A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously) |
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| Nomi |
| 10/04/03 at 14:47:56 |
| [slm] [i]Its a serious question ...[/i] How would you run a *Muslim/Islamic* state ? Apart from having all the good things eg. education, health, rights etc.... [list] [*] Would you allow import of alcohol for non-Muslims living in this state ? [*] Would you allow import of cigarrates (sp?) ? [*] Would you allow cable TV with *all channels*... if not all then which one ? [*] Would you allow production of movies? what sort ? [*] Would you allow import of indian/english etc movies? all of em ? [*] Would you prefer co-edu or separate classes for both genders at all levels (Remember, *you* are running the state) [*] If everyone is *well* kept in the state. What would be the punishment of thieves ? [*] How would you want media to work? Would there be mix shows/dramas with people intermingling and giggling and having fun even them being non-mehrams ? Would ladies be wearing *only* Hijabs+Jilbabs ? [*] <you ppl can add more Qs? too> [/list] A request: Please dont bring in fatwas at the initial stages, though me may need them later. Just mention your take on it for now :) [slm] |
| 10/04/03 at 14:59:42 |
| Nomi |
| Re: How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously |
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| Nomi |
| 10/09/03 at 04:06:47 |
| [slm] I must say, you guys mashaAllah have the qualities of sahabah [ra] as i've heard that many of them also dint like to be at governing positions :) as its lotsa responsibility and one will be answerable for *everything* that goes on in one's rule. There is also this famous 'qol' (saying) of Omer [ra] but i better not put it here as it might be asked as a Q? in next episode of Madina Survivor around 2010 :P Anyhow here are my answers... [list] [*][color=Black] Would you allow import of alcohol for non-Muslims living in this state ?[/color] [*] No. (obviously) [*][color=Black] Would you allow import of cigarrates, cigars (sp?) ?[/color] [*] No as its injurious to health :) (may be for medication) [*][color=Black] Would you allow cable TV with *all channels*... if not all then which one ?[/color] [*][color=Black] Would you allow import of indian/english etc movies? all of em ?[/color] [*][color=Black] How would you want media to work? Would there be mix shows/dramas with people intermingling and giggling and having fun even them being non-mehrams ? Would ladies be wearing *only* Hijabs+Jilbabs ?[/color] [*][color=Black] Would you allow production of movies? what sort ?[/color] [*] <answer for above 4> Only *censored* sports, news and channels like discovery BUT considering that there is difference of opinion on the matter of 'tasweer' so there will be an ongoing awareness movement and efforts will be made to start channels having no 'tasweers' of humans. Having said that, While ppl are being provided with the three types of channels mentioned above, this thought will keep haunting me that if i die while ppl are watching questionable (as there is difference of opinion) stuff on TV under my government how shall i be able to justify it to Allah!! Those who'll be for 'tasweer' will have to take full responsibility in written (you can't underestimate the importance of processes and documentation :) ) if they are to let ppl watch that stuff (live tasweer is ok i guess!) but still the shows will be segregated and special alerts will precede the shows telling that either its for ladies or gents so that ppl may decide not to watch them for the purpose of lowering gaze. [*][color=Black] Would you prefer co-edu or separate classes for both genders at all levels (Remember, *you* are running the state)[/color] [*] Separate blocks for both genders. (Reminds me of a research conducted in Australia that proved productivity of children is more in segregated classes, dont have the link at hand!) [*][color=Black] If everyone is *well* kept in the state. What would be the punishment of thieves ?[/color] [*] This is a tough one. First i'll ensure that the punishments of all crimes have been conveyed to the masses and then will consult the 'shura' [/list] [slm] |
| 10/09/03 at 04:13:42 |
| Nomi |
| Re: How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously |
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| jannah |
| 10/09/03 at 14:03:22 |
| slm, Bro... I have this theory called the "Haram floats to the top"... basically if people nowadays tried to run a state they would find [i]everything[/i] haram. So there'd be no use. I think a state should have minimal interference with people's lives. The law should be there and what is grossly haram ie alcohol, porno, drugs, etc should be enforced. But the rest of it should left to the people. And there should be every method made to educate and spread the good ideas and ideals of islam. |
| Re: How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously |
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| ampbreia |
| 10/10/03 at 17:00:07 |
| I have often heard Muslims complain that no country on earth is a true Muslim state. However, since the dawn of Islam, the Muslim state has always been attempted. The results have, with only slight variances, been about the same: police states where women and non-Muslims alike are continually being degraded and/or punished simply for being what they are, freedoms of all kinds are strictly discouraged (including freedoms of thought and press), slavery is common (after the example of the Prophet), technical and economic progress dies due to heavy oppression against many progressive forms of creativity, and torture and exceedingly cruel punishment are the norm not the exception. Have you you ever seen anyone stoned or skewered to death for appostasy or adultery? Have you ever seen a theif maimed? Have you ever seen that maimed theif EVER get an honest job again afterward? Seen someone whipped in the street until their whole back and legs are bloody and bruised? How about tortured? I don't mean to offend anyone's sensibilities here, but those things have existed in every country that ever attempted to practice "pure" Islam straight from the Koran. Those things have turned up piecemeal in various other cultural situations, but only in "Islamic" nations can ALL of them generally be found in FULL Force. No, I take that back. It's true NOW, but other cultures have have had their historical dark times of total despotism and/or theocracy: Marxist/Communist Russia (well, not as extreme as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Nigeria, of Iran, but still pretty bad), the "Burning Times" (when Puritans in the American colonies and Catholics in Europe were so Hell-bent on persecuting, torturing, and burning to death witches and appostates), and of course the notorious Spanish Inquisition (Catholic?). They may not ALL have theocracy in common, but they ALL share the common trait of one group of people wanting abosolute control over the thoughts and actions of ALL people. What is it about Islam that this has been the case with Islam throughout history? What is there about Islam that seems to require this? |
| Re: How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 10/10/03 at 19:17:46 |
| Jannah, I didn't know you had libertarian leanings. wow what a great day! |
| Re: How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 10/10/03 at 19:54:11 |
| ambriea, I do not think it is about Islam, but about people who interpret it as Islam. I think it was posted on here somewhere, where the best leaders should be one who has no desire to lead but to do God's will. The difficulty in the natural state of politics is that most leaders are those who want to lead and those who seek power get corrupted or are already corrupt. I think all states eventually lead to a police state and it is up to the people to try to resist this as much as possible (in a legal and peaceful sense if at all possible). |
| Re: How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously |
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| Maliha |
| 10/10/03 at 19:57:55 |
| [slm] Wow Ampbreia, you make some really really really great generalizations. The state of Muslims now is not what ideally should be the case..but historically?? Are you sure you are getting your sources from the correct places (and [s]not missionary sites[/s] cuz those arguments sound pretty similar to the utter distortion that is presented by them). When Islam rose to it's great height, as a civilization, and before it's final decay, there were some amazing things that came out of there. Ideas were exchanged freely, oppression all over was quelled, people of other faiths even came to the Muslim leaders to ask for asylum and protection from their *tyrannical* leaders. If you want a good reading go read about the Crusades and what happened there. Go read about the Roman empire burning libraries and wealth of information cuz they were threatened by reason and conflict of faith. In sharp contrast to those dark times, the Muslim civilization brought the biggest advances in all areas of sciences, philosophy, literary criticism etc. The problem with Muslims today in general, is we actually left the teachings of the Quran (surprise ::) ) and are disconnected from the life giving force that is in its pages. The colonialist had made comments that the only way to conquer the Muslims was to separate them from the Quran...They weren't successful in ridding the Quran itself, but they were very successful in making the Muslim busy with everything but the most important text that illuminates the hearts of all those who are open enough to read its words with wisdom and reflection (read it sometime you may actually be surprised). You can *not* look at the some aspects of Shariah divorced from the totality of religion and start criticizing Islam by it. The Rasul [saw] through Islam was able to ABOLISH slavery systemically, so the concept of people having slaves becuz of the Rasul [saw] is baseless...Read the Quran and see how systemically it instituted the freeing of slaves in almost every injunction. The issue of hands being cut...if you actually look at the time of the Prophet [saw] to the end of the first 4 Khalifas, only 15 people under the Islamic state had their hands cut off. The ideas is to implement awareness, outreach, taking care of the oppressed and poor..and then in a healthy society like this when someone insists on transgressing and stealing, the cutting of hand is instituted. You can't do that off the bat, with poverty, gap between rich and poor etc. You can't just establish your "state" and start slashing people's hands. The issue of stoning adulterers does not even originate in our shariah..that came from the Torah (long explanation here that many Muslims aren't even aware of today)....so does that Make Judaism messed up? Living in a society where adultery is the norm, morality is down, diseases are up, kids growing up in a filthy environment of deceit, lying, etc...you think that is acceptable? Divorce has been made legal why the necessity to go cheat? It's debasing human nature itself... We can discuss a lot of these issues you bring up in the right context. Islam does not require any of this madness you saw articulately bring up...Read the Quran, I challenge you to actually consider its world value and how much potential it has in reforming not only the individual but the society and world at large...but please in the mean time, be careful how you "express" your views, because insulting a whole history of a people, their belief system, and very foundation of faith..is not the way to engage a decent human being in discourse. There is ettiquette in how you approach things, people, ideas, and concepts and no matter how bad your experience has been with the messed up muslims that doesn't justify you taking it out on everyone. Peace unto you... :-) [wlm] [quote author=ampbreia link=board=madrasa;num=1065289678;start=0#3 date=10/10/03 at 17:00:07]I have often heard Muslims complain that no country on earth is a true Muslim state. However, since the dawn of Islam, the Muslim state has always been attempted. The results have, with only slight variances, been about the same: police states where women and non-Muslims alike are continually being degraded and/or punished simply for being what they are, freedoms of all kinds are strictly discouraged (including freedoms of thought and press), slavery is common (after the example of the Prophet), technical and economic progress dies due to heavy oppression against many progressive forms of creativity, and torture and exceedingly cruel punishment are the norm not the exception. Have you you ever seen anyone stoned or skewered to death for appostasy or adultery? Have you ever seen a theif maimed? Have you ever seen that maimed theif EVER get an honest job again afterward? Seen someone whipped in the street until their whole back and legs are bloody and bruised? How about tortured? I don't mean to offend anyone's sensibilities here, but those things have existed in every country that ever attempted to practice "pure" Islam straight from the Koran. Those things have turned up piecemeal in various other cultural situations, but only in "Islamic" nations can ALL of them generally be found in FULL Force. No, I take that back. It's true NOW, but other cultures have have had their historical dark times of total despotism and/or theocracy: Marxist/Communist Russia (well, not as extreme as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Nigeria, of Iran, but still pretty bad), the "Burning Times" (when Puritans in the American colonies and Catholics in Europe were so Hell-bent on persecuting, torturing, and burning to death witches and appostates), and of course the notorious Spanish Inquisition (Catholic?). They may not ALL have theocracy in common, but they ALL share the common trait of one group of people wanting abosolute control over the thoughts and actions of ALL people. What is it about Islam that this has been the case with Islam throughout history? What is there about Islam that seems to require this?[/quote] |
| Re: How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously |
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| Nomi |
| 10/11/03 at 04:14:43 |
| Peace ampbreia :) [quote author=ampbreia link=board=madrasa;num=1065289678;start=0#3 date=10/10/03 at 17:00:07] What is it about Islam that this has been the case with Islam throughout history? What is there about Islam that seems to require this?[/quote] I hope my sister's words in the thread above cleared few misunderstandings of yours. I just wanted to ask you something i.e. Why is it that not only Islaam is the fastest growing religion in the world but people from [i]the[/i] most civilized nations are joining Islaam, i don't see any sword hanging on their heads, do you? And dont worry your words dint offend any one, this place is all about learning, we learn from you, you learn from us. Peace :) Asim Zafar. |
| 10/11/03 at 04:18:23 |
| Nomi |
| Re: How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously |
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| bhaloo |
| 10/11/03 at 09:50:17 |
| [slm] [quote author=123 Kid link=board=madrasa;num=1065289678;start=0#7 date=10/11/03 at 04:14:43] And dont worry your words dint offend any one, this place is all about learning, we learn from you, you learn from us. [/quote] Actually her words and hypocrisy were offensive to me. But yes, Maliha alhumdullilah has answered her and Se7en and Jannah answered her in another thread in the al-manar folder. |
| Re: How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously |
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| Nomi |
| 10/14/03 at 01:23:02 |
| [slm] [quote author=jannah link=board=madrasa;num=1065289678;start=0#2 date=10/09/03 at 14:03:22] I have this theory called the "Haram floats to the top"... basically if people nowadays tried to run a state they would find [i]everything[/i] haram. So there'd be no use. [/quote] That theory is A okay with me and many gr8 scholars that i've listened to are of the same opinion but isn't it different when you arn't common people and are actually running the state when you are responsible for everything that happens in it? How would someone running the state abide by that ayah of The Noble Quran which says (interpretation of the meaning) "you'll be asked of your 'ra-eyat' (your subordinates, those who are governed by you)" when they are being provided with (in a way) the questionable stuff ?? wassalam Asim Zafar |
| 10/14/03 at 01:27:09 |
| Nomi |
| Re: How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously |
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| BroHanif |
| 10/14/03 at 03:58:25 |
| Salaams, Force something onto people when they are not ready to accept it it will go underground or they will have a backlash at the first opportunity. For example, fall of the Taliban and you saw queues at the barbers for the guys to get rid of their beards since they had no inclination to wear em in the first place. I think Jannahs right but hey nowadays who wants to run a state only the brave. I think if you have a couple of things in place then running a state is slighly easier. Health Low Poverty Security Low Taxes Jobs I think if you have the above then it can make a big difference in the running of any country. What do you think? Salaams Hanif |
| NS |
| Re: How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously |
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| Nomi |
| 10/14/03 at 04:25:41 |
| [slm] [quote] I think if you have the above then it can make a big difference in the running of any country. What do you think? [/quote] Ofcourse. And making ppl do something is different, making them grow beards is [i] very different[/i] and in my opinion is not the correct way to do things but my question was, should someone as a governing body [i]provide[/i] people with things that are not inaccordance with islamic teachings e.g. co-edu, shows that are shown on media nowadays etc ?? Handling such issues as common Muslims when they are there is different but we are talking about running a Muslim state when its in our hands to stop such stuff and when we'll be answerable for it too! (that ayah) [slm] Asim Zafar. |
| 10/14/03 at 04:29:18 |
| Nomi |
| Re: How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously |
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| ampbreia |
| 10/14/03 at 14:48:38 |
| William Bramley, in the “Gods of Eden,” says that when the Hebrew armies reached Canaan, Jehovah ordered them to depopulate all of the region’s existing cities and towns. Therefore, during a 7-year period under the command of a new leader by the name of Joshua, they slaughtered thousands of men, women, children, and animals, following the genocide of each city or town with a looting for treasure, then burning it to the ground. “So Joshua killed all in the country of the hill, and of the south, and of the valleys, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded.” JOSHUA 10:40 When I read such passages myself, back in Sunday school as a teenager, I too was horrified and still am, particularly those passages pertaining to King David’s atrocities, which are far more graphically violent. Being rather outspoken by nature, the first question to pop out of me in class was, “How could a Good god possibly command such awfully acts?” And the answer? There were two, given interchangeably at different times: 1. “Those people deserved to be decimated because they didn’t worship Jehovah.” 2. “The Lord God works in mysterious ways we can’t begin to comprehend.” I’ll say! Most times, though, the teacher just told me “Be still Tongue of Satan!” Why, I wondered, for questioning a justification for genocide and the sort of mind that can condone it? Needless to say, I soon left Christianity and tried out the apologists version of Islam under the tutelage (not to mention HEAVY pressure) of the Muslim man I met and married in college. It’s a long story, so spare yourselves by not asking. Here is a link to a summary of it (Freedom & the High Cost of Convictions) and the book (Lost in Foreign Passions) I wrote about it, though, if you’re curious: [quote] OFFENSIVE WEBSITE DELETED [/quote] You speak of Old Testament Judaism having inspired the stoning to death punishment for adulterers. I believe you, having read of such in the Bible myself, but I find this an interesting concept for other reasons. For one thing, I have been unable to find any reference to stoning adulterers anywhere in the Koran and I have been browsing through it for years. The only reference to punishment for adultery I can find (please don’t ask me the exact passage because I don’t have it handy) is that the adulterer receive 100 (or was it 80?) stripes with a whip in the street. Reference to stoning seems to appear only in the haddiths where the Prophet is seen in many occasions to order the stoning to death of this person or that. As for inspiration for ancient Judaism, I can see the possibility of it since, after all, Koran claims to be a continuation of the Bible and Mohammed a descendent of all the Biblical prophets, including Jesus. But there’s a discrepancy here and I wonder if you know why. I don’t, by the way. Why follow (some, not all) of the teachings of the very ancient, very violent, Hebrew prophets, acknowledge Jesus as a prophet too, and yet miss all of the most basic and important of Christ’s teaching? What about “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and render unto God what is God’s” (separation of politics and religion) and “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”? (This pertains to equal and humane treatment of all – something that definitely doesn’t happen under Sharia Law). :( As for what happens under Sharia Law, I’m sorry if my bluntness and inability to sugarcoat anything has offended any of you. Really, you’ve all shown nothing but grace and kindness. I’m sure you’re all very nice people. Speaking of which, my boss happens to be a jewel of a sweet and tenderhearted person, despite being Jewish and a descendent of those ancient Hebrews spoken of earlier. In fact, I would say her type is the rule and not the exception – though perhaps she is sweeter than most. People are often a lot nicer than what their religions actually promote. This is why I feel it is more honest, for myself at least, to be agnostic rather than endorsing any religion I cannot be in 100% accord with. When I learned about true Islam in practice, I fled from that even faster and more vehemently than I fled from Christianity, though the reasons were similar: I found a brutal and unjust core to it. Still, even when nice people like you speak of Sharia law, I, as a human being first of all and a non-Muslim WOMAN secondly, get seriously alarmed. Sharia law is terrifyingly similar to what the ancient Hebrew practiced and what modern day Jews DO NOT. About that last, I will only say that if the modern day Israelis were anything like their distant ancestors, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict would have been over long ago because there wouldn’t be anymore Palestinians. Enough said about that taboo subject though. :P Anyway, here is the link to an article I stumbled across this morning that quite encapsulates what I and other non-Muslims worry about when we hear Muslims discussing the imposition of Sharia law on us. I hope you will take the time to read and understand it: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10242 |
| 10/14/03 at 21:42:55 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously |
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| Maliha |
| 10/14/03 at 16:12:00 |
| [slm] interesting Ambreia you seem to have come to all the conclusions you need, so may I ask what exactly is your intention here? obviously it's beyond discourse as looking through your site it seems you have a pretty set agenda against Islam in particular. Are you hoping that your faulty paradigms of thought will "wake" one of us up, into believing and loving the secular frame of mind? For to speak up *against* shariah so forcefully is to first defend the existing paradigm of thought as being the "center"..and the existing paradigm is *not* so "objective" or lacking in "value". There is a very definitive value in today's world/society and that is the deliberate elimination of God, Religion and any concept of faith (in the Divine ofcourse) in every level of reality and existence. So how can you claim to have *any* belief in the God when you are so willing to bow down to the current multi-gods of so called "freedom", "rationality", "progress" etc. ? The reason I am inquiring about this, is to draw your attention to the very fundamental outlook/philosophy on life. What's your worldview? You will never begin to understand Islam (which has a very diametrically different view on Prophets and Justice and the unseen then the distorted versions related by the bible)...You will never understand this frame of thinking, this paradigm, if you don't understand the basic concept and that is Tawheed. Tawheed is the belief in the centrality of God and seeking His pleasure, is the domain of every Muslim's action whether mundane, spiritual or otherwise. The center is *not* man in Islam, but God. Once you understand this basic philosophy you realize this world view is indeed "dangerous". For to fully belief in Allah, and seek to implement Allah's Will in the realm of educating ourselves, seeking to establish justice, and increasing people's awareness to fully recognize and encompass the Divine is against everything modernism and "post" modernism worked for and strove to do..ie. eliminate the concept of Oneness from people's minds. How can you understand Shariah when your worldview is dominated by many ideologies? Shariah doesn't serve the gods of desires, passions, and is not precarious..Shariah is grounded in guiding man towards forming a healthy society governed and centered around God. We can not begin to visualize what this society looks like, because today we are hard pressed to find ONE individual that is truly centered and has truly surrendered willingly and wholly to Allah. Also on the topic of politics and the link to the article you provided is funny to say the least. For one today's politics are governed by the Failure of Modern thought and everyday we are changing the ideology (from modernism to globalization) to suit and make it sound like this "new" god will make it work. The fact that people of faith lived together for centuries without any friction is often overlooked...but that's besides the point. Today I can just as easily write books on how Muslims are mistreated all over the world! i mean just look around you!!! What does that say? The degeneration of mankind has a lot do with too many issues and one of the fundamental ones is basically forgetting the very purpose of our creation... So you came to the conclusion based on *your* very illogical embracing of Islam (based on "love", "passion" and not true understanding of it), and then basically a bad experience in a cultural version of Islam, and so now you are set to tell the whole world about how "bad" islam is? My dear sister, i truly believe God guides whom He Wills (it's in the Quran) and hence I can not convince you of anything... but I can advice you to chill out..take a step back and really reflect on what exactly you are trying to "fight" for. Is Shariah that scary to you? Why is it so bad? Cuz the freedom to fornicate and sleep around spreading diseases etc will be taken away? I don't get it. And that's arguing on the presumption that today's ideological framework is the best for humanity (puhhhleasse) simply look at the results on ALL levels of individual, family, societal disintergration to see it doesn't work. Stop trying to dance around in a sinking ship...you better catch the lifeboat before it's too late. sigh.... May God illuminate our hearts and guide our visions to a better tommorow. [wlm] |
| Re: How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously |
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| BroHanif |
| 10/14/03 at 16:54:32 |
| Just a couple of points... [quote]Anyway, here is the link to an article I stumbled across this morning that quite encapsulates what I and other non-Muslims worry about when we hear Muslims discussing the imposition of Sharia law on us. I hope you will take the time to read and understand it: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10242[/quote] This article says that Christians are being persecuted all over the world, well how about the Christian and Judu hawks that invaded Afghanistan and Iraq and are now ready to sink their blood thirsty fangs into Syria?. I bet that hasn't clicked your concious yet. Oh hang on the article also mentioned about Christians in Palestine, oh gidy me just 100 years ago Muslims, Christians and Jews lived in Palestine together, synagogue nx to mosque, nx to church and no problems yet today you say that its Muslims who are in the wrong?? Where do you get your news from the lovely CNN?. Lastly, I would say in order to really understand Islam and Sharia Law you need to read your resources carefully and stick around with some sound people i.e your husband and his family it seems may have had an adverse effect on you. I hope you stay around here and talk to some Muslims and learn together about Islam. Hanif |
| NS |
| Re: How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously |
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| bhaloo |
| 10/14/03 at 23:13:33 |
| [slm] [quote author=Nur_al_Layl link=board=madrasa;num=1065289678;start=0#13 date=10/14/03 at 16:12:00] interesting Ambreia you seem to have come to all the conclusions you need, so may I ask what exactly is your intention here? obviously it's beyond discourse as looking through your site it seems you have a pretty set agenda against Islam in particular. Are you hoping that your faulty paradigms of thought will "wake" one of us up, into believing and loving the secular frame of mind? [/quote] :two thumbs up: That pretty much sums it up. First of all there isn't a country on this planet that implements shariah. Ambreia, I also took the time to read the article you put up and have to say that its very biased and filled with very inaccurate information. The problems in the middle east we can trace back to US foreign policy and below are just some examples: Syria, 1948 - The U.S. overthrows the regime; Syria turns anti-U.S. Iran, 1954 - The U.S. overthrows nationalist Mossadegh, puts the shah in power. Result: Ayatollah Khomeini's 1979 Islamic revolution. Egypt, 1955 - The U.S. tried to kill nationalist Gamal Abdel Nasser. He turns to the Soviets. Iraq, 1958 - The U.S. puts Col. Kassem in power. He turns into an anti-American lunatic. Indonesia, 1967 - The U.S. overthrows Sukarno. The army and mobs then kill 500,000 Sukarno supporters. Libya, 1969 - The U.S. helps a young officer, Moammar Khadafy, seize power in Libya, then tries to kill him in 1986. Iraq, 1975 - The U.S. helps young Saddam Hussein seize power. In 1979, the U.S. encourages Saddam to invade Iran in an effort to crush Iran's Islamic revolution. Some 700,000 die in the war. Lebanon, 1983 - U.S. forces intervene in the civil war to prop up the Christian government, 240 U.S. Marines die. Kuwait/Iraq, 1991 - The U.S. goes to war against former ally Saddam, but keeps him in power. Somalia, 1992 - The U.S. intervenes in a civil war, loses men and flees. Iraq, 1996 - A U.S. attempt to create a Kurd mini-state collapses under Iraqi attack. CIA agents run for their lives. Palestine, Afghanistan, Chechneya, Bosnia, Somalia, etc. The US has basically created havoc and destruction whereever its gone killing millions of people, Muslims as well as non-Muslims in the process and creating hatred amongst people. With all the suffering and deaths that the Muslims are going through, its definitely a wake up call for many Muslims and they realize now that the only way to return back to success is when Islam returns back into the lives of people. And I pray that insha'Allah (God willing) this day will happen soon. |
| Re: How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously |
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| Nomi |
| 10/15/03 at 02:36:02 |
| [quote author=ampbreia link=board=madrasa;num=1065289678;start=0#12 date=10/14/03 at 14:48:38] This is why I feel it is more honest, for myself at least, to be agnostic rather than endorsing any religion I cannot be in 100% accord with. When I learned about true Islam in practice, I fled from that even faster and more vehemently than I fled from Christianity[/quote] Hey you didn't address my first question!! np, here is my second :) When we talk to a non-Muslim about Islam and for that matter are calling someone to Islam, we are one hundred percent sure that what we believe in is the truth and thats why by the grace of God we are confident in our words. But from the part that i quoted it is clear that you still are confused about the basics!! You choosing to be an agnostic is just another example of it. You said it is more "honest" for you to be an agnostic, i say more honest would be that you become a Muslim coz naturally the one who is not sure about things as basic as that there is a God, should go by those who are 100% sure of what the truth is. Again, its not our words but God who guides people to the truth. Take care and keep visiting. |
| Re: How would you run a *Muslim* State? (Seriously |
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| timbuktu |
| 10/15/03 at 06:58:08 |
| [slm] can brother bhaloo or someone also give a similar rundown on US-interventions in non-muslim countries; e.g: Cuba, Chile, Bolivia, Panama, Nicaragua, etc. I would appreciate a comprehensive treatment of this subject. maybe someone has web links to this topic. |
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board |