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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| How does one reply to, Where is proof Allah exist |
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| Caraj |
| 11/02/03 at 01:16:03 |
| My husband and I did a lot of driving this past week and he knows I was fasting. I decided with him being agnostic it was time for that, 'Don't you ever wonder what will happen to you when you die?' and ' How could ANYONE not believe in God ' :o Well it was time for THAT conversation again ;) I mean it is so shocking to me in my mind and heart anyone could doubt God exists. Actually it is incredibly shocking to me. His question was, no he does not think or worry about what will happen to him after he dies and "WHERE'S the proof God exists?" I have no idea how to answer such a question. I did however tell him about our wonderful world and even the way our own bodies work and what wonderful engineering, that we did not come from fish or apes and .........well you all get the idea. How does one answer such a question??? I'm at a loss for words as I could never doubt. Thank you for any and all responses. Hubby knows I am posting this and says he will read any posts of anyone wanting to offer proof God exists. |
| Re: How does one reply to, Where is proof Allah ex |
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| WhiteSomali |
| 11/02/03 at 01:20:21 |
There's a very good book called "A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam." The whole first chapter of this book briefly explains the miracles of the Qu'ran and why it was sent to us from God. So if the Qu'ran was sent to us from God, he must exist. In fact, the book is available on line so here's your proof ;D [url]http://www.islam-guide.com/[/url] Don't worry, it's not horribly long. It's actually brief and to the point. ;D |
| Re: How does one reply to, Where is proof Allah ex |
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| yumna |
| 11/02/03 at 07:43:01 |
| [slm]oo azziaza its ok ! ..abt the proof that Allah exist ...its every where how is this gravity how r these trees growin how is the wind blowin ...everywhere there is proof an proof ... :-[.well since i m not in ur shoes at the moment so can't say how well u can explain ....sorry.... |
| Re: How does one reply to, Where is proof Allah ex |
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| bhaloo |
| 11/02/03 at 10:08:24 |
| [slm] [quote] I mean it is so shocking to me in my mind and heart anyone could doubt God exists. Actually it is incredibly shocking to me. [/quote] Its so shocking to me as well. There's so many ways to approach this, and it depends on one's level of knowledge and understanding. I mean just look around us and see all these things we have in this world. Where did they come from? Isn't it one of the laws of physics that matter is neither created or destroyed? Where did all of it come from? Someone must have created all of this. And that Someone is God. I'd start of with that path and then based on their answer I'd proceed with some other things, mostly from a scientific approach. This is an article I sent out some time back, that kinda addresses the question. Once, a Bedouin was asked what made an unsophisticated man like him believe in Allah. Bedouin: "Do you see these marks in the sand?" Man: "Yes." Bedouin: "What do they tell you?" Man: "A camel went by." Bedouin: "Did you see the camel?" Man: "No, but these footprints in the sand suggest that a camel made them." Bedouin: "Do you see these mountains?" Man: "Yes." Bedouin: "They are indicative to me that Allah made them." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Once Khalifa Haroon Rasheed asked Imam Malik: "What is the evidence (daleel) pointing to the existence of Allah (S.W.T.)?" Imam Malik replied: "Difference in languages, difference in pitches of voice, difference in singing are proof that Allah (S.W.T.) exists!" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The same question was asked, by an atheist, of Imam Abu Hanifa and he replied, "Forget it! At the moment, I am busy thinking about this ship. People tell me there is a big ship, it contains different goods on board. There is no one to steer it, no one maintaining it. Yet, this ship keeps going back and forth; it even traverses big waves on the oceans; it stops at the locations that it is supposed to stop at; it continues in the direction that it is supposed to head. This ship has no captain and no one planning its trips." The atheist who posed the question interrupted and exclaimed, "What kind of strange and silly thought is this? How can any intelligent person think that some thing like this can occur?" Imam Abu Hanifa said, "I feel sorry about your state! You cannot imagine one ship running without some one looking after its affairs. Yet you think that for this whole world, which runs exactly and precisely, there is no one who looks after it, and no one owns it." Hearing the reply, the atheist was left speechless but he found out more about Haqq (The Truth) and proclaimed Islam. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Imam Shaa'fi replied to the question in the following way, "The leaves of Toot (berries) are all but one. Each leaf tastes exactly the same. Insects, honey bees, cows, goats, and deer live off of it. After eating these the insects produce silk; bees produce honey; deer give musk (a special kind of scent), cows and goats deliver off-springs. Is this not clear evidence that one kind of leaf has so many qualities, and who created these qualities? It is the Khaliq (Creator) who we call Allah (S.W.T.) Who is the Inventor and the Creator." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal reflected on the question in the following way. He said, "There is an incredibly strong fort, it has no doors, there is no way to get in. In fact, there is not even a hole in it. From outside it glows like the moon and from inside it shimmers like gold. It is sealed from all sides, matter of fact it is air tight. Suddenly one of its doors breaks down, a living thing with eyes and ears, a beautiful looking animal appears yelling and wandering all over. So is not there a creator who made it possible for life to take place in this secured and closed fort? And is not this Creator better than humans? This Creator has no limit." Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal was referring to an egg which is closed from all sides but Allah (S.W.T.) The Khaliq (Creator) puts life in it and a chick pops out. |
| Re: How does one reply to, Where is proof Allah ex |
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| Nabila |
| 11/02/03 at 11:15:15 |
| [slm] Where's the proof God *doesnt* exist? :D I would have thought that the pro-God argument would outweigh the anti-God argument, if you get my drift. Liked Bhaloo's reply - I think save that :) Jazaakhallaah for that. ma asalaamah and take care |
| Re: How does one reply to, Where is proof Allah ex |
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| Tesseract |
| 11/02/03 at 16:13:10 |
| Salaam, There is enough proof in Qur'an itself that God exists. God (Allah) sent the Qur'an for the whole mankind, and that includes agnostics, atheists, monotheists, polythesits, doctors, engineers, Ph.Ds, businessmen whatever you are. There are many things humans have not seen, but there are *signs* that suggest their presence. Has anyone seen Wind? But when it blows, u can see the dust blowing, or the trees/leaves moving. Those are signs of its presence. U get ill, but have u ever seen the *disease* itself. Its again those *signs* and symptoms that make u go to the doctor. Back in school days, I was always fascinated by this science, the atoms and molecules, and its structure that they used to teach us. I, for some reason had this concept in my mind that humans have *seen* electrons, probably under a microscope or something, and one day, out of curiosity and ignorance, I told my Chemistry teacher to show me an electron under a microscope. He laughed hard and told me no one has seen an electron, its only through *experiments* they have compelling evidence that there is *something* that exists and was named atom. So, all these Bohr's theories and Rutherford's theories and what not are based on something *unseen*, SubhanAllah. Humans have signs within their ownselves. Tell us who decided for u to be a male or female? Who even decided u should be born a human and not an animal? And who perfected you if u don't have any disease or who decided for you to be ill if you have any disability? Here are some verses from Qur'an that come to my mind right now, although there are many more, and Muslims/Non Muslims alike need to read as much as possible. We need to gain knowledge to understand what/who God is. The examples given by the famous 4 Imams, posted by bhaloo, are somehow linked with the following verses: Chapter 21, verses 30 to 35: Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? And We have placed on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with them, and We placed therein broad highways for them to pass through, that they may be guided And We have made the heaven a roof, safe and well guarded. Yet they turn away from its signs (i.e. sun, moon, winds, clouds, etc.). And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating. And We granted not to any human being immortality before you (O Muhammad ), then if you die, would they live forever? Everyone is going to taste death, and We shall make a trial of you with evil and with good, and to Us you will be returned Addressing the issue of Allah's Oneness (Although, the verse may not make sense for some, but its Tafseer i-e detailed explanation is very convincing) : Chapter 21, verse 22: Had there been therein (in the heavens and the earth) gods besides Allah, then verily both would have been ruined. Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne, (High is He) above what they attribute to Him! Chapter 23, verses 12-22: And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth). 13 Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge) (and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman). 14 Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators. 15 After that, surely, you will die. 16 Then (again), surely, you will be resurrected on the Day of Resurrection. 17 And indeed We have created above you seven heavens (one over the other), and We are never unaware of the creation. 18 And We sent down from the sky water (rain) in (due) measure, and We gave it lodging in the earth, and verily, We are Able to take it away. 19 Then We brought forth for you therewith gardens of date-palms and grapes, wherein is much fruit for you, and whereof you eat. 20 And a tree (olive) that springs forth from Mount Sinai, that grows oil, and (it is a) relish for the eaters. 21 And Verily! In the cattle there is indeed a lesson for you. We give you to drink (milk) of that which is in their bellies. And there are, in them, numerous (other) benefits for you, and of them you eat. 22 And on them, and on ships you are carried. Chapter 30, verses 19 to 29: He brings out the living from the dead, and brings out the dead from the living. And He revives the earth after its death. And thus shall you be brought out (resurrected). 20 And among His Signs is this, that He created you (Adam) from dust, and then [Hawwa' (Eve) from Adam's rib, and then his offspring from the semen, and], - behold you are human beings scattered! 21 And among His Signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them, and He has put between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect. 22 And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge. 23 And among His Signs is the sleep that you take by night and by day, and your seeking of His Bounty. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who listen. 24 And among His Signs is that He shows you the lightning, by way of fear and hope, and He sends down water (rain) from the sky, and therewith revives the earth after its death. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who understand. 25 And among His Signs is that the heaven and the earth stand by His Command, then afterwards when He will call you by single call, behold, you will come out from the earth (i.e from your graves for reckoning and recompense). 26 To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are obedient to Him. 27 And He it is Who originates the creation, then will repeat it (after it has been perished), and this is easier for Him. His is the highest description (i.e. none has the right to be worshipped but He, and there is nothing comparable unto Him) in the heavens and in the earth. And He is the AllMighty, the AllWise. 28 He sets forth for you a parable from your ownselves, - Do you have partners among those whom your right hands possess (i.e your slaves) to share as equals in the wealth We have bestowed on you? Whom you fear as you fear each other? Thus do We explain the signs in detail to a people who have sense . 29 Nay, but those who do wrong follow their own lusts without knowledge, Then who will guide him whom Allah has sent astray? And for such there will be no helpers. Allahu Ta'ala A'lam ( Allah knows Best). |
| Re: How does one reply to, Where is proof Allah ex |
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| Nomi |
| 11/03/03 at 01:02:11 |
Does God exist ? Lets assume we are passing through a jungle and come across a hut, i start insisting that no one made it, obviously you'll differ and say that there has to be someone who made it....... So if a silly old hut cant be there on its own then how can this universe be? How will Satan be punished ? Satan is made up of fire then how can hellfire be a punishment for him ??? um... we are made up of clay, what'll happen if someone hits us hard with a hardened mud-ball ? ;D Bro Arshad's post worths re-reading too... |
| Re: How does one reply to, Where is proof Allah ex |
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| charlie |
| 11/03/03 at 03:28:23 |
| i appreciate all the replies, but as i told my wife, the replies all say the same thing and i am still no closer to believing that god does exist. i do not critisize anyone believing that god does exist, my wife asked me have i ever thought of where i came from? i have always wondered where everything come from but there is only theory writen in books and on scrolls but still no real proof. i have always believed that if i see it or feel it then i believe it, this may not make sense to some because they will say where does the wind come from or the rain? from watching the weather channel i could tell you ;D maybe i will never know, it is said that when you die you go to heaven if you are saved (except god as your savior) or go to hell if you dont. some say if you have a good heart and do good deeds but you do not believe in god that you can still go to heaven because god wants us to be good to each other. if god wanted everyone to believe in him then why do we have the choice to believe or not? people praise in different ways, some at church and some at home. some go to temples, some have small shrines some say they just talk when they get the urge to. so is there a wrong way or a right way to worship god? does it make you a bad person if you dont praise or believe? when i was young my father always made me go to church every sunday, it was a cathalic church, i really dont know the difference between any religion, they all have their own ways of worshiping thats all i know. maybe i will never believe or maybe i do and just dont know it. again thank you for your replies |
| Re: How does one reply to, Where is proof Allah ex |
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| faith |
| 11/03/03 at 03:52:29 |
| [slm] I just read Charlie's replies on why he doesnt believe. I have the impression, from previous postings, that he works at sea, correct me if I am wrong. So, I thought I'd include something that may be revelent to Charlie. Anyway, here is an excerpt from The Amazing Qur'an by Gary Miller http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/quran/quran-amazing.html Some years ago, the story came to us in Toronto about a man who was in the merchant marine and made his living on the sea. A Muslim gave him a translation of the Qur'an to read. The merchant marine knew nothing about the history of Islam but was interested in reading the Qur'an. When he finished reading it, he brought it back to the Muslim and asked, "This Muhammed, was he a sailor?" He was impressed at how accurately the Qur'an describes a storm on a sea. When he was told, "No as a matter of fact, Muhammed lived in the desert," that was enough for him. He embraced Islam on the spot. He was so impressed with the Qur'an's description because he had been in a storm on the sea, and he knew that whoever had written that description had also been in a storm on the sea. The description of "a wave, over it a wave, over it clouds" was not what someone imagining a storm on a sea to be like would have written; rather, it was written by someone who knew what a storm on the sea was like. This is one example of how the Qur'an is not tied to a certain place and time. Certainly, the scientific ideas expressed in it also do not seem to originate from the desert fourteen centuries ago. .... Certainly, one could continue on and on with this example, drawing up longer and longer list of good guesses; and of course, the odds would become higher and higher with each increase of subjects about which one could guess. But what no one can deny is the following; the odds that Mohammed an illiterate, guessed correctly about thousands and thousands of subjects, never once making a mistake, are so high that any theory of his authorship of the Qur'an must be completely dismissed - even by the most hostile enemies of Islam! Indeed, the Qur'an expects this kind of challenge. Undoubtedly, if one said to someone upon entering a foreign land, "I know your father. I have met him," probably the man from that land would doubt the newcomer's word, saying, "You have just come here. How could you know my father?" As a result, he would question him, "Tell me, is my father tall, short, dark, fair? What is he like?" Of course, if the visitor continued answering all of the questions correctly, the skeptic would have no choice but to say, "I guess you do know my father. I don't know how you know him, but I guess you do!" The situation is the same with the Qur'an. It states that it originates from the One who created everything. So everyone has the right to say, "Convince me! If the author of this book really originated life and everything in the heavens and on the earth, then He should know about this, about that, and so on." And inevitably, after researching the Qur'an, everyone will discover the same truths. Additionally, we all know something for sure: we do not all have to be experts to verify what the Qur'an affirms. One's iman (faith) grows as one continues to check and confirm the truths contained in the Qur'an. And one is supposed to do so all of his life. May God (Allah) guide everyone close to the truth. |
| Re: How does one reply to, Where is proof Allah ex |
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| faith |
| 11/03/03 at 04:21:22 |
| [slm] I found something interesting, though its a bit long... ;D Religion and the Scientist ...seated side by side, two gentlemen from two different world... And there they were, on a flight from Cape Town to Durban, seated side by side, two gentlemen from two different worlds.......After the formalities were covered, the conversation continued........ Bob: I don't believe in God, but rather in science and technology, something tangible you see, but if you can prove to me scientifically that God does exist then I would consider such a thought. Yunus: Okay, you being interested in technology, please answer this question......with regard to an advanced machine or electronic device, who would be the one to know the most about its mechanism or functioning? Bob: Well, perhaps the person who has invented or manufactured such a machine. Yunus: Can we agree that it is the maker or creator of the product who would know every-thing there is to know about the product. Bob: I don't see why not, it sounds reasonable. Yunus: Being knowledgeable in these matters, the next question I'd like to ask you is, Just how did the world or the universe come into existence? Bob: According to recent scientific research, the whole universe was one gigantic mass, which scientists call the primary Nebula, they tell us that it was a cosmic explosion or a secondary explosion that gave rise to the sun, the stars, the planets and even the Earth we live on. Yunus: Is this what you believe? Bob: Yes of course, these are established facts based on scientific proofs. In fact, this idea was realised in 1973 and termed the 'BIG BANG' theory. Yunus: I see, well I have a surprise for you....In the Holy Quraan, chapter 21, verse 30 says. "Do the disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then I split them apart". Here we can see that the Holy Quraan is speaking about this 'BIG BANG' theory and let me tell you that the Holy Quraan was revealed over 1400 years ago. Bob: I have heard about the Quraan, but can you refresh my memory. Yunus: Sure, the Muslim believes the Quraan to be the word of God, pure and unadulterated which was revealed verbally to the Prophet _____ of Islam, Mohammed, Peace be upon him, through the agency of the Angel Gabriel. The Holy Quraan was completed over a period of 23 years, that is over the prophetic life of the Prophet _____________ of Islam. Bob: Are you sure that the Quraan is over 14 centuries old and secondly, that the Quraan has not been changed. Yunus: Absolutely, it is a historical fact that the Holy Quraan was completed in the seventh century and has remained unchanged ever since. Historians, whether friends or foes to Islam, testify to this. Bob: Well then, perhaps it's a guess. Yunus:.....What does science say about the shape of the Earth ? Bob: Previously, Man thought that the Earth was flat, until Sir Frances Drake in 1607 finally proved it to be spherical. Today, the term Geoid is used to describe this spherical shape. Yunus: Amazingly the Holy Quraan in chapter 31, verse 29 says, "Have you not seen how God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night." The use of the word merges emphasizes a slow gradual change, and this is not possible if the earth is flat. Bob: Go on. Yunus: Further in chapter 39, verse 5, it says, "He coils the night upon the day and he coils the day upon the night." The word used in the original arabic text is "Kaw'wara" which means coils or winds, the significance of this verb is that you usually coil something around a rather spherical object. You say that this fact was discovered recently, well relatively recently, who could have mentioned this in the Holy Quraan over 1400 years ago ? Bob: I'm not convinced. Yunus: Fine, tell me where the light of the Moon comes from? Bob: Centuries ago people thought that the Moon was a miniature version of the Sun and that both emitted their own light, but recently studies confirmed that the Moon reflected the Sun's light. Yunus: The Holy Quraan in chapter 25, verse 61 mentions, "Blessed is the one who placed the constellations in the Heaven and placed therein a lamp and a Moon reflecting light." Here the Sun is referred to as a lamp for it has its own illumination, while the Moon is said to have reflected light or borrowed light, meaning not its own. Bob: Its probably conjecture...guesswork. Yunus: For the sake of a discussion I won't argue. Anyway, let us proceed....... When I was in school in the 80's, my teacher told me that the Sun remains stationary whilst the planets although rotating around their axes do revolve around the Sun as well. Bob: Is that what your Quraan says, that the Sun is stationary....Ha! Yunus: No, the Holy Quraan does not say this. This is what I learned in school. Bob: Today, science has advanced. We have come to know that the Sun does in fact revolve around its own axis. You see, the Sun if observed with the apppropriate scientific apparatus reveals to possess the "Black spots". Continuous observation shows that these black spots take 25 days to complete a revolution. Therefore we conclude that the Sun rotates and that it takes approximately 25 days to complete one full rotation around its axis. Yunus: Well, this is nothing new to the muslim for it is revealed in the Holy Quraan in chapter 21, verse 33, "(God is) the One who created the night, the day, the Sun and the Moon, each one spinning around its own axis (travelling in an orbit)". Here it is evident that the Sun and the Moon both rotate and further the celestial law of orbital movement is made mention of. You tell me who could have mentioned these scientific facts in the Holy Quraan which you say was discovered recently by your scientists ? Before you answer that question, tell me......is there a difference between a star and a planet? Bob: Yes, today we know that stars are heavenly bodies like the Sun in that they produce their own light, while planets on the other hand, do not produce their own light....like the earth on which we live. Yunus: The Holy Quraan mentions scientific facts not only in the field of astronomy. Bob: I'm listening. Yunus: In several verses of the Holy Quraan the details of the water cycle is mentioned. It explains that the water from the earth and ground rises up and forms clouds .............. these clouds condense, there is lightning and rain falls from the clouds. This is evident from the following quotations ...........chapter 39, verse 21, "Have you not seen that Allah sent rain down from the sky and caused it to penetrate the ground, and come forth as springs.......", In chapter 23, verse 18, "We sent down water from the sky measure and lodged it in the ground and we certainly are able to withdraw it", and also in chapter 24, verse 43, "Have you not seen that God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them a heap. And you see rain drops falling from the midst of it ........" Bob: According to my knowledge, the first coherent account of the water cycle was presented by Bernard Palissy in 1580. Yunus: This is the exact distinction that the Holy Quraan makes between stars and planets. In chapter 86, verse 1-3, "By the sky and the night visitor, who will tell you what the night visitor is, the star of piercing brightness", which obviously refer to the stars. The planets are described as ornaments in chapter 37, verse 6, as it reads, "We have indeed adorned the lowest heaven with ornaments, the planets". Bob: ............................... Hmmmmmm.........................It is no secret that the Arabs were advanced in the field of astronomy, and perhaps it was these learned astronomers that passed their findings to the Prophet _____________. Yunus: I do agree that the Arabs were advanced in astronomy, but I'm afraid that you have the order or sequence of events incorrect. Bob: What do you mean?! Yunus: Let me remind you that the Holy Quraan was revealed centuries before the Arabs became advanced in this field of astronomy, so it was the Arabs who learnt about astronomy from the Quraan and most definitely not vice versa. The Holy Quraan in chapter 30, verse 48 mentions that, "God is the one who sends forth the winds which raised up the clouds. He spreads them in the sky as he wills and breaks them into fragments. Then you see rain drops issuing from within them.....". While on the topic of Geography, I am sure you understand what is meant by the term "Folding". Bob: Yes, you see.... the crust of the earth is relatively thin and mountain ranges due to the phenomenon of folding provides stability for the earth. Yunus: The Holy Quraan in chapter 78, verse 6-7 gives us an indication of the very same phenomenon as it says, "Have we not made the earth an expanse and the mountains stakes". Here the word "stakes" is synonymous with the word pegs as in holding the earth in place. Further the first part of this verse shows us that the earth is not flat for it is an expanse ..... meaning that you can walk and walk without falling off. The former idea is clarified in chapter 21, verse 31....."We placed the ground (mountains) standing firm so that it does not shake with them". Here we are told that mountains allow for the maintenance of the earths stability by preventing the earth's shape to change in such a way so as to cause it to move out of its orbit. Permit me to go on ........scientists pointed out recently that salt water and fresh water do not mix.......is that correct ? Bob: That is correct.....this phenomenon is observed at various locations......for example the region where the Nile river meets with the Mediterranean sea and more especially in the Gulf stream where these two bodies of water flow together for thousands of kilometres. Yunus: In chapter 25, verse 53 it reads, ....... "God is the one that has let free two seas, one is sweet and palatable and the other is salty and bitter. He placed an unseen barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to pass". A similar message is given in chapter 55, verses 19 and 20, "He has loosed the two seas. They meet together. Between them there is an unseen barrier which they do not transgress........" Bob: Maybe some Arabs whist diving or swimming made such an observation. Yunus: Unlikely, what you fail to realize is that the Holy Quraan too testifies that it is an unseen barrier and therefore it could not and still cannot be observed. Bob: I see..... according to Darwinism and the theory of evolution, it is claimed that all life began in the sea or oceans.........can you tell me what does your Quraan say about this.....if anything at all. Yunus: Yes, but first tell me just why does this theory have such a conclusion.....that life began in the Oceans.... Bob: Well, one of the reasons is that the chemical make-up or composition of human and animal life shows that water is the chief constituent. In fact between 50 and 90 %. Yunus: In chapter 21, verse 30, it also says.............."And We made every living thing from water. Will they still not believe". Can you imagine that in the deserts of Arabia, where there is obviously a scarcity of water, who would have guessed that not only man but every living thing is made from water. Bob: I am aware that Cytoplasm, the main constituent of the cell is composed of approximately eighty percent water and that every living creature is of fifty or ninety percent water. Yunus: Who could have mentioned these facts in the Quraan over 1400 years ago ?...there are over hundreds of facts in the Holy Quraan that modern science cannot find fault with today. On the topic of theories .......Can you explain to me just what is meant by the theory of drifting continents. Bob: Sure, all our continents were at one time parts of one consolidated land mass, then following an explosion, they were scattered or rather pushed away all over the surface of the earth. Therefore if you look carefully at the world map, you would see for example that the East coast of South America would fit neatly against the West coast of Africa. Yunus: A similar idea is reflected in the Holy Quraan in the chapter 79, verse 30, "and the earth He extended after that and then drew from it water and pastures". It says that the Earth passed through a stage when God had caused the land masses to drift apart. Bob: Are you using scientific knowledge to prove the Quraan ? Yunus: No, the Quraan is not a book of science but rather a book of signs. In fact, it has over 6000 signs (verses) out of which 1000 of these deal with scientific knowledge. I am not using science to prove something correct, you need a yardstick or knowledge that is absolute, something ultimate..... Yunus: To the educated men like yourself, those that do not believe in God, science is generally your yardstick.....but to the Muslim, the Holy Quraan is our ultimate yardstick....the Quraan is also referred to as the "Furqaan" which is the arabic word meaning, the criterion between that which is right and that which is wrong. Therefore I am using your yardstick 'science' to prove to you what is said in the Holy Quraan. What your yardstick has said in relatively recent times ...... mine has said 14 centuries ago. Can we agree, therefore, that the Quraan is superior to science and that the Quraan is the ultimate yardstick. Bob: Tell me more. Yunus: The Quraan says in chapter 20, verse 53, "(God is the one) who sent down rain from the sky and with it brought forth a variety of plants in pairs". Here the Holy Quraan mentions a scientific fact which was discovered much later in history ..... that is .......the plant kingdom too has male and female types. This is also echoed in chapter 13, verse 3, "...........and of all fruits (God) placed on the earth two pairs ......." Yunus: A branch of the field of Zoology has recently pointed out that there exists various social dynamics in the animal world. The Holy Quraan tells us the same, that the animals and birds live in communities in chapter 6, verse 38, "There is no animal on earth, no bird which flies on wings, that (does not belong to) communities like you .....". Yunus: If I tell you that the Holy Quraan tells us of ants talking to one another, you will probably laugh, but the branch of Zoology that I am telling you about, has found the animal or insect which closely resembles the dynamics of the human, is the ant ....... for apart from an extremely 'advanced' system of communication (as is mentioned in the Holy Quraan, chapter 27, verse 18), They ..... the ants bury the dead and can have what can be said to be an equivalent of a market place. Bob: Perhaps your Prophet _____________ was a very observant man who made notes of them. Yunus: First I would like to inform you that history years witness that the Prophet _____________ of Islam was an illiterate man in that he had no formal schooling and therefore could not read nor write. In fact at that time a great majority of Arabs were illiterate with only a negligible number who were literate. Nonetheless, it is also mentioned that it is the female bee that collects honey ........ Do you think that anybody could be so observant as to pick this up? You have just reminded me about something even more significant; in chapter 16, verse 69, it reads, "...... from their (bees) bodies comes a liquor of different colours wherein is a remedy for men." Today the medical scientist tell us that there are antiseptic qualities and applications of honey. Furthermore, I believe that it is used in the treatment of various allergies. Bob: No wonder the Russian soldiers used to apply honey on their wounds. Yes, and as a result, the wounds left very little scar tissue. Yunus: In chapter 16, verse 66, the Holy Quraan described blood circulation with regard to the production of milk in the cow ....... a thousand years before William Harvey made it famous to the western world. Let us examine the above mentioned reference, "Verily, in cattle too is a lesson for you, we give to you to drink of what is in their bodies, coming from a conjugation between the contents of the intestine and the blood, a milk, pure and pleasant for those who drink it." Bob: Tell me ...... what does the Quraan say about human beings? Yunus: This question calls for a dissertation, for the Quraan deals with humans from before the time of conception until after death. .....But will you accept a brief exposition on some of the human embryo logical data or proofs presented in the Quraan? Bob: Please go on. This is interesting. Yunus: We know that after fertilization, the egg or ovum descends from the fallopian tube to lodge itself inside the uterus for gestation. This is described in chapter 22, verse 5, ".... We cause whom we will to rest in the womb for an appointed term......". As you know, there are structures or elongations from the egg which develops to draw nourishment from the uterus which is necessary for growth. These structural formations make the egg or rather the zygote seem to be literally clinging to the uterus ....... this, doubtedly, is a scientific discovery of modern times for the western world. Did you know this appearance of clinging is described five times in the Holy Quraan. For example, in chapter 96, verses 1 & 2, "Read, in the name of your Lord who fashioned man from something which clings". Similar ideas are found in chapter 22, verse 5 - chapter 23, verse 14 and chapters 40 & 75. Furthermore, foetal growth is described in great detail in chapter 23, verse 14, with regard to the development of the skeleton. "Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; Then made that clot into a lump (foetus); then We made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones with flesh ............" ........ the verse goes on further in this manner of description. Also with regard to the order or sequence of the senses, the Holy Quraan in chapter 32, verse 9 says, "......... He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and of sight........". Today, medical cience cannot argue with this sequence development of the senses in the foetus for it confirms that the development of hearing is completed by five months of pregnancy and that the eye is split open by the seventh month of pregnancy. These facts and more have been brought to light by the western world as late as 1940. Furthermore, Professor Keith More, an embryologist at the university of Toronto in Canada, was asked to make a comparative study of the Embryo logical data in the Holy Quraan with that of modern scientific knowledge and he responded as follows, "The 1300 year old Quraan contains messages so accurate about embryonic development that muslims can reasonably believe them to be from God." Bob: If this is true then how come it has not been recorded in the media? Yunus: But it was ....... check the archives ......for example ....... the citizen, a Canadian Newspaper dated 22 November 1984, under the heading "Ancient Holy Book 1300 years ahead of its time". Or the times of India, New Delhi ...... dated 10 December 1984 under the caption "Koran scores over modern sciences." Bob: This is really fascinating......don't stop..........continue.... Yunus: At this point I am reminded of a very powerful verse of the Holy Quraan which appears in chapter 41, verse 53, "Soon shall we show them our signs in the (furthest) regions of the earth , and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the truth......". Yunus: The holy Quraan even speaks about diabetics. Bob: What do you mean? Yunus: You see, certain foodstuffs are declared unfit for human consumption and are therefore prohibited. Bob: While we are on the topic of food ....... tell me why is it that a muslim is very particular about the words Halaal and Haraam ...... What do they mean? Yunus: That which is permissible is termed Halaal and that which is not permissible is termed Haraam and it is the Quraan which draws the distinction between the two. Bob: Can you give me an example ? Yunus: Yes, Islam has prohibited blood of any type. You will agree that a chemical analysis of blood shows that it contains an abundance of uric acid, a chemical substance which can be injurious to human health. Bob: You're right about the toxic nature of uric acid, in the human being it is excreted as a waste product....... in fact we are told that 98% of the bodies uric acid is extracted from the blood by the kidneys and removed through urination. Yunus: Now I think that you'll appreciate the special prescribed method of animal slaughter in Islam. Bob: What do you mean ? Yunus: You see.....the wielder of the knife, whilst taking the name of the Almighty, makes an incision through the jugular veins, leaving all other veins of the neck intact. Bob: I see.....this causes the death of the animal by a total loss of blood from the body, rather than an injury to any vital organ. Yunus: Yes, were the organs, example the heart, the liver, or the brain crippled or damaged, the animal could die immediately and its blood would congeal in its veins and would eventually permeate (spread throughout) the flesh. This implies that the animal flesh would be permeated and contaminated with uric acid and therefore very poisonous ...... only today did our dietitians realise such a thing. Bob: Again, while on the topic of food........ Why do Muslims condemn the eating of pork or ham or any foods related to pigs or swine. Yunus: Actually, apart from the Quraan prohibiting the consumption of pig flesh, ......in fact the Bible too in Leviticus chapter 11, verse 8, .....regarding swine it says, "of their flesh (of the swine) shall you not eat, and of their carcase you shall not touch; they are unclean to you." Further, did you know that a pig cannot be slaughtered at the neck for it does not have a neck ..........that is according to its natural anatomy. A Muslim reasons that if the pig was to be slaughtered and fit for human consumption the creator would have provided it with a neck. Nonetheless, ........all that aside, I am sure you are well informed about the harmful effects of the consumption of pork, in any form, be it pork chops ...... ham ...... bacon....... Bob: The medical sciences find that there is a risk for various diseases as the pig is found to be a host for many parasites and potential diseases. Yunus: Yes, even apart from that ....as we talked about uric acid content in the blood.....it is important to note that the pig's biochemistry excretes only 2% of its total uric acid content...... the remaining 98% remains as an integral part of the body. This explains the high rate of Rheumatism found in those who consume pork. Bob: Let's fasten our seatbelts ......I think we are going to land shortly .... I guess its true - time does fly when you're having fun. I've never heard these arguments before and I'd like to hear more.......just what is the basic theme of the Holy Quraan anyway ? Yunus: The basic theme is of salvation, in this life and in the life hereafter..... it does not fall into the category of any known arts or sciences of the world, but since it addresses itself to mankind, it touches on almost all the disciplines which concern Him. Thus the Quraan surprisingly encompassed truths which were to be discovered and confirmed much later as our discussion has shown. Yunus: This reminds me of the wise words of Sir Francis, who said, "It is a little knowledge of science that makes you an Atheist, and it is an in-depth study of science that makes you a believer in God Almighty". Thereafter nobody said a word ........they each sat back and looked forward waiting for touch down......... http://www.themodernreligion.com/science_religion.htm |
| Re: How does one reply to, Where is proof Allah ex |
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| lucid9 |
| 11/03/03 at 05:15:09 |
| [slm] Some reasons on general grounds: (1) How would you [i] feel [/i] or [i] see [/i] God? God does not have a physical presence which you can bounce photons off to "see" him. God is not bound by our 3 spatial dimensions and cannot be localized in space which is what would be needed to "see/feel" him (i.e. by bouncing photons off him.) (2) The universe is very well tailored for life. A generic universe will either collapse or expand so fast that no stars will form and life will be impossible. That is why some speculative physicists talk of multiverses -- i.e. there are a zillion different universes and hence it is not surprisising that there exists one in which life is possible. Happily and luckily we live in that one universe where life is possible. Doesn't that sound contrived?? (3) Causality is extremely important in physics. For every reaction there is a cause. Applied to the universe -- this means that something must have started the universe. This is called the first mover paradox. Some people try to use the randomness of quantum mechanics so say the universe suddenly appeared from the vacuum. But this doesn't solve the problem because -- you still have to have a vacuum for the universe to tunnel from/or pop out of. (The vacuum is the physics definition of the lowest energy state of the universe.) Theists says that you cannot get around this problem and that the First Mover, the agent responsible for the universe, is what is commonly called God. (4) The universe is comprehensible. The fact that the universe is orderly, proceeds by set laws and amenable to mathematical analysis is an astounding fact not easily understood by laymen. But, the universe could easily have been very different -- totally random, with no semblence of order -- with things happening randomly. We typically say that the latter is impossible because we know that everything follows certain rules or laws. That notion of orderliness implies a certain intelligence and organizing agent -- that is what we call God and what many agnostic scientists also call God. I.e. you cannot get around the fact that there is an organizing principle. (5) Why is it that we are just smart enough to be able to understand the universe? Suppose we were just a bit stupider -- like say Neandrathals. We would then have no hope of understanding mathematics and the organizing rules (the mathematical laws of the universe). But amazingly we do. This happy coincidence seems to imply that we are extremely special -- the only beings on earth able to fathom the laws of the universe -- and perhaps the only beings in this entire universe able to appreciate its workings and thus appreciate the existence of God. Essentially, if you don't want to believe in God you have to believe in a set of fantastically unlikely coincidences. So which is more plausible? Believing in something like an organizing principle behind the universe (God) or believing in lots of unlikely coincidences? Some religious reasons: (1) The personality of the prophet. See my evolving thread on this in the al-taqwa folder (called proofs of islam). He was uniquely honest, sane, and a saint. And he came forth with a book of exquisite beauty, eloquence and everlasting value. If one studies his life and the nature of the quran it is hard to believe that he was an imposter and not what he claimed to be -- a humble prophet of God. (2) The quran: its unique language, its unlikeness to human speech, and its message. Most people who hear the quran and read it, whether they are athiests/agnostics or theists are taken aback by it. I.e. no matter who you are, it is hard to ignore the power of its message. (3) Although miracles are not in any way a central aim of the quran, there are descriptions in the quran of physical processess which are more than a millienia ahead of 7th century science (when the quran was revealed). It is hard to understand how a 7th century book could so accurately describe processes not understood until the the 19th and 20th centuries. (4) The message of all religions is universal: God is one, worship him alone and practice good morality. Even deeply idolatrous religiouns like hinduism claim that God is one, although that belief has been diluted through the ages. Some socioligists state that the universality of religions stems from a common human need to explain the mysteries of the universe and uncertainties of daily life with fantastic and supernatural causes. However, if so -- why is the claim that God is one so central to every religion? Sociologically, we can understand the invoking of individual dieties (gods and goddesses) for say rainfall, or a healthy child, victory in war, or other materialistic things -- but why the belief in a transcendent God who wants nothing from us and needs nothing from us? Other reasons (1) It is an interesting fact that no matter how entrenched an athiest one may be in normal life, when confronted with disaster -- say your plane is about to crash -- even the most diehard disbeliever becomes an ardent believer in God praying for his/her safety, etc. Amusing, huh?! There are a lot more reasons, but since i have to do some work now, i'll leave them for later. But essentially the reasons why people don't want to believe in god are the following Why people don't believe in God (1) They cannot believe in some guy up in heaven, who is periodiocally vengeful, angry, neglectful and even in a drunken stupor directing the world. Well, first of all as muslims (somewhat in contrast to christians and jews): we do not believe in such a God. Our definition of God is that: (a) he is perfect, never subject to human weaknesses (b) nothing like a human or creation. Although we believe that our best qualities like say compassion are divine and are in some sense a sampling of what is real compassion -- i.e. God's divine compassion, etc; (c) he is formless, not bound by space and time, and thus in some sense more a concept than something "physical"; (d) possesses all the superlative qualities, like: all knowledgable, all powerful, the all just, the all merciful, etc. (2) They accept that there might be something like an organizing principle behind the universe. But they are unable to believe that that such a principle/God should care about lowly beings like us who inhabit only the surface of a planet which is only a speck of dust in the vastness in the unimaginably large universe. Well as muslims we believe that: God is cognizent of all his creation, and hence cognizent of our affairs. He is not neglectful of anything, and thus not neglectful of us either. Hence, it is perfectly reasonable to expect God to "listen" to our prayers since he is aware of the state of all his creation. (3) Why should God have such human qualities such as compassion, etc? There seems to be no compassion necessary to run the universe. Again: we are his creation, and we possess qualities such as compassion. The creator is clearly more gifted than the creation -- hence if the created possess things like compassion, the creator must possess them in much greater measure. This is a kindof a circular argument. But, the point is: it is not ludicrous to believe that God possesses so called human qualities like compassion, because those qualities are really divine qualities -- and human compassion is really a reflection or a sampling of the real thing. (4) Bad things happen to people and cause them to disbelieve in a just God. If we possess freewill, as most of us would like to think, then bad things must be allowed to happen. If none of us possess free will, then it is clear that there is an agent predetermining everything -- i.e. God must exist. Hence, if you want free will, bad stuff must happen. Religion never claimed that the world is fair or just. It only claims that in the final analysis that God will make up for the injustice in this life with justice and mercy in the next life. Tell me if any of these points jive with you. Best wishes, -hyper |
| 11/03/03 at 05:20:39 |
| lucid9 |
| Re: How does one reply to, Where is proof Allah ex |
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| Abdussamed |
| 11/03/03 at 23:58:24 |
| [slm] I found this website. Maybe there is answer. http://home.arcor.de/ronaldstach/listentonur/23lema1.html [] |
| Re: How does one reply to, Where is proof Allah ex |
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| Aadhil |
| 11/04/03 at 15:06:00 |
| [slm] All, I have heard many athiests arguments about the Existence of Allah, and have found out that no matter how you reason with them they will always find an answer to it and stick to it (whether it makes sense or not.) This one guy told me that he believed that science ruled everyting. What he did'nt know was that he merely explained the how and not the why......To him it just happened. If there was no god then why has not some beast evolutionized and destroyed the whole place? The whole system would also go whacko. Every thing is supposed to be a certain way and trying to change that leads to disaster. Think about cloning and all its problems. Another thing is that how come life cannot be artificially created? It has been attempted but no one solved the mystery of the Soul. Finally I would like to say that I do not expect you to Buy my argument, and god decides (through his mercy) who will believe and who will not. Just like the Prophet's [saw] uncle who loved the prophet but would not convert because of his (The uncle's) social status. Every thing is in Allah's hands. [slm] [] [] [] |
| 11/04/03 at 15:09:48 |
| Aadhil |
| Re: How does one reply to, Where is proof Allah ex |
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| Fozia |
| 11/05/03 at 10:04:07 |
| [slm] Charlie, what if anything do you believe then, like where we come from our purpose, where we're going??? Wassalaam |
| Re: How does one reply to, Where is proof Allah ex |
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| bismilla |
| 11/06/03 at 07:39:32 |
| [slm] [quote author=Fozia link=board=madrasa;num=1067750164;start=10#13 date=11/05/03 at 10:04:07] [slm] Charlie, what if anything do you believe then, like where we come from our purpose, where we're going??? Wassalaam[/quote] That would be an interesting answer to read.... Insha Allah Here's a forward i got on email....a bit trivial to some but makes common sense me thinks... [font=comic SANS ms][color=lightblue]A man went to a barber shop to have his hair and his beard cut as always. He started to have a good conversation with the barber who attended him. They talked about so many things and various subjects. Suddenly, they touched the subject of ALLAH. The barber said : "Look man, I don't believe that ALLAH exists as you say so." "Why do you say that?" Asked the client. Well, it's so easy, you just have to go out in the street to realize that ALLAH does not exist. Oh, tell me, if ALLAH existed, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If ALLAH existed, there would be no suffering nor pain. I can't think of a ALLAH who permits all of these things." The client stopped for a moment thinking but he didn't want to respond so as to prevent an argument. The barber finished his job and the client went out of the shop. Just after he left the barber shop he saw a man in the street with a long hair and beard (it seems that it had been a long time since he had his cut and he looked so untidy). Then the client again entered the barber shop and he said to the barber : " know what? Barbers do not exist." "How come they don't exist?"-asked the barber. "Well I am here and I am a barber." "No!" - the client exclaimed. "They don't exist because if they did there would be no people with long hair and beard like that man who walks in the street." "Ah, barbers do exist, what happens is that people do not come to me." "Exactly!"- affirmed the client. "That's the point. ALLAH does exist, what happens is people don't go to Him and do not look for Him that's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."[/color][/font] [slm] |
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