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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| killing nonmuslims not forbidden? |
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| Anonymous |
| 09/30/03 at 22:45:38 |
| Hello! I was very intersted in Islam and its teachings, but unfortunately I found in another forum a debate about killing nonmuslims(regardless gender and age). The guys there came to the conclusion that it is not forbidden and a muslim can not be accused of his murder at a western court. I must admit that this forum made me very doubtfull about the peacefullness of Islam. Is this really teached by the islamic scholars? Or are there two religions called Islam? Sincerly your guest |
| Re: killing nonmuslims not forbidden? |
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| WhiteSomali |
| 09/30/03 at 22:57:07 |
| Whas happenin Anon. ;D [QUOTE] Is this really teached by the islamic scholars?[/quote] No, and as far as I know there isn't even one qualified scholar in the world who holds this viewpoint. So don't worry about comments made by ignorant people, whether they're Muslim or non-Muslim ;D In fact it's very, very clear that we can't just go around killing non-Muslims. Allah says in the Quran, and sorry but I can't reference it (bad memory ;D), perhaps one of the brathaz or sisterz will, that if we kill a human being, it's as if we killed the entire human race. Seriously, can't get much clearer than that. Actually we're not supposed to go around killing animals without a good reason either. Internet forums tend to be a bad place to learn about Islam. If you want, send me an email at ahmadx23@hotmail.com and I can give you a few good quality, informative websites and books. Peace out ;D |
| Re: killing nonmuslims not forbidden? |
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| bhaloo |
| 10/01/03 at 01:58:47 |
| [slm] [quote author=WhiteSomali link=board=madrasa;num=1064972740;start=0#1 date=09/30/03 at 22:57:07]No, and as far as I know there isn't even one qualified scholar in the world who holds this viewpoint. [/quote] Hmmmm, let's be VERY careful what we are saying. If nonmuslims have waged war on Muslims then of course it is permissible to kill them. They are combatants. From Islam-online.net: The question is to any human being: How far would “you” be prepared to defend what you believe in? The last few centuries witnessed many wars; the American war of Independence, the Crimean War, the Boer War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Cold War, Bosnia, Iran/Iraq, Gulf War etc. Were they fought by people who didn’t believe in a cause - at all? In a “war”, wouldn’t one expect to be killed? How would you justify Madeline Albright’s comment that 500,000 dead Iraqi children is an acceptable level of “collateral damage”!? Now, let me try to shed light on the Islamic perspective. We read in Surah 2, verses 190 – 193 of the Qur’an: *{Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight you, but do not go beyond the limits. Allah does not love those who practice aggression. The aggressors against you should be killed wherever you come across them and expel them from where they expelled you. Fitna (persecution and oppression) is worse than killing. Do not fight them in the Masjid al-Haram until they fight you there. But if they do fight you, then kill them. That is how the disbelievers should be repaid. But if they cease, Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Fight them until there is no more fitna and the deen (religion) belongs to Allah alone. If they cease, there should be no enmity towards any but wrongdoers.}* This was the first verse concerning fighting, which was revealed in Madinah. Ever since it was revealed, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) used to fight only those who fought him, and he avoided non-combatants. It was pure self-defense after enduring oppression for years. This passage should be compared with Surah 9, verse 36: *{… and fight against the Mushrikun (polytheists) collectively as they fight against you collectively}* This is why Allah (swt) said: *{And kill them wherever you come across them, and expel them from where they expelled you.}* Meaning: Your energy should be spent on fighting them, just as their energy is spent on fighting you, and on expelling them from the areas from which they have expelled you, as a law of equality in punishment or justice. So, it is a fight to regain your right, not violate the others’ rights. Allah said: *{… but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.}* This means: Fight for the sake of Allah and do not be transgressors such as, by committing prohibitions. These prohibitions include: Mutilating the dead Theft [from captured goods] Killing women, children and elderly people who do not participate in warfare Killing priests and residents of houses of worship near the battlefields Burning [or chopping] down trees Killing animals for no real benefit Buraydah narrated that Muhammad (pbuh) said: “Fight for the sake of Allah and fight those who disbelieve in Allah. Fight, but do not steal [from the captured goods], and do not commit treachery, nor mutilate [the dead], or kill a child, or those who reside in [Jewish and Christian] houses of worship.” (Narrated in the compiled hadiths of the prophet by Imam Muslim.) Allah encouraged His believing servants to guard justice, support the oppressed, defend themselves and to perform jihad in His cause. Muslims were guided to strive hard to save the oppressed believers Muslims in Makkah: men, women and children who were restless, because of having to remain there after the prophet and some companions emigrated to Yathreb (Madinah). This is why Allah said in Surah 4, verse 74: *{What is preventing you from fighting in the way of Allah for those men, women and children who are oppressed and say, Our Lord, take us out of this town whose inhabitants are wrong doers! Send us a protector! Send us a helper from your side!}* To conclude, Islam is a religion of justice… and perhaps this is how the current conflict in the world should be considered, on the basis of justice. It is this writer’s firm belief that if the injustice in an area is addressed, the problem will be resolved. Long lasting peace and reconciliation can only be achieved through just settlement of conflicts… from their roots! War will not solve any problem by itself. It is sometimes necessary only to set the terms for any subsequent discussions. Allah knows best. |
| Re: killing nonmuslims not forbidden? |
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| Sophia |
| 10/01/03 at 02:46:29 |
| [slm] It was me who wrote the anonymous posting. I thought it is better to register because I don't want to appear as a troll. In the forum I read there was a discussion obviously about killing nonmuslim civilists in a fictive terroract against a supermarket. It was totally in contradiction to everything I have read before. Remains the question why muslims do that? Is it pure ignorance or do they want to appear as fierce and hostile? I'm asking this not to offend someone, but to know what is going on. [wlm] Sophia PS: for those who speak German the forum is hosted under www.muslim-forum.de |
| Re: killing nonmuslims not forbidden? |
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| bhaloo |
| 10/01/03 at 09:48:45 |
| [slm] Ok, the question you've stated is now different, because you are talking about "civillians". When you say in a supermarket, are you referring to the situation in Israel? Because there are some interesting discussions from scholars on that particular situation. Check out islamonline.net. I'll post some later in regards to this, if this is what you are talking about. [quote author=Sophia link=board=madrasa;num=1064972740;start=0#3 date=10/01/03 at 02:46:29] [slm] It was me who wrote the anonymous posting. I thought it is better to register because I don't want to appear as a troll. In the forum I read there was a discussion obviously about killing nonmuslim civilists in a fictive terroract against a supermarket. It was totally in contradiction to everything I have read before. Remains the question why muslims do that? Is it pure ignorance or do they want to appear as fierce and hostile? I'm asking this not to offend someone, but to know what is going on. [wlm] Sophia PS: for those who speak German the forum is hosted under www.muslim-forum.de [/quote] |
| 10/01/03 at 09:50:01 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: killing nonmuslims not forbidden? |
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| sofia |
| 10/01/03 at 11:14:53 |
| In simple terms, no, it's not permissible to kill non-muslims (or anyone) when there is a "treaty" of peace between Muslims and non-Muslims in a particular land. In more complex terms, there are rules of warfare that exist in Islaam, just as there are rules for warfare that exist in the country you live in. Every nation has the right to protect itself from intrusion and plunder. In fact, the rules of warfare are more strict in Islaamic ideology than in any other I've ever come across. As mentioned above, even when attacked, Muslims cannot kill animals, women/children, not even fruit-bearing vegetation on the enemy side. So things like Agent Orange, landmines and cluster bombs are most likely prohibited in Islaam on face value, since they violate these basic principals. But I'm no scholar. I haven't gone into details, but I will ask this (rhetorically): which nations produce weapons of mass destruction and sell them to others? Which nations have the most active military and have actually used WMD on human beings? Which nations will go down in history as having caused the most damage to other nations? I could go on, but you get my point, I hope. So, to say that Muslims have no right to defend themselves against those who fight them, or to say that Muslims can kill any non-muslim they please, would be equally extreme and false. Islaam promotes moderation and balance; it's not about killing one another. In fact, even hurting someone verbally is prohibited. Hope that makes sense. Nice name, by the way. :) Peace, sofia |
| Re: killing nonmuslims not forbidden? |
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| WhiteSomali |
| 10/01/03 at 18:58:57 |
| [slm] [quote] Hmmmm, let's be VERY careful what we are saying. [/quote] I was referring to killing without good reason. Not in times of war and not when Muslims are being oppressed. Of course Muslims are allowed to kill non-Muslims if we need to do it to defend our rights or the rights of others. I was under the impression that Anon's post meant we could kill non-Muslims any time, any place, just because they're non-Muslims and that's why I answered how I did. :) [slm] |
| Re: killing nonmuslims not forbidden? |
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| Sophia |
| 10/02/03 at 04:26:33 |
| [quote author=WhiteSomali link=board=madrasa;num=1064972740;start=0#6 date=10/01/03 at 18:58:57] [slm] I was referring to killing without good reason. Not in times of war and not when Muslims are being oppressed. Of course Muslims are allowed to kill non-Muslims if we need to do it to defend our rights or the rights of others. I was under the impression that Anon's post meant we could kill non-Muslims any time, any place, just because they're non-Muslims and that's why I answered how I did. :) [slm][/quote] [slm], brother! What do you exactly understand by "oppression"? Please, don't get me wrong, I just want to avoid a big missunderstanding by defining this term. [wlm] Sophia |
| Re: killing nonmuslims not forbidden? |
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| jannah |
| 10/02/03 at 13:38:15 |
| [wlm] I don't want this topic to degenerate into a fight over suicide bombings/jihad etc which is a banned topic on this board. Please seek the advice of a legitimate scholar in your area for the answers to your questions inshaAllah. |
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