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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| child with non muslim |
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| Stephanie |
| 10/22/03 at 00:29:42 |
| Assalamu Alaikum I'm very happy, no ecstatic to be a part of this community, but there is something that is weighing heavily on my heart. I've already told my family, friends, and coworkers of my conversion. There is just one hurdle left for me and that is to tell the father (and his famiy) of my child that I have converted. (We're not married) I am extremely worried as they tend to be closed minded and sometimes downright racist people, especially Nathan's (my son) dad. Don't get me wrong, they are not religious people. My son's father is an alcoholic, drug user who hasn't set foot in a church for probably 20 years (except for the occasional wedding or funeral). Still, he is going to totally freak out just because it's Islam and he hates anything different than himself. Also, the current anti-islamic climate in this country, with our biased media and God Bless America post 9-11 fervor doesn't help the situation any. Really, I could care less of what they think of me. But I am extremely worried that he might try to take custody of Nathan. Right now we have joint custody; I am the the primary custodian and Mike (dad) has two evenings a week of visitation. In our agreement, it says that both parents have a say in the religious upbringing of Nathan. Therefore, if Mike wants to take him to church, he has that right. I could deal with that, but I don't think I could survive losing my child. Has anyone ever heard of this happening? A muslim losing custody just for being a muslim. After September 11 I did hear about this but I believe the woman wanted to move the child to Saudi Arabia, and the ex was like No Way! Anyway, has anyone revert Bro's or Sis's had to deal with this? Can you offer me any advise on how to break the news? I am getting married soon to a Palestinian man In'shallah so when I tell them of my engagement,which i will do this friday,it would be a good time to tell them of my conversion. Should I be upfront and honest or let them figure it out when they start to see me covered. I've been wearing hijab now regularly. However, whenever I see them I will be on my way to work, waiting tables and won't be wearing a scarve. Next month when i marry I will be quitting my job and will be free to cover all the time. One sister I know suggested I just wait and let them figure it out as not to cause a ruckus and also to be able to enjoy my wedding. much love Allahu Akbar Stephanie |
| Re: child with non muslim |
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| Fozia |
| 10/22/03 at 06:41:00 |
| [slm] Firstly congratulations and welcome. Secondly do you think your ex will listen to you if you sit down and explain to him you've reverted, will he be OK with the news that your marrying (I assume a muslim) and that you're reverting too. I personally would let him know of my approacing marriage and let him work the rest out. I'm sorry I'm not much good at this I'm sure the other br.'s and Sr's will have much better advice to give. Take Care Wasslaam |
| Re: child with non muslim |
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| timbuktu |
| 10/23/03 at 00:08:21 |
| assaalm-o-aalykum, sis Stephanie i took the liberty of asking some american friends about your problem. Here is one answer by someone who i think knows about laws etc. quote: Well, First Off, I Don't Think She Can Lose Custody Of Her Child Because Of Her Religious Beliefs, At least not a mainstream religion like Islam. I could see if she were, say, a Satanist, that might cause her some problems. I'm not sure why she needs to have ANY contact with the parents of her child's father.. She has her own parents and now she is going to have new parents in law... it's really her son who has a relationship with his grandparents. I'm not suggesting she have an uncivil relationship with them, or anything, but she doesn't owe them any kind of explanation about her life. If the FATHER of the child wants to discuss religious matters with her in the context of THEIR CHILD, then that's perfectly acceptable and it seems like both parents should be able to be mature enough to expose their child to their own personal belief system without criticising the other and let the little boy make up his own mind about what he thinks when he gets older. He may shock them both by becoming a Buddhist or something. Anyway, that's my take on it. Establish appropriate boundaries with the family of your child. I should add that my parents are divorced and they didn't have a "relationship" with MY relatives, not theirs, although they liked them and asked about them and such - but they didn't hang out or anything, and they certianly didn't give their former in-laws permission to offer criticism about how they were leading their lives, either overtly or by caring what they thought about anything. I think the hard part will come if her little boy is exposed to criticism about his mother coming from his family. That is something the little boy's father should take up with his family. Hopefully, he is a strong enough and honorable enough person to do so. unquote I hope this helps. If other answers come in, i will let you know. You have to be firm, & if your ex-boyfriend threatens to get custody of the child, tell him firmly that he has no chance, because Islam is a recognised mainstream religion in the US, & he will lose badly. I think you should also contact CAIR at: [center]cair@cair-net.org[/center] i am sure the US law is on your side. after all your son's father is an alcoholic, & a drug user. I don't think he has a chance. may Allah (swt) help you & give you the best in both worlds. aameen |
| 10/23/03 at 08:01:12 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: child with non muslim |
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| timbuktu |
| 10/23/03 at 03:42:54 |
| [slm] & here is a response from a second person. I would like to add that the 1st response was from a mother (major in Political Science) of 2 children & the 2nd is from a male person. quote I'd like to offer, however, that you advise this lady, whenever the subject comes up with those who might be offended, that she can use it as an opportunity to further understanding of Islam and Muslims rather than be afraid of admitting her choice of religion. She should be proud of her choice of religion - she's choosing it because it brings her something (warmth, peace of mind, happiness, what have you...). Be proud of who you are. She doesn't owe the child's father or his parents any explanation - religion is a personal choice. I'd ignore them unless they ask, and if, as she fears, they are upset - it would be a prime opportunity to educate some who might otherwise be prejudiced. Obviously, she is not the kind of person who would decide to 'become a terrorist' (as some who fear Muslims would put it). She could also point out the many Muslims in America and the good they've done. As to losing her child - that WON'T happen over religion. I noticed she had mentioned some generic unbiased fears, which are completely unfounded. Well, having your child taken away is one of them. Of course, she might have to worry if she's planning on moving away from the father - I'm sure she's got some kind of agreement to stay within a certain distance (such as the same county or state) to facilitate visitation. As to her other fears, such as the father denouncing her to the child - that's an issue for the father and his family. If they believe that raising a bitter, hateful child is appropriate, I feel sorry for them. Unfortunately, I also know that in most cases people have children and really shouldn't. This is just something she may have to put up with, although if she wanted to be tough she could make a case to the state department of children and families (or her state's equivalent) that the father is abusing the child (and emotional abuse is what that is), and he can be ordered to take parenting classes that will hopefully correct this. unquote |
| 10/23/03 at 03:54:46 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: child with non muslim |
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| timbuktu |
| 10/23/03 at 06:50:53 |
| [slm], the good & complementary advice keeps pouring in. Here is 3rd one, from a high school graduate just going to enter University: quote: Hearing of situations like this makes me want to be a lawyer! It is totally against the Constitution to take religion into a custody decision.. My strong recommendation to her would be to consult with an attorney before she tells anyone in the family-This would be helpful for a couple of reasons: 1) The lawyer could advise her on her rights and how she can begin to set up a "paper trail" so that she will be prepared in the event of litigation, and 2) By so doing, she would be in an offensive rather than a defensive position. By being proactive, she is likely to feel more confident, which will make the father less likely to try to take advantage of her. In my opinion, she might be better off telling the father and letting him be the one to tell the grandparents. If she tries to take on all three, she will be outnumbered and it might be somewhat overwhelming. She will need lots of support from her community. unquote ---- i think all the three responses are great & complementary. If you can consult a lawyer, it would be very helpful, particularly as a "paper trail" becomes important in litigation. i do hope i did not overstep the limit by asking others, but i did not think there would be enough time to get your permission, post it & get the responses. as it is, i am satisfied with the answers your problem has brought. all the best, & may Allah help you always. |
| 10/24/03 at 00:52:09 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: child with non muslim |
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| timbuktu |
| 10/23/03 at 19:07:17 |
| [slm] 1). I asked a question & got some futher clarifications from writer of response 2 quote "What about marriage, does it nullify previous custody arrangements?" Actually, being married can only help her. The courts like to see a 'family unit'. I've been through this - my wife had a son when I met her, and she was in a bitter custody fight (well, actually a bitter fight also). I was glad I could help her and her son through a tough situation and now they're practically friends. It's so much better for everyone, but especially the child, when you can get along. You also said something about the U.S. constitution - but that has nothing to do with custody. Family matters are generally left up to the states to decide. The only thing I can think of that might be confusing here is the Elian Gonzalez issue. He was the boy whose mother died while they were escaping from Cuba, and later returned to his father in Cuba. The only reason the U.S. government got involved was because it was an international issue involving Cuban citizens. I didn't ask explicitly before, but I hope you gathered from my response that if this lady is considering moving out of the U.S., then she may lose her child. The issue will be the father's visitation rights. Unless some agreement could be worked out with him to allow this, the courts may decide the child would have to stay here. Usually, the custody arrangement spells out where the parties may live, and the rules regarding moving to a distant location (ie - out of the county, state, or country). About marriage - it does not alter any custody arrangements. If she chose to fight for full custody, then it could help her. Also, if she had full custody and could reasonably provide for the father's visitation, the courts would probably allow her to move anywhere in the world. This might involve sending the child back for a few months a year, or something else that would be reasonable and acceptable by the father. Ok, I think that covers it...... Wish her well for me.... unquote 2). there was a discussion on which in-laws were meant. The writer of 1st response wrote: quote As for her new in-laws, I guess I am not a very warm person, but I would still leave it to him (her new husband) to manage his family - unless they re all going to be living under the same roof! Ouch! Particularly when there is conflict between a man's wife and his mother, I think it is the husband's responsibility to make it clear to his mother that he is a grown-up, married man now and she is going to have to learn to respect his wife, or if she can't respect the wife, to keep it to herself. But I think she was talking about having problems with her son's grandparents on his DAD's side - that's how I read it. I believe the father of her child still lives with his parents (drug and alcohol problems, probably exacerbated by his parents not telling him to grow up and get out - but again, I am a cold person ;) , and that she is worried about THEIR take on things. unquote I guess that covers enough & as the man said here, best of wishes. timbuktu |
| 10/24/03 at 00:40:04 |
| timbuktu |
| Re: child with non muslim |
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| Stephanie |
| 10/23/03 at 21:01:08 |
| [wlm] Wow, thanks Timbuktu, that was very nice of you to ask around for me. Some clarifications: No, I am not planning on leaving the country. Yes, I am talking about the parents of the Dad. However, they are not really my fear, they love my son, no, they absolutely adore him, and I can't see them trying to do anything that would turn his life upside down(like taking him from his mother) Still, they are somewhat closed minded, but like I said before I'm not living to please them. As for having contact with them, this is how I had the original custody agreement arranged. I take my son to their house for visitation, then, the Dad goes there to see son. This is how I wanted it, because I didn't want my son exposed to the crap that goes on over at Dad's house(no he doesn't live with the grandparents), not to mention the possibility of any crimes occurring there and police getting involved or something happening to my son, God forbid. This is actually a lot of leverage I have over him because he's afraid I might go to the authorities. When I made this request in the custody agreement he didn't even argue or have any opinion about it at all. In hindsight, it all seems ridiculous. How could a judge grant custody to a man like this? Still, he's threatened me so many times that I am still fearful. I will however take your friend's advice and talk to my lawyer. She is the one who helped me arrange the custody agreement before. I'm sure when he finds out of my conversion, it will just be the same old song; a lot of empty threats, a dog with a big bark and no bite. Thank you for helping me put this into perspective. I still don't know how I will break the news. I'll probably wait awile and let them get used to the idea of the marriage first. I just have to thank Allah that I am away from that life now and on the right path for myself and my son. After reading your posts and making dua, I really do feel a lot more calm about it. Thanks again for helping me gain a better perspective on all of this. Allahu akbar Ma'salaam Stephanie |
| Re: child with non muslim |
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| Anonymous |
| 10/23/03 at 22:31:55 |
| Assalamu alaykum, I think the replies above are great, but just wanted to really encourage you to seek legal advice and to fully reflect on the best way to inform your ex. If you can afford it, pay well for a *good* lawyer. Although in theory, the courts are not to take religion into consideration, there have been several cases in different US states where exactly what Stephanie is fearing has happened--because a mother has converted to Islam, non-Muslim family (ex-husbands, grandparents, etc.) have sued to gain full custody over the children and take them away from their mother because she is Muslim. They have tried to frame their objections in non-religious terms, but ultimately they did not want their child/grandchild raised by a Muslim, and therefore sued for custody. In other words, I don't think your concern is unfounded. Alhamdulillah, I think in all of the cases I have heard about, the mother has kept custody, but in some instances only after protracted legal battles. I have only heard of some cases that have been publicized by CAIR, and I would contact them for further information. Basically, I would take your time, seek legal advice regarding your specific situation (for example,is it possible that your new marriage might provide your husband grounds to modify custody arrangements?), and reflect on the wisest way to proceed (perhaps you should get married first, let your husband see that your marriage is not negatively affecting your child or his relationship with his child, and then take the next step of telling him you have converted?). You know your situation and the people involved the best. Certainly you must tell him at some point, but cover your bases first by proceeding in the best way that you can figure out after a period of reflection and seeking advice. Use your head as well as your heart. I know right after I converted, sometimes emotions ruled when it came to talking to my family about Islam and my conversion and it affected the way I interacted with them. In hindsight, if I had been patient at certain times, or had taken the time to reflect on the way I handled a certain issue, I might have avoided a lot of emotional turmoil in my family. If I was in your shoes I would plan for the worst and be prepared legally, financially, and emotionally for a custody battle but hope for the best and make lots and lots of dua that everything works out fine. If it turns out none of your precautions are needed, alhamdulillah. But if you do have a fight on your hands, you are ready for it and you hit the ground running. I don't mean to scare you, and I don't think you should be scared, you sound like you are in a strong position, and you are also balanced in that you are not restricting your ex-husband's access to his child. take care, and I hope and pray that everything works out well with you and your family, and that you are blessed with happiness in your new marriage. |
| Re: child with non muslim |
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| Mujahideen |
| 10/24/03 at 02:36:38 |
| [slm] I second much of what ‘anonymous’ has posted. Get some good legal advise from a professional – not from your friends (unless they are qualified professionals). Those of us on this board not qualified to give legal advise - should not be doing so. Our poor advise might have very serious legal implications for the sister in the future. A ‘good’ lawyer in my experience is generally an expensive lawyer. Law is a competitive business and generally better lawyers always charge more. I have had a fair bit of experience in hiring lawyers (taxation, real estate, immigration for VISA applications for visiting scholars) and personally if I were in your situation I would hire the most expensive family law lawyer in town. Do not go to a general practice firm but to someone who is a specialist in family law and perhaps custody issues. Explain your situation and ask their advise. Find the money borrow if you have to from friends – it won’t be as expensive as you think. Keep in mind its not like you have to rush off and tell them you have converted right away – take a little time and seek legal and other advise from qualified professionals – not Internet chat boards. CAIR is a good source for general information although I don’t think they would be able to actually represent you in the matter as an agent. I don’t want to scare you but its better to perhaps over-react in this case then under react and have a negative outcome. Maybe you spend some money you did not really have to – but hey its only money. May lots of Dua’ especially in Ramadan when you are breaking your fast and ask Allah to facilitate things for you and make things easy. I’ll remember you in my Dua’ InshAllah. [wlm] |
| Re: child with non muslim |
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| Tesseract |
| 10/24/03 at 12:46:13 |
| Assalamu 'Alaikum, U can also contact Muslim Legal Fund of America (MLFA), they are doing excellent job in dealing with such cases. I recently met Br. Waseem Nasrallah, the Chairman/President of MLFA, may Allah reward him for doing such a good job. Their contact info. is available on their website. They have a toll free no. as well. [url]http://www.muslimlegalfund.org/[/url] They have some top-notch attorneys working for them. I would also suggest that u arrange for an attorney first and then break the news of ur marriage and conversion. May Allah help u and proect u and ur child (Ameen). Wassalam. |
| Re: child with non muslim |
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| Caraj |
| 10/25/03 at 16:02:25 |
| Stephanie, I bet you are really concerned and I would like to give 2 pieces of advice if I may, based on some family court experience I have had over the years. 1) If you haven't started, START NOW, keep a journal. Document carefully anything said and done during visits and/or contacts with your Ex and his parents. make sure you write things the day it is said and document times, day, who and circumstances even the good things. 2) Many people are so very misinformed about Islam. Ignorance breeds fear, fear breeds unrealistic hatred in the biggest way. So when you go to talk to your ex (at any and all times) PLEASE have a witness present. Never speak to him alone anymore and this witness does not mean your prior in laws. I would also have a friend go with you when you drop your child off and pick him up for visitation EACH AND EVERY time from now on. Even if it is just the in-laws, have a witness to any conversations. I know I may sound a bit extreme but trust me please. Have this person go in and witness any and all conversations. Do not just leave them in the car. Oh and I know I said 2 pieces of advice, But I have another, when you go please have information to leave your ex and his parents. May I suggest some papmlets I recieved and I think they are great and I got them from a post mentioning a web site here in Jannah.org Go to www.WhyIslam.org They say to expect a 1 to 3 week mailing time I got mine in less than two weeks, maybe you can wait till these come to have this talk. The pamplets are free and you can even call and express a hurried need. Some I recommend are titled About Islam explained Womens role in Islam A pamplet about Hajib and many more, request at least 3 copies, one for the ex, one for the in-laws and one to keep on hand. Also document what was said and the info about you providing info on your beliefs in this journal you need to keep. Later if needed in a court it shows you respected your son's father and grandparents by keeping them informed. I wish you well. And please..... document everything. |
| :-*Re: child with non muslim |
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| Caraj |
| 11/03/03 at 00:43:15 |
| Not trying to be noisy but you've been on my mind and heart. How is it going? Did you have the talk? Just a little sisterly concern :-* |
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