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polygamy
confused
11/20/03 at 16:50:41
Assalaam alaikoom, I have been in a polygamous situation, and found it to be an horrendous experience. I am a practising Muslim, who takes my faith seriously, and I have always felt content with my faith, until this. I wish to ask a question for which I have found no answer.  Islam is regarded as the religion of the fitra, that is it is in completely in harmony with human nature.  Then why is it that most women cannot cope with polygamy?  If polygamy is a natural human state- then why is it women have not been created to accept it easily?   In the Quran, Allah has said that men and women have a similar human nature- if a man's wife should go with another man, he will go crazy and may even kill them both.  People will understand this kind of reaction as natural.  But when a man does this, a women will go through the same gamut of emotions, but she is expected to repress them, as this is his right! This constant repression of what are natural emotions creates a life of misery for the woman.  I know, it happened to me, I am divorced now, because I could not stand the hurt and humiliation anymore.   I get angry with muslims, particularly men, who think women who cant stand polygamy are somehow bad muslims, didnt Fatima go crazy when Ali wanted to take another wife?  I get angry when muslims call women arrogant for not accepting polygamy, or saying they are westernized. I regard these emotions as natural human feelings, especially if you really love your husband. Again, if polygamy is in accordance with the fitra, then why are women forced to suppress normal human emotions that men are allowed, nay encouraged to have?It does not feel in accordance with my nature!

Re: polygamy
Chris
11/20/03 at 17:13:37
Salaam First, I belive that the husband can only take anouther wife with the consent of his first wife, but someone with more knowledge had better verify that.  That said, I could not treat two wives eqally, let alone four, so I don't have a viewpoint to answer your question. And just why i answered, I don't know.... Adam

Re: polygamy
faith
11/20/03 at 21:58:30
[slm] I know you must be hurt and angry.  I am sorry about your condition, sister confused.  Before I go on, let me tell you where I'm coming from. I am not married, though inshaallah, one day it may happen, God knows best.  My parents have seperated because my father married #2 + many other bad things I do not wish to disclose.  In essence I saw my mom literally broke down, felt hurt and angry.    :'( :'( She felt betrayed, coz she was always loyal to him, in good times and in bad times.  Btw, this is after 27 yrs of marriage.   Her biggest mistake actually was that my mom loved my dad too much, to an extent that she once said, "I prayed to God not to let Him take away my husband before He takes me", thinking that she could not live without my dad. Through it all, I was her emotional support, and managed to convince her to attend Islamic classes.  5 yrs later, both our knowledge in Allah has incresed tremendously, and my love for Allah has increased 100 fold, and my mom's love for Allah has increased tremendously.  :) :) Being through all of this has made me realise that a person's love for Allah must take priority above a person's love for His Creatures, be it his/her spouse, children, parents.  My mom's biggest mistake was to love my dad above loving God, and Allah made all these things happen to set mom's and my priorities in order! What I am saying is this: it is a big mistake to love God's creations above loving God Himself.  I think you loved your ex-husband more than Allah, the same mistake my mom made.  Had you loved Allah more, perhaps you will be able to overcome your natural inclination for jealousy. Yes, it is natural for a woman to be jealous.  Sarah, the wife of Prophet Ibrahim (alaihissalam) , was jealous of Hajar.  A'ishah, the beloved wife of Prophet Muhammad  [saw], was jealous of Khadija who was already deceased.   If, inshaAllah, I ever get married, I pray to Allah to increase me in my faith, to take away feelings of jealousy if ever I have to share my husband.   Of course, I would not like to be #2, #3 or #4, but if I become the #1 of many, then this is how I have prepared myself mentally.   "Sami'na wa attaqna": We hear and we obey our Lord's commands. I hope I made sense to you, sister confused. May I suggest you to take the journey to know Allah better, and to love Him more than anyone else. Take care, :-)

Re: polygamy
sisterhood
11/21/03 at 10:16:25
[slm]wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu I would like to start by telling Faith how clever her post was. I have never really thought of it like that and would like to thank you for expanding my out look. Now I just wanted to add a few things to what Faith has said. First as we all know women are Jealous sometimes and we also know that that jealous is normal. We also know that the Prophets wives were jealous. However we also know that to be insanely jealous is not normal or Islamic. Abu Hurayrah reported that Allah's messenger  [saw]  said: "Beware of Jealousy for verily it destroys good deeds the way fire destroys wood." (Abu Dawood} Now Bilal Philips said that, "Jealousy and envy are among the most destructive emotions or feelings which a man may have." So I think that sometimes a woman get carried away with what truly is her nature for many reasons. I also think while she is in a state of jealousy Satan whispers to her and incites her jealousy more and more until it reaches a point that she is sick and miserable and makes those around her sick and miserable. So when we women begin to feel as if we have crossed the line and exceeded what is truly natural of jealousy then we must take steps to put ourselves in check and get a new and fresh prospective. The best way to do that would be to read Quran, make du'a and learn some of the du'a used for anxiety and such. Also to remember when this jealousy comes to you that this is the whispering of Satan and to quickly remembers Allah. And remember Satan this to create mischief and come between husbands and wife and maybe when we remember that we will not let the jealousy get the better of us. So my point is that it is perfectly normal to be jealous but when it begins to affect your marriage and life then it has gone beyond what is natural to something that is not natural. Just my perspective on the matter and I am looking forward to reading others as well. ;) Fee aman Allah, Amena  :-*

Re: polygamy
Fozia
11/21/03 at 10:33:13
[quote author=confused link=board=madrasa;num=1069365042;start=0#0 date=11/20/03 at 16:50:41] I get angry with muslims, particularly men, who think women who cant stand polygamy are somehow bad muslims, didnt Fatima go crazy when Ali wanted to take another wife?  I get angry when muslims call women arrogant for not accepting polygamy, or saying they are westernized. [/quote] [slm] I could be completely wrong, but didn't Ali (RA) consider marriage to Abu Lahab's daughter, which is why the prophet [saw] effectively forbade it??? I think Br adam has a good point, each wife is to be treated equally if a br. can't do that perhaps he should consider lowering his gaze, fasting and being content with the that which Allah has provided him. Wassalaam

Re: polygamy
sisterhood
11/21/03 at 10:42:35
[slm] wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu "I could be completely wrong, but didn't Ali (RA) consider marriage to Abu Lahab's daughter, which is why the prophet  [saw] effectively forbade it" I just wanted to say that this is in fact true and the Prophet forbade it not because Fatimah went crazy but because the Prophet did not see fit to have the daughter of Abu Lahab and the daught of RasoolAllah married to the same man. Fee Aman Allah, Amena

Re: polygamy
MIT
11/21/03 at 12:04:19
as-salaamu alaikum Is the issue polygyny itself, or is the issue that the husband was a rotter?
NS

Re: polygamy
confused
11/21/03 at 18:21:15
Assalam alaikoom, Thankyou for all of your replies. I agree with much of what you are saying, one should love Allah before anyone else.  I believe I do,  If my husband became an apostate, I would not of hesitated to leave him, I could never love someone who did not love Allah.  If my husband was a hypocrite, or committed haraam things, the same would be true. Jealousy is an emotion that comes upon you suddenly, like a fire rising up from inside and makes you temporary blind to all reason.  Believe me, it took all my strength to suppress it, and actually I never allowed this terrible emotion to make me act in a bad way.  I never said a cross word to his wife, or say bad things about her to the people, or tried to anything to break her marriage to him.  On the contrary, I repressed it, I prayed so much to Allah to help me to be patient.   My husband saw my very moderate reaction to his other wife as an encouragement to feel free about the way he behaved with her in front of me, or how he talked with her on the phone in front of me.  She herself behaved badly towards me, he never took action against her, and would just say-she is jealous of you- and dismiss it at that.  This in turn increased my jealousy, a feeling of being walked upon, humiliated and deeply hurt that she could act in such away and he would dismiss it.  This in turn made it more difficult for me to be patient, leading to great emotional out bursts against my husband.  Who then described himself as a dog between two bones. But after that he took greater care to protect my feelings. It seemed when I was patient, I was walked upon, when I became furious, I recieved greater respect.  But I do not want a marriage, where I have to scream and shout in order to be treated with a little respect.  I have gone from a nice patient person to an angry bitter woman.  I dont like myself very much anymore. I have a great sense of relief to be out of this marriage, I have now returned to the balanced person I was before. But for the first time I have doubted Islam,  that is the worst consequence of this, this doubt will not go away, I have lost my peace in my heart, and I want it back so much! Just to add, I have also read a hadith about Ali's proposed marriage to Fatima, that the Prophet (SAW) refused the marriage as he did not want to cause a fitna to Fatima in her religion. That's what it does, it causes fitna to you in your faith, as it has done to me.

Re: polygamy
onemuslimgirl
11/21/03 at 19:25:57
asalaam alakum everyone, I think that polygamy works for some people and not others. it doesnt make you a bad sister because you couldn't work in a polygamous situation. I think that it takes a strong brother to be able to be equal to both sisters at the same, and unfortantely, no matter how hard he tries, he will never be exactly equal. also, its sad, but alot of the brothers who go into these kind of relationships only want what benefits them, and do not worry about why polygamy was really made. how many brothers say "Oh there is this poor elder sister who has 4 children whose husband has died adn needs someone to take care of her adn her children. Let me help her"....no most of the brothers who take another wife take someone who is young, pretty, maybe wealthy, and will help them in one way or another. if polygamy was followed the way it is supposed to be it will help those who really need it. the prophet (saws) married older women who were widowed during wars in order to protect them and take care of them. most of them just needed someone to provide them with shelter and food, and would give up their days to Aisha (raa)...

Re: polygamy
AbdulJalil
11/21/03 at 19:44:01
Assalamu Alaikum i do not know if this will help, but the thing you have mentioned about fitrah is incorrect. Someone could say that in its natural state, left on its own, a nail would just grow and grow, and so the fitrah would be to just let it grow. But that is incorrect, and that is not the correct understanding of fitrah. It is God and the Prophet(pbuh) that define to us what is fitrah, just like it is God that defines to us what is "good"  and "bad". The definition of these words would vary to a lot of people. This is an question and an answer about what is really meant by  fitrah. This is from sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com) Question : I am very thankful I have found this site to ask questions about Islam and know I am receiving authoritve answers! In question 2425 you quoted a passage: “Five things are part of the fitrah: circumcision, removing the pubic hair, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails, and plucking the armpit hair.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 5441)        My question is : What is 'fitrah' ? I have never heard of this. Answer : Praise be to Allaah. Al-Tabari (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Tafseer: “Fitrah: the deen (way or religion) of Allaah.” Al-Tabari’s tafseer (commentary) of the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): “[Iblees said] ‘…and indeed I will order them to change the nature created by Allaah.’” [al-Nisa’ 4:119] Concerning the aayah (interpretation of the meaning), “So set your face steadily and truly to the Faith: (establish) Allaah’s handiwork according to the pattern (fitrah) on which He has made mankind: no change (let there be) in the work (wrought) by Allaah: that is the standard Religion: but most among mankind understand not.” [al-Room 30:30 – Yusuf Ali’s translation], it was reported from some of the scholars of tafseer that the phrase the pattern (fitrah) on which He has made mankind means the design of Allaah according to which He has created mankind. This word (fitrah) was also mentioned in the hadeeth narrated by Abu Hurayrah who said: “The Messenger of Allaah  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Five things are part of the fitrah: removing the pubic hair, circumcision, trimming the moustache, plucking the armpit hairs, and trimming the nails.” (Reported by al-jamaa’ah ) What is meant by these five things being part of the fitrah is that when they are done, this is in accordance with the natural pattern on which Allaah made mankind and urged them to follow, so that they will be better and more perfect… This is the ancient sunnah (way) which was followed by all the Prophets and which was enjoined by all the laws they brought. It is a natural and innate way. (Al-Shawkaani, Nayl al-Awtaar, Baab Sunan al-Fitrah).

Re: polygamy
AbdulJalil
11/21/03 at 19:58:14
Assalamu Alaikum By Dr. Zakir Naik Answers 1.       POLYGAMY             Question: Why is a man allowed to have more than one wife in Islam? i.e. why is polygamy allowed in Islam? Answer: 1.   Definition of Polygamy Polygamy means a system of marriage whereby one person has more than one spouse. Polygamy can be of two types. One is polygyny where a man marries more than one woman, and the other is polyandry, where a woman marries more than one man. In Islam, limited polygyny is permitted; whereas polyandry is completely prohibited. Now coming to the original question, why is a man allowed to have more than one wife? 2.   The Qur’an is the only religious scripture in the world that says,"marry only one".            The Qur’an is the only religious book, on the face of this earth, that contains the phrase ‘marry only one’. There is no other religious book that instructs men to have only one wife. In none of the other religious scriptures, whether it be the Vedas, the Ramayan, the Mahabharat, the Geeta, the Talmud or the Bible does one find a restriction on the number of wives. According to these scriptures one can marry as many as one wishes. It was only later, that the Hindu priests and the Christian Church restricted the number of wives to one. Many Hindu religious personalities, according to their scriptures, had multiple wives. King Dashrat, the father of Rama, had more than one wife. Krishna had several wives. In earlier times, Christian men were permitted as many wives as they wished, since the Bible puts no restriction on the number of wives. It was only a few centuries ago that the Church restricted the number of wives to one. Polygyny is permitted in Judaism. According to Talmudic law, Abraham had three wives, and Solomon had hundreds of wives. The practice of polygyny continued till Rabbi Gershom ben Yehudah (960 C.E to 1030 C.E) issued an edict against it. The Jewish Sephardic communities living in Muslim countries continued the practice till as late as 1950, until an Act of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel extended the ban on marrying more than one wife. 3.   Hindus are more polygynous than Muslims The report of the ‘Committee of The Status of Woman in Islam’, published in 1975 mentions on page numbers 66 and 67 that the percentage of polygamous marriages between the years 1951 and 1961 was 5.06% among the Hindus and only 4.31% among the Muslims. According to Indian law only Muslim men are permitted to have more than one wife. It is illegal for any non-Muslim in India to have more than one wife. Despite it being illegal, Hindus have more multiple wives as compared to Muslims. Earlier, there was no restriction even on Hindu men with respect to the number of wives allowed. It was only in 1954, when the Hindu Marriage Act was passed that it became illegal for a Hindu to have more than one wife. At present it is the Indian Law that restricts a Hindu man from having more than one wife and not the Hindu scriptures. Let us now analyse why Islam allows a man to have more than one wife. 4.   Qur’an permits limited polygyny As I mentioned earlier, Qur’an is the only religious book on the face of the earth that says ‘marry only one’. The context of this phrase is the following verse from Surah Nisa of the Glorious Qur’an: "Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one."                                  [Al-Qur’an 4:3] Before the Qur’an was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygyny and many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals justly with them. In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says: "Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women...." [Al-Qur’an 4:129] Therefore polygyny is not a rule but an exception. Many people are under the misconception that it is compulsory for a Muslim man to have more than one wife. Broadly, Islam has five categories of Do’s and Don’ts:        i.            ‘Fard’ i.e. compulsory or obligatory      ii.            ‘Mustahab’ i.e. recommended or encouraged    iii.            ‘Mubah’ i.e. permissible or allowed     iv.            ‘Makruh’ i.e. not recommended or discouraged       v.            ‘Haraam’ i.e. prohibited or forbidden Polygyny falls in the middle category of things that are permissible. It cannot be said that a Muslim who has two, three or four wives is a better Muslim as compared to a Muslim who has only one wife. 5.   Average life span of females is more than that of males By nature males and females are born in approximately the same ratio. A female child has more immunity than a male child. A female child can fight the germs and diseases better than the male child. For this reason, during the pediatric age itself there are more deaths among males as compared to the females. During wars, there are more men killed as compared to women. More men die due to accidents and diseases than women. The average life span of females is more than that of males, and at any given time one finds more widows in the world than widowers. 6.   India has more male population than female due to female foeticide and infanticide India is one of the few countries, along with the other neighbouring countries, in which the female population is less than the male population. The reason lies in the high rate of female infanticide in India, and the fact that more than one million female foetuses are aborted every year in this country, after they are identified as females. If this evil practice is stopped, then India too will have more females as compared to males. 7.   World female population is more than male population In the USA, women outnumber men by 7.8 million. New York alone has one million more females as compared to the number of males, and of the male population of New York one-third are gays i.e sodomites. The U.S.A as a whole has more than twenty-five million gays. This means that these people do not wish to marry women. Great Britain has four million more females as compared to males. Germany has five million more females as compared to males. Russia has nine million more females than males. God alone knows how many million more females there are in the whole world as compared to males. 8.   Restricting each and every man to have only one wife is not practical Even if every man got married to one woman, there would still be more than thirty million females in U.S.A who would not be able to get husbands (considering that America has twenty five million gays). There would be more than four million females in Great Britain, 5 million females in Germany and nine million females in Russia alone who would not be able to find a husband. Suppose my sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, or suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women in USA. The only two options remaining for her are that she either marries a man who already has a wife or becomes public property. There is no other option. All those who are modest will opt for the first. In Western society, it is common for a man to have mistresses and/or multiple extra-marital affairs, in which case, the woman leads a disgraceful, unprotected life. The same society, however, cannot accept a man having more than one wife, in which women retain their honourable, dignified position in society and lead a protected life. Thus the only two options before a woman who cannot find a husband is to marry a married man or to become public property. Islam prefers giving women the honourable position by permitting the first option and disallowing the second. There are several other reasons, why Islam has permitted limited polygyny, but it is mainly to protect the modesty of women. 2.        POLYANDRY             Question: If a man is allowed to have more than one wife, then why does Islam prohibit a woman from having more than one husband? Answer: A lot of people, including some Muslims, question the logic of allowing Muslim men to have more than one spouse while denying the same ‘right’ to women. Let me first state emphatically, that the foundation of an Islamic society is justice and equity. Allah has created men and women as equal, but with different capabilities and different responsibilities. Men and women are different, physiologically and psychologically. Their roles and responsibilities are different. Men and women are equal in Islam, but not identical. Surah Nisa’ Chapter 4 verses 22 to 24 gives the list of women with who you can not marry and it is further mentions in Surah Nisa’ Chapter 4 verse 24 "Also (prohibited are) women already married" The following points enumerate the reasons why polyandry is prohibited in Islam: 1.   If a man has more than one wife, the parents of the children born of such marriages can easily be identified. The father as well as the mother can easily be identified. In case of a woman marrying more than one husband, only the mother of the children born of such marriages will be identified and not the father. Islam gives tremendous importance to the identification of both parents, mother and father. Psychologists tell us that children who do not know their parents, especially their father undergo severe mental trauma and disturbances. Often they have an unhappy childhood. It is for this reason that the children of prostitutes do not have a healthy childhood. If a child born of such wedlock is admitted in school, and when the mother is asked the name of the father, she would have to give two or more names! I am aware that recent advances in science have made it possible for both the mother and father to be identified with the help of genetic testing. Thus this point which was applicable for the past may not be applicable for the present. 2.   Man is more polygamous by nature as compared to a woman. 3.   Biologically, it is easier for a man to perform his duties as a husband despite having several wives. A woman, in a similar position, having several husbands, will not find it possible to perform her duties as a wife. A woman undergoes several psychological and behavioral changes due to different phases of the menstrual cycle. 4.   A woman who has more than one husband will have several sexual partners at the same time and has a high chance of acquiring venereal or sexually transmitted diseases which can also be transmitted back to her husband even if all of them have no extra-marital sex. This is not the case in a man having more than one wife, and none of them having extra-marital sex. The above reasons are those that one can easily identify. There are probably many more reasons why Allah, in His Infinite Wisdom, has prohibited polyandry.
11/21/03 at 20:16:49
AbdulJalil

Re: polygamy
AbdulJalil
11/21/03 at 20:14:19
Assalamu Alaikum This is more on fitrah http://www.thetruereligion.org/fitrah.htm

Re: polygamy
AbdulJalil
11/21/03 at 20:28:03
Assalamu Alaikum This is another response (from sheikh Munajjid  www.islam-qa.com) .Question : What is the ruling on a woman hating polygyny because of jealousy, since jealousy is something natural in women, and we read of the jealousy of ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) concerning the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)? So where do we stand? I have learned from reading some books that hating one of the rulings of sharee’ah is tantamount to kufr. Answer : Praise be to Allaah. A woman’s jealousy concerning her husband is something that is innate and natural, and you cannot tell a woman, “Do not feel jealous over your husband.” If a person dislikes something even though it is prescribed in sharee’ah, that does not adversely affect him, so long as he does not hate the fact that it is prescribed. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Jihaad (holy fighting in Allaah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you…” [al-Baqarah 2:216] The woman who feels jealous does not hate the fact that Allaah has allowed her husband to marry more than one woman, but she hates to have a co-wife. There is an obvious difference between the two matters. Hence I hope that the brother who has asked this question, and other people, will think carefully about matters and not rush to judgement; I hope that that they will recognize the subtle differences whereby rulings differ. From the fatwas of Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen for al-Da’wah magazine

Re: polygamy
AbdulJalil
11/21/03 at 20:44:05
Assalamu Alaikum The wife can also stipulate in the marriage contract, that she would seek divorce in case her husband takes a second wife.  As you can see from the previous question, even Aisha(ra), the Mother of the Believers, had experienced jealousy, so i hope you don't let that affect your faith. Stipulations in Marriage Contract Hadith - Abu Dawud and AI-Hakim on the authority of Abi hurairah, Sahih Al- Jami AI-Sayhir, (No. 6714) Regarding contracts the Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: The rights are decided by the conditions. Hadith - Malik's Muwatta Book 28, Number 28.6.16 Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that Said ibn al-Musayyab was asked about a woman who made a stipulation on her husband not to take her away from her town. Said ibn al-Musayyab said, "He takes her away if he wishes." Malik said, "The custom among us is that when a man marries a woman, and he makes a condition in the marriage contract that he will not marry after her or take a concubine, it means nothing unless there is an oath of divorce or setting-free attached to it. Then it is obliged and required of him." Ibn Qudaamah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his book Al-Mughni: “If he married her on the condition that he should not make her move from her house or her city, then this condition is valid, because it was reported that the Prophet said: ‘The most deserving of conditions to be fulfilled are those by means of which sexual intercourse becomes permissible for you.’ If he married her on the condition that he will not marry another wife, then she has the right to leave him if he does take another wife.” In conclusion, then, the conditions of the marriage contract are divided into three types, one of which must be adhered to, which is of benefit to the wife, such as her being able to stipulate that he cannot make her move from her house or city, or travel with him, or take another wife or a concubine. He has to adhere to these conditions, and if he does not, then she has the right to annul the marriage.” [Al-Mughni by Ibn Qudaamah, part 7, Kitaab al-Nikaah] Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked this question and he replied in Al-Fataawa al-Kubra: “Question: a man married a woman and she stipulated that he should not take another wife or make her move from her house, and that she could stay with her mother, so he married her on this basis. Does he have to adhere to this, and if he goes against these conditions, does his wife have the right to annul the marriage or not? Answer: yes, these conditions and similar ones are valid according to the madhhab of Imaam Ahmad and other scholars among the Sahaabah and Taabi’een, such as ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab, ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas, Shurayh al-Qaadi, al-Oozaa’i and Ishaaq. According to the madhhab of Maalik, the condition states that if he marries another wife, (the first wife) has the choice of what to do, and this is a valid condition. The woman has the right to leave him in this case. This is similar to the idea in the Madhhab of Imaam Ahmad. The basis for this is the hadeeth narrated by (al-Bukhaari and Muslim) in al-Saheehayn from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): ‘The most deserving of conditions to be fulfilled are those by means of which sexual intercourse becomes permissible for you.’ ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab said: ‘Rights are in accordance with conditions.’ The Prophet dictated that the conditions which make sexual intercourse permissible are more deserving of fulfilment than others. This is the ruling on conditions of this nature.” [al-Fataawa al-Kubra, part 3, Kitaab al-Nikaah]. The noted scholar Ibn 'Uthaimeen has stated: It is the right of the woman to make stipulations at the writing of the marriage contract as she wishes and if these stipulations do not contradict Islamic law then the husband must fulfill them. For example, that he not marry a second wife and that if he does to dissolve the first marriage. This is not a problem. However, a new prospective wife cannot stipulate that the first wife be divorced before he marries her. I must say however that a first wife should not make such a stipulation that her husband not marry a second wife. I fear that if a woman makes this stipulation that the husband will, if he desires to marry a second woman, simply divorce the first one straight away [i.e. not even give her consideration] and it would no be to her benefit. Therefore I advise the woman not to make such a stipulation because this may be a manner by which the husband is able to follow a good sunnah.

Re: polygamy
confused
11/21/03 at 20:49:24
Dear Abdul Jalil Assalaam alaikoom This last answer you have given is the best answer I have heard yet.  I hate polygamy, and when people(including my ex-husband) tell me I am not a muslim because of that, although I know I believe in Allah, then I wonder if Islam is the religion of the fitra, and my emotions, which I feel are natural, are regarded as being against Islam, then naturally I feel doubts about Islam, how it cannot acknowledge that women have feelings like men. Fitra as I am given to understand means the natural instinct- and Islam is in copmlete accordance with the natural instinct. Jealousy is a natural instinct, it is not something you intend, it just happens, without warning, and can be difficult to control.  The nature of women is similar to that of men. The law of Lissan was revealed in the Quran after some men approached the Prophet(SAW) and asked what they should do if they caught their wife with another man, because their sense of ghayra(jealousy) would make them kill them.  I did not read that the Prophet(SAW) told them not to be jealous, in fact a man in this situation who would not be jealous would be very strange indeed.  Well women are similar to men in nature, so how can we be expected to tolerate something, that no man ever could, unless there was something inherrently wrong with him?

Re: polygamy
AbdulJalil
11/21/03 at 22:10:23
Assalamu Alaikum Correct me if i am wrong: Basically you are saying jealousy is a sin, and sinning is against the fitrah, therefore we are not born upon the fitrah? is that it?

Re: polygamy
faith
11/22/03 at 04:14:21
[slm] dear sister confused, i can 'see' that you are angry, hurt and saddenned by your experience in polygyny.  But now you are questioning God's wisdoms why He allows this Law to His servants.   Perhaps you are blinded by anger right now, and what ever we may be able to say to explain God's Wisdom may not be satisfactory to you right now.  InshaAllah, with time, you will be able to understand the reasons for allowing polygyny.   You must know that Allah doesn't create a thing without a purpose, just as Allah doesn't let something happen without a reason.   Sometimes, it is us humans who are not wise enough to understand His Wisdom, why things happen, what's the  purpose, etc. On another note, from the way you have described how your husband treated you, it was not right for him to disregard your feelings.  He was also wrong in his actions.  Polygyny comes with more responsibilities for the man.   I pray that you will not give up on Islam or Allah.  I pray that you take your new 'freedom' to learn more about Allah. InshaAllah, with hindsight, things will look clearer to you.

Re: polygamy
Fozia
11/22/03 at 07:09:13
[slm] Women bear children, men don't. So in the case of multiple husbands it would be difficult to pinpoint who the father was. I think confused (and this is completely my opinion), your relationship with your ex was not the best example of polygamy. I read once somewhere (don't ask where I never remember my sources ::)). There was once a man with two wives, oneday both came to him and asked which one he loved most. He told them he would give them both an answer in a few days. Later when alone with each wife he seperately presents both a ring each. A few days later he calls both wives to him, and says you asked me who I loved the most, the one I love the most is she who has the ring..... Both wives went away satisfied. I'm guessing the failed polygamous marriages fail because the husband is not careful about the feelings of his wives. Men really should consider their spouse's feelings before taking such a step, just because one can do something doesn't mean one has to. I don't think confused your faith is incomplete because you have been hurt by your experience and are angry, just don't let your anger colour you vision of Islam. I think mainly the issue of polygamy is quite cultural too, I haven't actually come across it more than once in my entire life within my own social circle, and even then people look askance at the man. As for women having more than one husband.... Allah knows we are far too sensible to desire something quite so insane... can you imagine the washing, the cooking, the cleaning, the nursing when they're all dying with the common cold.... ::) Wassalaam

Re: polygamy
confused
11/22/03 at 10:48:14
Dear Abdul Jalil, assalaam alaikoom This is not quite what I am saying. I'm saying that jealousy is a natural instinct, whether in men or women.  If any man or woman's partner goes with another, you will be hard pressed to find anyone who would be 'OK' with this.  Natural instincts are from pure fitra- which is in accordance with Islam.  If a woman cannot tolerate polygamy why is she censored by others for feeling that way.  It does not mean she doesnt believe in Allah, or that she is arrogant, westernized or all the other insults usually men throw at women. By the way most muslim scholars say that a man does not need the permission of the first wife to take another wife.  In Egypt men have been given permission to take another secretly, as most women would never give such permission. Also, some scholars say that a wife has no right to stipulate in her marriage contract that her husband can not have another wife- as this undermines his rights.  Also, I am a revert, at the time of my marriage, no one informs you of this right, I have no muslim father or brother and from what I have heard, women who try to assert such rights are seen as trouble makers. If a man was only allowed to take a wife in case of a great shortage of men, or to marry widows with kids, or because his wife was insane,cant have kids and so on, I would feel such a marriage had a noble cause behind it, but actually men can take another for any reason at all, as long as they do justice in terms of time and money. But every wife will feel, as I did, that if your husband marries another, it means he no longer loves you or is disatisfied with the marriage, or wants some sexual variation.  It is very hurtful, women are not stupid, they know their husband is going to prefer the younger,prettier wife to you.  Do you have any idea how painful it is to love a man who loves and prefers someone else, that you no longer believe anything he says to you, that he is only saying it to keep your mouth shut, when he gives you a gift, he has given her the same, and so he only give you the gift as a duty, but gives her the gift out of love? If polygamy was restricted to just particular reasons, to help women and children, for their protection and to provide for them, I dont have any problem with that- but that is not the case.

Re: polygamy
onemuslimgirl
11/22/03 at 11:23:32
asalaam alakum Sr. Confused, My heart is breaking for you so much right now, and I am making duaa that Allah sends you a wonderful brother inshAllah soon! I can feel for what you are saying, as I know a family that went through the same thing in our community like yours. I will not go in to details because there are too many people in my community that come here. But i will tell you this, the brother did not treat the two wives equally, but in fact he really really hurt the first one. Well, subhanAllah, Allah never forgets anyone. After about a year the husband lost his job, and many other bad things started happening in his life. His first wife  just kept saying hasbi Allah wa na'ma al wakeel. Allah will take her rights for her. Actually sr. confused in some circumstances when polygamy is done correctly by the husband, the two wives become good friends and their is no jealousy between them, especially when the two wives treat eacch other Islamically, which you say your co-wife was not. Jealousy is a natural thing,  and do not ever let ANYONE tell you  that you are not Muslim , NO ONE has that right. Only ALLAH can judge who is Muslim and who is not. One last thing before I leave...the whole reason polygamy is hard here in America and other countries is because society has raised us to believe that is it is not right. In places were polygamy is practiced freely, women see it as a natural thing and do not think twice about it.  and these places are not just by Muslims, but other religions too.

Re: polygamy
ampbreia
11/22/03 at 13:13:55
I am not Muslim, so this doesn't apply to Islam so much as to simply polygamy in relation to human nature in general.  While I think it would be okay, even beneficial in the case the wives love each other as much as they love their husband, I don't feel okay about it otherwise.  Two things in particular really bug me about it. 1. I really love my husband a lot, but I want his full attention and love in return or I would feel that my love is wasted on him.  I will NOT share him with another lover/woman.  If he insisted I do so, it would be equivalent to him saying that I was not sufficient to him and, therefore, my presence in his life was of no consequence.  THAT would leave me feeling unfulfilled.  Likewise, if I took another lover in addition to him, HE would feel left out in the cold.  If either one of us needed someone else, then obviously we are not suited to one another. BASHING ISLAM POST DELETED. This is your 2nd warning, one more and you will be deleted from the board! Your lies and baseless attacks against Islam will not be tolerated here.  Your welcome to ask questions, don't make assumptions and attack Islam.
11/22/03 at 14:47:31
bhaloo

Re: polygamy
Fozia
11/22/03 at 14:11:53
[slm] Ummm unlimited number fo concubines.... define concubine please. Relations with a woman outside wed lock is forbidden. Yes he can have a slave. BUT taking a free woman or man as it happens as a slave is forbidden. Yes the husband can refuse to divorce a woman BUT a muslim woman living in an Islamic country has full rights to take her case to court she can be divorced that way, I actually know of a woman who did this, she got her divorce too... perhaps you are mixing up your religions this is not allowed of Jewish women. A husband has to satisfy a woman's sexual needs as it happens it's her right as it happens..... Confused how did your husband happen to come across his second wife?? Wassalaam
11/22/03 at 14:16:04
Fozia

Re: polygamy
Maliha
11/22/03 at 14:26:27
[slm] you never cease to amaze me ampbreia with the skillful way that you mix up a fraction of the truth with loaded lies to suit your own delusions about what Islam is and is not. What makes you an authority on polygamy, Islam and what the rights of women are in this religion??!!! You can not keep projecting your misfortunes with a cultural version of Islam, to keep making your point to the whole world that Islam is messed up, and everyone in their right mind would leave this amazingly beautiful way of life. why don't you try to leave your baggage at whatever doorstep you came through, and try to unveil your eyes and unshackle your heart of this irrational hate you feel?  This post is very personal, cuz first i don't understand why you are here, blowing out this nonesensical hot air, when obviously your intentions are *not* to learn...are you trying to get buyers for your disparaging book on the "damsel in distress" and the "monstrous" version of Islam you seemed to have  conjured up in your mind??!  All i can say is don't waste your time, because as Illogical as it seems to you, Droves of People are embracing the Divine Essence of Life, and droves more are submitting to their Creator, despite the measly energy you put in to spew out hate. Have you stopped to consider that a billion plus and more  are not all stupid and delusional and you might actually be on the wrong side of this equation? To address your amazingly distorted points: a) Women in a purely Islamic nation *are* allowed to work and take care of themselves...the Mother of the Believers Khadija (RA) was a strong business woman who was very successful, and still remains the ultimate example of nobility, grace, and stateliness in our hearts and minds. b) Men are *not* allowed to have concubines at ALL. c) Women are allowed to seek divorce without the man's permission and without even a "good" enough reason..i think you are confusing the long winded western divorce proceedings with the simple way Islam facilitates this process...We are not *chained* to our spouses..and although divorce is the most detested in Allah's eyes it is permitted. d) Polygamy has existed through out time, what Islam did was simply restrict it, and put the conditions that will facilitate the well being of all that are involved. To date, polygamy exists in many cultures throughout the world..and whether we debate on the "need" for it or "unfaireness" of it is irrelevant..what would you rather have? the western way? Where you proclaim so called monogamy and the masses of married men AND women are out floricking in contemptous adultery and killing each other and their children with blind rage, misplaced passions and sick cycles of baseness? e) All the reasons provided against polygamy seem to circle around the issue of "feelings"...Allah's Wisdom reigns in a place far above our fleeting world and its constructs...What we may "feel" inclined to, may actually be harmful to us and vice versa. I don't question Allah's Wisdom, for I see the rights of women are actually safeguarded more in a polygamous context that is conditional upon her safety and well being, rather than a rampantly promiscous society where she will be exposed to the indignity of being a mistress, diseases, and the festering sickness of the soul that emanates from these really sick societies. f) Whatever your so called misconceptions are of Muslim men, I don't care about, for I have a loving husband,  and grew up with many brothers in a society that forever made me feel nurtured, protected and treasured to be the precious pearl that I know Allah created me to be. Again my advice to you is you may have the so called infamy now of being the spokesperson against Islam, but with time all these accolades will fall apart and you will Face Allah with nothing but your soul....you have the power to either purify it, or bring about its baseness and destruction...Death is around the corner for all of us, I will be very careful how I choose to use my next breath. [wlm]
11/22/03 at 14:47:07
bhaloo

Re: polygamy
AbdulJalil
11/22/03 at 14:59:57
Assalamu Alaikum confused, now i see what you are saying. Your concerns are basically about how people are practising polygamy,and how people  perceive women who do not want to have polygamous husbands.  This is more about the abuse of polygamy, and how it is being practised, rather than polygamy itself. You said : "By the way most muslim scholars say that a man does not need the permission of the first wife to take another wife.  In Egypt men have been given permission to take another secretly, as most women would never give such permission. Also, some scholars say that a wife has no right to stipulate in her marriage contract that her husband can not have another wife- as this undermines his rights.". Well, even if some scholars do not agree on such stipulations, it really does not change the fact that a woman in a purely islamic state could still divorce, by initating the divorce. It would be called  Khula' Divorce. (I am assuming you know about it). So not putting these stipulations will not affect the right of a woman to seek a divorce. This is why it is very important to talk to the brother before marriage about the possibility that he might take a second wife. I am not assuming that you did not. If you do not want to be in a polygamous marriage, then that is your choice, and Islam give you  that choice. If you marry a  pious man of his word, he will assure you that he is not interested in polygamy. If he is TRULY pious, he will keep his word. And God tell the husband to be considerate to his wife: "...But consort with them in kindness, for if you hate them it may happen that you hate a thing wherein God has placed much good." (Qur'an 4: l9). Islam recognize that a woman can be jealous, but that should not become an obsession. I think the reason why in western societies polygamy is seen negatively,is because the media, and the whole society tell a  woman, that the ultimate goal of this life is to find "romantic love". They elevate romantic love to some sort of god. Women become obssessed with love, romance, etc.  There is nothing wrong with love, and romance, but the problem start when you put these things before God, to the point where they become obssessions, and the ultimate goals of your life. As someone pointed out, if you look at other cultures, polygamy is natural. But why is that? It is partly because they do not obssess over love, romance, etc. True love is love for God, not created beings. If you had grown up in another culture, i am pretty sure you would not feel the way you are now.
11/22/03 at 15:05:30
AbdulJalil

Re: polygamy
confused
11/22/03 at 15:18:20
Dear Fawzia, Assalaam alaikoom, My ex-husband met his other wife at work.  They worked for the same company(in different offices).  He met and married her without my knowing and suggested I spent a few weeks out of town with friends, whilst he honeymooned with her(again without my knowing) and he told me when I got back, after which he brought her to live in my house, as he said they hadnt found a place yet!  Like an idiot, I agreed.  This did not happen here, but in his country.   Quite frankly it was like being hit between the eyes with an iron bar, but even after that I tried my best to be patient, but as I said before it became intolerable. I feel there is a total lack of respect for the woman's sense of self esteem and dignity.  A woman's feelings don't even seem to matter.   And for the lady who said that feelings are not important- I do not think you are qualified to say anything until your husband does the same to you.  It seems men's feelings are, they seem to be allowed to feel very possessive of their wives, but women are not expected to be the same way.  But the feelings of men and women are the same, I think polygamy is oppressive to women, they are expected to suppress very difficult, natural emotions, which can even lead to psychological problems such as depression. Again, if his other wife and been some poor destitute widow with kids that he sought to help, the charitable spirit inside of me would maybe even of encouraged him to do so.  But does he have to marry her to help her? But men can marry another for any reason. I would never allow my daughters to be involved with such a system, just to go through what I've been through. I also know of so many cases of severe abuse, there is very little regulation of polygamy where it is allowed, it is left to the caprices of the man, the only option for the woman is divorce and this is not so easy for her to do as she may risk losing her children if she does, as custody is given to her husband once the children reach a certain age and she must then face the further indignity of her children being raised by her husband's other wife, who may hate her, and was the cause of the destruction of her own marriage.  As a result, many women feel forced to stay in terribly humiliating and hurtful marriages for the sake of their children. I was clever, I came here with my children for a holiday, then stayed and divorced him from here.  But I am hiding behind non-muslim laws in order to keep my children, if I handed them over to him, as the sharia requires, then I have to also face the further hurt of a woman who hates me, taking care of my children. I am glad I am English and I had a means of escape, but many women dont and my heart cries out for them.

Re: polygamy
jannah
11/22/03 at 15:27:45
[quote author=confused link=board=madrasa;num=1069365042;start=10#18 date=11/22/03 at 10:48:14] I'm saying that jealousy is a natural instinct, whether in men or women.  If any man or woman's partner goes with another, you will be hard pressed to find anyone who would be 'OK' with this.  Natural instincts are from pure fitra- which is in accordance with Islam. [/quote] People also have the natural instincts of greed, envy, hatred, arrogance, hypocrisy and anger. These are all within us as well. Are they in accordance with Islam??  Not everything fitrah is according to Islam because if it was then human beings could be just left alone. The reason Islam was sent was to guide our natural insticts whether good or bad to what is right. Because only Our Creator would know exactly what is best for us. Our opinions are quite limited as we are the creation. [quote] If a woman cannot tolerate polygamy why is she censored by others for feeling that way.  It does not mean she doesnt believe in Allah, or that she is arrogant, westernized or all the other insults usually men throw at women. [/quote] If you cannot tolerate it for yourself that's your opinion and that's fine. But the Deen of Islam is wiser than any one person's opinion and is open and permissible for times and circumstances when something is needed. [quote] By the way most muslim scholars say that a man does not need the permission of the first wife to take another wife.  In Egypt men have been given permission to take another secretly, as most women would never give such permission. [/quote] I've never heard of the fatwa of taking a wife secretly. In fact in all the schools "secret marriages" are haram and are considered invalid. [quote] Also, some scholars say that a wife has no right to stipulate in her marriage contract that her husband can not have another wife- as this undermines his rights. [/quote] Some scholars also say it is valid to stipulate whatever you want within lawful things. So you can put a clause that If he wants to marry another wife that is his right but that would be breaking his contract with you and you may have an automatic divorce. [quote] Also, I am a revert, at the time of my marriage, no one informs you of this right, I have no muslim father or brother and from what I have heard, women who try to assert such rights are seen as trouble makers. [/quote] Sorry to hear that. You should have had a Wali that was your representative in the marriage to make sure nothing "shady" was going down. [quote]If a man was only allowed to take a wife in case of a great shortage of men, or to marry widows with kids, or because his wife was insane,cant have kids and so on, I would feel such a marriage had a noble cause behind it, but actually men can take another for any reason at all, as long as they do justice in terms of time and money. [/quote] How do you know it's not a noble cause? Maybe it is one. And even if it's for 'sexual' reasons as it's always accused then at least he isn't divorcing/cheating/dumping his first wife-- which he could easily do in any other religion.   Just because some people abuse a thing that's given permisibility -- that doesn't automatically make it a bad thing. People marry for all kinds of reasons. I mean think about the reasons why anyone marries -- for love.. to fulfill needs, to have a family etc.. same reasons would apply for a second marriage. [quote] But every wife will feel, as I did, that if your husband marries another, it means he no longer loves you or is disatisfied with the marriage, or wants some sexual variation.  It is very hurtful, women are not stupid, they know their husband is going to prefer the younger,prettier wife to you.  Do you have any idea how painful it is to love a man who loves and prefers someone else, that you no longer believe anything he says to you, that he is only saying it to keep your mouth shut, when he gives you a gift, he has given her the same, and so he only give you the gift as a duty, but gives her the gift out of love?[/quote] wow personal rant there. i think this is your own insecurities talking. [quote] If polygamy was restricted to just particular reasons, to help women and children, for their protection and to provide for them, I dont have any problem with that- but that is not the case.[/quote] Again just because some people abuse something it doesn't make it invalid or 'bad'. There would be ALOT more problems if polygamy was not allowed in Islam. You just can't think narrow-mindedly with only your emotions/problems. In making a law Allah has to do it for all people in all times and for the protection and harmony of everyone, the individual, the society, men and women. second post: [quote]   My ex-husband met his other wife at work.  They worked for the same company(in different offices).  He met and married her without my knowing and suggested I spent a few weeks out of town with friends, whilst he honeymooned with her(again without my knowing) and he told me when I got back, after which he brought her to live in my house, as he said they hadnt found a place yet!  Like an idiot, I agreed.  This did not happen here, but in his country.  [/quote] Again this secret marriage thing is pretty wack. That just doesn't make any sense. [quote] I feel there is a total lack of respect for the woman's sense of self esteem and dignity.  A woman's feelings don't even seem to matter.  [/quote] Just because your husband was wack doesn't mean it has anything to do with Islam.  Islam gives women self-esteem and dignity. [quote]I think polygamy is oppressive to women, they are expected to suppress very difficult, natural emotions, which can even lead to psychological problems such as depression.[/quote] Again your personal opinion. You may not be able to handle polygamy but other women can and are very happy with their situations. [quote] Again, if his other wife and been some poor destitute widow with kids that he sought to help, the charitable spirit inside of me would maybe even of encouraged him to do so.  But does he have to marry her to help her?   [/quote] It's interesting that you keep bringing up that it would be OK if it was for noble reasons.  Yet for some reason you think all men have evil, debased intentions for marrying again.-- and therefore pologamy should be outlawed.?? [quote] But men can marry another for any reason. [/quote] So can women. [quote] I would never allow my daughters to be involved with such a system, just to go through what I've been through. [/quote] Just because you had a messed up situation doesn't mean it would occur again. It also doesn't have anything to do with Islam. So it is sad that you would deny your daughters the path to truth and happiness. [quote] I also know of so many cases of severe abuse, there is very little regulation of polygamy where it is allowed, it is left to the caprices of the man, the only option for the woman is divorce and this is not so easy for her to do as she may risk losing her children if she does, as custody is given to her husband once the children reach a certain age and she must then face the further indignity of her children being raised by her husband's other wife, who may hate her, and was the cause of the destruction of her own marriage.  As a result, many women feel forced to stay in terribly humiliating and hurtful marriages for the sake of their children. [/quote] This is true. People are leaving the regulations of Islam and abusing Islam in every way. We have to work to change that. [quote]I was clever, I came here with my children for a holiday, then stayed and divorced him from here.  But I am hiding behind non-muslim laws in order to keep my children, if I handed them over to him, as the sharia requires, then I have to also face the further hurt of a woman who hates me, taking care of my children. [/quote] The shariah does not require you to hand over your children. Maybe if you went to court you would get a fair judgement. BTW did you ever think from his point of view that you instead kidnapped your children and are keeping them from him? [quote]I am glad I am English and I had a means of escape, but many women dont and my heart cries out for them.[/quote] i'm not sure what your being English has to do with anything. Islam gives women rights and equality. The fact that people abuse this in our messed up world today doesn't have anything to do with the original teachings of Islam. If we were able to practice shariah in totality... including the laws, court system, etc the world would be a MUCH better place and indeed you yourself might have been able to get justice.
11/22/03 at 15:42:27
jannah

Re: polygamy
Fozia
11/22/03 at 15:32:00
[slm] Sr. Confused, it seems from this end of the computer your ex husband has behaved in a manner reprehensible in Islam. What exactly was he doing meeting and marrying someone at work?? This is what I meant when I said men should practice lowering their gaze. You are not leaving the boundaries of Islam by being jealous either, he is sayign it to justify his own actions. Being with a non-mahram is not allowed, if he has to work with women he should lower his gaze and behave in a business like manner. I also happen to think the sister is to blame too Assuming she knew of you. Polygamy is allowed in Islam and that is enough for me, however never having been there that's easy for me to say. Having said that I must add that, personally I could never trample over the pieces of a sisters broken heart.... Sr. if you consider it once you have had time to come to terms with this experience I think you may see that it's not Islam that you are raging against but your husbands behaviour and also his second wife's. Remember as one person has posted, what goes around comes around, have faith in Allah. To him we belong to him we return, may Allah grant you something even better than that which you have lost. Love & Du'aas Wassalaam

Re: polygamy
se7en
11/22/03 at 15:35:33
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah, Hmm.. you know I recently came across the website of an individual who rejects the hadeeth as a source of Islamic law.. it was interesting to read his reasons for doing so.. He said that the hadeeth are on the whole inauthentic because they rely solely on the 'he heard this person saying they heard that person' type of transmission which is obviously flawed.  He also said that, basically, growing up in his Muslim community, the hadeeth he heard and read were very misogynistic, and that he just didn't feel that the hadeeth fit into his understanding and picture of Islam.   I think that two issues emerge with this individual, just as two issues emerge in this thread: -- the legitimacy, reliability, or authenticity of the item in question (in his case hadeeth; in this case, polygamy) and -- an individual's personal feelings of apprehension or distaste for it, that stem from their understanding and/or experiences. First of all, I think an idea that we sometimes overlook is that an objects legitimacy, authoritativeness, or authenticity is *independent* of anyones personal feelings or perspective about it.  So in the case of hadeeth, if we are truly looking to discern their veracity and authenticity, we need to take on a scholarly methodology and scrutinize, analyze, and study the history and the texts, withholding our personal opinions about them for the time being. If this individual in question did this, they would find that the hadeeth are actually subjected to some rigorous scholarly analysis and  that hadith criticism is a far more complex science then many of the uninitiated assume.  And as a Muslim, one who believes in the essentiality of the Sunnah to imbibe the divine message of Islam, once I know a hadeeth is authentic and that it was truly spoken by the words of the prophet Muhammad [saw], I accept it as divinely inspired instruction. The same is necessary for polygamy.  Again, we need to take on a scholarly methodology and scrutinize, analyze, and study the history and the texts, withholding our personal opinions about them for the time being.  And again, as a Muslim, once I know that a belief or practice is authentic and divinely sanctioned, then I accept it. However, obviously, as human beings we have an inner comportment, a mind, personality, perspective and inclinations, that are based on an interaction between our biological and spiritual make-up and our experiences and knowledge.  So there will obviously be times when we come across something in the deen that does not fit with our own understanding, that we struggle with, the wisdom of which we really have to work to discover and uncover. As Muslims, our acceptance stems from our firm belief that Islam is true; and that Allah, in His infinite wisdom, prescribed its structure in exactness and perfection.  Part of my inner struggle in perfecting and deepening my faith is seeking to come to terms with all aspects of Islam, by learning and studying more, and perhaps moving beyond my own personal experiences. [quote]Islam is regarded as the religion of the fitra, that is it is in completely in harmony with human nature.  If polygamy is a natural human state- then why is it women have not been created to accept it easily?   [/quote] Hmm.. Islam brings people into re-aligment with their natural desire to worship the Divine.  Within its bounds, Islam permits certain types of human behavior, and it prohibits other types of human behavior.  From the Shari'ah perspective, we understand that all laws in Islam are based on the preservation of five things: - protection of an individual's morality and religion - protection and maintenance of human life   - protection of an individual's intellect - protection of an individual's progeny - protection of an individual's property rights There are perhaps countless things that are permissible, required, or recommended in Islam that people do not like or do not feel comfortable with, or have a hard time accepting.  For example, the complete prohibition of homosexuality.  Or the obligation of wearing the hijab.  There may be some men that are not happy with the idea that their wives and children have rights over their wealth.  (There are scholars who say that if a man does not provide sufficiently for his family, his wife has the right to take money from him without telling him!)  I'm sure there are men who are not comfortable with the idea that they will also be taken into account for the actions of their 'flock' - their wives and children.   but the Qur'an says, [color=black] "[...] And it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you --  Allah knows but you do not know." 2:216[/color] [quote] In the Quran, Allah has said that men and women have a similar human nature- if a man's wife should go with another man, he will go crazy and may even kill them both.  People will understand this kind of reaction as natural.  But when a man does this, a women will go through the same gamut of emotions, but she is expected to repress them, as this is his right!  This constant repression of what are natural emotions creates a life of misery for the woman.  I know, it happened to me, I am divorced now, because I could not stand the hurt and humiliation anymore.   [/quote] Actually, the Qur'an does not say that men and women have the same nature.  It actually says quite clearly in Surah Ali'Imran, "... and the male is not like the female". But yes, gheerah, or protectiveness or jealousy, is obviously not limited to men.   And nowhere in Islam does it say that a woman must subject herself to torture and countless days of inner turmoil and misery, if she is someone with a lot of gheerah and does not want to be part of a polygamous marriage.   Islam does not make polygamy incumbent on its followers.  It is simply something that has been made permissible.  And simply because something is permissible does not mean it is rewarding in all situations (especially in cases where it subjects individuals to this type of pain and suffering).   However, sister, you should not extend your *personal* experience to every woman who is involved in a polygamous marriage, throughout the last fourteen hundred years of history, in many diverse social and economic contexts. Every woman has a right to consent, and if she does not consent to such a marriage, or she is unhappy with it she has every right to seek a divorce.   I agree that it is wrong for men to dismiss women who have a difficult time with polygamy - but at the same time, I dislike very much the way comments are being made in this thread towards polygamy, dismissing it as something wrong, evil, or unfair to women.  There is a difference between holding *personal* hesitancy or distaste for something, and rejecting it as something outside of Islam or something that you believe should be removed from it.  The latter is an implication that you feel that the divine law is wrong, imperfect, and that somehow you know better than God.  This is obviously not a position any Muslim wants to take. Ampbreia -- you still haven't responded to my post on the Shari'ah.  Here you are once again talking about how the Shari'ah is cruel and unusual punishment, and yet you have not backed up this oft-repeated claim anywhere.  Once again you make an interesting mix of cultural norms and Islamic practices, combining them all into one package and submitting it as what Islam "really" is.  Bring your proof, otherwise your words will be dismissed as the typical anti-Islam rants from someone obviously misinformed.
11/23/03 at 06:34:41
se7en

Re: polygamy
AbdulJalil
11/22/03 at 15:42:19
Assalamu Alaikum I will just add that it is the right of a wife to not live with the second wife. This is a condition for polygamy: Ibn Qudaamah said: The man does not have the right to make his two wives live together in one house without their consent, whether they are young or old, because that causes them harm due to the enmity and jealousy that exists between them, so making them live together provokes arguments and fighting, and each of them can hear sounds when he is intimate with the other, or she can see that. But if they agree to that then it is permissible, because they have that right but they are also allowed to forego it. Al-Mughni, 7/229. You said: "if I handed them over to him, as the sharia requires, then I have to also face the further hurt of a woman who hates me, taking care of my children. " In general, the sharia gives more rights to a woman for the custody of a child. So i don't see why you are saying that the sharia would require you to hand them over.

Re: polygamy
confused
11/22/03 at 15:54:04
Dear Abdul-Jalil, The country in which I was living gives custody to the mother until the children reach 7 years of age, after which custody goes to the father. Secondly, as a foreigner there, if I divorced him, I would of had no choice but to return here, as I could not stay there alone and he would never of allowed me to leave with his children. I would rather die than allow a woman who hates me and has been the cause of so much destruction for me to raise my children

Re: polygamy
confused
11/22/03 at 18:43:53
assalam alaikoom I actually did not intend to come on this website to go on and on about what happened to me. I do understand that I cannot condemn polygamy based on my own personal experience.   I really want to discuss the point which is bothering me. Someone has said in the post that the Quran does not say that men and women have similar natures. This is incorrect- it does- And from amongst his signs is that he has created mates of a similar nature to yourself so that you may find rest in them- I think there is no doubt that men and women have similar natures, the same things make us laugh, or sad,or shocked or angry or whatever. I have read hadith that condemns men if they know their wives are unfaithful and dont do anything about it, I've read hadiths talking about men's sense of gheerah(self respect or jealousy) it seems to be something to be commended.  Women also have a sense of gheerah- and are also generally regarded as more emotional than men.  How can then it be expected for women to cope with polygamy.  Maybe if you are indifferent or dont love your husband than you can cope.  I've met many women in polygamous situations, some 1st wives, some second, even one third.  I've never met someone who is a fourth wife.  They mostly said the same- it is very very difficult, and a constant cause of conflict.  The one who was a third wife, was quite OK with everything, but thats because she told me that she had little expectations of the marriage anyway, and never allowed herself to love her husband, and really only married for financial security. One set of two co-wives first told me what great friends they were, how everything was fine, that you just get used to it and so on.  About a year later I heard that one of them divorced her husband.  You get the impression that on the surface they want to give the impression that its all wonderful, when its not, maybe they are afraid of being looked at as bad muslims, I dont know.  I havnt met any successful polygamous situation- maybe there are. What all of this tells me is that polygamy is very difficult for most women, and maybe a few can cope, but as someone said, surely rules are made with the whole society in mind, not just for an individual or small minority. Someone has compared jealousy to greed and envy.  They are not the same thing-as men are expected to have gheerah in respect to their wives, but it seems woman are not in respect to their husbands. The usual defence of polygamy is that it prevents men from committing adultery, the example of western countries where men take mistresses and so on. I do not see how you can use sinful behaviour to justify something.  After all women also commit adultery, and who are all these women men are comitting adultery with?  It's like saying we should let paedophiles marry children, to stop them molesting children.  Many muslim men have one wife and do not commit adultery, this is because they are good men.  Many non-muslim men have one wife and `o not commit adultery, the same goes for women.  That's because all these people have good morals.  Polygamy doesnt stop adultery.  Men like the idea of having sex without responsibility, they would still rather commit adultery then take on the responsibility of another wife.  That's because they are immoral men. Yes maybe muslim men would rather take another wife without dumping the first one- but actually she commonly gets dumped within the marriage, and is kept on just as a caretaker for her children.  She lives in a condition where she is unloved, everything done for her is out of duty, and divorce as I have said before may be a very difficult thing for her to do. Yes, maybe you see a man's desire for sexual variety a noble cause, well maybe a woman may desire sexual variety, does that make it OK for her to sleep with another man.  Maybe her husband has grown fat, disinterested, but she cannot go and take another.  Women stick it out, what is wrong with men that they cant do the same? No, I am not suggesting that a women should have more than one husband, I dont think that's right either- and not because you wouldnt know who the father is of the kids- we have DNA now so that would solve the problem.  But because marriage is about trust, loyalty, supporting each other, respecting each other. The lady who came on here before spoke about concubines.  I think she is referring to a man's right to have sex with his female slaves.  Well slavery doesnt exist now, but in the case of war, female captives can be kept as slaves and a man can have sex with them. This gives a man potentially a very large sexual licence, the problem is, as a man's sexual licence gets bigger, his wives get's smaller.  A man with 4 wives only, means his wife only sees him every 4 days, her sexual licence is reduced, not to mention the fact that when a man is only around every 4 days, its very difficult to get any sense of continuity,  especially for children . Polygamy may have its place in times following wars where there is a vast reduction in men- in fact it was in these circumstances in which the ayats talking about polygamy were revealed.  But polygamy is not restricted to that- I think it is very problematic, a very real cause of conflict(as each party involved has to be OK-if even just one isnt-the whole thing falls apart) and it doesnt stop adultery-immoral men will still commit adultery to escape responsibilty.

Re: polygamy
se7en
11/22/03 at 23:16:34
as salaamu alaykum, by 'nature' I was referring to their comportment and their biological and psychological nature.  yes they are *similar* in nature, but the Qur'an does indeed say there is a distinction between them.  Sorry, I got the surah wrong before, but please see Surah 3, ayah 36.  or for some further elaboration on this issue, you can read an interesting article by Abdul Hakim Murad here: http://www.islamfortoday.com/murad07.htm I think this will be my last post in this topic as you are simply re-iterating the same points that you made earlier. point 1 :  it is a difficult and emotionally traumatic experience for women to engage in a polygamous relationship. Response:  Polygamy is an *option* Islam has left open, and has not been made obligatory on anyone.  Seeing as no one here can speak for fourteen centuries of women, in any one of a number of different cultural, economic, and social circumstances, I do not think it is fair for you to make this sweeping assumption, even though you know a handful of people who have shared the same experience as you. point 2:  In permitting polygamy, Islam allows men sexual freedom without accountability and the ability to misuse and abuse women as sexual objects. Response:  Polygamy actually has many restrictions attached to it that prevent this from occuring.  People abuse the insitution of polygamy for their own base desires and inclinations, just as people do with any one of a number of things made permissible for human beings. I do not mean to offend you by saying this but : I know that you have had an extremely negative experience with your ex-husband.. perhaps you are placing blame on the institution, when it should be placed on the individual. Please take some time to read over my original thread in this topic.. I spent a lot of time on it and would appreciate it if you spent some time reflecting on the points I've made. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah.
11/23/03 at 06:35:36
se7en

Re: polygamy
confused
11/23/03 at 07:44:56
Dear Se7en, Assalaam alaikoom Thus will also probably be my last post as well For your comments on the first points you have made, my observations have not been made on a handful of people I've met,there were quite a few actually, I have also done research on the subject which shows that marriage breakdowns are extremely common in polygamous situations, that abuse is widespread and in fact it is probably truer to say that only a minority of polygamous situations are successful. For your second point, the only conditions laid down for a man to fulfil is to do justice in time and money and fulfil his wife's sexual rights, though he is not obliged to sleep with each wife the same number of times.  Men who are God fearing do their best to fulfil their duties, but even they struggle, for who can live constantly having to watch every single thing they say or do, in case they say or do something one of the wives will percieve as unfair?  Those men who are not so Godfearing are the ones who freely abuse polygamy, seeking a divorce maybe extremely difficult for a woman, and quite often these men know that she is trapped and so do what they like.  It is very difficult in some countries for women to seek legal redress, she may have to depend on her family to talk to him, if she is not near her family, or has no other family, she feels defenceless and powerless.  I agree that all these problems may be due to the mess the muslim world is in, but then is it not better to withdraw such rights under such circumstances? Polygamy is one of those things that when you read about in theory it seems very reasonable and in fact a beneficial force for women, but the reality in todays world is very different in deed.  It's mostly become a force that harms and humiliates women at many different levels.  Ordinary polygamy is very difficult and requires a lot of effort on the part of ALL parties, polygamy abuse is abominable, but the truth is that it is widespread.  Should men still be allowed this right in today's world? where the quality of muslims is not as it should be, where mysoginistic attitudes prevail throughout the muslim world?  Should so many women keep suffering only to be told-well its bad- but in a real Islamic state such a thing wouldnt happen?  Do we have to wait for that? Polygamy is an option-its true- but do you know of how many women who enter it based on the theoretical polygamy they have read in books, and then after tasting the reality of it, realize what a terrible mistake they have made, and then have to face the repercussion of that? Anyway, you could all be right, it maybe that my doubts about Islam have been caused by people, not Islam.  But is it right that a muslim should be driven to the point of apostasy because of muslims?  Should men of today be given such a right that can cause such a fitna,because most men today are simply not good enough to practise polygamy as it should be? Is this not a case for withdrawing this right.  For I am not the only case, believe me, my story is not uncommon.

Re: polygamy
Fozia
11/23/03 at 14:10:55
[slm] Also my last post on  this thread. It is not down to us to re-write Allahs laws.... We can see what kind of effect that had on those before us. Think about it. Wassalaam

Re: polygamy
timbuktu
11/23/03 at 20:34:03
[slm] [quote author=confused link=board=madrasa;num=1069365042;start=30#32 date=11/23/03 at 07:44:56]But is it right that a muslim should be driven to the point of apostasy because of muslims?[/quote] i hope you do not mean what this sentence suggests. should a woman be a muslim only so that she can have a man all to herself? why don't you see polygamy or mistreatment by a husband, or other unpleasant things in your life, as tests of faith? When you are out of this situation, why should you react in a manner that will hurt you in the afterlife? i think your situation was a test. & i know of many others with worse tests than this, but they have not given up Islam.
11/23/03 at 23:06:19
timbuktu

Re: polygamy
onemuslimgirl
11/23/03 at 21:58:34
asalaam alakum timbutu, yes, it was a test, and yes there are probably people who have gone through worst tests, but let us not forget that this sister is hurt, and sister I can understand your feelings. Please do not let someone like your exhusband make you lose your afterlife, your akhera. Know that this is a test, and alhamdullah you were able to survive it, and know that Allah will reward you with something a 100 times better than what you have lost. You will get a wonderful husband inshAllah, and it will be worth the struggle you went through inshAllah. just think to yourself, this ex-husband of yours is the one who should be worried because he misused his religion, and hurt you and your kids. he is the one that has to answer to Allah why he mistreated you and was not fair to you. I know you said that you will not reply anymore, and i am not writing to get a response from you. I am just writing to let you know that we feel your pain, and we are praying for you that you will get rewarded soon inshAllah. take care of yourslef and we hope to hear good news from you w'salaam.

Re: polygamy
jannah
11/24/03 at 01:46:44
[wlm] Was wondering if you could give us the data of your research. Like how many people, how you made the determination in the end that "marriage breakdowns are extremely common in polygamous situations, that abuse is widespread and in fact it is probably truer to say that only a minority of polygamous situations are successful.". Because anyone who doesn't like polygamy can come and claim that. For that matter anyone who doesn't like monogamy can come and show the 50% divorce rate and show the statistics on domestic abuse in general and make a case too!!  So I mean to do a real study you have to take into account all the circumstances, stuff going on, you need a control group and you need to be able to test it somehow. So I'm sorry but I just think your "study" is a little too subjective. Again all I hear is your rant about how some men might abuse the system. Sorry to break it to you but men abuse monogamy too and dating and just about everything else.. .AND in every religion and faith group. God gave us the permissibility for polygamy if there is an ijmah consensus of scholars that right now in our particular circumstance polygamy is more harmful to humans and goes against the intended practice in Islamic law then it would be different. However they don't say that and right now the people who choose polygamy can practice it rightly and are doing fine. Islam is not just theory. It's practice. Wouldn't our Creator know what would harm us and what would benefit us? Why would God send down laws that were not applicable or practical? Again your arguments towards 'banning polygamy' are that people abuse it.  That just isn't a valid argument let alone logical. You said "But is it right that a muslim should be driven to the point of apostasy because of muslims?" A person may apostate for any reasons but on the Day of Judgement they can't blame anyone else for it. It's their choice and only they will be judged on their own actions. No one will carry the burden of another. So if you want to apostate because you don't like how some people abuse something allowed in Islam, honestly it's your decision. Because Islam is clear, it's all there, it's the truth and what is good for humanity and a guidance for all peoples in all times and places. Whether people abuse that or follow that is not going to be a good excuse if you ask me. If you want to reject that it's your choice.   I mean if we were christian you are coming here saying -- because i was once abused by a christian man, and since in all these other marriages i know  women are abused, I therefore think Christianity is wrong and should be changed.  ??? quite a leap? "my story is not uncommon" Sounds pretty common to me unfortunately.. woman abused and scorned and now hates the man and all he "represents".. it's happenned, a lot actually... who's to blame?  the bad muslim men? society? muslim countries? i don't know... but it certainly has nothing to do with Islam so let's make the distinction clear.
11/24/03 at 01:49:24
jannah

Re: polygamy
superFOB
11/24/03 at 05:14:35
[slm] To the confused sister ---------------------------- I was really saddened to hear of your trials and many of the things you mentioned can not be denied. I can relate to your predicament since I have witnessed similar situations in my immediate family (I am sure many of us have). On the other hand, I can not claim to be in your shoes. Every person has her own shoes to wear and her own trials to persevere through. Considering your background and upbringing, you should not have been in a polygamous situation in the first place, imho. In fact, being the cause of a lot of fitnah, polygamy has been publicly advised against by many eminent scholars in Pakistan. But, this advice does not and can not invalidate the permission from Allah (swt) and is only a fatwa for the times we live in. Sister, I saw the 'A' word in your post and thats what prompted this post. Even thinking about apostasy is a great sin in itself, my sister, and you must turn around. See, all of us have a great deficiency. We don't have the greatness of Allah (swt) in our hearts (myself being the top deficient), that how great He (swt) is. What is Allah (swt) we don't know, although we all know what is not Allah (swt). We do not know how absolute and complete His power and control is. Although we would claim to know all of this, but trust me, we don't. The relationship between Allah (swt) and His ceation is very clear. We are only the slaves of Allah (swt), nothing more. Allah (swt) has made it very explicit that we are all beggars, all of us, and He alone is Ghani. He tests whomever He wishes and He grants favors to whomever He wishes. He is not in need of us, in any way imaginable or unimaginable. He demands nothing except complete submission from His slaves. But He is the most kind, most merciful. He does not test more than one can handle. Case in point, nobody was tested more than the Anbiya and they were the best of mankind! We must strive with patience through our trials and have a belief that is unshakeable. Imho, in this age of correctness and isnaad, we have lost sight of the forest for the trees. There is just way too much stress on correctness and almost no stress on the main theme, i.e., knowing Allah, His attributes, His mercy, His compassion. Allah (swt) Himself says that His zikr gives tranquility to the hearts. Now who is saying this? The Creator Himself! We all know in our hearts how much belief we have on this. Now the question is where to start? The best way to strengthen our imaan and remove the doubts is to make effort on our 'ibaadah and work on our zikr skills. Reading up on the trials and tribulations of the Prophet [saw] and the sahabah (RA) is also one of the tried and true imaan boosters. The Prophet's [saw] test at Taif is the most amazing account one can ever read. His [saw] dua after the incident defies description, makes me cry every time. Fits any calamity that can befall anyone in any time and place. You can find it here: http://www.alinaam.org.za/fazaail/saw.html I apologize if I offended you in anyway. General comment ---------------------- After reading through this thread I googled for apostasy and guess what I found? The net is awash with fatwas on why and why not to kill an apostate! I couldn't find a single website that details how to deal with someone who has become an apostate or one who even contemplates it. Sure there are a few words thrown around non chalantly on the need of advising the doubters but nothing concrete is there. We are talking about a sister contemplating apostasy here people. Lets take timeout from the fatwas and extra-correctness for the sake of saving someones aakhirah. This is a very dangerous ground many of us are treading on. Again, no offence intended.
11/24/03 at 05:31:16
superFOB

Re: polygamy
lucid9
11/24/03 at 07:36:20
[slm] Sis, stop freaking yourself out about not liking polygamy.  It's totally natural.  Which woman would like it?  And don't worry about people guilt tripping you about not liking it.  This is the tactic of narrowminded people -- they always try to make you feel like a rubbish muslim for a question you might ask, or a totally natural inclination which you feel.   Now note two things: (1) NONE (as far as i know) of the prophet's daughters were ever in a polygamous marriage.  NONE! And the prophet expressly forbid Ali (ra) from marrying while Fatima (ra) was alive.  The prophet did not want polygamy for his daughters -- and thus he shared in certain aversion to it.  True he was very polygamous in his nation building state -- but in his natural state -- i.e. during the first 25 years of marriage -- he was totally monogomous. (2) There is an old arabic proverb:  The dunya and the akhirah are like two women in a polygamous marriage -- when you please one, you displease the other.   The point is: you don't have to like polygamy.  Historically, it has always played the role of stop gap measure and not been something to be terribly proud of (except in certain circumstances).  I.e. guys who can't control themselves and are desperate to aquire lots of mistresses enter into a formal contract of marriage with other women  In this case, those desires are satisfied in a regulated environment.  And there chance of getting involved in "other" stuff is limited.   I.e. the guy isn't always doing stuff with the maid, or prowling the streets at night, or visiting brothels and clubs when he's traveling because he  can't satisfy himself in a halal way because he's away from his wife. I mean polyamy  has its special place and circumstances-- and for most of us those special circumstances don't exist  such that we should accept it when it happens to one of us, or put up with it.  And if  troubles your faith, or  makes you doubt, then simply get out of it.  Nothing is worth assaults on your faith.  Remember the authentic hadith (at-tirmidhi, an-nasai who rated it: hasan) of the prophet: "da' ma yuribuka  ila ma la yuribuk" Leave that which makes you doubt for that which does not make you doubt. (also in the 40 hadith of nawawi collection) There are people who like to say that polygamy is the prophet's sunnah, and say it is to be encouraged.  But as we know the prophet himself was not a total fan of it (although given the circumstances of certain companions -- he encorouged them to marry mulitple times).  And we know that the children of polygamous marriages are often damaged or emotionally deprived in some way.   So there is no way -- unless your aim is to increase the muslim population -- that it is genuinely the prophet's sunnah and that it is to be encouraged.  The exceptional man and wife can make polygamy work, but for most of us it is  pretty much a non-starter., and to be encougaged only in special circumstances. With best wishes [slm]
11/24/03 at 07:47:01
lucid9

Re: polygamy
confused
11/24/03 at 11:52:17
Dear Onemuslim girl, I was not goimg to continue sending post, but I felt I would keep trying. I thankyou for your kind words, I feel you are a very kind hearted sister, ma'shallah. I want to try to explain something- although I am not interested in remarriage, at least not at the moment, I know if I do, then my ex-husband has the right to take my children from me.  There is a hadith which says that a woman has rights to custody unless she re-marries.  My family is not muslim, so they would have to go to him.  This would not happen, as I would not let it, But this would be against the sharia again. I took my children away from him to this country-some may say kidnapped- if I divorced him there, he would of had rights of custody.  How can I bear after what has happened, that my child should be with my ex-co wife? My ex-husband said many times to me that how could I be a muslim, if I wasnt going to accept his right to have his other wife.?  If I got angry with him about the way he was dealing with me, he would ask me-Where is your Iman? This is all making me feel like a really bad muslim,also that I am turning to non-islamic laws to keep my children.  Would it be fair after all that happened, that he should then take my children, who I love to pieces and give them to  my ex-co-wife? It says in the Quran that if you judge by any laws apart from Allah's laws than you are no better than a disbeliever. But I cannot submit to handing over my children, not after all that's been done to me, and my children. I feel like a hypocrite.  I feel so confused.

Re: polygamy
Fozia
11/24/03 at 12:17:19
[slm] Gotta say it never ceases to amaze me the number of people who profess to know my standing with Allah (swt). Wassalaam

Re: polygamy = correction
timbuktu
11/24/03 at 14:14:11
[slm] some correction/ addition to my post. & please I do not have the exact words: some women came to the prophet (saws) & promised that they would act according to the laws of shari`a. but the prophet (saws) added "say, to the best of your ability". ........ ...... Allah (swt) says HE will forgive every sin except "shirk" if man comes to him with repentance (tauba)
11/26/03 at 08:34:21
timbuktu

Re: polygamy
muslimah853
11/24/03 at 14:32:11
[slm] <b> A person may apostate for any reasons but on the Day of Judgement they can't blame anyone else for it. It's their choice and only they will be judged on their own actions. No one will carry the burden of another </b> While this is true on one level, that does not absolve individual Muslims and/or the community of Muslims of any sin in the matter.  If in fact, we as individuals or as communities are giving people a bad taste in their mouths because we are not practicing Islam the way we should be, then we will have something to answer for as well.  Obviously, Muslims behaving badly are a test for the individual who runs across them, and no one can be responsible for the choices of another, but if I lie, cheat and steal, and thus give others the impression that the way of the Muslims is to lie, cheat and steal, then I can't be let off the hook by saying that I'm not answerable for their decisions.  Sometimes there is enough blame to go around. I think that this thread reminds me of something that tends to bother me a bit about how Muslims react sometimes to awful Muslims...that is we tend to respond to people with "Islam's ideal is..." For example we will say that "Islam gave rights to women unheard of 1400 years ago....blah blah blah" but not really dealing with the fact that some Muslim women *are* in fact oppressed in the name of Islam.  And until we really fess up to that and take steps to change it, our diatribes about what the ideals are will remain a joke  (I do understand that most on this thread acknowledged that her ex  apparently behaved in a bad way).   No, I know Allah doesn't condone it, and I know what the ideals are.  Unfortunately the reality is, in maybe more cases than we'd care to admit, light years behind that ideal.  Interestingly enough, part of the wisdom, and Allah knows best, in Allah's sending prophets is that you can talk ideals all day, but people need a real live example of how to be for the teaching to become effective.  We can talk about mercy until we're blue in the face, but very few people will really grasp that concept unless they've *seen* mercy.  The sahaba accompanied the Prophet,  [saw], they watched him live his life, and they learned much from his live example.  If all you've seen is a bad example, it's very difficult for the average person to separate the ideal from the (seemingly) overwhelmingly real reality.  Which is why one sees over and over again people who grew up in abusive homes, with alcoholic parents, or what have you, this is why so many, probably most end up continuing the destructive cycle in spite of the fact that intellectually they very frequently understand that it's wrong. Sister Confused, I would like to say to you that I feel your pain.  I don't know what your circumstances were, only Allah knows best.  Situations regarding child custody are rarely that cut and dry, and Islamic law recognizes this.  I know the hadith, but most rulings in shari'ah take into account a number of pieces of evidence--and a just judge would take all of the evidence from the texts *and* your individual circumstances into account if your case went before a court.  A woman who was married to a man who was an alcoholic or child molestor, or didn't pray or something---this would be taken into account in the court of a just judge when deciding.  Life isn't always black and white, there is plenty of grey and al hamdulillah, Islamic law is not unsophisticated in this regard.   Don't let anyone tell you that you did the wrong thing, or that you're a kidnapper, particularly if they aren't a qadi and/or don't know all of the intricacies of your situation.  Allah alone knows best whether you did the right thing. Please understand that what others have said is true...ie that no person is worth losing your akhirah over.  I understand that what you have gone through is indeed painful, but Allah heals all of these wounds, simply give yourself some time and focus on the spirtual health of you and your children.
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