3-  Even though a person may be able to guarantee himself and he works with the opposite sex within reasonable limits, he cannot guarantee the feelings of the other party.     Finally, there is nothing good in mixing and it does not bear fruit as they claim. On the contrary, it corrupts sound thinking. What now? We may ask, what comes next, after this discussion on the matter of mixing? It’s about time for us to recognize that no matter how we try to beautify the issue of mixing and take the matter lightly, its consequences are bound to catch up with us, and the harm it causes will have disastrous results for our families. Sound common sense refuses to accept that mixing is a healthy atmosphere for human relations. This is the sound common sense which made most of the people included in this survey (76%) prefer working in a non-mixed environment. The same percentage (76%) said that mixing is not permitted according to the sharee’ah. What makes us sit up and take notice is not this honourable percentage – which indicates the purity of our Islamic society and the cleanness of its members’ hearts – but the small number who said that mixing is permitted; they number 12%. This group, with no exceptions, said that mixing is permitted but within the limits set by religion, custom (‘urf), traditions, good manners, conscience, modesty, covering and other worthy values which, in their opinion, keep mixing within proper limits. We ask them: is the mixing which we see nowadays in our universities, market-places, work-places and family and social gatherings, taking place within the limits referred to above? Or are these places filled with transgressions in terms of clothing, speech, interactions and behaviour? We see wanton displays of adornment (tabarruj), not proper covering; we see fitnah (temptations) and dubious relationships, with no good manners and no conscience and no covering. We can conclude that the kind of mixing that is happening nowadays is unacceptable even to those who approve of mixing in a clean atmosphere.   It’s about time for us to recognize that mixing provides a fertile breeding-ground for social poisons to invade and take over our society without anyone ever realizing that it is mixing which is the cause. Mixing is the prime element in this silent fitnah, in the shade of which betrayals erupt, homes are wrecked and hearts are broken.   We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound, and to reform our society. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad. Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid
09/30/03 at 08:37:27
bhaloo

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
bhaloo
09/30/03 at 08:32:28
[slm] Also from Islam-QA.com Question : My husband does not let me work or study, but I think that I am able for that. Does he have the right to prevent me from working or studying? He is not listening to me and that hurts my feelings. Answer : Praise be to Allaah.   Both spouses must refer to the sharee’ah concerning all matters in their lives. Whatever is the ruling of sharee’ah is what they must apply and follow. This is the way that leads to happiness and ease in this world and in the Hereafter, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “(And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination” [al-Nisa’ 4:59] With regard to women working and going out of the home, we say: 1 – The basic principle is that women should stay in their houses. This is indicated by the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance” [al-Ahzaab 33:33] Although this was addressed to the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), all believing women should follow them in that. It was addressed to the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) because of their honoured status and because they are the example for the believing women. This is also indicated by the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Woman is ‘awrah, and when she goes out the Shaytaan gets his hopes up. She is never closer to Allaah than when she is in the innermost part of her house.” (Narrated by Ibn Hibbaan and Ibn Khuzaymah; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah, no. 2688. And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said concerning women praying in the mosques: “Their houses are better for them.” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, 567’ classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood). 2 – It is permissible for a woman to work or study so long as a number of conditions are met: -         That this work is suited to the nature and aptitude of women, such as medicine, nursing, teaching, tailoring and so on. -         The work should be in a place that is for women only, with no mixing between the sexes. It is not permissible for a woman to study or work in a mixed school. -         The woman should wear proper Islamic hijaab at work. -         Her work should not lead to her travelling without a mahram. -         Her going out to work should not involve her committing any sin, such as being alone with the driver, or wearing perfume where non-mahram men will be able to smell it. -         That should not lead to her neglecting her duties of looking after the house or taking care of her husband and children. 3 – What you have mentioned about your being able and willing to work, teach or study is something good. Perhaps that will help you to serve Allaah, such as teaching Muslim girls in your house or in the Islamic center – subject to the conditions mentioned above – or doing something that will benefit you and your family, such as sewing and the like, which will be a means of stopping boredom. You could also join one of the Islamic Open Universities, which will let you enroll in a distance-learning program, so that you can increase your knowledge and understanding of Islam, as well as attaining a higher status before Allaah. For the angels lower their wings for the seeker of knowledge, and the inhabitants of the heavens and the earth pray for forgiveness for the scholar, even the fish in the sea, as it says in the hadeeth narrated by al-Tirmidhi (no. 2682), Abu Dawood (3641), al-Nasaa’i (158) and Ibn Maajah (223); this hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi. Ask Allaah to bless you with righteous offspring, because in raising these children a woman will fill her time and will not feel bored, and she will be rewarded for all of that, praise be to Allaah. Remember that it is obligatory to obey your husband unless he tells you to do something sinful. So if a husband tells his wife not to go out to work or to study, she has to obey him, and this will lead to her happiness and salvation. According to a hadeeth narrated by Ibn Hibbaan in his Saheeh, “If a woman prays her five daily prayers, fasts her month (of Ramadaan), guards her chastity and obeys her husband, it will be said to her: ‘Enter Paradise from whichever of its gates you wish.’” (Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 661). But the husband should not exploit this right to hurt his wife’s feelings or ignore her opinion or go against her wishes. Rather he has to fear Allaah and try to consult with his wife and discuss with her, and explain the shar’i ruling to her, and give her permissible alternatives that will make her happy, develop her potential and achieve some of what she wants. We ask Allaah to help us all to do that which He loves and which pleases Him. And Allaah knows best.

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
timbuktu
09/30/03 at 08:40:27
[slm] brother Nomi will blast me for not reading all the posts in this thread. well, i tried but all this is too much to digest, so brother i am trying to understand by asking a few questions, by giving examples, & i just hope i make sense. suppose a person dies or is incapacitated. You know there is no social security in the third world. we talk a lot about our zakat as a welfare system, but have you ever seen people hand out zakat? do you know how demeaning it is made out to be? & if a mother can earn for her children, she wouldn't want them to live on zakat. i won't name the persons here, although this tale was told in a newspaper by a very well-informed person of good repute. There was this religious leader, known for his piety, who also happened to be known & respected by the political leaders of British India. He had a madrassa in Lahore. One day, his call came & he went where we all have to go. Some years later, a small advertisement appeared in a newspaper advertising posts for women stitchers for dresses. On the appointed hour, in the open & on the street, a long queue formed of prospective female candidates, mostly in burqas. After a while a chair & a small table were brought out, & a man started interviewing the ladies. After some 7 or 8 had been interviewed, the next candidate was asked her name, she replied that was the widow of "maulana ............". At this the man got up, started shaking & crying, & offered the chair to that lady, who refused saying that she had come for the job, & not for a preferential treatment. The man could then only mumble that she should go home, & twice the salary offered would reach her on the first of every month. But the lady still refused & said that her children's father had only brought in halal rizq, & she is not going to give her children anything other than that earned through halal work. She got the job, & eventually she got a job as a teacher in a school. although her husband's biradri badgered her so she had to quit when her children could start earning a living. I see so many women begging, so may come to me for help that now i dread going out even for saying my prayers. & when i was abroad i thought perhaps i should never return so that i do not have to see the misery that widows & children without means have to go through. my wife is a doctor. i asked her to take on a job because i thought if something happens to me, she should be able to look after herself & the children. If women give up a career for marriage, & have to start again late in life, they don't earn much, & their earnings may be insufficient for their needs. Then there is the question of what a woman wants. If she wants a career instead of a marriage, who are we to stop her? Is there an injunction against working single women? & this last is important. I really need an answer to this one, because i am discussing it with some women & i do not know what to say. Is marriage compulsory, or can a man or woman forego this in the pursuit of some career or calling or even Jihad? I need input from brothers Arshad, BroHanif, BrKhalid, Nomi etc. & of course all the sisters who want to respond, particularly with reference to the Quran & Hadith.
10/01/03 at 05:19:17
timbuktu

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
jannah
09/30/03 at 14:13:13
[slm] The first fatwa is about the specific situation of choosing a job that may take you into haram so it's not applicable to the general question of women working. The second fatwa is about the specific situation of  a woman going to a mixed school so it's not applicable. The third is talking about a situation within the marital relationship which has it's own rights and balances. But note how it is still permissable within that and the decision rests with the couple to make before they marry or after. And OF COURSE there are conditions to working for women just like there are for MEN. [code] However, there is no decree in Islam that forbids women from seeking employment whenever there is a necessity for it, especially in positions which fit her nature best and in which society needs her most. Examples of these professions are nursing, teaching (especially children), medicine, and social and charitable work. Moreover there is no restriction on benefiting from women's talents in any field. Some early jurists, such as Abu-Hanifah and Al-Tabari, uphold that a qualified Muslim woman may be appointed to the position of a judge. Other jurists hold different opinions. Yet, no jurist is able to point to an  explicit text in the Qur'an or Sunnah that categorically excludes women from any lawful type of employment except for the headship of the state, which is discussed in the following chapter. Omar, the second Caliph after the Prophet (P), appointed a woman (Um Al-Shifaa' bint Abdullah) as the marketplace supervisor, a position that is equivalent in our world to "director of the consumer protection department." In countries where Muslims are a numerical minority, some Muslim women, while recognizing the importance of their role as mothers, may be forced to seek employment in order to survive. This is especially true in the case of divorcees and widows and in the absence of the Islamic financial security measures outlined above. [/code]

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
Nomi
10/02/03 at 16:04:43
[i]<modified a lil>[/i] [slm] Don't worry i'm not gonna paste another fatwa but just wanted to tell you guys that sis jannah's one-lined explanation of those three already posted fatwas is questionable plz go through them for yourself inshaAllah. Bro timbaktu, i've searched through [url]www.albalagh.net[/url] a website of darul-aloom Karachi. This site has got fatwas from "Mufti Taqi Usmani" and Mufti "Desai", two very renowned names. Their words just made me reiterate what i already posted i.e. For the rest of you: I'm sorry if any of my words hurt you.... really... wassalam PS: This is my last post in this thread :) [quote author=Nomi link=board=ummah;num=1064565021;start=15#21 date=09/28/03 at 13:17:17] Dear sis it seems that you dint really go through all the posts and if you did then you shouldn't have said so!! Here is what i explained that is allowed according to my understanding. 1] Females teachers (4 Ladies and kids) 2] Female doctors (4 Ladies and kids) 3] Community services that sis UmmWafi mentioned and apart from that when a lady has no one to provide for her even then a secluded environment should be preffered but if thats difficult then its her jihad all along to work with men. wassalam. [/quote]
10/03/03 at 03:09:30
Nomi

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
bhaloo
10/02/03 at 21:48:49
[slm] [quote author=Nomi link=board=ummah;num=1064565021;start=30#38 date=10/02/03 at 16:04:43][slm] Don't worry i'm not gonna paste another fatwa but just wanted to tell you guys that sis jannah's one-lined explanation of those three already posted fatwas is questionable plz go through them for yourself inshaAllah. [/quote] Seriously, I have no idea what Jannah's one line responses responded to, because she didn't respond to the fatawas which I put up.   Alhumdullilah the sheikh cited examples in the work place and the problems that can happen.

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
muahmed
10/02/03 at 22:58:11
[slm] mazhabbi bai-hass ham nay kabhi ki hi nahin falto aqal hum mein thi hi nahin -- Akbar ala Abadi (Shaykh and Urdu poet) And for the wise sufficeth an inneundo.
10/03/03 at 00:33:04
muahmed

Re: Pakistan + Women + Career !
jannah
10/03/03 at 02:45:00
[wlm] Hmmm I wasn't "responding" to the fatwas as you put it. That would require being a shaikh and writing my own fatwa for the question.  I was merely pointing out that those fatwas are specific answers to specific situations and so therefore can't be used as evidence to make something prohibited or disliked Islamically in a general sense.... in this case the discussion on women working.
10/03/03 at 02:46:03
jannah
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