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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Samah |
| 10/02/03 at 12:31:14 |
| [slm] sisters, I've got to share something with you all. I've been married now for almost a year. This has been a [i]very[/i] rough year and we have nearly divorced two times already. My husband and I have a very difficult time communicating. He'll say something and I misinterpret it and vice versa. When we have conversations, be they about current events or Islam our perspectives are [i]entirely[/i] different- to the point where I become really frustrated. I feel like he doesn't understand me at all. We have gone to marital counseling but as we all know, no one in our community likes divorce so they will encourage you to stay together at all costs. (Esp. if the problems are not extreme like you're getting abused or he's not practicing). In addition to not being able to communicate we have some very stark cultural differences. I try to discuss them with my husband but he refuses to acknowledge that we have such a difference. Because he, along with my wali, believe that "Islam is our culture so there is no such thing as cultural differences" Huh? ??? Lastly, my husband is extremely prideful. He can never admit to being wrong. Never. If I try to tell him something he is doing wrong (in a nice way of course) he becomes upset. He has so much pride that he won't admit to feeling annoyed with me because that would be showing weakness. His bottom line is that he never wants to lose face in front of me- ever. But isn't marriage about sharing all sides of yourself? However, with all of that, he loves to point out what he see as being wrong with me (often speaking in a paternalistic fashion). I'm at my wits end sisters...tell me something. As it stands I feel like we should divorce. |
| 10/02/03 at 12:32:40 |
| Samah |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Caraj |
| 10/02/03 at 12:56:00 |
| Hello, ok, I'll try a responce to this but forgive me in advance as I may say a few things you may not like to hear. But I say them from the heart. ;) [quote author=Samah link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=0#0 date=10/02/03 at 12:31:14] [slm] sisters, I've got to share something with you all. I've been married now for almost a year. This has been a [i]very[/i] rough year and we have nearly divorced two times already. My husband and I have a very difficult time communicating. He'll say something and I misinterpret it and vice versa. When we have conversations, be they about current events or Islam our perspectives are [i]entirely[/i] different- to the point where I become really frustrated. I feel like he doesn't understand me at all. We have gone to marital counseling but as we all know, no one in our community likes divorce so they will encourage you to stay together at all costs. (Esp. if the problems are not extreme like you're getting abused or he's not practicing). In addition to not being able to communicate we have some very stark cultural differences. I try to discuss them with my husband but he refuses to acknowledge that we have such a difference. Because he, along with my wali, believe that "Islam is our culture so there is no such thing as cultural differences" Huh? ???[/quote] First of all Dear Sister the first year is always the hardest and you are almost past that. If there is no abuse as you mentioned then you are just going through that first year adjustment period. It is the one where us woman call crying to our mothers "I wanna come home, I can't take anymore of this" :'( :D I kid you not. I hate calling something or being called NORMAL, but what you are going through sounds real normal to me. [quote author=Samah link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=0#0 date=10/02/03 at 12:31:14] [slm] sisters, Lastly, my husband is extremely prideful. He can never admit to being wrong. Never. If I try to tell him something he is doing wrong (in a nice way of course) he becomes upset. He has so much pride that he won't admit to feeling annoyed with me because that would be showing weakness. His bottom line is that he never wants to lose face in front of me- ever. But isn't marriage about sharing all sides of yourself? However, with all of that, he loves to point out what he see as being wrong with me (often speaking in a paternalistic fashion). [/quote] Oh no, no, no Dear Sister tell me you aren't doing this :o ??? As women, it is in our nature to always try to 'fix' things,try to correct things and motherly smother things, this is your husband not your child, you can't tell a man he's wrong, that will most always spark anger and hurt. You don't need to correct him and especially not in the first year (wait a few more years and learn the secret womans tatical manuvers ;) ) But it is not your job to correct (as you put it) your husband. He is not your little boy. [quote author=Samah link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=0#0 date=10/02/03 at 12:31:14] [slm] sisters, I'm at my wits end sisters...tell me something. As it stands I feel like we should divorce. [/quote] I know you're at your witts end and the first year and sometimes eve part of the second year is always the hardest adjustment. Please, if this man is not abusive and you already said he is not, give it more time and also learn.....he is not a child to be corrected, no matter how gently you do it or you think you do it. He is a man and your husband to be loved, respected and cared for. Ok, so you say he talks to you in a parternalistic fashion, sounds like you may be a little in a motherly fashion yourself. Treat him with the utmost respect and admiration, don't argue with him and look in the older messages here in the sister's that Kathy posted titled 20,000 and dollies (honest, read it, it is soooooo cute and makes sense) and do all this for 6 months and see if he doesn't mellow out himself. Hope I have not hurt your feelings but I do care and I speak from the heart. ( Oh God, please help me to heed my own advice ::) ;) ;D as after being alone 8 1/2 months and having hubby back again :D I am about ready to have a break myself :P ) Oh no did I say that out loud [] hehe Smile Sister, it is the first years adjustments :P I can always send you a DARN IT doll ;D It is a sewn little doll like figure of fabric and stuffing and when fustrated you take it to the counter and bang it against the counter as hard as you can yelling DARN IT DARN IT DARN IT :o 8) Woman often attach a picture of their husbands face to it :-/ Ok I am being silly but I hope that made you laugh and smile. Tis ok, you are almost past the hard first year. |
| 10/02/03 at 13:04:36 |
| Caraj |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Fozia |
| 10/02/03 at 13:12:33 |
| [slm] The first year of marriage is supposed to be the most difficult, actually the first [i]five[/i] are supposed to be the most difficult. This is what I do; 1) If I know something is right I [i]NEVER[/i] ever come out and say it otherwise it would be nagging ::), therefore I always find ways to make him think it's his own brilliant idea in the first place... I don't particularly care so long as my point is acheived it's fine by me. Pride is a male thing, women tend to have less of it, or it disappears straight after giving birth :-/ :-/ 2) I'm not sure about the cultural differences thing, give me an example. 3) If he speaks to you in a manner you don't like, bite your tongue and don't say anything immediately, wait till you've cooled down and tell him it hurts you when he addresses you as if you're a child. 4) Tell him you love him, you don't have to be gushy about it, just say it when he comes in from work or goes out to work or both. It will help you and him. 5) As you both get more comfortable with eachother you'll find he cares less about 'losing face'. If my husband knows something I don't and teaches me I don't feel as if I lose face and vice-a-versa, he tends to listen to me (even to my insane hairbrained middle of the night schemes), and either acts on my reccomendation or gently explains to me why really that kind of idea would under normal circumstances get me committed :-/. If your husband doesn't want to lose face in front of you, tell him once and leave it at that don't let a small issue become huge. Inshallah as your marriage progresses you'll find you both grow together and your thoughts and ideas will become similar. Look at it from this point of view. You both grew up however many years in completely different environments and it's difficult for two different people to think and behave alike, you fall out with friends right so why expect so much from your husband. I've been married a little over six years and couldn't imagine life without my husband...(OK fine so I've lost my credit card again)... Good luck and don't be so hasty with your thoughts on seperation, if he's kind and loving towards you and you love him back that's a good beginning. Wasalaam |
| 10/02/03 at 13:15:12 |
| Fozia |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Caraj |
| 10/02/03 at 13:24:04 |
| Here is that cute post by Kathy. I don't know how to do the click HERE thingy so if a mod wants to modify this post feel free and do the click HERE thingy ;) ************************************************** Two Doilies and $25,000 There was once a man and woman who had been married for more than 60 years. They had shared everything. They had talked about everything. They had kept no secrets from each other except that the little old woman had a shoe box in the top of her closet that she had cautioned her husband never to open or ask her about. For all of these years, he had never thought about the box, but one day the little old woman got very sick and the doctor said she would not recover. In trying to sort out their affairs, the little old man took down the shoebox and took it to his wife's bedside. She agreed that it was time that he should know what was in the box. When he opened it, he found two crocheted doilies and a stack of money totaling $25,000. He asked her about the contents. "When we were to be married," she said, "my grandmother told me the secret of a happy marriage was to never argue. "She told me that if I ever got angry with you, I should just keep quiet and crochet a doily." The little old man was so moved, he had to fight back tears. Only two precious doilies were in the box. She had only been angry with him two times in all those years of living and loving. He almost burst with happiness. "Honey," he said, "that explains the doilies, but what about all of this money? Where did it come from?" "Oh," she said, "that's the money I made from selling the doilies." |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Samah |
| 10/02/03 at 13:40:11 |
| [quote author=azizah link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=0#1 date=10/02/03 at 12:56:00]Oh no, no, no Dear Sister tell me you aren't doing this :o ???As women, it is in our nature to always try to 'fix' things,try to correct things and motherly smother things, this is your husband not your child, you can't tell a man he's wrong, that will most always spark anger and hurt. You don't need to correct him and especially not in the first year (wait a few more years and learn the secret womans tatical manuvers ;) ) But it is not your job to correct (as you put it) your husband. He is not your little boy.[/quote] Sorry I didn't clarify, I mean about Islamic matters. My standpoint is this: I converted to Islam 11 years ago. When I first started practicing I was around Muslims who taught me culture mixed with Islam. As a result my view of Islam and Islamic practices was off. I promised myself not to let others influence me to implement wrong Islamic practices into my deen again. So, the things that I politely correct him on (and I do them in a roundabout way as well) are in his best interest also. However, even if he's wrong he'll stick by the wrong due to his pride. Where does that leave me? I'm afraid for us to have children because of these conflicts. Maybe if he recognized them or even humbled himself a little it would make things better but it seems that is not happening either. [quote author=azizah link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=0#1 date=10/02/03 at 12:56:00] Ok, so you say he talks to you in a parternalistic fashion, sounds like you may be a little in a motherly fashion yourself.[/quote] I really don't. I know how he is with his pride so I've created various ways to approach him and so far they all seem to anger him. Do you know what it feels like to not even be able to suggest something to my husband? Even if my suggestion is a better one... When my husband and I first met and were talking he explained to me that he wanted the type of woman who is assertive and independent. That's who I am. But now it seems all of that has changed and he wants me never to challenge him or offer my opinions. He wants to make all the decisions with little input or suggestions on my part. I cannot live like that. However, at the same time, he can tell me where my wrongs are even if it comes down to insulting me. |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Fozia |
| 10/02/03 at 13:50:27 |
| [slm] A very quick question, do you have these discussion's in public or private, it can make the world of difference.... Wasalaam PS does he know how desperate you feel?? |
| 10/02/03 at 13:52:10 |
| Fozia |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Samah |
| 10/02/03 at 13:56:14 |
| [quote author=Fozia link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=0#2 date=10/02/03 at 13:12:33] [slm] The first year of marriage is supposed to be the most difficult, actually the first [i]five[/i] are supposed to be the most difficult. This is what I do; 1) If I know something is right I [i]NEVER[/i] ever come out and say it otherwise it would be nagging ::), therefore I always find ways to make him think it's his own brilliant idea in the first place... I don't particularly care so long as my point is acheived it's fine by me. Pride is a male thing, women tend to have less of it, or it disappears straight after giving birth :-/ :-/ [/quote] Well, I'm speaking about Islamic practices and deen. We should be able to talk about that straight out shouldn't we? [quote author=Fozia link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=0#2 date=10/02/03 at 13:12:33] [slm] 2) I'm not sure about the cultural differences thing, give me an example.[/quote] I have a very good friend whom my husband loves and respects. We have a halaqah circle on Fridays. One Friday I called and asked him to stay over night at her house. I could tell he was irritated even though he didn't say so. He told me, "it's a personal call". I asked him what that meant and I was really confused. He never answered me so I didn't stay. A week later after I DRAG it out of him he admits he believes it's inapproriate for a married woman to sleep anywhere but in her house and how he's never heard of such a thing before and how in his culture women never do that. I explained to him that my friends and I do those things on occassion (sometimes even doing a talim all night) and there is nothing wrong with it as far as I knew. [quote author=Fozia link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=0#2 date=10/02/03 at 13:12:33] [slm] 3) If he speaks to you in a manner you don't like, bite your tongue and don't say anything immediately, wait till you've cooled down and tell him it hurts you when he addresses you as if you're a child. [/quote] Acutally, when he does that I don't say anything at the time. I'm the type of person who prefers to discuss things when I'm less emotional or upset. I told him how i felt already and he told me "that's just your perception". [quote author=Fozia link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=0#2 date=10/02/03 at 13:12:33] [slm] 5) As you both get more comfortable with eachother you'll find he cares less about 'losing face'. If my husband knows something I don't and teaches me I don't feel as if I lose face and vice-a-versa, he tends to listen to me (even to my insane hairbrained middle of the night schemes), and either acts on my reccomendation or gently explains to me why really that kind of idea would under normal circumstances get me committed :-/. If your husband doesn't want to lose face in front of you, tell him once and leave it at that don't let a small issue become huge. Inshallah as your marriage progresses you'll find you both grow together and your thoughts and ideas will become similar. [/quote] I'm sorry to say that he's that way with everything. One time i asked him a question about something Islamic. He didn't know the answer and he felt really embarrassed. I could tell he was about to make up an answer but he finally caught himself. A week or so later he comes back and asked me if I found the answer to the question and i told him no. He gave me the answer and I asked him how he found out. Do you know he tried to act as if he knew it all along but had forgotten? :o This is only an example of never losing face. There are so many others... [quote author=Fozia link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=0#2 date=10/02/03 at 13:12:33] [slm] Good luck and don't be so hasty with your thoughts on seperation, if he's kind and loving towards you and you love him back that's a good beginning. [/quote] I don't see much of the loving and kindness these days to tell you the truth. |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Caraj |
| 10/02/03 at 14:36:44 |
| Maybe I am reading your words the wrong way but again you use the word.....correct. And pleaseeeeee I don't mean to be harsh or rude but there is that motherly type thinking.....'It's really in his best interest.' Honestly the first year especially and sometimes into the second year is really a hard time, an adjustment time. Also men's pride is easily hurt at times and no matter how gently you think you're coming across or if you think it is really for his own good. Maybe you can also learn more through this experience. Instead of (as you put it 'correct' him) you can say something like, "Dear, I was reading this in the Quran (or I read this hadith) and I was struggling trying to properly understand it. I think this but wonder if I am over looking something. What do you get out of this when you read this?" If he doesn't know the answer, give him a gentle kiss on the cheek, tell him something like, "Honey I would really like your opinion can you read this later when you have time and get back to me on it. This puts him in a postion of being the head of the home, makes him feel you value his opinion. Now by doing this you accomplish two things. One you see his view which may in some (not all) cases change yours. You seem to know much and that is good but we don't know it all right? Also in talking things out in a loving way and he feels you want his opinion and insight on it, he feels valuable in his wifes eyes and in discussing things and asking what he thinks he may change his opinion also at times. I would stop trying to 'correct' him and show your love, appreciation and admiration. Ask his opinion, don't try to 'correct' him. Men know we are trying to correct them no matter how we do it. Try this for 6 months with a sincere heart. I bet if you do, you'll both change in a good way. Give it more time. A couple rough years are worth decades of love and happiness. If you can try really hard to be loving, encouraging, make him feel his thoughts are important this will make him feel like he is valued. I would be he mellows out after a while. But it will take time not just a week or a month. Are you sure you don't want a 'darn it' doll ;) Best wishes, I don't want to hog up this topic so I am done with my opinions on this matter. I wish you well and hope you will give your marriage more time. Be his friend, lover, confidant, wife and such, not his mother ok? I know it is hard, we are such motherly creatures by nature. It can work in our favor and it can also work against us. I don't mean to sound rude but in reading your post you don't come across as loving and encouraging and maybe I am wrong ( could very well be) but your words sound on the lines of..... I know I'm right and I can prove it and you are so worry about him saving face but how about YOU trying to save his face (sort to speak) after all he is your husband. As to the over night, asking him right then and there puts him on the spot. Plus does he know this person? Maybe this womans husband? Would you want him staying at someones home you did not know? Think of it this way, if you had talked to him a week prior, offered to have him meet a family member of this friends or gotten the Iman's input as to this person's character, told him , oh and honey by the way I'mm make sure you're dinner is made so all you have to do is microwave it. Work up to it. When you say you finally got it out of him a week later, sounds like you nagged the guy to tell you something. Just a little bit. I am not there, this is only my opinion, I wish you well. Change your own heart before you try to change your husbands heart. |
| 10/02/03 at 14:54:35 |
| Caraj |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Samah |
| 10/02/03 at 14:49:53 |
| [quote author=Fozia link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=0#5 date=10/02/03 at 13:50:27] [slm] A very quick question, do you have these discussion's in public or private, it can make the world of difference.... Wasalaam PS does he know how desperate you feel??[/quote] No, all of the times it has been in private. FOR THE SISTERS WHO ANSWERED: I've tried to talking to him and in various ways. I know you sisters are giving me advice and I appreciate that 100%. but doesn't he have to consider my feelings too? Why do we (as women) always have to ignore our feelings and hope the man will come around? You guys are telling me to present things to him in a way that he feels in charge but no one seems concerned that my husband doesn't welcome my input in any way. Is that fair? The reason we have these conflicts is because I'm the one going to classes all the time trying to learn about Islam and he has told me several times already "I studied thosee things before" or "I knew that back in my country". What if those things were incorrect? I'm not required to follow something it's not correct according to the Quran and the Sunnat of the Prophet Muhammad [saw]. So this issue goes above me "correcting" or lecturing him. It even boils down to salaat and the way we do basic Islamic practices. Should I just sit there and say nothing? All of this stems from his pride. As a man he should know everything, or so he thinks. I can never be right. But where is the humility that Islam teaches us. Excuse me if I sound harsh but I am really frustrated sisters. I feel like no one understands me. We go to see my wali and I feel double teamed. Why is okay for him to throw around his power, speak to me as if I'm a child and tell me to do things because "his culture says so" but when I say one thing I'm wrong? :( |
| 10/02/03 at 15:18:48 |
| Samah |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Samah |
| 10/02/03 at 14:59:24 |
| And as I read over my posts I realize that we are getting side tracked from the issue. The main problem we have is our inability to communicate with and understand each other. I am not giving up easy. We have been through A LOT (and it's too long to type). However, this issue seems to come up. I kid you not sisters, Allah is my witness, when my husband and I have conversations (even [i]basic[/i] ones) we frequently do not understand one another. Can imagine starting a basic conversation with your husband and it ending in an arguement? That's how it has been with us since we got married. :( |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Caraj |
| 10/02/03 at 15:00:57 |
| Ok this has got to be my last message I have work to do. read below :-[ IN HIS BEST INTEREST DRAG IT OUT OF HIM Called his Fri to ask if I could stay (last minute plans, putting one on the spot) Use of the word "CORRECT" him I AM the one taking the classes Do you not see how you sound? Seriously? |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Samah |
| 10/02/03 at 15:12:06 |
| [quote author=azizah link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=0#10 date=10/02/03 at 15:00:57]Ok this has got to be my last message I have work to do. read below :-[ IN HIS BEST INTEREST [color=Purple] As it's in my best interest to know what Islam teaches[/color] DRAG IT OUT OF HIM [color=Purple] I had to "drag it out of him" despite me genuinely being confused about his reply because he wouldn't admit to me how he felt. [/color] Called his Fri to ask if I could stay (last minute plans, putting one on the spot) [color=Purple] Even still I'm being blamed for wanting a direct answer from him?[/color] Use of the word "CORRECT" him [color=Purple] I really didn't mean it in the way you're taking it[/color] I AM the one taking the classes [color=Purple] I said that to illustrate the differences we have in perspective. I'm taking classes and learning about things he feels content to rely on what he learned "back home"[/color] Do you not see how you sound? Seriously? [color=Purple] Even with how I sound- which I think you are taking the wrong way- it doesn't excuse the fact that we have problems[/color] [/quote] |
| 10/02/03 at 15:16:37 |
| Samah |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Fozia |
| 10/02/03 at 16:25:45 |
| [slm] Why do you have to ignore your feelings?? You don't necessarily just try not to let your marriage turn into a battle field and that may temporarily necessitate you altering your behaviour as you have said he won't. It boils down to this, do you want your marriage to work?? If so I would strongly advise you give Sr. Azizah's advice a go. You want to ride a horse, first you've got to gain it's confidence by talking nicely to it and offering it suger cubes, horsey isn't going to come up to you and ask to be saddled now is it?? Your being patient doesn't make you any less of a person. Right now it sounds like both of you want to claim the high ground in the relationship, so husband is going all macho and pig headed and you're getting stubborn. Result both of you are refusing to listen to eachother, one of you has to take the initiative so why not you?? It also sounds like he's feeling threatened by your increasing knowledge of Islam. Why not ask husband along to these classes, tell him you'd like if he came with you just the once, as you value his opinion and want to be able to share this with him, as Islam is what bought you to him and you want it to continue bringing the two of you together. Seriously Sr. if you want the marriage to work than you'll take the first step mainly because he's a man and if he's anything like the ones I know he'll sooner cut his tongue out than be the first to apologise. Want to know something (probably not but anyways). My husband forgot, our anniversary, didn't get me an Eid gift and didn't even buy me a gift on the way to hospital when I 'd had my daughter (she's seven months now Alhumdulillah), even though before I had her I'd asked he buy me flowers or pick me a daisy anything.... I on the other hand bought him an Eid gift, wedding anniversary gift and birthday present (he forgot mine but I don't really mind about that). He never said I love you first either it's always me I'm the one who says it first.... Obviously the above hurts. Well a while back we were talking about something, and I said I know you don't love me but that doesn't matter really, at least we both love Fatima Zohra (our daughter), he looked completely stunned at this and said I do I do, I said no you don't and here's why and I listed the above and added oh well never mind ( I didn't say but I remembered and bought you gifts though). A week later I got home from work to find presents all over the house, one with a card wishing me happy eid, happy anniversary, happy birthday etc, so I did exactly what you would expect ... yep I burst into tears... He's also taken to telling me he loves me first.... What does this have to do with anything?? Probably nothing absoloutely nothing, plus I think Sr. Jannah is going to tell me off for going over my weekly limit, how many times have I posted this week?? Wasalaam |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Samah |
| 10/02/03 at 17:02:58 |
| [quote author=Fozia link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=0#12 date=10/02/03 at 16:25:45] [slm] Your being patient doesn't make you any less of a person. Right now it sounds like both of you want to claim the high ground in the relationship, so husband is going all macho and pig headed and you're getting stubborn. Result both of you are refusing to listen to eachother, one of you has to take the initiative so why not you??[/quote] Allah knows, this isn't about me wanting to have the power. I just want my input to be valued, my judgement to respected, and for him to communicate what he's thinking to me. frequently, when I ask for clarification he says "because I said so". As if he's speaking to his child. That infurates me. I explained to him when we first started talking, I'm a very independent person, I've lived on my own for years taking care of myself and my family. I don't want to feel like you want me to be any less than who I am. I believe in compromise yes but not to the point where I have to turn myself into someone else. I listen to what he says. In all of this, when he's told I couldn't do something I don't do it. However, that doesn't mean I don't have feelings about it. So many times I've held my tongue or smoothed over personal insults he's made because I wanted to keep the peace. I've even stopped telling him if he's doing something wrong Islamically or sharing with him what I've learned in the class. I just practice on my own even though one of my main reasons for wanting to be married was to practice Islam with my husband... ??? [quote author=Fozia link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=0#12 date=10/02/03 at 16:25:45] [slm] It also sounds like he's feeling threatened by your increasing knowledge of Islam. Why not ask husband along to these classes, tell him you'd like if he came with you just the once, as you value his opinion and want to be able to share this with him, as Islam is what bought you to him and you want it to continue bringing the two of you together.[/quote] I agree with you. I've asked him to come with me countless times and he's gone a couple times but then he stopped coming. On several occasions he has asked me to ask the sheikh regarding certain matters we disagree on. Subhanallah, everytime I ask and come back with an answer it seems my husband's belief was incorrect. As a result I think he feels embarrassed to come to the class. The pride again... [quote author=Fozia link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=0#12 date=10/02/03 at 16:25:45] [slm] Well a while back we were talking about something, and I said I know you don't love me but that doesn't matter really, at least we both love Fatima Zohra (our daughter), he looked completely stunned at this and said I do I do, I said no you don't and here's why and I listed the above and added oh well never mind ( I didn't say but I remembered and bought you gifts though). A week later I got home from work to find presents all over the house, one with a card wishing me happy eid, happy anniversary, happy birthday etc, so I did exactly what you would expect ... yep I burst into tears... He's also taken to telling me he loves me first....[/quote] Mashallah what a beautiful story! Very touching. You don't know how much I make du'a asking that my husband learn to be more humble. I believe if that can happen he can be more open to realize that he doesn't have to be right or perfect all the time. I reiterate the fact that he will NEVER admit to being wrong even when it's clear that he is. When I admit my wrong doing he chooses to focus on me only and how I can improve. Recently, he told me the only reason we're having problems is because of me. I know that's not true. Even my Islamic studies teacher, the sheikh, who has talked to him several times (and extensively) told me that my husband is very prideful. Since they are from the same culture he recognized that my husband still holds onto many of the 'old values' of their culture despite his seemingly modern, chic living. He told me he felt I'd have to become more traditional if I wanted this marriage to work out because my husband is unbending in that area... :( Where does that leave me? I don't know because I can't change who I am... |
| 10/02/03 at 17:13:14 |
| Samah |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| jannah |
| 10/02/03 at 17:19:19 |
| [wlm] wow cara and fozia i hope u guys around when i get married (whenever that is!!) great advice.. it seems so hard though wow i don't know how people do it... |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Maliha |
| 10/02/03 at 19:36:22 |
| [slm] "I don't love him anymore!" she whined, "All the more reason to LOVE him then" he replied, cool, confident.. "What do you mean! I said i DONT LOVE HIM" :'( "Yes, it's okay, I know what you said, But All the MORE REason to Love HIM" "Agahdlghasdlgh" >:( "Love is not a fleeting emotion we have no control over..." He begins with the usual philosophical swagger "love is an Action *verb*..when I say love him, I say be patient, coax him, be kinder than you are to your most respected friends and teachers, serve him, sacrifice for him, adore him, respect him...basically love him all the way right into the depth of your heart. And he will be hoplessly in total uncontrollable adoration of you" She bit her lip, silent..contemplative. (totally paraphrased, originified, excerpt from 7 Habits)..but basically the message is the same. Whatever I want my husband to do..i do it first..I cook for him, I spoil him, I don't mind if he does nothing back (i do but...) he ends up doing a lot without even me asking him. So the moral of the story is...if you want kindness and love, then shower him with much much more. A lot of relationships disintegrete (Sp) becuz the *woman* doesn't know how much power she has in defining the difference between a mushy, gushy, wanna make everyone throw up relationship and a stiff, stubborn, argumentative one. The reason why everyone seems to talk to the woman in doing more, is becuz anyone who is wise enough has figured out the rules to the game (called a relationship). So called "traditional" women, may seem "unassertive" and "dependent" but they assert their will through the most sugar coated, beautiful, gentle way that makes the man melt into any decision she might "feel is in his best interest". My hubby works *really* hard, so he is tired a lot, so when I can't get him to go to a halaqa for example..i go. Then I come back bubbly, energetic, telling him ALLLLL about the halaqa..discussion, what was interesting, what i thought, etc etc. The poor guy *has* to listen :P and most of the time he actually gets into it... and we talk, ponder over issues together, etc. So he might not go with me, but we end up having a mini halaqa at home. I am married to a somewhat "back home"ish guy..and i am from back home..there are just certain nuances that we know about eachother. You never ever mess with his pride. That's his manhood, don't try to "weaken" him for the sake of wanting to "share everything". it's dumb. sorry. but that's just some things that are inter-cultural i guess, and western people may not understand. But if you work on nurturing his manhood, until he feels you are his true best friend (not someone who wants to change him)...love him for who he is..BECAUSE of his faults, his imperfections, his "pride", "stubbornness" let all that melt into the realm of your unquestioning devotion and love. And trust me sis, you seem to have a good man (not abusive, taking care of you, etc) these little things can melt away with something as little as a change of attitude. You can maintain your pride, and try to get everyone to see what a "bad" guy he is, and how "righteous" you are..or you can simply dazzle him with your wit, charm, beauty, kindness, generosity, love, and sweetness and see the *immense* difference it makes in his attitude and yours too. I know you are independent and assertive and that's what comes naturally to you..but the minute you step into your home, your natural abode, your sanctity, then place those at the door. Simply recline into your God given talents of being a woman and all that it entails. Subhana Allah it's amazing that in Islam even things like beautifying yourself just for him, perfume, etc. are specified. It may seem like sooo "superficial" and why do we need to do that, Islam is about work, studying etc...but it's not. In reality it's building those fundamentals inside your home, of love, caring, going out of your way for each other..and when you have kids they grow up in the shade of all this affection and sweet environment...this is what we are meant to do...Allah knew best in creating us, and making us the *stronger* sex (in all the deeper dimensions of the word) 8) Sorry if i am doing what everyone else is doing..but I know you are a lady, and i know you have it in you to nurture the love out of him...guys are sooo dopey trust me sis ;) it doesn't take much to get them hooked on ya :P Sorry bros, i don't mean to diss ya all either:) sigh..procrastinating again..but couldn't resist giving my useless input ::) your Inexperienced Counsellin Sis, :-) [wlm] |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Samah |
| 10/02/03 at 22:01:33 |
| [slm] As salaam alaikum, thank all of you sisters for advice and time you have spent. May Allah reward you all. I mean it sincerely. However, I think I've come to the wrong place looking for advice. It seems as if everyone can make wonderful assumptions about who my husband is and negative assumptions about who I am or what things I must not be doing right. The ultimate solution here seems to be forget my own personal feelings, become more submissive, and nuture his manhood even at the expense of my own feelings. I'm not sure I can do that. In the end I will no longer be myself. I've been trying to stay optimistic about being a Muslim woman and being married but it seems I get no support and understanding from Muslim women. Sometimes I really feel like giving up. May Allah help me! Thank you sisters I'm done. |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Caraj |
| 10/02/03 at 22:34:18 |
| Well Dear Sister, I am going to be a bit blunt here and then I am done. No one is saying to forget your feelings and such. No one is saying our advice is easy. Regardless of what you think, many of us do understand. I am 41 with two grown and married sons 24 and 25. I have experience that I had hoped would help you. Others have experience that may of helped/ Easy.......NO Will it always work......NO I don't even know you, but in my heart I love you as sister as the same Almighty made us both ok? But sometimes the truth hurts Sounds like you are giving up on us like you are giving up on your husband He is not saying the things you want to hear and neither are we. We sypathize yet we are trying to help. You asked for our advice and did not hold up cue cards from which we could read. I am not saying anything to you I would not say to a younger blood sister. We are not saying what you wish to hear. Does he drink? Does he take drugs? Does he beat on you? Does he not pay the bills? Has he gone off and cheated(not actually asking, just something for you to think about) When you experience this then most likely many us of will say LEAVE You say there is more to this than we know, I am not asking you what, as it is not our business and you should only share what is in your comfort level. But we can only give advice on what information we have. I truly wish you the very best. Please know you're amoung many of the neatest folks I have met on the pc and they have an extraordinary way of caring and helping. We may not always agree with one another but we care. Please take care and I sure hope everything works out for you. I have no doubt you are very fustrated and this is a hard thing you are dealing with. By the way there are many wise and knowledgable sisters on the board who may be willing to private message with you. I don't know how long you have been on the boards, but might I suggest Momma Mod AKA Kathy She is full of wisdom and compassion and is quite respected by many on the boards. However, she is a straight shooter and although she will sypathize, she will tell you like it is. But at least this way should you wish to talk in more depth you can do it one on one in private Salaam and sisterly hugs [] Oh heck, I just saw where you were from :) I went to high school and college in Ft. Lauderdale :) cool Listen, I don't mean to come down on you. I truly do care. No matter if we see eye to eye. I am not in your shoes. If you need some support we are here. We are not siding with your husband. We are just suggesting things that may help. Also I don't think you realize how you come across. You do seem quite fustrated. But you also sound like you are right, determained and angry and wanting someone to side with you to leave. Would you of felt better if we had suggested you go outside and pick up a big stick and beat the :o out of him? Maybe put man'of war jelly fish in the tub? Or better yet make a palmetto bug soup.(giant flying cockaroach) :-/ (Florida humor) |
| 10/02/03 at 22:54:13 |
| Caraj |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| jannah |
| 10/03/03 at 02:24:13 |
| [slm] [quote]It seems as if everyone can make wonderful assumptions about who my husband is and negative assumptions about who I am or what things I must not be doing right. [/quote] The sisters are only trying to give you some advice, since you are here they can talk to you, your husband isn't here so they can't really advise him. They can only assume from what you have said because they don't know you or your husband or the sum total situation. Please don't be offended and just take it as sisterly advice from people who care for you as their sister in deen giving general advice and pointers on making a marriage happier. [quote] The ultimate solution here seems to be forget my own personal feelings, become more submissive, and nuture his manhood even at the expense of my own feelings. I'm not sure I can do that. In the end I will no longer be myself. [/quote] Umm I really don't think that's what they were trying to say. I think they are trying to give you ways and ideas on how to soften up your husband to get him to come to the table of compromise and understanding. Sometimes a relationship goes into a downward negative spiral and it's just soo difficult to stop that negative feedback and resentment, and come to the table to talk and break the cycle. BOTH of you need to come to the point of wanting to change and actively figure out ways to have a better relationship. From what you have told us, it seems like you are willing, but he is not. This is why the sisters are trying to help you to get him to get past his hurt and resentment and ego so that he can begin to be at least willing at the beginning to start seeing your point of view. I think you've mentioned more than once that the main problem you have with your husband is communication. Perhaps it's a good idea to get some of those communication books for married couples like 'Men are from Mars...' etc.. and maybe read those together with an open mind and discuss what's presented. As far as cultural issues and pride.. I really think it is *extremely difficult* if not impossible to change that in people -- men or women. So I don't know... if you really want to save your marriage... maybe it would be best to try to come to compromises in those issues...something u agree with and he agrees with. Ideally it would be nice if you could refer to Quran and Sunnah and go with the Shaikh on what's right... but sometimes two people even have difference of opinion on what is Islamically right... so in those cases you'd have to work out a system that is agreeable to you both... and Allah knows best. [quote] I've been trying to stay optimistic about being a Muslim woman and being married but it seems I get no support and understanding from Muslim women.[/quote] Don't know why being a Muslim woman is so dependent on marriage and advice from other women? Surely being Muslim has to do with your relationship with God and your faith and practice, not on other people. |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Maliha |
| 10/03/03 at 08:18:34 |
| [slm] awwwwwwwww samah i feel dissed:( all that writing... sigh. okay actually that excerpt was the author talking to the hubby not the wife...basically whoever wants to rectify the relationship should be willing to put the work in it. If your hubby came to ask for advice, i wouldn't change a word.. cuz the presumption is you can't force your hubby into changing, or even counsel him, you can only change your self, perception and be active in making it work. Basically u have three options: a) divorce him- cope out..and talaq is most hated in Allah's sight..but an option none the less b) continue the degenerative cycle of the relationship...basically fight, make up, not talk, fight, try conciliation, fight again, ask a sheikh, fight, etc -Not a suitable environment for the babies :( both of the above are very easy option..the one really hard one is to change yourself..and pray to Allah that He changes the situation you are in as a result. No one likes to hear this..sorry sis, I will keep you in my duahs..and please forgive me if i said anything insensitive...or offensive. None of us are in your shoes and basically we can only offer what we can give, looking at it from a one way mirror. {{{{{{hugggssss}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Sis in struggle, :-) [wlm] |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Fozia |
| 10/03/03 at 08:33:27 |
| [slm] Sr. Samah our advise is based on your posts, how can we be taking sides with your husband when we go by what you write?? We're all bought up in the west (I think), and we are all well educated professional women. If you had said he mistreated you then I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be making suggestions of ways to keep your marriage going. Why do you keep saying we are asking you to stop being you?? We aren't we are suggesting you compromise, take the first step, not telling you to become the submissive wife or whatever that dreadful book was called. From what I gather you've decided you want to seperate from your husband, so go ahead ask for Khula. However I wonder if after this marriage you may want to re-marry in the future?? Where do you suppose you are going to find this man without an iota of pride, who will bow to your superior knowledge?? This may sound harsh but it seems that's what you want, and trust me Sr, you're not going to find one of those within or without the folds of Islam. Last of all, putting your desires on the hold for a while doesn't mean you have to stop being you. My husband (yeah OK so here we go again) refused to let me learn to drive, why ??? because it's not done by virtuous women apparantly ::). At the time I decided to let it go, not worth fighting about, now as we've moved to a house far from my parents and shops husband is in sole charge of grocery shopping, watch him plead that I learn to drive :D .... Just because I compromise and prioritise my wishes, from definitely need now, through to it doesn't matter. Does not make me any less educated, emancipates woman, it does however make my husband love me. I hope you find happiness Sr. Wasalaam |
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| eleanor |
| 10/03/03 at 08:41:51 |
| [slm] well, I hope it's not too late and I hope you are not really "done" :) Just some advice I have to give you from skimming through the thread - 1. You are a convert and your husband is a born muslim. I am in the same situation. A fatal mistake that you are making is to correct him on Islamic practices. This is not your job nor is it your duty. I used to do that too and it only got my husband all defensive and worked up. By all means share your information with him - but objectively. For example if he is continually doing something wrong - something that in your opinion is wrong because you have read ahadith or spoken with the Sheikh, then *don't* just confront him and say " well you are wrong and here's the proof". What you have to do is just wait until you are both quiet and neither is particularly stressed out and say something like "I read a really interesting hadith today - It said "XXXX", and I was really surprised because I always thought it was the opposite, so I asked the Sheikh and he confirmed the hadith! Interesting huh?". Okay - so your husband has a *choice* which is very important. He can choose to say "Wow! I have been doing that wrong all the time - Alhamdulillah now I know the right way", or he will look at you blankly and say "So?" to which you reply "So nothing, I just found it interesting." Or he will go mad and say "What are you trying to say? That I am wrong and you are right?" to which you say "No no.. you completely misunderstood me, I just thought it was pretty interesting, that's all" and look at him with a surprised and slightly hurt face. You see you always need to give a choice to your husband. It's his call on how to react. All you have to do is to inform him of the correct things, subtley, and it's up to him if he acts on it or not. You are not responsible for your husband's deen but he is responsible for yours. So if he tells you the correct way to do something don't say "Well I think that's just culture and I need to see some proof before acting". No, what you do is change the way you are doing it until you can provide proof that his way is wrong. And then introduce it in the manner described above. Then if he is wrong, he is responsible for you doing it the wrong way, because he is responsible for you, as his wife and as a convert to Islam. Never ever assume that you know more about Islam than your husband. Even if you do go to all the classes and know more hadith and Surahs etc. 2. The thing about staying the night at the sister's house. If it was totally out of the blue, if he doesn't know the sister and if he was unprepared for it, then I think he did the right thing. He didn't forbid you, he just told you to make your own decision. And you did the right thing in coming home. I never ever do anything if I feel my husband is against or even uncomfortable with it. It probably is a culture thing where he comes from that married women don't stay overnight somewhere else. Then respect it. You have to consider what is more important - your husband's wishes or staying over at some sister's house. At the end of the day he is your other half and I would rather have my other half on my side than to lose it and have a sister is a poor substitute. 3. You mentioned that no one in your community likes divorce. Forget about them. You are Muslim now. What does Allah like? You know that divorce is the lowest on the list. It is the most disliked permissible practice by Allah and is only for extreme circumstances. 4. Cultural differences. I am European, my husband is Pakistani. So I can write a book about cultural differences. But you need to accept what has been said - that you are Muslim first and all culture and traditions and patriotism comes second to that. How about if I were to say to my husband - okay it's March 17th so I think we should go to the pub for St.Patrick's Day, or come on honey, let's go trick or treating for Halloween. It's my *culture*. Or even if he were to say - okay today is Pakistani Independance Day so we are to wear green and white and to to some cabaret evening where all the best singers and pop groups perform... It just doesn't work. You need to sacrifice most of your culture in the name of Islam anyway. I think the only "cultural" differences that are valid in Islam are that of the different schools - for example the Pakistanis/Turks that I know raise only their index finger for "La illaha illa Allah" in the salaat but the Arabic people I know (and their converted wives!) wiggle their finger all over the place for that whole section of prayer. Or the women pray as the men do in one school and pray diffrently in another school. My advice - go with your husband's school. Why not? And if it turns out to be wrong - may Allah protect us from this - then it's not your fault. I used to have big long discussions with my husband about how women pray. He was adamant that the woman should not raise her behind high in the air like a man, and I was like - I want to see proof! So finally I was so uncomfortable in my heart all the time while I was praying that I adjusted to his way and I feel a lot more peaceful about it now. ***Note: there are different scholar's opinions on this - see previous threads for details*** 5. Finally, just take things easy. Relax and let the responsibility fall from your shoulders. Take care of your own side of the marriage. Be nice and quiet and friendly to him. If he lectures you about something, then listen to what he is saying. Hear him out. If he says "because I say so" then let it be. Don't be so tense. And don't expect anything. That way you won't be disappointed. Concentrate on your relationship with Allah and remember that your husband is your key to Paradise. And if you are still unhappy then post her or IM me and rant as much as you like and hit stuffed dolls and shout "DArn it". Remember - Allah will reward you for every single little bit of patience that you show. Alhamdullillah wishing you all the best :) |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| theOriginal |
| 10/03/03 at 11:37:51 |
| [slm] You remind me of my sister. Not entirely, but somewhat. And no, I don't have any advice...I think the other sisters have done a really good job, Masha Allah. The answer is that you and your husband cannot get along. (wait wait!! hear me out...) How can it be that two people who have been brought up in entirely different homes, with different values, mindsets, perspectives...get along? How can it be when he is used to a certain way of life, and when you are used to another way of life? How can it be, when we have been brought up in our families, who have spoiled us, who have told us all along that we are reeeeally brilliant (even though, that is largely debatable), who have listened to us when we speak, who have put up with our "omgawwwwd leave me alone"s and our "mommy i missed my bus, can you drop me to school"s and our "i didn't finish my assignment, bhai pleeeeeeeeeease do it for me"s and our "daddy, can you call me and wake me up at 2:30 am even though you're going to be in a meeting at that time"s-- etc? (omg i am so spoiled.) But seriously, even if you were raised in the most dysfunctional family, you become used to a certain way of life. Getting married, then...is like the sudden death of that way of life. It is like the pillage of YOU. Because no matter HOW loving your husband is, how great he is, there is an adjustment to be made. On both ends. And if you are used to something, and he is used to something else.....HOW on earth are you supposed to get along?!! Once again, the answer is YOU CAN'T!!! ..Unless, Allah provides you with the love, compassion, mercy, and care that is needed to make it work. Unless, He (Swt) helps you both see eachother's point of view, and until both of you realize that the other person DOES have a point of view. And by the way, I've been told that Allah has guaranteed us love to the person we marry....so you're in good hands, insha Allah. My aunt told my sister that the first few years of marriage are like a rampaging river, which you have fallen in, in which you are just going and going and going. Keep your head above the water, because actually having control over which way to manoeuver yourself is almost impossible. I'm making duaa for you. Wasalaam. |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| SisterHania |
| 10/03/03 at 13:17:08 |
| [slm] Dear Sister Samah, I think it is difficult to offer impartial advice to alleviate your marriage difficulties unless both you and your husband are present to put forward your cases. Perhaps it may be of some use to seek out the advice of a trusted and learned member of the Islamic community, one that could offer some marriage counselling. If both of you present your dislike about each other to an unbiased party, then he or she can try to offer solutions in an Islamic context to satisfy both of your needs. I really hope your husband and you will consider the idea because it appears that your marriage has reached a dangerous level. In any successful team there is always a manager or leader who leads his team to victory. If there were no one to lead Friday prayer, prayers would not be offered in beautiful sync, if there were no teacher to control and guide his/her class there would be chaos and no learning. In the same way a husband, wife and children are a small team. To function effectively and make your team the best in the sight of Allah the family team, need a leader to look up to for answers and decision-making. What I sense between your husband and yourself is a fight for leadership. Both of you are clamouring to the top of a mountain to see who can get there first. Both of you are trying to command the position of the head of the household. In the process you are both engaging in a bitter battle of resentment. Perhaps you are not willing to offer the position to your husband because of his incorrect/lack of knowledge in Islamic matters. I think a wife craves security from her husband and this can come in many forms such as financial security, physical strength or greater knowledge about Islam. Perhaps you would feel more satisfied if you felt your husband was more knowledgeable about Islam than yourself and could advice you, perhaps then you would feel his decisions about the household were more sound. Just as women crave security men crave to be the ones who protect, care and offer support to their wives. Your superiority in regard to Islamic knowledge is something that frightens him and makes him feel less adequate as a leader or husband. Perhaps he feels it is his duty to take control, to know more and is longing for you to look up to him and ask him what should I do? By you knowing more and admitting to it, makes him feel unable to fulfil his position. When you challenge him with regard to Islamic matters, he feels it’s a challenge with regard to his ability as a husband. So in return he will try to justify his reasons to avoid being less than adequate in front of the one person he wants to be the protector of, you, his wife. It’s a shame that both of you are having a breakdown in the marriage over this matter. If no one can decide who is going to be the leader then surely you can try to be partners and each of you can make decisions with regard to matters you individually excel in. Why did you choose to marry him? Surely those reasons justify why you should try and work through your problems? Don’t change everything about who you are, but compromise and that works both ways. Both of you need to give as well as take. Communication and honesty plays a big part in marriage and if you try to tell him or write down what you are feeling then maybe it will be a step towards reconciliation. Try writing a letter about how you feel and give it to him. Think about how you would like him to change and in return ask him what he would like you to do. Finally sister I just want to say sorry and forgive me if I have said anything to offend you in this post. Prophet Muhammad's (saws) Last Sermon: [I]'O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right, then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. ' [/I] [wlm] Hania. |
| 10/03/03 at 13:53:40 |
| SisterHania |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Mohja |
| 10/03/03 at 14:22:01 |
| [slm] Dear sister, I feel for you. Being hurt by the one who’s supposed to be closer to you than anybody else in this world, your other half, your garment, must be highly devastating. We tend to hold those dear to us to a higher standard than anybody else because we think they should know better. Thus when they don’t measure up we feel deeply wounded and ill used. In cases like these we might forget that they are human beings too and as such are prone to weaknesses, insecurities, and bad judgements as well their positive counterparts, just like the rest of us. I also agree with you that the tendency in certain circles is to tell the woman to be patient while disregarding the emotional, psychological, spiritual, and potentially physical damage (in case of abuse) that might ensue from such a counsel. Unfortunately I cannot give you any recommendations simply because I’m not in your shoes. That’s the main impediment to offering any meaningful advice, especially in a medium such as this. The best its giver can do is faithfully relay their own perspective on the matter based on what little information is available to them. That’s what the sisters were trying to do. And as perspectives go of course they are colored by the particular background, history,and outlook of the person expressing them. In the same way that the perception of the person experiencing the problem is influence by their peculiar situation in life. That being said, sometimes it helps to hear from someone who has a different viewpoint from us. Sometimes our close emotional involvement in a situation may prevent us from seeing the solution even though it’s staring us in the face. Sometimes you have to take a bitter medicine in order to heal. I honestly believe only you can figure out what to do because only you know what is important to you, what you can compromise and cannot compromise on, or what you can or cannot tolerate. Still that is an imperfect knowledge. You need the help of the All-Knowing to light the way for you. I suggest you make istikhara and lots of du’a to guide you to the best decision. Ultimately you have to consider your goals in life and your relationship with your Creator and how any decision you take can promote or hinder those aims. You are obviously a strong woman. You just need some time to sort things out. I pray everything works out for the best. wassalam |
| 10/03/03 at 14:47:15 |
| Mohja |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| faisalsb |
| 10/04/03 at 09:20:27 |
| [slm] Well I think the advices are turned into a interesting discussion. Mashallah all the sisters have pointed out to different aspects of the problem and have given sincere advices but the comments what I have liked most are mentioned below: [quote]You want to ride a horse, first you've got to gain it's confidence by talking nicely to it and offering it suger cubes, horsey isn't going to come up to you and ask to be saddled now is it?? [/quote] I am just curious to know how many other sisters share the same view point, have tried it and what were the results ? |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Samah |
| 10/04/03 at 12:33:10 |
| [slm] Well, let me start out by saying. I am angry and I am frustrated and it makes me even more frustrated when I feel like I'm not being understood. That's what I wanted when I started this topic, understanding. Let me tell you, prior to marriage my husband and I talked a lot. He told me he wanted an independent, strong, educated woman who was assertive, outspoken and knowledgable about Islam. He told me that he wanted a "marriage of equals" in that he didn't feel certain responsibilities exclusively belonged to the woman. He told me I fit in that categorgy. Now that we are almost a year into this I realize that the type of woman my husband said he wanted is really not what he told me. It seems he really wants someone who will listen to what he says (Islamically and otherwise) even if what he's saying happens to be wrong without the slighestest challenge. He doesn't want to feel challenged in any way because his pride is so very strong. Do all men have pride? Sure. But what I have been trying to say is that my husband's pride is WAY over the top. Even the sheikh we visited for marriage counseling told me that was one of the main problems in our marriage. For example, one day I was reading Quran. I found an ayat that was extremely moving. I wanted to share my feeling with someone. I go into the room where my husband was (he was not busy) and I started telling him how I felt and how inspired I was. EVEN THAT made him feel insecure. He started talking down to me and telling me how he knew those things in his country. I could see it in his face that he wanted "bring me down a peg or two" perhaps because he felt threatened or even jealous...I don't know. What I do know is that I was absolutely SHATTERED. There are many more incidents like those. That makes me feel diminished, misunderstood, angry and hurt. Secondly, I feel that each of has things that we are willing to tolerate; things we can and cannot put up with. One of mine is that I cannot be with a person who tries to stunt my islamic and personal growth. I feel that my husband tries to do this in his effort to "win the power struggle". Kind of like if he puts me down he feels stronger. I DO NOT desire to be the leader of the house. I like a strong confident man who is humble enough to admit he doesn't know everything or admit when he's wrong. Am I perfect? No. Have I done any wrong in this situation? Sure. I'm the type of person who sees my wrongs and correct them. Asking Allah's forgiveness. But what happens when only one person is doing that in a marriage? I've thought about this whole thing long and hard. I've made du'a asking Allah to provide me with clarity. I need to be with a man who I can talk to straight. If I have a question, issue, problem or idea I don't see why I should have to do this round about thing making it seem like it was his idea or pampering him like a baby. We are both adults. Me having an idea or thought should not be taken as an attack on his manhood. Only a man who's manhood is "shaky" or a man who is insecure about who he is would feel threatened by such a thing. To me, when it comes to Islam, I don't care who's mouth it's coming out of (even a child's) if it's accurate and teaches me then mashallah. I don't know what more to say. I'm just trying to explain more about why I feel the way I do. This marriage can work if my husband is willing to humble him self just a little even. Start recognizing his issues. I'm willing to do the same but it's got to be an effort from BOTH of us. Insha'allah I plan to sit down with an Islamic counselor and lay out my issues and take it from there. |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Caraj |
| 10/04/03 at 12:39:44 |
| [quote author=Faisal Siddique link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=15#26 date=10/04/03 at 09:20:27] [slm] Well I think the advices are turned into a interesting discussion. Mashallah all the sisters have pointed out to different aspects of the problem and have given sincere advices but the comments what I have liked most are mentioned below: I am just curious to know how many other sisters share the same view point, have tried it and what were the results ?[/quote] I have used this and it WORKS!!!!!! :) It works with husbands, wives, mother and father-in-laws and daughter and son-in-laws. I wrote about it in a mother-in-laws thread not to long ago. I call it..... "LOVING THE MEANESS OUT OF A PERSON" and it's hard and one ends up biting their tongue and putting their feelings on the back burner but ahhhhhhhh the results are sooooo worth it. My daughter-in-law hated my guts from the word go. She and my son started dating when they were 14 3/4 and 17 and married when they were 18 and 21 ish. They are now almost 22 and 24. One Christmas present was in a bag with a 14 page letter about how I would never be welcomed and how I sucked as a mother. I was told I would never be welcomed in their home even if my son said I was, I would never be from her. Half of me wanted to strangle the little brat, and the other half was hurt beyond belief but I knew if I went to butting heads I would not only lose her but I would lose my son (till he came to his senses) and I was not willing to lose him not 5 minutes for my own pride. Anyway I instantly made up my mind and put my heart in gear. 1) As soon as she married my son, she became in my heart my daughter (not my in-law) and we always love our kids right Moms ;) we don't always like them but we alwaysssssssss love them. 2) Once she became my sons wife she was worthy and deserving of all my love, respect and admiration. 3) I would always smile, hug, and be as sweet as I could no matter how I felt inside. I could tell at times she wanted to barf :P when I would hug her at the end of an evening. Just the look, but I smiled and my heart was sincere. It took like 2 long hard years. TWO not weeks, months or one mere year. It took total commitment and determination that I would love the meaness out of her and love her unconditionally to the best of my ability. We have gone to the gym together laughing and joking, gone shopping, to dinners and them here and us there at there place. I stop by her work when I am in the area now (I would of never done that 2 years ago) I love her to death, and she has also bloomed into a mature sweet young lady. I think I may of bloomed a little to. Many thought I was nuts, even my x-husband (my two sons father) thought I was nuts and should of told them (both my son and his wife) where to go and how to get there :o In my opinion Sister Samah needs to decide if her marriage is worth it, worth the tongue bitting, the putting feelings on hold. If I never ever saw my daughter-in-law (God forbid) ever again, those two years of hurt and putting my feelings on the back burner were worth these last two years. I love my daughter. I don't always agree with her in some manors, But I truly truly love her and look at the most important thing we have in common!!!!!!!! We both love my son ;) I see Sister Samah has not responded, it is my most sincere hearts desire she is one of our lurkers and reading our post even if she is no longer responding. I fear she has given up on us as she wishes to do with her hubby cause we also did not say what she wished to hear. I pray she proves me wrong and comes back :'( :'( :'( Sister if you are out there, if I hurt your feelings and was to harsh please forgive this 'blunt to the point old lady country gal'. I do care. What I spoke to you works, but the only condition to it working is A VERY MOST SINCERE HEART. Without that (sincere desire and commitment to see it through) it will not work. Think of it this way 1) Once he became your husband he is deserving of total and all your love, respect and admiration 2) What do you have in common more important than your feelings? Allah, your love for Allah and desire to please Allah and do what he wishes. 3) You can either butt heads or love the criticalness out of him. It's your choice. REMARRIAGE ??? Let me tell you now, you may think you'll find better and maybe you can, but you'll leave a little part of your soul and heart in this marriage no mateer if you want to or not. Take it from someone who knows. And I did leave for abuse, but I still have an empty part in me from my prior marriage. Deep down but it is there. |
| 10/04/03 at 12:53:21 |
| Caraj |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Samah |
| 10/04/03 at 13:01:21 |
| Sister Hania, I think most of what you said is true. Except that I don't desire to be in a position of leadership I was just want my ideas to be respected and valued. I just want to be myself without him feeling like I am threatening his manhood. In the beginning my husband loved the fact that I was so passionate about Islam and aggressive in my pursuit of Islamic knowledge. He even told his friends that I had helped him improve his deen, alhamdulillah. However, I think the same characteristics he loved me for in the beginning are the very ones he doesn't like now. Let me provide you all with another example of a time where I NEEDED to tell him his behavior was inappropriate. Last Sunday my husband went to work. (He told me he was going because it was better than staying here with me :o) Anyhow, I went to do some errands and to meet my friend for lunch. I left him a message telling him that. When I returned it was time for Asr so I started praying. As I was praying I hear my husband come in the house and I hear a woman's voice. A woman was in our house! When I finished praying I kept quiet because I was furious. I asked him later about this woman. He told me that she had given him some chairs which he put on the patio. I asked him who she was and he told me she was from down the hall. I explained to him that Islamically he should not do that (invite some strange woman into our house). At the time he didn't even know if I'd be home! We're already having problems as it is, what would have happened if I came home and found this woman in our house? >:( The only explanation he gave me was that the woman had a boyfriend and he made sure to keep out of certain conversations with her. WHATEVER. How did he even get in a conversation with her to begin with?? Islmaically, you should avoid putting yourself in haram situations as much as possible, and you certainly don't want to put yourself in a position where the door is open for shaitain. |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Caraj |
| 10/04/03 at 13:18:05 |
| ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Sister Samah, I am so happy you proved me wrong and are still here. My heart feels more relief than you can know cause my heart truly goes out to you. We may not all agree but we all care ok? I'm just soooo darned happy you are still with us :-* :-* :-* I hope you took time to read what I delt with with my daughter-in-law and I also sent you a private message. Hang in there sis, we won't encourage you to leave him, I believe Allah tests us and wants us to work through our problems not run from them. After all our Lord does not run from us when we are less than lovable and worthy right? One cannot expect the Almighty to over look and forgive our short comings when we cannot extend the same courtesy and mercy to others around us. I know I speak for all of us when I say we care and we want to be here for you. |
| 10/04/03 at 13:21:06 |
| Caraj |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Fozia |
| 10/04/03 at 13:32:52 |
| [slm] Sr. Samah I am so sorry, things do appear to be more difficult for you than I first assumed. One of the sisiters mentioned that we don't know your situation as you are the one living it, I agree I apologise for making assumptions. Have to say, I married very young (although at the time mother thought I was old and destined to sit on the shelf forever to her shame ::)) At the begining my marriage was really bad, I even tried seeking Khula, offered him money on top of it to just leave, alhumdulillah I had people around me who helped us work things through, and I prayed and prayed like every prayer was going to be my last.... My personal problem at the begining was that I was very stubborn, if I wanted something I was going to have it my way and why not it's how everything in my life had worked out till that point. I think Sr. Justone put's it excellently. Things began to improve for me once I began thinking fine have it your way on this one it's not all that important. Now alhumdulillah I'm at the point where my husband will go with whatever pleases me, (so long as it doesn't entail leaving the country in the middle of the night as somone's upset me... ::)) Br. Faisal that was an analogy not a good one I admit but an analogy nevertheless. Wassalaam |
| A man's perspective |
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| bhaloo |
| 10/05/03 at 13:28:16 |
| [slm] [quote] Well, let me start out by saying. I am angry and I am frustrated and it makes me even more frustrated when I feel like I'm not being understood. That's what I wanted when I started this topic, understanding. [/quote] Sister Samah, I strongly urge you to buy the following book that Jannah mentioned: Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus: A Practical Guide for Improving Communication and Getting What You Want in Your Relationships http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/006016848X/002-7810991-3974403?v=glance It seems like the problem is that you two have a problem in communicating between yourselves and sister JustOne's post goes into some of the reasons, but one major reason is that men and women just have very different ways of thinking and expressing themselves (this should be appearant after one spends a few years on this board and seeing the different views expressed). And the book addresses this very issue and how to solve this problem. [quote] Let me tell you, prior to marriage my husband and I talked a lot. He told me he wanted an independent, strong, educated woman who was assertive, outspoken and knowledgable about Islam. He told me that he wanted a "marriage of equals" in that he didn't feel certain responsibilities exclusively belonged to the woman. He told me I fit in that categorgy. Now that we are almost a year into this I realize that the type of woman my husband said he wanted is really not what he told me. [/quote] My guess is he still wants a woman like that and he chose to marry you out of all the women in the world because he believed that you had the qualities that he was looking for. I'm sure if you ask him if he wants the above qualities in a wife even now, he probably would say yes. [quote] For example, one day I was reading Quran. I found an ayat that was extremely moving. I wanted to share my feeling with someone. I go into the room where my husband was (he was not busy) and I started telling him how I felt and how inspired I was. EVEN THAT made him feel insecure. He started talking down to me and telling me how he knew those things in his country. I could see it in his face that he wanted "bring me down a peg or two" perhaps because he felt threatened or even jealous...I don't know. What I do know is that I was absolutely SHATTERED. . [/quote] I don't believe it was his intention to insult your or bring you down a notch. You are correct when you say that men can have a lot of pride (generally speaking), and we like to be right and like to know the answers to everything and feel important. We've all heard the jokes about how a man will never ask for directions because he's supposed to know everything. Its true, I've found myself driving around looking to go to some place and getting lost and after wasting so much time, I finally call and ask the dude for directions. In the scenario you mentioned, I'd like to give you my take on what I think would have worked in that situation: You could have approached him when he was not busy and asked him, "I was wondering if you could explain a verse in the Quran to me?" (by saying that, you have just inflated his ego, made him feel like he is a king, he's probably thinking to himself that his wife has come to him to ask him about the Quran and that its his duty to help her). So he responds and says yes, and when you show him the verse he starts to relate to you what he learned from his teachers while growing up (at this point he's feeling really good because he feels he has taught you something). At that point you can then point him to a tafsir (I guess this is the part that moved you?) of that verse that you were looking at and ask him what he thinks of the tafsir and if it makes sense. Again you've made him feel important by asking him. From there a discussion can develop. At the end, what have you achieved? He's feeling good about himself because he feels he's taught you something and your feeling good because you discussed something with him that is very important to you, and the discussion led him to opening up a bit and softened his heart. In conclusion, you both probably have the same goals that you started out with, you just are having problems in trying to communicate these ideas. |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| pearl |
| 10/05/03 at 13:51:23 |
| [slm] Sister Samah, I found your questions and all the replies from our other sisters very interesting and helpful. I've thought alot about your situation, and here are my 2 cents: Men (and women, for that matter) don't like to be told that they are wrong. This is human nature. Depending upon where your husband is from, there may be other cultural issues attached to the idea of being wrong and accepting "correction". In some cultures, apologizing for anything is considered shameful. This doesn't mean that they think they are infallible. But, instead of saying "I'm sorry", they will indirectly admit their errors by changing their behavior. (That's the desired result, anyway, right?) Still, it's best to avoid putting someone on the spot and forcing the issue. Sometimes your husband is just going to be wrong about some things. (We all are.) Unless it's an issue that endangers you or your child or some major aspect of your life, sometimes it's just best to let it go. The suggestion to change his behavior by behaving in an exemplary and generous manner yourself is a good one. I've tried it. It works. Indirect persuasion by making him change his mind and allowing him to think it's HIS idea to change his decision also works. It can also be rather amusing, but never let him know what you're up to! :D Lastly, I hope I don't get in trouble here for saying this, but a man who is kept happy in his marriage bed is much more likely to say "Yes, sweetie" to just about ANYTHING. ;) Pearl :-) |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Caraj |
| 10/05/03 at 14:17:06 |
| Pearl I'm gonna keep my mouth shut on that last comment except to say ;) I mean :o I can't believe you said that Oh my goodness. The other thing you mentioned about allowing him tho think it's his idea. Oh course [s]now that hubby has his own id and reads this now ahem I mean [/s]I would neverrrrrrrrrrrrrrr do such a thing to my sweet hubby ;D But a dear friend of mine suggested that to me many years ago. I was mad I said why can't I be blunt, that is a head game. She told me it works. They had built a new bedroom on the lower floor of their house, there was a place in the wall that was sunken in a couple feet more then the rest of the walls. She wanted a closet there and he had already mentioned a book case I think. Anyway one day down there while working together she all of a sudden in a shocked voice put her hands to her cheeks and gave a :o look and said OH MY GOSH, WHERE are we going to put the closet ??? He looked at her most sincere look ;D and said how about right here, pointing to that area. She knew if she said she wanted the closet there he would of fought for the book case to be there. So she let him [s] think it was his idea[/s] decide where it should be that would be best ;D |
| 10/05/03 at 14:18:33 |
| Caraj |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| se7en |
| 10/06/03 at 01:24:01 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah, I just have a suggestion about correcting someone when they do or say something that you believe is improper or unbecoming of a Muslim. Part of the adab of Rasulullah [saw] in correcting someone is not only to do so in private, but to do so in a way that is not confrontational, or that makes the person feel humiliated or stupid. People have attributed your husband's dislike of being corrected to his *Male Ego*.. in truth I think EVERY human has this sense of pride and ego, to varying degrees. *No one* likes to be corrected, to be told they are doing something wrong, or to feel dumb because they don't know the answer to something. I'm not giving you this advice because you are a *woman* and he is a man; but because you are a *Muslim* -- and every Muslim should seek to preserve the honor of his brother/sister. A Muslim seeks to overlook a persons faults and help correct them in a way that does not make the person lose face or feel humbled. If you feel compelled to correct your husband on matters of deen, I think it would be much more effective if you did so in accordance to the adab Rasulullah [saw] enacted in his own efforts. In the seerah we can see many different ways Rasulullah [saw] corrected people.. one way was that instead of telling the person *directly* that they were doing something wrong, he would mention the action in a *general* way, and describe why it was improper. ("What do you think of a person who does such and such?") A story that comes to mind.. there was a man who was praying behind Rasulullah [saw], and when someone sneezed he said "Yarhamukallah" [*during the prayer*!] All the sahaba glared at him and the man said (from what I remember), "what are you all looking at?!".. haha :) when the salah was over - the prophet [saw] came to him.. and the man said: "I have never seen a better teacher than him before or since. He did not rebuke me, or hit me, or put me to shame. He just said, ‘This prayer should contain nothing of the speech of men; it is only tasbeeh and takbeer and recitation of the Qur’an.’” Another *beautiful* story is one I head recently on a tape by Sh. Muhammad ash-Shareef. There was a time when Rasulullah [saw] was with some friends talking; and one of his wives (I forgot which) came by with a platter with food and refreshments for them. She placed the platter near them and then she left. Then, Ai'sha, radhiAllahu anha came by with *her* platter, not knowing that the other wife had already brought some refreshments. When Ai'sha saw the other platter, she got *so angry* -- she took the other platter, slammed it on the ground, breaking it into pieces, and then walked away! (All this *in front* of Rasulullah [saw] and his friends!) What did Rasulullah [saw] do? Go after her and start yelling at her? Talk bad about her in front of his friends? He simply started picking up the pieces of the broken platter, and as an explanation to his friends he said "this is from her gheerah [jealousy]". Later, he gave Aisha's platter to the other wife and said "a platter for a platter". And he forgave her.. did not remind her of her behavior when things cooled down or humiliate her. Subhan'Allah! This is our beloved Rasulullah, salAllahu alayhi wasalam, whom we should seek to emulate. Of course, *no one* can reach his level of patience, kindness, forgiveness and beautiful etiquette and manner -- but we should all strive to be like him. And it doesn't make you less of a person, or less of a *woman* to be merciful like the prophet [saw] to your spouse. So again my advice is -- have a merciful attitude towards your husband -- the same type of attitude you would want others to have towards you when correcting your mistakes. may Allah bless us all with spouses who are like Rasulullah [saw] in character and kindness :) wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah :-) |
| 10/06/03 at 01:34:36 |
| se7en |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| SisterHania |
| 10/06/03 at 03:49:51 |
| [slm] What an exellent post Sis Seven!! I have learnt a lot after reading it. Really great. Jazakh'Allah for posting it. [wlm] |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Fozia |
| 10/06/03 at 06:07:49 |
| [slm] I dunnno about this 'men don't like being corrected' thing. I asked my husband out of curiousity if he ever felt angry with me for correcting him although I cannot for the life of me remember a time I have done or visa versa. My husband after thinking about it said he didn't remember a time either of us had corrected eachother. He said it didn't bother him if I did and I must have done, so long as it's not in a condescending manner.... We don't remember the times because to be honest, it's never been a big deal to us he knows a lot and I know bits and together we compliment eachother (if that makes any sense whatsoever). PS Sr, Pearls words are very wise too. Wassalaam |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Samah |
| 10/06/03 at 09:49:45 |
| [slm] Thank you all for your advice. Last night, as we went to bed, my husband himself told me he wanted to divorce....so there we have it. Allah knows best. ;) |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| eleanor |
| 10/07/03 at 12:07:51 |
| [slm] oh dear... Well at least you seem happy about it, judging by the winking smiley in your post. Sorry we weren't more helpful in saving your marriage but Insha Allah we have all learned from each other in the process. |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Samah |
| 10/07/03 at 12:31:08 |
| [quote author=eleanor link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=30#39 date=10/07/03 at 12:07:51] [slm] oh dear... Well at least you seem happy about it, judging by the winking smiley in your post. Sorry we weren't more helpful in saving your marriage but Insha Allah we have all learned from each other in the process.[/quote] Well, the fact is it's just not working for us. I wish him well and I hope he finds what he's looking for. I've learned a lot about myself and my flaws and what I need to look for next time around. Allah knows best. I thank all of your for your comments whether I agreed or disagreed. :-* |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| faisalsb |
| 10/08/03 at 07:51:02 |
| [slm] Well sister Samah it's really sad that you are going to be get divorced once again. Although it's your or your husband's personal choice whatever decision you people take about your lives but it might be helpfull to many members on the board if you can share with us if there are any other reasons also to take such severe decision. Particularly from your husband side since it sounds from your posts that only you are the one who is suffering from this marriage then why your husband wants to divorce you? By the way are you sure the next choice what you are going to make won't be wrong like the current one? (Because it appears from your posts that it was so called LOVE MARRIAGE and both of you knew each other well before getting married) |
| Re: My Marriage is on the line (again) |
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| Samah |
| 10/08/03 at 10:02:57 |
| [quote author=Faisal Siddique link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=30#41 date=10/08/03 at 07:51:02] [slm] Although it's your or your husband's personal choice whatever decision you people take about your lives but it might be helpfull to many members on the board if you can share with us if there are any other reasons also to take such severe decision. Particularly from your husband side since it sounds from your posts that only you are the one who is suffering from this marriage then why your husband wants to divorce you?[/quote] He has the same reason as me. we're just unable to communicate with one another even down to basic, everyday conversations. We can't even agree on salaat times! :o [quote author=Faisal Siddique link=board=sis;num=1065108674;start=30#41 date=10/08/03 at 07:51:02] [slm] By the way are you sure the next choice what you are going to make won't be wrong like the current one? (Because it appears from your posts that it was so called LOVE MARRIAGE and both of you knew each other well before getting married)[/quote] No one can be sure that a marriage is going to last, not even the most knowledgable of people. I truly believe that you can never know someone until you live with and are married to them. Allah knows best. As far as it having been a "love marriage" it was not. I cannot speak for my husband but I am not in love with him. I have affections for him and I care about him but not love him. I married him because I thought we could practice Islam togther, learn together and because I was trying to fulfill the sunnah of the Prophet [saw] (having done this after being alone for eight years). |
| 10/08/03 at 10:04:37 |
| Samah |
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